Why is Charlie Rose hugging Seth Klarman?

Israel/PalestineUS Politics
on 192 Comments

An Interview with Seth Klarman and Charlie Rose from Facing History and Ourselves on Vimeo.

Check out this video from November 1 in New York. Seth Klarman is a big hedge fund manager and philanthropist. He’s never been on the actual Charlie Rose show, but Rose interviews him at an event for Klarman’s organization that fights anti-Semitism, called Facing History.

At the end of the interview, Charlie Rose hugs Klarman. And that hug is the heart of the problem in our liberal media culture.

Seth Klarman seems to be a good liberal. Martha Minow, dean of Harvard Law School, is on Facing History’s board. Klarman’s wife Beth gives money to Barack Obama, Barbara Boxer, and Barney Frank. The Klarman Family Foundation (with an annual budget of about $40 million) gives tons to hospitals and arts organizations, the ballet, Shakespeare, Big Brother, Planned Parenthood, and NARAL. It has also given money to public television. I bet that Charlie Rose’s show is getting support from Klarman– or that Rose is seeking money from him, and that’s why he’s doing this interview.

But being a liberal philanthropist is just one side of Klarman. He is also an Israel lobbyist who is just as rightwing as Sheldon Adelson, the casino owner who supports the Republican Party.

Klarman gives money to settler groups: the Central Fund of Israel,which pays for settlers’ “security needs” in the occupied West Bank, and Ir David, which is digging up East Jerusalem and displacing Palestinians. He gives $1 million in a year to Birthright, the program to send young American Jews to Israel to fall in love with the Jewish state. He supports the rightwing propaganda organization, the Israel Project (he’s on their board), gives big money to the Friends of the Israeli Defense Forces, and to top it off, Klarman is chairman of the board of the David Project, the group that has targeted Arab and Muslim intellectuals on college campuses. 

Klarman epitomizes the foreign-policy crisis of the liberal Establishment: he supports every traditional liberal cause at the same time as he is a rightwinger on Middle East policy. And he’s hardly alone. I’ve written about other big liberal philanthropists who swing right on Israel here.

And Charlie Rose knows this. Just ask him! He is dependent on such sources for funding, and the price of that support is not criticizing Israel. Or keeping that criticism faint.  

At Minute 40 or so in the video above, Charlie Rose says “Israel is under siege like it’s never been since 1948” and then flatters Klarman about his commitment to Israel. And Klarman tells Charlie Rose that the rise of criticism of Israel is like the rise of Nazism:

I am scared of this moment in history. When you look at the history of anti-semitism… hatred of Jews has shifted to hatred of the Jewish state… When Israel is singled out like no other country….[it recalls the] slow march of Hitler. [There is a] steady march in the world, from college campuses to the U.N. People would love to dismantle the Jewish state…. When Israel is singled out, when Jews are singled out, it’s absolutely terrifying…

When people ask why Debbie Wasserman Schultz, the Democratic National Committee chairwoman, is to the right of Mitt Romney and Rick Perry on aid to Israel, it’s because Klarman is not alone, the Democratic Party relies on rich conservatives like Klarman. It is because the heart of liberal east coast philanthropy–the same people who endow halls at Princeton and Yale-– also are paying for 81 Congress people to go to Israel last summer, more than to any other country.

When people ask why Barney Frank is afraid to come out publicly against settlements until 5000 Jews in his district take such a stand, it is because he gets support from the Seth Klarmans of the word.

When people ask why Barack Obama changed his mind about settlements, the Seth Klarmans of the world are the reason. Obama is mobbed up with the same people that Charlie Rose is mobbed up with, people who back Barney Frank and Martha Minow. Obama is good friends of Martha Minow.

Seth Klarman gives lots of money to educational institutions. His brother teaches at Harvard Law School. And here is Klarman paying for Harvard Law students to go to Israel–with support from New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft, a big funder of Israeli hasbara in the west: 

March 19, 2010: A delegation of Harvard Law students is visiting Israel this week as part of a ten-day America-Israel Friendship League (AIFL) educational mission to Israel.

This is the second year AIFL is cooperating with the Harvard Law Jewish Students’ Association and Professor Alan Dershowitz to send future lawyers on a seminar to Israel. The mission was made possible thanks to the generous support of the Combined Jewish Philanthropies and contributions from Mr. Robert Kraft and Mr. Seth Klarman.

Here is Klarman in the Boston Herald, saying that Israel has nothing to do with the unending conflict in the Middle East:

In a recent New York Times [NYT] op-ed, Turkish President Abdullah Gul wrote that, “The plight of the Palestinians has been a root cause of unrest and conflict” in the Middle East. This remark brazenly advanced a dogma that has been decisively discredited by recent events in the Arab world. It is now time to relegate it to the dustbin of history.

And here is Klarman writing that Jews are under siege, and there’s a conspiracy afoot to demolish the Jewish state.

In the West, “Palestinianism” — the notion that an innocent, indigenous people suffers a senseless, cruel oppression by the Jews of Israel (who ought to know better) threatens to become the standard view. It is the basis for an attack by Western radicals on Zionism, Jewish national self-determination, and by extension on Jews everywhere.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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192 Responses

  1. Sin Nombre
    November 30, 2011, 10:37 am

    I believe we ought to be relieved Charlie just hugged the guy. If you ever watch him interview any of the liberal elites there always seems the danger that he’s going to actually get down on his knees, crawl over behind ’em and start asking how their posteriors acquired such diverse and wonderful characteristics in addition to all their other previously explored greatnesses.

    And the funny thing is it’s so genuine. I don’t think it’s consciously about money for Charlie; he’s just genuinely, pathetically in thrall of the in-crowd. And in turn they love him for his backside-smootching productions.

    So at any rate I don’t think it’s a matter of one hand washing the other. More like … on tongue laving the others.

    It really is striking; so much so you can actually feel embarrassed for Charlie. He’s like a little puppy, and there seems to limit to what he’ll happily lick.

    Good thing Charlie and those he adores are so classically modern liberal/Lefties with their sensibilities forged in the Sixties. I.e., so … Cong. So … rejecting of The Establishment, man…

    • Dan Crowther
      November 30, 2011, 11:03 am

      I agree with you here sin nombre – rose and his ilk ( thinking of tim russert and others) just love being in “the know” and hanging out with the “cool kids” – as long as you have power and influence, Rose is happy to fellate you and your causes…..

    • Chu
      November 30, 2011, 11:07 am

      yeah, woof, woof. I don’t think there is a boot out there, that
      Charlie wouldn’t lick, and he indeed seems to crave Israeli boot.

      Bill Moyers gave him his start in the media world. I wonder
      what Moyers thinks of Charlie now?

  2. Jeff Klein
    November 30, 2011, 10:39 am

    Thanks, Phil. This is brilliant and goes to the crux of US-Israel politics. Until there is a real and open split within the self-identified Jewish community in our country it is hard to see how the Zionist domination of all levers of US political power will be undermined. Figures like Klarman — and their money — need to be repudiated by people of good will. And the vast majority of US citizens who do not want our government “occupied” by a foreign power will have to wake up and speak out. When this will be is hard to predict, but a start would be to hold our media accountable and to focus on the cost — political and financial — of our subservience to Israel. When will we see a nationwide political poll asking whether people support annual US aid to Israel of upwards of $3 billion, while programs people want are facing cuts at home?

    • Dan Crowther
      November 30, 2011, 11:01 am

      hey jeff!

      just finished “to the finland station”, great recommendation.

      Agree with you here, great post.

    • Bill in Maryland
      November 30, 2011, 11:41 am

      Thanks Phil for a great post, and Jeff, I couldn’t agree with you more. Bring on the “real and open split”, and the sooner the better. Go Rebecca Vilkomerson!

      • Philip Weiss
        November 30, 2011, 11:45 am

        i agree with this. jews have a need to stick together, that history has engendered in them. i think it’s anachronistic and mailer said that hitler’s great triumph was making jews completely selfish, but still there is that need; and the incredible beauty of JVP is that it answers that jewish desire in a universal space. it allows me, an integrating jew in the american scene, to speak of jewish matters openly, but with a strong jewish community behind me. so i am really grateful to JVP

      • Mooser
        November 30, 2011, 12:10 pm

        “jews have a need to stick together, that history has engendered in them”

        It’s not about sticking together, and I think you know it. It’s about who gets to be the boss.

      • eee
        November 30, 2011, 12:10 pm

        Except that JVP is Jewish just because they call themselves Jewish. But they are not accepted by the larger Jewish community and their fate will be just like Jews for Jesus. The Jews for Jesus crowd also believe they have “Jews” behind them. But in the end, the fact they have the word “Jews” in their name did not help them. The Jewish community does not view them as Jewish and so it shall come to pass with JVP.

        With 50% of the Jews of the world in Israel and with the percentage growing, any organization that does not respect Israeli voices and interests, will not be able to say it is Jewish. No one needs to like Netanyahu, but any Jewish organization must respect the fact that he is the democratically elected leader of Israel’s Jews. JVP does not see the Israeli government as legitimate. They are basically saying that what 50% of the Jews elected does not matter. How can one be part of the Jewish community with such attitude?

      • Dan Crowther
        November 30, 2011, 1:05 pm

        eee says:

        They are basically saying that what 50% of the Jews elected does not matter. How can one be part of the Jewish community with such attitude?

        I wasn’t aware that Netanyahu got 100% of the vote in Israel.

        “The Jews for Jesus crowd also believe they have “Jews” behind them. But in the end, the fact they have the word “Jews” in their name did not help them.”

        Might we one day be saying the same for “Zionist Jews”?

      • Mooser
        November 30, 2011, 1:32 pm

        “organization that does not respect Israeli voices and interests, will not be able to say it is Jewish.”

        ROTFLMSJAO!!! Hilarious! What are you gonna do, punk, publish a list of “de-Jewed” organisations and individuals? And when an organisation or individual is declared “de-Jewed” by, (well, by who? The Israeli State? The Israeli Ministry of Jewing and de-Jewing?) what, exactly will they lose, except the desire to send any money or good will to Israel?
        Of course, I can’t discount the idea that being declared Jewy-non-grata by Israel will lead to chastisement and punishment by God. Is that what you have in mind, “eee”
        Oh, he’s too funny! I know, Israel will declare certain individuals and Jews “out” and then forbid Israelis to communicate with them. That’ll show ’em.

      • Woody Tanaka
        November 30, 2011, 1:46 pm

        “Hilarious! What are you gonna do, punk, publish a list of “de-Jewed” organisations and individuals?”

        C’mon, Mooser. The Pope published his list of banned books (the Index Librorum Prohibitorum) for 400 years. Pope eee is just expanding it to include groups. His delusion of papacy rolls along…

      • Avi_G.
        November 30, 2011, 1:50 pm

        Philip Weiss says:
        November 30, 2011 at 11:45 am

        i agree with this. jews have a need to stick together

        Do you see, Phil? I may be nitpicking, but this again goes to the heart of the problem.

        Jews are not a special species of human beings, regardless of history, past or present.

        Adherents of Judaism just happen to be a minority in the world and like all other minorities on the face of the planet they tend to “stick together”.

        Incidentally, if membership in the ‘club’ weren’t so exclusive, Jews would not have been a minority.

        The persecution mantra is a nice fall-back rationalization that has been ingrained in many a Jewish mind from early childhood, but there are limits to its validity.

      • MRW
        November 30, 2011, 1:52 pm

        Boychik eee,

        Netanyahu got 735,000 votes. You’re saying this daddy-devoted US expat is some kind of leader that American Jews are to honor? Keep blowing that smoke up your patootie.

      • eljay
        November 30, 2011, 2:08 pm

        >> … any organization that does not respect Israeli voices and interests, will not be able to say it is Jewish.

        But any organization that does respect Israeli voices and interests will be able to say it is Jewish.

        Cool.

        Time for all those organizations that do respect the voices and interests of non-Jewish Israelis to go collect their “We’re Jewish!” certificates.

      • Citizen
        November 30, 2011, 2:13 pm

        If Phil were not a jew, I wonder what he would think of his “we jews need to stick together”? Against whom, precisely? Me? I’m not a jew. So I guess I am one of those Phil must stick against? Is there a reason why gentiles should retain individualism? Or should they stick together too? Has Phil’s personal history growing up and living in the USA all his life “engendered” the glue he finds so needed? Should the peasants also “stick together”? Seems to me throughout western history they’ve been treated worse than the jewish people in a net sense.

      • eee
        November 30, 2011, 2:26 pm

        Mooser,

        Did anyone need to publish a list in which Jews for Jesus were declared not a Jewish organization? Not at all. It was a bottom up movement. Nobody needed to give an order from the top for the process to happen.

        An it is already happening with JVP:
        http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/61178/brandeis-university-hillel-sets-off-debate-with-jvp-rejection/

        If JVP tries to force the issue, one by one the Hillels will reject it.

        And what will JVP lose? It will lose its “Jewish” veneer. People will realize that because most other Jewish organizations reject them that they are in fact as much “Jewish” as Jews for Jesus.

      • Mooser
        November 30, 2011, 2:30 pm

        “They are basically saying that what 50% of the Jews elected does not matter. How can one be part of the Jewish community with such attitude?”

        Gosh, “eee” do you think more people in Israel will start thinking about that? I hope so.

      • eee
        November 30, 2011, 3:16 pm

        “Gosh, “eee” do you think more people in Israel will start thinking about that? I hope so.”

        Just like Americans are preoccupied with their daily life and problems so is the average Israeli. You see to think people here are different. So no, they will not think about it, just reject it outright.

      • eee
        November 30, 2011, 3:33 pm

        “Netanyahu got 735,000 votes. You’re saying this daddy-devoted US expat is some kind of leader that American Jews are to honor? Keep blowing that smoke up your patootie.”

        Nobody needs to honor Netanyahu. One has to respect the fact he is Israel’s PM and manifests the will of the Jews in Israel. One has to respect the choices the Jews in Israel make and their institutions.

      • Chu
        November 30, 2011, 5:08 pm

        I agree with Mooser and Avi about this we have to stick together bit.
        It undermines the respect you could have if you just take
        the tribal yolk off. Stuff like this drives people away.
        Come on, man…

      • Woody Tanaka
        November 30, 2011, 5:18 pm

        “Nobody needs to honor Netanyahu. One has to respect the fact he is Israel’s PM and manifests the will of the Jews in Israel. One has to respect the choices the Jews in Israel make and their institutions.”

        The beauty of America is that we are free to respect, or not, whomever we choose. So, no, I do not have to respect the ‘yahoo for any reason.

      • Frankie P
        November 30, 2011, 6:03 pm

        Avi G, as usual, is spot on in his “nitpicking”, although if it “goes to the heart of the matter”, I don’t see why you call it nitpicking. Phil still has this blind spot about the need of Jews to stick together, and the Jewish groups that fit his idea of progressivism exhibit incredible beauty that answers the Jewish desire. The reason for the danger in this ethnocentric clubbing is clear: the adherents and followers of the Seth Klarmans of the world also think they are exibiting incredible beauty that answers the Jewish desire.

        Still waiting for you to return the favor and have Gilad Atzmon in an interview. Grow a pair Phil, and face something that makes you uncomfortable.

      • Shmuel
        November 30, 2011, 6:25 pm

        With 50% of the Jews of the world in Israel and with the percentage growing, any organization that does not respect Israeli voices and interests, will not be able to say it is Jewish.

        I would put it somewhat differently. Engaging with Israel and Zionism is an increasingly important part of being Jewish today. And that is precisely what JVP does.

      • seanmcbride
        November 30, 2011, 6:40 pm

        On the tribalist to universalist scale, from 1 to 100, from most ethnocentric to most universalist, I would place myself at around 75 to 80. Mostly univeralist, but also somewhat tolerant of and interested in the expression of ethnic cultural impulses. I’m glad that there are so many ethnic cultures out there to experience, each with its own special features, contributions and delights (as well as annoyances).

        I’m cool with Phi Weiss being a bit ethnocentric. That’s a more intellectually honest position, in my opinion, than pretending to be totally universalist, which few of us really are. Maybe Gilad Atzmon has achieved this state of pure universality, but it does strike one that he seems to be bogged down in obsessive arguments with the ethnic tradition that he claims to have jettisoned. Clearly it still has a hold on him and haunts his dreams.

      • seanmcbride
        November 30, 2011, 6:54 pm

        On the tribalist to universalist scale, from 1 to 100, from most ethnocentric to most universalist, I would place myself at around 75 to 80. Mostly univeralist, but also somewhat tolerant of and interested in the expression of ethnic cultural impulses. I’m glad that there are so many ethnic cultures out there to experience, each with its own special features, contributions and delights (as well as annoyances).

        I’m cool with Phi Weiss being a bit ethnocentric. That’s a more intellectually honest position, in my opinion, than pretending to be totally universalistic, which few of us really are. Maybe Gilad Atzmon has achieved this state of pure universality, but it does strike one that he seems to be bogged down in obsessive arguments with the ethnic tradition that he claims to have jettisoned. Clearly it still has a hold on him and haunts his dreams.

      • marc b.
        November 30, 2011, 7:12 pm

        If Phil were not a jew, I wonder what he would think of his “we jews need to stick together”? Against whom, precisely? Me? I’m not a jew. So I guess I am one of those Phil must stick against?

        i agree, citizen. oh woe to weiss. how does he even sleep at night with that shiksa in his bed. it’s only a matter of time before she bolts upright and cuts his throat, her jealousy of jewish hyper-achievement and the shame of waspish decline finally getting the best of her. really, do us all a favor, if you have to stick together, do it somewhere else.

      • Shmuel
        December 1, 2011, 2:23 am

        Phil,

        Do you, personally, fear anti-Semitism? Another Holocaust? Do you think that is primarily what motivates most Jews in seeking out other Jews – as opposed to a need for say community or identity? Do you believe that JVP is about having other Jews watch your back (against whom?) while you criticise “the tribe”? Does that mean that Wondering Jew and Howard Jacobson and even eee might have a point about Jewish anti-Zionism (or “ASHamed Jews”, as Jacobson calls them)?

      • MRW
        December 1, 2011, 3:03 am

        “Nobody needs to honor Netanyahu. One has to respect the fact he is Israel’s PM and manifests the will of the Jews in Israel. One has to respect the choices the Jews in Israel make and their institutions.”

        Nobody needs to honor Obama. One has to respect the fact he is America’s President and manifests the will of Americans in the USA. One has to respect the choices the Americans in the USA make and their institutions.

      • RoHa
        December 1, 2011, 5:17 am

        The question I am trying to get an answer to is, “If being a Jew is so dangerous, why not stop being a Jew?”

      • Citizen
        December 1, 2011, 12:16 pm

        Yeah, Phil, “we need to stick together as minorities.” Here’s a video clip right up your alley: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gerq4GpHpKw&feature=youtu.be

        Did You ever contemplate that maybe if white Americans felt like you, they’d be with David Duke? How do you get to have your righteousness and eat it too? But no, for say, your wife?

      • Taxi
        December 1, 2011, 3:32 pm

        Citizen,

        It’s impossible for a person to see their blindspot. Except to know that they got one and they’d better find a trusting partner/sibling/friend to describe it accurately.

        In a progressive world, we’d be sticking to the underdog and not to the tribe.

      • Avi_G.
        December 1, 2011, 4:51 pm

        RoHa says:
        December 1, 2011 at 5:17 am

        The question I am trying to get an answer to is, “If being a Jew is so dangerous, why not stop being a Jew?”

        Because one doesn’t give in and bow down to hatred, oppression or persecution. One sticks to one’s ideals and one’s identity and DEMANDS to be treated equally, to be treated justly.

        The argument you’re making can be flipped to apply to Palestinians. If Palestinians are persecuted and occupied because they sit on land that others want, why don’t they just get up and leave?

      • Citizen
        December 1, 2011, 4:56 pm

        So, you think Phil should allow Atzmon on his website?

      • seanmcbride
        December 1, 2011, 5:04 pm

        I don’t understand why anyone would exert pressure on Jews to give up their Jewish identity — they are the heirs of a great civilization and tradition and should be encouraged to nurture the best values in it — just as we should all be encouraged to nurture the best values in our respective traditions and cultures.

        Reforming Zionism and the policies of the Israeli government is an entirely separate issue. From the standpoint of Jewish history as a whole, Zionism may be just a blip on the screen.

        And from the standpoint of history as a whole, which ethnic and religious groups haven’t gone off the tracks occasionally, or even frequently? Jews shouldn’t be singled out for special censure in these failings.

      • Mooser
        December 1, 2011, 5:22 pm

        “this we have to stick together bit.”

        I do believe all Jews should stick together, as a matter of fact. Very closely together, and never allow any other tribe or religion to break up their unity.
        All Jews should stick together on the basis of their shared history
        in decrying and opposing violence, oppression, discrimination, racism and bigotry. On decrying and opposing those things aimed at anyone, not just against Jews.
        To do so would be to validate our survival in a wonderful way.

      • American
        December 1, 2011, 5:35 pm

        ” i agree with this. jews have a need to stick together, that history has engendered in them.”

        I don’t care if Jews stick together. I don’t care what some group’s preferences or culture is unless it’s bad toward or dangerous for other living things. If their practices or attitudes don’t appeal to me I can ignore them and they can ignore me as long as they don’t impinge on my or anyone else interest or rights.
        Now having said that— I still think that ‘Jews hunkering down together cause the world doesn’t like them’ is like one of those wheel cages that make mice run round and round ……no where to go but round and round…same scenery all the time…view never changes.

      • Mooser
        December 1, 2011, 5:48 pm

        Of course, nobody listens to me.

      • dumvitaestspesest
        December 1, 2011, 6:05 pm

        That’s true.
        All Jews of Good Will should stick together ,and oppose the shameless, zionistc propaganda, that is building a very strong, powerful , not visible yet ,WALL, between the politic and actions of Zionistic Israel, and THE REST of Civilized World.
        Jews have to unite and voice their opposition against using “their name, their martydrom, their religion , their money “to justify oppression and crimes that Israel commits , on daily bases.

      • Philip Weiss
        December 1, 2011, 6:17 pm

        well does sticking together mean i have to stick with you, mooser?

      • RoHa
        December 1, 2011, 7:03 pm

        “Because one doesn’t give in and bow down to hatred, oppression or persecution. ”

        I understand this concept, but it makes the assumption that one is not actually doing anything which provokes that persecution.

        “One sticks to one’s ideals”

        Still with you, but one shouldn’t stick to them without asking “are these good ideals”? Separatism, rejection of one’s neighbours, racial purity hardly seem like ideals worth clinging to.

        “and one’s identity”

        Now you’ve lost me. What is this “identity”, and why is it so important to stick to it rather than change it?

        “DEMANDS to be treated equally, to be treated justly. ”

        From the Gentile point of view, it seems that Jews demand special, unequal, treatment. They demand all the advantages of society without actually fully taking part in it.

        Ane there is another aspect. I may decide to stick to my beliefs and go around wearing a T-shirt that says “You’re all ignorant idiots”, regardless of the opprobium it brings upon me. (Or, if you reject the analogy, just a silly hat that people snigger at.)

        But is it right for me to insist that my children and grandchildren should also wear the shirt/hat? Is it right to brainwash them into the idea that it is somehow their duty to do this, and pass this on through generations, reagardless of the misery those generation will suffer as a result?

      • marc b.
        December 1, 2011, 7:31 pm

        In a progressive world, we’d be sticking to the underdog and not to the tribe.

        oh, but weiss is an underdog, one of a flock of sticky underdogs who at any moment may have their harvard class rings confiscated by mean, petty gentiles. see they’re underdogs and overlords, all at the same time. no contradiction in that, is there? that why weiss can get away with referring to non-jews as ‘goyim’ (i.e. dimwitted, cud-chewing animals) on his site, when he would rightly erase any reference to its jewish analog. what a schmuck.

      • Mooser
        December 1, 2011, 7:43 pm

        “So, you think Phil should allow Atzmon on his website?”

        I’m sure that when MondoJazz gets started, Atzmon will get all the airplay he deserves.

      • Mooser
        December 1, 2011, 7:46 pm

        “well does sticking together mean i have to stick with you, mooser?”

        Uh-oh! I should never have confessed to rifling that JNF box.

      • annie
        December 1, 2011, 7:51 pm

        wow, you’ve really got a bone to pick marc. anything else you’d like to add to that?

      • dumvitaestspesest
        December 1, 2011, 7:55 pm

        Do not dare insult Atzmon ,when I’m around:)
        It’s not a threat, it’s just a gent(i)le warning.

      • Mooser
        December 1, 2011, 7:59 pm

        “The question I am trying to get an answer to is, “If being a Jew is so dangerous, why not stop being a Jew?”

        Being a Jew is a lot like riding a motorcycle.

      • seanmcbride
        December 1, 2011, 8:04 pm

        Not helpful.

      • marc b.
        December 1, 2011, 8:35 pm

        anything else you’d like to add to that?

        no, not at the moment, annie.

      • dumvitaestspesest
        December 1, 2011, 8:43 pm

        How about this saxofonist??:)))

      • American
        December 1, 2011, 8:52 pm

        Well said Mooser.

      • Pixel
        December 1, 2011, 8:57 pm

        Agreed.

      • jayn0t
        December 1, 2011, 10:04 pm

        One of the few sensible arguments to have come out of the far right is the question “why is white identity regarded as uniquely pathological?” (Well, they put it less coherently than that). There are two answers. One is the anti-racist left-wing answer, which says that ethnic identity is ‘OK’ only in oppressed groups. This is easily exposed for what it is by their support for Jewish identity. The other is that ethnic identity is highly adaptive, and that’s why it exists. Which leads inexorably to the view that pathologizing one particular form of ethnic identity is the expression of the interests of another. Atzmon currently has no answer to that.

      • Citizen
        December 1, 2011, 10:20 pm

        Aw geez, marc b, you really gotta look at the context within which Phil uses those yiddish words and expressions.

      • RoHa
        December 1, 2011, 11:13 pm

        “Being a Jew is a lot like riding a motorcycle.”

        You need a helmet?

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 8:51 am

        you really gotta look at the context within which Phil uses those yiddish words and expressions.

        i think i understand the context, the context being weiss’s reality TV serial confession, a theatrical admission of his own prejudices, as if the admission absolves him of guilt. in what context would he permit you to refer to people who are jewish as k*kes, or blacks as n*iggers? his use of the pejorative ‘goyim’ is only partly ironic, which is to say not at all. what is more revolting is that he does not appear to have any real interest in overcoming his prejudices, his continued use of racial epithets being not just an expression of prejudice, but a means of reinforcing his prejudices. this whole we jews need to huddle together racialist BS is just one example of his small-mindedness. see also his truly repulsive gaza commentary, ‘my hummus is decimated’ or whatever he said in that context, again without any sense of irony or appreciation of the circumstances. i have the impression with weiss sometimes, despite my admiration for the collective works of the site, that he is like what’s-her-face, sontag, rushing about from one catastrophe to the next, a grin a mile wide, at the sheer of exhilaration of being at the spear tip of reporting on the cutting edge issue of day. it’s not that i question his sincerity, i believe that he is truly engrossed in this issue, it’s his motives that are suspect.

      • Citizen
        December 2, 2011, 9:27 am

        marc b, use the tools here on MW to select any one of Phil’s articles that use the expression “goyim.” Let’s take it from there, OK?

      • Taxi
        December 2, 2011, 9:35 am

        marcb,
        “oh, but weiss is an underdog…”.

        Marc, the underdog is not necessarily the minority. Sometime the majority is the underdog and the minority, a ruling elite.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 9:52 am

        Let’s take it from there, OK?

        ugh, citizen, you’re assigning me a research project? okay, i’ll get to it later today, but only because your a middle-aged-white-european-christian-heterosexual-middle-class-college-educated-ex-military-american-male-who-still-reads-fiction. we have to stick together.

      • LeaNder
        December 2, 2011, 9:59 am

        a theatrical admission of his own prejudices, as if the admission absolves him of guilt.

        It’s not such a bad move to reflect one’s own racism.

        Concerning the rest, the treatment of Susan Sontag, incidentally one of the sane voices in the US post 911, tells me all I need to know. default setting: ignore marc b. Till he makes his own views visible without needing to “mirror” his own deficiencies into Phil.

        Quite obviously there is a danger in making private matters public, it makes you vulnerable. Ideologues take their favorite bits and declare it a crystal ball.

      • seanmcbride
        December 2, 2011, 10:58 am

        marc b.,

        I haven’t picked up the slightest vibration that Phil Weiss harbors biases against non-Jews, but I *am* beginning to wonder if you might be a bit Judeophobic. Are you?

        One notices that there is a fair amount of rank and raw Judeophobia and anti-Semitism in the anti-Zionist camp. Two examples:

        1. Xymphora (Andrew McElroy)

        http://xymphora.blogspot.com/

        2. Judeofascism (Chris Moore)

        http://www.judeofascism.com/

        Weiss is frank and open about his Jewishness and Jewish orientation, which greatly enhances his credibility on these subjects.

        With regard to motives for being involved in policy debates about Mideast politics: what are yours? What do you find suspect in Weiss’s supposed motives?

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 12:07 pm

        lea, you’re free to ignore me for whatever reason you choose, or for no reason at all, but, with regard to sontag, the criticism i made is, candidly, not an original point made by me, but by a long-time friend of hers. and there are a long list of other legitimate criticisms of her body of work, to include her truly putrid fiction (again, this is not a conclusion original to me, but one reached by many ‘professional’ fans of her non-fiction, of which i am (an amateur)one). but if, as you like, her commentary on 9/11 means that her other work should not be subject to critical analysis, then what you have effectively done is put sontag (posthumously) out of a job. some of her best (and worst) work was pretty acid and uncompromising.

        as for weiss, you suggest that It’s not such a bad move to reflect one’s own racism. whose racism are you referring to? if it’s weiss’s, then i must be missing the whole point of your comment. if it’s allegedly mine ‘mirroring’ weiss’s, then you’re way off mark. my point is simple and consistent: i don’t much like the repeated use of ‘goyim’ in the headlines, in the posts, etc. even if it were only a regurgitation of words coming from someone else’s mouth (which i don’t believe it always is) it’s offensive. (it’s also not very creative as there is a long list of ostensibly jewish authors/artists whose work is chock full of racist stereotypes, including some whom i think are very talented, e.g. woody allen, and some not so much, e.g. gary shteyngart) i don’t recall any headline on mondoweiss making reference to the commentary of an anti-semite, of which there are still many, using a derogatory term for someone who is jewish. and how many headlines would be posted using the word ‘n*gger’, even if it were simply quoted from the commentary of another?

        i don’t have the time to analyze all of the references to ‘goyim’ made by weiss right now as citizen has tasked me (on citizen’s advice i did a quick search and found that there are approximately 1370 references to ‘goyim’ in mondoweiss posts – presumably not all made by weiss, and presumably not including his and other’s use of ‘goy’, ‘shiksa’ etc.) but try this one example on for size and ask yourself if he could have brought himself to use the words ‘k*ke’ or ‘n*gger’ in place of ‘goyim’, even if he were ironically pointing to the racism of a third person.

        A highflown elegy for once-beloved Andrew Sullivan by Benjamin Kerstein at the New Ledger (never hoid of it):

        Nearly a decade ago, Sullivan sent me an email in which he said that to him the defense of the Jewish people was the defense of humanity itself. A bit maudlin, perhaps, but an encouraging thing to hear in the midst of a very nasty terrorist war. Then, last year, Sullivan hit back at Jonah Goldberg for calling Barack Obama an elitist by saying that Goldberg’s own status as a member of a privileged, moneyed elite made him a hypocrite on the issue. It was an attack that was just vague enough, but I couldn’t help feeling it was Goldberg’s Judaism that Sullivan was talking about. We are taught from a young age to have little faith in the kindness of gentiles. This is often unfair, but over time one learns enough bitter lessons to admit that there is at least something to the idea. Unfortunately, I fear that for me this was one of them.

        …In crossing the line between the sane and the mad you yourself once defended, you committed treason against all of us — left and right — who believe in that line, and try to defend it against those who, for the sake of their own fantasies of power and control, would erase it.

        Note the dismissal of all goyim. I wonder what this Israeli-American Zionist’s evidence is for his bitter lessons.

        How does ‘Note the dismissal of all k*kes’ sound to your ear, lea. it sounds pretty repulsive to mine.

      • Taxi
        December 2, 2011, 12:10 pm

        I don’t think marcb is judephobic.

        marcb agreed with citizen who said: “If Phil were not a jew, I wonder what he would think of his “we jews need to stick together”? Against whom, precisely? Me? I’m not a jew. So I guess I am one of those Phil must stick against?”

        The above quote is the crux of the matter. If I ‘stick’ to my lot, surely this means that everyone else is suspect.

        marcb was not declaring white power above jewish power. He was merely objecting to being (abstractly) considered a suspect cuz he ain’t jewish.

        We really gotta stop slurring people who don’t believe that political tribalism, as opposed to cultural tribalism, is a force of good in the world. Cuz it sure ain’t. Jewish people aren’t exempt from being criticized for their political tribalism. Marcb did not criticize jewish culture, but jewish political tribalism.

      • Mooser
        December 2, 2011, 12:26 pm

        “It was a bottom up movement.”

        Of course it was! Like everything else, you pulled it right out of your bottom.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 12:32 pm

        With regard to motives for being involved in policy debates about Mideast politics: what are yours?

        my motivation for being involed in ME politics is pretty simple:
        1. US political/military policies in the ME are murderous. (i was stationed in germany during the first gulf war, and i was the loud mouth questioning why we were going into iraq in the first place, with the inevitable death of thousands, and the one taking handouts from germany peace groups protesting in front of my base);
        2. selfishly, no. 1 is a significant factor in the destruction of civil society in america;
        3. i first began to follow the I/P conflict closely in the wake of lebanon 2006. before that time, i had always considered I/P one of those intractable, undecipherable ‘tribal’ conflicts (like N. Ireland) that wasn’t subject to logical analysis, especially by a lay person. lebanon was so simply wrong, morally, legally wrong, an easy bite to digest, as opposed to 50 years of an ongoing civil war in Israel/Palestine, that i began to study more history, and follow more closely contemporary events. and you know what i concluded? i was lied to, and that the basic grievances and arguments aren’t all that complicated. and there really is nothing more infuriating than being lied to.

      • seanmcbride
        December 2, 2011, 12:33 pm

        Taxi,

        Oversensitivity to the word “goyim” is sometimes an indicator of latent (or overt) Judeophobia. Most of the time the word rolls off my back. In fact, I find myself increasingly using the word in a semi-playful way to describe large collections of idiotic mobs who are easily led around by the nose — beasts of burden and mindless barbarians. (Yes, and I am being a bit of a provocateur in doing so.)

        By the way, if one is Judeophobic, that is not necessarily an attitude that can’t be discussed openly and reasonably. Judeophobia is an important strain running throughout much of world history and among many of the best minds throughout all ages. Better to get it all out into the open and try to figure out what’s going on.

        In any case, I still want to hear from marc b. about what he believes Phil’s motives are in wading into the great Mideast debates and what he thinks his own motives are. I am quite clear about my own motives: in the larger scheme of things I haven’t the slightest idea of how I got drawn into this maelstrom. It’s really crazy territory that seems to derange everyone who gets near it. I would really like to get away from it entirely. It’s like a bad rash, but much worse. We all need to get a better understanding of the deepest roots of the psychology of Abrahamic cults.

      • Mooser
        December 2, 2011, 12:33 pm

        “You need a helmet?”

        For riding a motorcycle, absolutely. For being Jewish, they take your “helmet” right away from you!

      • patm
        December 2, 2011, 12:40 pm

        Adherents of Judaism just happen to be a minority in the world and like all other minorities on the face of the planet they tend to “stick together”.

        Yes, yes, yes, Avi G.

        This is the basic, rock bottom, real world truth of the matter.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 12:43 pm

        taxi, thanks for the defense. i am certainly not a proponent of ‘white’ power or of any racial superiority. my polish mother and her family were plopped into the middle of an italian/irish/etc. neighborhood in cleveland in the 30’s, and their experience was pretty brutal, regular verbal harassment, physical intimidation, fights, etc., probably not all that dissimilar to the treatment of many jews at the time. that’s the history of ‘white solidarity’ as told to me by my mother, and that’s why i give a hearty ‘f*ck you’ to anyone who thinks that they have something in common with me because we are both ‘white’.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 12:50 pm

        Oversensitivity to the word “goyim” is sometimes an indicator of latent (or overt) Judeophobia.

        ‘goyim’ means ‘cattle’ as i understand, a reference to the subject’s inhumanity, lack of intelligence, disposibility. if someone were to call me that to my face, my reaction would be exactly the same as to someone calling a jewish friend of mine a k*ke in my presence.

      • seanmcbride
        December 2, 2011, 12:59 pm

        marc b.,

        Thanks for disclosing your motives. I can relate to them — at one level, all those factors have motivated me to wade into Mideast debates. I think the Israel lobby has inflicted major damage on American interests in a variety of ways, and may well succeed in destroying America altogether. As an American who loves my country, I am angry about this state of affairs. I understand why you are pissed off.

        It strikes me that some smart people within the Jewish community, like Philip Weiss, M.J. Rosenberg and Richard Silverstein, are trying to fix this state of affairs. They are taking great personal risks in doing so with little prospect of being rewarded for their efforts.

        I guess you don’t agree with me that Phil’s positives greatly outweigh his negatives? Is it really a good expenditure of energy to get into an embittered battle with him over some relatively (in my opinion) trivial points?

      • Mooser
        December 2, 2011, 1:00 pm

        “Do not dare insult Atzmon ,when I’m around:)”

        Oh, I’d never, ever insult Atzmon. He is one hell of a horn player, and a master of integrating diverse genres into his Jazz.

      • DBG
        December 2, 2011, 1:03 pm

        ‘goyim’ means ‘cattle’ as i understand

        Goy (Hebrew: גוי‎, regular plural goyim גוים or גויים) is a Hebrew biblical term for “nation”.

        Unbelievable.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 1:08 pm

        and since you are asking so many questions, sean, what is your definition of ‘goyim’? and what is the unironic intent of someone who is jewish referring to a gentile as a ‘goy’? is there a possible positive connotation? i understand the whole hierarchy of racism argument, that the prejudices of an oppressed minority is not necessarily racist (and may even be a legitimate defense mechanism) given the relative powers involved, but how does that hierarchy work in this context? (and, no, i am not saying that ‘white’ people are oppressed. my reference is to the relative privilege of american jews.)

      • seanmcbride
        December 2, 2011, 1:08 pm

        marc b.,

        Regarding “goyim”: I get it. It’s often used in an insulting and racist way by Kahanists, Likudniks, the ultra-Orthodox and Orthodox, etc. I used to complain about it myself, and still might do so, depending on who is using the word and how they are using it.

        It can also be used simply to refer in an easy and offhand way to non-Jews with no malicious intent, sometime semi-ironically or humorously. I even use term sometimes now to refer to brainless aggregations like Christian Zionists. Sometimes the term fits just right.

        I don’t think Phil Weiss has ever used the word with a malevolent or racist intent. On the contrary, he married a goy and obviously respects her. He’s been much tougher on his own people (in the tribal sense) than on tribal outsiders. I’m glad that he brings these tribal issues out into the open for examination and analysis — they are major factors for human beings. We’ve all been conditioned by our respective tribal cultures. Get it all out on the table and thrash it out. See how it settles.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 1:13 pm

        I guess you don’t agree with me that Phil’s positives greatly outweigh his negatives? Is it really a good expenditure of energy to get into an embittered battle with him over some relatively (in my opinion) trivial points?

        i absolutely agree that his positives outweight his negatives. i wouldn’t be here otherwise. i don’t consider his racism (if that’s what it is) trivial, particularly given the issue at hand. and i’m not ’embittered’, i’m just an *sshole.

      • lysias
        December 2, 2011, 1:24 pm

        So, one had to respect the fact that Adolf Hitler was Germany’s Führer and Reich Chancellor and manifested the will of the Germans in Germany, and had to respect the choices the Germans in Germany made and their institutions?

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 2, 2011, 1:39 pm

        “Goy (Hebrew: גוי‎, regular plural goyim גוים or גויים) is a Hebrew biblical term for “nation”.”

        The question, though, is: Is it ever used to refer to non-Jews in a derogatory manner? (Why we need a term other than “non-Jews” to refer to non-Jews is beyond me. Is there a word for non-Bolivians or non-Apaches??)

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 1:43 pm

        Goy (Hebrew: גוי‎, regular plural goyim גוים or גויים) is a Hebrew biblical term for “nation”.

        Unbelievable.

        so it’s your position that if someone were to refer to a gentile as a ‘dumb goy’, that term would be translated as ‘dumb nation’?

        as a pejorative ‘goy’ does not mean ‘nation’, DB.

      • seanmcbride
        December 2, 2011, 1:47 pm

        marc b.,

        “Goy,” depending on the speaker, situation, context, intent, etc,, can have many shades of meaning, from the extremely derogatory and nasty, to neutral, to even friendly. Often it is simply a synonym for “gentile” or non-Jew.

        Within the ideological framework of the ultra-Orthodox, Orthodox and religious Zionists, the term is usually racist and defamatory. For secular Jews, it may or may not be derogatory. Sometimes it is. Not all the time.

      • Mooser
        December 2, 2011, 2:12 pm

        “Sometimes it is. Not all the time.”

        I’ll tell you one thing: You can never go wrong by not using the word. I avoid the hell out of it.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 2:18 pm

        woody, even gentile is just fine by me. with all due respect to sean’s theory of intent, once a word assumes wide use as a pejorative, that context takes over. i have heard the word being used in an allegedly ‘friendly’ context, as a kind of pet name for the gentile romantic relation of some one who is jewish for example, and there is typically some inherent hierarchy involved, whether condescending misogyny, or a ‘cute’ reference to the extended jewish family’s displeasure that their boy/girl is dating a gentile.

      • Lexikon
        December 2, 2011, 2:27 pm

        As a goy myself, married to a brazilian-israeli, I have to agree with marc in this one. Often I’ve seen the jewish community speak of goyim when talking about jewish identity and the impossibility for non-jews to understand some aspects of their lives (an idea that seems kind of preposterous to me, but whatever).

        Not trying to push and overly political correctness agenda, but since there is a word to describe non-jews (non-jews or gentiles, they both work) that is traditionaly isent of a derrogatory meaning, the persistent use of goy and goyim strikes to me as, in the best scenario, latent discrimination.

        That is way I have always made clear to my friends and not friends in the jewish community not to use this term in my presence for I find it offensive.

      • Shmuel
        December 2, 2011, 2:31 pm

        “Goy,” depending on the speaker, situation, context, intent, etc,, can have many shades of meaning, from the extremely derogatory and nasty, to neutral, to even friendly. Often it is simply a synonym for “gentile” or non-Jew.

        On the whole, I agree, although I think it does have more of a tendency toward the derogatory (ranging from mild to extremely offensive). I don’t use it.

      • Taxi
        December 2, 2011, 2:33 pm

        Sean,
        I don’t think it’s a good idea to impose your level of ‘sensitivity’ to the word ‘goyim’ on marcb or anyone else. I personally know some african americans who laugh at hearing the n-word used in an off-color joke and others who jump outta their seats with rage to hear it.

        Personally, I don’t find the word ‘goyim’ inviting, inclusive or welcoming – in fact I think it’s a negative word. But it don’t upset me most of the time. Sometimes it’s the context that fires up passions and not the words per se. It’s clear Phil is anti-zionism cuz primarily he believes it’s bad for the ‘tribe’. That’s his main concern: the tribe. Well that’s his political and emotional prerogative just as it’s marcb’s prerogative to object to Phil’s tribal priorities in a world rife with division and disharmony.

        Phil could be from a voodoo tribe in fueky-fueky island and marcb would still object to his stance if Phil was politically tribalcentric.

        See waddamean sean?

        Marcb ain’t attacking Phil’s tribal position cuz Phil is jewish, but cuz he’s prioritizing the tribe and therefore unwittingly endorsing division of humanity – which creates conflict, let’s face it.

        And marcb’s mistake is that he perhaps underestimates the constantly functioning paranoia that a bleak holocaust can mark most of it’s guilt-ridden survivors and their newborn progeny for decades, sometimes even for centuries. In other words, he doesn’t realize fully that actually Phil can’t help his tribalism – he genuinely can’t help it. But still, absence of marcb’s full measure of simpatico doesn’t make him a judephobe.

        Surely I can’t expect every human being to feel my toothache in exactly the way as I do, for example. Surely I can’t go around thinking therefore that whoever does not feel my toothache is against me and my very existence.

        To me a judephobe is someone who hates on the positive contributions of the jews and slanders their whole history, their religion and their whole people for no good reason. I haven’t seen marcb do this.

        I’m only throwing my two-cents in cuz I thought it was a mislabel to call marcb a judephobe just because of his hyper-critical stance on tribalism.

      • Shmuel
        December 2, 2011, 2:47 pm

        Goy (Hebrew: גוי‎, regular plural goyim גוים or גויים) is a Hebrew biblical term for “nation”.

        Really? No other baggage accumulated since biblical times? Unbelievable.

      • john h
        December 2, 2011, 2:53 pm

        It seems “goy” does not mean nation in the sense we use that word today. Rather it means “people” that have common customs or ways.

        It is often used of Israel, as in “But you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” Exodus 19:6

        But of course in later times and today it means anyone not a Jew.

      • DBG
        December 2, 2011, 3:08 pm

        Shmuel, well tell me when it turned into cattle?

      • Shmuel
        December 2, 2011, 3:16 pm

        well tell me when it turned into cattle?

        It’s called a figure of speech.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 3:20 pm

        As a goy myself . . .

        there we go. an acceptable usage. i have heard black friends use the word ‘n*gger’ to describe one another, or women use ‘b*tch’ (dominican friends call each other ‘bruja’, meaning witch or b*tch, a sign of their toughness). it can make me feel uncomfortable sometimes (should i be laughing along, or not?), but i understand that it is a way of taking control of the language. and, also, for the most part it’s none of my business how people refer to themselves.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 2, 2011, 3:20 pm

        marc b.,

        I agree that unless one is trying to provoke, it should not be used, even if one does not intend a derogatory meaning, given the existance of the derogatory meaning, the potential for misunderstanding and the alternative. Besides, it’s a very, very ugly word aesthetically, in my opinion.

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 3:26 pm

        DB,

        1. do you agree that ‘goy’ can be used as an insult?
        2. if so, what does that word imply when used as an insult?

      • patm
        December 2, 2011, 3:50 pm

        The word that gets my goat is ‘Shiksa’.

        I learned recently in Israel Shahak’s 1994 “Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The weight of Three Thousand Years” that the Spitting Jews consider me a prostitute simply because I’m the wife of a non-Jew. How nasty is that?

      • Citizen
        December 2, 2011, 4:15 pm

        Yeah, Shmuel, I guess like calling a people “rats,” or “insects?” Figures of speech, obviously.

      • MRW
        December 2, 2011, 4:22 pm

        “Really? No other baggage accumulated since biblical times? Unbelievable.”

        Ditto Zionist biblical history.

      • Woody Tanaka
        December 2, 2011, 4:28 pm

        Yes, Patm, that is a disgusting word. I found it truly foul when Sienfeld did an entire episode on it, in a light hearted manner. Absolute filth.

        And those people have some very nasty ideas in general.

      • Citizen
        December 2, 2011, 4:37 pm

        This has a real application to my personal experience, although I am not Italian & I was never a smart-alec, in your face like this Italian guy–in fact much the contrary:
        http://www.break.com/index/jewish-girl-prank-calls-her-parents.html

        All my early experiences getting involved with a Jewish girl were met by hate directed at me by their parents. This commenced before I even met any of their parents personally. Just my experience, in the Chicago metro area. I eventually married a Jewish girl and became privy to the large extended Chicago Jewish families. The word “goy” was always used as a perjorative. Usually it meant, a drunk, stupid animal–hardly a human being at all. That’s just my personal experience, growing up in the USA.

        In my K-12 days, before I ever met a Jew, “jew down” had a common verb meaning to cheat or be under-handed in any kind of business deal, or game, e.g. playing marbles. The words “kike,” “daggo,” “wop,” “pollack,” “nigger” & “mick” were all part of the pre-teen culture I grew up in. I never actually saw discrimination in action until I started dating Jewish girls. Again, just my experience in the US of A.

      • Shmuel
        December 2, 2011, 4:40 pm

        I guess like calling a people “rats,” or “insects?” Figures of speech, obviously.

        I’m not sure whether we have a misunderstanding here, but I’ll recap just to be on the safe side:

        Mark: “Goy” means cattle ….
        DBG: No, it means nation.
        Shmuel: There is more to a word than its “original” meaning.
        DBG: “Goy” still doesn’t mean cattle.
        Shmuel: It could very well mean cattle in the figurative sense (as opposed to “a mammal of the genus Bos“)

        I did not mean to imply that calling someone “cattle” is in any way excusable.

      • Citizen
        December 2, 2011, 5:03 pm

        I believe you did not, Shmuel. I just wanted to put it out there that this type of classification is heavy with negativity. I guess it goes back to Esau? I find it difficult to navigate the dividing of the human world into bipolar vision with God’s rubber-stamp of approval. I think pattern evil started there.

      • seanmcbride
        December 2, 2011, 5:25 pm

        Taxi,

        Good points; I hear you. I withdraw my suspicion that marc b. might harbor some Judeophobic sentiments.

        In private, in my household, I may continue to refer to groups like Christian Zionists as “dumb goyim” — it amuses me. The term fits them like a glove. Slow-witted cattle. So easy to prod them this way and that with a few primitive fairy tales.

        When Benjamin Netanyahu bragged and gloated about how easy it was to manipulate the American people, you know he was thinking they were goyim in the contemptible sense. There may be something to this goyim thing.

        I think it’s cool that most Jews here don’t use the term for reasons of good sense and amicable social relations. Why risk stirring the pot for nothing?

      • marc b.
        December 2, 2011, 6:13 pm

        The word “goy” was always used as a perjorative. Usually it meant, a drunk, stupid animal–hardly a human being at all.

        yes, i can’t recall ‘goy’ or ‘goyim’ ever being used in a neutral way. and as instructed, citizen, i performed a quick search of this site, which obviously caters to a specialized conversation, but it is invariably used in the perjorative here, either as a way of describing jewish cultural and intellectual ascendency, e.g. weiss, or in recognition of the subservient role of national interests to tribal concerns, e.g citizen, etc. for example, when i used the search word ‘goy’, one of the first posts that came up was weiss’s ‘goy and man at yale’. weiss writes,

        Today I thought about a story Jewish boys told at Harvard in the ’70s. The great sculptor Chaim Gross was teaching an art history class at Yale. He showed a slide of the Venus de Milo and said, “That’s a beautiful sculpture. Yes, a beautiful woman. Why? Because of the schmatte, that’s why. Without the schmatte, she’s nothing.” Gross was referring to the cloth the Venus wears wrapped around her hips. But the reason it was such a funny story (my friend Mike Brown, from Coney Island, used to tell it in a guttural New York Jewish accent), was that the blond goyim in the class would look around bewildered at one another, and murmur, “What’s a schmatte?” but Gross had already moved on to the next slide.

        That story was exciting to us because it was about outsider Jews giving it to the goyim, and of course there’s some superiority in it, too.Chaim Gross was teaching the WASPs about western history.

        no hint of prejudice there, waxing nostalgic over the ‘bewildered blond goyim’ in the class unable to speak the language of their professor, who had already moved on to other matters while they scratched their heads in puzzlement. (really, were all of the ‘goyim’ blond, or just the bewildered ones?)

      • Mooser
        December 2, 2011, 7:20 pm

        “I avoid the hell out of it.”

        Well, except when the impact or rhythm of a punchline falls flat without it. I have very strict principles in this regard.

      • Mooser
        December 2, 2011, 7:24 pm

        What’s a schmatte?”

        What’s a schmatte? You don’t know? It’s a mocha topped with whipped chicken fat, of course. Apparently, you do not patronise Jewish espresso stands.

      • Mooser
        December 2, 2011, 7:44 pm

        “jew down”

        My poor FIL was addicted to that expression. Not that he used it often, but he couldn’t remember not to use it in front of me. Amazing how red he would get. And remember, this was a guy who considered himself a pretty temperate speaker, not a guy who had to be ashamed of the things which came out of his mouth. It nearly killed him to have put his foot in it that way, but he just couldn’t remember to drop the expression.

      • Citizen
        December 3, 2011, 10:27 am

        I never head the expression “jew down” after about the 6th grade. Other group nicks included “Krauts” aka “Heinkerplotzers.” My MIL was addicted to the expression “Goyischakopf.” Constantly used in front of me–until her final days. Perhaps because I took care of her during those days.

      • Citizen
        December 3, 2011, 10:34 am

        It use to be interesting, to say the least, to ride the elevator in Winston Towers in Chicago–aka to insiders “Weinstein Towers.” The old ladies would talk in yiddish about everyone in sight–they never realized I knew German, hence I could make out most of their pidgin language.

      • Antidote
        December 3, 2011, 12:32 pm

        marc b.: “as a pejorative ‘goy’ does not mean ‘nation’, DB”

        I’m not even sure whether there is any essential and unbridgeable difference between ‘cattle’ and ‘nation’. In context, it’s a bit of a blur. Nation, from Latin natio, simply refers to birth, being born, and thus applies to all humans, as well as all other animals, including cattle. Goy, as used in Genesis and since Roman times, refers to non-Israelites, thus drawing a line between the Israelites and the rest of humanity as merely ‘born’ but not born and ‘chosen’ and promised a future as a ‘great nation’.

        BTW, thanks for your comments on this thread, marc b. Appreciated.

      • Citizen
        December 3, 2011, 2:08 pm

        Gen 25.23-26. Esau & Jacob, the former made to serve the latter. Esau was the victim of a scam made upon him by Jacob and their common mother. Tevye, the Milkman: Why did God create Jews and non-Jews?

      • seanmcbride
        December 3, 2011, 3:29 pm

        Citizen,

        Groups of human beings throughout history have tended to create ideologies which provide them with a divine license to run roughshod over and plunder outgroups, whom they dehumanize or demonize. “God” is often a projection of their will to power.

        Count up all the passages in the Old Testament which describe the transfer of wealth from “the nations” (the goyim) to God’s chosen people.

        Many other groups have run the same racket behind the facade of various religious ideologies. This is a human behavioral pattern we need to understand.

    • Kathleen
      November 30, 2011, 12:04 pm

      Folks need to start boycotting NBC/MSNBC.

      Codepink , Palestinian human rights groups protesting outside of their offices in DC and New York

      • MRW
        November 30, 2011, 1:49 pm

        I did, Kathleen. I canceled my cable.

      • Taxi
        December 1, 2011, 4:10 pm

        So utterly to the marrow and sinew disgusted with the msm’s coverage of the assault on Gaza, I was compelled without hesitation to cancel my cable in december 2008. Never looked back since. Get better quality news from the internet.

        Mondo folk don’t just boycott the mother effing main stream media – but trash it, belittle it, expose and shame it in public to as many people as you possibly can and every opportunity available. If enough people do this, we can counter their expensive treacherous propaganda for no money and call this phenomenon: People Stream Media. PSM.

        So what you waiting for? Don’t give them your subscription money – all they do with it is use it to create diabolical lies and wars and pocket the remainder and profit.

        The media IS the frigging 1%. They ARE NOT for the people or WITH the people.

        Anything important you need to know about is already for free on the internet.

        Put ’em outta business cuz they’re a disgrace to the business of journalism.

      • dumvitaestspesest
        December 1, 2011, 4:35 pm

        I full agree with You, Taxi. I cancelled my cable about 6 years ago.
        No regrets whatsoever.

    • Graber
      November 30, 2011, 2:45 pm

      Jeff, do you think that Israel occupies the American government? What would Israel look like if there were no American influence there? What would America look like if there were no Israeli influence here?

      So who occupies whom? Some may say that Israeli influence upon American politics is the tail wagging the dog. But I’d contend that that’s just how the damn dog is. What may be perceived as Israeli interests in American politics isn’t as much Israeli interests as it is what Americans wish for Israel to do next.

      I’m really skeptical about you saying ‘our subservience to Israel.’

      • Avi_G.
        November 30, 2011, 5:04 pm

        Graber says:
        November 30, 2011 at 2:45 pm
        But I’d contend that that’s just how the damn dog is. What may be perceived as Israeli interests in American politics isn’t as much Israeli interests as it is what Americans wish for Israel to do next.

        I’m really skeptical about you saying ‘our subservience to Israel.’

        This should explain your symptoms.

        If you’d like me to explain, I’d be more than happy. Or, you can simply pick up a book entitled The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy and educate yourself without having to contend one thing or another as though members of this forum were born yesterday.

  3. pabelmont
    November 30, 2011, 10:48 am

    You cannot build an orphanage without money. If you don’t own a bank, perhaps you must rob one to generate sufficient funds. You cannot build an orphanage for all the long-suffering Jews of the world in Palestine unless you own (part of) Palestine or steal it. Israel is (when seen in the most favorable light) a philanthropic enterprise, created to save Jews (“orphans”). Israel is (when seen in the least favorable light) a kleptocracy, created by stealing he land under its feet by violent terrorism and warfare.

    People like Klarman are so imbued with the “philanthropy” view that they can react to the “kleptocracy” view only by denial, and denial of the fiercest and most democracy-denying kind — denying the right of others to discuss the matter. When has Charlie Rose invited Palestinians onto his show for a frank discussion?

    This attitude of denial, doubtless intended to preserve Israel intact, has allowed Israel to devolve from its relatively innocent criminal status (1948-1967: refusal to readmit refugees of 1948) to such a full-fledged criminal status today (refugees and also settlements, wall, siege of Gaza, war-crimes) that Klarman and his junta must be seen as having made Israel much more at risk than it would have been had there been an attempt at peace-with-justice at an earlier period, an attempt that his suppressive junta effectively prevented.

    • Philip Weiss
      November 30, 2011, 11:08 am

      great question re charlie rose, PABelmont; and your moral insight is helpful to understand what’s going on here

      • lysias
        December 2, 2011, 2:25 pm

        Charlie Rose is very much a member of the 1%:

        Rose’s twelve-year marriage to Mary Rose (née King) ended in divorce in 1980. Mary is the sister-in-law of Morgan Stanley Chairman John J. Mack. Since 1993, his companion has been socialite and city-planning advocate Amanda Burden, a stepdaughter of CBS founder William S. Paley.[23]

        . . .

        Rose owns a 575-acre (2.33 km2) farm in Oxford, North Carolina, an apartment overlooking Central Park in New York City, a beach house in Bellport, New York and an apartment in Washington D.C..[4]

      • flyod
        December 3, 2011, 5:48 pm

        good point. rose has surrounded himself nicely with something closer to the top one tenth percent. amanda burden’s father being stanley mortimer, an air to the standard oil fortune. her stepmother was the daughter of averrell harriman. it would be hard to imagine that rose, given the company he keeps both socially and professionally, doesn’t know precisely what’s going on. these are not stupid people, but clearly they are not going to rock the boat. this is the power of the lobby….stronger than old money

    • Chu
      November 30, 2011, 11:20 am

      Notice now that the charges from the 2nd intifada, as Palestinians being terrorists (or all Muslims) doesn’t really work in today’s news. Now, Israel’s hasbara is that it requires the occupied land to protect itself from the potential rocket fire of enemies all around. It’s just b-s and the world knows it. But the media here is, well… the servant of Israel’s colonial thieving project.

      • eee
        November 30, 2011, 12:29 pm

        You want to have it both ways I see. On the one hand you want to gloat how Hezbollah has tens of thousands of rockets and can hit any part of Israel, and on the other hand you want to claim Israel faces no danger from rockets. Why wouldn’t Iran fund a group like Hezbollah in the new Palestinian state once Israel cedes land? It happened in Gaza and it happened in Lebanon, clearly it is a plausible scenario.

      • Mooser
        November 30, 2011, 12:49 pm

        “You want to have it both ways I see.”

        Let’s see, is this 8mm., Super 8, 16mm, or the full 32mm. cinemascope? Or maybe the new HD digital thing?

      • Chu
        November 30, 2011, 12:49 pm

        Are the occupied territories really for Israel’s safety? Let’s not act ignorant. They are for the expansionary policies that have existed since the founding of the state.
        Israel’s problem is that their safe haven for the diaspora doesn’t hold true in today’s world and their expansionary policies are hurting the legitimacy of the state.
        So, it seems due time to make peace with the neighbors with some serious concessions for the Palestinians, or get the hell out of the hood.

        In the next decade most Americans will realize that Israel’s colonial project is busted, as a clear minority on the web will continue to drill this message to those who are unaware. Most of the world realizes this anyway, and the US is a waning force of military supremacy.

      • Woody Tanaka
        November 30, 2011, 1:32 pm

        “Why wouldn’t Iran fund a group like Hezbollah in the new Palestinian state once Israel cedes land?”

        Because in the process of resolving the conflict you Zionists have inflicted upon the Palestinians, you would have changed your attitude enough so as not to engender the opposition which you heretofore have from groups like Hezbollah and Iran. If you clean up your act and stop acting like amoral animals, stop oppressing people and provide justice to those you harmed, the resistence to your evil would stop, because your evil would have stopped. Of course.

      • eee
        November 30, 2011, 2:03 pm

        “because your evil would have stopped”

        Of course, there is no evil in the Arab world. All evil is the creation of Israel and after Israel disappears there will be no evil. Iran will be a democracy and Hezbollah will change its tune about wanting all Jews in Israel so it would be easier to kill them.

        There will be power struggles in the Arab world whether or not Israel exists and until democracy is ingrained in the Arab world, there will always be somebody to fund groups like Hezbollah. Lebanon and Gaza are clear examples.

      • Woody Tanaka
        November 30, 2011, 3:38 pm

        “Of course, there is no evil in the Arab world. ”

        We aren’t talking about the Arab world, but you evil bastards.

      • Shingo
        November 30, 2011, 6:39 pm

         On the one hand you want to gloat how Hezbollah has tens of thousands of rockets and can hit any part of Israel, and on the other hand you want to claim Israel faces no danger from rockets.

        Are you suggesting that the entire Middle East and Europe is on danger of being hit by Israeli nukes? After all, they are all within range are they not?

  4. split
    November 30, 2011, 11:22 am

    Of course all those donations are tax deductible money that must be replaced by an additional taxes imposed on six-pack Joe that just lost his job and will lose his house soon or did already ,…

  5. American
    November 30, 2011, 11:22 am

    “But being a liberal philanthropist is just one side of Klarman. He is also an Israel lobbyist who is just as rightwing as Sheldon Adelson, the casino owner who supports the Republican Party.”

    Dear Doctor Vet,

    I love my doberman and he loves me and is such a good watchdog for the children, but he’s attacked and killed two of my neighbors.
    What should I do? Do I need to lock him up?

    Yours truly,

    Clueless in America

  6. Kathleen
    November 30, 2011, 11:31 am

    “Klarman gives money to settler groups: the Central Fund of Israel,which pays for settlers’ “security needs” in the occupied West Bank, and Ir David, which is digging up East Jerusalem and displacing Palestinians. He gives $1 million in a year to Birthright, the program to send young American Jews to Israel to fall in love with the Jewish state. He supports the rightwing propaganda organization, the Israel Project (he’s on their board), gives big money to the Friends of the Israeli Defense Forces, and to top it off, Klarman is chairman of the board of the David Project, the group that has targeted Arab and Muslim intellectuals on college campuses. ”

    Giving big money to Israeli terrorist groups and activities has been acceptable for decades. Just imagine if this money was going to Palestinian groups charities? Oh yeah the lobby has basically shut this down.

    Phil last night (Tuesday) Chris Matthews went on a tirade about Iran. Repeating most of the unsubstantiated claims about Iran. Insuring his job with Comcast and insuring his pro Israel no matter what credentials once and for all.

    The same thing happened on Morning Joe this morning about Iran. The MSNBC pro Israel drip drip drip effect.

    Also heard a short blip on MSNBC about how there was going to be a special focus on their “Israeli listeners” Very odd blip.

    That piece you recently put up about NBC and MSNBC explained a great deal. Clearly MSNBC Israel lobby and Israel occupied territory.

    The Iran drum beating is getting louder and louder on MSNBC

    • Philip Weiss
      November 30, 2011, 11:37 am

      yes kathleen and did you notice there was an ad for Israel on HArdball last night? im sure it was coincidence, but, Hasbara never sleeps
      interestingly, Matthews’s great concern was that IRan’s threats would “blight” the future of young Israelis, they’d make their lives elsewhere. But this is already happening, Chris, because of the unending “matsav,” the situation, which never changes, which only multiplies Palestinian suffering, which isolates Israel, and which causes the lucky brainy ones to leave town when they can

      • Kathleen
        November 30, 2011, 11:50 am

        Did not notice the add during Hardball. Kept dozing with Matthews endless focus on the 2012 election for the last five months. But the blip this morning on “Israeli listeners” was odd. Can you imagine if MSNBC started paying special attention to Irish, Polish listeners? What the hell. Talk about creative and oh so manipulative.

        Chris Matthews better not try to spin that he was asking tough questions and having well informed scholars, experts etc on about Iran before Israel or the US strike Iran. He tried to do this after the invasion and slaughter in Iraq. That he had been different than the rest of the MSM Iraq group thinkers. Now he did give Kristol, David “axis of evil”Frum, Gaffney and a few other WMD liars a bit of a hard time. But not much. He did not have Scott Ritter, El Baradei, Bryzinski, others who were questioning the validity of the WMD intelligence on his program before the invasion.

        On Iran Matthews is beating the Iran drum as much as anyone. On Israel he just salutes and pledges his allegiance to Israel and Comcast.
        That Comcast pay check has his alleged commitment to truth and facts held in check. Along with Maddow, Engel, Ed and the rest.

        The Governor of Delaware was on Morning Joe I think it was yesterday and he brought up how he was paying special attention to bringing Israeli businesses to Delaware.

        When you think about Delaware and their special relationship with the banking industry one thinks about Monaco and Switzerland’s special relationship with rich folk hiding money. Delaware is the US’s version of Monaco

      • Citizen
        November 30, 2011, 2:19 pm

        Delaware is the home of corporations. That’s why so many are incorporated there.

      • Kathleen
        November 30, 2011, 11:55 am

        He clearly never diverts his reading about Iran from the NYT’s and other pro Israel no matter what news outlets. Have been begging him and his team over at his site for quite a while now to have well informed scholars, experts on about Iran instead of automatically repeating the I lobbies mantras about Iran. Clearly not interested in assisting the American public in widening their understanding about Iran based on facts.

        He had better not try to spin his go get Iran drum beating after Israel or the US attack Iran based on these false claims that he keeps repeating.

      • Kathleen
        November 30, 2011, 12:01 pm

        Chris Matthews

      • eee
        November 30, 2011, 12:25 pm

        Israel’s brain drain is not because of the “matsav”. It is because academic positions are hard to get in Israel and the universities in the US are better funded. There is a brain drain from all over the world to the US and Israel is no exception.

      • annie
        November 30, 2011, 12:41 pm

        Israel’s brain drain is not because of the “matsav”

        oh please. the ministry of education definitely has something to do w/matsav:

        http://972mag.com/exclusive-full-report-on-department-of-politics-and-government-at-ben-gurion-university/28608/

      • eee
        November 30, 2011, 1:07 pm

        Really, if tomorrow there was peace, would suddenly the Israeli universities be better funded? Would salaries triple? There is brain drain from Europe to the US also. And inside the US there is brain drain from states without good universities to states with good universities. Smart, academic oriented people do not stay in Idaho or Wyoming.

  7. MRW
    November 30, 2011, 11:40 am

    Let me give y’all the skinny on foundations, since few of you here are in that league, and you still think these are philanthropies.

    If you’re super rich in the USA and you want to avoid paying taxes, you create a family foundation. (And there are only about 60 or 70 “Level Four” tax attorneys in the country who are qualified and licensed by NYU and the IRS annually to do it; generally one per state. One of them gave me the skinny on this. They must retake the Level Four license annually in Manhattan.)

    The rules are that you MUST give away 10%. The rest you get to spend on yourself, your houses, your offices, your property abroad, meals, travel, ivestments, etc, tax-free.

    So don’t be too impressed by all these people, these great philanthropists so-called. The government allows the super-rich to set themselves up as mini-governments, deciding who is going to get their largesse.

    That’s why Elie Wiesel was so upset when Madoff looted his foundation: Madoff took all he had, and what he was living off.

    • MRW
      November 30, 2011, 11:58 am

      Just to clarify: that’s give away 10% annually. Generally, you have to be worth about 50 million before you can form a foundation.

      • RoHa
        November 30, 2011, 8:39 pm

        “Just to clarify: that’s give away 10% annually. Generally, you have to be worth about 50 million before you can form a foundation”

        That sounds great! You wouldn’t happen to have a spare 50 million you let me … er … borrow for while, would you?

    • Sand
      November 30, 2011, 12:01 pm

      ‘It takes money to make money’. Have you any links to this 10% rule? Actually, I would be very interested to read any exposé articles on these types of Foundations? ONLY 10% that’s amazing!

      • MRW
        November 30, 2011, 1:05 pm

        No, Sand, I don’t. The tax attorney is a friend of mine, and explained it all to me one day over drinks. Have to say I was stunned. There are all sorts of financial instruments you can use in a foundation that you can’t use otherwise, meaning ways of hiding money from a spouse or partner, and there are specific rules about holding property so that you can use it personally.

        I met a woman years ago who was running her dead NYC artist brother’s foundation. She was dead broke before his death. After it, she was renovating a penthouse on Central Park West, flying first class to run fundraisers in his name (how she kept filling the foundation’s coffers), eating at all the best places with friends whom she claimed as foundation interest, and getting expensive beauty treatments daily. I remember her bragging to me about the 10% rule. And everyone thought it was just peachy that she was so concerned about her brother’s name and work, and wowed at how selfless she was. Gigantic con.

        Needless to say, when I hear the word “foundation” I am not impressed, and I know exactly what is going on. Bill and Melinda Gates HAVE to spend that money. So does Klarman. Their philanthropy is tax avoidance. That’s all.

      • Mooser
        November 30, 2011, 1:41 pm

        MRW, oddly enough, you just may have cleared up some personal mysteries surrounding my Mom’s death and will. No, she had nowhere near the estate which can support a “foundation”, but Ouija boards don’t lend themselves to long explanations of tax and estate and probate law. Thanks.

      • Sand
        November 30, 2011, 2:46 pm

        Oh, how the 1% live. Well, that was an eye-opener. 10% — I just can’t get over it.

      • Keith
        November 30, 2011, 5:12 pm

        MRW- “Their philanthropy is tax avoidance. That’s all.”

        I think you are being too charitable. “Philanthropy” enables the rich to leverage their wealth so as to exert considerable social control and influence. The Rockefeller Foundation and the Council on Foreign Relations, for example. It is how the wealthy avoid taxes AND shape the social environment to their liking. It also is how the fat cats co-opt the opposition to oligarchic rule. In my view, there is no such thing as a progressive foundation in the fullest sense of the term. None which would support fundamental changes to our current system. They are instruments of power masquerading as charity.

      • Sand
        November 30, 2011, 6:22 pm

        I remember Mike Malloy talking about all those ‘Democratic’ big donors (I’m sure some of them having a “Foundations” or two) not wanting to give a dime to get “Progressive Radio” off the ground. Wake up to the real world [email protected]!

      • MRW
        December 1, 2011, 1:27 am

        Yeah, and they get around estate taxes for their descendants, because foundations don’t die.

      • MRW
        December 1, 2011, 1:30 am

        Keith, you’re right about shaping social issues. And everyone who listens to that twatter after every PBS show or NPR special about the foundations that supported it thinks the named-person foundation is so magnanimous. Hah.

      • Pixel
        December 1, 2011, 9:16 pm

        Spot on.

      • lysias
        December 2, 2011, 2:32 pm

        Also neatly evading the common law property-law rule against perpetuities.

    • lysias
      December 2, 2011, 2:30 pm

      And even the 10% that you give away gives you power. You get to decide where it goes, and the recipients — as well as potential future recipients — treat you with the utmost respect.

  8. Krauss
    November 30, 2011, 11:54 am

    One of the key issues of discussing Zionism is that a lot of Zionists equate Zionism with Judaism. This is why people like Klarman sees attacks on Israel as the build-up of Nazism. This also invites others to view Zionism as something representing Jews, which means it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    A lot of Zionists like Klarman denounce such acts and claim that you got to seperate Jews as a group and Zionism as a concept. I agree a 100 %. The problem is that he – and much of the Zionist establishment – breaks that divide all the time by suggesting overtly that almost all critics of Israel are motivated by ethnic hatred, thereby implicitly endorsing a view of Zionism = Judaism = The entire Jewish people.

    There probably are genuine anti-Semities who hate Israel, although I think whatever the numbers are, many of them probably became anti-Semities when they are constantly told that Israel = The Jewish people, and then seeing the actions of Israel (with what they’ve been told by people like Klarman over and over again), they simply make the case that if that’s the case, if Israel truly is the embodiment of the Jewish people, then the Jewish people must be rotten.

    And so Zionists like Klarman get validated in their beliefs, and continue with even more intensity and the self-fulfilling prophecy comes full circle.

    • dahoit
      November 30, 2011, 1:10 pm

      Why would anti Semites hate Israel,(unless of course they are irrational haters)when its existence causes less Jewish neighbors that they might hate?(Of course today,more Jews seem to be leaving Israel than going,a fruit of bad policy)And the word hatred,is it possible its just non approval,distaste or dislike?What evidence is their in recent American history of violence against Jews?And if this nation is anti Semitic,how does that coincide with the level of Jewish power and control?Just a smokescreen or muddying the waters,to portray patriots as bad people.I notice Jews themselves also have many many prejudiced members,when is anti-goyism going to be codified?Will they implant a selective hate chip soon in newborns?

      • Sand
        November 30, 2011, 3:11 pm

        Why why on earth must you immediately jump and think of “violence”? Anyway, the Jewish community has the Department of Homeland Security well and truly in their pocket – somehow I don’t think we will be seeing any Jews being locked away in the near future. However, I have a sneaky suspicion that the ADL wouldn’t mind pushing legislation to be able to lock people away for even daring to be critical of Israel “de-legitimizing Israel” will have a whole new meaning!

        BTW at that AIPAC Scottsdale, Arizona committee meeting — our very own Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO) was there.

        “…Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-MO), chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Subcommittee on Contracting Oversight and member of the Armed Services Committee, spoke to Summit delegates about the importance of the U.S.-Israel relationship. “The relationship between the United States and Israel is crucial to our national security and the future of our world,” she said. “Protecting and advancing that relationship [US-Israel], including ensuring the safety and security of Israel, must remain the highest priority for our nation.”

        http://www.aipac.org/NearEastReport/20111113/NER_AIPAC_Arizona.html

        Oh yeah, the I-Lobby has the Dept of Homeland Security well and truly stitched up.

      • Sand
        November 30, 2011, 3:24 pm

        Oh and – Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano — was at the AIPAC Scottsdale, AZ event as well! Just to drum home the message.

        And Prof. Finkelstein according to Max Blumenthal says that “neocons had “no role” in taking US to Iraq. Astounding” It’s more than astounding — esp. when you read what goes on at these AIPAC and US government ‘Summits’.

      • Charon
        November 30, 2011, 8:22 pm

        DHS is a function of the lobby. It’s the Department of Moledet Security. In English, homeland is a word. The Hebrew Moledet and related German Heimat are a concept that translates into an English word without the full meaning. Modern Hebrew Moledet roughly translates to ‘birthplace’ or loosely ‘motherland’ which is what classic biblical Eretz Moledet also means. Moledet by itself meant something like ‘common era’ or ‘birth group’

        Could it also refer to a bloodline? Whatever the “Homeland” is, it is not the US. This is just a theory obviously, but the definition of homeland does not describe the US nor will you find the US being referred to as the ‘homeland’ until some neocon suggested making a security department with ‘homeland’ in the name back in the 90s. It is a foreign term. Since DHS we’ve adopted Israel’s Orwellian security policies including assassination.

        Logic+Common Sense+ Circumstantial Evidence=Truth. Truth is self-evident.

    • split
      November 30, 2011, 1:17 pm

      ‘There probably are genuine anti-Semities who hate Israel’ – You don’t have to be an
      anti-Semite to hate Israel and some Israelis I mean those venom spewing , trigger happy warmongers ,…

    • Sand
      November 30, 2011, 1:31 pm

      Interesting. Yes, they’ve kinda shot themselves in the foot. With the dumbing down of the American public (at lot of the time by Zionists — hell, they even have a nation-wide/world-wide industry involved in it), e.g with the constant reinforcement of Israel being the *Jewish* State in the MSM, and Rabbis making sure they are turfing out newbie Rabbis with a “Zionist mindset” — I could see it definitely biting them in the butt at some point.

  9. Justice Please
    November 30, 2011, 12:29 pm

    Great job dissecting the various nodes in the pro-Israel network. We need to know names if we want to resist it.

    • split
      November 30, 2011, 1:54 pm

      And some numbers to know what to resist ,…

      “Collectively, the Jewish federations in North America raise just under $1 billion per year through their annual campaigns and another $1.5 billion to $2 billion through endowments, donor-advised funds and other special campaigns.

      The Jewish Federations would not make public the entire report, which is being put together by the Federation Benchmarking Project and looks at 34 different fund-raising areas”

      “Last year, the federation system collectively raised $2 billion from its annual campaign and assets, it said”

  10. Woody Tanaka
    November 30, 2011, 12:31 pm

    “Seth Klarman seems to be a good liberal.”

    No, he seems very bad at it… As I’ve said many, many times, if you aren’t willing to apply your principles to yourself and your people, then you do not have principles; at best you have presently-operative positions.

  11. Kathleen
    November 30, 2011, 12:39 pm

    Phil/all have you read this (unable to link) The Australian
    A second Iranian nuclear facility has exploded, as diplomatic tensions rise between the West and Tehran by: Sheera Frenkel From: The Times November 30, 2011 11:00AM

    AN IRANIAN nuclear facility has been hit by a huge explosion, the second such blast in a month, prompting speculation that Tehran’s military and atomic sites are under attack.
    Satellite imagery seen by The Times confirmed that a blast that rocked the city of Isfahan on Monday struck the uranium enrichment facility there, despite denials by Tehran.

    The images clearly showed billowing smoke and destruction, negating Iranian claims yesterday that no such explosion had taken place. Israeli intelligence officials told The Times that there was “no doubt” that the blast struck the nuclear facilities at Isfahan and that it was “no accident”.

    The explosion at Iran’s third-largest city came as satellite images emerged of the damage caused by one at a military base outside Tehran two weeks ago that killed about 30 members of the Revolutionary Guard, including General Hassan Moghaddam, the head of the Iranian missile defence program.

  12. hophmi
    November 30, 2011, 12:59 pm

    “He is dependent on such sources for funding, and the price of that support is not criticizing Israel. ”

    What abject nonsense. Charlie Rose has Arabs and Palestinians on ALL THE TIME. I remember his interview of Edward Said a few years ago (Said was on six times). He has had Rashid Khalidi on twice last year and three times in 2009 (Khalidi has been on more than a dozen times in the last ten years). Most of the time, it’s to discuss the conflict and often Khalidi is alone.
    Saeb Erekat was on his show alone in September for a 30 minute interview. Salam Fayyad was on his show last year for about half-an-hour. In 2009, Fayyad got an entire hour to himself. Rose devoted an entire segment to Budrus earlier this year. Khaled Meshaal was on his show last year. I can go on. You can check his website.

    • Kathleen
      November 30, 2011, 1:44 pm

      Yowser Hop never thought I would be agreeing with you. The difference is that Rose will ask challenging questions of the above mentioned. Not the case when he has Ehud Barak or other Israeli Reps on

    • Citizen
      November 30, 2011, 2:26 pm

      And in all those interviews, Rose is very careful to steer the interview away from any real attempt to get into Israeli actions and US enablement of them. Rose always merely touches the surface; he glides away from in depth follow-up every time.

    • Cliff
      November 30, 2011, 2:31 pm

      I’ll have to agree with hophmi here for once.

      (while ignoring his hypocritical and cynical indignation)

      Rose has had Palestinian voices on the show before. I think he is kind of lame though in the way he will interview these people. I think he was constantly interrupting Chomsky when he was on.

      He’s not Amy Goodman but he is not Chris Matthews either.

      I think he hugs the Zionist because of the PEPness of his station in life. That’s Chinatown for you.

  13. kalithea
    November 30, 2011, 2:14 pm

    The problem is partly the fault of many Jews who could care less about what happens in Israel, would never trade their lives in the diaspora to live in Israel, but who defend Zionism as security against anti-semitism or refuse to surrender the superior status that Zionist power affords them. Such people are weak-minded, selfish, have no conscience and zero integrity.

    Klarman equates growing criticism of Israel to the rise of Nazism. This is the pivotal argument of Zionist hasbara. By pimping the Holocaust and laying on the guilt trip Zionists effectively silence a great majority of people. The bribing of political parties, politicians, media outlets, university faculty etc. together with the strategy of using the “anti-semitism” card is how Zionism effectively subverts democracy and it’s becoming more pervasive, making the rest of us feel like our freedom is being undermined and we’re literally being gagged and bound by these thugs, because that’s what they are: thugs with money to throw around!

    They’re successfully shutting down dissent by the minute minority and shrinking left in Israel, while here dissent has been practically non-existent until Cast Lead thanks to the “busy-ness” of Zionists, and they’ve succeeded in diminishing rights in Israel and have been using 9/11 and Islamophobia to do the same here.

    No-no, criticism of Israel doesn’t represent rising Nazism; Zionism embodies the spirit of Nazism infecting the branches of democracy until it withers and morphs into the warped version of “democracy” that Israel has always been.

    There is no way to fight this subversion i.e. massive bribing and influence peddling. It’s become too widespread and entrenched. Ironically, the only way to do it is to get at the source of their motivation, Israel, expose and condemn what’s happening there, fight it with BDS and expose Zionism for the racist, supremacist ideology it is.

    Oh and Zionist Democrats are definitely more dangerous than Zionist Republicans, because they use democratic causes to spread their Zionist agenda which is totally anti-democratic and anti-liberal. Zionist Democrats and Zionist “liberals” need to be exposed and now that we’re done taking Klarman and Charlie Rose to task it’s time to dissect the mixed messages, confusion and hypocrisy of Bradley Burston.:

    http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/a-special-place-in-hell/at-last-occupation-zionists-and-israel-loathing-u-s-jews-can-agree-1.398522

    Notice how he places himself on some higher plain or sacred, untouchable ground by pushing the two-state solution, WHICH HE KNOWS THE FACTS ON THE GROUND AND REALITY NEGATE. He’s using a practically defunct two-state option and the joke peace process to RESCUE HIS PRECIOUS ZIONISM more than anything else!

    Notice how he laments the end of Zionism in the last paragraph and conflates it with the end of Democracy. Burston just can’t figure out that Zionism IS the end of Democracy, and he’s hugging his Zionism like it’s the last tree in a depopulated forest and won’t let go! He’s so stuck to the delusion that is Zionism that he fails to see how it warps his logic and enables the thing he fears.

    It’s the intentionally deluded, mixed-up burston-types that are the worst enablers of Palestinian statehood stagnation and rabid settler expansionism and, oh yes, the hastening of the END OF DEMOCRACY in Israel and the threat to our own!

  14. Taxi
    November 30, 2011, 2:26 pm

    A hug?

    Shoulda been a wedgie.

    Each.

    Cuz the irony is that arabophobic/islamaphobic Seth and lapdog Charlie are complaining about hatred toward 16 million jews while hating on some 1.3 billion arabs and moslems.

    The pair of ’em should try crunching them numbers above if they had any sense of self-honesty.

    Heinous to give with one hand and stab with the other!

    I despise rich people who promote wars while hiding behind the curtain of charity.

  15. kalithea
    November 30, 2011, 3:02 pm

    Oh, and to add to my previous comment; don’t ask Bradley Burston to choose between Democracy and Zionism because you may just end up seeing his true colors. But of course, he’ll reply why should he choose since it’s a hypothetical. To him it’s STILL a hypothetical; that’s because Zionism also makes one very myopic. Ten years from now he’ll be pretending he still doesn’t see what’s in front of his nose.

  16. Sin Nombre
    November 30, 2011, 4:45 pm

    kalithia wrote:

    “Klarman equates growing criticism of Israel to the rise of Nazism. This is the pivotal argument of Zionist hasbara.”

    I would put it another way and say it’s the *anchor* of same, and indeed so much if not all of the rest of the partisan Israel arguments.

    Where, after all, would they be without it? Why would they get even one more ounce of sympathy than any other country if not for same?

    Accordingly it seems to me that what ought to be done is return the understanding of the Holocaust to where it properly was up until it was elevated into what it is today: That is, just as one component of a political madness essentially, a madness that arose and flowered in two totalitarian systems at the time.

    Wouldn’t surprise, given the length of time now that the Holocaust has been given such exclusive treatment, that a poll of those under, say, 25, would reveal a goodly number believing that WWII was fought over the Holocaust. Or that the jews were Hitler’s sole original targets, or etc. and so forth.

    Forgotten now almost is the probable ten million or so additional non-jewish victims of Hitler, and the certainly ten*s* of millions non-jewish victims of Bolshevism, with Christians especially getting it in the neck. (Not to mention the especially enthusiastic participation of jews in tormenting those victims.)

    In fact I see there’s a kind of kerfuffle going on in Israel right now about … Lithuania if I’m not mistaken. Some anger at it not only somehow condemning the Germans but also the Bolshevik partisans that existed and that was bloody-minded too—many of whom were jews apparently. In Haaretz, I think I’ve read a few such stories, with it eliciting the same kind of comments from Lithuania that one sees coming from Poland when they are whacked badly by Israel noting that while Israel insists on hunting down ex-Nazis, it repeatedly refuses to extradite jews who’ve moved there after serving the Bolshies in Eastern Europe in savage capacities.

    Anyway, bring back the original understanding, I say. Talk also about the Holocaust experienced by the slavs generally, or the Poles, or the Ukranians. Nobody’s giving them some free passes given what happened to them.

    • flyod
      November 30, 2011, 5:17 pm

      ” and the certainly ten*s* of millions non-jewish victims of Bolshevism, with Christians especially getting it in the neck. (Not to mention the especially enthusiastic participation of jews in tormenting those victims.)”

      spot on. what force is this and to what purpose was it created?

    • Pixel
      December 1, 2011, 9:33 pm

      .
      “Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers”: A Documentary

      Hitler’s Jewish Soldiers??

      It’s hard to sort out fact from fiction …or is it?

  17. LeaNder
    November 30, 2011, 5:21 pm

    What new book on antisemitism is he alluding to below:

    (40:22 in)Seth Klarman: I think we all recognize that Israel could do things a little differently, to be more user friendly. But at the same time I am scared of this moment in history, I think that if you look at the history of antisemitism as [about 40:38 in ] … [what? who? I miss something here] has done in a recent book that just came out. Hatred of Jews has shifted to the hatred of the Jewish state in my mind. I am quite convinced that this is what we are seeing. And that when Israel is singled out like no other country for example at the United Nations with endless resolutions, over decades, going back to the Zionism was racism statement. It is absolutely terrifying

    • Sand
      November 30, 2011, 6:16 pm

      Seth Klarman can’t understand why money can’t buy him EVERYTHING.

      Money does not give him the right to MAKE people and governments accept the ethnic cleansing of a people who have done us no harm, so a supposedly special tribe can decide at a whim to live in their place. He talks of a Jewish State seemingly oblivious of the fact there are still Palestinians, human beings living there. How utterly disgusting is that. Hatred? No, I would say people are more concerned with how many sociopaths are out there.

    • American
      November 30, 2011, 6:45 pm

      Seth Klarman:
      ………..I am scared of this moment in history, I think that if you look at the history of antisemitism …..
      Hatred of Jews has shifted to the hatred of the Jewish state in my mind.
      I am quite convinced that this is what we are seeing.
      It is absolutely terrifying .'”

      That is too comic. Do you suppose this guy believes this or is he just hawking hasbara for Israel? Seth is scared!… Everyone hates Israel because it’s Jewish, the ‘new’ anti semitism!… The sky is falling! So where is Seth going to go to be safe since he’s Jewish and Israel is Jewish? What’s his solution? He must have thought of what can be done about this since he’s so worried and terrified.

      • LeaNder
        December 1, 2011, 6:00 am

        Sand, he is supported by Alvin Rosenfeld, who, as RW, considers especially Jewish dissent on Israel as the ultimate threat:

        review, Forward: The End of the Holocaust, Alvin H. Rosenfeld:
        Some readers may be inclined to argue with the alarmed vision of its closing pages, which assemble evidence for the possible coming of a second Holocaust against Israel, but this does not diminish the impact of the preceding chapters.

      • Citizen
        December 1, 2011, 6:45 am

        There’s some context left out of Rosenfeld’s article. How many Americans know of Babi Yar? How many know any of this, especially in any detail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_crimes_in_Poland#The_treatment_of_Polish_Jews

      • Sand
        December 1, 2011, 8:54 am

        So LeaNder — are these books supposed to be the Jewish equivalent of the Tim LaHaye end of days books? I am supposed to be impressed with this guy who was successful in actually getting his paranoia published?

    • LeaNder
      December 1, 2011, 5:50 am

      Seems I have to help myself:

      I think that if you look at the history of antisemitism as Facing History has done in a recent book that just came out.

      Facing History: Phylis Goldstein, A convenient Hatred: The History of Antisemitism.

      • Citizen
        December 1, 2011, 6:33 am

        I notice there were no footnotes in the sample pages. Just, generalization after generalization. No sometimes conflicting information at all. Giant leaps over centuries here and there, when Jews did well as a whole. Where did the information come from? You should try Esau’s Tears. http://www.amazon.com/Esaus-Tears-Modern-Anti-Semitism-Rise/dp/0521593697

      • American
        December 1, 2011, 10:42 am

        ” A convenient Hatred..”

        Convenient for who?
        I guess that title is meant to convey that Jews are always innocent scapegoats.
        Is this anti semitism hysteria being promoted more and more lately or am I just imaging it is because it’s part of the topic here?

      • Citizen
        December 1, 2011, 11:05 am

        FOX News is promoting regularly that the OWS movement is anti-semitic.

  18. Keith
    November 30, 2011, 6:09 pm

    It is in the nature of social organization that the unorganized majority are inevitably controlled by an organized minority. This organized minority is possible due to strong internal cohesion enabled by a shared ideology. The Zionist ideology permeates organized American Jewry, and creates the motivation and solidarity necessary for effective coordinated action. Israel is the tribal totem, the Holocaust and perceived anti-Semitism the motivators. The Zionists expend considerable resources in cultivating and maintaining their Jewish Zionist base. Their organizational success provides an effective base for influence and power-seeking. American Zionist efforts are primarily toward that end. American Jewish Zionists are a power-seeking collective. Charlie Rose is responding to that power.

    “Zionism is Jewish power- worldly and state power: military, economic, and ideological, too. It is the power, which to paraphrase Thomas Hobbes, is the “capacity to give names and enforce definitions,” including the definition that collapses the meaning of Jewishness into the support of Israel….” (Joel Kovel, “Overcoming Zionism”)

  19. Sin Nombre
    November 30, 2011, 6:59 pm

    In a very keenly observant post Keith wrote:

    “This organized minority is possible due to strong internal cohesion enabled by a shared ideology.”

    While in the meantime, it should be noted, condemning the internal cohesion of any other group in the most thundering moral and ethical terms possible.

    As I’ve said, the double standard is the absolute stigmata of this minority. Behind every argument it seems lies what amounts to special pleading. (Even if typically phrased in terms of special *demanding.*)

  20. chauncey
    December 1, 2011, 10:07 pm

    Robert Kraft started the IFL, the Israel Football League, with 8 teams.

    http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/ci_17604862?IADID=Search-www.santacruzsentinel.com-www.santacruzsentinel.com

    Here is an exerpt, suitable for US MSM readers:

    ” HOLY LAND CALLING

    When Martisius was 20, he made three trips to Israel in a 12-month span. The first was a birthright trip during the Lebanon War.

    “The birthright trips are designed to get you excited about being Jewish,” said Hilary Martisius, John’s mother. “They’re zionistic. When the war happened, it made him think and it made him brave.”

    Martisius was drawn to the country and its people. He wasn’t going to let conflict with Palestine dissuade him gaining Aliyah, the immigration of Jews to the Land of Israel.

    “The threat of attack from the Palestinians, the threat of invasion ended about 1½ years ago. There’s no more suicide bombings. It seemed like it stopped like a switch. It just turned off. There have even been peace rallies for Israelis and Palestinians. … Israel is not a war-hungry place. [Israelis] don’t want any more land than God wants them to have.”

    He said he began to identify spiritually with the Holy Land with each visit. He appreciated the country’s diversity and friendly people.

    “We have Jews from all over the world here,” he said. “It’s like San Francisco, in terms of diversity.”

    He said most restaurants and major businesses have security guards who check suspicious-looking people for weapons and explosives.

    “I feel 100 percent safe,” Martisius said.

    Southern Israel is still a target for rockets and mortar bombs fired from the Gaza Strip.”

    • john h
      December 2, 2011, 7:08 pm

      Here is an excerpt, suitable for US MSM readers:

      “Israel is not a war-hungry place. [Israelis] don’t want any more land than God wants them to have. I feel 100 percent safe”

      How many lies can be packed into three short sentences, how much self-deception?

      Such nice people, such a nice place to be.. except for those other..

      He said most restaurants and major businesses have security guards who check suspicious-looking people for weapons and explosives.

      Why would people with weapons and explosives be expected to be at most restaurants and businesses?

      Don’t look to Kraft or the MSM for the real answer.

  21. GalenSword
    December 2, 2011, 12:24 am

    Seth Klarman’s David Project activities probably amount to the federal crime of conspiracy against rights.

  22. patm
    December 2, 2011, 1:24 pm

    I’m pleased to see a few commenters using the term “Judeophobia” instead of “anti-Semitism. I’ve begun to use “Judeophobia” on a regular basis.

    Here are my reasons: 1) it is the correct term 2) it is an action that will give comfort to Palestinians and other Arabs. 3) it will tick off Zionists everywhere, but especially in the Israeli government where, I’m told, the term is ‘red-lined’.

    • annie
      December 2, 2011, 1:41 pm

      i think it is an important phrase because of societies adaption to the concept of islamophobia, both the rejection and the embrace depending on the individual.

      • patm
        December 2, 2011, 1:57 pm

        Yes, annie, the word “Judeophobia” gives rise to an important symmetry. There’s our fourth reason.

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