F. W. de Klerk on why apartheid will fail in Israel/Palestine

Israel/Palestine
on 120 Comments
South Africa Israel
Maps of the Black homelands in apartheid South Africa (left) and areas of autonomous Palestinian control in the West Bank under the Oslo Accords (right) (Maps: Philip Munger)
 

Interesting quote over at Jews Sans Frontieres from a recent BBC Radio 4 interview with F. W. de Klerk, the last president of apartheid South Africa:

What I supported as a younger politician was exactly what the whole world now supports for Israel and Palestine, namely separate nation states will be the solution. In our case we failed. There were three main reasons. We failed because the whites wanted too much land for themselves. We failed because the majority of blacks said this is not how we want our political rights. And we failed because we became economically totally integrated. We became an economic omelet and you can never again divide an omelet into the white and the yellow of the egg. And we realized in the early eighties we had landed in a place which has become morally unjustified.

120 Responses

  1. Dan Crowther
    January 5, 2012, 10:56 am

    So, now BOTH sides the of South African apartheid fight are calling a spade a spade in Palestine…..

    And with the Israeli court giving the green light to continued Israeli resource extraction from OPT, its hard to argue that the omelet is not taking its form

    • mudder
      January 5, 2012, 12:54 pm

      and water too. From Amnesty International:

      Israel uses more than 80 per cent of the water from the Mountain Aquifer, the main source of underground water in Israel and the OPT, while restricting Palestinian access to a mere 20 per cent.

      The Mountain Aquifer is the only source for water for Palestinians in the West Bank, but only one of several for Israel, which also takes for itself all the water available from the Jordan River.

      • asherpat
        January 5, 2012, 8:37 pm

        @mudder, pls don’t muddy the water, so to speak (pun intended).

        Why don’t you clarify that there is an agreement between Israel and the PA and the water is drawn in accordance with this agreement.

        Why dont you clarify that the ratio of Israel’s population (7m) to the populaiton of the PA (inc. the third state of Gaza) (3m) is not far from the 80/20 ratio of water?

        Why don’t you compare the water usage of Palestinian Arabs brethren in neighbouring caliphates? You will see that per capita, the water usage of Palestinians is not lower than that in say Jordan or Syria.

        mudder?

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 12:56 am

        Why don’t you clarify that there is an agreement between Israel and the PA and the water is drawn in accordance with this agreement.

        Why don’t you clarify that the agreement was negotiated during a military occupation and that an occupying power is limited to the right to administer resources according to the rules of usufruct in accordance with the Hague Convention regulations (Article 55). In addition, the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibit local leaders from negotiating special agreements that renounce the protections of the conventions during an occupation (Articles 7 and 8).

        Per capita water consumption in Israeli towns is three and a half times higher than in Palestinian towns in the West Bank. The Israeli consumption is 100+ liters above the World Health Organization and the United States Agency for International Development recommend 100 liters of water per capita per day, while the Palestinian rate of consumption is 25-63 liters below. link to btselem.org

        Why don’t you compare the water usage of Palestinian Arabs brethren in neighbouring caliphates?

        Because Israel is obtaining 30 percent of its water from the Palestinian aquifer and those neighbors are not.

        You will see that per capita, the water usage of Palestinians is not lower than that in say Jordan or Syria.

        Actually we see that Israeli per capita consumption is unsustainable without stealing a considerable amount of water from the Palestinians in violation of international law.

      • asherpat
        January 6, 2012, 3:10 am

        @Hostage
        1. “Why don’t you clarify that the agreement was negotiated during a military occupation” – wrong. Firstly, thanks for recognising that there is an Agreement and that Israel is complying with it. But this Agreement was negotiated with people (PLO) that were NOT under military occupation and therefore did NOT have to agree, you can’t argue that they were coerced into this Agreement. Do you propose that the all Oslo agreements should be scrapped – yes/no please. Because if you say “ye”, then all the things that Palestinians got in return should in fairness be reversed – no self governance for more than 90% of population, back to Military Rule. I know, I know, “Banthustans/Ghettoes/Occupation” mantra, but do you propose to reverse the situation to pre-Oslo. Yes or No will suffice.
        2. The fact that “Per capita water consumption in Israeli towns is three and a half times higher than in Palestinian towns” is consistent with the per capita income of the populations and in itself is not an indication of “stealing” by one side – do you suggest that Palestinians would use the same amount of water per capita as the Israelis if Israel would not exist (a wet-dream, I know)? Yes/No will suffice.
        3. Your answer to my question about comparing consumption with “neighbouring caliphates” – I can’t understand it – “Because Israel is obtaining 30 percent of its water from the Palestinian aquifer and those neighbors are not.” My argument is that Palestinians in Palestinian Territories consume similar amounts of water per capita as their brothers in the neighbouring Arab countries. Do you agree with it. If No, then please state so (though it will logically contradict your previous answer), if “yes”, then how exactly is Israel to blame for that?
        4. “Actually we see that Israeli per capita consumption is unsustainable without stealing a considerable amount of water from the Palestinians in violation of international law.” Making statements like “stealing”, “violation” is not a proof. Please state therefore that you think that Oslo Agreements should be scrapped with situation reversed to 1991 military rule over Ramallah and Areas A and B. Yes or No will suffice.
        And talking about water shortage in the caliphates, perhaps you want to see these pictures of a Water Amusements Park in poverty ravaged Gaza (link to maannews.net )? The news is from Maan Agency, for God’s sake, not Elder of Ziyon (link to elderofziyon.blogspot.com actually it is also from Maan)!

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 11:45 am

        1. “Why don’t you clarify that the agreement was negotiated during a military occupation” – wrong. But this Agreement was negotiated with people (PLO) that were NOT under military occupation and therefore did NOT have to agree, you can’t argue that they were coerced into this Agreement.

        It doesn’t matter. In accordance with Article 8 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, the Palestinian leadership can’t renounce the rights of the population while it is still living under occupation, i.e. “Protected persons may in no circumstances renounce in part or in entirety the rights secured to them by the present Convention, and by the special agreements referred to in the foregoing Article, if such there be.”

        Do you propose that the all Oslo agreements should be scrapped – yes/no please.

        Yes. Articles 8 and 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention reflect peremptory norms of customary international law. A treaty, is void if, at the time of its conclusion, it conflicts with a peremptory norm of general international law. See Article 53 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties. The ICJ has ruled that the settlements are illegal and that the Wall and the associated administrative regime in the Occupied Palestinian Territories violates another peremptory norm, concerning the exercise of the Palestinian right of self-determination. Israel has an obligation to remove any impediment to the exercise of that right and to scrupulously comply with the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and to withdraw from the occupied territories in accordance with international law and the applicable UN resolutions.

        but do you propose to reverse the situation to pre-Oslo.

        No I propose the situation be treated in view of the adoption of the Rome Statute of the ICC in July of 2002.

        perhaps you want to see these pictures of a Water Amusements Park in poverty ravaged Gaza

        Here’s some pictures of amusement rides and a water fountain in the New Orleans City Park. Care to guess how many visitors it gets from the 9th Ward? BTW only fucktards think the neighboring states are governed by a caliphate. link to wrtdesign.com

      • asherpat
        January 6, 2012, 12:20 pm

        @Hostage: Indeed Article 8 of Geneva convention says ““Protected persons may in no circumstances renounce in part or in entirety the rights”. But since Olso Accords, the vast majority of Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are not “Protected persons” becasue they ceased to be under military occupation.

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 1:32 pm

        But since Olso Accords, the vast majority of Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are not “Protected persons” becasue they ceased to be under military occupation.

        Let’s try this again. The Oslo Accords lapsed on September 13, 2000. The ICJ advised the General Assembly that:

        The territories situated between the Green Line (see paragraph 72 above) and the former eastern boundary of Palestine under the Mandate were occupied by Israel in 1967 during the armed conflict between Israel and Jordan. Under customary international law, these were therefore occupied territories in which Israel had the status of occupying Power. Subsequent events in these territories, as described in paragraphs 75 to 77 above, have done nothing to alter this situation. All these territories (including East Jerusalem) remain occupied territories and Israel has continued to have the status of occupying Power.

        In the 2005 Regional Council, Coast of Gaza v. Knesset of Israel case, H.C.J. 1661/05, the High Court of Justice ruled that Gaza, Judea, and Samaria were being held in a state of belligerent occupation.

        Israel has placed the Gaza Strip under siege and the area under Israeli military control extends well inside Palestinian territorial waters and encompasses all of its airspace. The Israeli government has authorized the military to conduct operations there and to impose economic and political sanctions on the Gaza Strip in the form of restrictions on the goods that can be imported and the closure of border crossings to people, goods and services, sometimes for days, including cuts in the provision of fuel and electricity. The responsible human rights and humanitarian rights treaty monitoring bodies still consider Gaza to be occupied territory under the day to day control of the IDF.

      • asherpat
        January 6, 2012, 6:26 pm

        @hostage: “The responsible human rights and humanitarian rights treaty monitoring bodies still consider Gaza to be occupied territory under the day to day control of the IDF”, but not according to Israeli High Court, is it?

        Can’t have it both ways, Hostage, can you?

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 7:08 pm

        but not according to Israeli High Court, is it? . . . Can’t have it both ways, Hostage, can you?

        I didn’t try to have it both ways. That’s what the deceitful folks on the Israeli High Court of Justice and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs appear to do when they describe the applicable legal framework and then fail to apply it to the West Bank settlements, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. But both agencies admit that the civilians in Gaza and the West Bank are protected persons under the terms of the Geneva Conventions. For example, the Court continues to cite a 2005 case involving Israel’s targeted killings policy. See the Israeli Supreme Court decision under the heading “The General Normative Framework, A. International Armed Conflict”. It held:

        “that between Israel and the various terrorist organizations active in Judea, Samaria, and the Gaza Strip (hereinafter “the area”) a continuous situation of armed conflict has existed since the first intifada.” and that they were members of the occupied population, who are protected persons according to IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949″.

        link to elyon1.court.gov.il

        Lets look at what the MFA said about the legal framework of the 2009 Gaza Operation:

        Some of the rules governing the use of force in armed conflicts are set forth in treaties, such as the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and the Regulations annexed to the Fourth Hague Convention of 1907. Others have gained acceptance by the practice of the international community and become part of customary international law. The Israeli High Court has ruled that these customary international law rules bind Israel under both international law and Israeli law. In particular, Israel‘s High Court of Justice has confirmed that in the ongoing armed conflict with Palestinian terrorist organisations, including Hamas, Israel must adhere to the rules and principles in (a) the Fourth Geneva Convention, (b) the Regulations annexed to the Fourth Hague Convention (which reflect customary international law), and (c) the customary international law principles reflected in certain provisions of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions on 1949. Israel is not a party to the Additional Protocol I, but accepts that some of its provisions accurately reflect customary international law

        link to mfa.gov.il

        Regardless of the sophistry that Zionist pinheads try to employ, the members of the civilian population are nonetheless considered protected persons under the applicable framework of international law.

    • Hostage
      January 5, 2012, 9:57 pm

      So, now BOTH sides the of South African apartheid fight are calling a spade a spade in Palestine.

      To tell the truth, Uri Davis has written several books which document the fact that beginning in 1961, various white South African government officials claimed that Israel practices apartheid too. Zionist authors have done the same thing, e.g. link to mondoweiss.net

  2. Kathleen
    January 5, 2012, 11:41 am

    And in the 60′s and 70′s students on campuses in the US became better informed about this critical issue. “morally unjustifiable” More people are waking up to the I/P situation because of decades of efforts, Mondoweiss etc. Keep pushing. Contact your Reps about the unnecessary sanctions against Iran that most of them voted for

  3. mudder
    January 5, 2012, 11:44 am

    F. W. de Klerk has also said that boycotts of Israel would be ineffective. Desmond Tutu, of course, disagrees.

    • Carllarc
      January 5, 2012, 2:00 pm

      unlike what eee said below about the economic integration, the real question is whether there will be a sufficient international outrage to inspire action against the Israeli corruption against the Palestinian people. The problem in this regard is obviously the seeming unquestioning support from the US legislators and the sophistication of the Israeli PR’s branding for public opinion. Can the ugly and outrageous behavior by the so-called settlers actually turn US public opinion? How about in Israel?

  4. eee
    January 5, 2012, 12:19 pm

    You miss the most salient thing de Klerk is saying:
    “And we failed because we became economically totally integrated. We became an economic omelet and you can never again divide an omelet into the white and the yellow of the egg. ”

    This is not the case in Israel/Palestine. The Palestinians need the Israelis economically but the Israelis have zero need of the Palestinians. The whites were 12% of South Africa and needed the blacks as workers in the mines and in industry. The Jews in Israel are 70% and we do not need the Palestinians to support our high tech economy.

    As for his other two reasons, they are not applicable either. Israel is no demanding too much land and most Palestinians support a two state solution.

    • hophmi
      January 5, 2012, 1:07 pm

      Quiet, eee. Don’t confuse these poor people with facts. Their heads may explode if they realize that the South Africa analogy is intellectually bankrupt.

      • Carllarc
        January 5, 2012, 1:51 pm

        eee + hophmi forget the recent news of the Israel Supreme Court giving the green light for the continued extraction of the resources of Palestine; also noted above the Israeli/so-called settlers use of water from Palestine; also, how about the Palestinian land the Israelis can’t seem to stop themselves from thieving — so,

        Quiet, eee + hophmi. Don’t confuse yourselves with facts. Your heads may explode if you realize that the South Africa analogy is intellectually on-point.

        Wait — also can’t forget that 20% of Israel population is Palestinian origin.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 2:14 pm

        Carllarc,

        What are you talking about? How does anything you say support the argument that Israel needs the Palestinians?

      • irena
        January 5, 2012, 5:21 pm

        eee, Israeli companies that operate in occupied territories (and employ Palestinians), how is that unclear to you? A lot of gravel is used to make roads in Israel. Where did Ahava get its resources?
        But of course your imbecilic comment is to be considered rather than those who actually lived during South African apartheid.

      • Carllarc
        January 5, 2012, 8:06 pm

        read what I said; Israel takes the resources (land, water, natural resources) of Palestine. You are confusing to realize that resources are also a necessary component of ‘economic activity’. Thus, Israel takes the resources and leaves nothing (including land) for the Palestinians to live on (land, water, and resources).

        understand now?

      • Carllarc
        January 5, 2012, 9:10 pm

        read what I said; Israel takes the resources (land, water, natural resources) of Palestine. You are confusing to realize that resources are also a necessary component of ‘economic activity’. Thus, Israel takes the resources and leaves nothing (including land) for the Palestinians to live on (land, water, and resources).

        understand now?

      • alec
        January 5, 2012, 1:59 pm

        I don’t know about you bigots, but that map looks pretty similar to me.

      • mudder
        January 5, 2012, 5:05 pm

        Nobel peace laureates de Klerk, Tutu, and Carter use the South Africa analogy. I don’t see their heads exploding.

    • richb
      January 5, 2012, 1:39 pm

      So let me get this straight. You have no need for Palestinians economically. So how come you have settlements in the West Bank then? Because if you truly had this wondrous high tech economy all you need is office parks in Tel Aviv. What you really are saying is you have no need for Palestinians just their land. So you take their land and water and leave them completely disenfranchised. This makes you morally worse than the white South Africans who at least admitted like F.W. de Klerk to needing the people in addition to their land.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 2:38 pm

        So let me get this straight, since the US is also a high tech country you plan soon to give back all the plain states to the Sioux, Crow, Comanche etc and Florida back to the Seminoles. When is New Jersey going to be given back to the Lenape?
        link to en.wikipedia.org

      • richb
        January 5, 2012, 3:26 pm

        We didn’t do that but in 1924 we gave Native Americans the choice to become American citizens. link to en.wikipedia.org

        Plan to do that soon or do you plan to remain stuck in the Nineteenth Century forever?

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 3:41 pm

        “We didn’t do that”

        It is never too late. When do you plan doing it? And if you don’t plan doing it, why are you preaching to others?

      • Woody Tanaka
        January 5, 2012, 5:13 pm

        “And if you don’t plan doing it, why are you preaching to others?”

        But we’re only preaching to you that you do what we did… give them the vote and be a state of all your people.

      • irena
        January 5, 2012, 5:22 pm

        eat up the rest of the sentence he wrote, Zionism is proud!

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        January 5, 2012, 5:30 pm

        You didn’t answer the question, eee. When are you going to give citizenship to Palestinians. You keep bringing up the example of native americans to ballast your arguments, yet you always stop halfway through the story. Finish, for once? -N49.

      • mudder
        January 5, 2012, 6:03 pm

        The descendants of the Sioux, Crow, Comanche, Seminoles, and Lenape that my ancestors wronged vote on the same ballots and in the same polling places as I do. They are tried by the same laws and serve as jurors in the same courts as I do. What part of “apartheid” do you not understand?

      • Philip Munger
        January 5, 2012, 7:37 pm

        3e’s analogies hold up until they don’t, which is often.

        eee’s perhaps incapable of acknowledging that Native Americans, even through continuing struggles, have far more political rights than Israel or eee would ever give to the Palestinians he just compared to my friends and neighbors. As much sorrow as went into the peopling of Oklahoma, for instance, I can’t imagine many Native American Oklahomans willingly changing places forever with Gazans.

        Even in the impoverished, often desolate tundra villages where my wife mentors young Native Alaskan teachers, nobody in their right mind would give up their modest, frigid home to live in a larger one in Hebron.

      • eee
        January 6, 2012, 12:16 am

        Munger,

        Arab Israelis have just as much rights as Native Americans.

        The Palestinians in the West Bank will eventually have a state of their own. You granted citizenship to the Native Americans in 1924 which was 148 after the US was founded and 432 years after Columbus landed in the New World. Don’t worry, we will sort things out much quicker than you did.

        And I am sure that many of the people on the tundra would be happy with a house in Ramallah. Maybe they like eating in the organic restaurant that Phil ate at? And as for Hebron, most people there have a decent life. You should visit and see for yourself.

        The point is very simple. What Palestinians want is the equivalent of Native Americans asking back the plain states. That is what the right of return means. And that they will never get, just as the Native Americans will not get their land back. Or are you in favor of giving it back to them?

      • Donald
        January 6, 2012, 12:26 am

        You really have to appreciate the level of arrogance eee showed with his partial quote of richb’s statement. The original is just a few lines above and anyone can see it, but he just went right ahead and pretended he was responding to what was written when anyone could see he wasn’t. There ought to be some sort of award for that kind of thing–we could call it the RW award, given out to the person who types this least responsive and most blatantly hypocritical answer of the week.

      • eee
        January 6, 2012, 12:30 am

        “Finish, for once?”

        Sure, first we are going to enact the Palestinian Removal Act
        ( link to en.wikipedia.org )
        which for the Palestinians safety means they will all be moved to Jordan Valley. Then we will grant them land and reneg on the deals and make them poor and miserable. And then when most of them leave or die of disease, we will grant the few that are left citizenship. And then we will preach to others how great we are.

        No, it is not what Israel is going to do, but it is what Canada and the US did, and now you are using what you did as a great example: “Look how great we are, we gave Native Americans citizenship in 1924″. Yes, after killing them over hundreds of years while stealing their lands and continually breaking treaties and agreements with them. Next you will tell me how great you are allowing them to build casinos even though Native Americans still are second class citizens in the US.

        Israel is going to negotiate a two state solution with the Palestinians as soon as they become reasonable and accept a plan based on the Clinton Parameters. Unfortunately, the Palestinians insist on the right of return and therefore there is no deal to be had.

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 2:34 am

        The point is very simple. What Palestinians want is the equivalent of Native Americans asking back the plain states.

        The Native Americans have citizenship and the right to reside anywhere in the plains states. Palestinian refugees born in what became Israel do not have the right to live anywhere in your state and they are not citizens.

      • Richard Witty
        January 6, 2012, 6:21 am

        Should we name the “Donald” award to the most malicious personal character assault statement of the week?

        Address content.

        Hypocrisy abounds.

      • richb
        January 6, 2012, 10:19 am

        Yes the arrogance and racism is simply stunning. Eee’s statement that they do not need the Palestinians brings to mind Pappe’s book on the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Pappe notes that up until this point previous invaders left the people on the land because they realized they needed the people. That changed with the Zionists when they sought to rid the land of all Arabs since their racism informed them that they didn’t need the Palestinians. When I made my statement about the Zionists being worse than all other invaders I am including the Babylonians. I’ll explain why below.

        There are three things archeologists found at the so-called City of David that the settler organization suppresses. The first was a substantial Jewish quarter during Caliphate rule. The second was the Babylonian exile was only of the elite and the common folk were left alone. The third was a huge difference in the economic classes during the time of the OT prophets. This part of the Bible was confirmed rather than the golden age of the United Kingdom. The prophets rightly railed against the Jewish elite oppressing the 99% of the day and predicted that the Jews — or more specifically the Jewish elite as the common folk did not go into exile — would go into exile and not return until they repented of their evil. Modern Zionists continue this practice of economic oppression today.

      • Woody Tanaka
        January 6, 2012, 10:29 am

        “Arab Israelis have…”

        They’re called “Palestinians” you bigot.

      • eee
        January 6, 2012, 10:44 am

        “Yes the arrogance and racism is simply stunning.”

        The truth is just the truth, it is not arrogance or racism. Let me repeat it: The Jews do not need the Palestinians from an economic point of view like the whites needed the blacks in South Africa.

      • eee
        January 6, 2012, 11:04 am

        “They’re called “Palestinians” you bigot.”

        I talk with Arab Israelis often and that is what they call themselves also. So you know better than them?

      • Woody Tanaka
        January 6, 2012, 11:23 am

        “I talk with Arab Israelis often and that is what they call themselves also. So you know better than them?”

        The majority prefer to be called “Palestinians.” You know better than them?

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 11:54 am

        No, it is not what Israel is going to do, but it is what Canada and the US Canada, the US and Israel did

        Except Israel refused to grant the Palestinians citizenship. Still reveling in all of that 1922 Mandate era Zio-supremacy I see.

      • NorthOfFortyNine
        January 6, 2012, 12:23 pm

        @ eee: No, it is not what Israel is going to do, but it is what Canada and the US did,

        No, it did not. Canada granted its natives full citizenship and all the rights that go with it. When is Israel going to do the same? When is Israel going to grant its natives full rights? That you don’t do so immediately is completely indefensible. Put up or shut up. -N49.

      • MRW
        January 6, 2012, 12:46 pm

        eee,

        ” What Palestinians want is the equivalent of Native Americans asking back the plain states. … And that they will never get, just as the Native Americans will not get their land back. Or are you in favor of giving it back to them?”

        Exactly which of the original 500 tribes and tribal land are you referring to? Or is this some sweeping argument you’re trying to make, like Whites do this, or Blacks do that, or All People are Sinners?

        Or is this a jejune argument that says, ‘Well, you did this 400 years ago, and this 200 years ago, so why can’t we do it now?”

        I’ll tell you why you can’t do it now: because between 1924 (pick your year) and now, the people who wanted to create Israel agreed, legally agreed, to do something else, and we are holding you to it.

        You don’t get to pick which century your agreement applies to.

      • Donald
        January 6, 2012, 2:21 pm

        “Address content.

        Hypocrisy abounds.”

        People address your content all the time. If you can’t rebut it intelligently you ignore it or burn down some strawman. People get mad and insult you. You whine about it. I think this behavior merits recognition.

      • Richard Witty
        January 6, 2012, 2:52 pm

        Can you show me an example of who you think addressed the content of my posts, that I ignored or strawmanned?

        My comments are routinely misrepresented, often by you.

        There is a phenomena here and really everywhere in political discussion of citing of “facts” and then thinking that that refutes an argument. The facts have to related to the argument, to the weight of emphasis.

        There often are really disagreements of weight of emphasis, that are sadly not acknowledged as an agreement to disagree.

        The urge/requirement of political conformity, and name-calling and other punishment as “remedy”, is too strong here. Its a “sin” to demand such conformity and to not respect differing opinions.

      • Donald
        January 6, 2012, 3:06 pm

        “Can you show me an example of who you think addressed the content of my posts, that I ignored or strawmanned?”

        This is our ritual dance. I typed a long reply just now, but I’ve done it many times before and it’s a waste of time. It just feeds your ego.

      • MHughes976
        January 6, 2012, 3:59 pm

        No one is currently seeking to carve out a sovereign area or areas – a 2ss – for all or some of the 500 tribes. But those who think that a 2ss is the natural solution for a conflict between racial or national groups should in logic turn their attention to the idea of a North American 2ss for the long term. In some circumstances, depending on the size of the areas and populations concerned over time, non-native Americans might think it the best outcome. But it would be breaking a social contract, a 1ss, to which all races are party.

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 4:37 pm

        No one is currently seeking to carve out a sovereign area or areas – a 2ss – for all or some of the 500 tribes.

        In fact many tribes have treaty relationships with the US government and several have taken their complaints about violations and their right to self-determination and independence to the various UN treaty bodies.

      • MHughes976
        January 6, 2012, 5:19 pm

        Thanks, that’s very interesting.
        There was a scene – this is not academic-grade information, I grant you – in the American version of the television series The Killing in which a Native American area figured, with the inevitable casino and with an unhelpful, alienated management who didn’t seem to care very much about catching a murderer. It seemed that they were independent of the municipal and state governments but subject to US federal law, which maintained as much remoteness as it could manage. An interesting portrait of a legally ambiguous situation. But I suppose these people are still basically subjects, not sovereigns.
        Is there any movement for native American sovereignty in some form, with UN membership and so on? Or claim that that sovereignty already exists?

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 8:16 pm

        Is there any movement for native American sovereignty in some form, with UN membership and so on? Or claim that that sovereignty already exists?

        I haven’t really kept up with the topic. I know that there have been tribal, Hawaiian, and Alaskan groups that have pursued claims in federal court and that a few like, Western Shoshone, and the Six Nations Iroquois Confederacy who have pursued action through the UN and established their own NGOs, like American Indian Law Alliance, in consultative status with the United Nations Economic & Social Council. See for example Francis Boyle’s work on behalf of the Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement. link to en.wikipedia.org

        Regarding the tribes, the US Supreme Court under Chief Justice Marshal handed down three decisions in the 1800s which established the controlling precedents used until the 1970s. It ruled the tribes are “domestic dependent nations”. Here is a link to a discussion: link to americanbar.org

        That status gradually changed despite US opposition when:
        *The General Assembly resolved that the provisions of the UN Charter concerning the Declaration regarding Non-Self-Governing Territories is a treaty obligation that’s binding upon all of the member states without any necessity of a trusteeship agreement. See UN General Assembly resolution 9(i).
        *The General Assembly adopted “The Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples”
        *Declaration on Permanent Sovereignty over Natural Resources
        *The General Assembly opened the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination for signature.
        *Congress adopted The Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act of 1975
        *The UN established the Permanent Forum of Indigenous Peoples. link to un.org
        *The General Assembly adopted The Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (2007) and made it part of the Universal Periodic Review process: “Recognizing also the urgent need to respect and promote the rights of indigenous peoples affirmed in treaties, agreements and other
        constructive arrangements with States” link to un.org

      • thankgodimatheist
        January 8, 2012, 7:32 am

        “You really have to appreciate the level of arrogance eee showed with his partial quote of richb’s statement. ”

        Exactly, Donald! Made me feel like puking! Such a shockingly morally corrupt person should be moderated/banned from this site forever.

    • Kathleen
      January 5, 2012, 1:41 pm

      yeah when the privileged or the subsidized need low wage earners to take care of their yards, pools being filled with Palestinian waters…things do get a bit wrapped up. And Israel needs the US but the US does not need Israel in fact Israel’s actions undermine US national security

    • Pamela Olson
      January 5, 2012, 1:51 pm

      Hm, you are not paying much attention, are you? The Palestinian and Israeli economies are far more intertwined than you seem to understand. Israelis have a captive market in the Palestinians, they take and use Palestinian water and land for their own benefit, they dump off their grade B and freshness-date-expired products on Palestinian stores who have few other options, they have half a million Israeli citizens living on Palestinian land (that’s a lotta real estate), they control the electromagnetic spectrum of the West Bank and Gaza as well as dozens of holy sites and tourist attractions on Palestinian soil… and that’s just the things I can think of off the top of my head. The occupation is phenomenally profitable for Israel. There’s a reason they’re hanging onto it so hard, and it ain’t just for “security” and the Bible.

      Israelis are not demanding too much land? LOL

      Most Palestinians would support a FAIR two-state solution based on international law, if Israel would allow it. But they won’t. Hence the problem.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 2:21 pm

        You are just completely wrong. The percentage of GDP that Israel gets from the West Bank is negligible relative to the total GDP. Israel does not need the Palestinians at all.

        Contrast this with South Africa where industry in general and mining in particular was based on black labor and a strike would bring the economy to a standstill. That is just not the case in Israel. Many, many Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank would love to get back the jobs they lost in Israel. But they have only themselves to blame for their support of the intifadas.

      • Woody Tanaka
        January 5, 2012, 2:48 pm

        “But they have only themselves to blame for their support of the intifadas.”

        Nonsense. A decent humane government and state would have found a way to solve its problems without instigating intifadas. Sadly, the Palestinians bear the curse of having to deal with an insane and racist Zionist hell-hole.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 3:25 pm

        Yeah, right. The Palestinians are blameless victims. They are responsible for their situation just as Israel is responsible for its situation. The Palestinians chose their goals and methods and are paying the price of their shortsightedness, extremism, internal strife and other assorted failures.

      • Kathleen
        January 5, 2012, 3:37 pm

        Yeah the Palestinians asked for the Balfour Declaration. They asked for JNF to consicate land and then make sure only Jews could access. They just keep asking for more illegal settlement expansion. And my god when are they going to stop asking for their olive groves to be cut down and their houses to be bulldozed. When will they stop asking for all of this to happen. They are about as blameless as a woman who keeps getting beat by her husband and starts to defend herself. eee you ate truly a ziopath

      • john h
        January 5, 2012, 3:52 pm

        Yeah, right. The Palestinians are blameless victims. They are responsible for their situation just as Israel is responsible for its situation.

        Newsflash: Israel and Zionism is 100% responsible for the situation of both Israelis and Palestinians. It all stems from choices made.

        The choice for Zionism, the choice that Zionism is moral, the choice to put Zionism into practice, the choice to ethnically cleanse, the choice to have leaders that continually lie and deceive and mislead, the choice to deliberately, continually, arrogantly, break international law, the choice to put a whole other people in a prison, the choice to kill over 1000 defenseless other people in three weeks, the choice to not learn the true lessons of the Holocaust, the choice to be a fortress nation of people with a fortress mindset…and many other such choices.

        Yes, the Zionist Israelis chose their goals and methods and are paying the price of their shortsightedness, extremism, internal strife and other assorted failures.

      • Woody Tanaka
        January 5, 2012, 3:55 pm

        “Yeah, right. The Palestinians are blameless victims.”

        I never said that. But like a typical Zionist, you hear with fear and bigotry blocking your ears.

        “They are responsible for their situation just as Israel is responsible for its situation.”

        Nonsense. In every enlightened formation of the obligations of government, the governing party is responsible for the welfare of all of the people under its control. But you woudl rather cast off centuries of wisdom to slake your irrational paranoia, fear, hate and racism.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 4:32 pm

        Kathleen,

        Palestinians can decide if they want to shot rockets from Gaza. They decided in the past to pursue the second intifada like they did. They decided to reject the UN partition plan and try their luck at war. They decided not to ask for a state in the West Bank and Gaza between 48 and 67. Palestinians have made many bad decisions. And they are paying the price for them.

    • Sumud
      January 5, 2012, 1:54 pm

      The Palestinians need the Israelis economically but the Israelis have zero need of the Palestinians.

      Rubbish. What Palestinians need is for Israel to fvck off and stop stealing their resources and choking their economy.

      Granted, Israel has no need for Palestinian labour – but Israel’s economy profits immensely from the occupation (ie. over half of Israel’s fresh water is stolen from the West Bank aquifers, the billions in US military aid) and US wars. The US is in decline and will eventually have to roll back those operations. Israel’s economy will tank shortly thereafter.

      Oh yeah, don’t forget Apple’s plan to invest in Israel’s “high tech economy”. I think it’s just the ticket to bust BDS into every home on earth.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 2:26 pm

        It is a fact that Israel developed technology that Apple did not have and therefore they acquired it. Yes, Israel is a high tech economy. I know this does not fit with your distorted picture of the world, but the facts are the facts.

        “Israel’s economy will tank shortly thereafter.”
        Israel is a high tech power house and huge amounts of gas were just discovered off shore, but our economy will tank. Yeah, right.

        “What Palestinians need is for Israel to fvck off and stop stealing their resources and choking their economy.”
        Ask Palestinians and they will readily admit that they need access to Israeli markets and the ability to work in Israel if they are to be economically independent.

      • Avi_G.
        January 5, 2012, 3:50 pm

        eee says:
        January 5, 2012 at 2:26 pm

        It is a fact that Israel developed technology that Apple did not have and therefore they acquired it. Yes, Israel is a high tech economy. I know this does not fit with your distorted picture of the world, but the facts are the facts.

        That’s baloney and typical of your spin and lies.

        Apple acquired that company because it was a startup that was manufacturing computer memory at costs lower than Samsung and other manufacturers from whom Apple purchases its memory. And the fact it was a startup meant that Apple could get it at a very low price, as opposed to the many multibillion companies out there. In addition, Apple got a lucrative tax break from the Israeli government.

        You should stick to Israel invented the cherry tomato.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 4:15 pm

        Avi_G,

        You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. I know the company that was bought well. It does not have manufacturing plants. What it has is a ground breaking technology based on DSP to make reading and writing from flash memory much better.

        In the company’s words:
        “Anobit’s MSP™ (Memory Signal Processing) technology significantly improves endurance, performance and cost of flash storage products
        and systems”

        http://www.anobit.com
        link to anobit.com

        In fact, it SELLS its technology to flash manufacturers. It is not a flash manufacturer itself. Apple is buying them because of their world leading technology.

        And again, you have been shown to be a liar.

      • libra
        January 5, 2012, 5:12 pm

        eee: “And again, you have been shown to be a liar.”

        Gosh eee, you’re surely being a bit harsh here. If mere ignorance on an obscure technical detail makes one a liar, how would you describe Richard Witty who is ignorant about the details of almost everything he comments on? And that’s when he’s not deliberately trying to dissemble and obfuscate.

        Speaking of obfuscation, as you are such a solid state memory expert you are must be aware that current Flash memory technology has only a several more years before it starts to be superseded by one that is faster, less power hungry, scales better and has a much better read-write duty cycle.

        But in the meantime, Apple as by far the world’s largest purchaser of Flash can use Anobit technology to effectively cut the enormous cost of these purchases (by getting cheaper Flash devices to give the performance of more expensive devices). In other words, the Anobit deal will probably wash it’s face in less than a couple of years so Apple aren’t taking any risk on a longterm exposure to Israel here.

        As already suggested, best to keep the technology hasbara focused on the cherry tomato. As I’ve found out to my regret, it’s seemingly impossible to find a substitute for this vital salad ingredient. And I doubt that salad will go out of fashion anytime soon.

      • tree
        January 5, 2012, 6:31 pm

        In fact, it SELLS its technology to flash manufacturers. It is not a flash manufacturer itself.

        According to the company site you linked to, Anobit is in the manufacturing business, not just technology solutions. According to a company news release;

        Anobit, a global leader in flash-based storage solutions, announced today that it has shipped more than 20 million of its MSP™-based high-performance embedded flash controllers for Smartphones, Tablet Computers and Personal Media Players in 2011.

        link to anobit.com

        I suppose I could reasonably call YOU a liar now, but I think it more likely that you just don’t know how to read a company website.

      • eee
        January 6, 2012, 12:03 am

        Tree,

        You shouldn’t be talking about things you know nothing about. Avi claimed Anobit was purchased because:
        it “was manufacturing computer memory at costs lower than Samsung and other manufacturers from whom Apple purchases its memory ”

        Anobit does not manufacture computer memory at all. It is a fabless company, in fact it doesn’t manufacture anything. It designs chips that other manufacture.

      • richb
        January 5, 2012, 4:04 pm

        From the story on the Apple investment:

        Apple’s deployment of R&D activities is in line with this policy and the company has only one technology development center, which is at company headquarters in Cupertino, California. All activities outside of company headquarters revolve around marketing, sales and support. Strategic development is carried out at home.

        You make it sound like Anobit is the only company that provides flash memory technology. The company I work for acquired a similar capability by acquiring U.S.-based Sandforce. Given the fact that Apple is notorious for having low R&D percentages I would be surprised if this operation hires more than a couple dozen people.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 4:38 pm

        Richb,

        Go read the reviews of Anobit’s technology. It is the best in the world.

        As for the number of people hired in Israel, you will be surprised. It will be a few hundred. That is part of the agreement according to what I heard.

        But you a missing the point. Anobit is just one example out of many. You are just not willing to accept the simple truth, that Israel is a tech powerhouse.

      • libra
        January 5, 2012, 5:31 pm

        eee: “Go read the reviews of Anobit’s technology. It is the best in the world.”

        eee, I can’t help noticing that you’re hogging the boasting side of the hasbara spin cycle today leaving poor old hophmi to do all the whining.

        Is this a permanent arrangement? Just for the year? Will there be a more equitable distribution of chores to give us all a bit of a change? Or do you as an Israeli get first choice, only giving hophmi the opportunity to gloat when you feel the need for a good whinge?

      • richb
        January 5, 2012, 6:15 pm

        I know a thing or two about flash having been on team that did a flash memory controller. Back when Steve Jobs did his original flash deal with Samsung, Samsung insisted of doing the SOC as part of the deal. This purchase is a control thing because in the past Apple had semiconductor vendors — we were one of them — rather than their own in house design team. Their A5 processor is just bundled ARM cores with glue logic. It’s not any better than my designs that have ARM processors in it. We all license the same technology. The reason why Apple acquired Anobit was not because it was better but it fits into its all captive strategy. In fact, since Anobit will not sell its controllers to competitors — being part of Apple — it makes companies like LSI and Marvell have more share in the overall market. Note this comment in MacWorld:

        Yang said while Anobit’s intellectual property is key to Apple, it isn’t unique. Flash controller makers Indilinx, Marvell and SandForce all have slightly different ECC technology that accomplishes the same thing: improving the resiliency and performance of NAND flash memory.

        Finally, you are terribly naive about acquisition strategy within large high tech firms. They may promise to hold onto jobs when they purchase startups but in a couple of years everything will be in Cupertino. Apple still has the personality of its dead founder, control is everything and having key technology in Israel interferes with that.

      • eee
        January 6, 2012, 12:00 am

        Richb,

        I am in the technology business and have seen quite a few acquisitions and their consequences in Israel. Most turn out good, some do not. We shall see.

        Apple had the option of licensing the technology from other American companies but it decided to go the much more expensive route and buy an Israeli company. They know something about the technology that you don’t. And if the technology is going to be relevant for only a couple of years, then their decision to buy it instead of license it is really stupid. But of course, Apple is smarter than all the naysayers on this board who just can’t bring themselves to admit the obvious truth, that Israel is a tech powerhouse.

        There is a reason Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, Google, Intel and now also Apple have R&D centers here and often purchase Israeli companies, and it is not the Israel lobby.

      • richb
        January 6, 2012, 9:51 am

        We also have chosen to purchase Sandforce rather than license the technology too. Being in the fabless semiconductor business I know first hand how lean it is. Companies are bought for their patents and the employees are let go. Even if not you get by with small design teams that measure in the dozens. Apple is unique in that they have chosen to not purchase the product of the merchant semiconductor vendors and have their engineers in Cupertino do everything to maximize control. To continue their strategy they needed to buy somebody and take the technology back to Cupertino in order to have 20nm flash memories work. All flash controllers have some ECC (error correcting code) technology because everything starts getting noisy. The same is true for hard drive controllers which is what I do. The manufacturers buy cheap heads and media and the controller makes it up in SNR gains. This is exactly what the technology in question does in the flash domain and all their competitors do the same.

        Right now Marvell and LSI — both American companies — split up the hard drive controller business for all five major manufacturers. With the Apple acquisition the same will be true for flash memory controllers. Zionist hubris and racism keeps the Israelis from realizing that they are not chosen because they’re smart when in reality they are chosen because they’re cheap. This is the same impulse that drives things to India and China.

      • eee
        January 6, 2012, 10:50 am

        “Zionist hubris and racism keeps the Israelis from realizing that they are not chosen because they’re smart when in reality they are chosen because they’re cheap. This is the same impulse that drives things to India and China.”

        You are so wrong it is hilarious. Anobit was bought because of its patents, know how and technology, not because of its cheap labor like in India and China. And the owners and employees of Anobit have become quite wealthy through the stock and stock options they owned, unlike their Chinese counterparts that continue to receive low pay.

      • richb
        January 6, 2012, 12:19 pm

        You say you are in high tech but I beginning to believe that you are a liar (on this topic not just in general). It’s not cheap labor driving the outsourcing it’s cheap engineering. You get five engineers from India for the price of one American one. Because of this management is tolerant of lower quality work. When startups get bought out only those at the top get wealthy while many of the engineers just get laid off.

      • Taxi
        January 6, 2012, 12:20 pm

        eee,
        “I am in the technology business”.

        LOL!

        Never in my life did I ever meat such a sadistic liar.

        Your training, your agency, your breed of arrogant theft – you’re an american yet you’re an intelligence agent for israel and communications is your field. What on earth did you do with the first eee?

        And why did you run away from me the other day when I mentioned the “Cobwebs Complex”?

      • American
        January 6, 2012, 2:14 pm

        “It is a fact that Israel developed technology that Apple did not have and therefore they acquired it. Yes, Israel is a high tech economy. I know this does not fit with your distorted picture of the world, but the facts are the facts. “……eee

        I swear eee you have to be about 16 years old or the dumbest adult on here, you talk in such simple minded terms about what you know nothing about.

        Israel has yet to “invent” anything…..what it does is take others inventions and reproduce them at a lower price because of their lower labor cost. US tech has located plants in Israel because of labor cost ( and incentives and not a little US Jewish lobbying) not because of Israeli brains or inventions.

        Current example:

        Flash memory (both NOR and NAND types) was invented by Dr. Fujio Masuoka while working for Toshiba circa 1980
        Intel Corporation saw the massive potential of the invention and introduced the first commercial NOR type flash chip in 1988
        Several companies claim to be the first to have invented the USB Flash Drive in 1998 through 2000. Trek was the first company to sell a USB Flash Drive (ThumbDrive) in early 2000. However, their patent does not describe the USB Flash Drive; instead, it describes a very broad family of storage devices, of which the USB Flash Drive is one.
        Fulford, Benjamin (24 June 2002). “Unsung hero”. Forbes. link to forbes.com. Retrieved 2008-03-18. ^ US 4531203 Fujio Masuoka

        “The Singapore Court of Appeals confirmed the validity of Trek Technology’s patent for its ThumbDrive, calling it “novel and inventive” in the decision published in The Straits Times. The city-state’s highest court also quashed the plea of four companies—Israeli firm M-Systems Flash Disk Pioneers, Electec, FE Global Electronics and Singapore-based Ritronics Components—and ordered them to stop selling similar devices. The decision is expected to have a ripple effect on other similar law suits which the Trek group has pending in Britain, Japan and Taiwan.”

        Israelis aren’t the only ones that ‘copy’ but they are ones whose industry is majority based on copying IT- the ones who have been sued the most for pirating patents for genetics and so forth. As in the Trek example above–an Israeli company M-systems was bought by Scan Disk primilary for the expected market for flash drives ..but the Israelis couldn’t even perfect what they were copying from Trek well enough to bring it to market before Trek did….that’s why they were ordered to cease selling the copy.

        You don’t even know eee what is going on in Israel….they are losing industry to India, among others, and will keep losing it because India’s and others labor cost is even lower than Israel’s. Your diamond cutting industry is mostly gone to India and China.
        link to knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu

        link to idi.org.il

        Companies offshore for COST, not innovation, they keep innovation at home for obvious reasons, and Israel who has ‘subsidized” wages can’t keep doing that forever unless it gets more and more aid and grants and subsidies from the US. And even then it won’t matter because as Israel tries to keep wages up for Israelis, companies will move. They are a hair away from the same situation US labor is in..except it will be worse.
        The US, Germany and Japan are still the major creators/inventors of IT-but now the Chineese teaming with other Asians are coming on strong.
        So Israel has the same choice as any third world country…..keep their wages low to attract industry and foster the same income inequality as they currently have, or increase wages and see industries go elsewhere and employment shrink.
        Maybe you better get busy actually inventing and patenting something yourselves so you can keep it in Israel and not be dependent on other companies locating production plants there because you are already getting left in the dust, and even all kinds of pleas and pressures from the holocuast state isn”t going to presuade companies to pay more in Israel when they could their production for less elsewhere.

        You know what Israel’s problem is? It is their age old habit of “dipping their beak”, like the old mafia, into someone else’s business. Just like getting the US to give them 12% of Egypts cotton export free trade zone for Israeli made products.
        99% of everything in Israel is someone elses, the land you stand on, the water you drink, the IT jobs Israelis have, the produce they grow on Palestine land…all of it.
        You never see trade and industry publications extrolling the accomplishments of Israel in IT, drugs, defense….the only praise you ever see comes from Israelis and zios and ‘plant’ PR stories to hype Israel…no serious, non Israeli or zios ever write about the wonder inventions of Israel.
        That’s why people like you have to spend all this time spinning about Israel.
        No one respects Israel in any aspect….and with good reason.

      • richb
        January 6, 2012, 4:15 pm

        Let’s take a look at Intel’s fab in Kiryat Gat. Adapted and edited from Electronic Intifada.

        link to electronicintifada.net

        Sixty years ago, there was no Kiryat Gat. The land it now occupies was divided between two Palestinian villages, al-Faluja and ‘Iraq al-Manshiya. While the area is well within the Green Line, Israel’s 1949-67 border, its history is in one way unique: Israeli forces never captured it during the 1948-49 war. Egyptian forces occupied it in late May 1948, and although later Israeli counter-offensives broke up their front and laid siege to the two villages — known at the time as the “Faluja pocket” — the 4,000 Egyptian troops deployed there (including a young officer named Gamal Abdel Nasser, soon to become president of his country) held out until Egypt and Israel agreed to an armistice on 24 February 1949.

        That’s when the Nakba befell al-Faluja and ‘Iraq al-Manshiya.*

        Stranded and surrounded, the Egyptians were in no position to stay in the area. To their credit, however, they insisted as a condition of their withdrawal that Israel guarantee the safety of the civilians in the area — about 2,000 locals and some 1,100 refugees from other parts of Palestine.

        As was typical the agreement was not worth the paper it was written on. Under the direction of Yitzhak Rabin the Israelis started a war of intimidation that one witness described as: “[they] created a situation of terror, entered the houses and beat the people with rifle butts.”

        Israel’s FM Sharett objected not only to the overt violence, but also to what he said was a “whispering propaganda campaign” conducted covertly by the Israeli army, threatening the civilians with “attacks and acts of vengeance by the army” if they didn’t leave the area. “This whispering propaganda is not being done of itself,” Sharett continued. “There is no doubt that here there is a calculated action aimed at increasing the number of those going to the Hebron Hills [then controlled by Jordan] as if of their own free will, and, if possible, to bring about the evacuation of the whole civilian population” of the Faluja pocket.

        By mid-March all of al-Faluja’s residents had abandoned their homes; the residents of ‘Iraq al-Manshiya held out longer, but after several shootings by Israeli sentries, the last of them — some 1,160 people — left in Red Cross-organized convoys on 21 and 22 April. Five days later, Rabin ordered the demolition of both villages.

        As for the rightful owners of the land Intel now occupies, one recent analysis reported that 14,345 refugees from ‘Iraq al-Manshiya (including the descendants of those expelled in 1949) were registered with UNRWA, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees; of these more than 9,000 were living in Jordan, more than 5,000 in the West Bank, several dozen in the US, and others scattered around the world. From al-Faluja, a 1998 estimate put the total number of refugees at 33,267. For the Israelis billions but for the Palestinians bubkis. One more thing. A modern fab uses the same amount of water of a city of 30 – 40,000 people. So, Israel stole both the land and the water.

      • eee
        January 6, 2012, 4:47 pm

        American,

        You are such a liar and you do not know what you are talking about. Intel, Microsoft etc. invest in Israel because of our innovation:
        link to seattletimes.nwsource.com

        Is the Seattle Times a Zionist mouth piece?

        Take a look at this:
        link to youtube.com

        Are Gates and Buffet Zionist mouth pieces?

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 4:52 pm

        Let’s take a look at Intel’s fab in Kiryat Gat.

        Henry Norr’s effort to shine a light on that situation is one of those gifts that keeps on giving.

      • American
        January 6, 2012, 5:30 pm

        LOL…eee

        You have used those links a dozen times.
        Yes, Seattle is a puff piece…and what do you expect Gates and Buffet to say for publication in Israel when investing for cheap labor….’hey Israelis we love you work for cheaper wages” …. rotflmao

      • richb
        January 6, 2012, 6:30 pm

        Well, duh. P = a*C*V^2*f. So, it stands to reason that lowering the frequency would consume less power. But also note that you can lower the power by lowering the activity factor through power switches and power islands or even more so by lowering the voltage through techniques such as AVS. If this is the mark of Israeli brilliance than all the sophomore EE students are also brilliant by extension. Getting back to Apple note there are no Intel processors in iPhones and iPads. That’s because they consume too much power. They all use ARM processors. ARM is based in the UK.

      • MRW
        January 6, 2012, 7:18 pm

        Once again, eee spouts technological nonsense and doesn’t bother to check the US patent offices, or even Israeli tech sites: Intel, Microsoft etc. invest in Israel because of our innovation: [meaning the Core 2 Duo chip] What Israel is good at is stealing other people’s designs.

        So who really invented the Core 2 Duo processor? Until now we all assumed that Intel scientists and engineers have been responsible for Intel’s Core 2 Duo processor. The Core 2 Duo is Intel best processor to date and brought a big jump in performance, speed and energy efficiency. But who really made the breakthrough?

        The Wisconsin Alumni Research Foundation (WARF), a private, nonprofit corporation that is a supporting organization to the university, filed a suit Tuesday in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Wisconsin. WARF are claiming Intel’s Core 2 Duo micro-architecture infringes on WARF’s U.S. Patent No. 5,781,752, entitled “Table Based Data Speculation Circuit for Parallel Processing Computer.

        ” The patent relates to a “table-based data speculation circuit for a parallel processing computer”, which effectively allows the chip to make a guess on what program instructions are coming next, giving it the opportunity to get started without having to wait for data it would otherwise be dependent upon to finish processing.

        It seems that this did not drop out of the blue for Intel. Intel spokesman is quoted saying ”I can confirm that we have been in discussions with WARF for more than a year but we didn’t expect this action.”

        Meanwhile it doesn’t seem that WARF has been very impressed “We are disappointed with Intel’s lack of response in resolving this matter, and while we were not anxious to use the courts to enforce our patent rights, we have no other recourse given our duty to protect the intellectual property of our inventors and the university”

        Only one question remains – so where did AMD get there technology from…

        The inventors were Moshovos; Andreas I. (Madison, WI), Breach; Scott E. (Madison, WI), Vijaykumar; Terani N. (Madison, WI), Sohi; Gurindar S. (Madison, WI), and they did it in 1996. If you know anything about chip development, and I do, it takes years to bring new chip designs to market because, for one thing, you have to have the technological innovations that warrant it.

        I worked on chips in the 80s that didn’t see the inside of a computer for 10 years.

        That article was written in 2007, btw.

        Tell us more about the cherry tomato and the cellphone, eee.

      • richb
        January 6, 2012, 10:30 pm

        I’ve been doing semiconductor design for over 28 years. The first chip I worked on is in the Smithsonian: link to smithsonianchips.si.edu I’ve had ten patents issued and I’ve served as a patent liaison to determine if the ideas of my colleagues are worthy to be patented. I know innovation when I see it. What eee has presented is all hat and no cattle. link to en.wiktionary.org

      • richb
        January 7, 2012, 4:39 pm

        That article was written in 2007, btw.

        How about today’s Economist instead?

        link to economist.com

        The article talks about how Intel is getting its lunch eaten by ARM in the mobile market. Funny, I remember someone here mentioning ARM. :-) The reason is Intel cannot provide a low power solution despite being “saved” by Israel. So, last month Intel reorganized all their mobile operation under Mike Bell from Silicon Valley.

        link to firstpost.com

        The response in part is to use the ultra-low voltage Medfield processor developed in Austin Texas. They are also partnering with the German chip manufacturer Infineon for their analog expertise. Israel were supposed to be the low power experts but they are nowhere to be found. That’s because Intel Israel just thought about clock speed when deep submicron designs are dominated by leakage. This involves lowering the supply voltage and other more sophisticated tricks using advanced CAD tools that any undergraduate EE student knows. Eee says they don’t need the Palestinians and the high tech world I live in doesn’t need Israel. They are so 20th Century. Scratch that. They are so 19th Century.

      • Taxi
        January 7, 2012, 10:59 pm

        Richb,
        You are the bee’s knees!

        eee,
        You’ve been pancaked by Richb’s superior knowledge – and morality!

      • richb
        January 8, 2012, 10:44 am

        Thanks, Taxi. I have the advantage of working with some ex-Intel engineers who have given me insight into their culture. The execs there are very paranoid. They do not want any one group to gain a critical mass of knowledge and become indispensable and thus negotiate for more money or better work conditions. The latter is particularly an issue where all the professionals complain bitterly about work life balance. Five years ago the “favored” group was Israel and now it appears to be Austin and five years from now it will be someone else. Ultimately this causes failures and so they played to Israeli arrogance that they were smart and others were not and not “needed”. Someone other than the execs themselves needed to be blamed.

        Intel follows the historical pattern of fascism. Here I’m using the term not to be inflammatory but literally of an alliance between big business and military authoritarianism. The Israelis should take note how quickly the Jews moved from favored to murdered in Nazi Germany. The business interests needed to blame someone else for their failures. They should also note that the Nazis went after the left and the unions before they went after the Jews.

        Ron Paul points us to the future of American fascism where the scapegoat is rotated from the Muslims and the aaaarabs to the juuuuz. American Jews are being used just like American evangelicals like myself are. Both of our traditions go against the takeover by multi-national corporations. Israeli Jews should also go to the Davidson Center and see the destruction the Romans wrought on Jerusalem. Empires and the powers that be soon get tired of troublesome clients. The Jews should read their prophets and the Christians should listen to Jesus when he said that you cannot serve both God and money.

        Here’s the bottom line. Despite what eee said we truly all need each other. We shouldn’t let our arrogance and racism get in the way of that. If we don’t hang together then we will all hang separately.

      • richb
        January 11, 2012, 12:30 pm

        “Go read the reviews of Anobit’s technology. It is the best in the world.”

        Not according to Electronic Products Magazine. Anobit’s chief competitor, Sandforce, was awarded their 2011 product of the year.

        link to wdrb.com

        “We knew there were a number of really impressive high-performance solid state drives that came out in the last year,” said Jim Harrison, west coast editor, Electronic Products. “When looking at these drives we said, ‘wait a minute, these all have one thing in common – the SF-2200 SSD processor from SandForce.’ When we looked a little further at the IC, we knew this was a winner.”

      • asherpat
        January 6, 2012, 4:50 am

        @Sumud – from Wikipedia – Israel’s GDP estimate for 2011 is $235Bn.

        US assistance is at the most $5bn, no let’s double it, to help your argumentation to $10Bn! Still less than 5% of GDP.

        So you claim that when “US…will eventually have to [stop support it]…Israel’s economy will tank shortly thereafter.”? less than 5% of GDP? Sumud?

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 10:22 am

        Israel’s GDP estimate for 2011 is $235Bn. . . . US assistance is at the most $5bn, no let’s double it, to help your argumentation to $10Bn! Still less than 5% of GDP.

        Gross Domestic Product is the market value of all final goods and services produced within a country in a given period, not the return on investment. US GDP is $14 trillion and our economy is definitely in the tank.

      • American
        January 6, 2012, 2:28 pm

        Oh plezze…..the US aid is only part of it. The US has strong armed dozens of countries in Israel’s trade behalf. The Egypt cotton export example I gave elsewhere is but one example. Without US intervention for Israel in commerce and trade, without US debt guarentees for Israel’s foreign purchases..without the US period, Israel would shrink and disappear back into the tribal encampment it was 3000 years ago.

        You’re a fool if you think US aid is all there is to the US keeping Israel afloat.
        The day Israel quits taking US money and the US quits aiding Israel thru the WTO and WB and every other agency—-will be the day you can run your mouth about how well Israel can do.

      • GalenSword
        January 11, 2012, 2:10 pm

        Official US aid is the wrong number, for US aid is a tiny part of US subsidization of Israel and even a smaller part of the costs of Israel to the USA.

        The USA probably subsidizes at least half of Israel’s GDP, and the costs of Israel probably account for at least 3/4′s of the US national debt.

        The GAO has never undertaken to calculate any of these figures, and the reasons for the lack of interest should be obvious.

    • anonymouscomments
      January 5, 2012, 2:04 pm

      eee

      the theft of water and other resources counts as integration, but this is not a requirement for apartheid to fail. apartheid by definition is illegal and unsustainable, and will fail. he was stating major reasons why they failed to form separate states, and the reasons israel may fail are quite similar, yet also unique to israel’s particular institution of apartheid.

      and BTW eee, israel is demanding too much land, which is why recent peace talks failed. the 2SS a majority of palestinians support, is not being offered, hence israel wants too much.

      i support the 2SS (but shifting) because i do not see the militant zionists allowing a sane 1SS to be reached. i think you support the 2SS…. but maybe you only support the likud perpetual apartheid option.

      if you or hophmi had any sense about yourselves you would HEED THIS MAN’S ADVICE, and make sure israel stops instituting its policies that negate the fading possibility of a 2SS. namely, they should end any increase in settlements/settlers in the WB *and* east jerusalem, currently at ~10% of israel’s population.

      in fact, you and hophmi are a major reason the 2SS will fail; your passivity and hot air and lies and rationalizations aided the expansionists while the 2SS vision got buried in fanatic settlers.
      —–
      screw it. i am now a 1SS advocate, cause eee makes me realize the futility of getting a workable 2SS.

      but the road to the 1SS will be horrible. what a sad day.

      • eee
        January 5, 2012, 2:46 pm

        anonymouscomments,

        The only thing in the way of the 2ss is the Palestinian demand for the right of return. That is what Arafat could not agree to in 2000.

        1ss will never happen. Just like in the case of Gaza, in the worst case solution, Israel will unilaterally withdraw from areas with large Arab populations.

      • justicewillprevail
        January 5, 2012, 3:17 pm

        “The only thing in the way of the 2ss is the Palestinian demand for the right of return. ”

        Are you that stupid that you actually believe this? What a piece of self-serving propaganda BS, apparently you have no knowledge of the occupation, settlements, borders or Israeli ideology. Or maybe it works as nice little get-out for you to avoid the reality of the apartheid state and its warped concept of statehood and nationality.

      • peeesss
        January 5, 2012, 6:17 pm

        EEE, Is not International Law and justice to be applied to Palestine/Israel. Israel. ? In 1948 Israel promised the return of Palestinian refugees to the lands they fled due to war for its acceptance by the UN to its membership. Since then dozens of UN resolutions have reiterated the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees. Dozens of UN Resolutions have stated the illegality of settlements {colonies] in the west bank including Jerusalem. In none of your tiresome words ,Justice, International Law are non-existent. If the Israeli govt. could just say “forgive us” for the crimes committed and acknowledge the suffering of the Palestinians and the culpability of the Zionist forces for the past 70 years it will get a more positive reponse from Palestinians . How can they respond to a government and a large segment of its people that denies their existence , let alone their suffering. Follow the path of Israel Shahak, Ian Pappe, Miko Peled. Peace follows justice

      • anonymouscomments
        January 5, 2012, 9:15 pm

        eee
        The only thing in the way of the 2ss is the Palestinian demand for the right of return.

        well eee, gotta love your self-serving logic on the “only thing” preventing the 2SS, which is not only reductionist and false, but simplistically lays the blame at the feet of the palestinians. it really is too bad those refugees aren’t zionists, huh?

        1) if your contention were actually true, then many legal scholars and moral people (some zionists included here), would state that what you really indicate is that the only barrier to a 2SS is the israeli refusal to recognize the right of return, as enshrined in multiple UN security council resolutions.

        this is not only a right *many* consider protected by international law, but is clearly due from a simple humane perspective (they were systematically ethnically cleansed, internalize this; and i think you have, but would have “held your nose”). further, excuses about the inability to absorb refugees is absurdist, as israel offers the (ironically termed) “birthright” to millions of jews worldwide, and has absorbed hundreds of thousands of jews including many non-jews (many russian gentiles).

        the fact that you insist on and support my right to immigrate to israel, and even support the growth of existing settlements (meaning i could move into a settlement in the WB on stolen private land, as some are)… while denying the right of return to a refugee who was driven from israel proper, shows your deep tribalism and moral failings.

        2) the fact that one leader was unwilling to ceed refugee rights that israel fundamentally rejects (in a unjust, racist and immoral manner), does not mean another leader might not offer different terms. ironically, it is in israel’s INTEREST to offer a robust and meaningful recognition of the right of return. getting a leader to bargain away individual rights, that the refugees fully deserve, is not a recipe for peace with a general population. it is a recipe for peace with a given pliable PA/PLO leadership.

        i suggest you think about who really is the barrier to the 2SS, and the many policies that are a barrier to a 2SS. i also suggest you look into studies which suggest the right of return can be offered in a limited, or even complete manner, yet not result in a net immigration into israel that ethnocentric racist zionist @holes cannot stomach.

        link to forward.com
        link to counterpunch.org

        BTW the full right of return is, functionally, entirely possible. it is politically impossible, only because of cold-hearted, tribalistic, self-serving apologists like you. thanks, enjoy blogging about this conflict for the rest of your natural life. then again maybe you like conflict, and i do wonder how you would fill your days if there were a viable peace…. [sorry for ranting in response to biased apologist BS, i think i'm done with that, permanently; they just make me mad...]

      • irena
        January 5, 2012, 9:15 pm

        Gaza’s air space and waters are STILL in control of Israel, that isn’t withdrawal especially when it keeps the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse DELIBERATELY.
        It is like you forcefully enter someone’s bedroom and shove them around and then as “withdrawal”, leave the room but control the entrance/exit

        A 2-state solution as it is is a farce Palestinian state which will continue to suffer (albeit suffer less) because of Israel and a 1-state solution seems like a bad idea given the Israeli-Palestinian tensions. So I am not sure what is to be done but the occupation needs to end. Remember, the South African apartheid fell and I know this makes you shit your made-in-Israel pants, but it will happen.

      • Annie Robbins
        January 5, 2012, 11:00 pm

        irena, has anyone formally welcomed you to the site? welcome! i’ve enjoyed your posts and appreciate the quality, humor, and common sense you bring to the comment section. iow, i’ve noticed. thanks

      • john h
        January 5, 2012, 11:32 pm

        Me too, hope you have plenty more to come, irena!

    • libra
      January 5, 2012, 2:18 pm

      eee: “You miss the most salient thing de Klerk is saying:….”

      Damn you eee, I hate it when you’re right. I forgot that when you Israelis steal an idea you always improve upon it. Apartheid 2.0. Brilliant. Those poor, dumb Afrikaaners. Too late for an upgrade now.

    • Koshiro
      January 5, 2012, 2:47 pm

      “This is not the case in Israel/Palestine.”
      Yes it is. And just to nip this bud, it is thoroughly irrelevant if Israel needs ‘just’ the land and the resources. The land and the resources cannot be conveniently disconnected from the people by any means other than outright ethnic cleansing, which leaves the ‘omelet’ analogy quite intact.

      “Israel is no demanding too much land”
      The funny thing is, it’s not even possible to refute this because Israel does not tell anybody how much land it is demanding.

    • pulaski
      January 5, 2012, 6:01 pm

      Yes, I think that the more recent strategy of importing migrant labor from Asia and eastern Europe was quite intentional. Although those laborers have strong grievances about the slavery like conditions, they don’t form a political block.

    • Djinn
      January 5, 2012, 8:39 pm

      Israel doesn’t need Palestinian resources cause they’re such a shining economic example, one wonders why they keep stealing from Palestininians? Irredeemable assholery? What say you eee? Much like your claim that Israel doesn’t need US money you can’t have it both ways. Either Israel *needs* to steal resources from those it oppresses & to leech from US taxpayers OR Israel takes food from the mouths of others that it does not need. Which is it?

    • Hostage
      January 5, 2012, 9:20 pm

      This is not the case in Israel/Palestine. The Palestinians need the Israelis economically but the Israelis have zero need of the Palestinians.

      You don’t appear to get the Likud talking points. There are no frontiers between Israel and all of those Palestinian natural resources on the Likud Party maps.

      The Likud Party has vowed to never allow the creation of a Palestinian state. It was the current Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, who said “A Palestinian state would control the aquifer, which gives us 30 percent of our water. Yes to a Palestinian state means no to a Jewish state, and yes to a Jewish state means no to a Palestinian State.” So yeah, you depend upon the Palestinians for basic necessities and strategic resources. For more details see link to netanyahu.org

      Don’t confuse these poor people with facts. Their heads may explode if they realize that the South Africa analogy is intellectually bankrupt.

      Netanyahu doesn’t sound confused. Unlike eee, he knows that a 30 percent shortfall in Israel’s water supply would tank the economy.

      FYI, denial of equal rights, nationality, and self-determination is the definition of apartheid that the International Court of Justice employed in the Namibia case. So Netanyahu’s postulation that I cited above is perfectly analogous to apartheid as practiced by South Africans against the people of Namibia.

      • asherpat
        January 6, 2012, 4:43 am

        @Hostage: “Netanyahu doesn’t sound confused. Unlike eee, he knows that a 30 percent shortfall in Israel’s water supply would tank the economy” Will it? Thanks god, Israeli economy is now mostly services and hi-tech, so at the most, 30% less water will squeeze the archaic agri sector, that is now a miniscule part of the economy (probably less than 5%). How exactly will it “tank the economy”?

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 10:58 am

        Will it? Thanks god, Israeli economy is now mostly services and hi-tech, so at the most, 30% less water will squeeze the archaic agri sector, that is now a miniscule part of the economy (probably less than 5%). How exactly will it “tank the economy”?

        No, 30 percent less water will squeeze those Intel chip fabricating plants too. Israelis have never exhibited the ability to conserve or allocate water wisely or protect the environment. The geniuses in charge of your national planning damn near destroyed all life in the Sea of Galilee by draining the swamps in the Hula Valley and Israel has experienced repeated water shortages since that fiasco that have resulted in drops to well below emergency levels, threatening yet another environmental disaster. You still haven’t addressed other basic necessities and strategic resources that are sourced from Palestine or explained why Bibi is so mistaken about the existential threat a Palestinian state poses to the Jewish one.

  5. HarryLaw
    January 5, 2012, 1:38 pm

    Apartheid will fail and so will a Jewish majority greater Israel. see here ["Israeli jews will lose majority":- link to imemc.org ] International Middle east media centre, 3rd January 2012.

  6. DavidHeap
    January 5, 2012, 6:04 pm

    “They decided to reject the UN partition plan and try their luck at war.”
    Palestinians did not “choose” to be the object of a vicious ethnic cleansing campaign by Zionist terrorist organizations, which began before the partition plan came it.

    All the hi-tech in the world (and even granting eee’s inflated claims, Israel has a very small portion of the world’s hi-tech development) would get very thirsty without all the water Israel is stealing from WB aquifers and from the Jordan River. Looking more like an omelet all the time….

  7. asherpat
    January 5, 2012, 9:07 pm

    So if the map of South Africa resembles the outline of Arab areas in Judea and Samaria, then the conclusion is that Israel practices Apartheid?

    Lets ask the following questions:

    1. During the relevant period, was Apartheid practiced inside the Black’s Banthustans? The answer is No.
    2. During the relevant period, was Apartheid practiced in the rest of South Africa? The aswer is Yes.

    Therefore, South Africa was an Apartheid state.

    Let’s apply the analogous qustions to Israel and the Arab territories?

    1. Is Apartheid practiced inside Areas A andB ? The answer is No (unless you are Jewish, then you can’t buy land, for example, but this is another issue).
    2. Is Apartheid practiced Areas C? The aswer is No, cos Arabs with no Israeli citizenship are travelling in those territories as alien citizens and therefore it is reasonable tthat they are not entitled to the same rights as Israeli citizens (including Israeli Arabs – which in itself destroys any pretense of Apartheid).
    3. Is Apartheid practiced inside the 1967 boders of Israel? The aswer, for any sane person is No (although admittedy there is an unlawful discrimination against non-Jews, but this is not the same as Apartheid).

    So, in all three areas, there is NO Apartheid, QED. And by the way, Mr Goldstone emphatically refuted that too, didnt he?

    • Koshiro
      January 6, 2012, 5:15 am

      “Is Apartheid practiced Areas C?”
      Of course it is. I could not, to be honest, completely follow the logical contortions you went through in order to pretend it isn’t. Israeli settlers have infinitely more rights in Area C than Palestinians have, first and foremost the right to vote for the government that rules this territory. Clear-cut apartheid.
      The same is, by the way, also true of Areas A and B. GOI still exercises sovereignty over these areas. Israelis can vote for GOI, Palestinians can’t. EOD.

      Of course, the intellectual gerrymandering you’re engaging in is nonsense to begin with, and is very much the same as the architects of the Bantustans attempted. Basically you are saying that in SA there was no apartheid because Blacks and Whites lived in separate areas, and inside of each of these areas there was no Apartheid. Which amounts to saying that there was no Apartheid because there was Apartheid – which is exactly the level of intellectual honesty your argument has.

      • asherpat
        January 6, 2012, 10:04 am

        @Koshiro – using your logic, any military occupation means Apartheid. That’s a travesty.

      • Koshiro
        January 6, 2012, 11:09 am

        No it does not for the precise reason that international law forbids settling one’s own civilian population in occupied territory and countries other than Israel tend to follow this law. Colonialism on the other hand does equal Apartheid.
        Military occupation alone would be bad and should be ended as soon as possible (in stark contrast to Israel’s efforts to entrench it). But what makes Israel’s occupation into a colonialist Apartheid regime are the settlements and the economic exploitation of the territory. No one with even the least little bit of historical knowledge can argue that this is not colonialism.

      • Hostage
        January 6, 2012, 12:04 pm

        @Koshiro – using your logic, any military occupation means Apartheid. That’s a travesty.

        Well Duh! Wars have been considered a crime against peace since the London Conference of 1945 adopted the Charter of the International Military Tribunal. The crime of aggression, as recently codified in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, provides for jurisdiction over occupations that violate the prohibitions contained in the UN Charter. So it isn’t a business with a very bright future.

    • American
      January 6, 2012, 2:44 pm

      Humm….I’ve seen asherpat’s cut and paste comment somewhere else recently. can’t think of exactly where, maybe at Col. Langs?
      But whether the Israeli apartheid is exactly like SA apartheid or not doesn’t matter.
      There are enough similarities and more than enough war crimes and international law violations to sink Israel if we can pry the US from between Israel and the ICC.

  8. john h
    January 5, 2012, 11:37 pm

    Here’s the view on proposed legislation of a former Israeli ambassador to South Africa.

    link to euobserver.com

  9. jayn0t
    January 6, 2012, 11:04 am

    The analogy with South Africa isn’t exact. There are fewer Palestinians knocking about the place than Jews (because most of them were driven away). Israel has broken many economic ties to Palestinians, and brought in others to do the low paid jobs.

    But another difference is that South Africa really was an ally of the other Western countries (fighting Soviet-backed forces, keeping the place a capitalist free market) whereas Israel is not. Support for Israel is more irrational than support for apartheid. As for the moral argument, the analogy works – it’s against the principles of Western countries to have a member with a constitution expressly based on racial discrimination. Unless it’s Jewish.

  10. MHughes976
    January 6, 2012, 12:02 pm

    I agree with de Klerk on points 1-2, which seem to mean that there could never anywhere at all be agreement on a 2ss which partitions the territory with enormous unfairness when you compare the size of the populations versus the area of land and the location of natural resources. This is one of the reasons why the Palestinian 2ss, which is massively unfair, is always talked about but is not actually on the table as a proposition for negotiation – the Palestinians could never in their hearts accept it, even with the few modifications that negotiations might bring, so the Israelis cannot find it in their hearts to offer it.
    The Israeli and Palestinian economies must be linked to some degree but must contain barriers of all sorts between the two sides. The removal of these barriers would presumably be good for the prosperity of both but the Israelis are doing well enough not to think that those gains would be worth the cost. Actually I think that the young de Klerk also thought that the economic gains of removing the equivalent barriers in SA would not be worth the cost, but had to change his mind for other reasons.
    De Klerk’s remarks may not have very optimistic implications – they may indicate that years of tragedy, physical suffering and moral calamity, lie ahead.

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