While westerners were in the throes of holiday celebrations last weekend, Israel was immersed in a flurry of concern over a news broadcast that aired on Channel 2 Friday night about Naama Margolese, a 7 year old girl in the town of Beit Shemesh, who is afraid of walking to school for fear of being harassed by orthodox Jews in her community. The story was complete with dramatic soundtrack and a deeply concerned parental voice narrating. News travels fast:
[T]hese days many see it as a dark place where religious extremists defy authorities, intimidate children and attack the press. Trouble brewed for months before intensifying when a little girl caught everyone's attention on prime-time television news.
No worries, Netanyahu to the rescue. The Forward
Unsurprisingly, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, who clearly sensed where the political winds were blowing, went on a public relations push over the weekend to show he was taking action. Ynet reported that he “asked Internal Security Minister Yitzhak Aharonovitch on Saturday to instruct the police to act firmly against violent attacks targeting women in the public sphere.” In the aftermath of the Channel 2 story and the reaction, the ultra-Orthodox mayor of Beit Shemesh ordered workers to take down street signs that directed women to cross the street and “not linger” in front of a synagogue. As they did so, Haredim threw rocks and called the municipal workers ‘Nazis.’
Wait, did anyone mention that the Housing Ministry is building more and more exclusive communities for the religious segment of Israel's society? If Netanyahu is so concerned about civil liberties, what's he doing about the draconian racist legislation passed by the Knesset this year that includes neighborhood purity committees designed to preserve segregated neighborhoods? Isn't this his governing coalition? According to this excellent article in Haaretz today by Nurit Elstein, "there is widespread support for restricting civil rights".
Such developments in the history of political thought provided inspiration for the totalitarian state.........Politicians do not operate in a vacuum. They are well aware of the public's mood. Any public-opinion survey will find that there is widespread support for restricting civil rights. Public discourse is fraught with extremist statements denouncing Arabs, leftists and others. Knesset legislation converts cultural trends into legal norms.
...A government that views a minority's opinion as a nuisance that must be silenced, and criticism of the state as something akin to treason, is headed toward totalitarianism.
When Israel's cultural Petri dish yields such bills, some of which will become law, it can only mean that there is a real potential for fascism in this country, enacted by its majority. Recognition of this possibility must guide the behavior of the minority.
Of course, none of this is new to us. Not the rise of extremism in Israel's society. Not the growth of the Ultra Orthodox community, or of the racist settler community, nor the National Religious Party, and all with influence in the government. Lest we forget, Noam Sheizaf at 972, The myth of “Good Israel” vs. “Bad Israel”:
The Israeli middle class, the good ole’ boys, are the ones supporting the racist bills in the Knesset and the anti-democratic initiatives. In other words, we always had Rabbis like Shmuel Eliyahu and members of Knesset like Kahane’s student Michael Ben-Ari. The difference is that now, we have Kadima and Likud backing them.
Just like the settlements couldn’t have been built without the active support and participation of the Israeli center-left (including Labor party, which started the whole thing back in the 70′s), the current torrent of racist bills couldn’t have come without the help of Kadima, Labor and Likud members. And with all the ridiculous, xenophobic and undemocratic ideas they came up with, their public can’t get enough. When it comes to questions of human rights and democracy, there is no coalition and opposition in the Knesset: Almost everyone is on the same side.
So why now you might ask? Why the widespread MSM coverage today over previously documented social issues plaguing Israel's society for a long time? The Forward claimed "the government took action only after the media paid attention to Beit Shemesh" but that's not entirely true. The media covered another incident outside this same school in September, and so did we.
I think the Powers that be are concerned that the image of Israel's 'democracy' is alarming western supporters, and this is their way of combating that image. So, we are being treated to a media blitz of the PM coming to the rescue of little Naama. As Noam would say, the 'good vs the bad' in Israel's society. It's another 'look over there' moment, when anti democratic legislation is supported by the majority of Israel's society! You don't believe me? Listen to Jessica Montell, Executive Director of B'Tselem: 'The political climate in Israel is more hostile than ever'. While funding for NGOs championing human right's in Israel and Palestine are threatened with being silenced.
I think Israeli society is concerned too, and I do not intend to diminish that concern, but where are the resources invested to combat these problems? The end of the video mentions the website of the person who translated the dialogue into English.
The comment section is revealing:
Tzirel says:
December 25, 2011 at 9:36 PMNot only are politics involved, but the police themselves are greatly intimidated and fear to go too far into the areas that where the kitzonim live. These are the same people that rampage and set dumpsters on fire. I have a former neighbor whose arm was broken by members of this group when he tried to come to the aid of a policeman who was being brutally beaten by this group. The policeman ended up in the hospital with head injuries...
We really, really need Mashiach. Not that I want any enemies, but it’s so much easier when your enemies are not your brothers…
For when your "enemies are not your brothers" they are allowed to run wild tormenting Palestinians. Israel's resources would be better spent transferring their 'security personnel' towards policing domestic Jewish criminals.
And while our MSM offers up a good Bibi today (defender of human rights), they continue to pile the table with the usual feast of scare tactics and propaganda:
One official was quoted as saying Abbas was paving the way for Hamas and Islamic Jihad to take control not only over the PLO, but the entire West Bank as well.
Divert, divert, divert.
For those of you who didn't make it all the way thru the video, if you fast forward to to 8:20 you can hear a woman lament, 'A little Iran is developing here'.
(Hat tip Joseph Dana)
It’s only going to get worse.
I don’t know if you noticed but for about four lines of translated text we had about 1 to 2 seconds to read it. I just can’t read that fast. This was too much trouble to read. So what did I miss? Israel is going crazy. Or was there something really new here?
yes, i definitely noticed
If you have a Mac, just keep hitting the Space Bar to control the advance of the film.
It’s worth watching for those subtitles.
Maybe we could convince Shmuel or Avi to write up the conversation. That sick phuck in the car saying the 7-year-old tempted a ‘normal man’ is repellent.
i swear i tried, believe me. it just will not stop on some of those subtitles!
no. nothing ‘new’ here except the media deciding to pick up now on news that’s been around since october. persoanlly i think it has to do with:
link to mondoweiss.net
I used the pause button to follow it. I’d also like to read a translation of the road signs. Hey, where is MEMRI and CAMERA when you need one to do a good translation? Oh, never mind.
“The whole country is going to be Haredi?” They better start learning how to earn a living, then, because the US won’t be supporting that.
MRW, the US is already supporting that in many ways. Perhaps the media can detail all the ways Americans and their feckless Congress continue put their financial and naive moral support behind “that.”
Similar problems in arab sector. Wonder why that does not get the same attention. media conspiracy?
link to ynet.co.il
This is “divert, divert, divert” in NYT:
- Israel TV Station’s Troubles Reflect a Larger Political Battleground (December 26, by Bronner; news: not now, issue is lying there for weeks & months). On the financial problems of a news station versus political parties including Netanyahu. This Channel 10 had shown the Beit Shemesh report 2 days before, but not a single reference to it.
- Israel Risks New Turkish Ire with Recognition of Armenian Genocide (December 26, by Bronner, news), first of three articles on this this day.
- Israel Debates Whether Armenian Killings Genocide (December 26, news related, by AP) second article on this.
- Israeli Lawmakers Weigh Recognizing Armenian Genocide (December 26, news related, by Reuters) Third article on this, this day. Second article from press agency.
- A Pandora’s Box in the Middle East (OpEd, December 27, no news link)
No divert job is complete without mentioning Iran.
- Paul Disowns Extremists’ Views but Doesn’t Disavow the Support (December 25, no news) Smear of first resort: anti-Semitism.
So, three and a half days now since Channel 10 aired the report, NYT has found six deviations. But in the Beit Shemesh report: nothing fit to print.
actually eguard, i think they are diverting from the proposal, or lack thereof.
If Netanyahu is so concerned about civil liberties, what’s he doing about the draconian racist legislation passed by the Knesset this year that includes neighborhood purity committees designed to preserve segregated neighborhoods?
Those committees have always been used to keep haredim out of secular communities. The surveys that indicate support for restricting civil rights are talking about keeping the haredim and Arabs in communities separate from secular Jews.
Several years ago the Jewish Agency for Israel had an article about the Ka’adan case in which one of the members of the local committee admitted that neither Arabs nor Haredim were considered suitable candidates:
P.S. Mondoweiss mangles the concatenated links from the wayback machine and generates broken links. You’ll have to paste this one in your browser to read the whole article:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041118161034/http://www.jafi.org.il/papers/2000/march/jpmar20.htm
speaking of a media blitz little Naama is sweeping the msm today. usa today, wapo, seattle etc ..”We are fighting for the soul of the nation and the essence of the state,”
link to msnbc.msn.com
police clash too w/video
link to bbc.co.uk
whenever MSM starts “taking up” on the issue, the bells in my brain start ringing loudly: ‘beware” “beware”/attention, attention/achtung, achtung,”what’s going on”??
I don’t trust MSM, at all, and their “good/goodie “intentions.
I see this sudden attack on orthodox Jews as a prelude to a further attack on orthodox/fundamentlists in Iran. Another angle of scaring the public.
This time mostly female public.
Oh those bad, bad orthodox Jews, oh those bad , bad islam fundamentalists.
Oh, those poor women. We have to attack Iran to liberate those poor women.
We’ll bring our demoncracy to them.
yeah, me too. this has ‘save israel’s image’ written alllll over it. it’s a diver action. as josepd dana tweets:
anyway, thanks for commenting. this post went up right before midnight so i thought no one would notice it.
it’s all the rage in today’s msm. but here it’s yesterdays news.
I don’t know the ins and outs of Israeli society, but from my laic/ignorant point of view it looks like the MSM wants to portray to us a picture of perfect “vibrant democracy” of Israel that is overshadowed by those
“orthodox fanatics”.
No. The Israel ,(and its zionistc government) is an opressive, very agressive , brainwashed (-ing) state that ignores the most basic right of people who are deemed less human. Israel tramples on human rights from the day one it was born.
Now they are looking for scapegoats to divert an attention from its own shady businesses ( support of illegal settlements for example).
from my laic/ignorant point of view it looks like the MSM wants to portray to us a picture of perfect “vibrant democracy” of Israel that is overshadowed by those
“orthodox fanatics”.
well, that seems to be the ‘portrait’ of the week. but i tend to look at overall trends. none of this is new, none of it. (not even the story of kids being hasassed at this particular school) and some of these communities are famous for setting trash cans and tires on fire and rioting (off the top of my head there’s the new parking lot open on saturday story and the woman who starved her kid story, both huge riots and big news in israel).
but we never get news about the orthodox community in our news here, ever or rarely, so why now?
my approach to looking at the news, (especially when the story is not a time sensitive issue, this one for example broke in september) includes looking at when it comes out, and what news surrounds it. when a story breaks the friday night before a long holiday weekend…it’s intended to become grist for the mill. when that tv show is translated into english and posted in the LATIMES on monday morning it means munchkins in the background are pushing it. which reminds me:
link to mondoweiss.net
wasn’t it just a week ago bib was lambasting europeans for getting their noses into israel domestic affairs? over the inequality of palestinians-israelis? i guess this sweeps that ‘core issue’ right under the table.
Israel never learns , because they don’t want , they have NO intention to learn.
“Israel will “sooner or later” need to launch a large-scale operation against Hamas in the Gaza Strip, IDF Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Benny Gantz said on Tuesday, the third anniversary of Operation Cast Lead which was launched on December 27, 2008.
–(that’s their way of apologizing”).
“I believe that the state of Israel cannot continue to live under the active threat of Hamas in the Gaza Strip,” Gantz said. “Sooner or later, there will be no escape from conducting a significant operation. The IDF knows how to operate in a determined, decisive and offensive manner against terrorists in the Gaza Strip.”
–(400 killed children were of course “terrorists”)
Turning to other issues, Gantz said that in certain circumstances and during non-official military events, the IDF would be prepared to exempt religious soldiers from participation if they are uncomfortable hearing women sing.”
–( if they don’t want to listen , let them not to listen, who cares, we need soldiers to fight “terrorists”).
link to jpost.com
The jewish taliban get rowdier and more embarrassing for the so-called jewish-liberals:
link to haaretz.com
The video is worth watching for the schadenfreude alone.
There is one scene where one guy is taking pictures of the TV crew with cameras in both(!) his hands and he says something
‘I want the world to see what an anti-Semite looks like’
(Guffaw!)
Then the bit at the end, some kid in a car is yelling about how they are going to take over all of Israel…and another guy saying ‘this is our town now’ and the dumbfounded ‘secular’ Israeli saying…’but… but I was born here’
lol
Its like some sort of rampaging blob from an old horror film….that only knows how to call people ‘anti-Semites’ or push people off their land by force…that was useful at a time…but now even when you remove the Palestinians from the equation….they can’t stop it. Now its other Israelis who are anti-Semites! Now they are pushing other Israelis from the land that years before Palestinians were pushed off of!
jaja
WOW. This reminds me of a book about a tiny little ultra orthodox community in Iowa, that set up a kosher butchery and totally Fcked up the entire town…..Well worth the read..Pottsvile: A clash of cultures in heartland america…..I got it after, I think it was seafoid, linked to an interview excerpt with the author a couple months ago…..(just another reason why MW is the shit – more interesting stuff being linked to than any other site I know of)
And btw, these guys are nuts if they think the US is gonna subsidize a full-on jewish theocracy.
“these guys are nuts if they think the US is gonna subsidize a full-on jewish theocracy.”
US corrupted government IS subsidizing Israel already for many years.
Theocracy , democracy or demon-cracy.
US public is brainwashed, indifferent, ignorant and majority just don’t care.
Who do you think is going to object?
The US military and the Defense Lobby…..
The only political leader in America that would object is Ron Paul and he is being dissed right now at both Fox News and MSNBC. The joint bipartisan conclusion is he’s a “wacko” and “curmudgeon.”
you know though, citizen – i think people are calling BS on the “joint bipartisan conclusion” – i was in new hampshire this weekend, for christmas – he’s definitely picking up steam, think he is at 17-19%
Pottsville was so awful I have not been able to touch specifically kosher meat since. I wont go near it at Trader Joes. The videos of how they treated sick and wounded cows/steers at the Pottsville abattoir they were running was truly horrendous. Sickening. And how those haredi owners treated their workers was disgraceful as well.
“This reminds me of a book about a tiny little ultra orthodox community in Iowa, that set up a kosher butchery and totally Fcked up the entire town”
Want to explain that? How did they F it up? There were too many of them, weren’t there?
Bigot.
hophmi, do you know the story? i think he is talking about that highly publicized meat packing fiasco that brought the feds in. frankly, under these circumstances i think many of the towns people might agree “Fcked up the entire town” is an honest descriptor of events. the guys in jail now if i am not mistaken.
“hophmi, do you know the story? i think he is talking about that highly publicized meat packing fiasco that brought the feds in. frankly, under these circumstances i think many of the towns people might agree “Fcked up the entire town” is an honest descriptor of events. the guys in jail now if i am not mistaken.”
I know it very well. Is it your assertion that the hiring of illegal immigrants is the same thing as “f-ing up” a town or that the practice is limited to orthodox Jews?
I think either assertion is deeply bigoted.
you are not mistaken annie, cheers!
again, hophmi, your gonna have to come up with someone other than “bigot” to insult me. I do not care that others know Im not a fan of religious fanatics…..
Well, let me be clear – they “fcked up the whole town” in a number of different ways, as the books explains. (1)Their hiring and labor practices were disgusting, basically using slave labor in the buthcery and (2) they were assholes to nearly everyone in town. Did nothing to ingratiate themselves in the community and began to dominate local politics and demand special treatment – and they “could” because their butchery was a big part of the local economy.
Again, Hoph, you may think it is OK and normal to be an asshole to your neighbors (especially if they are non jews) but other people don’t like being looked through and treated like shit. You would be hard pressed to find a nicer bunch of people upon meeting them than in the US’s midwest, if these people say your an asshole, your an asshole.
Postville, not Pottsville. And the interesting part, the part relevant to the theme of this blog, occurred well before the animal cruelty scandal broke or the illegal immigrant scandal broke. Here’s from the afterword to the 2001 edition:
I’ve always thought “When Victims Rule” should have been the title for the book.
oops, thanks PTJ – its definitely Postville – must have pot on the brain….hmmm
And thanks for posting this, its exactly the dynamic I was talking about……
it was just a weenie bit more than ‘hiring of illegal immigrants’ hops, and nobody said anything about ‘limited to orthodox Jews’. small towns are small towns and when fed crimes and corruption invade small towns it f’ks them up. why are you defending this? you asked How did they F it up? and then answer your own question superimposed with the suggestion your answer was ours or something.
you’re choosing to ascribe your own words and assumptions onto others. stop it.
“it was just a weenie bit more than ‘hiring of illegal immigrants’ hops”
That was most of it. That’s what the raid was about. The rest was the typical stuff that happens when two cultures collide. I didn’t read the book, but I saw the documentary based on it, and part of the story is how the communities learn to work together.
So let me get this straight: It’s OK to refer to ethnicities or races of people coming into a town and messing it up? I think Shalom Rubashkin messed things up. I don’t think the “ultra-orthodox community” messed things up.
And when people like American refer to the community of Jews living there as a “sleazy bunch” and say that support for Rubashkin is some conspiracy to stem kosher food prices and talk about other Jews in Congress – excuse me, Robbins, but give me an f-ing break. You seem to have no capacity for recognizing bigotry in its most basic form.
Hophmi says:
I think Shalom Rubashkin messed things up. I don’t think the “ultra-orthodox community” messed things up.
Right, Hoph – so, using your logic it wasn’t “The Nazi’s” it was just Hitler that was the problem…….
And of course, that’s insane. If the rest of the orthodox disagreed with him, and didn’t follow along, ok – you may be right. But they did, and they recruited orthodox from all over to come there….so yea, it was the “orthodox community” in its totality, that Fcked the town up. That’s a a fact, jack.
hophmi, if you read the book referenced–written by a jew by the way–you will see in great detail just how they fu$%*d up the small town gentile town of Pottsville, IA, and how they treated the animals, and their gentile workers. You could also read the trial record.
And here’s a nice documentary on it: link to der.org
And, hophmi, just so you can get the flavor (before you get the book from Amazon), here’s what happened to the chief kosher guy, who brought his kosher buddies in to help him ruin the town–from wiki:
Sholom Mordechai Rubashkin (born October 6, 1959),[1] an ultra-Orthodox Jew of the Lubavitcher Hasidic movement,[2][3] is a former executive officer and vice president of Agriprocessors, a now-bankrupt slaughterhouse and meat packing plant in Postville, Iowa formerly owned by his father, Aaron Rubashkin. During his directorship of the plant, Agriprocessors grew into the largest kosher meat producer in the United States, but was also cited for issues involving animal treatment, food safety, environmental safety, child labor, and hiring of illegal workers.
In November 2009, Rubashkin was convicted of 86 counts of financial fraud, including bank fraud, mail and wire fraud and money laundering. In June 2010, he was sentenced to 27 years in prison. In a separate trial, he was acquitted of knowingly hiring underage workers. He is currently serving his sentence in Otisville, New York. In January 2011, his lawyers filed an appeal; on September 16, 2011, the appeals court ruled against Rubashkin.
Please show me a slaughterhouse that has not been cited for safety issues and has not hired illegal immigrants.
“Please show me a slaughterhouse that has not been cited for safety issues and has not hired illegal immigrants.”
How is that relevant?? Please show us where ANYONE said that this man is unique in the shitty way he operated his business and the effect that operation had on the town…
Never read the book but heard about it..what a sleezy bunch.
But there is some justice in the 27 year sentence for the head ortho Jew..
Or will be if his fellow Jews in congress don’t get his sentence reduced.
He must go free to avoid a hike in kosher food!!…gawd help us.
“In November 2009, Sholom Rubashkin was convicted in U.S. District Court in Dubuque, Iowa, before Judge Linda R. Reade of 86 charges of financial fraud, including bank fraud, mail and wire fraud and money laundering. Prosecutors had claimed the company intentionally defrauded St. Louis-based First Bank on a revolving $35 million loan by faking invoices from meat dealers, inflating the value of the company.[48]
On March 3, 2010, Judge Reade denied Rubashkin’s motion for dismissal of the financial corruption charges and a request for a new trial.[49]
On June 22, 2010, Rubashkin was sentenced to 27 years in prison. Prosecutors had asked for a 25-year sentence, Rubashkin’s attorney for a six-year term.[50] Rubashkin was also ordered to make $26,852,152.51 in restitution, special assessments of $8,600 were imposed, and he must serve a five-year term of supervised release after the prison term.[51] His lawyers have filed an appeal.[52] In October 2010, Judge Reade rejected Sholom Rubashkin’s motion for a new trial.[53]
In May 2011, Sholom Rubashkin used political connections to seek a rehearing and reduction of his sentence; among others, Reps. Anthony Weiner and Jerrold Nadler (D-NY) lobbied for a review of the case; Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-FL Rep.) lobbied US Attorney General Eric Holder personally on Rubashkin’s behalf; and Rep. Yvette Clark (D-NY) argued that her constituents in Brooklyn, the Rubashkin family base, deemed the punishment too harsh and feared a hike in the price of kosher food
This is another discussion that is going to show how antisemitic some people here are. Once again, if anyone can show that the practice of hiring illegal immigrants, particularly in industries like this one, is both not widespread and limited to orthodox Jews, please do so.
Otherwise, drop the bigotry.
This is the kind of case that should draw outrage for at least two reasons. The first reason is that the main victims were the illegal immigrants Rubashkin employed. They were the targets of the raid, and the Justice Department set up special on-site courts to quickly process their cases and draw quickie guilty pleas and agreements to be deported from defendants who almost certainly were not given adequate time to think about their cases. The vast majority of them were deported.
It’s important to understand that while Rubashkin certainly committed a criminal offense by falsifying business records to get a loan (and that this was the focus of his criminal case, not the immigration violations, which were dropped, or the child labor violations, for which he was acquitted in state court), I can think of few worse examples of overcharging and excessive sentencing outside of federal narcotics prosecutions. The 86 counts of bank, wire and mail frauds are essentially all related to the same crime; the government decided to charge Rubashkin by the document: one count for each falsified document. This would not normally be remarkable, except that it influenced Rubashkin’s sentence under the US Sentencing Guidelines, and resulted in a 27-year sentence (two MORE years than the Government requested) in a case where there really is no discernible victim other than the bank, and in which the bank was made whole through restitution. There’s also a good deal of evidence, apparently, that the judge in the case was biased because of her involvement in the initial raid on Agriprocessors.
Just to put this in perspective, Rubashkin’s sentence exceeded that of both Jeffrey Skilling, the head of Enron, and Dennis Koslowski, the head of Tyco, both men whose crimes caused greater loss (Skilling about $80 million and Koslowski about $150 million), never made full restitution, and created a lot of victims other than a big bank.
And let’s be very clear. At least on the question of whether he received a fair trial, Rubashkin has a lot more than the Lubavitch/Haredi community behind him, where he retains support principally because of his family’s philanthropy. The ACLU, the NACDL, and other civil liberties organizations, have supported his application for a new trial. On the question of sentencing, six former attorney generals have written in support of a reduction.
link to nytimes.com
once again hophmi, if you can show anyone here claimed that the practice of hiring illegal immigrants, particularly in industries like this one, was not widespread and limited to orthodox Jews, please do so. otherwise your accusation of racism is gonna fall like the kerplunk that it is.
btw, what do you think of the media making such a big deal about this current event in israel? do you think they are being anti semitic? do you think they are throwing the haredi community under a bus to polish bibis image? do you like the way he came to the rescue of the little girl?
or the image of israel’s secular society being under siege, does the victim thing thrill you?
it certainly does distract from israel gearing for effective separation of east jerusalem palestinians doesn’t it?
divert divert divert
Great. So this guy got screwed in the Justice system. Too bad, so sad. Here’s a tissue.
You still haven’t proved your bullshit claim that Dan Crowther saying he f’ed up the town is bigotry. He did fuck up the town. Even the mayor said that the federal investigation — which derivied directly from his crimes — turned the town “topsy turvy.”
Or is it, in your mind, that anyone who criticizes a Jew is, by that fact alone, a bigot??
And when are you going to get around to condemn the orthodox Jews harrasing this 7-year old girl?? Or do you support their views? People want to know…
Yea, hoph, “inquiring minds want to know”
Oh can it hopi….
These guys were bigoted assholes from the day they moved into that town and on top of that they were crooked sleeze.
If you read even excerpts from the book you can see the ortho Jews were the bigots…not the other way around.
Obviously I don’t support the views of these crazy ultra-orthodox fanatics. What would give you the idea that I do?
What disgusts me the most is that the ultra-Ortho in the car, as well as others are saying they are “normal” men who fear being sexually tempted by provocatively dressed (ie not according to their prescription) pre-pubescent little girls. No wonder some of their women are going for the burqa! They want to protect their kids from these perverts.
American/western men, for a change, are totally deprived of their masculinity by being exposed, all the time, to sex and sexual images that are bombarding them from all over. They became like little, male version of bimbos, who think that their lives should evolve around getting laid, and pumping their big muscles in the gym in hopes of attracting pretty, young females.
The oversexuality of western societies is one of the main reasons of their slow demise.
I completely disagree. I think that Western society is just starting to get to a healthy view of human sexuality. What the society needs work on is in treating all humans in an ethical manner.
Healthy view??
Look at the number of divorces, abortions, STdiseases??
Some people are so obsessed with sex that they think only that counts in life.
Many girls and women dress like sluts on daily bases, many men think that they are always entitled to the” piece of meat”.
History proved to us ,many times , that sexually demoralised societies are doomed to fail. And history is a great teacher, but we are an awful students.
“Healthy view??”
Yes. Compared to suppression, patriarchal oppression, the denial of it as a normal part of human functioning? Yes. Absolutely.
“Look at the number of divorces, abortions, STdiseases??”
So? Many of those problems are caused by people have a warped and skewed view of sex, of the kind that is on display in this story.
“Some people are so obsessed with sex that they think only that counts in life.”
And they are more likely than not to have grown up in a situation where human sexuality was not viewed as a part of human nature and was never tought to respect it, themselves, and their partners. Why are such situations so common? Because of the prevailing views that it is something vulgar, dirty or to be ashamed of, or, on the opposite end, a “gift from god” that must be suppressed, denied or controlled.
“Many girls and women dress like sluts on daily bases,…
Well, I think that girls should dress in an age-appropriate manner. Women can dress in an attractive manner, even in a sexy fashion, and that doesn’t make them sluts, nor are they dressing “like sluts.” There is nothing wrong in being sexually attractive. It’s a normal part of life.
But the label “dress like sluts” is bullshit. The label is empty of meaning. Hell, look at the Orthodox perverts in this story, thinking that 8 year olds are dressing like sluts. That’s such crap.
“…many men think that they are always entitled to the’ piece of meat’”
Like I said before, the society hasn’t tought people to treat each other ethically. That’s what this is a reflection of. But when fathers care too much that some woman is “dressing like a slut” and fails to teach his son how to properly treat a woman, that’s what happens.
“History proved to us ,many times , that sexually demoralised societies are doomed to fail.”
What is a “sexually demoralized societ[y]“?? Because it seems to me like these pigs who are going after 8 year olds are the poster boys for a sexually “moralized” society, and if the choice is between oppressed pigs spitting on 8 year olds because they make the old perverts think of sex and a society that accepts human sexuality as a natural part of human existence that must be enjoyed and exercised responsibly, I’ll take the latter any day of the week, even if it is “sexually demoralized” in your view.
You live in your own make -believe/ideal word. What can I tell . Dream on.
I just write about what I see.
History backs me up unfortunately.
No, I live in the real world, and I see that there is not much of a step from what you apparently think is a proper “sexually moralized” society, and a bunch of religious goons calling 7-year old girls “whore” and “slut” because wearing modest clothing isn’t modest enough for their religiously perverted view of human sexuality.
So you are bothered (rightly so) by religion goons calling 7 year old…(..),
but on the other hand you think that it is ok for a 2 -3-4 year old to parade in front of the media audience dressed like a whore???
And you are fine if 13-15 years old parade on the streets dressed in a way that shows most of their intimate possesions for every, drooling with excitement , Joe or Ken to see??
And you think it is very healthy sexual way if 13-16 years old engage in sexual activites because people like you think it is just fine??
“but on the other hand you think that it is ok for a 2 -3-4 year old… ”
“And you are fine if 13-15 years old…”
“And you think it is very healthy sexual way if 13-16 years old … ”
Is it that you are stupid or can you just not read??
Nowhere did I say anything to support any of these lies. (Indeed, I specifically talked about children dressing in an age-appropriate manner because I suspected that someone embracing human sexuality would send your pea-brain in a tizzy… and I was right.)
Nowhere was I talking about children or teenagers. So until you grow some character and are able to have a decent coversation without lying about other people, you should mind your own buisness.
dumvitaestspesest, you are attributing things to woody he never said. for example he never said “it is ok for a 2 -3-4 year old to parade in front of the media audience dressed like a whore” etc etc.
i do not know if you are willfully misunderstanding his point or what but before this escalates into a flame war i’d like to suggest we not make this anymore personal than it already is..
thanks
Thanks, Annie.
I gave him few examples of the “healthy ways of human sexuality” in the West, that Woody so much brags about. Those are part of the “healthy ways”.
Very typical, I may add. Like it or not. That’s reality.
No, you didn’t. You lied. But that’s all I am going to say about it.
I don’t know how that little girl was dressed,but why would any parent sexualize children anyway?
“I don’t know how that little girl was dressed,but why would any parent sexualize children anyway?”
There is no excuse for sexualizing children.
“why would any parent sexualize children anyway?”
I don’t know but there are these pageants for female children that look somewhat sexualized to me….they makeup and dress up girls who are 6 and 7 years old or younger….it’s revolting I think to have a child involved in competitions based on performing and looks at that age. The young girl who was found murdered some years ago and whose parents came under suspicion was into that I believe. Her mother had been some kind of former beauty queen I think.
Those” beauty pagents” reveal the overall stupidity of American, so called ,”culture”. The classic example of selfishness, vanity, emptiness, superficiality and etc. When I see it, I feel like giving a good kick in the behinds of those “mommies”.
Bunch of idiots admired and watched by another bunch of idiots.
link to youtube.com
So American MSM is kvetching about orthodox Jews spitting on 7 year old,
but in the meantime, it is promoting shows in which a few year old girls are dressed as prostitutes ( from “Pretty women” film), and parading in front of the millions of viewers.
Another proof of American MSM hypocrisy , and totally dumb American parents oversexualizing their kids.
link to youtube.com
So American MSM is kvetching about orthodox Jews spitting on 7 year old
nah, first the american media was kvetching about how israel’s image was tanking because of the crazy settlers and the expansion, only then was it diverted to this.
as for parent over sexualizing their kids, i agree and don’t support it. but then i have never actually met any american kids who are in those beauty pageants. i don’t think it is altogether a regular thing for most parents.
Yea, Jon Benet Ramsey….. really crazy story, I think both parents have died as well
American/western men, for a change, are totally deprived of their masculinity by being exposed, all the time, to sex and sexual images
speaking as a western woman i can attest that in my view not all American/western men are totally deprived of their masculinity. i know a few masculine men. of course my definition of masculinity might not be the same as other peoples, but whatever.
I hope, Annie that you do not equal masculinity with sexuality:)
And yes, overall ( there are always exceptions of course) western men are deprived of masculinity.
If a men is too focused on his external ” looks”, on his abilities and possiblities to conquer the opposite sex, on his ambitions to climb up the career ladder and fill up his ego with constant, fake praises of others ,then he loses his masculine side of a warrior, protector, decision maker, responsible , honest and honorable guy, instead he becomes sort of a gummy puppet, who just drifts whenever a current takes him, trying only to please and to be pleased.
I hope, Annie that you do not equal masculinity with sexuality:)
no, but i very much equate it with being acquainted (in touch with, as in sensitive/receptive) with ones own feminine nature.
to each her own and all that. my idea of masculinity might not be the same as yours, but i don’t think it is unusual either.
I define masculinity as follows: Integrity, chivalry, self confidence and respect for others. I should make clear, that I define chivalry as being a gentleman, not being one of these “oh women can’t do that” guys – BUT, if you are willing to walk past an older woman carrying something heavy without offering assistance, shame on you.
As for the sexuality part – I know some gay guys that are the definition of masculine, right down to be them being able to whoop my butt. Funny story, before don’t ask don’t tell, I had a platoon sergeant come right and say he was gay – he was about 6ft2, 220 pounds and was a Marine Scout Sniper — possibly the scariest guy ive ever encountered–NO ONE was gonna question his “manly” bona fides, and truth be told, it was the best thing alot of those “super manly” marines could have heard or seen. And just to highlight the respect he had, everyone on base knew, including the officers, no one even dreamt about “reporting him.” So, no, sexuality has absolutely nothing to do with it, I hope my lil story doesnt offend anyone…..
Just one quick add on to my definition of masculine: you must have at least three tools, and be willing to drink a cold budweiser on a hot day! haha JK :)
dumvi
Now that you’ve defined masculinity for us, and what you believe western men have lost due to sexual ‘freedom’, perhaps you’ll inform us how you define femininity and tell us what western wimmin have lost due to same. Then just throw in whether you’re celibate/a nun, ok?
You don’t have to be sarcastic about ,and my intimate life is none of your business.
If you think that a culture that treats women as sexual objects, as a piece of ass is something that you fully endorse, that you are at the right spot.
Enjoy while you can.
Here is pretty intersting and funny article on the subject titled :”profiting from death of masculinity”.
fragments:
..”Effeminism – Many women say they want a sensitive man. Well, you got him. He wears a baby papoose, knows whom Heidi Klum is wearing, and screams with delight when he sees Samantha from Sex and the City. Congratulations, you have a beefy girlfriend. This seems like an unnatural state for the burly male of the species, but increasingly common. …
…Sexual conquest – Sex with lots of new women can validate manhood in this testosterone wasteland. Sure the boys from Jersey Shore tan, gel and moisturize, but they are alpha males conquering new territory, not unlike New World settlers. If only Ponce de Leon had Ed Hardy T-shirts…”
link to ideafaktory.com
If you think that a culture that treats women as sexual objects, as a piece of ass is something that you fully endorse, that you are at the right spot.
dim, do you live here? do you think the sum total of our culture wrt women is treating them as sexual objects? does it occur to you there are women here not treated as sexual objects? because 1/2 of this culture is made up of women and as a woman raised here i can honestly say most of my life i have not felt like an ‘object’, sexual or otherwise. i think you are out of bounds wrt speaking for our whole culture. i get offended when people make these types of generalizations about other cultures, and frankly i find many of your judgements about my culture insulting and offensive.
dumvi
my last sentence was a jibe at what appears to be either a lack of understanding of what actually is going on in our parts (or a deliberate focus on the worst elements) and the sweeping generalisations you make. And your obnoxious assumptions that any of us here are happy with those ‘worst’ elements – that’s downright offensive.
I tend largely to a similar pov to that of Woody. But our less repressed west will have trips and stumbles before it matures. You seem to tend towards a world where sexual indiscretions were swept under a carpet, as also were sexual assaults. Women and children suffered in silence, homosexuals were closeted and could have few if any proper relationships. In my view things are moving in a better direction. The man who assaulted my son and his friends when he was just 10 served only 15months. Ten years earlier it would have been less. Now over 20 years on, it would be much longer. Just think of the horrors inflicted on women and children of your faith by those whom they were supposed to be able to trust above all – the priesthood. Openness and mature adult choice are a good, not a wrong. Religious excess – as is obvious in the above video – and repression can damage one’s sexuality.
American/western men, for a change, are totally deprived of their masculinity by being exposed, all the time, to sex and sexual images that are bombarding them from all over. They became like little, male version of bimbos, who think that their lives should evolve around getting laid, and pumping their big muscles in the gym in hopes of attracting pretty, young females.
There’s nothing like making an overblown generalization about an entire gender to prove how progressive you are, right?
And I should note that I am female, but the bigoted generalization about men caught my eye as well.
Of course it is a generalization. You may agree with it or not.
This is nothing about proving how “progressive I am “.
It is a sad reality that I am witnessing, and which you , in your ignorance ,seem not to notice. Your choice.
Of course you aren’t proving your progressivism. You’re proving your own bigotry. That’s my point. You are making overblown bigoted generalizations about all American/western men from your perfect little observation point overlooking the whole of the Western World and then have the audacity/stupidity to claim that other people are ignorant if they don’t agree with your “wisdom”. You really need to get over yourself. You haven’t even begun to see the “reality” of EVERY American/Western male and you are delusional if you think you have. (And if you really think you have, then maybe you should start applying the terms of “slut” “whore” “bimbo” and “cow” -that you seem so fond of throwing about here – to yourself.)
I’ve heard the same kind of overgeneralized shit said about Arab men , or black men. or third world men, etc. It’s wrong in those cases, and its wrong here. It doesn’t get any prettier just because you are tarring men in the so called first world. And it certainly ain’t smart.
tree,
Did I step on your toes with something ,unintentionally, that you are getting so pissed off??
I am writing about certain cultural phenomena that is happening whether you like/see it or not. The fact that you don’t see it or deny existence of it does not change anything about it.
Being brainwashed be MSM is not an excuse of not seeing certain trends and manipulations. You obviously are blind to it by political correcteness that is part of the problem.
I am writing about certain cultural phenomena that is happening whether you like/see it or not.
ok, let’s review this ‘certain’ cultural phenomena in your own words:
American/western men, for a change, are totally deprived of their masculinity
as in completely. as in there are simply no masculine men in American/western society. and this is ‘whether we like/see it or not’
and that would include my dad my brother and child’s father and every other american man i might ever have met.
being exposed, all the time, to sex and sexual images that are bombarding them from all over.
so, all the time where ever i turn we are bombard from all over with sex and sexual images. so when i took a walk today up on the mountain and a man passed us jogging i suppose that would have been me bombarding him with my sexual nature i suppose. that is happening whether you like/see it or not. just part of my culture.
gee, i really didn’t think i would be defending western men today but here i am, aghast.
there are pockets of sanity even here in american culture and one can enjoy oneself on occasion without being bombarded by sexual images. or maybe not. i was looking at those baby orchids today and they looked very sexy. and there are some very sexy fruits, like figs! maybe i am bombarded by sex all the time! one of the sexiest things is clay..depending on how you handle it.
AAAHHHHH
Annie, look up orchidectomy! :-D
(Well, I’ve seen it spelt with the d in it)
dumvita has a valid point but she’s making it all wrong.
We do live in weird sort of society that is simultaneously repressive and oversexualized. I mean advertisers won’t dream of selling you a car without implying that free breasts and behinds come with the deal etc.
And yes a boxer will not spill his seeds the night before a big fight for a very good reason.
Problem is that the sixties told us to ‘make love not war’ – instead we made sex and cold-war. Several generations of women think that freedom is about wearing a short skirt with no nickers. A chunk of male society is sex-addicted and are in denial of it. Both men and women in america are sexually immature. What a waste!
That’s my brief 2 cents on the sad state of western sexuality. Of course i could write volumes on this but I got better things to do with my life, like blog for palestine on mw hahahahahaha – tis true!
Did I step on your toes with something ,unintentionally, that you are getting so pissed off??
I’m not pissed off, but I am negatively impressed by your pomposity and your bigotry. And you still seem to be unaware of it. How sad.
I am writing about certain cultural phenomena that is happening whether you like/see it or not. The fact that you don’t see it or deny existence of it does not change anything about it.
Despite your ignorant insistence otherwise, I get what you are clumsily pointing at, as I would venture to guess that others here understand also, and I’ve commented on the phenomenon myself in other threads. But I haven’t been so blind and bigoted and full of myself enough to ascribe it to ALL Western men at ALL times because that is just ignorant stereotyping. This may come as a great shock to you, but the fact that you don’t recognize the fallacies in your thinking does not make you somehow wiser than everyone else; it simply makes you more prone to engaging in negative stereotyping, which is what you did in your comments above.
Being brainwashed be MSM is not an excuse of not seeing certain trends and manipulations. You obviously are blind to it by political correcteness that is part of the problem.
And here again you are making assumptions about other people that you don’t know on the flimsiest of evidence. You have assumed because I disagree with your broad and negative over-generalization about men, that you know exactly what I think and who has “brainwashed” me. You aren’t any good at mind reading, so please, give it up. Sadly, you are a small thinker who for some reason thinks she needs to belittle others to prove her own assumed superiority. Try not assuming that you either know everything or know what others think just because they disagree with your bigoted statements.
“But when community activist Rabbi Dov Lipman asked one protester why they were focusing on the way small girls dress, he was told “even an eight-year-old draws my eyes”.”
link to guardian.co.uk
Note this article was published on 31st October 2011 by the British msm.
Well, that’s sick. If an eight year old’s dress draws your eyes in that manner you need to be locked up
Those stupid, brainless moms/cows could be locked up too.
I get so pissed when I see that
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
It’s crazy how our moral world works: those deranged from repression cuss and call all moderates deranged.
taxi, this is the very same town! this is what i mean by this being an old story, so WHY are they resurrecting it now over the holidays of all times?
Monday 31 October 2011
more at the link
and of course all the attention brought it to a head and all hell broke loose yesterday with the police. the timing of this tv show and media glitz, imho, is manufactured.
annie,
The secular israelis and their PR and media cabal know very well how bad zealotry is to a brand name – I mean to say: utterly catastrophic. Them media guys and gals in starched suits decided to wage war against the haredim now and demonize them – disassociate ‘modernist’ israelis from jewish haredim insanity – doing it now cuz the haredimz outtacontrol and the internet too is outtacontrol cuz it’s frigging everywhere! I reckon the modernists are tryna damage-control by tactical aggressive/offensive disassociation: tryna save what little is left of brandisrael’s reputation – and with it, the reputation of both israelis and jews.
Will the modernists in israel succeed in this method?
No.
It’s too late – you cannot negotiate with zealots and you cannot just ignore them if their number is large. But try they must, the modernists. Even try ugly they must.
And for sure yes definitely a steady increase of heradim-gone-wild videos and stories have been turning up much, especially like in the last three months or so.
There’s definitely a war of ideas and of bodies is going on in the land of poison milk and stolen honey.
Truth is, the haredim are too powerful now and too many – and the red line drawn is clearly visible to both the modernists and the zealots: and this fissure between them is a prelude, the first step towards civil war, history so tells us. And if this red line is visibly being drawn more and more right there in front of numerous cameras on busy streets, then it will become visible sooner or later within other areas of israelis society and especially in the idf.
Poor Apartheid israel. Just keeps scoring one own-goal after another. Poor poor isreal boohoohooo.
we think the same on this issue taxi. what i am trying to figure out is why are they saying it now.
re media cabal know very well how bad zealotry is to a brand name – I mean to say: utterly catastrophic.
do you think trumping this now is being used as a distraction away from what i linked to upthread
amazing link:
dated dec 23rd. this is happening NOW.
Yes annie, the OCCUPATION is what umbilicaly joins the modernist to the zealots. Despite their fatalistic differences.
Pre-emptive Branding campaign for the product right before a long holiday weekend. Rolled out in plenty of time for the Friday news crews, so that they don’t have to spend too much staff-time investigating current happenings in I/P or remembering anniversaries of past Christmas weekends (like Cast Lead). Netanyahu, who responded to this months’ old outrage just in time for America’s holiday haze, believes that the American public is an easy thing to manage.
What I’d like to see you report on is how many of this (apparently small) group of extremists are anti-Zionists, the kind you enjoy promoting as proof that Zionism is against Jewish law.
They are religious fundamentalists who practice what they preach,and believe their Bibles admonitions unlike the religious(ho ho) secularites who wallow in hypocrisy and use religion as a useful cudgel when it suits their interests.
“What I’d like to see you report on is how many of this (apparently small) group of extremists are anti-Zionists, the kind you enjoy promoting as proof that Zionism is against Jewish law.”
What does that matter? They could believe that the moon is made of green cheese and it wouldn’t change one bit their disgusting religion-inspired views about little girls.
What I’d like to know is why you haven’t condemned them on this thread. You could take the time out to (idiotically) call Dan Crowther a bigot (twice) because he correctly pointed out that Rubashkin’s crimes f’ed up the town, but haven’t condemned these pigs. Why?
the kind you enjoy promoting as proof that Zionism is against Jewish law.
are you talking to me? i know nothing about jewish law nor do i recall ever ‘promoting’ anything as proving zionism was against jewish law. why would i get into an argument about something i know nothing about.
I meant your movement collectively, specifically people like Hostage who find common cause with those who believe Jews should live under oppression rather than have self-determination.
I meant your movement collectively, specifically people like Hostage who find common cause with those who believe Jews should live under oppression rather than have self-determination.
In our previous discussions, the only person who mentioned living under oppression is Hophmi. I simply repeated the instruction of many of the foremost Jewish sages who claimed that Jews were not supposed to leave the exile. In fact the sages, including Maimonides, cited Isaiah 9:1 regarding “a nation wandering in darkness. I never said that there was a legal requirement for Jews to remain in a country where they are being oppressed. Hophmi simply made that up.
The right of self-determination of peoples was codified in the UN Charter and the Declaration of Principles of International Law Concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation Among States in Accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. Neither of those documents recognizes the right to migrate to another country and establish a sovereign state there which is independent of the indigenous population. In fact, they recognize the free association or integration with an independent State or the emergence into any other political status freely determined by a people as valid modes of implementing the right of self-determination by that people. The Zionists chose to be integrated into the new state of Palestine under the terms of the League of Nations Mandate.
In most civilized legal systems it is recognized that legal rights may only be exercised conditioned upon compliance with legal duties, but the State of Israel has refused to honor its minority rights obligations and continues to violate the principle of self-determination of the Palestinian people in accordance with the General Assembly’s Declaration:
I think Zionists spend so much time shreying about living under oppression and Jewish self-determination in order to divert attention away from their own offenses against others.
Hostage underscores the operative stances:
“The Zionists chose to be integrated into the new state of Palestine under the terms of the League of Nations Mandate.”
“[...] the State of Israel has refused to honor its minority rights obligations and continues to violate the principle of self-determination of the Palestinian people in accordance with the General Assembly’s Declaration:”
“I think Zionists spend so much time shreying about living under oppression and Jewish self-determination in order to divert attention away from their own offenses against others.”
the State of Israel has refused to honor its minority rights obligations and continues to violate the principle of self-determination of the Palestinian people
this reminds me of an article i read this morning american directed us to
Ending UNRWA and Advancing Peace by Elliott Abrams – Dec 2011
he says the weirdest crap.
the palestinians were not refugees from WW2. wtf?
this is a framing nightmare. it is not UNRWA’s responsibility to solve the problem. this ‘problem’ israel is obliged to solve.
“I simply repeated the instruction of many of the foremost Jewish sages who claimed that Jews were not supposed to leave the exile. In fact the sages, including Maimonides, cited Isaiah 9:1 regarding “a nation wandering in darkness. I never said that there was a legal requirement for Jews to remain in a country where they are being oppressed. Hophmi simply made that up.”
I never claimed you argued it was a legal requirement. I claimed that what you argued amounted to saying that Jews should remain living under oppression rather than exercise self-determination. Your example was Jews oppressed by Muslims in Yemen. You agreed with Maimonides’ very outdated opinion that it was better to live under that oppression than leave exile. This argument is a repellent and discredited one that was used by many rabbis to argue that Jews should remain in Europe during the Holocaust. That’s the argument you’re making, mister.
I claimed that what you argued amounted to saying that Jews should remain living under oppression . . .
You were trying to reframe what I had actually said, and you continue to do so.
our example was Jews oppressed by Muslims in Yemen.
No I provided a link to the applicable passage in the Talmud and simply noted that the sages, like Maimonides, had stated that people shouldn’t become impatient and try to end the exile prematurely on their own initiative. I didn’t say anything about the Jews remaining in Yemen under oppression:
link to mondoweiss.net
You agreed with Maimonides’ very outdated opinion that it was better to live under that oppression than leave exile. This argument is a repellent and discredited one that was used by many rabbis to argue that Jews should remain in Europe during the Holocaust. That’s the argument you’re making, mister.
And once again, nobody mentioned the “Holocaust”, except for you. I’ve never objected to the Jews leaving Europe for other countries. I’ve provided ample evidence here that it was the policy of the Zionists on the Jewish Agency Executive who actually objected to the Evian Conference efforts to save them. I also pointed out that religious Jews believe in the merits of those who are martyred for their faith and that it is distasteful to label it a “Holocaust”, while saying their beliefs were discredited.
P.S. If a religious refugee had wanted to go somewhere, beside Palestine; and the Zionist Executive foreclosed that option in order to prevent competition for scarce monetary contributions; isn’t that a violation of the refugees human rights and self-determination?
” I didn’t say anything about the Jews remaining in Yemen under oppression:”
No, of course, you left it out, because it would have hurt the validity of your argument.
“And once again, nobody mentioned the “Holocaust”, except for you.”
Of course, you didn’t mention it, because you would then have to acknowledge the bankruptcy of your argument.
“I’ve never objected to the Jews leaving Europe for other countries. ”
Maybe you haven’t, but you use the same arguments as those who did against Israel’s existence.
“I’ve provided ample evidence here that it was the policy of the Zionists on the Jewish Agency Executive who actually objected to the Evian Conference efforts to save them.”
Interesting. A conference in which the Jewish Agency was not seated amongst the delegates and which came to no agreement on any program of saving Jewish refugees (to the disappointment of Jews worldwide, including the Zionists) is the example you cite for how Zionist leaders during the war prejudiced the emigration of Jews from Germany and Austria. Of course, you fail to mention that no one rescue as many Jews from Europe as the Zionists did in the five years leading up to the Evian Conference.
Whatever “hostility” Zionists showed at Evian (and it appears to have been wholly justified under the circumstances) has nothing to do with the fact that Evian accomplished nothing.
Here’s the memorandum of the Jewish Agency to the Evian conference.
link to zupdom.com
Which part do you disagree with?
“If a religious refugee had wanted to go somewhere, beside Palestine; and the Zionist Executive foreclosed that option in order to prevent competition for scarce monetary contributions”
Total nonsense in light of the memorandum I just posted.
Total nonsense in light of the memorandum I just posted.
Hophmi, the documentary record also includes the minutes of the Jewish Agency meeting on the subject, the report of the representative of the Jewish Agency who attended the Conference, and the letter from the managing director of the Jewish Agency Central Bureau for the Settlement of German Jews, to Rabbi Stephen Wise on the subject:
*The Jewish Agency’s Executive met on June 26, 1938 to discuss the Evian Conference goal of raising Allied attention to the need for efforts and funding in order to resettle endangered Jews in other countries. Boas Evron wrote that:
“It was summed up in the meeting that the Zionist thing to do ‘is belittle the Conference as far as possible and to cause it to decide nothing… We are particularly worried that it would move Jewish organizations to collect large sums of money for aid to Jewish refugees, and these collections could interfere with our collection effort.” Ben Gurion said “No rationalization can turn the conference from a harmful to a useful one. What can and should be done is to limit the damage as far as possible.” — See Boas Evron, “Jewish State or Israeli Nation?”, Indiana University Press, 1995, page 260
*Here is a quote from a letter written by Georg Landauer, the managing director of the Jewish Agency Central Bureau for the Settlement of German Jews, to Rabbi Stephen Wise, the Co-Chair of the American Zionist Emergency Council, dated February 13, 1938:
I am writing this letter at the request of Dr. Weizmann because we are extremely concerned lest the problem be presented in a way which would prejudice the activity for Eretz Israel. Even if the conference does not propose immediately after its opening other countries but Eretz Israel as venues for Jewish emigration, it will certainly arouse a public response that could put the importance of Eretz Israel in the shade. . . . We are particularly worried that it would move Jewish organizations to collect large sums of money for the aid of Jewish refugees, and these collection efforts would interfere with our collection efforts. S. Beit Zvi, Post-Uganda Zionism and the Holocaust, Tel Aviv: Bronfmann, 1977, page 178 – cited in Boas Evron, “Jewish State or Israeli Nation?”, Indiana University Press, 1995, page 260
*There was also the statement by Menachem Ussishkin in the meeting of the Zionist Executive on June 26, 1938 regarding the report of Mr. Greenbaum:
“He is also concerned at the Evian Conference. . . . Mr. Greenbaum is right in stating that there is a danger that the Jewish people also will take Eretz Israel off its agenda, and this should be viewed by us as a terrible danger. He hoped to hear in Evian that Eretz Israel remains the main venue for Jewish emigration. All other emigration countries do not interest him. . . . The greatest danger remains that attempts will be made to find other territories for Jewish emigration.” — also cited in Boas Evron, “Jewish State or Israeli Nation?”, Indiana University Press, 1995, page 260
*Weizmann had demonstrated an uncanny power in 1940 to estimate the number of Jews Palestine would be able to accommodate after the war. His plans didn’t include the six million:
No, of course, you left it out, because it would have hurt the validity of your argument.
It doesn’t effect the validity at all, since the Three Oaths did not require Jews to live in Yemen. Maimonides rebuked Jacob Ben Nethanel Fayyumi for entertaining the suspicion that an unlearned pretender going about the countryside was indeed the Messiah who would end the exile. In fact the Rabbis cited Isaiah 9:1 and advised that the Jews were a wandering nation that would remain in exile, that the persecutions Jews eventually encountered wherever they lived were predicted by the prophets, and that they would eventually cease. It was also an article of faith with many that political rule would be restored to the Jews through the personal agency of a redeemer, the Messiah.
“And once again, nobody mentioned the “Holocaust”, except for you.” . . . Of course, you didn’t mention it, because you would then have to acknowledge the bankruptcy of your argument.
The only one here with a bankrupt argument is you. The Rabbis never said that the halakhah required the Jews to stay in Europe, only that they shouldn’t try to immigrate en masse and attempt to establish political rule over Palestine on their own initiative. In fact, many Rabbis and Jews left Europe for other countries besides Palestine. In the previous thread you and Witty tried to make these same silly arguments that there was universal oppression and a universal desire to return to Palestine, even under atheist leadership, if need be. That was simply not the case.
“… the fact that Evian accomplished nothing. ”
Hophmi, staying out of your Zionist discussion with Hostage for a minute, the way I read it, it accomplished sending a message to Hitler that he was free to dispose of the Jews as he wished. To Hitler’s glee, all attendees turned their backs on the prospect of “buying” the lives of some Jews, with exception to the Dominican Republic that said it would take in a few provided they were doctors in good health. It may have also been the start of America’s guilt trip for what it didn’t do for the Jews in their hour of need.
the next few pages of that link are interesting, the conversation between murray and weizmann
the next few pages of that link are interesting, the conversation between murray and weizmann
Yes it’s a typical example of Zionist exceptionalism and one of the many documented examples of bribes being offered in connection with transfer schemes.
pg 840 weizmann wrt settlement of the issue he says all they can offer is money. ‘if they offer one million pounds i would say not enough..15 or 20 millon too much..but 3 or 4? ok’
hopes to buy an easy ethnic cleansing for less than 5 pounds per a person!
There were dozens of similar attempts to bribe Arab officials, including some initiated by FDR. Some of the more notable efforts by “non-Zionist” American Jews were examined in detail by author Rafael Medoff in Baksheesh Diplomacy, Lexington Books, 2001.
There’s also the much more detailed historical record compiled by Israeli Rabbi Dr. Chaim Simons in support of the Kahanist doctrine of Arab transfer: A Historical Survey of Proposals to Transfer Arabs from Palestine, 1895-1947 (1988) link to archive.org
just because there the minority doesn’t mean they are wrong
To know where Israel is going, it’s best to look at the numbers. The most recent estimates I saw put the number of Haredi in israel (in 2010) at anywhere from 700,000 to over 1 M. The exact number is not known – depends on how data is collected. This makes that segment of the population somewhere between 15-18% of the jewish population of about 5.8M in 2010.
In 2010 the average birthrate of the ultra-orthodox (haredi) was estimated at 7. This compares with a birthrate of 3 for the average for the Jewish population in Israel. At this rate, the number of Haredi will grow to well over 20% by 2020, reaching as much as 35% by 2030. This, of course, does not take into account the net emigration from Israel – mostly by secular, or the fact that much of the influx into israel is religious.
Here are a few more numbers to chew on: the number of students in the Haredi sector grew by 51% in the last decade vs 33% for the Arab sector and decline of 3% in the mainstream secular school system. In 2009, about 35% of primary school children were Haredi, expected to rise to 45% by 2020, if current trends continue.
Clearly, what is happening in Israel is that a water-shed moment of sorts has already arrived. Beit Shemesh is west of Jerusalem and many other haredi concentrations are spread in the towns around Jerusalem, reaching further and further out. In time the Haredi influx is bound to encroach on the very bastions of the coastal secular population centers, with friction steadily increasing. Israel has tried to keep the Haredi in their enclosed ghettos in perfect isolation for a long time now. But that separation cannot remain hermetic for long, simply because of the numbers. Israel simply cannot build housing ghettos fast enough, and the little plan of spreading them towards the West bank is also not quite as successful as the great planners of Chelem wish.
The tape reflects well the fundamentalist intolerance of the ashkenazi Haredi and the growing schism between them and the rest of the society, which includes, BTW, the “merely” observant. Indeed, it is quite an irony that the 8 year old girl is from an observant American immigrant family. Both she and her mother were dressed modestly enough for most communities. Apparently, they – and their manner of dress were still found wanting by the fundamentalist individuals quoted.
For some of the numbers quoted I used the Jewish virtual library recent update found at:
link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
And also several other accounts such as:
link to haaretz.com
Plus my own little projections. If anyone has more reliable/recent demographic numbers please share?
Hey Danaa, haven’t seen you in awhile. Hope you had a happy holiday. Have a happy new year as well. Good to see you~
great to see you danaa, long time. i read somewhere recently about the statistics for kindergarten enrollment in irsael. a shocking figure for the Haredi. up 90% or something. i’ll try to find it.
Finally, one more comment: in view of the demographic trends within the Jewish part of israel, any projection forward (please everyone – do your own projections…) leads to the same inescapable conclusion:
Discussions of one state/two state are exercises in wishful fancy thinking, at best. Because what we’ll have in a relatively short time is a “crazy state”, whether one, two, many or none. The zionist dream, for better or for worse, is likely to beget a zealot reality – just as it did historically for the Jews before. No reason to suppose it won’t do so again, especially given the commitment to biblical reality by so many of Israel’s present day dwellers. Following this logic, discussions on the future of the Palestinians within or without Israel’s borders will do well to include the dimension of insanity. In other words, referring to political realities alone will not do, no matter how brilliantly grand and well meaning. The sooner behavioral psychology is brought in to bear the better. And that, in a nutshell, is why I believe in maximalist BDS. It’s the only way I can think of to get the saner element of the Israeli collective to wake up to its own approaching doom. I know it’s kind of like electric shock therapy. But sometimes it can work…
alright, danaa back in the mix!
Agree with your thoughts here
Danaa,
I knew you were lurking. Jesus, I’ve missed you.
Thanks for missing me – Cliff, MRW, Annie, Dan. Lurking is no lark in the park, but I’ll do my best to remedy the absence, perchance rejoin the great crew out here.
Cheers to all who continue to fight the good fight(s).
missed you too, Danaa. and thank you for earlier comment and appreciation of the post
annie and dumbpest (sorry about that but it is hard to remember the spelling of a 17 character handle) this is a good point. The haredi have customs that are very easy to ridicule but that has been true for decades (in my experience) and probably for a few hundred years. I lived in a neighborhood in Brookline MA in the 1970s and 80 with a large number of people who lived that life style. They certainly looked strange but for the most part were pretty good neighbors — they left me alone as I left them alone. The fact that these incidents are going mainstream along with Netanyahu’s denounciation strongly suggests that Israel is now trying to make them the scapegoats for all of the horrors of Zionism that has been unleashed upon the Palestinians.
We should all know that the problem is Zionism, and not people who engage in peculiar religious customs. Today by the accident of history I live near a neighborhood that is made up of Christian fundamentalist — they are very good neighbors as long as we are content to avoid theological or political debate.
thanks toivos. excellent comment and i repeat thank you thank you.
we are absolutely on the same page here. in fact i have just written another post about it, so dog willing it will be up tomorrow!
hophmi,
It’s been almost a full day, and you STILL haven’t condemned these filthy pigs who are harassing a 7-year old because these supposed men are sexually distracted by children. Why haven’t you condemned them? Do you approve of their actions?
“Why haven’t you condemned them? Do you approve of their actions?”
I obviously condemn them. It should be obvious, but just for you, Tanaka, I’ll do it formally here.
I haven’t seen you condemn the firing of rockets at civilians in Sderot lately. Do you approve of that? Oh wait, there’s a good chance that you do.
“I obviously condemn them. It should be obvious…”
Why it is obvious? You were more concerned about whether they were anti-Zionist or whether a crook fcked up a town in the Midwest than to condemn this action, even when called upon it. Why would it be obvious? It should be obvious that a thinking person would condemn the wholesale theft of Palestine, but some people don’t.
“I haven’t seen you condemn the firing of rockets at civilians in Sderot lately. Do you approve of that? Oh wait, there’s a good chance that you do.”
You might think that. But then again, you’re a bigot. I am well-established on the record as condemning any action directed at civilians, be they major ones like the massacre of the Gazans a few years ago and the on-going Nakba, occupation and oppression of the Palestinians to any firing of rockets which are designed to create terror and not as legitimate defense against Israeli action.