Haaretz reports on a meeting that took place last night on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly between Mahmoud Abbas and leaders of the American Jewish community. According to their report several Jewish leaders, including Malcolm Hoenlein, refused to attend the meeting following orders a request from Netanyahu’s office. Luckily, Alan Derhowitz came to the rescue:
Harvard jurist and well-known Israel advocate Professor Alan Dershowitz has secured Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ agreement to a settlement freeze formula that he hopes will break the diplomatic stalemate and lead to a resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
According to Dershowitz and other participants in a Monday night meeting with Abbas in New York, the Palestinian president also promised to make “a positive statement” about the connection between Israel and the Jewish people during his Thursday address to the United Nations General Assembly.
Sources at the meeting also revealed that Abbas has assured U.S. President Obama’s Administration that he would not press for a General Assembly vote on the Palestinian request for non-state recognition before the upcoming November 6 presidential elections.
They also said that Abbas had asked Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to stop referring to “wiping Israel off the map” and to replace that incendiary formulation with a call to “put Palestine on the map” instead.
Emerging from the meeting, Dershowitz told Haaretz last night that he came away from his discussion with Abbas convinced that “if Abbas and Bibi Netanyahu sit down and have serious talks, they will find their positions much closer than is widely believed.” Former U.S. Congressman Robert Wexler, who is president of the S. Daniel Center for Middle East Peace and who also took part in the New York meeting, agreed with Dershowitz and said that participants in the meeting came away with the impression that “the actual differences on core issues are not that great, they are not insurmountable.”
In the meeting, Dershowitz secured Abbas’ confirmation in writing to a sequential resumption of talks that may come to be known as the “Dershowitz Formula”, first published by the famed Harvard jurist in a June 3, 2012 article in the Wall Street Journal. The formula states that “Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu should now offer a conditional freeze: Israel will stop all settlement building in the West Bank as soon as the Palestinian Authority sits down at the bargaining table, and the freeze will continue as long as the talks continue in good faith.”
Ilene Cohen writes “the article would more at home in The Onion.” The best part comes after the excerpt above:
Dershowitz, who said that he views himself as someone who can serve as “an honest broker” between Israel and the Palestinians . . .
We’ll let The Onion, or Haaretz, take it from there.
Abbas remains on the US payroll. A requirement of whoever holds that job requires that he or she appear to be a representative of Palestinians without representing any such interests that interfere with those of the US.
@ Les
Well it’s not much of a US payroll considering that Palestine has to keep going to some Arab states for 100 million in aid or loans to hold thing together in Palestine. The US didn’t step in and give them any emergency money did they?
No they didn’t.
And Abbas is also in the position of having to go hat in hand to the Israelis to even get Palestine’s money, Palestine’s own tax money that Israel withholds and controls. And then what is really sickening…when Israel finally releases some of the tax money ‘owed’ to Palestine they tout to the world ”they giving economic aid to Palestine”….it’s enough to make you vomit.
Is Abbas even more distasteful than Bibi? I think he might be. The so called Palestinian leaders are a total joke.
Surely Abbas is not so dumb that he can’t see the glaring bad faith built into the Dersh-bag’s proposal… It doesnt’ take a genius to see the loopholes in israel’s “promise” (and when has a israeli promise meant anything? if an israeli says the sky is blue, you’d be better or checking for yourself.) — such as defining “buidling activity” and the fact taht Arab East “Jerusalem” is not included. Further, how much do you want to bet that the zionist entity will take it upon themselves to defeine whether the Palestinians are acting in “good faith” whenever it is convenient for them.
My advice to Abbas: Never trust an israeli or one if its supporters. Not any of them, not over anything. ALWAYS assume that they are trying to screw you over because chances are, they are. ALWAYS require conditions to be objective.
@ woody
I am pretty sure Abbas knows that.
I would hope so, but, frankly, if there is truth to the story, I can’t see it in action.
I would hope so, but, frankly, if there is truth to the story, I can’t see it in action.
I don’t think that the status quo can last for more than a matter of months.
The PA can either deliver on its promises to pursue statehood and claims against Israel in the ICJ and ICC after November 6, or they’ll be finished and Palestine will become a dependent territory of Israel. The customary rights and duties of statehood itself are incompatible with the terms of the lapsed Oslo interim agreements.
The Palestinian public barely tolerated the last round of negotiations in Amman over the exchange of border and security proposals. Netanyahu’s only incentive to restart those talks would be to obtain concessions from the PA. I haven’t seen any evidence of popular support or any calls from the Palestinian grassroots to offer any more concessions. If Netanyahu doesn’t act on the Levy Commission report, one of his successors surely will. The only strategy that will work against the creeping annexation in the short term is the statehood bid, and it’s shelf life has almost expired.
Of course Abbas knows. But he is paid to pretend that he doesn’t. Two decades of the Oslo process has so corrupted the PA leadership that they can do little else but serve as Israel’s prison wardens.
Imperialism is an extremely potent force in the world. Often overlooked, but always present, the US can afford to give tens and hundreds of million dollars to individual leaders of national liberation movements in exchange for their cooperation.
Of course Abbas knows. But he is paid to pretend that he doesn’t. . . . the PA leadership that they can do little else but serve as Israel’s prison wardens.
The PA leadership asked that the Israeli leadership be indicted and prosecuted in an international criminal court. They got sandbagged by the leaders of the so-called Palestinian Solidarity movement. Do you ever wonder if someone paid them off too?
I am curious here. What did ISM do to thwart that ICC case?
What did ISM do to thwart that ICC case?
I said the leaders of the so-called Palestinian Solidarity Movement.
Ali Abunimah and Omar Barghouti wrote editorials in unabashed opposition to the UN statehood bid, claiming that Palestine was a non-existent state and that the move would somehow change the role played by the PLO with respect to Palestinian refugees. The Prosecutor and the President of the ICC both gave statements to the press saying that either UN membership or an upgrade in Palestine’s observer status would permit an investigation of the situation in Palestine since 2002 to go forward. To say the least, it didn’t look like the movement’s words matched it deeds when it came down to actually pursuing the rights of the victims of the on-going siege of Gaza under international law and stopping the tenders to build thousands of new housing units in the occupied territories by the easiest means available.
While all that was going on, Israel and its supporters, like former Ambassador Dore Gold, were submitting legal briefs to the Court which also relied upon the usual argument that Israel can do as it pleases, because Palestine is not a state. This, despite the fact that Palestine had already been recognized as an occupied state by more than 130 other countries.
Thanks Hostage, you are one honest man. You were referring to Ali Abunimah and Omar Barghouti’s opposition to the UN statehood bid. They were not involved in the ICC decision. I happen to disagree with some of their stands here because I agree with with you that pursuing some of these international “legal” things might prove beneficial to the Palestinian cause (this is for political reason, not legal ones). One has to be a real fool to think that international law means much. We should all know that international law is what the US says it is even if there are times it comes into play. The US destruction of that ship in Nicaragua in the 1980′s is a good case in point. The Nicaraguans won in court!! It means absolutely dog shit. The US is the world’s hyper power and international law is what we say it is.
> The US destruction of that ship in Nicaragua in the 1980′s is a good case in point.
There were no “international” criminal courts during that era. The Rome Statute is not retroactive in effect. So the ICC can only prosecute individuals for crimes committed after its Statute entered into effect in 2002. The Court represented enough of a threat that the US ran around negotiating bilateral “Article 98″ agreements on immunity and conditioning its foreign military assistance on the basis of obtaining one from each prospective state. But that tactic weakened their enforceability. Using coercion to obtain them and using threats of force against the ICC itself violates the law of treaties. Any agreement concluded under those conditions is recognized as being null and void from the outset.
We should all know that international law is what the US says it is even if there are times it comes into play.
That is true of the old consensual system of international civil-law and arbitration. But it doesn’t apply so much to the international criminal justice system. That’s especially true of former leaders like Tony Blair and George Bush. I have no doubt that they’ll be at risk for prosecution any time that they are traveling abroad for the rest of their days.
P.S. I think Ali Abunimah and Omar Barghouti are among “the good guys”, but that they have let the debate and tactics regarding 1ss vs 2ss obscure the primary objective of prosecuting the responsible Israeli officials for the most serious crimes in any which way that we can;-) There’s no doubt in my mind that they mean well. I was just being sarcastic.
Take note of how many comments will criticize Abbas simply for sitting down at negotiations. Just imagine the reaction if he actually compromised on maximalist demands and agreed to peace.
They will criticize Abbas (and rightly so) for agreeing to a proposal that is so clearly not in good faith by the israelis and their supporters that any child should be able to see it.
What kind of fool, in this day and age, trusts that the israeli state is not going to stab him in the back at the first opportunity, for no provocation at all and will then blame the dead for the death??? How brain dead does one need to be to believe that the israeli state will negotiate in good faith?
>> Take note of how many comments will criticize Abbas simply for sitting down at negotiations.
Zio-supremacist definition of “negotiations”: Give us what we want, or we will take it from you. Abbas gave them something – including ["Remember the] Holocaust[!"™] obeisance…
…and, in return, he got nothing. (A conditional halt on illegal and immoral colonization of Palestinian land does not constitute a fair exchange in a “negotation”.)
>> Just imagine the reaction if he actually compromised on maximalist demands and agreed to peace.
Just imagine the Zio-supremacist reaction if Israel agreed, at a minimum, to unconditionally:
- halt its 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder;
- withdraw from all territories it occupies outside Partition borders;
- honour a partial RoR w/ compensation in lieu; and
- accept accountability for crimes commited.
“withdraw from all territories it occupies outside Partition borders;”
Slow down, please. By invading the rest of the territory before a Partition (as opposed to an AG partition recommendation) was declared, and before obtaining the compulsory agreement from the counterpart, thereby pre-empting the counterpart’s refusal, the Zionist entity effectively pre-empted that Partition itself!
Therefore there are no legitimate “Israeli borders” at all. The ex post facto “recognitions” by different Imperialist powers do not clean away the total illegality.
What you wanted to say was “withdraw from the armistice borders in the ongoing war of aggression of the Zionist entity against the local population”.
Do you think these murderers would be so crazy about “delegitimization” if they had even a milligram of legitimity?
>> What you wanted to say was “withdraw from the armistice borders in the ongoing war of aggression of the Zionist entity against the local population”.
Nope, what I wanted to say is exactly what I said: “Just imagine the Zio-supremacist reaction if Israel agreed, at a minimum, to unconditionally … withdraw from all territories it occupies outside Partition borders …”
And what the heck is a “maximalist” demand, Nut?
Is for instance the demand for a “homeland” for an invader on other people’s land “minimalist”?
It seems that your Zionist use (I insist) for Zionist propaganda words like “maximalist” is that of “any reasonable demand from a counterpart that has absolutely no rights and no standing, only the illegal use of force and conquest”.
This said, Abbas is an Israeli collaborator and it would be foolish to expect him not to do what his owners want.
This said, Abbas is an Israeli collaborator and it would be foolish to expect him not to do what his owners want”….sardelapasti
I don’t think you get the limitations Abbas is under..trapped by Isr’merica, not enough support from the Arab world, being bankrupt and trying to keep the basic elements of services and order together to prevent chaos and still go for a 2 state solution..
What is your agenda in trying to paint him as Israeli collaborator?
And what would you do different?
Let’s hear it ..put up or shut up.
“I don’t think you get the limitations Abbas is under”
Of course I do. The exact same limitations Pétain and Raynaud were under. It’s not for nothing that the generation before mine had established as a principle that compromising with the Nazi could be nothing but suicide.
Truly surprised that American does not believe that Abbas and his henchmen are “collaborators” , in particular, that dreadful Ereket, with his Israeli and US masters. Firstly Abbas and his crew’s reign of power ended years ago when his term for President expired. He tried to overthrow the Hamas in the territories after losing the the first freely held election in the Palestinian territories losing badly and then charging Hamad with aggression.. He is in power only by fiat and Israeli/US acquiesense. His para military police force is armed , trained , guided by Israeli/US security agencies. Jordan also plays a role in this. US General Dayton has been in charge. He secretly sided with and encouraged Israel to destroy Hamas before the outset of “Operation Cast Lead”. the massacre of Gaza and his fellow Palestinian brothers and sisters and children. He supports the Israeli/Egyptian blockade and sealing of Gaza which has made life so unbearable for his Palestinian “citizens”. His “Police” inhibit dissent, torture, arrest, imprison any criics of his gang, Fateh and/or anyone Israeli/US operatives order him to. He and his faction of Fateh secretly “collaborates” with Israeli operatives in their extra judicial assassination program against Palestinians. The release of “The Palestine Papers” by ,I believe, wikileakes, documents much of this.
“Collaborator” I would think is a mild term fo Abbas and his cohorts. He was one of the original backers of The Oslo agreement which has led precicely to the situation we have now, slow but steady confiscation of Palestinian land, more and more settlements and Israeli expansion in Palestine. The late Edward Said predicted this when he resigned from the Palestinian National Congress which under Arafat/Abbas put the Palestinian people under the Zioinist boot.
Yet Abbas illegally coninues as “President” of “Palestine” . With no shame he tours capitals of the world , mingles with his interlockers ,Israeli/US imperialism, Arab dictators. A ” President” with no power, the only condition he is under , to foster the impression the there is a “Palestinian” govt. to enable Israel to refute the obvious truth of their destruction of Palestinian society and making their land one giant open air prison.
“Collaborator ” is a mild term, traitor, war crimial is justified. HIs tiptoing and pandering before US Jewish , Zionist, communities every time he visits the west or Europe, South America, is mothing new. He speaks more about the Jewish holocaust then about his own peoples on going Holocaust. Yes he rides around the west bank with his Israeli approved limousine, pass, bypassing the checkpoints that his oppressed people have to go through every day. He has a mansion next to a 65 year old refugee camp, he eats well, doesn’t miss a meal, plenty of water for him and his family while his people have neither. But most oif all they have no freedom under this quisling. When one speaks of Abbas, the word SHAME must be used.
PS to American:
“What is your agenda in trying to paint him as Israeli collaborator?”
No painting needed. That’s just fact. It’s enough to even read his official job description.
“And what would you do different?”
How about not being Israelian police and spies, letting the Zionists shoulder the full, unmitigated responsibility of the occupation? Nobody in his right mind would ask these people to join the resistance but they could stay at home instead of working for the Zionist entity. It’s because of them that some naive souls pretend to believe there is a ‘”peace process” instead of an ethnic cleansing program.
right on.
sardelapasti I can provide a translation.
When zionuts say something like “maximalist demands” what they really mean is everything the Palestinians are entitles to under international law ie. full withdrawal of Israel to pre-1967 lines including East Jerusalem with absolute & complete autonomy for a Palestinian state, and full right of return for 100% of refugees.
Zionuts also like to characterise Israel taking much more than they’re entitled to under international law as a “generous compromise”.
You can see their whole schtick is one large smelly bucket of steaming BS.
Sumud says: sardelapasti I can provide a translation.
Close. For the record, International Law has not elevated the Palestinians claim to East Jerusalem to actual sovereignty, possession or anything other than the competing claim that it is. And it certainly does not guarantee the so called RoR.
So yes, a maximalist demand would be any of the well known deal breakers which include the full RoR and the entirety of East Jerusalem. But everything is relative of course, those examples only apply to the Fatah crew. An example of Hamas maximalist demand would be Israel ceasing to exist.
“International Law has not elevated the Palestinians claim to East Jerusalem to actual sovereignty, possession or anything other than the competing claim that it is. And it certainly does not guarantee the so called RoR.”
Both are fully supported by the Charter of the UN. There are no “competing claims”, by the way, the “right of conquest” being equal to mere piracy since the Trety of Westphalia. And decisions by some members do not cancel the Charter.
“maximalist demand would be Israel ceasing to exist.”
In point of fact, it is a perfectly legitimate demand. No racial or religious supremacist state can be legitimately established in our days, and certainly not on other people’s territory.
As if you Propaganda-Abteilung robots didn’t know.
Both are fully supported by the Charter of the UN. There are no “competing claims”, by the way, the “right of conquest” being equal to mere piracy since the Trety of Westphalia. And decisions by some members do not cancel the Charter.
The Ottoman Empire officially recognized the Sephardic community of Jerusalem and granted them autonomy under their chief rabbi, the Hakam Bashi. They were indigenous and inhabited the Jewish Quarter of the Old City. If the League of Nations mandate didn’t do anything else, it certainly did recognize the Jewish and non-Jewish communities of Palestine as subjects of international law.
Ernest Gross, a Legal Counsel at the US State Department, wrote an advisory opinion which explained that in the absence of the mandatory or other administration, the law of nations recognized the inherent right of the people of those communities to organize a state and operate government in the areas that they inhabited. link to digicoll.library.wisc.edu
So there are some competing equitable claims that aren’t based on conquest.
sardelapasti says: As if you Propaganda-Abteilung robots didn’t know
=============================================
The UN Charter does no such thing, which is a claim the not even the Palestinians make. The vast majority of RoR claims are based on UNGA 194. And yes, the Israelis do claim East Jerusalem, where have you been the past few decades?
he said “competing claims” mnut, israel’s claim is illegal and they are the only ones who recognize it. that’s not considered a competing claim at the UN, it’s called theft and illegal annexation.
he said “competing claims” mnut, israel’s claim is illegal and they are the only ones who recognize it.
The unilateral annexation of Jerusalem was null and void and a flagrant violation of international law. But simply pursuing claims to the Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem has never been illegal. The UN General Assembly is partial to the idea that East Jerusalem will be the capital of Palestine. The Security Council has adopted the Quartet Road Map, which holds that Jerusalem is a final status issue that can only be established through negotiations.
Annie Robbins says:he said “competing claims” mnut, israel’s claim is illegal
=============================
Israel’s claim to East Jerusalem does not rest on the fact that they have possession. If Israel were to abandon East Jerusalem to the UN they would still make claim to the city just as the Palestinians have. You may choose to view the annexation illegal but there is nothing illegal about a claim.
Assuming that neither party intended to share, the question would then be who has the superior claim, the merits of dividing the city, history, etc…
The Palestinians do not have a superior claim, certainly not sufficient to justify dividing the city.
mondonut, acquisition of territory by military conquest is illegal under international law.
Annie Robbins says: mondonut, acquisition of territory by military conquest is illegal under international law.
================================
You are confusing acquisition of territory with claim to territory. Israel claims the entirety of Jerusalem, and it is not “illegal” to do so. And their claim to Jerusalem is not negated by their possession Jerusalem, illegal or otherwise.
i’m not confused. not one nation state on earth recognizes israel ‘claim’ as legitimate, not one. that is why they do not have their embassies their. it’s illegal under international law. good bye i willnot be discussing this further today, it’s a highjack.
The Palestinians do not have a superior claim, certainly not sufficient to justify dividing the city.
In fact they do have a superior claim to the area of the Western Wall and their Al-Haram al-Sharif in Jerusalem. Article 13 of the Palestine Mandate guaranteed their “existing rights” and “immunity” – which was always a reflection of their inherent sovereignty there.
The British government and Allied Powers made several declarations and entered into agreements with the Muslim inhabitants of its India colony, the Sharif of Mecca; the Gulf region Arab Sheikhs, and the Muslim notables of Egypt and the Sudan regarding the absolute immunity of the Muslim Holy Sites and Waqfs of Ottoman Asia in order to undermine attempts by the Ottoman Caliphate to declare a Holy War against them.
*The 3rd paragraph of the Sykes-Picot Agreement required the Allies to consult with the Sharif of Mecca on the form of government in the brown area of international administration in Palestine.
*The Muslim Holy Places in Hebron and Jerusalem had been completely excluded from the territory of the brown, “International Enclave”, shown on the map attached to the Sykes-Picot Agreement in accordance with the Government of India’s Proclamation No. 4 to the Arab and Indian Sheikhs and the Sharif of Mecca. The remainder of Palestine was included in the area pledged for Arab Independence. See for example paragraph 4 (c) on pp 4 (pdf page 5) and paragraph 6 (a), (d), & (e) on pp 8-9 (pdf page 9-10) CAB 24/72, “The Settlement of Turkey and the Arabian Peninsula” (Former Reference: GT 6506) , 21 November 1918 and the collection of small and large detailed maps of Palestine in CAB 24/72 “Maps illustrating the Settlement of Turkey and the Arabian Peninsula”, (Former Reference: GT 6506A) 21 November 1918.
Former Reference: GT 6506A
Title: Maps illustrating the Settlement of Turkey and the Arabian Peninsula.
Author: Political Intelligence Department, Foreign Office
Date 21 November 1918
Catalogue reference CAB 24/72
link to nationalarchives.gov.uk
Former Reference: GT 6506
Title: The Settlement of Turkey and the Arablan Peninsula.
Author: Political Intelligence Department, Foreign Office
Date 21 November 1918
Catalogue reference CAB 24/72
link to nationalarchives.gov.uk
The boundaries of Palestine were established in an “Aide-memoire in regard to the occupation of Syria, Palestine and Mesopotamia pending the decision in regard to Mandates, 13 September 1919″. It was handed by Mr. Lloyd George to M. Clemenceau and placed before the Versailles Peace Conference. It divided the territory between the British, French, and Arab administered OETAs on the basis of the principles of the Sykes-Picot agreement and the Sykes-Picot lines. The Sykes-Picot agreement granted the Sharif of Mecca a special position in determining the form of government in Palestine and excluded the Muslim holy places from zone of the international condominium. The memo is available in the FRUS and in J. C. Hurewitz collection.
The “existing rights” of the Muslim community and the immunity of their Holy Places and wafqs were preserved by the San Remo resolution; Article 13 of the Palestine Mandate; and an entire Chapter of the UN Partition Plan.
*San Remo Resolution link to cfr.org
*Art. 13, Palestine Mandate link to avalon.law.yale.edu
* Resolution 181(II) Part II, C. Declaration, Chapter 1 and Part III C. Jerusalem, Statute of the City, Freedoms of citizens. link to yale.edu
The government of Jordan called the ICJ’s attention to the fact that the Commission appointed by the Council of the League of Nations had determined that the Wailing Wall and pavement in front of it were constituted a Muslim Waqf by Afdal, the son of Saladin, in about the year 1193 A.D. and were under the sole proprietorship of the Supreme Muslim Council of Palestine. King Abdullah appointed a Palestinian citizen of Jordan to the position of Grand Mufti, Hussam al-Din Jarallah. He had served on the Supreme Council throughout the Mandate era. In fact he had received more votes than Al-Hajj Amin al-Husayni in the election to the post of Grand Mufti, but British High Commissioner Herbert Samuel had intervened and overturned the results of the election.
*See (3) The Ownership of the Wall and of its Surroundings
link to unispal.un.org
The ICJ noted that both the Mandate and an entire Chapter of resolution 181(II) contained safeguarding clauses which preserved the existing rights of the Muslims over their Holy Places, i.e. “Existing rights in respect of Holy Places and religious buildings or sites shall not be denied or impaired.” See paragraph 129 of the Wall case advisory opinion. link to icj-cij.org
i’m not confused. not one nation state on earth recognizes israel ‘claim’ as legitimate, not one.
The Geneva Conventions and resolution 242 only prohibit belligerent claims, not claims based upon the right of self-determination by the lawful inhabitants of the Muslim Quarter, Christian Quarter, Jewish Quarter and Armenian Quarter of the Old City. Resolution 181(II) required the UN to conduct a plebiscite to determine the status of Jerusalem within ten years. So it should have been up to the inhabitants of the communities to determine their collective or individual political status.
American – “The Ottoman Empire officially recognized the Sephardic community of Jerusalem and granted them autonomy under their chief rabbi, the Hakam Bashi. They were indigenous and inhabited the Jewish Quarter of the Old City. If the League of Nations mandate didn’t do anything else, it certainly did recognize the Jewish and non-Jewish communities of Palestine as subjects of international law.”
1. The Ottoman Empire organized all its different ethnies on a religious basis, not only the Jews. The Haham Bashi (who was in Balat in Constantinople, not in Jerusalem), was responsible for the Jews qua religious grouping, not as nationality; exactly like the Patriarch of Constantinople for all the Greek orthodox and Serbs, the Italian Archbishop (and sometimes the French Government) for all Catholics including the Catholic minorities of the Greek and Armenians, the Armenian Katholikos for all Eastern Rite Armenians, etc. etc. Most disadvantaged were the national minorities that happened to be Moslem, given that their “ethnarch” was automatically the Khaliph himself, i.e. the Sultan.
With the end of the Ottoman Empire the religious community organizations were relegated to history for all. What’s the idea, “recognizing a right to organize a nation” for all the 107 nationalities listed in the Ottoman census? Or only for each single one of the many non-Moslem religions?
That “Law of nations” as you present it is nothing but stark naked Zionist propaganda. It is selectively used, anachronistic and in obvious violation of the Charter of the UN concerning colonized populations.
Also, as soon as one realizes that all religious groupings in the empire were under the same conditions, it immediately exposes the hypocrisy of the ridiculous concept of a “Jewish” nationality –instead of a religious belonging that can be rescinded as soon as the belied is lost.
2. The Jerusalem Jews were not mainly Sefardí, ie Spanish-speaking; there was a larger proportion of Arab Jews and a lot of Yiddish-speaking East-Europeans.
4. The Ottomans were occupiers, not part of the local Palestinian population (which at theat time included some 6% of local Jews.) It was not up to the Ottomans or to some committee or to Mister Ernest Gross from the other end of the world to decide anything –as it was no business of the English either. The League of Nations had no business dictating the preferences of some Western lawyers, mostly paid by the Zionists, in the Syrians’ and Palestinians’ decisions about themselves. Also note that the local Jews were fully part of the local Palestinian population and in their majority strenuously opposed Zionism. In fact, several of them, including their Rabbis, were repeatedly battered by the Zionist colonizers and many fled to the West, chased by the makers of the Jewish Empire (ad maiorem Britanniae gloriam.)
“The UN Charter does no such thing, ”
Well, it cancels all claims based on right of conquest.
It also forbids expelling people from their land and occupying it.
The Zionist entity may claim the whole world, but it’s not even worth hearing, as it is nothing else than a band of armed, totally foreign invaders settled on other people’s land by the colonial powers, also an illegal act under the UN Charter, without express authorization by the owners of the land (and their issue too, whose citizenship will remain undecided until a legitimate Palestinian government rules on it.)
Sorry, I meant “Hostage”, not American…
1. The Ottoman Empire organized all its different ethnies on a religious basis, not only the Jews. The Haham Bashi (who was in Balat in Constantinople, not in Jerusalem), was responsible for the Jews qua religious grouping, not as nationality;
Clarification: The Sultan issued an irade (decree) which established the office and order of the Hakam Bashi of Palestine. The first to serve in that capacity was Ḥayyim Abraham Gagin, the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem. See the Jewish Encyclopedia entry. link to books.google.com
A simple reading of “The Young Turks: Proclamation for the Ottoman Empire, 1908″ reveals that the Empire was comprised of many multinational countries with various religious confessions.
link to fordham.edu
The Ottomans most definitely did consider the Sephardim and Ashkenazim to be different religious confessions and different ethnic nationalities for official, legal purposes. The Jewish Encyclopedia entry reflects the fact that the Askenazim WERE NOT organized as a religious group under the Hakam Bashi.
Well, it cancels all claims based on right of conquest. . . . Sorry, I meant “Hostage”, not American…
No, as a matter of intertemporal law the UN Charter was not retroactive in effect and it did not immediately end the practice of colonialism either.
it is nothing else than a band of armed, totally foreign invaders settled on other people’s land by the colonial powers
Even the PLO Charter recognizes that Jews were indigenous to Palestine before the mandate era or colonial era. I believe that all UN member states are required to recognize the Jewish property claims in East Jerusalem that were recorded with the UN Palestine Conciliation Commission in accordance with UN GA resolution 194(III). The UNRWA was still supporting about 17,000 displaced Jewish refugees from Palestine in its camps in Israel by 1950 . See the information under the heading “First Encounters” — link to books.google.com
So the term “Palestine refugees” and the “right of return” or “compensation” have always applied to both the former Jewish and Arab inhabitants alike. The fact that Zionists acquired most of the territory by conquest does not in any way negate valid communal or individual claims based upon legal residency, citizenship, and property that was acquired legally. Dr. Mustafa al Khalidi served on the Appeals Court and Supreme Court of Palestine before he served as Mayor of Jerusalem. In mid-1935 he discussed the rights of naturalized Jewish immigrants with his deputy (and future Mayor) Daniel Oster (aka Auster):
Also note that the local Jews were fully part of the local Palestinian population and in their majority strenuously opposed Zionism.
No they were officially recognized as their own millet – in western treaty parlance, they were a “community”. FYI, Walter Laqueur noted that “Among the Irgun and the Stern Gang there were many youngsters from the Oriental Jewish community, which was not widely represented in the non-terrorist Hagana.” See A history of terrorism, Transaction Publishers, 1977, page 122 link to books.google.com
One area of the Hagana where they were over-represented was in the Palmach’s corps of assassins. Jewish undercover units, called “The Arabists of the Palmach” or Mista’arvim [literally, "Arab-pretenders"], are known to have been in operation in Palestine and neighboring Arab countries as early as 1942. — See Targeting To Kill: Israel’s Undercover Units, Elia Zureik and Anita Vitullo, The Palestine Human Rights Information Center (PHRIC)
*link to thejerusalemfund.org
*link to palmach.org.il
and Zvika Dror, The ’Arabists’ of the Palmach (Hakibbutz Hameuchad Publishing House, 1986)
“Communities” is a legal term of art for the entities that were provisionally recognized in minority treaties and the Covenant of the League of Nations. There was never a political movement to establish a “Jewish religious home in Palestine”, only the movement to establish a “Jewish national home” there. Nations are not automatically independent nation-states, so the country of Palestine was a multinational one. Your attempt to dismiss the claims of autonomous Palestinian Jews to the Jewish quarter of the Old City is pretty transparent. The notion that the autonomous communities were entitled to fewer rights or that they vanished once they were emancipated is utter nonsense.
That “Law of nations” as you present it is nothing but stark naked Zionist propaganda. It is selectively used, anachronistic and in obvious violation of the Charter of the UN concerning colonized populations.
Ernest Gross was not a Zionist. The phrase “law of nations” simply means customary international law. FYI, the UN Charter, like any other treaty, had to conform to the law of nations, not vice versa. It has nothing to do with Zionism. The phrase appears in the text of the US Constitution and many other legal documents that pre-date the existence of a Zionist Organization.
What’s the idea, “recognizing a right to organize a nation” for all the 107 nationalities listed in the Ottoman census? Or only for each single one of the many non-Moslem religions?
The idea was that Jews, including many Palestinian-born Jews, were rolling barrel bombs down the streets of Arab villages and declaring their own war of independence. The Ottoman Empire participated in the Concert of Europe. The ICJ even quoted the applicability of the minorities clauses from the Treaty of Berlin (1878) to the people of Palestine in paragraph 129 of its advisory opinion on the Wall. So the League of Nations had the same treaty obligations to respect those “existing rights” of autonomy that the Young Turks acknowledged in 1906:
— link to fordham.edu
FYI, by the mid-19th century, the term Serphardi no longer had any bearing on the ability to speak Spanish. The Sephardic community of Palestine was officially recognized; had its own courts and schools; and collected its own communal and state taxes.
Hostage: The head rabbi in Palestine was subordinated to the one in Constantinople. As for the Eskenazi immigrants, possibly your exception only refers to Palestine. I sure would like more documentation than some encyclopedia, given personal knowledge of the contrary. The “Lehli” (=Ashkenazi) a very small minority, had in most cases no religious facilities of their own and mingled with the rest under the same religious authority.
The point remains that there is (even with separate communities in Palestine) no basis for “recognizing” some bogus right to a nation to each of the hundreds of coexisting different identities, and no basis but madness for declaring a religious grouping a nation.
Hostage: The head rabbi in Palestine was subordinated to the one in Constantinople.
Yes but the Ashkenazim refused to be governed by Sephardic officials and retained their foreign citizenship or became protégés of foreign consulates under the Ottoman system of Capitulations in most instances. You can read more about that from a variety of sources which devote considerable attention to the subject in connection with discussions about the legal status of American or other western Jews and Arab ex-patriots who took-up permanent residence in Palestine and Syria, e.g.:
*Ruth Kark, American Consuls in the Holy Land, 1832-1914, Wayne State University Press, 1994
*Leland J. Gordon, The Turkish American Controversy over Nationality, link to jstor.org
The legal structure of the various autonomous Jewish communities of the Ottoman Empire changed considerably over the course of several centuries. See for example Avigdor Levy, “The Structure of the Jewish Community”,
Chapter 3: The Jews of the Ottoman Empire, Darwin Press, Princeton, 1994, pp. 42-70. He explains that the Byzantine Jews, or Romaniots, and the Sephardic Jews of Istanbul were treated as separate legal communities. He explained that “Each group (edah, sing; edot, pl.) clung to its own ritual, traditions, customs, and legal practices. The last aspect was of primary importance, since each edah adhered to different legal practices, especially in matters of personal law.” Even after the two merged, he notes that:
Levy discusses those and many other religious rights that were granted to the various Jewish groups on the basis their nationality during the Ottoman era: link to coursesa.matrix.msu.edu
The Jewish Virtual Library explains that there were also small groups of resident Ashkenazim who originally pretended to be Sephardic in order to circumvent a ban against any Ashkenazim living in the City of Jerusalem. After the ban had lapsed, they retained their distinctive style of dress and customs. You can read more about that here. link to mondoweiss.net
So the Jews from other Ottoman countries, who readily accepted the authority of the Hakam Bashi, did not completely loose their national identities as Byzantine & etc. Jews and congregations. They retained distinctive names which indicated their ancestor’s country of origin.
The point remains that there is (even with separate communities in Palestine) no basis for “recognizing” some bogus right to a nation to each of the hundreds of coexisting different identities, and no basis but madness for declaring a religious grouping a nation.
The Jews were like every other ethnic minority community, they paid a tax for the privilege of self-government to the Ottoman authorities for hundreds of years and were officially recognized. The Mandate recognized their existing rights and facilitated immigration of Jews from other countries who became Palestinian citizens, purchased land, and etc. The UN Charter principle of self-determination of peoples does not apply to the Jewish diaspora, but it certainly did apply to the Jewish community, i.e. the Yishuv, as it had evolved in Palestine by 1948. That does not imply any privilege to violate the rights of others in order to establish territorial contiguity or to deny other groups the corresponding right to govern themselves and the natural resources of the territory that their communities inhabit.
The notion that Israeli Jews, descended from European Jews who arrived in Palestine in the 16th century, are still European colonists finds no logical or legal support in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Their communities have the right to determine their own political status and to self-determination. They have a right to a nationality, to leave and return to their own country or origin, & etc.
” FYI, by the mid-19th century, the term Serphardi no longer had any bearing on the ability to speak Spanish”
I can see that your only objective is to distort every word, take agreement as opposition, ignore what is being said as basis (and present some shitty lawyerly construct in lieu of right), clutch at straws, quite typical of all Zionists I have known.
The above-reported moronic invention, I imagine again by some sublime mind at the Propaganda-Abteilung, takes the cherry. If “sefardí” or “romaniote” doesn’t describe your mother tongue, what is it supposed to say? (Hint: it ain’t that ridiculous constructed language they call “modern Hebrew”)
Anyway, there is no room in the world for colonizers, aggressors and invented nationalist nonsense, and I was very wrong to imagine there is a sentient person at the other end.
“The notion that Israeli Jews, descended from European Jews who arrived in Palestine in the 16th century, are still European colonists finds no logical or legal support in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights” Well, duh. No one said they weren’t part of the Palestinian people and they have been battered and chased away by the Zionists. Plain enough.
“Their communities have the right to determine their own political status”
No, not as a minority commingled with the rest of the population.
“They have a right to a nationality,”
Certainly. Palestinian, like the rest.
I can see that your only objective is to distort every word, take agreement as opposition, ignore what is being said as basis (and present some shitty lawyerly construct in lieu of right), clutch at straws, quite typical of all Zionists I have known.
I can see that you no real knowledge of the subject of the structure of the Jewish community in Palestine before the first Aliya or the formal communal rights that the Jews enjoyed. I’m an anti-Zionist, but I don’t try to use bullshit and bombast to prove that there were no religious or secular Zionists whatever in Palestine before the era of Herzl.
If “sefardí” or “romaniote” doesn’t describe your mother tongue, what is it supposed to say? (Hint: it ain’t that ridiculous constructed language they call “modern Hebrew”)
Sephardim and Romaniotes had lived in Palestine for centuries and spoke Arabic. Zionists, like Arthur Ruppin, wrote that they were indistinguishable from their Arab neighbors. See The Picture in 1907: Address to the Jewish Colonization Society of Vienna — link to zionismontheweb.org
There is a multitude of people of “Hispanic” origin whose first or only language is English. “Hispanic” and “Sephardic” are functionally equivalent in the way they are employed to describe an ethnic group or ethnic characteristics.
Anyway, there is no room in the world for colonizers, aggressors and invented nationalist nonsense, and I was very wrong to imagine there is a sentient person at the other end.
You’re the one who can’t back-up your positions with either documentary sources or facts. I was simply pointing out some of the obvious discrepancies in your arguments.
Well, duh. No one said they weren’t part of the Palestinian people and they have been battered and chased away by the Zionists. Plain enough.
The fact remains that there were Jews living in the traditional Jewish Holy Cities of Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed and Tiberias before the first Aliyah who were not swept aside. Many of them, and many other Jews living in Ottoman Asia, became ardent Zionists. As I’ve pointed out in other comments, by the late 1930s and early 1940s some of them were active in both the left and right wing Zionist militia units that were notorious for acts of terror or black flag assassination operations that targeted their Arab brethren.
“Their communities have the right to determine their own political status”
No, not as a minority commingled with the rest of the population.
By definition, Jewish communities were comprised of a Jewish ethnic majority.
“They have a right to a nationality,” . . . . Certainly. Palestinian, like the rest.
That isn’t the way the legal principle of self-determination works. Liechtenstein, Malta, Monaco, San Marino, Singapore, and the Vatican do not share the same nationality as “the rest” of the people living nearby. The inhabitants of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem were entitled to the same right, i.e. to decide their own political status and nationality.
Could you give us some of your “knowledge to the contrary” or tell us about its origins? … I mean sardelapasti is already anonymous enough, isn’t it? Apart from what it suggests to me, as you may remember.
Were did you find Lehli, that means Poles in Turkish, doesn’t it?
P.S. I’ve noted elsewhere that the right of self-determination or the right of a State to exist does not imply that a State or people are entitled to commit, or are justified in committing unjust acts towards other States or other peoples in order to protect and preserve their existence. Unfortunately the Zionists resorted to threats and force in order to obtain their goals. They quite obviously demonstrated extreme prejudice to the position of the non-Jewish communities and violated the inherent rights of those communities.
“I’m an anti-Zionist, but I don’t try to use bullshit and bombast to prove that there were no religious or secular Zionists whatever in Palestine before the era of Herzl.”
You tried to use bullshit the other day to prove that the vast majority of Israeli children are being given an ultra-Orthodox education.
You tried to use bullshit the other day to prove that the vast majority of Israeli children are being given an ultra-Orthodox education.
As you’ll recall, I cited a Haaretz article. It’s hardly the only example of media reports in recent years about the boom in births among the ultra-Orthodox Jews of Israel and the impact on the education system.
“I can see that you no real knowledge of the subject of the structure of the Jewish community in Palestine before the first Aliya or the formal communal rights that the Jews enjoyed”
And why can’t you understand the word “irrelevant”?
Irrelevant to post-ottoman status (= area-based instead of religious) is the fact that they had -like any other religious community- some so-called autonomy under religious leaders. The ref to who the local rabbi reported to in Constantinople was strictly for indicating that the Ottoman status was no different than that of any other group. Formal communal rights under a colonial administration are irrelevant in a different world, anytime (and speculation on possible official Lebanization remains idle.)
Irrelevant to the acceptability of occupation and war of aggression is the date of the UN Charter, because these are universal since the Treaty of Westphalia… We are not talking about implementation here.
Irrelevant to the fact of some Palestinians of Jewish religion being battered and chased away by the Zionist invaders for their opposition to Zionism is the fact that some of them joined these invaders.
Now, your speculation on some kind of Vatican in the Old Quarter… That is certainly not something one can just request. It happens by turns and twists of history. It’s not as if every little neighborhood with some religious majority within the neighborhood had an automatic right to statehood or independence or autonomy. In fact there are only a couple cases. Perhaps a good idea to be considered when the Zionist entity comes down like the Papal States and requests a symbolic rump state, why not?
“Sephardim and Romaniotes had lived in Palestine for centuries and spoke Arabic. Zionists, like Arthur Ruppin, wrote that they were indistinguishable from their Arab neighbors.”
They spoke Arabic in the street, of course, and at home they spoke their own mother tongue. There weren’t more than a very few Romaniotes in Palestine anyway. The point, again, is that the origin name is indelibly tied to the mother tongue (or was, until the War and the rise of Zionism, but we are not discussing anything after that date anyway.) Or to the mother tongue of the parents-grandparents etc. So you may want to stop using these terms indiscriminately.
“As you’ll recall, I cited a Haaretz article. It’s hardly the only example of media reports in recent years about the boom in births among the ultra-Orthodox Jews of Israel and the impact on the education system.”
I don’t recall your claiming anything about an ultra orthodox baby boom. You claimed that a majority of children in Israel are given an ultra orthodox education.
Which is untrue.
And why can’t you understand the word “irrelevant”?
Irrelevant to post-ottoman status (= area-based instead of religious) is the fact that they had -like any other religious community- some so-called autonomy under religious leaders.
I’ve already explained why it was NOT irrelevant. The Ottoman Jewish communities had been officially recognized for centuries and they had been granted religious and legal rights on the basis of their nationalities. The official structure of the communities became increasingly consolidated over the course of a few centuries and included religious and secular organs. The material from the Jewish Encyclopedia and Avigdor Levy establishes that beyond any reasonable doubt. In addition, the notion that there was a common “Mizrahi” identity which included the native Karaites, Moghrabis, snd Sephardis was largely a reaction and result of the arrival of the Zionists.
You’re busy trying to rewrite both the applicable history and the applicable international law. You can’t do that in a selective way that allows Muslims or Christian communities to retain their treaty-based religious claims, while asking the Jewish communities to surrender their functionally equivalent claims.
Much of the Old City of Jerusalem is still claimed and controlled by the Muslim Wafq and land owning Churches. There is no basis in international law to disallow the similar pre-existing claims of the Jewish community. In fact, there is still religious control in many other areas under complex regulations that enforce the status quo antebellum that has governed the Holy Places in Jerusalem and elsewhere since the Treaty of Paris (1855) – as reaffirmed in the Treaty of Berlin (1878). That situation was described in the legal analysis of the ICJ (paragraph 129) in its 2004 advisory opinion.
The ref to who the local rabbi reported to in Constantinople was strictly for indicating that the Ottoman status was no different than that of any other group.
Not exactly, they were only considered Arabised, i.e. Al Arab al Musta’riba. They and the other Christian and Muslim communities each had official legal standing as Ottoman millets that could have led to individual statehood. I certainly agree that the rights of Jews living in Europe to immigrate to Palestine should have been suspended and terminated when the rights of other Westerners under the Capitulations were suspended and terminated. But by then, there already were established indigenous Jewish communities.
The other Arab communities you are talking about were self-governing too. That was no accident, the situation was the result of agreements that are still part of the applicable conventional international law on the subject. The basic organs of the local Arab governments were tribes, clans, notable families, and their communal religious courts. It’s a matter of public record that an Ottoman-era official memorandum, written in 1884 by a member of the Sultan’s entourage in the Yildiz Palace, Ahmed Hamdi, complained that between Aqaba in the south and the northern towns of Nablus and Salt there was a stretch of 800 hours travel distance where no single government employee was ever seen or heard from and which was entirely left to the local shaykhs (‘urban mesayihine terk olan)”. See the discussion on pages 53 & 54 of Johann Büssow, Hamidian Palestine: Politics and Society in the District of Jerusalem 1872-1908 link to books.google.com
By the late 19th and early 20th century, the Jewish Arabs were no different from the Muslim and Christian Arab communities in calling for decentralization of the functions of government. They wanted the Ottomans to give their own individual community organs more control and power. For that matter the Arabised Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews who participated in the Syrian and Palestinian Congresses only did so on the basis that their existing legal rights would continue to be guaranteed. The neighborhoods we are talking about were closed or cloistered quarters, gated communities, that unevenly divided the Old City of Jerusalem. Most activity went on inside courtyards behind gates that were closed at night. They frequently contained pockets of other religious minorities, but each had a predominate religious-ethnic character of its own.
The notion that Jerusalem can’t be partitioned between two or more countries that speak the same language or share the same culture is nonsense. You don’t have to look any farther than Rafah to find another example of that very thing. But there are other divided cities – including divided capitals like Rome and the Vatican – in other parts of the world. link to geography.about.com
About 1 in 6 members of the so-called Sephardic Community of Jerusalem during the 1880s were native Oriental Jews whose mother tongue was Arabic. In the four Holy cities, the shared languages of the native Jews, Sephardim, and Ashkenazim were Arabic and Hebrew, not Ladino or Yiddish. See Robert L. Cooper and Bernard Spolsky, The Languages of Jerusalem, Oxford University, 1991, page 49.
FYI, the Jews of Spain had been responsible for the renewed interest in Hebrew grammar. Much of their literature and that of the Oriental Jews, like Maimonides, was written in Arabic. See Nissim Rejwan, “Jews and Arabs: The Cultural Heritage”, The Israel Review of Arts and Letters, No. 105, Jerusalem, 1997. A copy is available online via the Israeli MFA. link to mfa.gov.il
The Jews of Syria, Palestine, and most of Mesopotamia were living within what many consider to be the ancient boundaries of Eretz Israel. The indigenous Jews of Jerusalem were obviously not part of the political movement to “return to Zion”, because they already lived there. But it’s a fact that some members of the notable families of the Sephardic Jewish community in Jerusalem stepped-in and served as purchasing agents for the colonial companies and colonial societies when the Ottoman central government prohibited land sales to foreign Jews or those who were not Ottoman subjects. See Salim Tamari, Ishaq al-Shami and the Predicament of the Arab Jew in Palestine, Jerusalem Quarterly, August 2004, pdf page 3 of 17. It’s interesting to note that, in their home in Hebron, Shami’s father spoke to him in Arabic, while his mother spoke to him in Ladino (see page 8 of 17). link to jerusalemquarterly.org
You claimed that a majority of children in Israel are given an ultra orthodox education.
Which is untrue.
No, I cited a Ha’aretz article by Sefi Rachlevsky. It was talking about the first grades of school and a new majority that’s being consolidated in the early grades, i.e. “The final moment before the liberal population leaves Israel: The moment the public comprehends the irreversible nature of the process, the outcome will be clear and enlightened population will leave Israel and move west, as was the case with Jerusalem.”
The author said:
— link to haaretz.com
The point, again, is that the origin name is indelibly tied to the mother tongue (or was, until the War and the rise of Zionism, but we are not discussing anything after that date anyway.) Or to the mother tongue of the parents-grandparents etc. So you may want to stop using these terms indiscriminately.
I’ve cited a number of reliable published sources which explain that the native Jewish Arabs, Romaniots, and Moghrabis from other Ottoman countries were under the legal jurisdiction of the leaders of the so-called “Sephardic” religious community and the Hakam Bashi of Palestine during the period we’re discussing. It wasn’t uncommon for members to have relatives in one or more of those groups.
Were did you find Lehli, that means Poles in Turkish, doesn’t it?
Although most Ashkenazis were not Ottoman subjects, there were small indigenous communities in the four holy cities who were citizens . They paid the taxes for military exemption & etc. through the official channels established by the various decrees. Elsewhere sardelapasti claims we are not discussing the mandate era. There is no question that many small communities, like the Jewish quarters of the holy cities, have opted for independence and been welcomed as members of the United Nations.
Many people who comment here act as if it would be out of the question for Gaza to evolve into a separate state, even though political entities a fraction of its size are full members of the UN Organization. There are many historical precedents from Latin American, Africa, and the Indian subcontinent which illustrate that decolonization frequently results in the establishment of more than just one or two states. So long as the inhabitants have a shared sense of belonging and aren’t dispossessing their neighbors, & etc. more micro-states are probably a good thing. Heaven knows we already have way too many super powers and large states based upon unwieldy coalitions.
“No, I cited a Ha’aretz article by Sefi Rachlevsky. ”
Well actually yes, you actually said word for word “Most Israeli children are already being given an ultra-Orthodox education.”
link to mondoweiss.net
And only cited the article after I said you were wrong.
I’ve cited demographic studies from Israel and the OECD.
“Most remarkable is the rise in Ultra-orthodox education; roughly one quarter of Hebrew-speaking children (or a little under one-fifth of the total population) now start primary school in this stream.”
Why do you lie?
Why do you lie?
The correct question would be: Why do you troll so much? I provided a citation which backed-up exactly what I had said.
You responded that the author was probably lying or meant to say something else. Unfortunately, your lie detection skills are no better than your reading comprehension skills (less than spectacular).
Sefi Rachlevsky was discussing 1) the first grades of school (not all of the primary grades included in the discussion by the authors in the Foreign Policy article that you cited); and 2) those who are defined by Israel as “Jews” (not the whole population or all of those who happen to speak Hebrew that were included in the discussions by the authors of the articles that you cited).
If the enlightened population wasn’t willing to leave Israel and move west after reading Rachlevsky’s article, they certainly should be convinced after reading the Ynet article that you cited. Your suggestion that the government of Israel has an effective plan in place for dealing with the increased ultra-Orthodox population is magical thinking. Did it adopt a replacement for the Tal Law before the 1 August deadline or opt for a do-nothing policy that destroyed its super majority as the JPost suggested? link to jpost.com
That sort of track record doesn’t inspire much confidence.
Hostage says: “…Many people who comment here act as if it would be out of the question for Gaza to evolve into a separate state, even though political entities a fraction of its size are full members of the UN Organization…”
…except that Gaza is wildly overpopulated, underdeveloped, devoid of natural resources, and populated mostly by refugees.
It would, of course, be convenient for Israel if she could just create ghettos and label them ‘microstates.’ I imagine measures to ensure Israel’s continued security would remain in place.
…except that Gaza is wildly overpopulated, underdeveloped, devoid of natural resources, and populated mostly by refugees.
Gaza is under siege, but it is independent. It has foreign relations with the neighboring government of Egypt. If it were recognized by other members of the various Arab and EU-Mediterranean trade zones it could easily become a viable state with it’s own ports, airport, transportation network, & etc. It could build a desalinization plant and sell off shore gas and oil exploration leases like other states in the region. It already export some products.
Many of the people living there are indigenous, not refugees. The Bantustan argument can only be stretched so far. But it can’t be used to deny the indigenous population self-government or the right of self determination. Statehood isn’t effected per se by the presence of displaced persons or refugees. Nations and nationalities are invented on the basis of a shared sense of identity and belonging. The people living in the West Bank and Jerusalem aren’t experiencing all of the trials and tribulations that the people living in Gaza are going through. The groups may eventually develop their own identities and demand their own governments or a confederation that allows them to address their own group aspirations, without any need to jump through hoops for the diaspora and the others.
My point is that it is absurd to treat Gaza as a legal nullity, when you are giving The Republic of San Marino, Monaco, et al a seat at the UN table with all the rights and duties of statehood (and none of the fussing, fighting, and hairsplitting).
“I provided a citation which backed-up exactly what I had said.
You responded that the author was probably lying or meant to say something else. Unfortunately, your lie detection skills are no better than your reading comprehension skills (less than spectacular).”
It is not the case that “Most Israeli children are already being given an ultra-Orthodox education” as you clearly said. Now claiming that what you meant was something different according to one subsequently cited opinion piece, “In the first grades now – among those defined in Israel as Jews – a majority is once again being consolidated.”
Are most Israeli children already being given an ultra-Orthodox education like you said or are they not?
Don’t try and weasel your way out of this question by creating clauses and caveats that you’ve scraped together from an article you’ve been forced to find and cite after the fact because someone who knows better, and indeed knows educators in Israel has challenged your lie. Anything other than a yes or no answer will of course be further obfuscation unless accompanied by some sort of proof otherwise.
“In the first grades now – among those defined in Israel as Jews – a majority is once again being consolidated”.
This as it stands is untrue. There is no religiously educated majority at present among this demographic that is being consolidated. Again, and this refers to the demographic of 1st grade Jews “Most remarkable is the rise in Ultra-orthodox education; roughly one quarter of Hebrew-speaking children (or a little under one-fifth of the total population) now start primary school in this stream.”
It may be the case that the author is lying to help their opinion piece convey what the author believes. It’s probably the case that the author is saying that a consolidation of a future majority (based on demographic predictions regarding the ultra-orthodox baby boom I cited in studies and present in the reports in the media as such you claim to have seen) of 1st grade Israeli Jews being taught an ultra-orthodox education is in effect now through the various educational accommodations such as subsidies the state provides for this type of education, as well as being consolidated by the claim of an increasingly right wing Israeli climate that is the authors main point. To sum up. a majority is currently in the process of being built and is being consolidated for the reasons given.
Either reading of this part of the opinion piece is different to what you said. You decided you meant the former reading (the present existing majority is being made stronger). This is an untrue claim, and again does not ‘back-up exactly what [you] had said’ which had nothing to do with the demographic mentioned in the article but “most Israeli children”
To avoid any confusion the second mention of majority, shows the author is clearly talking about the subsidizing of and the kind of education being taught to a majority among those being educated among the ultra orthodox…
….“The country is funding and subsidizing religious or Haredi education for most children. And not moderate religious education. Among the vast majority, boys and girls study in separate classes, never see a secular person, and receive a racist-religious-extremist-anti-liberal education,”
…not that most 1st grade Jewish children are being educated religiously with a subsidy.
To take the position as you did that a majority of 1st grade Jewish Israelis are being given a religious education means that they are also being taught in this way, separate classes, no contact with the secular, racist-religious-extremist-anti-liberal. Clearly at odds with the studies I cited, at odds with everyday common knowledge of Israel and another point of evidence that the author is using (specifically) the word consolidated in a less than clear (although most probably not deceptive) manner. On this last point my comprehension of English is indeed better than the author’s use of the language.
Your initial lie has been backed up by something that does not actually refer to what you said and is itself, at best a misuse of words and at worst a lie.
If this is your level of intractability on a minor error how many other unfeasible mistaken opinions of yours have you shined up, usually with a seemingly never ending bucket of legislative and regulatory polish?
Bing Bong,
Wow — you seem to have accumulated a massive electrical charge of hostility towards Hostage.
May I ask: where are you coming from on Mideast politics?
Nation(s) of citizenship? Ethnicity? Religion of upbringing? Current religion? Political orientation and affiliations? Cultural and ideological biases?
Isn’t Israel, from a demographic standpoint, moving decidedly in the direction of greater religious fundamentalism, with all that implies for the future of Israeli society, culture and politics? That is the impression I have acquired from reading quite a few articles in the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz, Ynet News, Israel National News and other relevant publications.
What do you think will be the effects of these developments on Israel’s relations with the United States and Europe? What are the odds that religious Zionism might sink the Zionist experiment altogether? A case could be made that the odds are very good indeed.
“Isn’t Israel, from a demographic standpoint, moving decidedly in the direction of greater religious fundamentalism,”
Yes, not good for anyone sane I would have thought.
Bing Bong, the author said: “The country is funding and subsidizing religious or Haredi education for most children.”
Please take up your argument with Haaretz. The demographic studies that you cited don’t really address that point at all.
Here’s another which says all students in grades six to eight are getting religious indoctrination for two hours a week “Incorporating Judaism and Zionism into Israeli public schools” link to haaretz.com
Wow — you seem to have accumulated a massive electrical charge of hostility towards Hostage.
Who cares? He’s defending a state whose Ministry of Education takes secular kids from supposedly non-Orthodox public schools on tours of Kfar Etzion and Hebron in the Palestinian territories. Once there, they are treated to propaganda from the settlers and their teachers read scriptures to them which they claim give validity to their possession of that country.
It’s no mystery why these little ass hats are lynching Arabs and African refugees, they been indoctrinated to believe that they are entitled to act that way.
Hostage,
That’s the situation that Bing Bong should be morally outraged and anxious about — not you. I don’t understand why his (or her) priorities are so out of order.
“The demographic studies that you cited don’t really address that point at all.”
Yes, the reason for that is in my last post.
“Incorporating Judaism and Zionism into Israeli public schools”
Is not an ultra orthodox education.
Hostage, I just looove people who claim that Israel must have the right kind of Jews in it. See, those Ultra-Orthodox and such are just too Jewish for a modern, democratic Jewish State like Israel.
Gosh, seems like to me that if Israel was intended for any Jews, those Jews whose religious convictions (held, we know, oh-so-sincerely, cause Jews don’t fake) are so devout they make it difficult for them to fit into other than a Jewish-supremacist society should have first claim on it. Who should Israel be for, if not the Ultra-Orthodox, the Harids (or whatever the hell their name is, I forget) the Ultra-Ultra-Orthodox and the Ultra-Ultra-Infra-Dig- Orthodox?
Surely you don’t want Israel populated by a bunch of gosh-darn assimilators, committing God-know-what kind of promiscuity and stuff, like Gentiles do!
“Incorporating Judaism and Zionism into Israeli public schools”
Is not an ultra orthodox education.
LOL! No the Education Minister just runs dog and pony shows for the non-Orthodox kids in an “area of armed conflict” defined by the Supreme Court in order to read scriptures to the kiddies and tell them that the Bible validates their possession of another country.
*Education minister: Hebron school tours don’t indicate West Bank town’s final status link to haaretz.com
* Education Minister: Hebron school trips should have started a long time ago Likud’s Gideon Sa’ar rebuffs protest letter by 260 teachers who refuse to participate in trips to the West Bank town, saying missive is part of anti-government campaign aided by Haaretz. link to haaretz.com
*Education ministry expands school-sponsored Hebron trips link to israelhayom.com
LOL as much as you want it doesn’t make an ultra-orthodox education. Hopefully this minister will be not have a job for long along with the rest of the current gvmt and a different one will return to the situation where these trips don’t happen.
“Education Minister Gideon Sa’ar rebuffed a teachers’ protest concerning planned school trips to Hebron, telling Israel Radio on Monday that the only issue with such excursions is that they haven’t been taking place in the last forty years.”
If you want to snuffle around for individual truffles like this then that is of course up to you, unless you have something that shows a majority of children are given an ultra orthodox education I’ll probably not bother responding to this type of thing. If you find other examples of biblical justifications being taught to children please take it as read I most probably disagree with those also.
the Education Minister just running dog and pony shows for the non-Orthodox kids in an “area of armed conflict” is snuffling around for individual truffles and you probably won’t bother responding to this type of thing. uh huh.
You live in a state where Reform and Conservative Jews are barely recognized through a Sports Ministry. We all know that two hours of religious instruction per week in the regular state curriculum had to pass muster with the Rabbinate, Shas party head Ovadia Yosef, et al or there would be the usual threats of ‘chaos’ and ‘anarchy’, and a departure from the coalition, e.g. link to ynetnews.com
Who cares if you respond? You were trolling these threads in first place.
“You live in a state where Reform and Conservative Jews are barely recognized through a Sports Ministry. ”
Well discrimination against Jews has a long history and is unfortunately not going anywhere soon but I hardly think it’s relevant to what we’re discussing.
“You were trolling these threads in first place.”
You think pointing out an error such as a ‘majority of Israeli kids are given an ultra orthodox education’ is trolling. I think saying something so obviously untrue and biased in the first place is more like trolling. Scrambling around trying to fudge the issue afterwards even more so.
“uh huh.”
Are you also under the assumption that most Israeli children are given an ultra orthodox education or do you, like me know that Hostage is wrong to claim that?
Bing Bong,
What’s your game?
Well discrimination against Jews has a long history and is unfortunately not going anywhere soon but I hardly think it’s relevant to what we’re discussing.
Sure it is. You’re equating ultra-Orthodoxy with the Haredi’s, but I don’t. I consider anyone who justifies serious crimes related to the conquest and colonization of another country on biblical grounds to be a religious fanatic. The material that Israel is spoon feeding its kids for two hours a week is the old extremist Orthodox diatribe that validates Jewish war crimes and crimes against humanity on the basis of racism, ignorance, and religious superstition.
In the Reform movement’s Pittsburgh Platform, which was adopted more than a 120 years ago, the delegates and leadership repudiated the portions of the Bible reflecting those primitive ideas of antiquity and all portions of the Mosaic legislation that were incompatible with the views and habits of modern civilization. After the 1967 war, the movement lost its moral compass and embraced the Zionist enterprise. There’s a proverb for that sort of behavior: “As a dog returns to his vomit, so does a fool repeat his folly.” (Proverbs 26:11)
You think pointing out an error such as a ‘majority of Israeli kids are given an ultra orthodox education’ is trolling.
Of course. You brought the subject up. You’re arguing over an Op-Ed or viewpoint that you don’t like in the comment section of an unrelated article more than a week after the fact. As usual you’re attempting to make a mountain out of molehill and deliberately trying to obfuscate the subject matter. The majority of children in Israel are being given a substandard public education which includes many forms of extremist, nationalist, religious indoctrination.
Hostage wrote:
Bing Bong has been working hard to obfuscate and bury the main issue here — religious fundamentalist beliefs and attitudes increasingly dominate Israeli culture and government policy as a whole. All the key demographic trendlines indicate that this situation is going to become worse in the coming years.
This is a standard hasbarist method: focus on one small peripheral statement made by a political opponent and worry it to death with the hope that the audience will forget the big picture. Bing Bong picked the wrong crowd in which to play this game.
Bing Bong, What’s your game?
The usual. The great divide between the modern western-derived Orthodox streams and the Hasidic or Haredi streams was the degree to which they rejected Enlightenment values. In the case of the state of Israel and its extraterritorial ambitions, there are fewer and fewer differences that matter. Private religion has been co-opted to support a nationalist, criminal, colonial enterprise. Irrational, chauvinistic claims that Jews have a divine right to all of Palestine have become an essential element of the public religion of the State.
the “uh huh” was wrt your ridiculous allegation you probably wouldn’t bother responding, and i was right wasn’t i? you want truffles? what is this:
Hopefully this minister will be not have a job for long along with the rest of the current gvmt
throwing a little bone w/your ‘hope’ is meaningless. the settler freaks vote in a block, their power is growing, not waning. or did you miss the “land of israel lobby” influence?
link to mondoweiss.net represent 40 or 50 Knesset members
iow, it’s irrelvant if secular jews got more votes if they cannot form a government without the religious fruitcakes who happen to be the fastest growing demographics in israel.
so who’s playing with truffles bong? you are. and what, pray tell, is the point of copy/pasting “You live in a state where Reform and Conservative Jews are barely recognized through a Sports Ministry. ” if you do not address the topic? what does Well discrimination against Jews has a long history have anything to do with religious fruitcakes being at the head of all these ministries? that was the deal made w/netanyahu to form the government. what evidence is there this won’t be the same deal down the road. wake up!
they are changing the courts, education, grand-slamming in settlement growth, so basically your ‘hopefully they won’t have a job’ is meaningless pandering.
Hostage wrote:
I would like to see Bing Bong intellectually engage on these core issues, but I don’t think it is going to happen. He (or she) seems to have obsessively focused on you personally as Satan #1 — a strategy of denial.
Apparently Bing Bong doesn’t want to divulge his (or her) national, ethnic, religious, political, cultural and ideological background and biases as they pertain to Mideast politics. Hush hush.
“and what, pray tell, is the point of copy/pasting “You live in a state where Reform and Conservative Jews are barely recognized through a Sports Ministry. ” if you do not address the topic?”
I did address the topic, it’s not relevant to a discussion about Israel though as I said.
“Apparently Bing Bong doesn’t want to divulge his (or her) national….”
Well, you see I do what I want. Why is this such a issue round here? Hostage assumes I live in Israel, I don’t, some other guy assumed I was a Jew the other day, I’m not. Could it be possible that a goy non Israeli can spot nonsense being posted about Israel without being a part of the conspiracy?
“This is a standard hasbarist method: focus on one small peripheral statement made by a political opponent and worry it to death with the hope that the audience will forget the big picture. Bing Bong picked the wrong crowd in which to play this game.”
Saying that a majority of Israeli children get an ultr-orthodox education is quite a big statement. When Hostage said this I replied in very concise terms it wasn’t. All Hostage had to do was 10 mins of reading to find that he was mistaken. As it appears he cannot do this, or indeed take a telling such is his dogmatism I had to do it go to some lengths to force him from his original position. If you don’t want the truth either that’s fine, if you don’t want the truth and dress it up as a hasbara failing of mine then that too is fine.
I did address the topic
lol. great, then explain how “discrimination against Jews has a long history” relates to “Reform and Conservative Jews are barely recognized through a Sports Ministry”. are you suggesting the sports ministry is anti semitic? seriously, you’re sounding unhinged.
it’s not relevant to a discussion about Israel though as I said
the discussion has moved on to:
Why do you troll so much?
Bing Bong,
I made no assumptions about your national, ethnic, religious, cultural and political background — that is why I asked. Should this be a big secret in a hot and heavy discussion about Mideast politics?
Me: American, Anglo-Irish, Roman Catholic by upbringing, currently agnostic/theosophist, progressive libertarian in politics. I am in this discussion because I think that Israeli policies are having a huge negative impact on American values and interests. I would very much like to get out of this discussion — to see all these problems disappear as soon as possible.
My main bias: I am much more a universalist in outlook than a particularist or ethnic or religious nationalist. Some of that attitude probably was instilled in me by Roman Catholicism — combined with an in-depth exposure to some inspiring Enlightenment philosophers and writers.
You seem to be stalking Hostage — it looks weird. I don’t see much meaningful analysis in your comments.
Bing Bong,
Regarding Hostage: I’ve read hundreds of his comments. He may have the most well-furnished and laser-sharp mind on Mideast politics of anyone on Mondoweiss. He always takes the trouble to get his facts straight.
Might he have misspoken in that single sentence? I am not sure — I haven’t looked up the original comment in context. Perhaps he should rephrase that sentence — it’s not a big deal. Most of us get his main point. Religious Zionists are driving Israel over the cliff. BAM. That’s the point of overwhelming strategic importance. Address it.
I did address the topic, it’s not relevant to a discussion about Israel though as I said.
Of course it is. We all know that Reform and Conservative theology are officially marginalized and are not part of the state’s religious curriculum.
If you want to talk about countries that officially persecutes and discriminates against liberal Jews for their beliefs and practices, Israel is one of the prime offenders. Where else in the world can a Jewish woman be arrested for reading a Torah scroll, except at the Western Wall plaza? The public religion of Israel is an extremist and intolerant one.
Saying that a majority of Israeli children get an ultr-orthodox education is quite a big statement.
No it’s not. Here’s some other examples of the ultra-Orthodox rules that the national-religious population insist on applying to govern the public religion of everyone in the State of Israel:
*”Police arrest Women of the Wall leader for praying with Torah scroll: Anat Hoffman, the women’s prayer group leader, was arrested for holding a Torah scroll in violation of a High Court ruling on prayer at the Western Wall. link to haaretz.com
* Silencing girl scouts: Women’s singing controversy erupts again
The problem of women’s singing in Israel simply refuses to go away. link to haaretz.com
You can’t pretend that the state isn’t incorporating instruction on those sort of mandated social boundaries and instilling those very same values in children through both its religious curriculum and the public conduct of high officials. After all, it was the secular High Court that condoned and endorsed those oppressive and extreme positions on women at the Western Wall. The same thing applies to the biblical rationale employed to justify conquest, land expropriation, home demolition, deportation, and granting amnesty and extending approval to those who construct outposts illegally in the OPT.
“are you suggesting the sports ministry is anti semitic? seriously, you’re sounding unhinged.”
No, I’m telling you I don’t live in Israel. For the second time in 2 days for some reason.
Gosh, seems like to me that if Israel was intended for any Jews, those Jews whose religious convictions (held, we know, oh-so-sincerely, cause Jews don’t fake) are so devout they make it difficult for them to fit into other than a Jewish-supremacist society should have first claim on it.
The fringe benefits of being ultra-Orthodox have caused their ranks to be swelled in recent years. It appears that the secular Jews have to protect their parks and neighborhoods from illegal settlement by claim jumping ultra-Orthodox Jews. The disagreeable louts start harassing the taxpayers as soon as they get settled-in. There’s an interesting case study @ +972 Magazine about that: link to 972mag.com
Until such a plebiscite and corpus separatum instituted, the territory is still a part of Palestine.
UNSC Res 476 – 1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem;
““the actual differences on core issues are not that great, they are not insurmountable.”
This shows Abbas is offering his unelected back passage for the safe passage of settlement convoys This only confirms what Guardian already published in Palestine papers.
Just imagine if Israel was willing to compromise on its maximalist demands (the illegal settlements of Beitar Illit, Ma’ale Adumim, Modi’in Illit, Ariel and the annexation of East Jerusalem). Just stating the problem in these terms, (if you are an Israeli and not some ignorant hasbarist) proves the impossibility of reaching the shining goal of a two state solution and a just peace. You know that Israel cannot compromise on these settlements just as you should know that the PA cannot agree to cede them to Israel.
If Dershowitz wanted to signal that he was interested in brokering a real peace, as opposed to playing the role of a grifter, he would make a reference to these contentious areas.
mondonut says: “Just imagine the reaction if he actually compromised on maximalist demands and agreed to peace.”
I infer that by ‘maximalist’ you mean wanting a whole fifth of his homeland and actual sovereignty over that fifth.
Even if Abbas said that he doesn’t move during Yom Kippur, that he looks forward to the Korban Pesach , that he has all the Ofra Haza albums and that Jerusalem is Jewish period they wouldn’t give him anything.
Who does Dershowitz claim to represent?
September 24
Ignore Israel Firsters. 5% Of Jews Vote Based on Israel, 1% On Iran Nukes
link to mjayrosenberg.com
“Ignore Israel Firsters. 5% Of Jews Vote Based on Israel, 1% On Iran Nukes”
I’d say, paraphrasing Philip Weiss, ignore the Jews. Way too much work for a piddling 2% of the population. Those who get it will either leave the Tribe or join the solidarity movement on their own. The non-Jewish supporters and enablers of Zionism are more numerous than the Jewish ones, anyway, and they are way more of a problem.
Who does Dershowitz claim to represent?
Maybe Dershowitz is the real “Leader of the Jewish people”! Boy, is Bibi ever going to be disappointed! :-(
I saw a report on a Palestinian website that Abbas had his “VIP pass” confiscated temporarily as a signal from his masters that he must show less autonomy. (Or perhaps they even told him so explicitly–who knows?) His more conciliatory posture is presumably the price for getting his pass back. Without it he cannot even travel from one place in the West Bank to another, let alone abroad. What sort of president is it who has less right to free movement than an ordinary citizen of almost any country on earth? These are negotiations between a prisoner and his jailer, with the prisoner expected to play the role not just of a free man but of a statesman. I think he is to be pitied. Who would want to be in his shoes?
@ Stephen
Exactly. Abbas has got be committed to his cause to take the personal humilations and grief and still keep going.
“Pitied”. “Exactly. he must be committed to the cause” to take the humiliation.
Please. He might have convinced himself that his boot licking , panderung, being Israel’s police man and collaborator will bring some relief to the Palestinian people. Where has that got him and his people.? I shouldn’t say “his people”. He is as far removed from “his” people as Netanyahu. His only “cause” is to pretend he is the fictional President of a fictional State/Entity. He does that job well, to relieve Israel of the burden of responsibility of the occupation.
The billion dollars or so that has flowed through Abbas’s treasury over the last decade are probably sufficient compensation for the humiliation that he suffers.
Quisling or 5th column and Vichy government all in one.
“Harvard jurist and well-known Israel advocate Professor Alan Dershowitz has secured Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ agreement to a settlement freeze formula that he hopes will break the diplomatic stalemate and lead to a resumption of peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.”
LOL…well Israel is never going do a settlement freeze so that tells you how ridiculous this Dersh brain fart is.
As for Abbas meeting with them…what has he got to lose?…nothing….he can look like he’s trying to meet them half way while in reality he knows there’s no meeting the Israelis half way.
So this ‘meeting’ is a non event imo.
At the risk of arousing the wrath of everyone else here :):
Alan Dershowitz usually annoys the hell out of me, but I recognize that he, like Marc Zell, is a very smart guy who is capable of understanding reasonable strategic assessments and arguments.
I think every effort should be made at this critical moment in history to try to persuade Dershowitz and others who at least claim to support the two-state solution — through rational means and not harassment and verbal abuse — to make one last big push to come to a permanent two-state peace agreement that is truly fair and just under the current real-world circumstances — and which isn’t a con game of the type that was run by Dennis Ross, Martin Indyk and Aaron David Miller.
Such a peace agreement would require massive and aggressive intervention from the outside — especially from the United States and Europe — and may require the temporary positioning of NATO troops in the region to make the agreement stick. Quite a few eggs will need to be broken for both Israelis and Palestinians. Israelis may need to be convinced to generously transfer much of their current US aid to Palestinians. Palestinians will need to relinquish their hopes for an unlimited right of return.
The only alternative I see is a total disaster for Israelis, Palestinians, Americans and the world at large. This is the last chance to avoid a real nightmare.
Now have at me.
“Such a peace agreement would require massive and aggressive intervention from the outside — especially from the United States and Europe — and may require the temporary positioning of NATO troops in the region to make the agreement stick.”
And last I heard, everybody in NATO was polishing their boots (soon to be on Holy ground) and oiling their weapons in joyous anticipation of the completely pleasurable and sure-to-be-sucessful mission you recommend.
But I do commend you for making the task of conquering, occupying, and dismantling the Zionist regime, along with the stringent measures necessary to prevent Zionist terrorism against you and/or the inhabitants (after all, they do have some experience in this, you’ll probably need to imprison the entire officer class, they probably have wet dreams of the Stern Gang.) sound like an administrative procedure. Good ol’ (how that man could orate and libate!) Cato said it best.
know this
on whose side
slave or slavemaster
arise, palestine
that the world decide
sardelapasti says: This said, Abbas is an Israeli collaborator and it would be foolish to expect him not to do what his owners want.
======================================
Awesome. Thanks for making my point.
To answer your question, examples of maximalist demands would be ones reflecting the positions that Israel exists illegally, that a full RoR must be implemented and that the entirety of East Jerusalem change hands. You know, deal breakers.
BTW, more awesome: “Zionist use (I insist) for Zionist propaganda”
“You know, deal breakers”
Let’s not be ridiculous. What F deal? Where did you ever dream any deal being offered at any time since 1904?
More Zionist propaganda. Compromise is OK, of course, but recouncing rights is something else.
sardelapasti says: “You know, deal breakers” Let’s not be ridiculous. What F deal? Where did you ever dream any deal being offered at any time since 1904?
=======================
Perhaps you do not understand the concept of “deal breaker”, which are standing demands that negate future or yet to be completed deals – not past deals. And none of the deal breakers I listed involve the the renouncing of rights. The Palestinians do not possess the RoR or rights to East Jerusalem.
mondoweiss says: ‘The Palestinians do not possess the RoR or rights to East Jerusalem.’
Well, if they don’t possess rights to East Jerusalem, neither do the Jews possess rights to West Jerusalem. Israel accepted the 1947 UN Partition Resolution, and by that, all of Jerusalem is supposed to be under international mandate.
As to the ‘right of return,’ Israel also agreed not to dispossess the Palestinians living within the borders of the prospective Jewish state. She obviously did dispossess them, and so that needs to be rectified if Israel is to comply with the terms she herself accepted.
So you’re wrong.
mondonut says: “…Many people who comment here act as if it would be out of the question for Gaza to evolve into a separate state, even though political entities a fraction of its size are full members of the UN Organization.”
So wanting East Jerusalem is a ‘maximalist demand’? In other words, it’s a ‘maximalist demand’ for the Palestinians to want a whole fifth of their homeland? I suppose actually wanting all the attributes of independence within that fifth would be ‘maximalist’ as well.
I hate this silly-ass game of cooking the definitions to make Israel’s position sound reasonable.
ColinWright says: mondonut says: “…Many people who comment here act as if it would be out of the question for Gaza to evolve into a separate state, even though political entities a fraction of its size are full members of the UN Organization.” So wanting East Jerusalem is a ‘maximalist demand’?
====================================
BTW, that is not a quote of mine. But to answer your question, yes. Expecting (demanding) all of East Jerusalem including the Kotel is a maximalist demand that will never be achieved outside of total war.
mondonut says: “BTW, that is not a quote of mine. But to answer your question, yes. Expecting (demanding) all of East Jerusalem including the Kotel is a maximalist demand that will never be achieved outside of total war…”
Nonsense. A maximalist demand would be demanding that the Zionists (a) evacuate Palestine, (b) face criminal charges for the acts they’ve committed while there, and (c) pay generously-calculated reparations. Any assets they own overseas should be seized, of course.
…but perhaps a compromise can be reached. However, first things first. Israel does need to honor the commitments she’s already made. That means a withdrawal to the 1947 Partition line and a restoration of all seized Palestinian property within that line.
Then we can get on with seeing if a compromise can be reached on the maximalist demand.
Abass has asked that President Ahmadinejad stop saying something he did not say ie, [ wipe Israel off the map] and to ask him to say,” put Palestine on the map”, something Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called on everybody to do, in more positive ways than any Arab Leader, Abass is so sorry his close friends Mubarak and Ben Ali are no more they had a similar mind set.
“According to Dershowitz and other participants in a Monday night meeting with Abbas in New York, the Palestinian president also promised to make “a positive statement” about the connection between Israel and the Jewish people during his Thursday address to the United Nations General Assembly.”
WTF? Why does he have to make any sort of statement? His responsibility is to the Palestinian people and he should speak for them.
“Sources at the meeting also revealed that Abbas has assured U.S. President Obama’s Administration that he would not press for a General Assembly vote on the Palestinian request for non-state recognition before the upcoming November 6 presidential elections.”
Again putting others interests before the Palestinians. But Abbas will do it. Maybe Dershowitz should be spending his energy focusing on getting Netanyahu to shut the hell up about Iran between now and the Presidential elections, since that would be more helpful than anything Abbas could do.
“They also said that Abbas had asked Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to stop referring to “wiping Israel off the map” and to replace that incendiary formulation with a call to “put Palestine on the map” instead.”
How on Earth do they think Abbas has that sort of influence? Forget the Elders of Zion, is there some secret Muslim elders meeting in Dershowitz’s imagination where all the Muslim leaders would go and talk strategy? Abbas can tell Ahmadinejad whatever he wants and Ahmadinejad will promptly ignore him because Abbas is basically a joke.
Meh. Not ruling out that Dershowitz made this up whole cloth. Even if he did not: Nothing of consequence will result.
“…to stop referring to “wiping Israel off the map” and to replace that incendiary formulation with a call to “put Palestine on the map” instead.”
He said what?
Great effect. But that’s very strange of Abbas, inasmuch as Ahmadinejad has never pronounced the first phrase.
“the actual differences on core issues are not that great, they are not insurmountable.”
- Really they are going to speak of core issues? Borders? Water? Settlements? Jerusalem? Refugees? Right of return? I can’t believe this.
- In facts, it never happened, if not in order to postpone to never the outstanding problems. Neither in Oslo, nor at Camp David was made some light. Save something at Taba, but it was out of the time limit.
- Anyway it is useless to speak of core issues, if not in order to solve the related problems. In this respect, if Abbas and Netanyahu sit down and have “serious” talks, I fear they will find their positions as distant as Mars from the Earth.
- I don’t think they’re suitable. Both.
“and the freeze will continue as long as the talks continue in good faith.”
Then it won’t even start. Let alone continue.
“…Dershowitz, who said that he views himself as someone who can serve as “an honest broker” between Israel and the Palestinians . . .”
That is a funny. More seriously, though, I keep feeling sorry for Abbas.
He strikes me as a perfectly good man — but he’s in the position those members of the Judenraten(?) were in the ghettos. He’s always being forced into complicity in selling his people down the river.
I don’t think Abbas is any match for Dershowitz. Take a look at the “Dershowitz Formula”:
link to online.wsj.com
The gist of it is that Netanyahu should offer that “Israel will stop all settlement building in the West Bank as soon as the Palestinian Authority sits down at the bargaining table, and the freeze will continue as long as the talks continue in good faith.” OK, but let’s look at the fine print. Most important is the requirement of “good faith.” Who decides that? Netanyahu, of course. If he doesn’t think Abbas is negotiating in good faith, all bets are off, settlement construction continues, and Abbas is blamed for his “bad faith.”
And what does Dersh envision as good faith negotiations? The first issue to be discussed is division of the WB into three areas: (1) those areas “relatively certain to remain part of Israel”; (2) those areas “relatively certain to become part of a Palestinian State; and (3) those areas which could go either way; if they remain part of Israel, they would be subject to land swaps. Once this first issue is decided, settlement may resume in area (1), because they will be incorporated into Israel. Note that the construction vehicles should have their keys left in the ignition because they will be idle for a few hours at most. Note also that Dersh does not say that these areas will be swapped for other Israeli land. And if Abbas refuses to recognize that Israel has a “right” to areas “relatively certain to remain part of Israel”? Well then, he’s not negotiating in good faith, and will be blamed for the termination of talks. Where is the role of international law that says that Israel is not “entitled” to any additional land beyond the green line? There is none.
Of course, the Palestinians have to waive the right of return – that goes without saying, though Dersh does say it. Furthermore, Israelis will be entitled to guarantees about the Jordan Valley and rocket attacks. In other words, they will have some sort of control over the border between Palestine and Jordan to ensure that no weapons pass that way, while Israel enjoys one of the most advanced militaries in the world and can import any weapon system it wishes. Also, if Israel wants to strangle the WB the way it has been strangling Gaza, allowing in a trickle of approved foods sufficient to keep the population alive, its control of the Jordan Valley will make that easy. And while Israel gets guarantees against rocket attacks, nothing is said about Palestinians enjoying security from Israeli attacks, because after all, they have nothing to worry about – Israel never launches attacks, they just suffer as victims.
If Abbas has a problem with any of these conditions personally laid down by the creator of the “Dershowitz Formula,” Abbas is not acting in good faith. The breakdown in this 547th chapter of the peace process will be entirely his fault, as will be plain for all the world to see. After all, Abbas had access to the full proposal published in the WSJ; even this guy Samel found it on line. If Abbas agreed to Dersh’s proposal, he must have known about and agreed to all these conditions. Samel did.
Then there are unstated problems. If Abbas “refuses” to recognize that some land in Dershowitz’s third area will have to remain in Israeli hands because it will be just too damn difficult to remove the settlers, bad faith! If Abbas is unhappy about the quantity and quality of the “land swaps” Israel grudgingly offers, bad faith! If the land swaps give control of most WB water to Israel, and Abbas balks, bad faith!
In the beginning of his article, Dersh blames Palestinians alone for the lack of talks. That’s his agenda. His entire proposal is a suggestion to his friend Bibi how to “clarify” that it’s all the Palestinians’ fault. Abbas doesn’t have the sense to know he’s dealing with a viper who is much craftier. Chance of success: zero. Chance that failure will be blamed on Abbas: 100%. Good going, Mahmoud.
“And what does Dersh envision as good faith negotiations? The first issue to be discussed is division of the WB into three areas: (1) those areas “relatively certain to remain part of Israel”; (2) those areas “relatively certain to become part of a Palestinian State; and (3) those areas which could go either way; if they remain part of Israel, they would be subject to land swaps.”
I would be morbidly curious to find out just how little of Palestine the Israelis are prepared to let the Palestinians have: evidently, 22% is just way too much and out of the question. I wonder if they’re to be permitted a whole tenth? A seventh?
Then of course — assuming I still have my lunch — we can move on to under what terms they may have this fraction. I assume they won’t be able to have whatever armed forces they please. Would they be permitted control of their own borders? Of their airspace? Of what’s left of their water?
These are formulas for Bantustans. What South Africa was trying to put over, Israel might permit — if the Palestinians are very, very good.
Settlement freeze – what a meaningless commitment. There are more than 12,500 demolition orders on Palestinian homes and barns on land they own in the Jordan Valley. It’s not what goes up that must stop, there isn’t population enough to fill all the new homes anyway in these Potemkin hilltop fortresses for the
It’s what they are tearing down that must stop.
Les, thanks for the Rosenberg link, proving a Jewish person is likely to vote based on the same criteria as any other American citizen, while establishing once again the exaggerated importance-relevance of Israel’s portrayal in our media, also disproving commonly held assumptions that all Jews are the same in thought or preference. If you have not experienced these commonly held assumptions I suggest you may be living in an isolated environment or you may not be Jewish.
Dershowitz is a hired gun in my opinion, whether he is an active Zionist does not matter at this time as he is being compensated in some form. I think they want him more for his visibility, like hey that ole Douchewitz is helping the peace talks while Netanyahoo comes across as willing to cooperate, if only Abbas will see the light. He provides a positive vibe and adds legitimacy(real or imagined) to a moot point, but it effectively paints the picture they want everyone to see. It sounds so believable on the news yet its all a ruse. I hope I am wrong and its not a con game, but it sure sounds like one to me.
All this probably looks grossly obvious to the esteemed scholars here on Mondoweiss, but without the facts I read here I would not have known about this latest obfuscation concerning the fantasy of a settlement freeze.
Keep up the good work.
RE: “The [Dershowitz] formula states that ‘Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu should now offer a conditional freeze: Israel will stop all settlement building in the West Bank as soon as the Palestinian Authority sits down at the bargaining table, and the freeze will continue as long as the talks continue in good faith‘.” ~ Haaretz
MY COMMENT: It’s a trap! Just like Dershowitz’s use of “opening the door” during the trial of Claus von Bülow. And not unlike the infamous ‘Trojan horse’.
Dershowitz just wants there to be an ongoing “peace process” as cover so that Israel can endlessly “negotiate” while continuing to gobble up
the West BankJudea and Samaria.Does anyone think that Netanyahu will actually enforce a halt in settlement building [as opposed to merely proclaiming a halt]? Fat chance of that! Just take a close look at what happened last time.
• SEE: PopWatch Confessional: When has TV been a good icebreaker for you? By Mandi Bierly, PopWatch.com, 11/30/11
SOURCE – link to popwatch.ew.com
• ALSO SEE: Memorable quotes for “Curb Your Enthusiasm” Palestinian Chicken (2011) - link to imdb.com
Abbas and the PA should just point out that Israel agreed to the terms of the original 1947 UN Partition resolution — and now that there’s a PA to embody the Palestinians in some sense, they would like to agree to it as well.
Legally, there’s really no need to negotiate anything. Israel merely needs to withdraw from the land she has occupied illegally, restore the property she has seized illegally, and finally start adhering to the terms she accepted sixty five years ago.
Abbas and the PA should just point out that Israel agreed to the terms of the original 1947 UN Partition resolution — and now that there’s a PA to embody the Palestinians in some sense, they would like to agree to it as well.
That’s exactly what the 1988 Algiers Declaration of Independence did. It stated that resolution 181(II) was the basis of the state’s international legitimacy. The General Assembly acknowledged the declaration and noted that it was in line with resolution 181(II). The government of Israel declared resolution 181(II) null and void, but it obviously had no legal standing to do that.
Since many Zionists made a big deal out of Mahmoud Abbas having written a doctoral thesis on collaboration between the Zionist movement and the Nazis in the 1930s and 1940s. Maybe Dershowitz can show Mahmoud some of his “Zionist academic skills” (that Norman Finkelstein showed so clearly) such as Dershowitz quoting high school syllabi and http://www.sonypictures.com as a supposed “source”.
I think Abbas could do far better of course! link to counterpunch.org
Abdul-Rahman says: “Since many Zionists made a big deal out of Mahmoud Abbas having written a doctoral thesis on collaboration between the Zionist movement and the Nazis…”
It actually warms the cockles of me black, black heart when I see Zionists vilifying and refusing to negotiate with the likes of Abbas. Thank God!
Someday they are going to beg for an Adam Czerniaków like that who will play ball — but by then, it will far too late.
Hang tough, Israel! Go Bibi!
This is a diversionary tactic, designed to give an impression of Israeli goodwill while attention focuses on the IP issue. Meanwhile
here’s another
link to google.com
and back at the ranch
link to observers.france24.com
It is not Abbas’ destiny to resolve the issue, only to keep it from exploding. Palestinians await a charismatic new leader, a Guevara. He’s probably in college somewhere.
or in prison nick. israel kills or imprisons promising young palestinians.
Annie says: “or in prison nick. israel kills or imprisons promising young palestinians.”
No shit. When one looks at the sheer numbers of Palestinians Israel locks up, one realizes that she controls the Palestinians by the very simple technique of imprisoning or threatening with imprisonment any leader that poses a threat to her.
It’d be interesting to compare numbers for Palestinians under Israeli rule and Social Democrats under Nazi rule, ca 1938. We could throw in Republicans under Franco, ca 1955. Who was carrying out the most rigorous repression?
It is not Abbas’ destiny to resolve the issue, only to keep it from exploding. Palestinians await a charismatic new leader, a Guevara. He’s probably in college somewhere.
The international community is still tracking down the nonagenarians responsible for WWII-era crimes. For jurisdictional purposes, it never mattered whether the Third Reich still existed or whether its successor was one state or two. So it’s possible that Abbas could have set in motion events that will bear fruit long after he departs the world stage, simply by filing the official complaint back in 2009 with the ICC and accepting the Court’s jurisdiction on behalf of the State of Palestine.
FYI, a group of prominent academics in the field of international law has written to the President of the Assembly of States Parties of the International Criminal Court asking that she put the issue of Palestinian statehood before the next session of the Assembly in November. So the upgrade in the permanent observer status of Palestine at the United Nations isn’t the only game in town. The UN could prove to be an unnecessary distraction. The Cook Islands joined the ICC without becoming a UN member state or a UN observer state. — See the letter and endorsements by: John Dugard, William Schabas, Georges Abi-‐Saab, Susan Akram, Ove Bring, Marcel Brus, Eric David, Anton du Plessis, Max du Plessis, Mathias Forteau, Vera
Gowlland Debbas, Larissa van den Herik, Victor Kattan, Michael Kearney, Marcelo Kohen, Chantal Meloni, André Nollkaemper, Roger O’Keefe, Alain Pellet, John Quigley, John Reynolds, Jean Salmon, Ben Saul, Nico Schrijver, Iain GM Scobbie, Carsten Stahn, Sébastien Touzé, Paul de Waart, William Thomas Worster, and Liesbeth Zegveld. — link to mediafire.com
Abbas has kept things from exploding just as Macmillan did at tense moments in the cold war. You hold your ground until it gets too hot, then you take a small step away; you exercise patience while time does all sorts of strange things. Do you not think that the next generation of non-extremist Israelis will look askance at present policies just as a new generation of Soviet citizens did before Ich bin ein Berliner? Either way, Palestinians need a charismatic leader and when there is such an urgent vacuum someone usually arises to fill it.
hostage- would there be a free vote at the ICC or could the US subvert it like it did at the UN Sec council ?
hostage- would there be a free vote at the ICC or could the US subvert it like it did at the UN Sec council ?
You shouldn’t underestimate the lengths to which the US might go to interfere with the operation of any international criminal tribunal. The Congress authorized the use of any necessary means to rescue the citizens of the US and its allies if they are ever detained for trial in the ICC. That’s why “The American Service-Members’ Protection Act”, is sarcastically referred to as “The Hague Invasion Act” by the international legal community. I don’t think the US has that kind of impunity or political capital that it can spare to rescue Netanyahu & Co.
The US isn’t a member of the ICC. So it doesn’t have a vote and can’t threaten to withhold its dues or assessments. None of the 121 member countries have any ideological qualms about the concept of an international criminal court that can exercise complementary jurisdiction in the event that a national judicial system has collapsed or is non-existent due to an occupation or war. That scenario actually triggers the ICC’s jurisdiction according to the terms of the Rome Statute. Of those 121 states about 70 have formally recognized the Palestine. So the Assembly of State parties could settle the jurisdictional question sometime in November without the need for any action in the United Nations.
Hostage,
I am curious what you think will come about if Palestine does get non member status at the UN.
Do you think they can ever get to the ICC?
Do you think they can ever get to the ICC?
The PA has already been to the ICC. Its officials have already done all that is required of them to request investigations and prosecutions. The ICJ had already published an opinion which contained a finding of fact that Israel is in violation of Article 49(6) of the 4th Geneva Convention. That is a war crime listed in Article 8(2)(b)viii of the Rome Statute that has been committed on the territory of Palestine by easily identifiable Israeli officials, including members of the regional councils:
link to untreaty.un.org
To date, there has been zero political pressure from grassroots Palestinian or solidarity organizations to demand that the Court take action on that complaint.
The solidarity movement has run around making a spectacle of itself over the pointless exercise of getting the Goldstone report through the Security Council (where it has always faced a certain US veto). FYI, the Prosecutor can take action on the Goldstone report (or any other information in the public domain) on her own initiative, once she has a valid state referral in hand from Palestine or another state which is a party to the Statute. I’ve commented a number of times that ISM members ought to be concentrating their efforts in the Hague. The UN has file cabinets full of fact finding reports, just like the Goldstone report. It’s a complete waste of time trying to circumvent that US veto or US attempts to blackmail the UN organs with threats to their funding. That’s exactly what Netanyahu & Co. want us to be doing right now.
NickJOCW says: “… Palestinians await a charismatic new leader, a Guevara. He’s probably in college somewhere.”
He’s probably in an Israeli prison somewhere. In case you haven’t noticed, Israel takes good care to lock up all the more likely candidates.
“He’s probably in an Israeli prison somewhere.” (Colin)
Could also be in a Palestinian prison. Both appear to be operating as a tag-team these days; from al-Akhbar:
“Rami Rajoub, who was previously detained by the PA, was arrested by the Israeli occupation forces on July 26 the night after he sat down for his last exam. Unfortunately, this basis of security coordination, where the PA arrests then releases a Palestinian only for Israel to arrest him shortly afterwards and vice versa, is also a common occurrence.
The PA uses the excuse of arresting and holding Palestinians in their prisons based on ‘protecting’ the arrested from getting detained by Israel,” Hamed Qawasme clarified. “Families have responded by saying that they’d rather have their sons in Israeli prisons than PA ones, and some prisoners have even signed a paper contesting that they’ll take their chances regarding their potential arrests by Israel, and for the PA to just release them
link to english.al-akhbar.com
Abbas is no longer especially useful. He perhaps kept Israel from being able to go further in her ‘glory years’ under Bush, but it’s a good thing Israel was too greedy to cut a deal with him, since he probably would sell out the Palestinians in exchange for a nice little Bantustan with himself as president.
But we’re past that now, and before Israel wakes up and ‘accepts’ the unstated offer, it would be a good idea to move on.
dersho +abbas= jewish cash compensation —what a waste
the biggest extortion racket ever .
twice G-d has asked for a house of cedar to be built in his name so who amongst us can come forward and build it .
“Am Yisrael Chai” he shouted and the man asked if that would be an expresso or a latte
“twice G-d has asked for a house of cedar to be built in his name so who amongst us can come forward and build it .
“Am Yisrael Chai” he shouted and the man asked if that would be an expresso or a latte”
I bet that would be pretty funny if I understood it. Or maybe not.
Should one trust Derschowitz bearing gifts?
In this case, I support Abbas (quisling that he is). The requirement of freezing settlement is after all his long standing requirement, and would Netanyahu declare “bad faith” in negotiations without a good reason, that could actually diplomatically backfire.
Any type of negotiation is very dangerous for the government of Israel, because of utter nuttery that is predominant in the Knesset. (Memo: write a 10 volume history of Zionism with Vol 10: Zionism in XXI century, utternutterian phase.) If I recall correctly, the current government offered only one position on the border issue that was the personal opinion of the Foreign Minister, not consulted with the rest of the Cabinet: make the Palestinian state coincide with the current “Area A”.
I would add one condition: the negotiating sides have the right of disclosing the offers of the other side. And perhaps some way of determining “good faith”, say, a committee of 5 retired heads of neutral states. The chief value of negotiations would be to educate the public.
Should one trust Derschowitz bearing gifts?
Should Haaretz have bothered to report anything that he said as if it were a matter of fact? In any event, Bibi has already labelled any settlement freeze as an unacceptable precondition. So this story is probably being floated to further undermine Abbas in advance of his remarks to General Assembly.
If Haaretz is accurate (and Derschowitz can deny if it is not, like Kissinger denied NY Post third hand quote that “Israel may cease to exist in 10 years”), then the chief novelty is Derschowitz trying to influence Netanyahu. The freeze is Abbas’s demand, after all.
It is also possible that Haaretz exhibits wishful thinking, or that however accurate the quote, Derschowitz will deny. But the story is clearly to undermine Netanyahu and the rejectionist stand of the current government.
There is more to it: link to algemeiner.com
A scheduled meeting between the president of the Palestinian Authority and American-Jewish leaders in New York yesterday was canceled after the office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stepped in to voice its displeasure, according to Israeli newspaper Maariv.
Billionaire businessman Mort Zuckerman, a former leader of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, organized the meeting, with PA President Mahmoud Abbas according to the report.
——
So it is possible that Abbas met Derschowitz instead. Derschowitz is well connected to the leadership of Jewish organizations, so he is a logical messenger for Abbas. I think that Adelson (for whom Netanyahu is a sockpuppet) and Zuckerman (basically, the traditional Zionist establishment) detest each other.
The issue of settlement freeze is very interesting. It was an idea accepted by Obama and supported by his liberal Zionist advisors. It is an anathema to illiberal Zionists who form the government of Israel and whose top sugar daddy is Adelson. As we know, on that issue Netanyahu wiped the floor with Obama. Liberal Zionist have powerful “sugar daddies” of their own, like Zuckerman or Saban, but they dread any overt disunity. I still do not understand why and how Obama folded, but we know the rough scheme: illiberal Zionists cow the liberal ones, the united Zionist front cows the Democrats in Congress etc.
One problem is that liberals do not belong to Vertebrata, and yet there are human! one of the biological mysteries. Yet, illiberal Zionist made some mistakes, chiefly by making readiness for a war with Iran a marker for American patriotism and sufficient support of the topmost (by far!) ally of USA. You can vilify Palestinians and American public will let it pass. You can vilify Muslim. But the public appetite for the third war in the Middle East is just not there, any effort to press that issue only improves Obama ratings.
As Obama polls are improving, Adelson looks increasingly like an idiot, that bad aura spreads to his favorite sock puppet and taints the illiberal Zionist cause. That gives the room, perhaps, for the freeze idea. Or not. Illiberal Zionist are as resolute as the liberal ones are not (this is mirrored in American politics on other issues like health care).
———
PS. I was looking for a good label for Adelson and his ilk. Clearly, not all Zionists are the same, and the chief schism seems to be readiness to continue the peace process (however unproductive) and to commit necessary concessions (however minute). This schism aligns with many other cultural and political markers, so I propose to call the respective sides liberal and illiberal.