American Jewish support for Israel seems to be dropping if you look at numbers attending the Israel Day Parade in New York:
2012 -- 35,000 marchers -- predominately Orthodox Jews. Haaretz:
In 2002, an estimated 750,000 spectators came to watch 100,000 marchers.
These days the parade, which last year changed its name to the Celebrate Israel Parade from the Salute to Israel Parade, draws much smaller numbers. It also has grown increasingly Orthodox over the years; most of the marchers are children from area day schools.
1977: 75,000 marchers -- cross-sectional parade. (New York Times)
Unfortunately, it looks like Americans for Peace Now are not in the exit line: link to peacenow.org
people, including US jewry, need education, and a central database on HASBARA with REFUTATIONS and authoritative links is in order.
go to http://www.antihasbara.com
(antihasbara.com)
or email me at skilng@hotmail.com to contribute. we will set up a wiki with the most common hasbara lines, and refutation (links, facts, rationality, etc.)
it will be a wikipedia format database, and we will all benefit from it in many ways-
we can link to a given hasbara line when we see it
we can copy paste parts with ease
we will learn from additional links and refutations
we will EDUCATE the many people who are sincere, and mislead by hasbara
join to help, and i will get this off the ground. i’m paying for hosting, and have many other things going on…. i need people committed to help.
it will grow organically, and serve as a great resource, with minimal input. some of the best comments on MW are lost down the memory hole. here we can make them better accessible, or at least the valuable content within them.
thanks for posting this….. we need additional tools, if only to organize the vast knowledge MW holds.
[FYI i have arabic and hebrew translators at the ready as it grows.... israelis also are *victims* of hasbara, and palestinians and others can also benefit from the knowledge base]
I am a little confused by the Orthodox turnout. I take it some Orthodox support Zionist Israel and others consider it blasphemy?
The relevant distinction would be between orthodox and ultra-orthodox. The former support Zionism. The ideological settlers in Israel are orthodox, for example.
As for the latter, most of them have adopted Zionist narratives even if their historical Representatives (Agudat Israel – link to en.wikipedia.org ) are not Zionist, strictly speaking.
The short answer is:
Modern Orthodox are Zionists for theological reasons. Their organization (OU) was an official sponsor.
Ultra-Orthodox (“black-hatters”) started out as non-Zionist but have since jumped on the Israeli bandwagon.
The notable exception are a subset of the ultra-Orthodox, the Hassidim. Although some of them, such as Habad, are heavily involved in supporting Israel.
Thanks Ofer and Elliot. Much obliged.
Anyone notice the ironic theme of this year’s parade? “Israel branches out”. No kidding! From the flier soliciting groups to participate:
“We invite you to join us in learning about Israel as it relates to: flowers, blossoming, being fruitful, growing, going out on a limb, branching out into (hi‐tech), stem‐ming the tide of …., trees, plants, agricultural models, finding our roots, seeds etc. Put on your thinking caps and use your fertile imaginations to create a Garden of Delight on 5th Avenue!”
Think maybe the “branching out” into more and more Palestinian land has anything to do with the dwindling numbers?
I’d say it’s more that Zionist Jews who have marched in Jerusalem and sung” Mohamed is a whore” and “Death to the Arabs” or even the Hebron parade with its famous song “Palestinians to the ovens” find the NYC thing tame by comparison. There is no chance in midtown Manhattan of catching an Arab and beating him to a pulp with your whole body throbbing with adrenalin so why bother ?
link to youtube.com
“There is no chance in midtown Manhattan of catching an Arab and beating him to a pulp with your whole body throbbing with adrenalin so why bother ?”
Or maybe the reason they can’t put together a similar pro-Palestinian parade is because suicide vests aren’t as readily available in NYC.
You know Seafoid, there’s nothing sadder than someone who can’t break out of his little cult of negativity and thus can’t accomplish anything useful. The parade has long been an example of how people can unite around one positive idea in a creative and fun way. No one is violent, and no one is focused on hating anyone. The only people focused on hate are the Neturei Karta people, who hold up signs saying that rabbinic law mandates that Jews be “subservient” to other nations.
If you don’t like the parade, don’t go. To make comments like yours just makes you look stupid and whiny.
I challenge you, and your critics here, to make an event promoting one positive thing about Palestine and the Palestinians. But you won’t do it. You can’t escape your hatred of Israel, which outweighs any positive that you could accomplish.
There hasn’t been a suicide bombing since 2008.
Has that got you down? Tearing up while reminiscing about the good old days when you could talk about rabbis picking up limbs?
Why can’y you break out of your little cult of negativity hophmi? You just look stupid and whiny – and worst of all, like you actually long for more suicide bombings, for hasbara purposes.
I challenge you, and your critics here, to make an event promoting one positive thing about Palestine and the Palestinians. But you won’t do it.
You lose. I have helped stage an event celebrating Palestinian culture. I have participated in a festival celebrating Palestinian culture.
I celebrate Palestinian cuisine on a regular basis when I eat hummous and falafel.
“I challenge you, and your critics here, to make an event promoting one positive thing about Palestine and the Palestinians.”
I sponsor students in Bir Zeit university , hoph. Education is the ultimate confidence booster. Maybe you could do the same for Orthodox kids in Israel. They are hopelessly unprepared for the future.
Israel is a car crash.
hophmi June 4, 2012 at 4:29 pm
” maybe the reason they can’t put together a similar pro-Palestinian parade is because suicide vests aren’t as readily available in NYC”
Uh? There’s more, far better and cheaper materials available in the US for building suicide belts than any terrorist could possibly dream about scavenging for Palestine.
Why bother with a suicide belt anyway? US citizens have a right to bear arms and quite regularly blow each other away with far more efficiency than any suicide vest.
“I challenge you, and your critics here, to make an event promoting one positive thing about Palestine and the Palestinians. But you won’t do it”
Er … it happens all the time
“You can’t escape your hatred of Israel”
Says some Hasbara indoctrinate, who advocates Israel isolate itself further and further through ghastly ILLEGAL Government policies until it only has the US veto vote in the UNSC to protect it from the laws it obliged itself to uphold. A fool who cheers as successive Israeli Governments endanger the lives of Israeli citizens by encouraging them to illegally settle in “territories occupied”.
BTW …. Where’s the ‘hatred’ in wanting one’s homeland state to adhere to the law, it’s own charter, the UN Charter and the basic tenets of Judaism, all of which would work to protect it were it to remain in its own territory instead of breaking International Law and the UN Charter.
This is an old story. Generally, when there is a lot of rain in the forecast, like there was yesterday, you get fewer spectators and fewer marchers. Last year, the weather was nicer, and more people showed up. It’s the same with protestors. I didn’t march this year until around 2:30, when some of the rain came, and I didn’t see anyone in the protestors pen outside of the Neturei Karta people. I’m guessing more the four protestors showed up.
The fact that the marchers have grown increasingly orthodox in recent years is a function of the predominance of orthodox organizations in American Jewish organization life. To march, you have to be affiliated with a synagogue or some communal Jewish organization; most marchers are synagogue-based or day school-based. Twenty or thirty years ago, non-denominational communal organizations and conservative and reform synagogues were much stronger than they are today, so there were more marchers. Today, non-orthodox Jews are less likely to be institutionally affiliated.
The parade is still a big deal. Synagogues and schools from all over the country take part, and when the weather is nice, lots of people line the streets to watch. Every major Jewish communal organization from left to right on the political spectrum still takes part and the atmosphere is always very festive. And the intramural politics are set aside for a day.
This is another one of those things where I would advise you all to copy rather than criticize. Why not organize a march for a Palestinian state in the city? Invite the kids from Muslim schools to march and make floats and art projects celebrating positive things about Palestinian and Islamic culture. You’d gain a lot of support if you did.
“Over 30,000 marchers” in the 2011 parade, when the weather was apparently gorgeous.
You cited some website that was advertising the parade, not a count of the parade’s actual marching numbers.
Are you really going to argue about whether the weather affects turnout for a parade?
Do you think Pam Geller would underestimate the number of marchers? Here’s what she said:
a agree. the site the jawa report linked to was the site that puts on the parade, so they should know how many registered people were marching. unless anyone gets to come and march.
OK, have it your way. Your way is that the number of marchers is increasing, since this year it was estimated at 35,000, according to Ha’aretz. Let me know when you can muster 30,000 or 35,000 people for your cause.
Your way is that the number of marchers is increasing, since this year it was estimated at 35,000, according to Ha’aretz.
And according to Haaretz, it was 100,000 in 2002. Seriously, I’m sure the weather affects the number of spectators, but its highly unlikely that it affects the number of participants, when those participants have to register in advance and probably have to go through some procedure to withdraw as well. Withdrawal at the last minute for weather reasons would most likely dim ones chances of registering successfully the next year.
So the number of participants have diminished significantly from 2002, down to just over a third of the 2002 numbers. Geller lied, or just simply got her info wrong, yet again.. What a shock!
Yes, the parade is still a big deal. But I have seen with my own eyes, from year to year, how interest, certainly among the non-orthodox, seems to be waning.
I am an example of that phenomenon. Until this year, I marched with my synagogue every year for the past 10 or so. While I have been extremely critical of Israel’s occupation, treatment of the Palestinians, and stonewalling of the peace process for as long as I can remember, I was able to justify my participation as support for what Israel should or could be rather than what it is. And it was fun; as you say, very festive. But the more I learn about what is actually going on over there, and the more I study the history of the State, it has become harder and harder to justify even that level of participation.
I am a proud Jew, identified with my heritage, religion and people. I feel a draw towards the “Holy Land”, just as many other Jews, Muslims and Christians feel. I would like to visit there. But I don’t want to visit an apartheid state that is built on someone else’s land. I want to visit a state that democratically represents all of its people. That’s the sort of state whose parade I will happily march in. And that’s the sort of parade that will hopefully bring back many of the rest of those 750,000, and a lot of others, for a real celebration (God willing/Inshallah!)
GJB: I sympathize with your experience, but the fact of the matter is that Jews who oppose occupation do march, and Israel is more than the occupation.
The lack of participation amongst non-orthodox groups reflects both apathy and a diminution of non-orthodox institutionalism, but not necessarily a disenchantment with Israel itself.
The lack of participation amongst non-orthodox groups reflects both apathy and a diminution of non-orthodox institutionalism, but not necessarily a disenchantment with Israel itself.
so apathy is not a sign of disenchantment? what a fantastical world you live in hophmi.
While you may be right about the diminution of non-orthodox institutionalism, as for the apathy, some of that, as in my case, may come out of precisely that disenchantment with Israel. Israel is indeed more than the occupation, which is why I have more and more trouble with what it is, as I’m sure have many others have who previously marched in the parade.
Is it even possible to have a “Jewish State” and still fulfill Jewish, let alone humanistic and democratic values? I’ve had to rethink a lot of what I have supported; the “ideal” that I had thought was possible, a truly democratic and Jewish state, seems to be an oxymoron. As I read people like Jerry Haber at the “Magnes Zionist” blog (an orthodox professor of Jewish studies and philosophy), I realize that it’s “OK” to be Jewishly identified and still question Zionism.
I’m still ambivalent – maybe I can still support a Jewish state (whatever that is), but it would have to fulfill some pretty tough conditions: Right of return for all people displaced in the Nakba and subsequently; full and equal rights for all residents; total end to the occupation; if it’s a 2 state solution, Palestine must be a viable nation, controlling its resources, airspace and water, and be able to defend itself, meaning no demilitarization. A tall order for Israelis to accept, fraught with difficulties even within the Jewish community, which is much of why I am so ambivalent over this sort of solution.
If I’ve thought long and hard over all this, I have to assume that I’m not alone. Hard to say how many no longer march in the parade for these reasons, but I’m sure it is a factor for many.
hophmi – you’re using circular logic. Israel is the only dogma that binds Jews together: the Israeli flag in the synagogue, the Israel Emergency Appeal signs outside the synagogue, the vocal “consensus” that we all support Israel. Israel solidarity days are the only regular, community-wide event of the Jewish community.
The diminishing participation of non-O Jews Israel parade shows that the dogma of Israel solidarity no longer works for American Jews.
So, what is the value of Israel for Jewish life in America?
what binds most jews together is always siding with the oppressed, never with the oppressor, even (better, especially) when the oppressor happens to be a jew, as is the case with the zionist entity israel.
“Israel is more than the occupation. ”
True. And the USSR was more than the destruction of the kulaks and the Holodomor. And South Africa was more than the Apartheid. And Nazi Germany was more than the anti-Semitism. And the C.S.A. was more than the slavery.
“Why not organize a march for a Palestinian state in the city?”
You mean turn Central Park into a Gaza style refugee camp ? Who would man the gates? And would City Hall be able to bomb it biannually ?
“You mean turn Central Park into a Gaza style refugee camp ? Who would man the gates? And would City Hall be able to bomb it biannually ?”
So you don’t support a Palestinian state. Understood. Your negativity is depressing. I feel sorry for the Palestinians, that they have useless advocates like you in their corner.
At this stage I have given up on the 2 SS Hoph. The Jews don’t want it.
So Israel is back in play. I hope something can be salvaged from Zionism. And I hope the Palestinians are kind to the bots.
Why not organize a march for a Palestinian state in the city?
Back in he day, perhaps five years ago, helpful Zionists used to suggest that the Palestinians organize a peaceful march on Israel’s borders. I remember hearing those same words: You’d gain a lot of support if you did. Well, the Palestinians did and they succeeded in taking the sting out of the complaint “where’s the Palestinian Gandhi?” But that didn’t stop Israel murdering protesters and it didn’t get them a state or any of their reasonable demands.
Thanks for the suggestion though.
“But that didn’t stop Israel murdering protesters and it didn’t get them a state or any of their reasonable demands.”
It’s gotten them more support than they had before, even though the march wasn’t exactly peaceful, and unlike the British, who were a declining empire, the Israelis actually have a state next door and real security interests.
In Gandhi’s time, the British killed thousands of peaceful protestors in a single day.
Anyway, I’m talking about the diaspora, not the Middle East. Surely there are enough pro-Palestinian people in NY to organize a march or a parade.
Today on “Democracy Now!”:
Norman Finkelstein on the Role of BDS & Why Obama Doesn’t Believe His Own Words on Israel-Palestine
Norman Finkelstein, author of the new book, “Knowing Too much: Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel Is Coming to an End,” argues that President Obama’s hawkish support for Israel is belied by his liberal background as a law professor and community organizer. Responding to Obama’s speech this year before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, Finkelstein says, “President Obama clearly doesn’t believe a word he’s saying [on Israel-Palestine]. And that’s probably the most troubling or the most disconcerting thing about listening to him. … He says we have Israel’s back. Well, what he actually means is, rich American Jews have me, meaning Obama, in their pocket, and I have my hands in their pocket.” Known as one of Israel’s most prominent critics, Finkelstein says the goal of the Boycott, Divest and Sanctions campaign and the broader movement for Middle East peace should be to mobilize public opinion on what most already support: a two-state solution rooted in international law. “Politics is not about personal opinions,” Finkelsten says. “It’s about trying to reach a public and getting them to act on their own sense of right and wrong.”
link to democracynow.org
How much of what he says about anything does Obama believe?
It’s gotten so that I have as much trouble listening to his speeches as I had with Bush’s.
This fits into a pattern with Finkelstein – claiming those he disagrees with don’t really believe what they say or didn’t write what they wrote. It shouldn’t be surprising anymore.
@ lysias
I can’t stand Obama since he ordered the murder of Osama bin Laden and then said this: “Justice was done. And I think that anyone who would question that the perpetrator of mass murder on American soil didn’t deserve what he got needs to have their head examined.” A murderer, who mistakes revenge for justice. Horrible.
I don’t care if Obama actually believes what he says. I take every politician at their word, on principle. Because if they don’t mean it, then why do they say it?
Sometimes revenge serves justice.
He didn’t order the murder of OBL. He ordered the Navy Seals to attack OBL’s compound. There is no evidence anyone was murdered.
Hophmi i think it’s safe to say that no one was interested in taking
OBL alive.This whole operation was a sanctioned execution.
A targeted hit only they used bullets instead of smart bombs this time.
Great, now this site is a discussion forum among Zionists.
OlegR, but he put it elegantly, no?
There is no evidence anyone was murdered.
Oh trust me these discussions would make all of our I/P bickering pale in comparison
“There is no evidence anyone was murdered.”
LMAO. There’s plentiful evidence. In fact, there is no evidence that the SEAL team was anything but a hit squad… glorified murderers. Don’t forget that the initial plan was to murder everyone in the house — including all the children — by hitting it with 32 2,000 lb. bombs.
Oh, I forgot, their religious nutcases are murderers, our religious-nutcases aren’t (including the SEAL d-bag who radioed”For God and country… Geronimo, Geronimo, Geronimo” after the hit, thereby demonstrating both the religious lunacy and rank racism that always been at the core of the US military.)
Here’s another barometer revealing American Jewish activity and concern–the fact that Twitter is fighting for free speech and personal privacy, while Google and Facebook are partnering with both government and the usual zealots to muzzle content on social internet pursuits–not sure about which way the pressure is dropping:
link to forward.com
Interesting that I had to get this info from the Forward, not the US mainsteam media.
To quote the Haaretz article, “Turnout for the parade,, usually is a function of what’s happening in Israel – and the weather. In years when Israel has been embattled, such as during the second intifada, participation swelled. ”
So participation in the parade has more to do with sensitivity to Israel’s security and less to do with any perceived loss of political support.