This past weekend saw a spirited and sometimes angry debate on twitter over racism, Israel/Palestine, and BDS (Phil referenced it briefly here). The discussion was touched off by a critique of BDS from The Nation's Ben Adler, which was responding to Kiera Feldman's report on the Park Slope Food Co-op boycott vote. In his article Adler wrote:
And Israel's destruction is indeed what BDS seeks. Calling for a Palestinian "right of return" is, as Feldman acknowledges, calling for the demographic abolition of Israel as a Jewish state. A lot of people have fled persecution over the years. I have no right of return to the Eastern European countries where my ancestors feared pogroms, nor do Israelis. Native Americans cannot reclaim the land in Brooklyn that the Park Slope Food Coop currently occupies.
The ensuing exchange lasted for nearly 26 hours, with many chiming in (including me tweeting under the Mondoweiss account).
Below are snippets from the discussion (see Adler's twitter page for the full discussion).
Was it racist of Arabs in Palestine to oppose Jewish immigration in the 20s? Was it still racist of them to oppose allowing Jewish refugees to escape Germany in the 30s? Was it racist of them to oppose allowing Jewish concentration camp survivors to come to Palestine after WWII?
Actually no. Communities have a right to craft demographic policies that serve their own national interest. Even if it harms the interests of outsiders.
That said, man oh man how I wish perestroika had happened after the signing of an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty.
If Latinos (or anyone else) were immigrating to the US under the banner of an organization with a declared intention to drive us out of our homes and take over our land, of course we would have a right to resist that. If they succeeded in driving us out of our homes and taking over our land, we would have a right to return.
It’s all so devilishly simple.
Israel had the back luck of being one of the last Western projects of mass expulsion, just at the point when such things were becoming gauche. And its only real defense is, “But other people did it and got away with it in the past! Why not us? I’m not racist, you are! Saudi Arabia sucks! Waaah! Screw it, I’m gonna watch Mad Men.”
Pamela — also one might mention that (some) Israelis claim a form of justification or “birth certificate” for Israel in UNGA 181 which proposed two countries, EACH with a mixed population, and without discrimination and CERTAINLY without expulsion of Arabs by Jews.
(Others correctly identify Israel’s birth certificate as the barrels of many guns. And a few still profess to discern an internationally meaningful “birth certificate” for Israel in ancient Jewish myths and/or long-term Jewish ambitions and yearnings.)
Now, today, after all its crimes against the Palestinians, Israel has the nerve (and gall and chutzpa) to say, “Well, on second thoughts, we wanted, actually, a Jewish State, not merely a Democratic state and not merely a refuge for Jews, and we want it REALLY BIG, too, and we assume that all the world joins with us in the idea that we DESERVE to have a “Jewish State” (meaning: vastly predominantly Jewish population) on a REALLY BIG territory.
But the world already said, UNGA 194 (1948) that there was a RoR for peaceable refugees. So, the world has already NOT AGREED, Ya Yahoudi, and persists in not agreeing! And the Fourth Geneva Convention (and UNSC and ICJ) have attested that the settlement project violates international law, so that Israel is not entitled (today — in the absence of a peace treaty) to occupy the post-1967 lands.
When is Israel going to learn to play well (or at all) with the other children?
Neither Arab opposition to Jewish immigration in the ’20s, nor Zionist opposition to Palestinian ROR are immigration issues. The former was rooted in opposition to an openly declared colonialist project (entailing organised, externally imposed demographic change), and the latter is an attempt to deny the land’s native inhabitants (and their descendants born abroad as a direct result of their parents’ or grandparents’ ethnic cleansing) the right to return to their country (see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights).
Were it merely a matter of immigration policy, Israeli policy would be still be racist. But it is in fact far worse than that. Israel’s current “demographic policies” vis-à-vis the Palestinian refugees are in fact a sort of maintenance phase of ethnic cleansing. Israel has every right to negotiate the feasibility and modalities of possible return, but denying the Palestinian ROR in order to safeguard the state’s “Jewish character” – achieved through ethnic cleansing, discriminatory immigration, etc. – cannot possibly be reconciled with democratic, liberal or progressive values. It is a racist position.
Shmuel, can you believe we grew up and for decades no one was talking about the ‘Jewish character’ except nutters? Israel is to Judaism what Ahmadinijad is to Shia Islam.
I grew up hearing “medinah yehudit” (Jewish state) and “yehudit ve-demokratit” (Jewish and democratic) until it came out of my ears. I was just out of high school when the “Basic Law: The Knesset” was amended to ban parties that “negate the Jewish or democratic character of the state” (not the exact wording of the law, but the terms in which it was discussed), and remember arguing with one of my yeshivah teachers about the contradiction between “Jewish” and “democratic” (I accepted his pat answer, but didn’t like it).
It’s the Palestinian ROR no one was talking about in Jewish, Israeli circles. I didn’t hear about that in any serious context until I was 34 years old – and that’s only because I went looking for trouble.
Weiss covered the way you can outright racist and nativist stuff like “demographic abolition” under the cover of Zionism. And Beinart even tweeted his approval of Adler’s piece on his twitter feed.
A privileged South African American Jew.A real conundrum there,as when did he leave South Africa,when the ANC took over?
How do these intellectual frauds become pooh bahs of debate?
Nevermind.(hey,that fits!)
RE: “I have no right of return to the Eastern European countries where my ancestors feared pogroms, nor do Israelis.” ~ Ben Adler
CHRIS HEDGES, 3/05/12: (excerpt)…The Israeli poet Aharon Shabtai, in his poem “Rypin,” translated by Peter Cole, examined what power, force and self-worship do to compassion, justice and human decency. Rypin was the Polish town his father escaped from during the pogroms.
These creatures in helmets and khakis,
I say to myself, aren’t Jews,
In the truest sense of the word. A Jew
Doesn’t dress himself up with weapons like jewelry,
Doesn’t believe in the barrel of a gun aimed at a target,
But in the thumb of the child who was shot at—
In the house through which he comes and goes,
Not in the charge that blows it apart.
The coarse soul and iron first
He scorns by nature.
He lifts his eyes not to the officer, or the soldier
With his finger on the trigger—but to justice,
And he cries out for compassion.
Therefore, he won’t steal land from its people
And will not starve them in camps.
The voice calling for expulsion
Is heard from the hoarse throat of the oppressor—
A sure sign that the Jew has entered a foreign country
And, like Umberto Saba, gone into hiding within his own city.
Because of voices like these, father
At age sixteen, with your family, you fled Rypin;
Now here Rypin is your son.
following a lot of this on ‘real time’ i was actually astounded at alders tweets. that he could reveal this level of myopic-ness and shifty/twisty word games to make his ‘pts’. all about ot scoring and he wasn’t bashful about his immaturity, he just splayed it all out there for the world to see. i was surprised he was writing for the nation i suppose because i hold then to a higher standard, or did. it just goes to show what kind of stuff gets published nowadays under the guise of ‘balance’.
anyway, i wonder if one day he will look back on this exchange and read it like others do or if he will just grow into a fullblown unabashed self identifying ‘liberal’ neocon.
Since Vandenhuevel took over the Nation,it’s become a farce.I also get the Washington Report newsletter by one Lou Dubose.It also sucks and has become nothing but a shill for the democrats as the Nation has, a complete mockery of their mission to inform.And look at the Guardian,a once stalwart defender of right,which has now joined the neolibcon ranks of traitors.
When Adler writes “Native Americans cannot reclaim the land in Brooklyn that the Park Slope Food Coop currently occupies”, he is deliberately choosing his words in order to confuse the issue. Native Americans do have the right to return to Brooklyn and live as equals with all other Americans. They even have the right to purchase the Park Slope Coop. His beloved Israel refuses to give similar rights to Palestinians.
“I have no right of return to the Eastern European countries where my ancestors feared pogroms, nor do Israelis.” ~ Ben Adler
He’s either a liar, ignorant or NOT a refugee. Next he comes with this Hasbara bullsh*te someone ought point him to the German legislation granting RoR even for non-refugees (i.e., those who have taken citizenship elsewhere) AND their lineal descendents
Wait, so Jews who fled Poland (by the millions) after a systematic government sponsored campaign of ethnic cleansing now have a right of return??
Those who left after ’58 do have that right (as do other refugees from the Communist regime). Many thousands of Israelis have applied for Polish citizenship on this basis – although very few (if any) have actually chosen to return to Poland. Others may enter Poland as tourists, apply for residency and citizenship – just like anyone else. Israeli immigration and naturalisation laws deny even that to Palestinian refugees.
AFTER 1958!!! Wow, that’s marvelous! So, let’s see–in 1958 21,000 Jews remain out of 3.8 million in 1938. If Israel killed 94% of Palestinians would you be praising their efforts to repatriate a few hundred survivors?
How many ethnically-cleansed Jews have demanded the right to return to Poland and have been turned down? The fact is that Poland recognises the right of Jews stripped of their citizenship and/or forced to leave the country, to regain their citizenship and return if they like. If you know of cases in which this right has been demanded and rejected by the Polish authorities, please let us know.
Jews ethnically cleansed from Poland by the Nazis had the right to repatriation after the war. Most, understandably chose not to exercise that right. Palestinians were never granted that right.
Israel is still actively ethnically cleansing the territories under its control and stripping Palestinians of citizenship and residency rights.
Terry sweetie, German Nazis were the ones who killed 3 million Polish Jews, as well as killing 3 million non-Jewish Poles during the same time period, while the Soviet Union had killed hundreds of thousands of Poles, most of them non-Jews, simply because they were Polish. Nazi Germany doesn’t exist anymore. Poland is the one that is allowing Polish Jews to repatriate if they wish. The action deserves commendation. You’re plainly just upset that your attempt at hasbara failed because of your ignorance. The fact is that Poland is granting rights to Jews (as it should) that Jews in Israel are refusing to grant to Palestinians, while Israel is at the same time continuing with more slow-motion ethnic cleansing.
You are simply ignorant or just spreading zionist hasbarah.
In Germany there are about 200,000 jews, mostly from the old SU, who have absolutly no connection to that country.
Many do not speak german and are old and drawing a retirement income HIGHER than the average german does, although they never paid a penny into that programme!!!
You zionists spread all this stories so your citizens in Israel will not pack up and go back to Europe.
“I’m a liberal b/c ,ya know, I wrt for liberal mags for a whole 2 yrs. Cant wait to see mad men as they explore how amercn jews were segregated in the 1960s. So awsme!” -I can see how twitter is such a poor means of communication. It really turns a debate into a caricature.
A lot of his arguments, from the snippets, seem to want to turn the heat on Saudi Arabia or the US. Not convincing at all. Deflection seems to be cetnral to his repertoire.
At Twitter there was a question if I can return to Hungary?
Yes, you can, as many jews did. As matter of fact, there is a school teaching israeli children the hungarian language, because “that is their future home”!
Israelis opened businesses in Hungary, and many jews have double citizenship moving back and forth between the two countries.
I am sure Hungary would welcome jews if they come to become hungarians and go to work. Zionists and ultra orthodox jews better stay in Israel, they will not be happy there.
Hungary did not hand out the jews during WWII until during 1944 the SS kidnapped the son of the regent Horthy, forcing him to resign. Under SS guidance a new government headed by Szálasi took over and only then were jews deported by Eichmann. Without this SS coupe most likely the hungarian government would have never agreed to the deportation.
Contrary to the numbers flying around, a great number of the deported jews came home again, including the family of my oldest friend.
Theo, the same is true about Romania. People evicted or deported during WWII or during the persecutions of the communist regime that took over can claim Romanian citizenship.
It is true that every Israeli who can arms themselves with a second citizenship. Unfortunately, too many of those Israelis who do become dual citizens and start to reside in places like Hungary and Romania and Germany still bring with them the total arrogance, selfishness and disregard for others that they imbibed growing up in Israel. The sense of exceptionalism coupled with consdescention to others are not as easy to shed as domicile.
In Germany a great number of illegal brothels and casinos are owned by israeli criminals, when they are cought, they just take the next plane back to Israel and the german authorities have absolutly no chance to put them in jail.
This must stop if israelis do not want to be disliked, I using the mildest form of that feeling. Having a chip on the shoulder does not help establishing a friendly relationship.
‘Forward’piece on destruction of Palestinian neighborhood fronting Western Wall not embraced by all ‘Forward’ readers http://t.co/a8nvXYynM6,18 hours ago
Israel cracks down on American travel to West Bank by requiring tourists to obtain military permit http://t.co/vNUagVufkS,18 hours ago
Israel is Jewish and democratic because it is Jewish and democratic, and I am a liberal because I am a liberal.
You can’t argue with that sort of logic. Seriously, you can’t.
LOL
Ben Adler’s argument is air-tight!
Was it racist of Arabs in Palestine to oppose Jewish immigration in the 20s? Was it still racist of them to oppose allowing Jewish refugees to escape Germany in the 30s? Was it racist of them to oppose allowing Jewish concentration camp survivors to come to Palestine after WWII?
Actually no. Communities have a right to craft demographic policies that serve their own national interest. Even if it harms the interests of outsiders.
That said, man oh man how I wish perestroika had happened after the signing of an Israeli-Palestinian peace treaty.
If Latinos (or anyone else) were immigrating to the US under the banner of an organization with a declared intention to drive us out of our homes and take over our land, of course we would have a right to resist that. If they succeeded in driving us out of our homes and taking over our land, we would have a right to return.
It’s all so devilishly simple.
Israel had the back luck of being one of the last Western projects of mass expulsion, just at the point when such things were becoming gauche. And its only real defense is, “But other people did it and got away with it in the past! Why not us? I’m not racist, you are! Saudi Arabia sucks! Waaah! Screw it, I’m gonna watch Mad Men.”
Pamela — also one might mention that (some) Israelis claim a form of justification or “birth certificate” for Israel in UNGA 181 which proposed two countries, EACH with a mixed population, and without discrimination and CERTAINLY without expulsion of Arabs by Jews.
(Others correctly identify Israel’s birth certificate as the barrels of many guns. And a few still profess to discern an internationally meaningful “birth certificate” for Israel in ancient Jewish myths and/or long-term Jewish ambitions and yearnings.)
Now, today, after all its crimes against the Palestinians, Israel has the nerve (and gall and chutzpa) to say, “Well, on second thoughts, we wanted, actually, a Jewish State, not merely a Democratic state and not merely a refuge for Jews, and we want it REALLY BIG, too, and we assume that all the world joins with us in the idea that we DESERVE to have a “Jewish State” (meaning: vastly predominantly Jewish population) on a REALLY BIG territory.
But the world already said, UNGA 194 (1948) that there was a RoR for peaceable refugees. So, the world has already NOT AGREED, Ya Yahoudi, and persists in not agreeing! And the Fourth Geneva Convention (and UNSC and ICJ) have attested that the settlement project violates international law, so that Israel is not entitled (today — in the absence of a peace treaty) to occupy the post-1967 lands.
When is Israel going to learn to play well (or at all) with the other children?
Newclench,
Neither Arab opposition to Jewish immigration in the ’20s, nor Zionist opposition to Palestinian ROR are immigration issues. The former was rooted in opposition to an openly declared colonialist project (entailing organised, externally imposed demographic change), and the latter is an attempt to deny the land’s native inhabitants (and their descendants born abroad as a direct result of their parents’ or grandparents’ ethnic cleansing) the right to return to their country (see the Universal Declaration of Human Rights).
Were it merely a matter of immigration policy, Israeli policy would be still be racist. But it is in fact far worse than that. Israel’s current “demographic policies” vis-à-vis the Palestinian refugees are in fact a sort of maintenance phase of ethnic cleansing. Israel has every right to negotiate the feasibility and modalities of possible return, but denying the Palestinian ROR in order to safeguard the state’s “Jewish character” – achieved through ethnic cleansing, discriminatory immigration, etc. – cannot possibly be reconciled with democratic, liberal or progressive values. It is a racist position.
Shmuel, can you believe we grew up and for decades no one was talking about the ‘Jewish character’ except nutters? Israel is to Judaism what Ahmadinijad is to Shia Islam.
Newclench,
I grew up hearing “medinah yehudit” (Jewish state) and “yehudit ve-demokratit” (Jewish and democratic) until it came out of my ears. I was just out of high school when the “Basic Law: The Knesset” was amended to ban parties that “negate the Jewish or democratic character of the state” (not the exact wording of the law, but the terms in which it was discussed), and remember arguing with one of my yeshivah teachers about the contradiction between “Jewish” and “democratic” (I accepted his pat answer, but didn’t like it).
It’s the Palestinian ROR no one was talking about in Jewish, Israeli circles. I didn’t hear about that in any serious context until I was 34 years old – and that’s only because I went looking for trouble.
Newclench said:
Palestinians are not foreign to the land. Your brethern are.
There was a tiny amount of Jews in the land and the rest flooded Palestine and eventually USURPED the indigenous population.
That is what happened. Not the other way around.
The context is completely different. Palestinians are not recent immigrants. You are.
Weiss covered the way you can outright racist and nativist stuff like “demographic abolition” under the cover of Zionism. And Beinart even tweeted his approval of Adler’s piece on his twitter feed.
That should give some here pause.
When has Beinhart had to defend his views in a meaningful debate?
Not with other Zionists. But with Palestinians and anti-Zionists.
He is a privileged American Jew and is happy in his Zionist bubble, only wanting his Zionism to be given a makeover.
A privileged South African American Jew.A real conundrum there,as when did he leave South Africa,when the ANC took over?
How do these intellectual frauds become pooh bahs of debate?
Nevermind.(hey,that fits!)
RE: “I have no right of return to the Eastern European countries where my ancestors feared pogroms, nor do Israelis.” ~ Ben Adler
CHRIS HEDGES, 3/05/12: (excerpt)…The Israeli poet Aharon Shabtai, in his poem “Rypin,” translated by Peter Cole, examined what power, force and self-worship do to compassion, justice and human decency. Rypin was the Polish town his father escaped from during the pogroms.
SOURCE – link to commondreams.org
Thanks, Dickerson. From whatever discipline, you always find the right gem.
following a lot of this on ‘real time’ i was actually astounded at alders tweets. that he could reveal this level of myopic-ness and shifty/twisty word games to make his ‘pts’. all about ot scoring and he wasn’t bashful about his immaturity, he just splayed it all out there for the world to see. i was surprised he was writing for the nation i suppose because i hold then to a higher standard, or did. it just goes to show what kind of stuff gets published nowadays under the guise of ‘balance’.
anyway, i wonder if one day he will look back on this exchange and read it like others do or if he will just grow into a fullblown unabashed self identifying ‘liberal’ neocon.
Since Vandenhuevel took over the Nation,it’s become a farce.I also get the Washington Report newsletter by one Lou Dubose.It also sucks and has become nothing but a shill for the democrats as the Nation has, a complete mockery of their mission to inform.And look at the Guardian,a once stalwart defender of right,which has now joined the neolibcon ranks of traitors.
When Adler writes “Native Americans cannot reclaim the land in Brooklyn that the Park Slope Food Coop currently occupies”, he is deliberately choosing his words in order to confuse the issue. Native Americans do have the right to return to Brooklyn and live as equals with all other Americans. They even have the right to purchase the Park Slope Coop. His beloved Israel refuses to give similar rights to Palestinians.
Astute observation.
“I have no right of return to the Eastern European countries where my ancestors feared pogroms, nor do Israelis.” ~ Ben Adler
He’s either a liar, ignorant or NOT a refugee. Next he comes with this Hasbara bullsh*te someone ought point him to the German legislation granting RoR even for non-refugees (i.e., those who have taken citizenship elsewhere) AND their lineal descendents
His Hasbarrow overfloweth
Wait, so Jews who fled Poland (by the millions) after a systematic government sponsored campaign of ethnic cleansing now have a right of return??
Wait, so Jews who fled Poland (by the millions) after a systematic government sponsored campaign of ethnic cleansing now have a right of return??
Those who left after ’58 do have that right (as do other refugees from the Communist regime). Many thousands of Israelis have applied for Polish citizenship on this basis – although very few (if any) have actually chosen to return to Poland. Others may enter Poland as tourists, apply for residency and citizenship – just like anyone else. Israeli immigration and naturalisation laws deny even that to Palestinian refugees.
AFTER 1958!!! Wow, that’s marvelous! So, let’s see–in 1958 21,000 Jews remain out of 3.8 million in 1938. If Israel killed 94% of Palestinians would you be praising their efforts to repatriate a few hundred survivors?
Terry,
How many ethnically-cleansed Jews have demanded the right to return to Poland and have been turned down? The fact is that Poland recognises the right of Jews stripped of their citizenship and/or forced to leave the country, to regain their citizenship and return if they like. If you know of cases in which this right has been demanded and rejected by the Polish authorities, please let us know.
Jews ethnically cleansed from Poland by the Nazis had the right to repatriation after the war. Most, understandably chose not to exercise that right. Palestinians were never granted that right.
Israel is still actively ethnically cleansing the territories under its control and stripping Palestinians of citizenship and residency rights.
Terry sweetie, German Nazis were the ones who killed 3 million Polish Jews, as well as killing 3 million non-Jewish Poles during the same time period, while the Soviet Union had killed hundreds of thousands of Poles, most of them non-Jews, simply because they were Polish. Nazi Germany doesn’t exist anymore. Poland is the one that is allowing Polish Jews to repatriate if they wish. The action deserves commendation. You’re plainly just upset that your attempt at hasbara failed because of your ignorance. The fact is that Poland is granting rights to Jews (as it should) that Jews in Israel are refusing to grant to Palestinians, while Israel is at the same time continuing with more slow-motion ethnic cleansing.
Terry
You are simply ignorant or just spreading zionist hasbarah.
In Germany there are about 200,000 jews, mostly from the old SU, who have absolutly no connection to that country.
Many do not speak german and are old and drawing a retirement income HIGHER than the average german does, although they never paid a penny into that programme!!!
You zionists spread all this stories so your citizens in Israel will not pack up and go back to Europe.
>> So, let’s see–in 1958 21,000 Jews remain out of 3.8 million in 1938. If Israel killed 94% of Palestinians …
However, according to his previous comment:
>> … Jews who fled Poland (by the millions) …
So, although 94% of Poland’s 3.8 million Jews were killed by Germans, they still managed to flee Poland by the millions. The math is very creative.
“@kierafeldman how exactly is referring to a demographic reality that would end Israel as a Jewish and democratic state racistBen Adler”
Wow, that Adler guy is one stupid moron.
“I’m a liberal b/c ,ya know, I wrt for liberal mags for a whole 2 yrs. Cant wait to see mad men as they explore how amercn jews were segregated in the 1960s. So awsme!” -I can see how twitter is such a poor means of communication. It really turns a debate into a caricature.
A lot of his arguments, from the snippets, seem to want to turn the heat on Saudi Arabia or the US. Not convincing at all. Deflection seems to be cetnral to his repertoire.
At Twitter there was a question if I can return to Hungary?
Yes, you can, as many jews did. As matter of fact, there is a school teaching israeli children the hungarian language, because “that is their future home”!
Israelis opened businesses in Hungary, and many jews have double citizenship moving back and forth between the two countries.
I am sure Hungary would welcome jews if they come to become hungarians and go to work. Zionists and ultra orthodox jews better stay in Israel, they will not be happy there.
I would like to add:
Hungary did not hand out the jews during WWII until during 1944 the SS kidnapped the son of the regent Horthy, forcing him to resign. Under SS guidance a new government headed by Szálasi took over and only then were jews deported by Eichmann. Without this SS coupe most likely the hungarian government would have never agreed to the deportation.
Contrary to the numbers flying around, a great number of the deported jews came home again, including the family of my oldest friend.
Theo, the same is true about Romania. People evicted or deported during WWII or during the persecutions of the communist regime that took over can claim Romanian citizenship.
It is true that every Israeli who can arms themselves with a second citizenship. Unfortunately, too many of those Israelis who do become dual citizens and start to reside in places like Hungary and Romania and Germany still bring with them the total arrogance, selfishness and disregard for others that they imbibed growing up in Israel. The sense of exceptionalism coupled with consdescention to others are not as easy to shed as domicile.
You are so right!!
In Germany a great number of illegal brothels and casinos are owned by israeli criminals, when they are cought, they just take the next plane back to Israel and the german authorities have absolutly no chance to put them in jail.
This must stop if israelis do not want to be disliked, I using the mildest form of that feeling. Having a chip on the shoulder does not help establishing a friendly relationship.