Yesterday afternoon, NPR’s All Things Considered aired a remarkable exchange about Israel-Palestine. It came during a foreign-policy roundtable hosted by Guy Raz and featuring Richard Perle, Jane Harman, and Stephen Walt. The exchange was remarkable for several reasons: In addition to the neoconservative Perle and the rightwing Jane Harman, it included Walt, the realist co-author of The Israel Lobby; and host Guy Raz seemed to bend over backwards to convey Walt’s view. You will see that Walt calls Perle’s view of the peace process “nonsense,” and Perle gets no comeback. Also notice that Jane Harman understands that the Jewish state is at risk. Excerpts:
RAZ: So what can the next president realistically do on the Israel-Palestine front? What do you think they can do and should do?
WALT: It is not a promising time to pursue Israeli-Palestinian peace… I don’t think, therefore, you’re likely to see a big push similar to the one that Obama made in the first year. I don’t think that’s going to happen under a Romney administration. And the result of which, the possibility of a two-state solution will recede further and further into the distance, which, I think, threatens Israel’s long-term future, which is deeply tragic…
RAZ: I just read a statistic today that the population – the Israeli population on the West Bank of settlers has grown at a much, much faster rate than the overall Israeli population over the past five years. Jane Harman, did you want to chime in there?
HARMAN: I did. I think there’s an urgency to resolving this problem. I think there’s an urgency for Israel, there’s an urgency for Palestine, there’s an urgency for us. And frankly, as the clock ticks, the ability to protect Israel as a Jewish state declines because of the huge youth bulge in the Arab populations. It’s unsustainable.
And I have been disappointed, frankly, in our administration and in the governments in both sides in the region in not making this a higher priority. They, you know, they always bring the baggage of we will talk, but this, that, and the other thing has to be resolved. I think the moment was better a year ago, perhaps, but it’s good enough now.
And Bibi Netanyahu, if he’s re-elected by a wide margin, which is what most people expect, could form a coalition in his government that would enable him to take some braver steps for peace. And I think the Palestinian leadership has to resolve this issue with Hamas, which is weakened in light of Syria, in particular. And maybe there’s a unity government that could be formed there that would give up its bellicose conversation about Israel and become a partner for peace on that side.
I mean, all the people in the region would win if this could happen. And I do think that Israel’s survival as a Jewish state is very dicey if this doesn’t happen and also because of other challenges from a neighborhood that’s in turmoil.
RAZ: Richard Perle, the clock is ticking down, as Jane Harman said. Why shouldn’t the next president push a settlement, impose a final status agreement on these two sides?
PERLE: Well, I don’t think he would succeed any more than the temptation to do that, which was hedged a bit from time to time as happened over many years. Some problems can’t be solved, or at least they can’t be solved under existing conditions. And the existing condition that seems to be the most important is the unwillingness of the Palestinians, with all the baggage they carry from the rest of the Arab world, to accept the existence of the Jewish state. They’ve never really done so.
And to this day, under the diplomatic surface, there continues a set of attitudes that I believe make peace impossible. For example, just a few days ago, a suicide bomber who had killed 21 people received the highest honor that could be bestowed by the Palestine Committee of Arab Lawyers. That attitude runs very deep, and it runs unopposed, largely. I have not heard this president or, for that matter, his predecessors say much about the chronic celebration of suicide bombers in the Palestinian territories. Until you begin to change the mentality, you’re not going to see much of a change on the diplomatic surface.
RAZ: I want to give Stephen Walt the last word or two on this issue. Do you think that what Richard Perle has just talked about is a serious obstacle to come into a peace agreement?
WALT: Frankly, I think most of what Richard just said is nonsense. There’s certainly attitudes within the Palestinian community that are rejectionist, but the Palestinian authority has said for over a decade now that it is eager to have a two-state solution. The problem is it’s continuing to watch the Israeli government expand settlements throughout the West Bank and essentially gobble up what should be the territory of a Palestinian state in the future.
This is a case where if the United States were able to bring pressure to bear on both sides, not just one, we might have some hope of getting a diplomatic solution. But given that the United States is not willing to do that, I think we’re going to see the situation that Jane Harman, I think, most fears – and correctly fears – namely, a two-state solution disappears as a possibility and Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state is imperiled largely because the United States was unable to act as a good friend to its various friends in the region – Israel, most of all.
The best moment in this exchange is when Harman says that the future of the Jewish state is “dicey.” She packages her concern in the usual racist language — talk about an Arab youth bulge, as if describing an Arab woman’s pregnant belly — but notice that she is saying we are losing our ability to protect Israel from that future. I.e., the lobby can’t do this heavy lifting much longer. She’s a realist at heart. She is hinting that when push comes to shove, even the liberal American Zionists are going to have to side with democracy.
Though they won’t give up without a fight. And the fascination of the exchange is just what I have always predicted: that the lib/center Zionists need a coalition with realists to make anything happen: J Street needs Scowcroft, Harman needs Walt. Which means that if Obama wins, they are going to mount a last-gasp two state solution push, which will fail, partly because so many realists have stopped believing in it.
Lastly, let me note that three out of the four participants in this exchange are Jewish–another sign of the prominence we have in the Establishment. We are not outsiders.
Re “Deeply tragic”, how about this?
link to nybooks.com
“Through centuries of exclusion and persecution, diaspora Jews had learned the survival value of what Hilberg called the “alleviation-compliance response,” which proved not only ineffective but insidiously self-destructive when faced with the unprecedented Nazi assault, for which no past experience could prepare them.2 In the heat of the moment, one key difference between Arendt and Hilberg was entirely ignored. For Arendt, the behavior of the Jewish leaders, who allegedly “enjoyed” the “enormous power” with which the Nazis temporarily vested them, constituted a colossal moral failure. For Hilberg, it was a systemic and perceptual failure of a leadership that sought to save its people but, “caught in the straitjacket of their own history,” could not understand and adjust to the incomprehensible assault quickly enough.”
The answer to the Shoah was the cult of Zionism which tortured the alleviation-compliance response to death in front of its parents ..but that now seems incapable of leading anywhere other than Masada… the history is so heavy …the assault of justice is incomprehensible
Yes, that’s how easily the tale of the jews surfaces in the talk about the Jews. Although, strictly I should not judge why you choose the passage you choose.
How lucky we are, that we can judge so easily. There are always some, way back then that seem to support us, we do not know the context slightly more precisely, do we? Ultimately neither Arendt and Hilberg can explain, are you realizing this? They hypothesise that is the murky region in which we are moving now. But surely we can simply declare it truth.
There was no “allevation-compliance” response to “dead in front of its parents”, man, women and children were separated in the camps.
You are caught in tales seafroid, but interesting you respond to Phil’s article with Hannah Arendt and Raul Hilberg. Arendt, by the way was one of Hilberg’s most favorite female enemy. Read his autobiography.
It was a nightmare. No horror film could capture it. But Zionism is a trap.
Do you think militant Zionism can be defanged and live a normal civilian life? Do you think the Arabs will ever be left in peace by the Zionists? That would be the best outcome. But it would also be the hardest road given where Israel is now. The education system would have to be rebooted. Society would have to be restructured.
Maybe alleviation-compliance and some wise diplomacy would have been a better option than nuclear weapons.
It is very messy.
“The education system would have to be rebooted. Society would have to be restructured.”
That will be, I’m sure, a simple matter once Israel is conquered, defeated, disarmed and occupied. When do we get started?
“That will be, I’m sure, a simple matter once Israel is conquered, defeated, disarmed and occupied. When do we get started?”
I’ve got a pocket knife, $2.53 and a swell attitude. Let’s do this thang…
This was one of my more emotional unreflected responses. … I am not even sure what exactly you are trying to suggest above, I realize now. The Holocaust is over, we can of course make comparisons or study parallels but ultimately they cannot help us in a changed world and in a completely different context.
But considering your question. I do not have a crystal ball. All I know is that the US is very, very central in this respect, and seems to be rigidly restricted by many, many laws created for the issue.
As I have to admit, I noticed again and again; and obviously took the Palestinian side confronted with images of destruction. But once the warriors were out of the headlines, I moved on to business as usual, partly yes, even retreated back to hasbara, as I realize now. And in this context I feel very grateful for all the work and study that has been done over the decades without me paying the least attention.
So far no jail for Congresswoman Harman for sharing US secrets with Israel.
No accountability what so ever for Harman interfering in the Aipac espionage investigation and trial. Zero. No accountability for Perle’s past and more recent successes in promoting, cherry picking and disseminating false intelligence about WMD’s in Iraq, received economic compensation for promoting Israeli defense companies when he was Assistant Secretary of Defense. or how about the F.B.I’s alleged wiretap of Perle back in the 70′s talking about classified U.S. intelligence to Israeli officials. Why does NPR use Perle as a resource?
American establishment-members do not punish American establishment-members for normal (even if illegal) political acts and views: they don’t wish to make a precedent that could later embrace their own sins.
i heard the exchange on the way back from a CT/NYC visit. my wife started laughing when walt threw perle’s asinine commentary back in his face. it was quite a pleasure for me as well. my greatest discomfort with the whole exchange, however, (and frankly weiss’s omission of the problematic phraseology from his post) is the continued use of the term ‘jewish and democratic’ in reference to israel, even by walt. he remarked (twice, i think) about the threat to israel’s character as a ‘jewish and democratic state’, the threat coming from israeli intransigence. can we please get rid of that oxymoronic ‘nonsense’?
Think Ms. Harman would get away with warning about the ‘youth bulge’ of blacks and browns in America?
That she isn’t challenged by this language by the moderator is pretty telling by how far the racist language of Zionism has been accepted in mainstream American journalism.
It’s also a reminder that so many so-called ‘liberal’ Zionists are just as motivated(but less vulgar about it) with racist fears as their more right-wing brethren.
I was thinking the same. And the Hareetz poll about the other day shows 59% of Israelis have segregationist attitudes. The values of the US today and Israel are clearly at odds.
link to 972mag.com
Chu,
Zionism as a culture (an ethno-religious nationalist culture) bears much more in common with the Confederacy and the Old South than with the contemporary United States. And that is why Israel’s most enthusiastic supporters in the United States tend to be Southern Bible-thumpers, white racists, neo-Confederates and Old Testament cultists. The Israeli government has carefully groomed this racist sector of American political culture for decades now — call it their Southern strategy.
There can be no meaningful alliance for peace in the Palestine-Israel conflict and, therefore, in the Middle East.
The charter of the Likud party of Israel, whose leader is the incumbent prime minister, Binyam Netanyahu, categorically states that its goal is a ‘Greater Israel’ with all Muslims, Arabs and Christians ‘transferred’ to neighboring states. ‘Transfer’ in this context is a pseudonym for ethnic cleansing. That has been the accepted right-wing agenda for many years. It has never been repudiated either by Netanyahu or anyone else.
When the above is fully appreciated, the strategy of ‘facts on the ground’ makes sense as a deliberate policy to thwart the wishes of the United Nations and the international community. As Netanyahu’s government continues its land grab on the West Bank and in East Jerusalem and as the so-called ‘pricetag’ terrorists continue to burn down Arab olive groves in the West Bank with impunity, it becomes clear that Israel under this government does not want peace. Apparently, they want war in order to secure their illegal expropriation of occupied Arab land in pursuance of their aims.
They have the ability to do this for two reasons: 1. the US government under the influence of the AIPAC lobby supports them and 2. the EU unwittingly gives them the funds to implement their illegal policies by the proceeds of bilateral trade with Europe.
This is the tragedy funded by America and the EU.
Re douglasreed
….The charter of the Likud party of Israel…..
Do you happen to have an English copy of that Likud Charter???
I tried very hard to find one….. in vain.
And also requested the Likud party repeatedly for the same. They did not even bother….
I would appreciate a suitable link.
Dear Erasmus:
Try this
link to en.wikipedia.org
and scroll down to “Charter”
I cannot find a still-existing link for the whole Likud charter. There are many quotes like this:
It appears that it has never been repudiated by the Likud Party. Not sure whether repudiation-type mumbles from party members makes any difference. One does wonder, however, what this reference to “The Government of Israel” means if it was, indeed, embedded, in a charter for a particular political party. Endorsement? Mere un-dated history? Sneaky refusal to say what it implies?
Googled Likud and charter. Saw nothing about transfer in their charter. It very well might be in their hearts, but it does not seem to be in their charter.
RE: “Lastly, let me note that three out of the four participants in this exchange are Jewish . . .”
MY COMMENT: OMG, Phil’s countin’ the Jews again, y’all (LOL)! ! !
♦ THE COUNTIN’ CHRONICLES (A COUNTIN’ COMPENDIUM) ♦
• 7/09/12
RE: “And the journalistic question of the hour is: Are fears of losing New York money driving Obama’s policy-making in the Middle East?” ~ Weiss
MY COMMENT: New York money? Is that some kind of euphemism? Whatever the case, it’s a smart move! You don’t need to be seen by that stinky old “Red Sox”* as “countin’ the jews”! ! !
SEE: “My response to ‘DailyKos’ smear”, by Philip Weiss – link to mondoweiss.net
RE: “Is that an appropriate question for an American political campaign. Imagine if Christians were as involved in a religious/political issue in our public life, what the coverage would be.” ~ Weiss
SPEAKING OF EUPHEMISMS: Whatever coverage there might be in the mainstream media would probably not use the word “Christian”, but would instead discretely refer to them as “social conservatives” or “value voters”. That’s essential to Manufacturing Consent (and maximizing profits).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• 5/10/12
RE: “‘Follow the money’ rule suddenly applies when the issue is gay marriage” ~ Weiss
MY COMMENT: OMG, y’all! Phil’s countin’ again!
Countin’ this,
and countin’ that.
Countin’ the gay donors,
and countin’ the Jewish donors.
Will it ever end?
It’s a shame he missed his “true calling”, y’all.
He should have been a “bean counter”!
P.S. CHECK OUT: Pi, 1998, R, 84 minutes
Darren Aronofsky’s jarring black-and-white brain-bender is a haunting examination of one man’s numerical obsession. The story follows a fragile number theorist who’s on the trail of a 216-digit number that could unlock the secrets of the universe.
Netflix Availability: Streaming and DVD
• NETFLIX LISTING – link to movies.netflix.com
• Pi movie trailer (VIDEO, 01:41) – link to youtube.com
• π, Trailer (VIDEO, 01:57) – link to youtube.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• 3/31/12
RE: “Jews utilize 85% of historical Palestine (and counting)”*
AN EARLY SPRING EVENING’S MUSICAL INTERLUDE, brought to you courtesy of the makers of new Ziocaine Xtreme®: It’s guaran-damn-teed to knock you on your butt!™
*“The writing’s on the wall. It won’t go away. It’s an omen!”
• The Prodigy, “Omen” (VIDEO, 03:19) – link to youtube.com!
[TO BE CONTINUED, UNLESS I "COME TO MY SENSES" FIRST]
♦ THE COUNTIN’ CHRONICLES, CONT’D
• September 16, 2011
RE: “I want to know how many Jews are wealthy, how many aren’t…” ~ Weiss
OMG: A lucky man who made the grade? Here goes Phil again with the gol’ darn countin’, for Christ’s sake! What’s next, counting the number of holes it takes to fill the Albert Hall? And though the holes are rather small, still he has to count them all? Not to mention the 4000 holes in the road in Blackburn Lancashire, one twenty-sixth of a hole per person, according to a council survey.
Poor, poor, pitiful Phil. It’s all so tragic.
The Beatles: A Day in the Life (VIDEO, 05:07) – link to youtube.com
P.P.S. Colbert: Perry prayer event ‘erases’ line between church and state – link to rawstory.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• September 5, 2011
RE: “Mea culpa, Irene” ~ Weiss
MY COMMENT: That just makes things worse in that it highlights your obstinate, obdurate refusal to effusively apologize* to “Red Sox” for committing the Cardinal Sin of “counting the Jews”!
Repent Phil, repent!
* Be forewarned that a mere “expression of regret” is unacceptable!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• August 14, 2011
RE: “What happened to the WASPs?” ~ a member of Phil’s wife’s extended family in Philadelphia
SEE: Life in an Age of Looting: “Some Will Rob You with a Sixgun and Some with a Fountain Pen” ~ by Phil Rockstroh, CommonDreams.org, 08/12/11
ENTIRE COMMENTARY – link to commondreams.org
P.S. Incredible! Absolutely incredible!
Now Phil is countin’ the WASPS!
I won’t have it! I tell ya, I won’t have it! I just will not permit it!
Vex me not, Phil!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• August 10, 2011
RE: “The news that 81 members of Congress are junketing to Israel and Palestine has hit a nerve…the Atlantic wire is on it…” ~ Weiss
MY COMMENT: And John Hudson at The Atlantic Wire (as opposed to that stinky old Red Sox) even picked up on your sarcasm/humor, Phil!
Keep on countin’, Phil. Countin’ Congressmen. Countin’ Senators. Countin’ this, and countin’ that. But never, ever, dare count the Jews (per Red Sox)!
FROM THE ATLANTIC WIRE (John Hudson):
♦ THE COUNTIN’ CHRONICLES, CONT’D
• May 27, 2011
RE: “…the source added, ‘that about $10 million [in Jewish donations to the Obama campaign] evaporated in that speech’.”
MY COMMENT:
Countin’!
Just a countin’!
Countin’ the number of Jewish donors!
Countin’ up the money donated (or not) by the Jews!
“Red Sox” is gonna be so p.o.’ed!
P.S. I’ve been thinkin’ again, y’all. I’ll try not to make it a habit.
You know, about all those mean, hateful things that nasty “Red Sox” creep said about how our Phil’s always a countin’ Jews. You know: “one Jew…two Jews…three Jews…a dollar; all for the Jews, stand up and holler!”
Where was I? Oh yeah, Phil and his compulsive countin’.
Well, last night this blindingly bright light suddenly came in through the bathroom window while I was a doin’ my bidness. I won’t burden y’all with all the sordid details, but suffice it to say I had beaucoup revelations that I will be sharing with y’all over the coming weeks. So y’all fasten y’all’s seat belts, y’all!
Now, where the hell was I? Oh yeah, Phil and his compulsive Jew countin’.
Well, do y’all ‘member that movie about that Rain Man dude that would just about go berserk if he couldn’t watch that
Judge Wapner guy hold his People’s Court every weekday? Well one of my Divine-like** revelations involved that little feller and his constant countin’. y’all ‘member that? He counted everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING! Poor feller would count the cracks in the street, the number of Alpha-bits in his cereal bowl, and even the little doodads on the necktie that Scientologist sometimes wore. And he really liked Counting Cars. ‘Specially the Blue ones, y’all.***
Where the devil was I, y’all? Oh yeah, Phil and his penchant for countin’.
So anyways, I have it on “good authority” that our Phil is what they call aughtistic, like that Rain Man fella. That’s why he’s alway’s a countin’ everythin’. He can’t help it, y’all! He can’t stop himself! So it’s really not right to make fun of him like that “Red Sox” [expletive deleted] did the other day. Pardon my foul language y’all, but that “Red Sox” is worse than Breitbart, or even Drudge! He seems a heap more like a “Blue Sox” to me. Let’s just say I don’t take kindly to it. Not at all! Not one damn bit, y’all!
Why, it wouldn’t surprise me one little bit if our poor, woe out Phil was a sittin’ in front of his computer monitor right this very minute countin’ every single pixel on the screen! When all he has to do is multiply out the screen resolution! Of course, he did go to Harvard, not MIT. Poor, poor, pitiful Phil! And I ‘specially feel sorry for his missus. What did she ever do to deserve having to put up with Phil’s autism? Countin’ this. Countin’ that. Always a countin’! That can get mighty damn old, mighty damn quick-like; don’t y’all think? She sho’ as hell ain’t no “lucky duck”! That’s for dadgum sure!
* She Came In Through the Bathroom Window, The Beatles (Abbey Road) [VIDEO, 01:58] – link to youtube.com
** Divine – link to en.wikipedia.org
*** counting blue cars, original acoustic version (VIDEO, 10:00) – link to youtube.com
DICKERSON3870,
In 2012, it’s all about counting; everything is number (Pythagoras). We’re in the age of full-throttle Big Data and data mining. And Harvard and MIT agree on that.
Most of your posts are interesting and useful but this one was strange. Perhaps I don’t get your off-kilter sense of humor.
Before I read your post this morning I tweeted this: Get used to the idea of manipulating billions of lists of billions of items each to understand anything.
Google gets it and is leading the way. Number is the royal road to reality. Numbers reveal what is really going on in the universe.
Harman:
Amazing how everyone just let’s this one slide through. Talk of demographic bombs is fine as long as we’re referring to Arabs/Palestinians, right?
Harman: “And Bibi Netanyahu, if he’s re-elected by a wide margin, which is what most people expect, could form a coalition in his government that would enable him to take some braver steps for peace.”
Is there anyone on the globe, leftist, rightist, whatever, who could explain what that could mean? Concerning “could form a coalition”, nobody predicts that Netanyahu will have different new opportunities. For a week or two he had a coalition with Kadima to make some braver steps toward the principle that at least among Israeli Jews all have equal rights. Cooler heads prevailed and this foolish bravery was abandoned.
Actually, the situation is that would Netanyahu show some “braver step” he would be skinned and roasted alive by his own dear Likudniks UNLESS he could show that he is forced to do so by bad meanies from USA, while squealing like some non-kosher animal. Before or either elections the opportunities to do so are about equal. And perhaps Harman is aware what happens in USA after that sorrowful squeal is sounded. She had been there, done that.
Mondo is gonna be around a long, long time. After years of discussing The Lobby owning US policy and congress, the stealing of Palestine, Zionist, the corruption of the US, the failure of international law, and on and on…..we will all be here old and gray, discussing the next reality, Israel Apartheid…….assuming Israel doesn’t just skip apartheid and go ahead and ‘transfer’ all the Palestines to Jordon or where ever. Which would not surprise me at all.
israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid-regime-in-israel.premium-1.471644
Survey: Most Israeli Jews would support apartheid regime in Israel
Survey, conducted by Dialog on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, exposes anti-Arab, ultra-nationalist views espoused by a majority of Israeli Jews
link to haaretz.com
trying link again
Richard Perle is a Zionist tool.
He harps on the PA’s ‘celebration’ of terrorists as if that behavior is unique to the PA.
Zionists often disassemble and whitewash Israeli criminality by changing the subject to Darfur, Syria, blah blah – all of which they don’t give a shit about.
Their aim is to shift blame and turn the tables of the discussion because they are guilty of colonialism and apartheid. Hence, the come armed with only the antisemitism-button and other dishonest logical fallacious nonsense.
Perle should know that Israel has elected terrorists to their highest political offices. They have named streets and military decorations after their terrorists. They have celebrated their terrorist actions. They have let their terrorists and murderers off with light sentences or none at all.
Etc. etc.
Anything the Palestinians can be accused of doing criminally, Israel has done first, done longer, and done so with total immunity.