This weekend I saw a NY friend who grew up in an Israel-right-or-wrong family, and she said she can’t stand Netanyahu; she’s enraged that he stuck himself into our election. I continue to believe that Netanyahu will be gone within six months or so, that an Israeli leader can’t stay leader if he creates daylight between the U.S. and Israel, as Netanyahu has done in recent weeks. Some other indicators.
Dan Ephron reports at Newsweek that Netanyahu is losing public support in Israel:
Netanyahu has watched the polls move steadily against him for the past year. One of them, conducted by the Israel Democracy Institute in August, showed just 27 percent of Israelis support a unilateral strike—that is, an attack on Iran without a green light from the United States…
The rub for the Israeli leader is that even some Republicans are now thinking an Israeli strike before the U.S. election is a bad idea. Karl Rove, the GOP’s éminence grise, said on Fox News in August that a war now would cause Americans to rally around the president and likely clinch the election for him. The recent riots in the Middle East in response to an anti-Muslim video posted on the Internet seem to bear Rove out. Far from hurting Obama, they may have shored up his lead.
Here’s a survey by the American Jewish Committee of Florida Jewish voters. These people are hawkish: older Jews who are overwhelmingly in support of military action against Iran by the US and Israel to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons. And even these old folks are lukewarm on Netanyahu:
What is your opinion of the way the Israeli government led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is handling the US-Israel relationship?
31% VERY FAVORABLE 41% SOMEWHAT FAVORABLE 13% SOMEWHAT UNFAVORABLE 8% VERY UNFAVORABLE 8% DON’T KNOW/NO RESPONSE
Compare that to Obama’s #s. The Florida Jews would vote 69-25 for the president, and they like how he’s doing his job.
Please tell me whether you approve or disapprove of the way President Obama is handling the following issues.
National Security
52% APPROVE STRONGLY 24% APPROVE SOMEWHAT 10% DISAPPROVE SOMEWHAT 12% DISAPPROVE STRONGLY 2% DON’T KNOW/NO RESPONSE The Economy
30% APPROVE STRONGLY 34% APPROVE SOMEWHAT 9% DISAPPROVE SOMEWHAT 24% DISAPPROVE STRONGLY 3% DON’T KNOW/NO RESPONSE
Oh and here is a comment from MJ Rosenberg. I know, Netanyahu lost Rosenberg a long time ago. But I like the paradigm shift here.
Under Bibi, Israel is becoming the new Rhodesia: the voice of the White Race (Bibi = Ian Smith)
Rosenberg was responding to a Max Blumenthal tweet: Israeli ambssdor to Australia: “Asia is basically the yellow race. Australia and Israel are not – we’re the white race” http://www.news.com.au/top-stories/israeli-envoy-rebuked-for-slanted-eyes-remark/story-e6frfkp9-1111112360142#ixzz27M7g7auS …
Gideon Levy from 2009 –
link to haaretz.com
“May God protect Israel if, heaven forbid, it ever turns into Yitzhar: violent, isolated, conservative, religious and backward. ”
It didn’t take long for Israel to become Yitzhar
Perhaps this explains why Young US Jews are falling out of love with Bibi .
Only that this is about older Jews, not younger, and Bibi has 70+ % approval rating.
So I don’t quite see them ‘turning on him’ as Phil here suggests.
Also, even Beinart these days have modified his rallying cry. He now basically admits what the polls show: that young Jews are not exactly out of favour with Israel, and that it’s a mostly an issue of loss of contact with Judaism(through intermarriage, assimilation etc).
Therefore a distancing from Israel isn’t a conscious, courageous stance. It’s merely a byproduct of a larger movement into indifference and apathy.
This is a pretty depressing story, I know, but it must be told. That’s why Beinart now talks about ‘elite Jewish opinion’ instead, a far more narrow definition than “young American Jews”.
His book sold 3000 copies.
If it was true that the more Jewish education, the more liberal you are was true, you wouldn’t see the Orthodox voting Republican 80 % of the vote.
And most Jewish liberals who have a rigorous Jewish education tend to think like Jeff Goldberg, not like Peter Beinart(who is an odd man out within Modern Orthodox Jewry in terms of politics on Israel).
And as a tweet from Rosenberg on Twitter also revealed, he spoke with a student on Brandeis who said that the Orthodox are heavily invested in Israel.
So what this can be shown is basically: the more Jewish your upbrining, the lesser the liberal you are(not the other way around). Most Jews support Israel, and those who don’t, dont tend to do it out of pure apathy but as a sign of a greater phenomenom.
Part of this reason is why Phil is struggling so much to turn Jewish opinion around.
And it’s also why I’ve been writing here for some months that it will be the gentiles, not Jews, who will have the deciding vote on this issue.
True, genuine Jewish liberals will increase and they will be hugely important, just like they were in white ruled South Africa. But in the end, it’s the outside world’s pressure that will seal it. The liberals from within Apartheid South Africa were in a minority, and couldn’t get much support right until the very end, when it was obvious that the outside world wouldn’t tolerate it any longer.
Had there not been significant pressure from the outside, the liberals would have been margainlized, forever.
The same is true here: the Jewish liberals will always be attacked as traitors etc. In some cases, it will be much harder here because Judaism is a very ethnocentric religion.
But you will never have a majority or even a significant minority of Jews who will turn on Zionism, no matter how ugly it gets.
A prime example is Jay Michaelson of the Forward who has gone completely nuts as of late and used to post liberal stuff and now is hard-right on Israel. And I mean this guy wasn’t a Dershowtiz close, he truly talked openly about ‘Apartheid’ back in 2009 and now he attacks the left as anti-Semitic.
There has to be a broad coalition.
“The same is true here: the Jewish liberals will always be attacked as traitors etc.”
Maybe Judaism will end up like the Republican Party with the Orthodox as the tea crowd and all the moderates driven out .The result could be called movement Judaism
seafoid: ““May God protect Israel if, heaven forbid, it ever turns into Yitzhar: violent, isolated, conservative, religious and backward. ”
I dunno about that. Assuming ‘the Lord helps those who help themselves’ is valid, there would seem to be a corollary.
Maybe God will give Israel a healthy shove. Expedite all this for us. In fact, dare I suggest the good Lord is working through Brother Netanyahu even as we speak?
I actually think that support for Israel is going to change public opinion on European Christian Nationalism, instead of the reverse. The legitimization of the Jewish State will legitimize the European Christian state.
You can already see the newer European Nationalist parties being big supporters of Israel. Some of the older parties are changing their tune on Israel.
Of course Islam has a greater role to play than Israel, but Israel legitimizes Religio-Ethnic Nationalism in the face of Islamic aggression. It is the vanguard in that respect, the example, which is staunchly defended as not just morally legitimate but in fact, morally imperative….as opposing the continuation of Israel as a Jewish state is ugly Anti-Semitism. Likewise when applied to the delegitimization of Euro-Christian states is ugly Anti-Euro-Christianism and therefore morally repugnant….ie the policies of indiscriminate immigration, multiculturalism, and diversity promotion are morally repugnant…because they are Anti-Euro-Christian.
Such as?
Such as?
The fact is that polls taken in Europe consistently show Israel’s support in Europe plumetting and Israel regarded as the bigegst threat to world peace.
Newer Nationalist Pro-Israel Jew-Friendly Parties
PVV in Netherlands – Geert Wilders Party
Sweden Democrats
Swiss People’s Party
Danish People’s Party
Vlaams Belang in Belgium
Die Freiheit in Germany
British Freedom Party
UKIP
Progress Party of Norway
True Finns
Older Nationalist Parties moving toward Pro-Israel and Jew Friendly positions
Front National in France
FPO in Austria
PVV in Netherlands – Geert Wilders Party
A fascist who has no influence.
Sweden Democrats & Swiss People’s Party are both regarded as anti Semitic
Danish People’s Party – xenophbic, right-wing populist. Rejects multiculturalism
Vlaams Belang in Belgium – far-right seperatists. Rejects multiculturalism
Die Freiheit in Germany – far-right seperatists. Rejects multiculturalism and have no following
British Freedom Party – far right wing white supremacists
UKIP – right wing seperatists
Progress Party of Norway – LOL are you serious?
So all the parties you mentioned are extreme right, wing, xenophobic and simply hate muslims more than they do Jews.
They would have all been anti Semitic 70 years ago.
I understand that you dont like them.
The parties I mentioned are European Nationalist parties that are pro Israel and friendly to Jews. The are also gaining electoral success and power all across Europe.
The PVV has already been in a coalition government with a center right party (like Israel’s current government). The Danish People’s Party as well.
Actually they are not. They simply hate Jews less than Muslims and as I said before, being racists, anti immigration and xonophobes, they are inherently anti Semitic. They are friendly to Jews in the same way evangelical Christians, who believe all Jews will burn in hell, are friendly to Jews, but they are the worst kinds of anti Semites.
It’s just so sad that Zionists have decided that aligning with anti Semites is a good idea for short term gain. In the end, they see Jews in the same way they see Muslims – as inferior and as outsiders.
You’re just too stupid to realize it.
I understand that you dont like Evangelical Christians and European Nationalists and ascribe them all sorts of beliefs and motives.
Jews see Christians and Muslims as outsiders and inferior. Muslims see Christians and Jews as outsiders and inferior. Atheists see Christians, Muslims, and Jews as outsiders and inferior.
Multiculturalism doesnt work. Balkanization as a policy will lead to conflict, eventually violent conflict. Nationalists arent xenophobes. Lots of nationalists are interested in travel to experience foreign cultures. They just arent interested in having their child’s schools turn into replicas of those places. If you are actually pro diversity, then from an evolutionary standpoint, separation produces diversity.
But alas…
Jews see Christians and Muslims as outsiders and inferior. Muslims see Christians and Jews as outsiders and inferior. Atheists see Christians, Muslims, and Jews as outsiders and inferior.
uh huh, in your world people don’t think with their brains, they think with their ethnicity.
Multiculturalism doesnt work.
you mean as opposed to ethnic nationalist states like israel?
Nationalists arent xenophobes. Lots of nationalists are interested in travel to experience foreign cultures.
uh,like down to the local park? link to mondoweiss.net
“Atheists see Christians, Muslims, and Jews as outsiders and inferior.”
No they don’t. They see themselves as outsiders. How could they not, when the vast majority of people subscribe to one flavor or religion or another. And they don’t think of them as inferior, they think of them as people who think foolish, stupid, unsupported or cynically false things.
Have you actually ever met an atheist????
>> Atheists see Christians, Muslims, and Jews as outsiders and inferior.
I’m atheist and I don’t view Christians, Muslims and Jews – or Scientologists, Wiccans, Klingon-philes or lovers of TV reality shows – as either “outsiders” (relative to humanity, of which we are all a part) or as inferior (relative to humans, which we all are).
Different from me in few or many ways, sure (and obviously), but not outsiders or inferior.
they think of them as people who think foolish, stupid, unsupported or cynically false things.
Because those things dont add up to inferior when juxtaposed to people who do not believe foolish, stupid, unsupported or cynically false things. Thanks for the clarification.
No doubt Atheists see themselves as oppressed victims. Muslims see themselves as oppressed victims. Jews see themselves as oppressed victims. And Christians too see themselves as crucified.
I used to be a agnostic-atheist. Ive met plently.
States like Japan work.
States like Lebanon and Cyprus and Yugoslavia and Nigeria, dont.
Homogeneous polities are much more stable and peaceful.
“Multiculturalism doesnt work”…Escape
Multiculturalism actually works just fine.
What doesn’t work for ethnics anywhere is Multi-’Nationalism’.
“States like Japan work.”
“Homogeneous polities are much more stable and peaceful.”
Yeah, that’s what the Japanese were trying to explain to the Chinese and Koreans and Filipinos and Vietnamese and various Pacific Islanders between 1910 and 1945 — that their homogeneous polity was so fucking peaceful.
It’s hilariousness to hear Jew sin Brooklyn and Manhattan repeating this absurd claim. Were it not for multiculturalism, they’d be living in shtetls in Russian.
What they mean is, it doesn’t work in Israel because true multiculturalism would lead the end of the ethnosupremacist state.
In other words, they enjoy visiting places to see how brown people live, but don’t want those brown people coming to their country. They argue that multiculturalism means is like being invaded and they despise diversity…
But alas…
So do states like the UK, France, the US and Australia.
>> No doubt Atheists see themselves as oppressed victims.
I’m atheist and I don’t see myself as an oppressed victim.
>> I used to be a agnostic-atheist.
Hard to believe, given the (IMO) inaccurate, broad-stroke statements you’ve made about atheists…unless you were simply projecting your own insecurities onto atheists in general.
Generalizations are the nature of the beast.
“Because those things dont add up to inferior when juxtaposed to people who do not believe foolish, stupid, unsupported or cynically false things.”
No. I believe people who think “Jersey Shore” is good television believe somethitng that is foolish, stupid, unsupported or cynically false. That doesn’t mean I think they are inferior.
“I used to be a agnostic-atheist.”
I have my doubts that anyone can be (short of some type of trauma to the brain) a “former atheist.” Although I suppose that if one merely chose the atheist position in a completely non-thinking way, that a similar non-thinking change could occur. Were you a non-thinking person then and now? I can’t see how you could have reached that position knowingly, because it’s not like the evidence for the existence of a god has moved in favor of such a thing’s existence. Quite the reverse, in fact.
Christianity is moribund in most of Europe. Europe might become nationalist again, but I don’t see how it could become Christian again.
See Hungary’s new constitution.
EscapeVelocity wrote:
Contemporary European “nationalist” (racist) parties are supporting Zionism for the same reason that Nazis supported Zionism in the 1930s — they would love to push both Muslims and Jews out of Europe. They don’t “love” Israelis and Jews any more than Christian Zionists do — in fact, at a fundamental and “existential” level they hate them.
Most Jews are much too smart to be taken in by this nonsense.
The European Nationalist parties support Israel against the Internationalist Left and Imperialist Islam.
Same with the Jews fleeing Muslims in Malmo…where the Swedish Democrats are the only party concerned about the rampant hostility towards Jews by the Muslim immigrants.
In both cases, they are natural allies against common enemies. First they came for the Jews…
I asked you which ones support Israel. Give up specific examples.
What’s that got to do with your theory of national parties aligning with Israel?
The only groups aligning with Israel are neo Nazi groups. How ironic that you consider them to be natural allies?
“”In both cases, they are natural allies against common enemies. First they came for the Jews…”"…escape
Oh brother!……you don’t understand the beast of ‘extreme’ nationalism based on ethnics. For these kinds of ethnic nationalist, Muslims are the first course and Jews and others will be the desert. Do you think nationalist purist stop at just one ethnic?
Haven’t we seen this movie before?
Escape Velocity, comments like yours just prove what a delusionary bubble “pro-Israel” consciousness is. You haven’t got the faintest idea about europe (apart from your wish to be thought of as Europeans – remind me why Israeli teams play in the euro leagues and Israel is in the Eurovision song contest again?)
The likelihood of Europe following down the Israeli path of myopic racism and paranoid nationalism is slim to none – pan-european open borders being a large contributor to this.
Furthermore,
I dont see a broad coalition forming against Israel as was formed against Apartheid South Africa. Part of the reason for that is that the new government in South Africa is racist. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
No one saw a broad coalition forming against Apartheid South Africa until there was one. As with Apartheid South Africa, the US is working overtime to douse the flames, but this will be usntoppable if Israel attacks Iran.
What are you talking about? Everyone saw a broad coalition forming against Apartheid in South Africa.
Only after decades of effort. Prior to that, the US and UK were blocking it.
These people [Florida Jewish voters] are hawkish
No need to use the “hawkish” euphemism. Use “war-mongers”.
RE: “I continue to believe that Netanyahu will be gone within six months or so, that an Israeli leader can’t stay leader if he creates daylight between the U.S. and Israel. . .” ~ Weiss
MY COMMENT: That is so 1990s! Take my word for it, Netanyahu will gain popularity in Israel by “standing up” to Obama. After all, our president is not at all popular with Israelis (less than 10% favorable), partly (I suspect) because he is not “white” and they therefore do not see him as being “one of them”.
RE: “I continue to believe that Netanyahu will be gone within six months or so, that an Israeli leader can’t stay leader if he creates daylight between the U.S. and Israel. . .” ~ Weiss
AND RE: That is so [early] 1990s [when Israelis got rid of Shamir]. ~ me (above)
PHYLLIS BENNIS: “Reflecting the huge political gain that Prime Minister Netanyahu has won from his year of escalating threats against Iran, his UN speech barely touched the Palestinian question.”
SOURCE – link to mondoweiss.net
neck and neck
“… I continue to believe that Netanyahu will be gone within six months or so, that an Israeli leader can’t stay leader if he creates daylight between the U.S. and Israel, as Netanyahu has done in recent weeks…”
Oh no — that’s the beauty of it.
What decides how long Netanyahu stays prime minister of Israel isn’t what happens in the US, but what happens in Israel.
There’s every reason to hope Netanyahu can stick around to finish the job he’s started.
He’s the king of the Silver Dollar, and he rules his tear gas kingdom
And his sceptre is a wine glass and a bar-stool is his throne
And the jesters, they flock around him, and they fight to win his favours
And see which one will take the king of Israel home to the White House.
Bibi is King according to Time Magazine.
King Bibi | May 28, 2012:
link to time.com
What will the Time cover look like when the evil king is gone?
link to images.huffingtonpost.com
“This weekend I saw a NY friend who grew up in an Israel-right-or-wrong family, and she said she can’t stand Netanyahu; she’s enraged that he stuck himself into our election. “
This matches the experience I had this morning.
A person I know who insists Israel is good and normally adopts a position of truculent silence and professed disinterest when it comes to criticism of her was openly outraged about Netanyahu running ads in Florida.
Go Bibi!
Apartheid fell in South Africa because Communism fell and the Cold War ended. Consequently, Western powers no longer had a reason to secretly prop up apartheid South Africa.
What could have the same effect as the fall of Communism on Western support for Israel?
lysias, western support for Israel could fall as a result of the decline of the US economically. The US is already part of the way there by turning into a debtor nation. Just how long will America be able to over-reach without serious economic consequences? Of course English/Spanish/French/Dutch/Portuguese history with the ending of empires suggests that the process is messy and conflict-ridden.
lysias says: “Apartheid fell in South Africa because Communism fell and the Cold War ended. Consequently, Western powers no longer had a reason to secretly prop up apartheid South Africa.
What could have the same effect as the fall of Communism on Western support for Israel?”
I think your analysis is mistaken. South Africa was doomed while everyone still assumed the Soviet Union was a permanent fixture in the world
South Africa fell because Western values had become such that South Africa was impossible to tolerate.
Israel’s already there. All that really has to be done is to publicize the fact.
Netanyahu is a train wreck who attracts lots of attention and lots of bad opinions. The perfect man for the job of PM wrt calling attention to Israel’s crimes and especially its absurd influence over US politics. I hope he stays in office long enough to do real and lasting damage to Israel’s image in the US. The last thing we need is for Americans to be seduced by another resonable sounding and smooth talking “moderate” who none the less supports the same fascist policies in Israel. Israel isn’t going to change any time soon regardless of who is PM. However, Netanyahu provides a good catalyst for a change in Americas opinions about Israel.
Phil’s prediction that Netanyahu will be gone in 6 months would be music to my ears, if only I was foolish enough to believe him, which I’m not. There will be an Israeli election within a year. (By law there must be an election within the next 14 months, I believe.) Who will defeat Netanyahu in the Likud party? No one. Who will defeat the Likud party? No one.
(Of course if Israel attacks Iran all bets are off. I think we can dismiss the possibility of an American attack against Iran in the next 14 months, although such a war would also stir things up to the point of all bets being off.)
technical point: “Neck and neck” or “neck ‘n neck”, as in a horse race where the horses are right next to each other stretching out their necks. Neck in neck- never heard of it.
uh oh. gotta fix that one!
i’ve got six months, yonah