I turned 50 this past November. Nine days after my birthday, my grandmother died at 94. It's almost as if she was waiting for her oldest grandchild to hit the half-century mark before she left us.
In the obituaries, my grandmother's maiden name is given as Helmar. It was actually Hellmann. Her father Jacob Hellmann, my great-grandfather, got tired of his kids getting beaten up and cursed for being Jews in 1920's South Boston (Feeneyism didn't spring from a vacuum), so he changed the family's name to Helmar - it sounded more German than Jewish and he had an accent - moved them to Arlington, Mass. and sent them off to the Catholics in hopes of blending in.
No one was fooled, but the suburbanites of Arlington were a little more genteel than the urbanites in Southie so few people squawked about the Jews next door. Thus my grandfather Joe, the archetypal Boston Catholic Irishman in so many ways, fell in love with and married a Jewish girl named Rose in 1930's Boston. When my grandfather married Nana, he was marrying a girl who he and everyone knew was Jewish even though no one talked about it. From my earliest memory, I always knew my grandmother was Jewish-- but it only came up once. My grandfather's best friend, Jim Flynn, who spoke with a brogue his whole life though he never saw Ireland until well into his adulthood, married Rose's sister Margie.
It's daily life now but it was a big deal back then. The Boston Catholic-Jewish thing, whatever that thing is, is now part of the American fabric and my family is a small thread in it.
My grandmother's conditioning from her early childhood was to never let on that she was Jewish. It was a survival mechanism reinforced over and over again by her family and her environment in the first years of her life. It was an open secret in the family that Nana was Jewish but it was never directly addressed to her by any of the family except for me (always the troublemaker) a few years ago, the last time she cooked dinner for me in her own house when I was visiting them in Massachusetts.
She and I were sitting at the dining room table in the afternoon, talking about family, history, Boston, and all the other subjects I loved to talk to my grandmother about. She was wise but not an intellect as my grandfather was. She also told great stories. I can't recall how I came to ask the question, but it happened nonetheless: "Nana, your parents were Jewish, weren't they?"
She froze for a split-second and then answered, blankly and with no emotion (sure sign of the conditioned, automatic response), "They were German."
I pushed, "But they were German Jews, weren't they, Nana?"
She got a little mad for a second and said, "They were German."
I relented. I'm the only member of my family that wasn't scared of her, but even I knew my limits.
Later in the evening after dinner, my grandfather, grandmother and I were in their living room, talking like we did since I was a youngun. I was their first grandchild and even though I didn't turn out quite as they'd hoped, they still enjoyed my company.
The topic came around to politics and the war and my grandfather opined about the Muslim threat. I said, "Grandpa, I'm a little more worried about the crazy Christians and Jews in our own ranks than I am about crazy Muslims overseas."
Nana, without missing a beat, said, "The Jews watch out for their own!"
Laughing, I said, "Thank you for answering my earlier question, Nana."
Thankfully, she had a great sense of humor so this event never became an issue. I also suspect that her own conditioning kept her from even thinking about it afterwards. The topic never came up with her again and it was the only time the topic ever came up.
My great-grandfather, Jake, was a Jew to the bone even with the crucifix in the hallway. He resembled Lee Strasberg, to get a picture of him. He died when I was about 11 but I vividly remember him, his accent and his desire to be kind to the kids in the family. When I was about 9, he gave me a little plastic box with a white stone in it. He'd picked the stone up off the ground at the shore of the Dead Sea when he visited Israel in the 1960's. He also gave me a rosary. I no longer have either of those things but I do have the memory of him giving them to me and solemnly telling of the origins of each object. I was just a kid but I knew he was trying to tell me something even if neither of us was sure what he was trying to say.
Over the years, Jake has become an embodiment of sorts in my mind. He was Jew and Christian but neither Jew nor Christian, if you know what I mean. He took the best of both and left the rest on the side of the road. A worthy model.
this is bitter sweet, an american story.
Thank you for getting it, Annie.
and thank you jamie, for such a moving contribution to mondoweiss.
I wonder: Why was it better to be ethnic German than to be Jewish in America?
After all, the US fought Germany in two WWs not the Jews or a Jewish state?
What is the rationale that a German was more accepted in the US than a Jew?
Of course, US-Germans outnumbered Jews. But is that the answer?
> Why was it better to be ethnic German than to be Jewish in America?
Over 5,000,000 Germans immigrated to the US in the 19th-20th centuries, the largest group of immigrants by far. As yourstruly below points out, passing was easier in those circumstances.
- Germans stopped being German whereas Jews didn’t stop being Jewish – isn’t that the answer?
The irony of your story is that your grandmother wanted to pass as of German descent but – for some mysterious Jewish reason – couldn’t stop being Jewish. As you write, it had a comical edge, you were laughing.
I suspect that it depended on where and when you lived in the US. My paternal grandfather’s family came from Alsace-Loraine, which was alternately German and French, repeatedly. He made a point of always insisting that they were French, even going so far as to give all his children obviously French names, although the surnames in his lineage clearly showed some German ancestry. My father said he did this because of anti-German feeling in the US in the early 20th century.
I once met a lawyer who had two quite interesting stories about growing up in LA during WWII. He was Jewish and grew up in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood. Two of the exceptions to that predominance were, respectively, a child of Japanese heritage and a recent immigrant child from Germany, who was not Jewish.
The young Japanese heritage child was forced into internment at Manzanar with his family at age 5. The lawyer I met said that the experience of his young friend having to leave his neighborhood so abruptly to be imprisoned for nothing so deeply affected the lawyer that he spent much of his adult life trying to help the internees receive an official apology and compensation from the US.
His story about the young German child was also fascinating. He and a few of his friends were chasing the boy one day when the boy’s father came out and asked them why they were chasing his son. They said that the boy had called them “dirty Jews”. The father immediately slapped his son’s face and said in exasperation to his son, “This is why we left Germany.” The lawyer said he felt a tinge of guilt at that point, because what had gone unmentioned was that he and his friends had taunted the boy for his German heritage, calling him names, before he had called them all “dirty Jews” in response. Later on, he said, they all became good friends, helped by the fact that the German boy’s family was the first on the block to have a television.
So, your father’s first name is French. How about yours?
- Anyway, nice story of a German boy being the ‘odd man out’ among the Jewish boys in an LA neighborhood during WWII.
German-Americans seldom talk about bad experiences due to their ethnic background. For starters, they’ve been more assimilated than Jews generally. Secondly, anything they might be tempted to say is immediately put in the context of that dozen years in the history of Germany known as The Third Reich. Thirdly, the US fought two World Wars against Germany. However,
some German-Americans are proud of their heritage in the larger context of positive German contributions to the world over the centuries, which are many on every level of culture, government, humanities, science, etc. In Cleveland, Ohio there is a newspaper serving Ohio’s German-Americans since 1989, Germania. Over the years I’ve read it, starting in 2004 or so, many articles have appeared giving the inside story on Germans in America since its founding. Among them are many personal posts poignantly covering, in a very simple, factual manner and tenor, their life, experiences in America surrounding and during both wars against Germany. None of this is taught in American public school textbooks; seldom is it even alluded to in a general sentence or two.
here in america passing is an affliction that’s not exclusive to jews. re: passing among african-americans, richard wright wrote about this in “native son”.
Jamie, you talk as if being Jewish were a genetic condition. Doesn’t Nana get to decide for herself?
No – Jamie Dyer asked Nana about her Jewish parents, not about her own Jewish identity. – But in a way, she implies Nana should acknowledge she is Jewish also, by genetic descent. But that’s a little stretch.
But why the headline: “I always knew Nana was Jewish”
That points to an exclusively genetic definition of Nana’s Jewishness, irrespective of her having had any Jewish upbringing or education and her own sense of identity. – “I always knew …” That headline is irritating.
It’s more than just the headline, Klaus. “From my earliest memory, I always knew my grandmother was Jewish — but it only came up once. … My grandmother’s conditioning from her early childhood was to never let on that she was Jewish. It was a survival mechanism reinforced over and over again by her family and her environment in the first years of her life.”
I’d like to know how Jamie knew this was a “survival mechanism” and not just a lack of interest in the ideas of Jewishness. Considering that Nana never mentioned the subject to him, I’m wondering if Jamie might have inadvertently imposed his own narrative.
(BTW Jamie please don’t think I’m attacking you. I think your piece raises all kinds of interesting ideas about identity and historical narratives, and I’m very grateful. I’m just offering another interpretation. There’s almost always more than one.)
What is irritating to me is that Jamie wanted Nana to show what he thinks – and has always thought – is her true color: Jewish.
But Nana probably thought of herself and her family as primarily German, since there was no Jewish upbringing and education. That’s what German Jews were like. Here is a little statistic on the matter:
- In Berlin in 1932 just 20% of Jewish children went to Jewish schools.
80% went to German schools. Obviously their parents didn’t want their children to have a special education in Judaism. Nana’s family probably thought the same way as German Jews.
Also, that Jamie Dyer responded to my question:
” Why was it better to be ethnic German than to be Jewish in America?”
by saying: “Over 5,000,000 Germans immigrated to the US in the 19th-20th centuries, the largest group of immigrants by far.” – is completely beside my point. –
I’ve read many books making a point of the assimilation of German Jews prior to the Third Reich; not so much about the greater assimilation of Italian Jews during that period: link to acjna.org
Interesting statistic on Berlin’s Jewish school children, especially when considering Jews comprised 4% of Berliners whereas overall, Jews were a bit less than 1% of Germans: link to zupdom.com
the greater assimilation of Italian Jews during that period
My father-in-law was forced into hiding during the German occupation of Rome, but the wound that never healed was his expulsion from school – at the hands of his own government – and being told that he was not an Italian. It is that sense of betrayal and estrangement that led him to become a Zionist and eventually to settle in Israel. The bitter irony is that he was more of a foreigner and an outsider in Israel than he ever was in Italy. When he turned his hand to poetry (after 40 years in Israel), the words flowed in the Roman dialect of the poets Belli, Trilussa and Pascarella.
In Berlin in 1932 just 20% of Jewish children went to Jewish schools.
80% went to German schools. Obviously their parents didn’t want their children to have a special education in Judaism. Nana’s family probably thought the same way as German Jews.
I wonder how many of those 80% received their Jewish education in synagogues (where most affiliated Jews in America today receive their religious education)?
I knew a German-Jewish man, from an assimilated German-Jewish family, born in about 1913. He attended a non-parochial German school in Berlin and received his Jewish religious training from a private tutor hired by his father. He continued to identify as Jewish in the U.S.
If the 20% refers to those attending all-Jewish parochial schools, I doubt the statistic was any higher (and it was probably considerably lower) for Jews in the United States during the same period.
What is now referred to as the “day school” movement is a relatively recent phenomenon. Until at least the 1950s (a little earlier for primary education; a little earlier for boys than for girls), even most Orthodox Jews in the US attended public schools. Jewish education was, for the most part, acquired at the synagogue and at home, from parents or private tutors.
so the trend that beinart would encourage in Liberal Zionism Crisis is actually one that’s peaked and will fade?
In that url article I hotlinked, Shmuel, it said that Rome was the only area in Italy that had a sizable unassimilated Jewish population–more or less I guess meaning a real Jewish ghetto. The article points to a Jewish Italian high military officer who, when the Nuremberg copycat laws kicked in, in Italy, dressed in full regalia, summoned his troops, pulled out his pistol, and shot himself in from of them all. Your father-in-law must have felt so; and yes, where do you go if you don’t shoot somebody after such a direct injustice, followed yet by another direct injustice, than-to poetry? Thanks for sharing, Shmuel; it’s very much appreciated.
so the trend that beinart would encourage in Liberal Zionism Crisis is actually one that’s peaked and will fade?
I don’t know whether it’s peaked or not. It may still be growing for all I know (Beinart’s concerns notwithstanding). My point was that it wasn’t always so. Public school attendance used to be the norm for North American Jews of all backgrounds. My parents’ generation saw the development of Jewish elementary schools, the generation between theirs and mine Jewish high schools, and my generation almost universal attendance of Jewish schools among the Orthodox and traditional, as well as a growing variety of Jewish educational options.
There are all sorts of reasons behind these trends – social, economic, religious, political, etc. I wouldn’t take statistics regarding Jewish school attendance in the 1930s – whether from Germany or the US – as an indicator, in and of itself, of assimilation.
- “being told [by his own government] that he was not an Italian”-
This was so in Germany and at the time there was often gloating by the Zionist “real” Jews that the government forced the assimilated Jews to show what they considered their true Jewish color.”Hitler had to come to make the Jews aware that they are a people” Zionists said after 1933.
The idea of Jews living in DIASPORA within Israel is an important one. “Belonging” is not so easy. If, for instance, you have a bitter feeling against racism, living as a Jew in Israel would be terribly hard as it appears to require acquiescence (or “identification”) if not actual practice of racism.
> I’d like to know how Jamie knew this was a “survival mechanism”
At the risk of appearing glib, my honest answer is that I had a heart connection with my grandmother. One just “knows” when the heart is connected. This entire issue was a trauma for her in her younger years, one she dealt with by shunting it to the back of her mind.
Thanks for the kind words, btw.
‘I pushed, “But they were German Jews, weren’t they, Nana?”
She got a little mad for a second and said, “They were German.”‘
Damn right she should get mad at your pushiness!
Were you praying regularly with her parents so you’d know her religion?
If they were Germans well that’s what they were. And no, if they were Germans they were not Yiddish-speakers, either. What on Earth is different about Germans who happen to be Jewish or Protestant or Catholic?
I know this question is merely a result of the moronic new generation of specifically American religion-obnubilated culture and ways of speaking. If you think a moment, though, it also is the kind of question which may express agreement both with the Nazi and the Zionist racial supremacist mythologies.
If they were Germans well that’s what they were.
My sense from reading is that German-Jews were not German the way U.S. Jews are American today. They were largely a distinct class, assimilated culturally but separate as families, observing endogamy. This separateness was shaped, in part, by social anti-Semitism. This was true even in the most successful and privileged strata of German-Jewish society. Take for example the influential Lachmann family, publishers of the liberal newspaper, Berliner Tageblatt.
Elliot,
I have a different reading based on the oral histories of German Jews that were in various US diplomatic positions after WWII. ..particularly Abm Guthner Dean. The way he describes it you had difference groups of Jews in Germany after WWI…..the Jews who had been in Germany several generations and were thoroughly German and whose Jewish identity was strictly religious ..and then Jews( a lot from Russia) who were political ‘agitators”.. communist socialist, ect. and had very Jewish identities, didn ‘t identify as German but more as some political movement to change Germany.
You can read Abm Deans papers at the Carter library..very interesting, esp about the zionist movement among those Jews in Germany that the older established Jewish population was very much against.
tell me more about those papers. are they online. and is that his name? Amb. do you mean?
American, there’s lots of literature and history out that discusses or describes the cleavage between the old-line established German Jews and the newbies from the East, particularly Poland, who dressed orthodox and were usually poor and with street manners not appreciated by Germans during the subject time period. Of course the gentile Germans noticed the new arrivals. I’m reminded of Hitler’s memory description of his own reaction to the latter type of Jews from the East in Mein Kampf when he first came upon them in the streets of Vienna at age 19. That description was not an aberration.
You mean the same Dean who spoke his mind about Israeli involvement in Pakistan, which ultimately cost him his career in the US Diplomatic Corps?
Here’s a lot of information on German Jews during the Weimar Era, and particularly, re my last comment–on the Ostjuden: link to www1.yadvashem.org
Here you go Phil. There was another US German Jewish diplo with similar experiences and views of Germany, zionism, etc. as Dean but I can’t remember his name and lost him in my hard drive melt down…I’ll see if I can find him when I have time.
Oral History papers:
link to jimmycarterlibrary.gov
His German background:..excerpt
link to jimmycarterlibrary.gov
“We are German citizens of Jewish faith. We are
not Zionists. We will help you, but we are part of an assimilated
society.” I mention this here, because this approach to religion had
a great impact on my own attitude toward Zionism ”
“The idea of belonging to a nation, being part of a community, and your
religion being between yourself and your maker, was absolutely cardinal
in my upbringing .”
BTW…in this he is referring to the zionist leadership effort to enlist established German Jews in setting up Palestine.
More on Amb to Lebanon period:
link to thenation.com
His book:
link to amazon.com
Well I am not an expert , but in what I have read I have the same impression. Poland’s Jews for whatever reason, maybe because they were not as equal economically as the upper class or even middle class Jews of Germany, appear to have been much more receptive to zionism and Jewish “nationalism” than Germans. Say what we will about Germany, for generations till Hitler, German politics and society enabled the advancement and intergration of Jews very well.
>> All the representatives of the Jewish community in Germany said the same thing: “We are German citizens of Jewish faith. … we are part of an assimilated society.”
Why did they hate Israel so much? Were they:
a) Mis-informed?
b) Self-loathing?
c) Anti-Semitic?
d) All of the above?
>> Mis-informed?
About their citizenship, that is. (Perhaps they had been indoctrinated to believe that they were actually citizens of Germany, rather than citizens of some Glorious Jewish State.)
American –
We disagree on how to read this text. For German Jews, there was a sense of separateness that was greater than just a religious divide. Ambassador Dean himself had two Jewish parents. In the testimony that you linked to, he distinguishes between his own family life in pre-war Germany, and the intermarriage that is common in American Jewish life in the 21st century (p. 6).
As Dean testifies, after moving to the States, he – the “non-religious” German Jew – was the only child in his Reform Jewish temple in Cleveland who could read Hebrew. His dad was a leader of the Jewish community. And so on.
Endogamy, Hebrew language instruction, leadership in Jewish organizations, not to mention atheism and professed non-religiosity all add up to something other than a “strictly religious” identity.
Of course, as you note, this Jewish separateness did not necessarily translate into Zionism. And social class is a key marker. The German Jew I referenced earlier (who received Jewish instruction privately) told me that his father fired said tutor after he started mixing in Zionism with Hebrew instruction. Nevertheless, being affluent, father and son traveled to Palestine for vacation on a pilgrimage of sorts. The son grew up to become a leader in the American Jewish community.
As you note, the Zionists triggered pushback amongst German Jews, and many professed their German identity. But that’s not the same as saying that their religion was a private matter.
Elliot, I am missing whatever point you are trying to make.
What..exactly…is it?
American –
I’m not sure I can spell it out for you any clearer than I already have, but, since you asked, I’ll try:
1. German Jews were not Germans who practised the Jewish religion, rather a distinct group within German society. A pre-war “German Jew” was not the same as an”American Christian” or even “American Jew” today.
2. That distinction does not equate German Jews with Zionism.
Elliot,
I think it’s possible that German Jews were more German then than American/Other Jews are American/Other today in terms of identifying nationally with their countries. You can add ‘some or majority or minority of’ to that cause who can say or do the numbers.
And I think that is because Israel was not established as Jewish state then.
Now that Israel exist Jews are encouraged to and many do, identify with it as their true ‘country’..dual or whatever….their ‘national identity’ is more ‘split’ or confused/conflicted then it would have been had there been no Jewish nation.
American –
I don’t see American Jewish Zionists as not identifying strongly with the U.S. They do identify strongly with Israel AND with the U.S. They do not see any tension between the two and are not confused by the duality. You can love mommy and daddy equally.
From the other side, would you not agree that Christian America accepts American Jews as equally American to a degree that substantially exceeds the perceptions of German-Jews by German-Christians in pre-war Germany?
Elliot, would you include an American such as Sheldon Adelson among those American Zionist Jewish Zionists who see no tension between the US and Israel? I assume you include American and Zionist values, interests as perceived as identical, sort of like Bibi told us all when he came here last time: We are you, you are us? Would said folks think and feel no tension or conflict in values if POTUS publicly informed the American people he was cutting off aid to Israel on X date unless they stopped the settlement expansion, or unless they retracted them by X date? And the American people were told the reason for this action was that his decision was in the best interests of America, the Palestinians, and Israel, and the World?
“Elliot says:
May 8, 2012 at 4:20 pm
+ Show content
American –
They do not see any tension between the two and are not confused by the duality. You can love mommy and daddy equally.”
Elliot…..I see people using that ‘equal love’ for mommy and daddy all the time. …..it’s very naive….not real world at all.
You remind me of a Israeli guy who moved to the US I use to debate with…I ask him once what he would do if the US and Israel interest ever conflicted and he said ‘that would never happen’..well it has happened, over Iran.
Can’t say if America accepts American Jews more than Germany did since I wasn’t around then and we have only people like Dean and then his opposites to tell us. A lot of what I have read talks about Germany prior to Hitler as a high period in Jewish advancement and aceptance.
But it makes sense to me that the existence of a Jewish nation created the dual ‘national’ loyalty notion among Jews, and believing there are or never will be any conflicts in that is self deluding or at best, as I said, very naive.
We spend a lot of time here looking at what the zionist do and manipulate for Israel from in their respective diaspora countries, particularly in the US, and I don’t think it’s even debatable that a lot of it is in conflict with the interest of their country of residence and their fellow non Jewish citizens.
No doubt even some normal (non uber zionist) Jews benignly believe the US and Israel “are one” ..but mainly because they ‘want to’ believe it… ..they put real world politic aside in order to believe it.
@ Citizen, If POTUS, or anybody else, tried to say something like that, there would be hell to pay. Until then, nothing changes the sense of perfect compatability most American Jews feel between their Americaness and Zionism.
@ American – you can call that sensibility naive, or whatever you choose to call is, but it’s real. I don’t see this POTUS or the next one challenging that.
The fact that you can conceive of a future breaking point between the American and Zionist sensibilities is irrelevant. The two beliefs are ideologically consonant for most Jews and many Christians and remain unchallenged in the political class. That’s our reality.
Sure, mommy and daddy can get divorced. Until they do, American Jews love them both, equally, with no internal contradiction.
Elliot: “Until that time Eustice, until that time.” (Soldier In The Rain)
Elliot, yes, true; I think, if my reading memory serves, they were “A Jew at home, and a German in the street.”
Citizen – Yes. I think that saying originated in the late 18th century with the first modern Jew. Moses Mendelssohn, was very Jewish, but outwardly assimilated.
Interesting that you should mention the Tageblatt. I assume Werner Eugen Mosse (the author of The German-Jewish Economic Elite 1820-1935 : A Socio-Cultural Profile, which is precisely on the subject of the extent of assimilation of the German Jews) is a member of the Mosse-Lachmann family.
Review of the book here.
UPDATE: I take it from this obituary of Werner Eugen Mosse that he was the son of the last owner of the Tageblatt before it was Nazified (and thus the brother of historian George Mosse).
Yes. George Mosse writes in his autobiography that his father was not religious but supported the Jewish community as a philanthopist. The money apparently came from his wife, the Lachmann side of the family. George Mosse tells the story of how his father donated a record player to the synagogue to play music on Yom Kippur (I think it was a recording of the Max Bruch piano and cello sonata). His father operated the record player, incognito, from behind a curtain. The congregation experienced the music coming from nowhere. Four-year-old George got into trouble when, one Yom Kippur, he ran up to the curtain and pulled it back, revealing his dad loading the records. This might have been the year before the Wizard of Oz came out.
I happen to have a DVD of the Nazi Party rally in the Berlin Sportpalast on Feb. 10, 1933 that kicked off the party’s electoral campaign before the March election. Goebbels speaks before Hitler, and in his speech he makes a lot of snide, threatening comments about the Tageblatt.
- German Jews “assimilated culturally but separate as families, observing endogamy”. -
________________
There was the saying: ” You are a Jew at home and a German in the street.” – This supports your argument.
But the marriage statistics give a different picture. In the late 1920s of 100 men/women from Jewish families 40 married Germans. (These are newly married couples, not the average of all couples with one partner being Jewish, this percentage must have been of course lower.).
Nathan Glaser and Daniel Moynihan write in ‘Beyond the melting pot’:
“The 1957 sample census showed that 3.5 per cent of married Jews were married to non-Jews. … This pattern sharply distinguishes the Jews of the United States from those of other countries in which Jews have achieved wealth and social position such as Holland, Germany, Austria and Hungary in the twenties. There the intermarriage rates were phenominally high.”
As I said above, this 3.5% can’t be directly compared to the 40%, but still.
Would you post a source?
Intermarriage, Germany
My source is Avraham Barkai of Yad Vashem Institute, Tel Aviv and Leo Baeck Institute, Jerusalem. He wrote a chapter on demographic trends among Jews in Germany. The book is in German: Deutsch-jüdische Geschichte der Neuzeit, 1918 – 1945. On page 39, he says this:
Jews who married Germans as a per cent of all Jews who married
- 1919 – 1923: less than 25 %
- 1928 – 1933: nearly 60% in Hamburg, all of Germany: 37%
Thanks, Klaus.
That’s interesting. I had remembered from my studies of German history (in Israel) that the numbers of intermarriage between Jewish and Christian Germans were typically lower – certainly lower than the post-1928 spike.
Even so, the post-1928 numbers are substantially lower than rates of intermarriage today. This also does not address the identity of the majority of Jews, including the highly secularized and culturally assimilated, who held on to the Jewish ban against intermarriage, even into the 20th century.
The preceding conversation was about whether Jews in per-war Germany were a separate group or were they German citizens who happened to practice the Jewish religion. The terminology you use supports the first definition and the one I was arguing for. Was that yours or Barkai’s (“Germans” meaning Christian German nationals, and “Jews” meaning German nationals who are Jewish by religion)?
The term “Germans”
This is my wording to simplify the matter and make it more direct. Barkai uses the phrase “interfaith marriages of Jews” which is more correct.
On the matter to what degree Jews were a seperate group in Germany I don’t really know what criteria to use. Intermarriage rates point to a rapidly eroding separateness. On the other hand there were all kinds of Jewish groups/organizations separate from German ones. For instance there was a ‘Reichsbund jüdischer Frontsoldaten’ (veterans of WWI). Why weren’t they part of the German Veterans of the War ? When you look at the picture of the head of this Jewish veterans organization you can’t get more imperial German the way he sports his mustache.
What you learn in Israel and what you learn in Germany about the pre-WWII Jews is probably both biased. We tend to stress that ‘our’ Jews were so German, so well integrated and assimilated, so much better than the Jews anywhere else in the world. We tend to downplay the existing separateness and lingering animosity. I would like to see a poll asking todays Germans ‘Do you want the pre-WW II Jews back?’ – My guess is, a majority will say ‘yes’ because we all learned in school that ‘our’ Jews were so good. (What will the Poles say to the same question?)
“The preceding conversation was about whether Jews in per-war Germany were a separate group or were they German citizens who happened to practice the Jewish religion. The terminology you use supports the first definition and the one I was arguing for.”
So what you want to prove is German Jews were ‘seperate’ in pre war Germany……and that American Jews aren’t as seperate today in the US as they were in Germany …….and you are using or at least saying this is so because German Jews had their own societies, orgs, didn’t intermarry as much etc,etc…in pre war Germany.
Well except for that fact Jews intermarry more now, what’s different? US Jews have as many if not more ‘seperate’ Jewish centric culural societies, orgs, today as you say they had in Germany.
I am not trying to paint pre Hitler Germany as some utopia, but if you compare that German time period to same US time period….remember that back then in the US, Jews weren’t welcome in some social venues, regardless of their economic class. Perhaps that was the case in some German society also, but nothing I have ever read indicates that Germany officially isolated Jews before Hitler, and what social elements did do that in Germany looks to have been based more on class eliteness more so than Jewishness.
I would like to see a poll asking todays Germans ‘Do you want the pre-WW II Jews back?’ – My guess is, a majority will say ‘yes’ because we all learned in school that ‘our’ Jews were so good. (What will the Poles say to the same question?)
The posthumous love that certain European countries bestow on their lost Jews is legend. Poland has been in love with its dead Jews for years. Look at the Krakow klezmer fest, for which they have to fly in live Jews. Last time I was in Berlin, klezmer was pretty hot there too, with or without Jews.
@ American: The contemporary comparison of pre-war U.S. to Germany is a fair point.
@Klaus
I wouldn’t jump to any conclusions about my university studies with a professor who was a student of Mosse’s.
Regarding your opinion of German education, I don’t know what level you studied this material and I have no knowledge to agree or disagree with your judgement of German educational biases.
RE: ” Why weren’t they part of the German Veterans of the War ? ”
You can ask the same question about the USA today: “Why aren’t they part of the American Veterans” organization(s)? Why separate organization?
The head of the leading nationalist veterans’ organization, Theodor Duesterberg (who had even been the nationalists’ candidate for president), quickly found his political career eclipsed once the Nazis came to power, because he was a half-Jew.
Actually, Duesterberg was just a quater-Jew (meaning one of his four grandparensts was Jewish) – Anyway, as you say, he was a real nationalist German but he was also accepted by the NSDAP/Hitler’s party, despite him being a quater-Jew.
Let me get back to the main question whether the German Jews were more German or more Jewish. I think they were mostly more German (except the Ostjuden/Polish Jews, who made up close to 20% of the Jews living in Germany after WWI), but I don’t really know, but I know that …
- We Germans like to see the German Jews as ‘our’ Jews. – whereas
- The Israelis/Zionists like to see them as ‘their’ Jews.
BTW, there is often confusion about who perished in the Holocaust. It were not primarily German Jews, but Polish and Russian Jews.
Here is my rough calculation for German Jews, based on census data:
- 60% emigrated/were forced to emigrate – 312,000
- 30% killed or died of deprivation – 156,000
- 10% survived – 55,000
This is out of a total number of ca. 520.00 Jews living in Germany in 1933.
I know that …
- We Germans like to see the German Jews as ‘our’ Jews. – whereas
- The Israelis/Zionists like to see them as ‘their’ Jews.
I grew up in Israel, where, as you can imagine, Zionist history is taught. I never received the impression that pre-war German Jews were Zionists or proto-Israelis. On the contrary, German Jews were presented as a cautionary tale of a Jewish community that tried very hard to assimilate. I learned that, despite all their love of Goethe and Wagner, and intermarrying and the rest of it, the Nazis weren’t fooled. Because a Jew is a Jew is a Jew.
It is fair to say that Germany represented a general case. Germany, per Israeli schools, teaches that even the most assimilated and cultured Jews could not escape their Jewishness. And so, the only solution for Jews is to accept their Jewishness, accept that the world will ultimately reject them and accept their fate as a nation apart whose home is in Zion.
Thanks for your comment. Your Israeli interpretation must be right concerning the German Jews and their futility to become Germans and hence the need for a Jewish state.
That you don’t still have the stone your great-grandfather gave you disappointed me a little bit. But otherwise a good story.
>> He was Jew and Christian but neither Jew nor Christian, if you know what I mean. He took the best of both and left the rest on the side of the road. A worthy model.
Yes, a much more worth model than anyone who holds tribe above humanity, morality and justice.
That’s the model I and my wife chose for our model. One of our first decisions was not to get our son circumcised, despite tremendous and unified objection from her side of the family.
Citizen, her is an interesting parallel to your decision. My sister married, and it was she who, I am fairly sure, was the driving force behind making good and goddam sure her son didn’t get circumcised. (As I understand, you can’t turn your back on the hospital or they will almost as a standard procedure.)
And from what I’ve heard, he had girls practically camped out outside their door during high-school. What happened when he went away to college I can’t imagine. He was a very handsome kid. At least his Mom never went all Tullulah Bankhead when I was around, that was the last thing I wanted to see.
Thanks, Jamie for an intermarriage story from real life.
The same theme – romance between a Jewish man and an Irish woman – has been fictionized as “Abie’s Irish Rose,” a 1928 play, which begat a movie in 1928 and a movie remake in 1946, and a radio series in the early 1940′s. It was remade again as a television series, “Bridget Loves Bernie”, in 1972-3. Despite high ratings, CBS cancelled the TV series after only one season because the theme of intermarriage generated a lot of hate mail.
The leading couple of Bridget Loves Bernie, Meredith Baxter and David Birney, were married in real life for 15 years, and then divorced. Meredith Baxter then married for a third time (Birney was #2), then divorced again. She’s now a lesbian.
Thanks for the tidbit about Bridget Loves Bernie, with the wry ending. Where did the “hate mail” come from. I believe I read recently that it was establishment Jewish pressure (and probably “disapproval” mail, not hate mail. But maybe hate mail also. It’s kind of surprising, I think “mixed” relationships were pretty commonplace in the 60′s–I had one for a year, and I don’t think the subject ever came up. I would guess that my parents and the girls’ parents may have talked about it among themselves (within their respective marriages) but it was a complete non-subject as far as Debbie from Phillie and I were concerned. It only seems somewhat interesting after the fact.
“Zurawik discusses the controversy over the 1972-1973 series, Bridget Loves Bernie. Obvious stereotypes and a grotesque interfaith marriage ceremony ultimately grated upon the Jewish community to the extent that protests mounted to take the popular show off the air, and succeeded. Zurawik sees the entire ordeal as a case of CBS chief William Paley, a Jew reputedly uncomfortable with other Jews, being convinced by associate Fred Silverman and others “to go against his best judgment and dip his toe in the water with one Jewish character named Bernie, and what happens? Jews picketing outside CBS headquarters and wall-to-wall coverage in The New York Times of the outrage over the series” (p. 100). link to findarticles.com
Record: It was the highest rated network TV show ever to be cancelled, and after only one season.
Jack Kugelmass details the demise of Bridget Loves Bernie back in the day (at p 147); a bunch of rabbis complained the most; they were concerned about rising jewish intermarriage; CBS denied it was due to Jewish hate mail and said they only received 200 letters. Excerpts from the earlier episodes are detailed and are very funny, realistic, an assembly of bigots on both sides with the two lovers trying to mollify and navigate amidst them ; as complaints mounted the episodes became tame: link to books.google.com
Bridget Loves Bernie was 4th highest rated TV show when it was cancelled. It was a total cash cow.
“‘Bridget Loves Bernie’ Attacked By Jewish Groups,” NYT Feb. 7, 1973
“Some Jews Are Mad At Bernie,” NYT Feb 11, 1973
Albert Krebs, “‘Bridget Loves Bernie’ Dropped from C.B.S Schedule for Fall,” NYT, March 30, 1973
Here’s an AP news article of the day on the protests against Bridget Loves Bernie. Rabbis complained mainly of the sympathetic treatment given to intermarriage which according to them went against Jewish teaching. At the time CBS management was wringing its hands as it said it did not know what to do since millions of the show’s fans loved it. The show had at least 30 million regular fans at the time. The article says there was no significant objection to the show raised by the Catholic community or church anywhere.
link to news.google.com
All this inter-marriage stuff reminds me, I have got to make time to ask my wife what her religion is. After twenty-two years I think I have the right to ask, if I wait until she’s in a good mood.
But there’s no annulling it now, cause our marriage has been consommed. I’m always in the soup over one thing or another.
You got to ask your wife about her ethnicity – you know, it’s all in her genes.
Perhaps they could do an update to Bridget loves Bernie. How about Barack loves Bibi?
Interesting, Mooser, my wife’s side of the family made sure I knew what religion she was as soon as they discovered we were into a serious relationship. On my side, nobody did that.
“you know, it’s all in her genes.”
For her age, heck, for any age, she fits into her genes quite well, thank you.
But not too real. In real life, David Birney was an Irish American, and Meredith Baxter was a WASP!
Terryscott, your point? Baxter is also a lesbian.
“Baxter is also a lesbian.”
Yeah, but she could still answer my letters. Maybe we could just be friends or something.
Of course, you must already be quite intimate with her, if she’s discussing this kind of personal stuff with you. Give her my regards.
Naw, Mooser, she just plastered her coming out all over the news. So, moose man, what do you think of all the TV sitcoms, shows, and Hollywood romantic comedy flicks that have come out since Bridget Loves Bernie, you know, all the ones that always depict a nerdy Jewish guy and a placid blonde shiksa? And how many now of such ilk on big screen or small have depicted the Jewish woman in a flattering way? Is the pattern just happenstance? Can’t wait to hear your carefully considered response, as you stalk about out there in Mooseland. You like Larry David’s continuation of the pattern?
“Naw, Mooser, she just plastered her coming out all over the news.”
You believe that stuff in the papers? The only point I can muster in your favor is that up until today, she has refused to sleep with me. But I have been married for many, many years, and hardly available.
And Citizen, I really can’t comment on TV or movies, not watching either. If you do, you have my sympathy. I’d rather watch paint dry. Which is very interesting if you think about it. I mean, why does it dry first here but remain sticky over there? Why does the color of the paint appear to change so much as it dries? Questions like this I’m pondering and I should worry about who gives Bernie-Baxter whoever the pubba-rubba? Not on your tin-type, Margery.
“ones that always depict a nerdy Jewish guy and a placid blonde shiksa?”
Me, I fell into a ring of burning fire. I went down, down, down, and the flame was getting higher, and the next thing I knew the preacher was asking me “Wilt thou, Mooser”, and I could feel that 12-gauge infinity symbol on my neck. Of course I said “I wilt, I wilt” but they revived me with some moonshine and the ceremony went on.
@ Jamie Dyer,
Q: It was a survival mechanism…
R: May I suggest you watch Yoav Shamir’s ‘Defamation?’
.
Watch Defamation here
And then watch it again. Speaking of Jewish grand-mothers, this flick almost defines the term.
It saddens me that there should be American Jews that would hesitate for a second to talk about their heritage and lineage. And I guess my sadness is more because of what it says about their environment and conditioning than what it says about them.
I would think any American would have an amazing sense of pride at having a Jewish lineage. As a thought experiment, what if you could remove from American culture everything that has been contributed by Jews and Blacks. You would still have an Anglo/Hispanic/Asian residue, but think how flaccid it would be compared to what America is. While not denying that Jews and Blacks have contributed independently, the effects of the combination of their talents have been immense. The huge impact Blacks have had on American culture, most of which has been post-WWII, would not have been possible if Jews hadn’t recognized their talents and promoted them. What would America look like without the “moon-walk” or Muddy Waters. We’d still be playing just Mozart.
As an American ex-pat who has lived mostly in Canada and New Zealand, to my mind, it is the Jews and the Blacks more than anything that sets America apart from the rest of the world, with special reference to the Commonwealth countries, our closest cousins, none of which have any culture at all if you remove what they imported from America. After centuries of patient struggle against horrible discrimination, the Jews and Blacks both finally found a level of acceptance and tolerance and freedom from bigotry in America that allowed them to “do their thing.”
What worries me most is that Nana’s past of discrimination could become American Jews’ collective future if they get caught in an antisemitic blow-back that would surely result of if the nuclear rogue Israel keeps going in the direction it’s going in and precipitates a nuclear war. Somehow, the Israel-firsters have to be identified now so that it is they, and only they, among American Jews, who are held responsible should the worst happen.
I am reminded of Hebrew University professor Martin Van Creveld’s comments in 2009 regarding the way Israel has every major European city targeted: “We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that this will happen before Israel goes under.” In which case, any surviving Nana’s might want to keep mum on who their father was.
excuse me? what chutzpa.
Worse than chutzpa.
“As a thought experiment, what if you could remove from American culture everything that has been contributed by Jews and Blacks. You would still have an Anglo/Hispanic/Asian residue, but think how flaccid it would be compared to what America is.
“It’s the smarmy vulgarity of the relentless stream of ethnic braggadocio ”..to borrow a phrase.
Hi Annie,
‘Straight No Chaser – Thelonious Monk’
“The huge impact Blacks have had on American culture, most of which has been post-WWII, would not have been possible if Jews hadn’t recognized their talents and promoted them.”
ROTFL. My goodness, how could those poor Blacks have ever negotiated the alabaster paths of popular culture without a kindly Jewish hand, ripping them off a mile-a-minute.
You might want to peruse Eileen Southern’s “The Music of Black Americans” (I do believe it’s a standard text in many courses on the subject) and inform yourself on the extent to which Blacks managed to penetrate both high and low musical culture and commerce in the US with no help from any of the Ten Tribes.
most of which has been post-wwii? hmm, didn’t know that the southerner’s accent and food, not to mention the blues, was a post-wwii phenomenum.
“After centuries of patient struggle against horrible discrimination, the Jews and Blacks both finally found a level of acceptance and tolerance and freedom from bigotry in America that allowed them to “do their thing.”
Sure, we all remember the ante-bellum cultural utopia, when the slave quarters, after the day’s work was done, rang with the sounds of spirituals and klezmer bands.
But then came the Great Emancipation, and Jews and Blacks were once again free to go their separate ways, and do their thing. As they parted, they swore to meet again a hundred years from now, the Blacks as early RR musicians, and the Jews as rapacious producers. Only in America!
“Mr. Franklin, if your great-great grandaughter Aretha gets only mediocre results at Columbia, you make sure she comes and sees my great-great grandson, Jerry”
“I’ll do that Mr. Wexler, I know you’ll give her the respect she deserves!”
you crack me up mooser.
if you could remove from American culture everything that has been contributed by Jews and Blacks. You would still have an Anglo/Hispanic/Asian residue
residue. okayyyy. native american and arab culture? not even worth mentioning.
Yep, the leftover Anglos, Hispanics, and Asians are the residue of all that America means to the world.
BTW Denis…
Let me point out what most annoys others in the kind of statement like:
“You would still have an Anglo/Hispanic/Asian residue, but think how flaccid it would be compared to what America is. ”
It’s the way that one ethnic puts down” all others or dismisses their value in order to make that ethnic or group look better or superior to. This is a constant practice among Jewish hasbara…it’s very revolting. I don’t know if you are Jewish or Black or neither, and just think you are sticking up for Jews and blacks as minorities with this stuff. Whichever, this is the way you alienate people.
American, isn’t it interesting that Western European POV a la Enlightenment is deemed by omission “flaccid?” Where did the humanitarian principles advocated around the world today, whether earnestly or as deceptive cover, the very ones enshrined in and copied from the US Declaration of Independence and its implementing Constitution come from? That jazz don’t count, just the jazz that came from the literally black heart via jazz music showing in part it’s goals were not achieved? And what is white classical music if not very often a sound tribute to man’s highest goals and thoughts, a hard on for the best in Man, same as Jazz is the sound of a flaccid penis?
- ” huge impact Blacks have had on American culture … would not have been possible if Jews hadn’t recognized their talents and promoted them.” -
There is something to it, even before WWII. The Nazi propaganda depicted Jazz as a combination of Blacks and Jews. A famous poster showed a black saxophone player sporting a Star of David on his lapel. The founders of the Jazz label Blue Note Records were two German Jews from Berlin. – Jazz and Blues wasn’t outlawed in Nazi Germany, as many peolpe think, but it was never played on a state radio station (and there were no private ones).
True, Klaus Bloemker, the blacks gave America and the world jazz, and jewish promoters saw the meal ticket first and capitalized on it; too, I won’t say they were not emotionally moved by black jazz, and that was part of their motive to push it as a new form of music for the world. So that given, where do you think Atzmon figures in all this jazz history now and then? Isn’t Atzmon the ultimate jazz player for these jazzy times we are in?
As far as I can tell from Atzmon’s book, Charlie Parker turned the young Gilad Atzmon from an Israeli Jew into a human being – if I may say so.
Charlie Parker turned me into a jazz lover. I was already a human being and an Israeli Jew, as well as a whole lot of other things.
Klaus, yes, if memory serves, Atzmon writes about how, until he heard a Parker record he thought only Jews contributed anything worthwhile to the world–he was talking about how he was born and bred in Israel. He grabbed every Parker record available in the store, brought them home, and this changed his perception of Gentiles.
I believe you Shmuel. What shall I say as a German. If I had lived a generation before, I might have grown up a Nazi instead of a human being.
Klaus Bloemker, I think you are missing the point: Shmuel is an exception to the Israeli Jewish rule as is Atzmon; Schmuel is merely pointing out in my opinion that he awakened earlier than Atzmon to what was wrong with Israel in motion.
Okay, I didn’t want to say that Shmuel grew up in a way I might have grown up a generation ago in Nazi Germany and turned into a narrow minded nationalist. More to the contrary, as a German I should be low key about other people growing up. And I believe him, he didn’t become what I might have become a generation ago.
“As far as I can tell from Atzmon’s book, Charlie Parker turned the young Gilad Atzmon from an Israeli Jew into a human being – if I may say so.”
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
Read ‘em and weep.
“There is something to it, even before WWII. The Nazi propaganda depicted Jazz as a combination of Blacks and Jews”
The Nazis said it in their propaganda, so it must be true? Sure, okay, Klaus, whatever you say, pal. So how much “something to it” does Hitler’s description of the Jews in Vienna have?
- “So how much “something to it” does Hitler’s description of the Jews in Vienna have?” – Mooser
- Nothing at all, it was written in retrospect to rationalize his anti-Jewishness. When Hitler lived in Vienna he admired the Jews and in particular the Zionists who held similar “völkisch”/national ideas he had.
_____________________
And BTW, you don’t mention Alfred Lion and Francis Wolff, two German Jews from Berlin who established Blue Note Records in 1939.
The way you argue is ridiculous. I said “there is something to it” (Jazz and Jews). And this something (which I think was real) was picked up by the Nazi propaganda. I don’t think it was real because of the Nazi propaganda.
Klaus Bloemker, if memory serves, the passage in Mein Kampf that is subject here was of course written in retrospect, true; in fact he specifically wrote that the Jews he first saw he described as how they appeared to him, and his emotional reaction to them, when he first arrive in the big city Vienna from the hinterland (Graz?), at the age of 19. What is your source for your assertion that, “When Hitler lived in Vienna he admired the Jews and in particular the Zionists who held similar “völkisch”/national ideas he had.”? I recall when he lived at the pension, surviving by selling small rural landscape paintings, he worked with a few Jews who helped him sell his paintings, and he loved to argue politics.
I believe Hitler’s admiration for the Jews during his Vienna period is attested in Brigitte Hamann’s Hitler in Vienna, which cites sources. (Can’t swear to it. It’s been years since I read that book.) Another book I read more recently that says the same thing is Ralf Georg Reuth’s Hitlers Judenhass [Hitler's Hatred of the Jews].
Thanks, lysias
Hamann quotes Hitler’s first encounter with OstJuden, and asserts where he got his base model for his Nazi platform:
“Hitler mentions-in 1924, to be sure, in Mein Kampf- an encounter with an Eastern Jew. The apparition in a black caftan and black hair locks merely made him wonder: Is this a Jew? was my first thought. And : Is this a German? Once again, he says, this experience caused him to read up on the subject: For a few hellers I bought the first anti-Semitic pamphlets of my life. What happened then, he continues, was what may be called a radical anti-Semite’s typical obsession : Since I had begun to concern myself with this question and to take cognizance of the Jews, Vienna appeared to me in a different light than before. Wherever I went, I began to see Jews , and the more I saw, the more sharply they became distinguished in my eyes from the rest of humanity.”
————
“However, reality, as it emerges from the reports of Viennese eye witnesses, has little to do with the myths Mein Kampf purports. Apart from the special case of August Kubizek, no anti-Semitic remark by the young Hitler has been documented.”
————–
“In the men’s hostel he expressed his approval of Jewish tradition, which had managed to preserve the purity of the “Jewish race” for thousands of years. It should be remembered that in the work of list and Lanz von Liebenfels it is not the alien race that is dangerous and ruinous, but only the mixing of races, which decreases the value of the Aryan “noble people” and therefore should be avoided at all cost. As late as 1930 Hitler talked extensively about the Jews’ ability to preserve their race by way of religion and strict rules, among them, the prohibition of marriages with non-Jews. Hitler directly continued list’s theories when he told Wagner: Through Moses the Jewish people received a rule for life and living one’s life that was elevated to a religion which was entirely tailored toward the essence of one’s race, and simply and clearly, without dogmas and dubious rules of faith, soberly and absolutely realistically contains what served the future and self-preservation of the children of Israel. Everything is geared toward the well being of one’s own people, nothing toward consideration of others. After further explanations, Hitler arrived at the conclusion that we. ..no doubt have to recognize with admiration this incredible strength of the Jews’ preservation of their race.
Hitler adopted Jewish “purity of race” as nothing less than a model for his own weltanschauung regarding the necessity of the racial purity of Aryans.”
link to porges.net
“In the period of this bitter struggle (following pages apropos reality and, inter alia, the Vienna mainstream press, which he opined lauded France as the center of culture and made him feel humiliated, as a German, and his early views and very limited experience with Jews, which bought the concept of the Jew as historical victim, and against anti-semitism re struggle of his soul between idealistic emotion and reason), between spiritual education and cold reasoning, the pictures that the streets of Vienna showed me rendered me invaluable services. The Time came when I no longer walked blindly through the mighty city as I had done at first , but, with open eyes, looked at the people as well as the buildings.
One day when I was walking through the inner city, I suddenly came upon a being clad in a long caftan, with black curls.
Is this also a Jew? was my first thought.
At Linz they certainly did not look like that. Secretly and cautiously I watched this man, but the longer I stared at this strange face and scrutinized one feature after the other, the more my mind reshaped the first question into another form:
Is this also a German?
As was my custom in such cases, I tried to remove my doubts by reading. For the first time in my life I bought some anti-Semitic pamphlets for a few pennies. “–Mein Kampf
Reading and dwelling on the content of those pamphlets, Hitler said, “the matter seemed so monstrous, the accusations so unbounded that the fear of committing an injustice tortured me and made me anxious and uncertain again.”
He gradually concluded , “I could no longer doubt that they were not Germans with a special religion, but an entirely different race.” He focused on the OstJuden appearance and conduct especially (swarming in inner city & districts north of Danube Canal) with a new light and drew sharper distinctions. He said any lingering doubts were “finally dispelled by the of attitude of part of the Jews themselves.” Explaining: ” For the so-called liberal Jews did not deny the Zionists for being non-Jewish, but for being Jews whose open acknowledgment of their Jewish nationality was impractical or even dangerous. This did not alter their internal solidarity in the least. Soon this apparent fight between Zionists and liberal Jews disgusted me; it was unreal thoughout, based on lies, and little suited to the
generally accepted high moral standard and purity of this race.”
Hitler then goes on to say (I guess re OstJuden) they literally smell and are unclean, with dirty clothes, but their “moral blemish” was worse. Hitler then goes on to inquire into Jewish activity in a wide range of influential fields, especially the popular culture, arts and press.
DENIS- “…but think how flaccid it would be….”
Flaccid? Do you have any idea how that word terrifies me?
Imagined how it terrified Mozart!
Keith, I know, I know . . . you must be over 60, too.
Yes, I’m a Black, Jewish, racist, trouble-maker imam, but I’m glad a few of you have seen my point. It’s an important one.
The homogenous humanizers commenting above want to pretend we are one big, happy species with no distinct racial characteristics or talents — at least none that you can talk about in polite, politically correct company. I don’t do polite, politically correct company.
When you look back at the history of America’s heterogeneous culture, you can just about dissect it into the bits and parts that each of the races and ethnic groups contributed. It’s like gumbo; if you try you can taste each component.
In my opinion, the bits that have made America most loved around the world are those where the skills and talents of the Blacks and Jews complimented each other so well: 4/4 music with complex (i.e. African-derived) beats [jazz, blues, RR, . . .], sports [sans hockey], entertainment.
If you white folks can’t see that, that’s OK. But it’s also OK that you can’t jump or dance.
Denis, didn’t the Nazis too have their favorite parts of your gumbo?
>> I would think any American would have an amazing sense of pride at having a Jewish lineage.
I would think any person would have an amazing sense of pride at having a lineage of kind, honest and moral people. “Jewish” is not a guarantee of any of those things.
It’s better to not know who you are than to think you are somebody you’re not.
sometimes it’s hard making a distinction between slaves and slave traders.
“It’s better to not know who you are than to think you are somebody you’re not.”
This should be entered into the Book of Truisms.
Gee, Mooser, It seems to me that those who think they are this or that are hard to tell from those who actually know who they are–what’s the litmus test for your observation about human nature? Is it intellectual integrity? The ability to see the ultimate logical principal for human action a la Kant? Tell us, please. Thanks!
“those who actually know who they are”
And who would that be? When did I ever posit that such people existed? And don’t look at me, Citizen, I have never even claimed to know if I am a man or a moose.
My mistake, Mooser, you said it was better to not know who you are than to think you are somebody you’re not. I agree with that, and I see American does too.
Pearls to swine. Why do I waste my time? You are obviously not comfortable with the thought that American Jews should be proud of the contributions they have made. Shame on you; try to stop loathing yourselves.
I am intrigued that there is no comment on the speculation that there will be an antisemitic blow-back onto American Jews if Israel farts its nukes on the world.
Good that we are in agreement on the main point. Perhaps you American Jews in the crowd need to think about this before it happens. Better proactive than reactive, as “they” say.
“Pearls to swine. Why do I waste my time? You are obviously not comfortable with the thought that American Jews should be proud of the contributions they have made. Shame on you; try to stop loathing yourselves.”
I would try to stop “loathing” myself, but it’s pretty hard for a swine like me. But you really brought home the bacon with that one, Denis.
And I am very proud of my ancestry, Denis. There’s a very good probability that I am a direct descendant of Jacob Lis, a very famous Jew.
You are suggesting that Isaac Goldstern, who has contributed nothing, should feel proud because Mooser has contributed so much fun and wisdom to this blog?
In that case, should I feel proud because other people whose surnames also begin with “H” have contributed so much to the world?
I remember the life in Boston during the late 1950s and early 1960s. About half of my friends were jewish, however we never talked about religion, we were just friends. We partied, danced, went skiing or swimming together and even made interreligeous love!! That was the time when Israel was a far away place and zionism not yet made its ugly impression on the average jew.
As the nazis separated the germans and jews in Germany, as there were many friendships and inter-marriages between the two groups of humans, zionism did the same. Today were hear just way too much ” I am jewish or I am catholic or moslem”, however very little “I am a human”. After all, according to the rabbies only those are the real jews whose mother is jewish. How long do you have to follow that path before you end up not having any jews at all, killing the whole theory.
As about a million years ago we were swinging on those branches in Africa, (at that time it had no name), we did not believe in any supernatural being who created this world in just six whole days!!! and declared one group of people, (apes), to be better than the other one.
Ugly and criminal humans with purpose did that.
Several people have blamed Jewish ethno-centrism on Zionism. I’m sure it had an impact but is far from being the onlyfactor.
You mention other groups that have a stronger sense of ethnic identity now than was common in the 50s. Today, it is often the case that native born Americans identify ethnically to a greater degree than their immigrant parents and grandparents did 60 years ago. Seems to be a global, American trend.
Just like in late 19th century Europe, Jews, yet again, assmilate along with everybody else into ethnic groups.
How is Zionism to blame for this American trend?
People are drawn to any available and efficient means to political power. If strong identification with a subgroup looks like an available and efficient means to power within the whole political group then people will be drawn to this kind of identification. We seem, for example – for an important example, to have a phenomenon of greater influence for religious groups without any real rise in religious beliefs. (In the UK, we have the topic of gay marriage, increasingly supported by public opinion, increasingly opposed by the Catholic and Evangelical minorities, who seem like to win.) The American Zionists have demonstrated the effectiveness of sub-group power and campaigning more effectively than anyone else anywhere, so they have proved a point of which others have taken notice. Are they doing anything wrong? They would argue that there can be no wrong in doing what the democratic system calls for.
Yes, MHughes, I agree with your comment on the general nature of the politically ambitious, but is Gay Rights domestically, an issue comparable to Foreign policy support that is in fact support right or wrong of a foreign state solely concerned with its own self-construed welfare? George Washington thought the latter a major concern for the continued viability of his new nation, and he said so in his Farewell Address to the American public.
We seem, for example – for an important example, to have a phenomenon of greater influence for religious groups without any real rise in religious beliefs.
That’s interesting. My sense, here in the U.S. is that there is declining religiosity (mainstream and even Evangelical Christian as well as Jews), yet the power of religion is undiminished.
I am fascinated by this tale and the comments which all deal one way or another with bloodlines, whether being tethered by them, or casting them off to whatever degree of desire or success.
I’m glad that some anachronisms are dying off. The old ways sometime remind me of the marriage restrictions of the British Royal Family.
Harrumpf!
Parts of this conversation remind me of the African-American kid (and I imagine there are many) who never knew that he was “black” or anything other than a “person” or a “kid” until the first time someone treated him as “other” or “worse” (or, for that matter, “better”) than someone else, another kid.
Often a terrible blow. Imagine learning, say at age 5, that you live in a racist society which discriminates against you and which contains lots of people who want to make you feel bad.
OK, at age 5 you know that you are “German”. sometime later you learn (maybe Hitler teaches you) that you are a “Jew” and not “German” at all, or not only German.
Who you are is partly a matter of what you feel and believe and largely a matter of how you are treated.
If I were the kid of a hedge fund manager (or himself), I don’t know if it would matter to me if I felt Jewish or American, but I bet I would feel powerful and very, very rich. If Jewish charities tried to hit me up for money, I might well say, “buzz off.”
Back in the early 1950s, the kid who lived in the home with the only TV in the neighborhood–wonder what he thought? Naturally all the kids around wanted to be on his good side.
RE: “Who you are is partly a matter of what you feel and believe and largely a matter of how you are treated.” This is the plot of dozens of B movies made for HS teens, especially beginning in the 1980s.