Great Neck
I got this photo from a friend. It is of a private Jewish day school in Great Neck, N.Y. He wrote to me: What kind of message does this send to the kids, and outsiders for that matter?
As an answer, let me quote Douglas Rushkoff, writing of his youth going to Larchmont Temple in NY, in “Rally Round the Flag” (an essay in this great book edited by Alisa Solomon and Tony Kushner):
“The flag on the left was American, and the one on the right was Israeli. Which one was I suppose to be looking at when I worshiped? Which one deserved our allegiance? Why were they even in the temple, to begin with?… I figured the one we Jews really believed in was the Israeli flag. The one with the Jewish star… But then why did we have an American flag up there, too? This, I concluded, was a precaution in case a gentile walked in during the middle of services and wanted to know why we were all worshipping a Jewish flag. Weren’t we Americans?”
Pursuing the question into his adult life, and a critical stance toward Israel, Rushkoff concluded on a very hopeful note:
“If I had to pick a flag that best represented the spirit and law of my Torah, it’d be the one on the left.”
The flag set up outside the synagogue in my hometown was US on top, Israeli just below it. I never had a problem understanding the message.
“I never had a problem understanding the message”…Dan
I don’t think you ‘get’ the message.
I have never ever seen an American flag in a church …..at least not in my area and it is southern religious, gung ho patriots and
military over run.
Seperation of church and state (meaning religious nationalism) buddy…and seperation from politics…and the founders had a good damn reason for it…they are probably all turning in their graves at what is going on today.
Does one ever see Irish or Italian or Polish flags in Roman Catholic churches in the United States? Not to the best of my knowledge.
British flags in American Protestant churches? Difficult to imagine.
I think the only places that I would consider appropriate for the display of a foreign flag in the US would be in front of the embassy of a foreign nation, or institutions like the UN, and perhaps ceremonies geared to honor that foreign nation (like waving British flags if the queen visits).
The photo of Hillary Clinton with an Israeli flag behind her, and the Israeli flag in the offices of many of our political representatives, is an affront to my American sensibilities.
Yes sean you do see this sometimes, flags of the vatican and also for example the Croatian flag at a church with people from that country.
As long as it is in the proper order, I don’t see the problem with flags in religious and cultural centers and neither do our laws.
… also for example the Croatian flag at a church with people from that country.
Does the Jewish Day School in Great Neck, NY cater to Israelis only? Because most American Jews are NOT from Israel, thus your example is not analogous.
tokyobk,
You wrote:
“Yes sean you do see this sometimes, flags of the vatican and also for example the Croatian flag at a church with people from that country.”
It is highly unlikely that mainstream Christian groups in the United States would display the flag of a foreign nation in their churches and religious ceremonies as an expression of ethnic nationalism and patriotism for two reasons:
1. Most Christians are not ethnic nationalists and Christianity as a whole has rejected ethnic nationalism as an organizing ideological principle. Christians try to rise to a higher and more universal level than narrow ethnic nationalism.
2. Mainstream Christians from most or all major ethnic groups are fully assimilated and integrated into American society and do not share or divide their loyalties and patriotism with any other nation.
You wrote:
“As long as it is in the proper order, I don’t see the problem with flags in religious and cultural centers and neither do our laws.”
It becomes a huge problem if the display of those flags becomes associated with aggressive and rancorous lobbying on behalf of a foreign government that is injurious to the best interests of Americans.
We now live in a world in which many pro-Israel activists verbally attack Americans and Europeans, including presidents and heads of state, with unbridled viciousness. Displaying the Israeli flag in American and European settings sends all kinds of disturbing messages in the present political climate.
I had a boyfriend from peru and I went to the local peruvian festival thing and they waved flags there, which I thought was ok, cause it was all about peru (they also have festivals for Colombians guatamalans and other nationalities)
So festivals celebrating your culture, football (soccer) matches when your country’s team is playing, and protesting on behalf of your native country outside the un or embassy.
To say nothing of the slippery slope.
Thomas Jefferson was the one who said there should be a ‘wall of separation between the church and the state”. For good reason — our original European founders were well versed in the history of battles between King and Popes as to who would rule the State or in other words — “rule over the people”.
Who for example is the Pope or the Catholic Church to tell the government they should not offer birth control benefits in drug coverage and make a “political issue” of it? If some religion objects to some state action let them tell their members not to use it–DO NOT TELL OTHER PEOPLE what they can have access and what they cannot. If the Pope can’t control his Catholics…tough shit….the state doesn’t have the obligation to withhold from the entire population a benefit just because the Catholics don’t like it. The same goes for abortion, stem cells and other things some religious group might be against.
IOW….if a religious members object to something that’s their choice, use it or not, do it or not, their business….it is NOT the religions right or place to impose it on anyone else THRU THE GOVERNMENT.
Every time I see some religious freak political candidate like Santorum who said Kennedy made him sick because he said he believed in the absolute separation of church and state when questioned about his Catholicism I see how far down that slippery slope we have gone when all these religious voters “even think” they have the right to impose their religious values on an entire nation.
Thomas Jefferson was the one who said there should be a ‘wall of separation between the church and the state”. For good reason — our original European founders were well versed in the history of battles between King and Popes as to who would rule the State or in other words — “rule over the people”.
Here is a link to Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists: link to loc.gov
Jefferson’s letter to Mordecai-Manuel Noah provides a much better indication of his thinking on the separation of synagogue and state and the undesirability of the establishment of a sectarian Jewish state. He felt that all religious sects were inherently intolerant:
link to memory.loc.gov
“Does one ever see Irish or Italian or Polish flags in Roman Catholic churches in the United States? Not to the best of my knowledge.”
No, but every one I’ve ever been in contained the flag of the Vatican, which is a separate State, in addition to the US flag.
Thomas Jefferson on the Old Testament:
To William Short, August 4, 1820:
“There are, I acknowledge, passages not free from objection, which we may, with probability, ascribe to Jesus himself; but claiming indulgence from the circumstances under which he acted. His object was the reformation of some articles in the religion of the Jews, as taught by Moses. That sect had presented for the object of their worship, a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust. Jesus, taking for his type the best qualities of the human head and heart, wisdom, justice, goodness, and adding to them power, ascribed all of these, but in infinite perfection, to the Supreme Being, and formed him really worthy of their adoration. Moses had either not believed in a future state of existence, or had not thought it essential to be explicitly taught to his people. Jesus inculcated that doctrine with emphasis and precision. Moses had bound the Jews to many idle ceremonies, mummeries and observances, of no effect towards producing the social utilities which constitute the essence of virtue; Jesus exposed their futility and insignificance. The one instilled into his people the most anti-social spirit towards other nations; the other preached philanthropy and universal charity and benevolence. The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation, is ever dangerous. Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion: and a step to right or left might place him within the gripe of the priests of the superstition, a blood thirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel.”
link to stephenjaygould.org
I have never ever seen an American flag in a church …..at least not in my area and it is southern religious, gung ho patriots and
military over run.
Many of the churches broadcast their Sunday services on the local channels in my area. I just surfed a few channels, and its still not uncommon to see the pulpit flanked by the US flag and the Christian flag here in Kansas. That’s obviously not an example of divided loyalty in the Bible belt. But some do object to the presence of the US flag, e.g. link to csmonitor.com
” its still not uncommon to see the pulpit flanked by the US flag and the Christian flag here in Kansas”..Hostage
What domination are those churches?
What domination are those churches?
One of them was Southern Baptist. I think the other was either the Church of the Nazarene or Assembly of God. I was just checking for a flag and wasn’t paying that much attention.
Hostage wrote:
“One of them was Southern Baptist.”
Southern Baptists are the Christian sect which comes closest to sharing the anti-American values of Zionism (ethnic nationalism, Old Testament cultism, racism, etc.) — in fact, Southern Baptists were enthusiastic supporters of the Confederacy, the US Civil War and the institution of slavery — they were explicitly anti-American in their value system and in many cases still are. Christian Zionism seems to be primarily a product of Southern Baptist culture.
But even Southern Baptists don’t fly a *foreign* flag outside their churches — at least I think not. They are American nationalists (often with a white nationalist vibration), not English nationalists.
Try Googling [southern baptists confederacy] for the full background.
First hit:
“The Baptist Church and the Confederate Cause”
link to digital.library.okstate.edu
Actually I think i “get” the message quite clearly – I was talking about flags that were OUTSIDE like the ones in the pic above. I see US Flags on Church grounds ALL THE TIME.
There you go again, buddy. Read my post again. See the word OUT-freaking-SIDE? But you respond, Ive never seen an american flag INSIDE. I SAID OUTSIDE!!!!!!!!!!! Enough already American.
Of course there’s no comparison between the two flags. At least since the Civil Rights era and immigration reform in 1965, if not back to Ellis Island or the Irish and German immigration of 19th century, the American flag has not been the exclusive symbol of a single ethnic or religious collective. The other flag is inherently a collectivist symbol for a small sub-population of the U.S. that is all but closed to outsiders.
@Dan
Inside-outside, who cares. “If” it was’ just’ a religious flag it would be fine—but that is not the WAY it is used in most instances since the avent of zionism…it is a national symbol used to imbue young Jews and Jews period with Israeli nationalism…to make worship of or fidelity to Israel and Judaism the same.
They have a right to do it…but the rest of us have a right to point out what and why they are doing it.
And as far as I am concerned the American flag is so ‘overused’ it’s close to meaning nothing. …..little lapel pins of the flag on politicians, especially with the Israel flag attached?..sick joke.
“I have never ever seen an American flag in a church”
Every Catholic Church I’ve ever been in contained a US flag and a flag of the Vatican.
“Every Catholic Church I’ve ever been in contained a US flag and a flag of the Vatican.”…Woody
Well, my uncle was a Jesuit and I went to Catholic schools from kindergarden thru highschool at a Catholic boarding school and so was required to attend services and have never seen a American flag used…..so if you have it’s a late development that wasn’ t around in the 40′s,50′s and 60′s. But I will call and check out the Catholic church here and see. The last time I was there was for a wedding and didn’t notice one.
It’s been since the mid-70s to today.
link to senate.gov
You will enjoy this MRW…..a debate among the Rabbis where in they decided on the flag…just an excerpt, read the whole thing…a great example of their type of rationalization.
link to data.ccarnet.org
‘ It is true, the Committee wrote, that we recite prayers in the synagogue for the welfare of the country in which we live. It is also true, however, that Jews have long prayed for the return to the land of Israel and the re-establishment there of Jewish national life. Thus, “the flags of the United States and Israel on a pulpit might be said to symbolize the prayers which have always been said in the synagogue.” The flag of Israel, moreover, is dominated by the six-pointed Star of David, which “is now commonly recognized as a symbol of Jews and Judaism throughout the world.
” Since “there is no clear distinction between Jews and Judaism, between our religious and our national aspirations,” the display of this Jewish national symbol cannot be objectionable on Judaic religious grounds.”
‘ This does not mean that the flag must be displayed. As the responsum noted, our synagogues have varying policies on this matter, so that “in any case, both the loyalty of our communities to the United States and our common concern for Israel are clear with or without the placement or possession of flags.”
Israel, in other words, is emphatically not a “foreign” country to us.”
It may not be the sovereign entity of which we are citizens and to which we owe our political allegiance. But it is, in the most deeply Jewish sense, our own, in our devotion to its well-being and in our identification with the history and experience that its national symbols represent.
“We may therefore sing Hatikvah at our religious services, whether or not we choose to accompany it with our own national anthems’
It’s good to be aware of this basic level of ethnic decorum. As it happens, other faiths view themselves much more in terms of belief and ritual. Only a minuscule minority identify themselves in such a reductionistic genetic fashion.
In other words, American, the rationalization for dual loyalty.
Is there any other ‘religion’ that says it has ‘national” aspirations?
I’n asking , I am not familiar with one that does.
‘Only a minuscule minority identify themselves in such a reductionistic genetic fashion.’
While I believe this take is itself reductionist, there’s no denying that Judaism has a strong ethnic (or at least national) component. Like Hinduism, for instance, which has about a billion practitioners.
Well the American flag is higher and bigger so i guess there is your answer.
OlegR — Isn’t the conjoining of Americanism with Zionism — of expansive and inclusive modern Western democratic values with narrow ethno-religious nationalism — an oxymoron?
That’s for Americans to decide, i am an Israeli.
Well the Americans on this blog have decided – excluding the Israel-firsters. Now all we have to do is wake up the rest of the nation.
OlegR,
It is perfectly within your intellectual capacity to judge, in a rational way, whether Americanism and Zionism are incompatible ideologies and belief systems. Really, this is a no-brainer: Americanism is grounded on principled opposition to ethnic and religious nationalism. America is the nation of all its citizens from all ethnic and religious groups.
By the way, if you are having any problems posting on MW, feel free to post your thoughts here:
link to friendfeed.com
“That’s for Americans to decide, i am an Israeli.”
Yes, sir, there’s no-one like a guy with experience under communism and the Zionist regime Palestine to lecture us on civics.
Given the history of the United States, this comes off as an astonishingly ignorant question. City on a hill, meet Jerusalem. Jerusalem, meet city on a hill.
“City on a hill, meet Jerusalem. Jerusalem, meet city on a hill.”
For Christians, not Americans.
Newclench,
You wrote:
“Given the history of the United States, this comes off as an astonishingly ignorant question. City on a hill, meet Jerusalem. Jerusalem, meet city on a hill.”
Are you referring to this question?
“OlegR — Isn’t the conjoining of Americanism with Zionism — of expansive and inclusive modern Western democratic values with narrow ethno-religious nationalism — an oxymoron?”
If this question is “ignorant,” then why can’t a single pro-Israel activist anywhere come forward and discuss it in an informed and rational way?
Ethno-religious nationalism is radically at odds with the core values of the European Enlightenment, modern Western democracies and American culture — which, I repeat, are TRANS-ethnic and TRANS-religious. Americanism is not organized around any particular ethnic group or religion.
The closest American analogue to Zionism is the Confederacy, which was soundly defeated in the bloodiest war in American history. Neo-Confederates (including Christian Zionists) rank among Israel’s most enthusiastic supporters in the United States. Many of them have expressed racist sentiments against Barack Obama (consistent with their support of the institution of slavery in the 19th century) and have threatened to instigate a second Civil War. The Israeli government and the Israel lobby have provided maximum encouragement to these anti-American cultural and political trends in the United States.
“Which one was I suppose to be looking at when I worshiped? Which one deserved our allegiance?”
I’m no Torah scholar, but if that quaint business about not making an idol for yourself, bowing down to it, or worshiping it means anything at all, I’m pretty sure the correct answer is “none of the above.”
This modern crop of Jews (and Catholics, and Protestants) makes one nostalgic for the Hebrews of 66, who launched the Great Revolt after Caligula demanded they profane their Temple with an idol of the state.
Now their spiritual heirs don’t even wait to be asked. Pretty lame if you ask me.
Is that so different from those Zionists who have pledged their allegiance to Israel yet take an oath of office to support the Constitution of the United States?
since both religion and nationalism are opiates of the masses, with an israeli flag and an american flag hanging inside that synagogue, attendees gets a double dose of opium, the antidote to which is being intellectually curious as well as having an assortment of relatives & friends who are sceptical about religion &/or nationalism to set one straight.
Earlier this year at Ben-Gurion airport, while boarding a flight to Poland, I noticed that the ticketing agent — an Israeli Jew — was wearing a pin on his tie. The pin was of the U.S. and Israeli flags.
Israel is really pushing that ‘shared values’ nonsense.
Avi_G,
The Congressional Research Service in their Flag Code report for the Senate wrote the following and referenced footnote 48, which follows this:
Footnore 48
I linked to this doc above.
The American flag always takes the higher order in height and display. This was true at the conservative shuls where it is flown or stands on a bimah (podium) I have attended and visited, that is to its own right or marching right. I think orthodox shuls have them though I have been to many with no flags. At the labor zionist youth camp I went to the American flag always was raised first, as is proper.
The German singing choir near my old house had the same arrangement as does, if memory serves, the Japan Society, reflective of “their” flags.
Phil there is a point where this type of gotcha becomes know-nothingist.
The only places in America I remember seeing Irish flags flying are outside private homes, pubs, and Irish-associated shops. Never a school. Never a church.
The Catholic church I went to as a child — and the associated parochial school which I attended — belonged to what historically had been a German-American parish. I do not remember seeing a German or any other foreign flag flying in or outside either the church or the school.
I recently watched the 1939 Warner Brothers movie Confessions of a Nazi Spy. I believe the audience was expected to find shocking the prominent display of the Nazi flag by Bundists.
Come to think of it, the Islamic Center of Washington DC has the flags of Muslim countries around it, properly displayed with (again as I remember) the US flag.
If someone posted that implying universal disloyalty people here would properly call that nativism and phobia.
And it matters not one bit the human rights records of any of those countries as to whether the Center can dispaly them (properly) nor does it impugn any individual Muslim who worships there.
No loyal American can be an Israel or a Pakistan firster. Any loyal American can be an Israel or Pakistan or Mexico seconder.
Tokyobk – You’re struggling. The vast and overwhelming majority of mosques, Islamic centers, and Islamic schools have no flags of foreign nations flying before them. Why? Because most Muslims in America implicitly and explicitly accept a separation of church and state and would not dream of confusing their religious commitments with their patriotic loyalties. I only wish all faiths shared this sensibility. Luckily, most do.
The Islamic Center of DC was build under the direction of, and is presently administered by, “a board of directors that comprises of all the ambassadors from Islamic Countries accredited to the United States of America” and is located on Embassy Row, thus the flags of all the Islamic countries has some distinct meaning in this instance.
link to theislamiccenter.com
Again, tbk, if you are going to claim that the Jewish Day School in Great Neck, NY was built under the auspices of the state of Israel and is administered by same, then your analogy with the Islamic Center is apt, but I don’t think that is the case.
‘Any loyal American can be an Israel or Pakistan or Mexico seconder.’
I second that. But this is a bit disingenuous. The Pakistani and Mexican (or Irish or Italian) seconders come from those countries and their ties last only a generation.
“Nationalism of one kind or another was the cause of most of the genocide of the twentieth century. Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people’s minds and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead.”
― Arundhati Roy
The answer for me is to say, screw the flags, let’s stop worshipping flags and nationalism and start embracing humanity.
The link below contains the following passage
I’ll confess it, at least: like thousands of other typical Jewish kids of my generation, I was reared as a Jewish nationalist, even a quasi-separatist. Every summer for two months for 10 formative years during my childhood and adolescence I attended Jewish summer camp. There, each morning, I saluted a foreign flag, dressed in a uniform reflecting its colors, sang a foreign national anthem, learned a foreign language, learned foreign folk songs and dances, and was taught that Israel was the true homeland. Emigration to Israel was considered the highest virtue, and, like many other Jewish teens of my generation, I spent two summers working in Israel on a collective farm while I contemplated that possibility. More tacitly and subconsciously, I was taught the superiority of my people to the gentiles who had oppressed us. We were taught to view non-Jews as untrustworthy outsiders, people from whom sudden gusts of hatred might be anticipated, people less sensitive, intelligent, and moral than ourselves. We were also taught that the lesson of our dark history is that we could rely on no one.
… it must be admitted that the essence of the process of my nationalist training was to inculcate the belief that the primary division in the world was between “us” and “them.”
link to cis.org
Many a mainline pastor has battled with conservative factions in the congregation to get the flags — American and “Christian” (Salvation Army) — out of the sanctuary, or at least as far away from the pulpit as possible. Lutherans have one of the better track records of succeeding — the history of German churches’ complicity in Nazi worship has helped American Lutherans keep worship of American nationalism out of their sanctuaries.