After LGBT forum, Oren will headline for notorious homophobic pastor John Hagee

Israel/Palestine
on 65 Comments
Oren CUFI 2010
John Hagee (center) and Michael Oren (to the right of Hagee), 2010 CUFI Summit

What does the Equality Forum’s LGBT Summit and a conference hosted by a notorious homophobic pastor have in common?

The same headlining speaker.

Last Saturday, Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren gave the keynote address at the Equality Forum’s “International Equality Dinner” in Philadelphia. The dinner was part of the Equality Forum’s annual Global LGBT Summit, which this year highlighted Israel as a “featured nation.” Queer activists protested the summit for being used in a “pinkwashing” campaign to cover Israel’s oppression of Palestinians by exploiting queer struggles.

Nevertheless, having used his keynote speech to misrepresent the advances in queer rights in Israel (as I explain below), Oren is now set to attend a banquet at the Christians United for Israel Summit in DC on July 17, where he will be sharing the stage with CUFI’s founder and chairman, the homophobic pastor John Hagee.

It will mark the fourth time that Oren has addressed the annual CUFI summit since becoming Israel’s ambassador to the US in 2009.

Although Oren and Hagee will be the only two headlining speakers for this year’s CUFI banquet (as was the case in 2010), Oren shared the stage with both Hagee and Glenn Beck at last year’s banquet.

Oren CUFI 2011
Michael Oren, Glenn Beck, and John Hagee, 2011 CUFI Summit banquet

Hagee’s homophobia

John Hagee has a record of making racist, sexist, anti-Catholic, Islamophobic and anti-Semitic remarks, but here I will only present some of his homophobic statements.

Oren tshirt
A t-shirt spotted by Max Blumenthal and Thomas Shomaker at the second annual CUFI Summit, 2007.

In 2006, Hagee explained that Hurricane Katrina was God’s response to a planned pride parade in New Orleans:

New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God…There was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other gay pride parades…And I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was in fact the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.

In 2003, Hagee stated that the Antichrist would materialize as a “a blasphemer and a homosexual,” as well as “be partially Jewish, as was Adolf Hitler.”

Hagee’s 2004 book, What Every Man Wants in a Woman, warns that

Homosexuality means the death of society because homosexuals can recruit, but they cannot reproduce. Once homosexuality gets out of the closet, it becomes aggressive…[Homosexuals] do not want mere acceptance; they want to be in charge.

Hagee then tells a story about how he supposedly healed a man of homosexuality. Furthermore,

The word abomination in Hebrew means “something disgusting, abhorrent,” the strongest Bible word for the denunciation of sin. It is impossible to call yourself a Christian and defend homosexuality. There is no justification or acceptance of homosexuality. How many ways can you say “abomination” in Hebrew?

Perhaps Oren can answer that when he sees Hagee.

Oren CUFI 2009
Oren, pictured with John Hagee’s wife Diana, whose own books warn of “young men seduced into homosexuality” and those who are “ravaged by the sin of homosexuality,” 2009 CUFI Summit.

John Hagee has proven to be so controversial that during the 2008 presidential campaign, Republican candidate John McCain rejected Hagee’s endorsement of him after a 2005 recording was released of Hagee claiming that God sent Hitler to initiate the Holocaust in order to force Jews to move to Palestine.

At the time, McCain issued a statement:

Obviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them. I did not know of them before Reverend Hagee’s endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well.

Yet Hagee’s remarks, along with his claims that Jewish “disobedience” is responsible for “birth[ing] the seed of antisemitism,” culminating in the Holocaust under Hitler, who was a “half-breed Jew”—not to mention the homophobic statements that should alarm a gay-friendly Israel—have not prevented several Israeli officials including Michael Oren from embracing Hagee and his Christians United for Israel.

“There’s a first time for everything, Bob.”

Oren’s relationship with the homophobic and anti-Semitic pastor did not begin with his 2009 post as ambassador.

At the 2007 AIPAC conference, while still posing as an “impartial” historian, Oren appeared in a double bill with Hagee for a plenary session entitled “The United States and Israel: Tradition and Transcendence.”

The following year, on October 26, 2008, Oren spoke at Hagee’s Cornerstone mega-church in Texas, where he again shared the stage with Hagee, both delivering keynote addresses.

Oren later recounted this event at the 2009 CUFI summit, stating that he was

delighted to be hosted by Pastor John Hagee and his remarkable wife and family…for an evening of a “Salute to Israel”—6,000 people standing and waving the Israeli flag and singing “Hatikva.” I had never seen anything like it in my life.

To be fair to Oren, it’s not every day that you see 6,000 Christians—most of whom presumably believe that the Jews will soon be immolated in a “lake of fire burning with brimstone”—waving Israeli flags and singing “Hatikva” in San Antonio, Texas.

Oren Cornerstone
6,000 Israel groupies salute impartial historian Michael Oren at John Hagee’s Cornerstone megachurch, San Antonio, Texas, 2008.

Saved by evangelicals

On Jan 17, 2007, two months before first sharing a stage with John Hagee at the AIPAC conference, Oren addressed an audience at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, where he was promoting his book, Power, Faith, and Fantasy: America in the Middle East. During the Q&A, Oren was asked to speak about the phenomenon of apocalyptic Christian evangelicals. His response:

I understand…that the apocalyptic brand of evangelical Christianity today in America is a minority school. I have never met personally anybody who subscribes to it, including the numerous evangelical Christians that I meet in Israel periodically. But I know it’s out there, and I share your fear and repulsion.

Oren both downplayed the breadth of the movement and was either being disingenuous or quickly learned to temper his “repulsion” toward such ideas, as he would soon develop a relationship with Hagee, one of the world’s most prominent and influential voices of the apocalyptic strand of evangelicalism. (And just a month after his CFR talk, Oren appeared on the 700 Club to discuss his book with Pat Robertson, who has his own record of odious views.)

A day after his CFR talk, Oren gave an interview to the Jewish Daily Forward, where he explained his debt to the evangelical Christian right in the US:

If it hadn’t been for George Bush between 2001 and 2005, I’m not sure the Jewish state would have survived…A year into the Bush administration, after 9/11, Bush started giving an unqualified green light to the IDF to go in and smash terror. By doing that, they created a situation where the tourists came back, foreign investment came back. The fact that you could walk down the street as a tourist in Jerusalem today owes a lot to the Bush administration. But the Bush administration owes a lot, in turn, to evangelical backing. So how am I to gainsay that this particular community helped save the lives of my family?

For those who have trouble following Oren’s logical sequence, it goes like this:

  1. Evangelicals helped get George Bush into office.
  2. George Bush gave Israel the green light to attack Palestinians.
  3. This caused a resurgence of tourism and foreign investment in Israel.
  4. Tourists can now walk down a Jerusalem street.
  5. Michael Oren’s family is saved.

And though Oren has spoken at every single CUFI DC Summit since becoming ambassador, one should not assume that he goes simply because he has been invited. In 2009, he sparked controversy by rejecting an invitation to attend the first J Street conference. Oren later explained that the liberal Zionist organization posed a “unique problem” to Israel and was “significantly out of the mainstream”—clearly not a problem he has with CUFI.

Michael Oren’s pinkwashing demonstration

As should be clear, Oren’s willingness to brag about queer rights at an LGBT summit and then later pander for support from homophobes indicates that his commitment is neither to the queer struggle nor to the evangelical mission. His agenda is to garner support for the one remaining government that he declares loyalty to—from wherever support can be garnered using whatever means are necessary.

We can look at some comments leading up to and during his Equality Forum talk to see how he exploits the queer rights issue.

For instance, in an interview given just before the LGBT Summit, Oren claimed that

Israel has always had a commitment to gay rights. The Israeli Declaration of Independence guaranteed equality for everyone irrespective of sex…Israel was fighting for gay rights before the 1967 war…

…which must have been an interesting fight, considering that Israel did not repeal its anti-sodomy law until 1988. Moreover, the repeal was accomplished not by the good will of the Israeli government, but rather by the hard work of Israeli queer activists. As Lee Walzer explains in Between Sodom and Eden: A Gay Journey Through Today’s Changing Israel,

[D]oing things quietly, even sub rosa—defined a period of Israeli lesbian and gay activism that dates from the 1980s through the early 1990s. During that period, fearful of the power of religious parties in the Knesset, gay rights supporters would call votes late at night, with only supporters present. That is how they ensured repeal of the country’s sodomy law in 1988. Former Aguda chair Avi Sofer once remarked to me, “We live in a crazy system. We’ve never gotten a majority of 61 votes (out of 120) in the Knesset on any issue. Our victories are always 8–5, 16–9, 31–17. We sometimes hide Knesset members, or wait until it’s a day of fasting. Then we rush our supporters into the room, call a vote, and disappear.”

As with every other struggle by oppressed peoples, it is only after victories are achieved by activists that the government takes credit for the struggle and claims that the freedoms won fulfilled its original intentions.

By making similar comments that directly tie Israel’s advances in gay rights to its conflict with the Palestinians—thus exploiting queer struggles in order to portray Israel as morally superior to the people that it oppresses—Oren gives a textbook demonstration of pinkwashing.

(A deeper exploration of the logic of pinkwashing is forthcoming.)

One should be wary of claims made by any government, especially in the absence of its most oppressed, that its commitment to equality is unequivocal. Take a pronouncement made by Oren at the LGBT Summit:

We must never cease our efforts to remove the remaining obstacles to total equal rights in Israel. We must ensure that these rights are guaranteed in law, and we must ensure that abuse at school, intolerance by certain religious circles, and public prejudice become unacceptable. Period.

Couple it with a comment made by Israeli Consul General Daniel Kutner just prior to the summit:

Israel serves as a lesson to others about respecting individual freedom and liberties in a land steeped in tradition.

And contrast this with Oren’s response to a female Israeli activist who was detained by Israeli police for wearing a prayer shawl at the Western Wall:

We in Israel have to strike a balance between our respect for pluralism and our respect for tradition.

Let’s ignore for now the marginalized statuses of the Palestinians, the Mizrachim, the Ethiopian Jews, the non-Jewish African refugees, and the exploited foreign workers. Even if one were to agree with Oren’s last statement, the fact that it contradicts the previous two statements demonstrates the need to question any government that dares praise itself for its commitment to the people it oversees, at the expense of the voices of those it oppresses.

We can be sure that the invitation that Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren made to the LGBT Summit attendees, as cited in Haaretz:

A protester interrupted Oren’s speech, but the ambassador went on and finally called the participants to come to Israel on June 8th, to take part in the next Gay Pride Parade.

is not one that Oren will repeat to the attendees of the upcoming CUFI Summit.

65 Responses

  1. OlegR
    May 7, 2012, 11:50 am

    /As should be clear, Oren’s willingness to brag about queer rights at an LGBT summit and then later pander for support from homophobes indicates that his commitment is neither to the queer struggle nor to the evangelical mission. His agenda is to garner support for the one remaining government that he declares loyalty to—from wherever support can be garnered using whatever means are necessary./

    Big f#$%$% surprise.
    He is a diplomat that’s his job.
    What, is it news that diplomats do that?

  2. seafoid
    May 7, 2012, 12:04 pm

    Israel needs the fundis. It can’t be picky. And it doesn’t give a sh&t about gay rights other than for marketing.

  3. DICKERSON3870
    May 7, 2012, 12:13 pm

    RE: “Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren gave the keynote address at the Equality Forum’s ‘International Equality Dinner’ in Philadelphia. The dinner was part of the Equality Forum’s annual Global LGBT Summit, which this year highlighted Israel as a ‘featured nation’.” ~ Phan Nguyen

    SEE: Israel’s Treatment of Gay Palestinian Asylum Seekers ~ by Caroline Esser, The Washington Note, 6/06/11

    (excerpts)…The newest way to sell Israel to Americans: LGBT rights. Search gay rights on the Anti-Defamation League’s website and what do you find? A ready-to-print and available for order poster that reads, “Which of the Middle East nations protects the legal rights, safety & freedom of the LGBT communities? Only Israel.”…
    . . . In their 2008 study, “Nowhere to Run: Gay Palestinian Asylum-Seekers in Israel,” Michael Kagan and Anat Ben-Dor describe in detail Israel’s unsympathetic and unbending policy towards gay Palestinians. . .
    …In pursuit of protection and the ability to openly express their sexuality, there have been at least ten cases in which gay Palestinians have sought refuge in Israel. However, despite their desperation, Israel refuses to even review gay Palestinian applications for asylum (those who have successfully received asylum have had to submit their cases directly to the UNHCR headquarters in Geneva). Moreover, gay Palestinians who have illegally entered Israel have been arrested and promptly deported–returned to the very environments in which their lives were at risk and in which they will now face further danger as they are questioned not only for their sexuality but for their choice to spend time in Israel…

    ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to thewashingtonnote.com

  4. DICKERSON3870
    May 7, 2012, 12:22 pm

    RE: “John Hagee has a record of making racist, sexist, anti-Catholic, Islamophobic and anti-Semitic remarks” ~ Phan Nguyen

    MY COMMENT: Nonetheless, the Houston Jewish Federation and the Jewish Agency apparently consider “Pastor” John Hagee (and his $3 million gift) to be ‘oh so kosher’ ! ! !

    SEE: Houston Jewish Federation, Jewish Agency Fund Im Tirzu’s Assault on Israeli Universities ~ by Richard Silverstein, Tikun Olam, 3/17/10

    (excerpts) What do the Houston Jewish federation, the Jewish Agency, John Hagee, and Im Tirzu have in common? They’re all either directly or indirectly funding a major assault on academic freedom on Israeli campuses…
    . . . The Israeli finance website, Calcalist, reports that John Hagee donated $120,000 to Im Tirzu in 2009 through the Jewish Agency. The money had been transferred to the Agency by the Houston Jewish Federation as part of an overall $5-million gift. $3-million of that came from [John Hagee's] CUFI and went towards its largely pro-settler Israel philanthropy. Hagee passed the gift through the Agency in order to qualify for a U.S. tax deduction. . .

    ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to richardsilverstein.com
    ALSO SEE: Pastor Hagee: The Antichrist Is Gay, “Partially Jewish, As Was Adolph Hitler”, by Max Blumenthal, Huffington Post, 6/02/08
    LINK – link to huffingtonpost.com

    • Blake
      May 7, 2012, 1:12 pm

      Thanks for that… proving ONCE AGAIN that the zionists, whatever their persuasion, are fringe lunatic disturbed nuts.

    • Henry Norr
      May 9, 2012, 7:23 pm

      Hey, Dickerson3870, thanks for these links and excerpts, and for all the others you’ve provided in previous comments. If you don’t mind, could you say a bit about how you organize all this stuff – what do you use for a database? Do you keep full texts, or just the link and excerpts? Do you do full-text searches or have a key-word system?

      Just curious, and admiring.

      • Shingo
        May 9, 2012, 8:42 pm

        Henry,

        The best database you cod ask for is Gmail. I email myself all articles and posts that come up that could be useful in the future.

        In the subject matter I include the title of the article and some extra key words.

        In the body I include a link and the entire piece. Once you’ve mailed it to yourself, it’s there in your mails ready to be pulled up. The search options make it a breeze to find the articles when you need them and the fact that it’s Gmail means it’s available when you’re away from your computer.

        I have a copy of just about every comment Hostage has posted here. It’s proved invaluable.

  5. kma
    May 7, 2012, 12:54 pm

    “2. George Bush gave Israel the green light to attack Palestinians.”

    does that make Israelis feel better about the bombs they fire? “it’s not my fault.” does it help the conscience after bulldozing American peace activists to death to know that Caterkiller is a US company? is this all it takes, or do some IDF have to take drugs to sleep with themselves at night?
    this “I had to because…” and “the devil made me do it” logic smells like guilt to me, or Oren would be claiming full credit for the evil deeds.

  6. Fredblogs
    May 7, 2012, 1:39 pm

    The Christian Fundamentalists plan to be on Israel’s side until the end of the world, that is, until the Rapture. If someone is on your side until the end of the world, it’s only polite to be nice to them. And if they turn out to be right, and the Rapture actually happens, then I for one will welcome our new Son of God.

    • Woody Tanaka
      May 7, 2012, 2:30 pm

      “If someone is on your side until the end of the world, it’s only polite to be nice to them.”

      So if a group of neo-Nazis pleadged fealty to, say, Brazil or Japan, you wouldn’t question those states being in league with Jew haters?

      • Fredblogs
        May 7, 2012, 4:06 pm

        Did Oren say anything against gays at any of the meetings with these fundamentalists before?

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 7, 2012, 5:55 pm

        “Did Oren say anything against gays at any of the meetings with these fundamentalists before?”

        So you would be totally okay with a high Japanese official wining and dining with Jew-hating neo-Nazis so long as the official didn’t saying himself against Jews?

      • Fredblogs
        May 7, 2012, 8:07 pm

        Bad analogy. The Neo-Nazis are an organization primarily organized around hate. Not an organization which has disapproval of a group as an official stance, but not an organizing principle. Its the difference between the Catholic Church and Nambla.

        Did Oren say anything against gays at any of the meetings with these fundamentalists before?

      • Shingo
        May 8, 2012, 2:31 am

        Bad analogy. The Neo-Nazis are an organization primarily organized around hate.

        Yeah, we noticed. As it turns out, it’s a very good analogy.

        link to mondoweiss.net

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 8, 2012, 7:43 am

        “Bad analogy. The Neo-Nazis are an organization primarily organized around hate. Not an organization which has disapproval of a group as an official stance, but not an organizing principle.”

        Sorry Fredo, if you were to ask the neo-Nazis, they — like the Hagee group — would state that their organizing principle is not hate. Rather than primitive religious superstitions, like Hagee, they would say it is about the advancement of the Aryan race, and that the hate is incidental, due to the non-Aryans refusal to accept the self-evident truth of the Aryan race’s superiority. Substitute “Christianity” for “Aryan race”, and things like “gay” or “Muslim” or “atheist” for “non-Aryans” in the last sentence, and you have a fairly precise and concise statement of Hagee’s organizing principle.

        So, again, would you be okay with the Japanese ambassador engaging in a grip and grin with a neo-Nazi group?

        “Did Oren say anything against gays at any of the meetings with these fundamentalists before?”

        Again, Oren’s statements are irrelevant. It is the appearance of the criminal with Hagee and the other haters that is the problem, given that the group is an anti-gay hate group.

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 10:30 pm

        The neo-Nazis could say that garbage, but they would be lying. So I don’t accept the premise of your question. Have you stopped beating your wife?

        Catholics think Jews are going to Hell, but I don’t mind if the Japanese ambassador meets with the Pope.

        Also, Hagee’s organization is a religious organization, not a hate group. You are probably thinking of the Westboro Baptists.

      • Shingo
        May 9, 2012, 2:13 am

        The neo-Nazis could say that garbage, but they would be lying.

        No they wouldn’t, they, like Zionists and other fascists, truly believe that they are aspiting to a higher calling.

        Also, Hagee’s organization is a religious organization, not a hate group.

        Do you agree that the anti Christ will be Jewish and that Hitler was an agen tof God?

      • Fredblogs
        May 9, 2012, 3:11 pm

        Nope. But then I also don’t believe in the Resurrection or divine influence on Mohammed. Doesn’t stop me from being friends with Christians and Muslims.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 14, 2012, 5:22 pm

        “The neo-Nazis could say that garbage, but they would be lying. So I don’t accept the premise of your question.”

        So, in other words, you would be in exactly the same position regarding the garbage that the neo-Nazis spout as any thinking person would be about the garbage that the gay-hater Hagee spouts. Thanks for making the point.

        “Catholics think Jews are going to Hell,”

        No, they don’t.

        “Also, Hagee’s organization is a religious organization, not a hate group. You are probably thinking of the Westboro Baptists.”

        “Religious organization” and “hate group” are not mutually inconsistent. One can be both, as Hagee’s organization is. The Westboro Baptists is another group that is a religious group and a hate group.

    • Blake
      May 7, 2012, 4:54 pm

      Actually fredblogs the bible twisting heretic “Christian Zionists” (oxymoron) believe once all the “jews” are living in “Israel” and have “rebuilt” their temple and re-established levitical practices of animal sacrifices they will worship the anti-Christ for 3 ½ yrs, then Jesus returns with an army of hundreds of thousand strong and kills them all…well all but 144,000 who convert to Christianity. Then we have a thousand years of peace. So you see your “friends” harbor exactly the same sort of sentiments as what you claim of HAMAS/Muslims.

      • Fredblogs
        May 7, 2012, 8:13 pm

        Well, no. I (and Jews in general) disagree with them about when the end of the world will be and how it will come about (and they know Jews don’t believe it). And since they are willing to wait for Jesus to show up before going out and killing everybody, I consider them to be harmless for the foreseeable future. I don’t think they are right, but if it turns out they are right, then who are we to disagree with God’s plans? I’m ok with waiting and seeing, and having them as allies until then. Of course, they may be disappointed before that since we don’t intend to rebuild the Temple until the Messiah comes. Which I don’t expect to happen any time soon.

      • Annie Robbins
        May 8, 2012, 12:31 am

        but doesn’t at least 1/2 of the fastest growing denomination of religious jews (chabad) already believe the messiah is here? and i thought god was supposed to build the temple, not people.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 8, 2012, 7:52 am

        “Of course, they may be disappointed before that since we don’t intend to rebuild the Temple until the Messiah comes.”

        The fact that you can even think about doing a “Bamiyan Buddha” operation on al-Haram ash-Sharif, demonstrates how twisted you are.

      • Mooser
        May 8, 2012, 1:37 pm

        “Which I don’t expect to happen any time soon.”

        Whereas the other, more tangible rewards of the association, which are, of course money, and the ineffable but wonderful feeling that you, as a Jew, are smarter than the dumb Goyim, and are in fact ‘getting over’ on them, are worth it.
        Are they dumb, confused, lied to? Sure but that’s not your problem, as long as they do something which you think you benefit from.
        As usual, thank you, Fredblogs, for giving us a succinct summation of the value Zionists put on truth and understanding in human relations.
        And of course, thank you for being able to speak for Jews. I forget who conferred that honor on you, but I’m sure it was somebody very important, who was fully qualified to delegate speaking for Jews to you.

        If only you weren’t such an awful combination of putz and “stupid git”, you might make a success of it.

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 1:52 pm

        @Woody Tanaka
        ROFL. If the Messiah shows up, then he calls the shots. Relax, though, as I said, I don’t think that is going to happen any time soon. If the Arabs didn’t want to risk the wrath of God coming down on their dome of the rock, they shouldn’t have built it over the ruins of the Temple. But hey, if it turns out they are right about religion, or if there is no God, then their Mosque will stay there for the foreseeable future.

        IIRC, the Bamiyan Buddhas weren’t deliberately and insultingly built on top of the ruins of another religion’s holy site.

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 1:56 pm

        @Mooser. And everything you said there equally applies to what they think about us. They think they are getting one over on us. They think we are the ones who are wrong, we think that they are, and both sides are well aware of it.

        P.S. I thought ad hominem attacks were banned on this site. I guess censorship is just for the pro-Israel people.

      • Elliot
        May 8, 2012, 2:10 pm

        I’ve heard one version or another of this wisecrack too many times to remember:
        Q. How can liberal Jews collaborate with fundamentalist Christians, who pretend to love us but are really plotting to see us killed as part of their Messianic plan?
        A. When the Messiah comes, we’ll ask him: is this your first time or your second?
        For most Jews the Messiah is just a figure of speech. But they are happy to pal around with those Christians who do take Him very seriously if this collaboration translates into Christian dollars and Christian political muscle for Israel.

        I find this pretense to be distasteful and disingenuous. It’s disrespectful towards people who have honest beliefs that we do not share. It’s also a dangerous game which more Jews than should shrug off with a wink and a nod.

      • Mooser
        May 8, 2012, 2:12 pm

        “P.S. I thought ad hominem attacks were banned on this site. I guess censorship is just for the pro-Israel people.”

        Yeah Fredblogs, maybe the moderator is “shitty”, like Phan’s “argument”.

        The fact is, Fredblogs, I send the Moderator’s Suite a basket from Fruit-of-the-Month without fail, and there’s usually a $100 bill inside.
        There Fredblogs, you happy now?
        Now if you want to dispute whether somebody who constantly squeals or berates this “moderator”, whose existence you seem to have established for yourself, is a putz or a “stupid git we can, but I’m pretty sure the facts are on my side. Google the expressions for yourself and see.

      • Mooser
        May 8, 2012, 2:30 pm

        “It’s also a dangerous game which more Jews than should shrug off with a wink and a nod.”

        Eliot, I’ve been railing about that, too; why are Zionist supporters always so eager to engage (especially if they, in their American fastness and safety, take none of the risks) Jews in games we have historically always lost?

      • Blake
        May 8, 2012, 2:38 pm

        fredblogs: All the while ignoring the most obvious point of the Torah that Jews were to remain in exile until the Messiah gathered you in from exile making “Israel” blasphemy.

      • hophmi
        May 8, 2012, 4:08 pm

        “I find this pretense to be distasteful and disingenuous. It’s disrespectful towards people who have honest beliefs that we do not share. It’s also a dangerous game which more Jews than should shrug off with a wink and a nod.”

        Can you agree, Elliot, that people who have different religious beliefs make political alliances all the time? That’s all that this is.

      • Elliot
        May 8, 2012, 4:57 pm

        This is not a case of Catholics and Jews doing common cause on behalf of worker justice. The “end of days” is a key theological issue for Jews and Christians, and a divisive one.
        I wonder how Christian Zionists explain away the atheism of their Jewish partners, but that is not my problem.

        Under the guise of Christian-Jewish healing, a different agenda is being advanced. Just one of the damaging aspects of this collaboration is that the cause of Palestinian Christians is being sacrificed in order to achieve American Christian-Jewish unity around the unholy dyad of anti-Semitism/Zionism.

        See the concerted Jewish-Christian attack on Kairos and Palestinian Christian unity.

      • hophmi
        May 8, 2012, 5:10 pm

        “The “end of days” is a key theological issue for Jews and Christians, and a divisive one.”

        Yes, of course it is. So is the widespread theology in Islam that everyone ought to be converted and gays and women are less equal. But it doesn’t stop leftist atheists from finding common cause with Muslims over Palestine, does it?

        “Just one of the damaging aspects of this collaboration is that the cause of Palestinian Christians is being sacrificed in order to achieve American Christian-Jewish unity around the unholy dyad of anti-Semitism/Zionism.”

        If there was no alliance between Israel and the Christian fundamentalists, do you think the Palestinian Christians would fare differently?

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 8:11 pm

        @Blale
        That’s what the neturei karta religious zealots think. You know, I’ve never actually heard their biblical citation for that. Since you are citing it, you must know it. What is it?

      • Cliff
        May 8, 2012, 10:12 pm

        So hoppy is saying that it’s antisemitic to point out that Zionist Jews ally themselves with antisemites, racists and bigots.

        Thanks for clearing that up.

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 10:34 pm

        @Annie Robbins
        Well, there are certain signs that show that we aren’t living in the time of the Messiah. Notably wars.

      • Shingo
        May 9, 2012, 1:28 am

        If there was no alliance between Israel and the Christian fundamentalists, do you think the Palestinian Christians would fare differently?

        Of course. The reason the Israelis are embracing the hristian fundamentalists is becasue they are runnning out of friends and supporters. D you think this alliance is one Israel enjoys having to nurture?

      • Blake
        May 9, 2012, 8:40 pm

        Not just the NK fredblogs anyone that is not a Bible twisting heretic believes it. Its there in b&w.
        Isaiah Chap 11begins with a description of the messiah, and then says (v. 12), “And He (Hashem) will lift up a banner to the nations, and He will gather in the scattered of Israel, and the diaspora of Yehudah He will gather from the four corners of the earth.” See also Rambam Melachim 11:1, “The king the messiah will eventually arise and restore the kingship of the house of David to its former status, build the Temple and gather in the exiles of Israel”

        Of course there are tons of other verses but why Bible bash. Get a reality check fredblogs.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 14, 2012, 5:35 pm

        “If the Arabs didn’t want to risk the wrath of God coming down on their dome of the rock, they shouldn’t have built it over the ruins of the Temple.”

        And if the Jews gave a damn about their Temple site, they would have just continued the “peace process” with the occupation authorites from Rome.

        “IIRC, the Bamiyan Buddhas weren’t deliberately and insultingly built on top of the ruins of another religion’s holy site.”

        They weren’t built on top of a ruin, it was an empty lot. The ruins were long before carted away to be used for building materials. Nor was it a deliberate insult; it was the site from which the Muslims believed the Night Journey occurred.

        But who cares why they were built? The structures are magnificant relics, archiological treasures. Only a barbarian like your could even attempt to justify that destruction. Would you destroy the Catholic portions of the Cathedral/Mosque of Cordoba, too??

    • Sherri Munnerlyn
      May 7, 2012, 5:12 pm

      Fredblogs,

      Christianity 101, you have to be a Believer before He returns to be raptured, if you are a Christian who believes in the Rapture. And not all Christians believe in the Rapture, the idea did not even exist in Christianity until the 1800′s, and I think it was the late 1800′s. So, we have 1800 years of Christianity where noone believed in a Rapture.

      And these Christian Fundamentalists so on the side of Israel are not a clearly defined group, either. My Church does not teach Eschaetology, nor loyalty to the modern day state of Israel, but I know of members of my church who travel every year to Texas to listen to John Hagee preach. I personally see John Hagee as a false prophet, he has developed his own personal ideas of Eschaetology/End Times that go far beyond mainstream thinking. And I think it is dangerous for anyone to be too tied to preconceived ideas about End Times and the different theories of what will come, I think one easily may step into Idolatry by such thinking and live one’s life guided by making those ideas come about versus living one’s life guided by Christ and living out His teachings in one’s life.

      • john h
        May 9, 2012, 12:26 am

        Agreed. Interesting you use the term “idolatry” for preconceived ideas about “end times” (not a biblical phrase, by the way). I have used it a number of times for both Zionist and CZ in their obeisance to Zionist Israel. As someone said on this thread, CZ is an oxymoron.

    • Shingo
      May 7, 2012, 9:17 pm

      If someone is on your side until the end of the world, it’s only polite to be nice to them.

      Even if the end of the world means they hope you burn in hell?

      • Mooser
        May 8, 2012, 1:42 pm

        “Even if the end of the world means they hope you burn in hell?

        People that give you money, and a feeling of intellectual superiority, and whose doctrines are reliable Ziocaine producers? What’s not to like?

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 2:01 pm

        They may believe that Jews will burn in Hell, but I don’t think most of them hope that. I think most of them just hope we come to Jesus.

      • Mooser
        May 8, 2012, 2:19 pm

        “I think most of them just hope we come to Jesus.”

        You know that’s not true, and can be disproved by one very easily observable fact. If the Hagee-ites and their assorted ilk had even the faintest pretensions of converting Jews to Christianity, they would have switched to full-on COGIC or AME style Gospel music long ago.

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 3:26 pm

        If that’s a joke, it fell flat. If it’s not a joke, then I have no idea what your rationale is.

    • richb
      May 8, 2012, 10:13 am

      Evangelicals with you until the end of the World? Don’t bet on it. For older fundamentalists the gay issue trumps everything. Note how quickly a gay neo-con was dumped from the Romney campaign due to pressure from the Religious Right.

      link to youtube.com

      Younger evangelicals are even more problematic for you. They are for gay rights but the reason is important. They are pro peace, pro justice, and pro human rights. That in turn makes them also anti-Zionist. Here’s an example:

      link to vimeo.com

      Here’s some videos by evangelical students who went to the Christ at the Checkpoint conference. For non-evangelicals note that Wheaton is the most prestigious evangelical liberal arts college in the U.S. and thus where future evangelical leaders will be coming from.

      link to vimeo.com

      link to vimeo.com

  7. hophmi
    May 7, 2012, 4:04 pm

    Right, because as we all know, when politicians promote a political position, each and every audience or organization they address must share that political position. That’s why President Obama never addresses any organization that isn’t for gay rights, affirmative action, environmental protection, or health care reform. I guess Obama is pinkwashing. whitewashing, greenwashing, redwashing, and bluewashing.

    Guess what, Phan. Politicians craft different messages for different audiences. It’s called R-E-A-L-I-T-Y. We live in a country where, gasp, someone can be opposed to gay rights and still, gasp, have redeeming quality as a human being. The same people can, gasp, support Israel, even though, gasp, Israel is gay-friendly, double-gasp.

    • Phan Nguyen
      May 7, 2012, 5:27 pm

      Dude, drink some water.

    • Cliff
      May 7, 2012, 6:01 pm

      What hoppy is saying is that it’s antisemitic to imply that Zionist politicians can’t be blatantly loony hypocritical racists and bigots who associate with blatantly hypocritical racists and bigots.

      Stop singling out Israel! Wahhhhh Wahhh!

      • hophmi
        May 7, 2012, 6:29 pm

        No, I’m saying Phan’s argument is childish, idiotic, and selective. That’s all. Phan’s argument is that Michael Oren is a bad guy for being a politician. It’s silly and stupid more than anything else.

        I don’t recall using the word antisemitic, but again, leave it to the crazies to see implications when none are there. I just think Phan’s argument is shitty.

      • Shingo
        May 7, 2012, 9:18 pm

        That’s all. Phan’s argument is that Michael Oren is a bad guy for being a politician.

        No, he’s a bad guy for being a pathological liar and a sevrant of an evil regime.

      • Shingo
        May 7, 2012, 9:28 pm

        I just think Phan’s argument is shitty.

        Phan’s argument makes you shitty Hop, because deep down, you find Hagee as revolting and putrid as the rest of us. Phan is simply rubbing your nose in the fact that Israel is so desperate for friends that it is now turning to the worst kind of antisemites (be it the Christian fundies, Saudi Arabia or neo nazis) for succor and company.

      • bangpound
        May 7, 2012, 10:26 pm

        He’s not a politician. He’s a diplomat and a military officer.

      • Woody Tanaka
        May 7, 2012, 11:43 pm

        “I don’t recall using the word antisemitic, but again, leave it to the crazies to see implications when none are there.”

        LMAO. Yeah, because you have NO history of slandering people with false claims of antisemitism…

      • Mooser
        May 8, 2012, 1:54 pm

        “I just think Phan’s argument is shitty.”

        Yeah Hophmi, the recipe for this article is a little too gritty, so you decided to ad hominem?

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 2:03 pm

        @Woody Tanaka
        If you mean around here. I don’t think he has done that.

      • Fredblogs
        May 8, 2012, 2:06 pm

        @Mooser

        That’s not an ad hominem. Ad hominem is insulting the person, not the argument. It’s what you do, frequently.

      • Mooser
        May 8, 2012, 2:26 pm

        Right you are, Hophmi. Nothing gives me such precise parameters for an argument’s logical failures then the adverb “shitty”! Reminds me of a conversation purported to have taken place between St. Thomas Aquinas and Erasmus, when the met in a small village in Germany and reported in a letter to the National Lampoon.

      • Blake
        May 10, 2012, 1:25 am

        You cry about ad hominen whilst ignoring actual crimes against humanity. You need a lesson in morals and ethics.

  8. Sherri Munnerlyn
    May 7, 2012, 5:40 pm

    I notice the you tube videos of John Hagee speaking about the half Jewish and gay Anti Christ are no longer available to be viewed. when you try to play you get a message, removed because of a copyright claim.

    Here is a link to another article about John Hagee.

    Resource Page on John Hagee and Christian Zionism

    link to talk2action.org

  9. piotr
    May 7, 2012, 11:26 pm

    I agree that Oren is a diplomat who performs his job with aplomb and elan. But as he zooms from one audience which is invited to Tel Aviv Gay Parade to another which “shares his commitment to Torah”, he relies on both audiences being quite stupid.

    OTOH, I see nothing anti-Semitic in belief that Jews will go to the Lake of Fire. It is nothing personal or racist, but even very nice people who refuse to recognize J.C. as Lord and Savior will go to the LoF barring some unexpected mercy of the Lord. Some of my best friends are already at Lof!

    • Mooser
      May 8, 2012, 1:49 pm

      “I see nothing anti-Semitic in belief that Jews will go to the Lake of Fire.”

      We went, one summer! We couldn’t afford it, of course (You try to cross that lake in a Ford, and you’ll know viaduct!) but some nice relatives let us use their cabin.
      And besides, the locals got such a kick out of it when we asked directions. Except for one older woman who glared and declaimed “For you, every road except Salvation leads there, you can’t miss it.

    • RoHa
      May 8, 2012, 7:57 pm

      “I see nothing anti-Semitic in belief that Jews will go to the Lake of Fire. ”

      I’m not clear on the details of this bit of eschatology, but if only Jews are sent to the the LoF, it seems obvious that it is anti-Semitic.

      On the other hand, if (as I think you suggest) all unbelievers and sinners are sent to the LoF, that too is anti-Semitic, since it treats Jews just like everyone else and so denies their Jewish identity. They need a special kosher Lake of Fire.

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