Palestinian activist Abir Kopty: Oslo should go, the peace process serves Israeli interests

Abir
Abir Kopty (Photo: American Friends Service Committee)

Abir Kopty’s month started out with a police interrogation. The 37-year-old Palestinian activist and blogger born in Nazareth was summoned by the Israeli police June 2 and went in for questioning in Northern Israel the next day.

The reason? Kopty wrote a blog post last year inveighing against a plan to recruit Palestinian Christians into the Israeli military. Kopty (a contributor to Mondoweiss) said the Israeli police told her she was violating a law against incitement to violence and terrorism, and that they asked for a DNA sample. She refused.

“It’s political persecution,” said Kopty, who explained why, in her eyes, the police were tracking her blog posts and interrogating her–clear examples of how Israeli security forces monitor Palestinian citizens of Israel. “One is to frighten us and silence us so we do not criticize those kinds of efforts, so they would more freely recruit Palestinian Christians and make this plan happen. And the second is to deter other people, using us, from saying anything about this, from public criticism.”

But while Kopty will have to deal with the Israeli police when she gets back home–she says they told her another police file was opened because of her refusal to submit a DNA sample– she’s worlds away from that scene now. Kopty is on a national tour in the U.S. organized by the American Friends Service Committee, a Quaker group active in peace and justice efforts. The tour takes her from New York, where she spoke last Saturday, to Chicago, San Francisco and beyond. Kopty, who I met up with at a hotel in the financial district in Manhattan, is speaking on popular resistance in Palestine, the Oslo Accords and the boycott, divestment and sanctions movement–issues she explored during our conversation.

“We’re bypassing the mainstream media that is ignoring the resistance and we’re coming to speak directly to the American people about resistance,” Kopty told me.

Kopty is well-positioned to explain these issues to an American audience. A former City Councilwoman in Nazareth and the former spokeswoman for the Popular Struggle Coordination Committee, a network of various West Bank village leaders resisting the Israeli separation barrier and settlement expansion, Kopty knows the Palestinian struggle inside and out. She was a key player in the organizing around Bab al-Shams, the Palestinian protest village set up in the E1 area, a vitally important swath of land that Israel plans to build settlements in and which would foreclose a viable Palestinian state. Bab al-Shams captured international headlines and was seen as a new and creative wave of Palestinian resistance which highlighted Israeli confiscation of land and settlements.

Still, while a number of tent villages sprouted up after Bab al-Shams, it was a short-lived effort. And Kopty is blunt about the larger failures and successes of the popular resistance model. “The popular struggle has managed to maintain the spirit of resistance among Palestinians. However, it did not manage to spread and turn the struggle into a mass movement, and I think this is the biggest challenge,” said Kopty. “The successes in my eyes are not really big because we did not make any difference.” Still, she emphasized that Palestinians continue to resist Israel in a number of ways, like farming while under occupation, hunger striking and rebuilding homes after they are demolished.

Kopty lays much of the blame for this state of affairs on the Oslo Accords and the Palestinian Authority, which she says heavily impacted the will of Palestinians to resist. Signed throughout the 1990s, the accords gave Palestinians limited autonomy in the West Bank while forestalling agreements on vital issues like refugees and Jerusalem. The process, which did nothing to halt the galloping pace of settlement expansion, set up the Palestinian Authority (PA), which Kopty lambasted as a subcontractor for the occupation. The PA is a key employer of West Bank Palestinians–and some in Gaza–but it cracks down on resistance to Israel and dissent against PA leaders, causing consternation among segments of the Palestinian population.

The issue of Oslo emerged at the forefront of Palestinian protests last year that were sparked by a deteriorating economic situation made all the worse by Israeli restrictions and economic exploitation. Though the protests first focused on Prime Minister Salam Fayyad and economic hardship, they morphed into a movement showing broad discontent with the PA. Chants at the demonstrations included calls for ending the accords, a step Kopty strongly advocates for. Yet, the collapse of the PA could lead to even more economic hardship, as roughly a million people rely on their salaries, which in turn are paid because of outside aid from Western and Arab states. This goes to the heart of the central Palestinian paradox: how to end an occupation which is maintained through a reliable subcontractor in the PA, an entity that is also crucial to sustaining the lives of Palestinians.

Still, Kopty foresees the emergence of new challenges to the PA. “People have lost patience and lost trust in the leadership who have done nothing for the Palestinians,” she said. “They have collaborated in turning the Palestinian cause from a liberation movement into a development project…At the end of the day we are facing two layers of control: there is the PA, but there is the occupation, which is controlling the PA and maintaining the PA because it’s helping sustain the occupation.”

But it is the PA that the U.S. is counting on right now. Kopty’s tour in the U.S. comes as Secretary of State John Kerry continues to shuffle back and forth between Washington and the Middle East in an effort to restart the moribund peace process. PA officials say they are under heavy pressure to return to talks with Israel, though they have so far resisted. The PA finds itself stuck between a population disdainful of peace talks that have gone nowhere and an U.S. administration bent on twisting their arms to talk with Israel.

Kopty voiced harsh criticism of the peace process.

“The negotiations have just served Israeli interests and covered up the Israeli policy of continuous colonization, land confiscation, house demolitions, ethnic cleansing policies. This is what negotiations are for Palestinians.”

And she had equally harsh words for the U.S.

“We are not interested in the American broker because the Americans are supplying Israel with the military aid that is killing us and is giving unlimited support, unquestioning support to Israel.”

Kopty added that the international community’s peace process efforts have reduced the conflict to the occupation. But the issues at the heart of the conflict expand far beyond that.

“There is ending the occupation but there is also the rights of the Palestinians inside 48, and there is the right of return, which is the core of the Palestinian cause,” she said. “One of the goals of the Palestinian people is to decolonize Palestine, not just ending military occupation–that’s not enough.”

About Alex Kane

Alex Kane is an assistant editor for Mondoweiss and the World editor for AlterNet. Follow him on Twitter @alexbkane.
Posted in Activism, Israel/Palestine, Occupation | Tagged

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  1. seafoid says:

    Abir is of course right. But Israel is shooting itself in the foot

    Here’s Ari Shavit writing in 2004

    link to haaretz.com
    By Ari Shavit 22 April 2004

    “By the time this article goes to print, there may have been another terror attack. By the time it reaches the homes of the readers, Hamas could have carried out a sensational act of revenge. And in spite of this, in April 2004, we can already say out loud what we have been observing since the beginning of the year: There is a reasonable chance that after 1,300 days of war, a new strategic reality is beginning to take shape around us – a reality of an Israeli victory.
    We must be cautious; the outcome has yet to be determined; peace and quiet are still far off; Palestinian terror has not been eradicated; it will continue to stalk Israel for a long time. Moreover, Palestinian society has yet to undergo the revolution in awareness that is the only thing that will make it possible to put an end to the conflict. However, after three and a half years of a cruel existential struggle, we can now state that the attempt by Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat to destroy the Jewish homeland by force has failed. ”

    And here is Ari Shavit writing today

    link to haaretz.com

    “Few people paid attention to the news that during the first quarter of 2013, there were 865 housing starts in the settlements. That was a 176 percent increase over the parallel quarter last year and a 355 percent increase over the fourth quarter of 2012. Although settlers are only four out of every 100 Israelis, of every 100 housing starts this year, 8.5 were in the settlements. While in sovereign Israel the scope of new construction is slowing, new construction in Judea and Samaria is now proceeding at the highest pace in seven years. The trend is clear: Within a short time the number of settlers will increase dramatically, as will their ability to block any attempt to divide the land. If it continues this way, the Netanyahu-Lapid-Bennett government will put an end to the two-state solution, the Jewish democratic entity, and the Zionist dream.

    In the immortal words of Musashi Miyamoto

    “There is timing in the whole life of the warrior, in his thriving and declining, in his harmony and discord. Similarly, there is timing in the Way of the merchant, in the rise and fall of capital. All things entail rising and falling timing. You must be able to discern this. ”

    link to en.wikiquote.org

  2. Citizen says:

    She’s right. Kerry’s economic incentives, the only thing Obama has given him with which to pursue a fair ending to the I-P conflict (other than even more free US taxpayer military/security products and cash to Israel), is just the lastest cheap bribery to bait Palestinans to give up the essential human rights the whole world (except US & Israel) thinks they are minimially entitled to in the 21st Century. When HAMAS won the elections by the fairest elections in Middle East history, the US and Israel dumped the outcome in the dumpster, and has renewed joint attempt to make Palestinians subservient to Israeli interests ever since. Divide and conquer.

  3. Citizen says:

    Kopty just appeared in Chicago. She’s on tour here in USA:
    link to mecaforpeace.org

  4. HarryLaw says:

    Frustration with the PA will build up now that Abbas has agreed to suspend his applications to join the UN agencies, and not to formally join the ICC, Kerry already thinks Abbas will give another him six months, although he has changed his plans into phased proposals with confidence building measures, how long will that take? What I would like to know is, since Palestine is already a state how will putting off membership of the various UN agencies and the ICC, [the application for which, is their right] effect any peace talks, they should not, this surrender by the PA is a sop to the Israelis who will build, build, build over the next six months and the extension requested by Israel’s lawyer [Kerry] thereafter. What a farce.

    • Abbas has agreed to suspend his applications to join the UN agencies, and not to formally join the ICC

      for how how long harry? link to haaretz.com

      “Palestinians say they will resume unilateral moves if no breakthrough is reached in Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.”

      besides, palestinians don’t need abbas to go to the UN. there’s a difference between the PA and the PLO. one can dismantle the PA and the PLO will still represent the palestinian people at the UN. abbas didn’t go to the UN representing the PA, but the PLO.

      this surrender by the PA is a sop to the Israelis who will build, build, build over the next six months and the extension requested by Israel’s lawyer [Kerry] thereafter. What a farce.

      i completely agree! palestinians should dump the PA for good.

      • Hostage says:

        besides, palestinians don’t need abbas to go to the UN. there’s a difference between the PA and the PLO. one can dismantle the PA and the PLO will still represent the palestinian people at the UN. abbas didn’t go to the UN representing the PA, but the PLO.

        For obvious reasons your state’s government represents you in the UN. For obvious reasons: 1) Israel has never represented the Jewish people in the UN; and 2) the PLO has never officially represented the Palestinian citizens of Israel in the UN.

        The UN did not recognize Abbas. They recognized the State of Palestine and its organs. Its representatives, officials, and form of government can be altered or replaced without effecting that recognition. The same thing has happened to many other countries without disturbing their status as states.

        BTW, the PLO, the ANC, and SWAPO were all recognized as national liberation movements and invited to be UN observers at a time when that option was only open to States. At the time, the UN Economic and Social Council pointedly refused to alter its rules in order to permit the PLO to join as a non-state member. It went ahead and intentionally ignored the objections from Israel and the United States and admitted the PLO as a full member. The US and Israel have been waging a war of threats and blackmail over recognition of Palestinian statehood by the other UN organs ever since then. When the UN Secretariat caved-in and listed Palestine as an “observer entity”, it was an empty jesture, since its own ESCWA (a part of the Secretariat itself) continued to publish and catalog official rules on UN letterhead which declared that Palestine was a full member state of that organ:

        ESCWA comprises 13 States, viz., Bahrain, Egypt, lraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the Syrian Arab Republic, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen.

        link to ESCWA.un.org

      • Hostage says:

        i completely agree! palestinians should dump the PA for good.

        I have trouble getting my head around an article like this. The people living under South African Apartheid had the good common sense to establish separate national liberation and human rights movements, i.e. the ANC and SWAPO, based upon the fact that one group wanted independence from South Africa, while the other did not.

        The PLO/PA contained elements of an enemy entity engaged in an on-going international armed conflict with Israel. If Israeli Palestinians don’t want to be viewed as a fifth column, then they should abandon the PLO and stop worrying about the now-defunct PA and Oslo Accords. If they can’t do that, then they are sure to attract unwelcome attention from the Israeli State security establishment.

        • eGuard says:

          hophmi: then they should …
          Another example of the devide-and-conquer tactiques employed by Zionists: tell them what to want! It think, hophmi, you already got your hophead around this article.

          hophmi: abandon the PLO … If they can’t do that, then they are sure to attract unwelcome attention from the Israeli State security establishment.

          So these Israelis are suspect when they don’t abandon the very institute Oslo is based upon? Again, your logic is biting its tail and you do not feel anything in your back end.

        • hostage, thanks for your 10:07 pm comment. it clears things up for me.

          your next at 11:13. i am a little confused with your reference to ” The people living under South African Apartheid had the good common sense to establish separate national liberation and human rights movements” as it pertains to the PA. yes, he PA has contained entities engaged in an on-going international armed conflict with Israel, but does that make the PA a “national liberation and human rights movement”?

          also, my comment you copied up top, it wasn’t addressing Israeli Palestinians per se. but i see your point.

        • Hostage says:

          hophmi: abandon the PLO … If they can’t do that, then they are sure to attract unwelcome attention from the Israeli State security establishment.

          That wasn’t Hophmi, that was me. Oslo had nothing to say in connection with Palestinians citizens of Israel living in Nazareth. In fact Israeli Palestinian NGOs denounced the Lieberman plan to strip them of their citizenship and incorporate the territory they inhabit into the jurisdiction of the PA.

          FYI, the PLO satisfies all of the statutory criteria to place it on the US State Department’s list of foreign terror organizations. The President has simply used his authority to temporarily waive the application of the law in the interest of US national security, e.g. See Presidential Determination – Waiver of and Certification of Statutory Provisions Regarding the Palestine Liberation Organization Office link to whitehouse.gov

          Nonetheless, the Goldstone report accused militias affiliated with the al Fatah party and the PLO of committing war crimes by firing rockets and mortars into southern Israel during Operation Cast Lead. So unless the Palestinians of Nazareth wish to be treated like enemy civilians, they should disassociate themselves from the PLO or accept the concomitant scrutiny from the Israeli security establishment that relations with their belligerent brethren will naturally attract during the on-going conflict.

        • Hostage says:

          i am a little confused with your reference to ” The people living under South African Apartheid had the good common sense to establish separate national liberation and human rights movements” as it pertains to the PA.

          I get a little confused by Israeli and Jordanian passport holders lecturing the PLO on the one state solution and normalizing relations with Israel.

          The PA was only a creature of the lapsed Oslo Accords between Israel and the PLO. It ceased to exist when it was redesignated as part of the Government of the State of Palestine several months ago. Palestinian statehood had already been declared before the Oslo Accords were concluded. Statehood, as such, was never a final status issue of the lapsed Accords. Each of the parties formally reserved their respective positions on subjects not specifically addressed in the agreement.

          I was talking about the need for Israeli Palestinians to establish their own national liberation and human rights organization. They need something analogous to the ANC which sought equal rights, but did NOT seek independence from South Africa. Incorporation in another existing state on the basis of equal rights and non-discrimination is a valid mode of exercising the right of self-determination.

          The PLO is analogous to SWAPO/Namibia which demanded and sought complete independence from South Africa. That is also a valid mode of exercising the right of self-determination. Plenty of people advised SWAPO back in the day that it was impossible to establish two states and that there was really only one sovereign state between Cape Town and the Marienfluss. These Israeli and Jordanian members of Palestinian or Israeli civil society are very reminiscent of the divided opinions that existed among the peoples who lived under the South African apartheid regime. In that case there wasn’t a one size fits all solution.

      • HarryLaw says:

        Annie Robbins @ “for how how long harry?” Good question, “After the final deadline the Palestinians will assess the prospects of the U.S. efforts. The Israeli source noted that Kerry has said he would allocate three to six months to the process, suggesting that Abbas might agree to an additional extension.”

        “The Palestinians have also decided to put off applying to the International Criminal Court in The Hague to sign the Rome Statute and thus obtain standing in the court as a state.” [Haaretz 04 April 2013]
        My concern is the status quo is what US/Israel want, to buy time, why do they want to buy time? Obviously to establish more facts on the ground, these are the tactics of the Israelis, clearly spelled out by their representatives over the past 20 years since Oslo. Professor Siegman said recently that “even a six year old knows what’s going on”. The dispossession of the Palestinians is accelerating, if Kerry can pan the talks about talks out for only another 6 months or maybe 12, well that’s better than nothing, how many facts on the ground will be established in the meantime? The status quo would be acceptable if only the Israelis stopped building settlements, clearly they will not do so, the only answer therefore is for the Palestinians to claim their rights through applying to join all the agencies at the UN. The Palestinians must realize their enemies are not going to offer, or concede rights to them, they must be fought for, even at the cost of suffering penalties and other injustices imposed by the occupant and his accomplices.

        • harry, i completely agree US/Israel want to buy time. however, here’s my point wrt “Abbas has agreed to suspend his applications to join the UN agencies, and not to formally join the ICC”:

          “For a limited and specified period of time a new opportunity will be given to international efforts under way to break the deadlock in the peace process,” the resolution read. It went on to say, “In the event Israel thwarts such efforts, we will again turn to international organizations.”

          Both sources gave the timeframe of the suspension of the Palestinian Authority’s efforts to secure member-state status in various UN agencies as around eight weeks starting on March 22, when U.S. President Barack Obama concluded his visit to the region, with a possible four-week extension.

          After the final deadline the Palestinians will assess the prospects of the U.S. efforts. The Israeli source noted that Kerry has said he would allocate three to six months to the process, suggesting that Abbas might agree to an additional extension.

          what kerry would allocate is not the same as what abbas/Fatah Central Committee agreed to in the resolution, according to both sources. 8 weeks plus a 4 week extension is a little less than 3 months from march 22. whatever abbas has committed himself to, wrt suspending applications to join the UN agencies, or formally joining the ICC, is over in less than a week.

        • Hostage says:

          “The Palestinians have also decided to put off applying to the International Criminal Court in The Hague to sign the Rome Statute and thus obtain standing in the court as a state.” [Haaretz 04 April 2013]

          I think people put too much emphasis on joining the UN or the ICC. That’s not necessary before Israeli war crimes can be prosecuted. I also think people put too much emphasis on relatively minor delays. We are talking about crimes with few, if any, statutory limitations going forward from July of 2002. Trials in international tribunals can take decades, and countries are still investigating and prosecuting crimes committed during WWII.

          The Rome Statute allows non-member states to refer crimes committed on their territories to the ICC by voluntarily accepting the Court’s jurisdiction. Palestine has already done that. You only need to look at the situation in the occupied territory of northern Cyprus to see that joining the ICC offers no guarantee that illegal situations will be investigated or prosecuted without additional grassroots or diplomatic political pressure.

          Cyprus is an ICC, EU, and UN member state. Nonetheless, portions of its territory remain under an illegal occupation regime. Worse still, Turkey and Cyprus are both state parties to the European Convention on Human Rights. Some of the displaced victims of the conflict filed a petition with the European Court of Human Rights concerning their right of return and compensation. The Court refused to even hear their case on the basis of international human rights law and advised the victims to first seek compensation from the Turkish courts. Note that the right of return is based in international humanitarian law (the Geneva Conventions and the Additional Protocol), not human rights law. There are other justiciable differences, since Israel has agreed to implement General Assembly resolutions 181(II) and 194(III) and agreements must be kept (pacta sunt servanda). Nonetheless, the Palestinian Solidarity Movement has been totally missing in action with regard to providing support for Palestine’s existing Article 12(3) declaration. That has given the Prosecutors all the cover they need to ignore the situation.

        • @Hostage – - The big picture is full UN recognition with 1967 borders. War crimes are comparatively insignificant issue. Comparatively.

        • Hostage says:

          @Hostage – – The big picture is full UN recognition with 1967 borders. War crimes are comparatively insignificant issue. Comparatively.

          Which Palestinian politician or activist are you quoting? I’ve never heard one yet who claimed that war crimes are a comparatively insignificant issue.

          Once again, Cyprus has UN membership and recognized borders, but that hasn’t solved any of its problems with the Turkish occupation or internally displaced persons.

        • @Hostage – - As I am sure you are aware, the Greek Cypriots rejected a compromise for a federal state, that was accepted by Turkish Cyrpriots.

          Would pursuing war crimes prosecutions impede Palestinian effort to gain full UN membership? Obviously.

        • Hostage says:

          As I am sure you are aware, the Greek Cypriots rejected a compromise for a federal state, that was accepted by Turkish Cyrpriots.

          I’m aware that the TRNC has not been dismantled in accordance with the applicable UN resolutions. So the UN Security Council and General Assembly have imposed a regime of collective non-recognition on UN member states regarding any cooperation or assistance with the so-called “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”. That legal regime has the same legal consequences as the ones regarding the non-recognition of Rhodesia, the annexation of Jerusalem and the Golan Heights by Israel, and the demographic changes (facts on the ground) in the Occupied West Bank.

          Would pursuing war crimes prosecutions impede Palestinian effort to gain full UN membership? Obviously.

          Obviously not. Pending cases in the ICC have nothing to do with the criteria for membership contained in Article 4 of the UN Charter.

          For years, Israel and its allies employed any excuse whatever to prevent the Arab portions of the former Palestine Mandate from being admitted as a member state states of the United Nations. That resulted in an ICJ case which held that the only criteria are those enumerated in Article 4 of the UN Charter, i.e. membership is open to every peace-loving state.

        • @Hostage – - Many European diplomats apparently think Palestine will damage its effort to acheive full UN recognition, if it pursues war crimes prosecutions.

    • W.Jones says:

      Kerry’s speech is like with Obama: ‘the banks are bad’… ‘Here’s 200 trillion in taxes because you are too big to fail.’

    • W.Jones says:

      Good comment.

  5. asherpat says:

    “ending the [Oslo] accords, a step Kopty strongly advocates for”.

    Tfaddalu! Cancel the Oslo Accords and go back to pre-Oslo situation, have the PLO leadership go back to Tunis, collect all weapons from Palestinian security forces, revert to military rule in Judea, Samaria and Gaza Strip. Or is it only a one-way ratchet?

    • have the PLO leadership go back to Tunis, collect all weapons from Palestinian security forces, revert to military rule in Judea, Samaria and Gaza Strip.

      that’s our asherpat, never at a loss for creative solutions/NOT

      • asherpat says:

        thanks for keeping me as a house-troll (actually, I shud not use this word, as it will give the moderators ideas why to block my replies) Annie, but this is not a “solution”, I want to remind to the locals that when they ask “what has the peace process ever achieved for the Palestinians”, they (the “locals”) shud ask themselves if the situation for the Palestinians was better or worse before the implementation of the Oslo accords.

        And they shud also consider whether unravelling these accords will be positive or negative for the Palestinians because each agreement has two sides and however much you vilify the Israeli side, there have been substantial concessions for Oslo accords and terminating the agreement will not be cost-free for the Palestinians.

        • each agreement has two sides

          when either side of an agreement facilitates israel expansion and control of the people and the territory then start thinking outside the box you’re in.

          shud ask themselves if the situation for the Palestinians was better or worse before the implementation of the Oslo accords.

          why? why not ask themselves if the situation for the Palestinians was better or worse before the implementation of the state of israel? why limit palestinian aspirations to another timeframe when they were refugees? as if their choices were limited to ‘israel in control this way’ or ‘israel in control that way’?

          how about a choice that looks like ‘israel not being on control of palestinians lives, at all.’

        • Hostage says:

          Asherpat the Oslo Accords have lapsed. The PA was redesignated as the Government of the State of Palestine shortly after the UN vote and it was never a party to those agreements (as many Israeli officials have pointed out).

          The Oslo Accords and the so-called peace process have been exploited by Israel and the US to facilitate further colonialism and apartheid. It really doesn’t matter if the alternatives were worse, since any agreement which violates peremptory norms of international law or which has been obtained through coercion, threats, or the actual use of force is null and void from the outset. See articles 52 and 53 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties.

          It became obvious during the UN bid that Israel employed the Oslo Accords to deny the Palestinians self-determination. The ICJ had already advised as much.

        • asherpat says:

          @Hostage. So, you claim that “The Oslo Accords and the so-called peace process have been exploited by Israel and the US to facilitate further colonialism and apartheid. ”

          Compare “before Oslo” – military rule and occupation, “after Oslo” – de facto state (actually even two states), self rule (however hampered in you opinion), government and people enjoying enormous aid, etc.

          Some “exploitation”.

        • amigo says:

          I want to remind to the locals that when they ask “what has the peace process ever achieved for the Palestinians”, they (the “locals”) shud ask themselves if the situation for the Palestinians was better or worse before the implementation of the Oslo accords.AP

          It might be more appropiate to ask if the situation is far better for the Israeli—sorry, Zionists given that Netanyahu bragged about destroying the Oslo Accords.Why he dooo dat??.

          “And how did he do it? He recalled how he conditioned his signing of the 1997 Hebron agreement on American consent that there be no withdrawals from “specified military locations,” and insisted he choose those same locations, such as the whole of the Jordan Valley, for example. “Why is that important? Because from that moment on I stopped the Oslo Accords,” he boasts. The real Netanyahu also brags about his knowledge of America: “I know what America is. America is something that can be moved easily.” For the White House’s information. ”

          link to haaretz.com

          A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

        • Hostage says:

          Compare “before Oslo” – military rule and occupation, “after Oslo” – de facto state (actually even two states), self rule (however hampered in you opinion), government and people enjoying enormous aid, etc.

          Some “exploitation”.

          So why don’t you trade places with the inhabitants of Gaza and the West Bank and see how you like having the tables turned for awhile?

          Your argument is utter nonsense. Compare the size of the illegal settler population before and after Oslo. That’s illegal colonialism. Establishing and enlarging Jewish-only settlements is part of a systematic policy of Bantustanization. That is prima facie evidence of the crime of apartheid. — See the Human Rights Commission, Study Concerning the Question of Apartheid from the Point of View of International Penal Law, E/CN.4/1075, 15 February 1972, pp. 51 – 52.

          Israel has been pursuing a policy of deliberate Bantustanization ever since the days when the Minister of Agriculture, Ariel Sharon announced his plans to breakup the contiguity of large Arab population centers in Israel and the Occupied territories by establishing inland strips of Jewish settlements. The US government was informed about that, but chose to do nothing. Sharon bragged about the plan at great length in interviews with the Jerusalem Post, dated September 9th and 12th, 1977. Those reports were submitted as exhibits to the US Senate. As the old saying goes, “Its a fact, and you can look it up in the Library of Congress”. link to loc.gov

        • asherpat says:

          @Hostage,

          You claim the my “argument is nonsense”, but your whole tirade “pulverises” my reply with a hail of innuendoes, pseudo-legal unproven “prima-facies” and ideas. I wud start the argument with you about “illegality” of Israel’s settlement and the non-sequitur nature of studies by the Lybia-chaired, Syria-cheering “Human Rights Commission”, but I don’t have time. Your response is just not to my original point – which is whether Palestinians be better or worse before Oslo. Please discuss this point.

          And you didn’t answer to me whether I understood correctly from your previous post that you think it fair for Israel to compensate Arab refugees monetarily in exchange for dropping the demand to return into Israel and full end of the conflict. Let’s try to solve things.

        • Hostage says:

          Your response is just not to my original point

          Yes I responded by pointing out that the question was a red herring, i.e. an extraneous issue that is meant to distract the readers from the fact that Israel and the US have used the Oslo Accords as cover for continued colonialism and apartheid. If you can only respond by claiming that colonialism and apartheid aren’t as bad as Israel’s earlier wars of aggression and the Nakba, then you can stop spamming the thread.

          There were no Syrians or Libyans heading up the panels of criminal law experts who authored the 1972 study. The International Law Commission and the member state-elected CERD panels of experts have subsequently confirmed those findings and advised that they are held by the majority of leading western publicists.

          For example, in 1998 the Experts panel for the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination said that the status of the Jewish-only settlements was clearly inconsistent with the prohibition of apartheid and similar policies of racial segregation contained in Article 3 of the Convention. The Committee noted General Recommendation XIX, prohibited all forms of racial segregation in all countries; and that there was a consensus among publicists that the prohibition of racial discrimination, irrespective of territories, was an imperative norm of international law. CERD/C/SR.1250, 9 March 1998 link to unispal.un.org

          Here’s an extract from the latest report: The Committee draws the State party’s attention to its General Recommendation 19 (1995) concerning the prevention, prohibition and eradication of all policies and practices of racial segregation and apartheid, and urges the State party to take immediate measures to prohibit and eradicate any such policies or practices which severely and disproportionately affect the Palestinian population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and which violate the provisions of article 3 of the Convention. CERD.C.ISR.CO.14-16 link to www2.ohchr.org

        • asherpat says:

          @hostage, you got me there. I can’t anymore follow all the leads from your responses, which are all “not answering my original point”. I wud say, however, that it is a pattern here – while there must be legitimate and logical criticism of the Little Satan, when I ask an uncomfortable question, all I see posted are the usual wails of “apartheid”, “colonists”, “land steal”, “racists” “nakba” “nakhsa” etc.

          You seem to be (sincerely) an intelligent and knowledgeable person, and I wud expect you to answer to the point.

        • Hostage says:

          You seem to be (sincerely) an intelligent and knowledgeable person, and I wud expect you to answer to the point.

          You seem to be a troll who wants to steer the conversation away from the point and onto imbecilic ones.

    • Keith says:

      ASHERPAT- Ending the Oslo Accords due to Israeli non-compliance might well be positive, and likely wouldn’t hurt. Send the PA leadership back to Tunis? Not a bad idea. Collect all of the US/Israel supplied weapons from the PA sepoys who maintain order for US/Israel? Sounds good to me. Revert to military rule? Very expensive and would create a lot of problems for Israel. Be careful what you sarcastically wish for. Of course I wouldn’t advocate for this just because Abir Kopty favors it, however, if the majority of Palestinians are so inclined, I say go for it. Time to change tactics and up the ante.

      • asherpat says:

        @Keith, I don’t suppose that you are not Zionist, to say the least, but you too (and the photogenic Abir Kopty) shud be careful with what you wishes for, cos it may just come true. Let me explain:

        Even if it will be too difficult for Israel to re-impose military rule if Oslo is terminated, or even to send back PLO, there will be no legal or moral incentive for Israel to continue supporting the territories with electricity, water, etc, but this is not all by far. In such case, Israel will just try to preserve the status-quo, and bar violence, the Arabs will have no “stick” to beat Israel. But violence is what they use now to extract concessions from Israel with no recognition of Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state among Arab/Muslim states. By terminating Oslo unilaterally, Arabs will lose.

        • Keith says:

          ASHERPAT- “there will be no legal or moral incentive for Israel to continue supporting the territories with electricity, water, etc”

          Israel, as the occupying power, has legal obligations to provide for the population. And don’t say that Israel isn’t “occupying” the occupied territories. And what about all of those “settler” terrorists? Israel agreed to Oslo because the formal occupation was too expensive. They sought a de facto occupation using the PA to suppress the population.

        • asherpat says:

          @Keith – Israel is “an occupying power”? Occupying which territories and from whom? The “Occupying Power” meme requires there to be an “Occupied” party, and there isn’t. To “occupy”, the “occupier” must have “boots on the ground” and there aren’t (100% of Gazastan is Arab and the vast majority of Arabs in Judea and Samaria live in a defacto state under own rule (neither blockade nor the ability to enter a state is tantamount to occupation). And the fact that “everybody says so” isn’t an argument.

        • Citizen says:

          @ asherpat
          I suggest you compare the number of Jewish settlers outside the green line in ’66 with the number of them there now in 2013. Also note on which side of that line the wall is erected on.

        • Hostage says:

          (neither blockade nor the ability to enter a state is tantamount to occupation). And the fact that “everybody says so” isn’t an argument.

          It actually is an argument. International law is simply the collection of rules that states adopt to govern their mutual relations. Customary law is whatever they say that it is.

          They have agreed that territory is occupied from the moment it is placed under the jurisdiction of the advancing military forces. If those IDF gunboats in Palestinian territorial waters have the authority to stop the inhabitants from navigating freely, then the rules of occupation apply. If 30 percent of the agricultural land of Gaza is subject to IDF jurisdiction as part of a buffer zone or kill zone, then the laws of occupation apply. I could go on, but you get point.

        • What country claims Israel is not occupying the West Bank?

    • Koshiro says:

      Revert to official, rather than just de facto, Israeli rule over and responsibility for all the occupied territories – yes. Whether this would include “collecting all weapons from Palestinian security forces” remains to be seen. Those in the Israeli government who are as blinded by their fanaticism as you are will probably want to do it, but Israeli security leaders are going to take them aside and tell them in private that it’s not a good idea.

      This scenario will simply mean that Israel can no longer outsource its occupation and that the reality of said occupation becomes more obvious. It will also bury the pretense of a two-state solution. I don’t see a problem with any of this.

  6. W.Jones says:

    I like Abir. She is active, and very passionate and engaging, which is very important and not something you always see from all speakers, even knowledgeable ones. And congratulations to her for refusing to give the DNA sample requested because of her speaking out.

    I disagree overall with one reasonable judgment she makes in her lecture: Namely, she sees US Aid to Palestinians as negative. I think it does have a coopting effect, it serves US and Israeli interests, and pushes people less because they are not compelled by circumstances to react.

    On the other hand, important NGOs and religious charities working for Palestinians receive alot of their finding from US Aid. Some of those charities oppose State policies or promote civil society, rights, and pluralization. B’Tselem is one of the strongest examples, but I can think of other important ones. Sure, they alleviate Palestinians’ pain, but this can also allow them to regroup and organize better.

    So my position is that the US Aid and the plan for “economic peace” helps, but it does not solve the situation. To give an analogy, a significant number of people in US prisons have quite enough cash, but since they are in prison this money does not give them freedom. Of course, it’s important that the prison gives them material sustenance in prison like food and clothes- that’s good not bad. But those things do not make them free citizens.

    • W.Jones says:

      Obviously, if a person is wrongly imprisoned, it’s good if he is compensated financially for his hardship, and also given food and clothes while in jail. Those things themselves are good, and on that point I would tend to disagree with Kopty and Bahour (if that is their position).

      But he should not voluntarily agree to stay in prison in return for those things, and a financial offer to have him do that would be a harmful one. On that, I agree with Kopty and Bahour.

  7. Mike_Konrad says:

    I am amazed at how both camps (both Palestinian and Zionist) hate Oslo; but for completely different reasons.

    And not just Oslo.

    Allison Deger, of Mondoweiss, was upset the other day that that the Jahalin Bedouins were being moved to Nu’aimah (Nueimah). –
    Mondoweiss: Israel approves construction to transfer West Bank Bedouin

    Meanwhile, Israel National News (a right wing Jewish media outlet) was upset that Israel was even giving the Arabs the city of Nu’aimah, at all. (Read comments) –
    Israel National News: Yaalon Gives Green Light to PA City in Jordan Valley.

    Both sides were upset that the Arabs should be moving to Nu’aimah, but for completely different reasons.

    Allison Deger wanted the Arabs to stay in E-1, not Nu’aimah.

    The commentators at Israel National News wanted the Arabs to have neither E-1 nor Nu’aimah.

    If this were not so damnably tragic, it would be funny.

    This is no possibility for peace – at all – when the same action produces the same violent rejection on both sides – but for completely opposite reasons.

    I am Christian, but this looks the Greek view of the Gods of Olympus who confound men with impossible predicaments for their amusement.

    If so, this is Zeus’ best production yet.

    You think I am crazy when I suggest a generously re-imbursed payment to move the Arabs of Judea and Samaria to South America. Maybe so! Maybe I am nuts.

    But, frankly, both sides are so thoroughly opposed that my suggestion is the only possible alternative to nuclear war.

    It has gotten that severe.

    This is all so tragic.

    • Meanwhile, Israel National News (a right wing Jewish media outlet) was upset that Israel was even giving the Arabs the city of Nu’aimah

      you must be either very gullible or think we’re fools. this is called ‘moving the center’. as the ethnic cleansing state moves further to corral the oppressed residents like cattle their media highlights the wails of extremists who want them forcibly exiled or worse. then you juxtapose allison with the ethnic cleansing extremists (you who advocate palestinians move to south america!!!) and low and behold..what’s in the middle? the ethnic cleansing state who’s ever so generously building the reservation to corral palestinians under occupation.

      btw, the land for this ‘city’ is not israel’s to ‘give’ away, nor is the surrounding land they plan on stealing.

    • libra says:

      Mike_Konrad: You think I am crazy when I suggest a generously re-imbursed payment to move the Arabs of Judea and Samaria to South America. Maybe so! Maybe I am nuts.

      But, frankly, both sides are so thoroughly opposed that my suggestion is the only possible alternative to nuclear war.

      Hey Mike, I think some of my suggestions in the past have been pretty good but even I wouldn’t claim any were quite this compelling. Maybe you should run a fundraiser on Kickstarter:

      Send a Palestinian packing to Patagonia or die! T-Shirt reward for $75 plus.

    • eljay says:

      >> This is all so tragic.

      Yes, it is tragic that Jews were able to employ terrorism and ethnic cleansing to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state in Palestine.

      And that they were then able to maintain and expand that state by means of a 60+ years, ON-GOING and offensive (i.e., not defensive) campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.

      And that they continue to refuse to enter into sincere negotiations for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.

      And that Israel remains an oppressive and supremacist state.

      It’s all quite tragic.

    • “You think I am crazy when I suggest a generously re-imbursed payment to move the Arabs of Judea and Samaria to South America. ”
      No not crazy. Just stupid.

      • and racist. notice he’s not suggesting israel jews move to argentina.

        • Ecru says:

          @ Annie

          Or perhaps he just likes Argentines. After all, who in their right mind would want an Israeli Jew for a neighbour? You’d never know when they’d decide to try and drive you out and take your home for themselves because 100 years ago their great grand-daddy saw a photo of the place so obviously it’s theirs by right.

        • homingpigeon says:

          I will happily take an Israeli Jew for a neighbor in Texas. I think it unlikely that he would be trying to take my house from me, whereas in Palestine (the land between the river and the sea) this fellow would quite likely be displacing a Palestinian. I would do everything I can to make him feel safe and happy so that he’d never have a reason to go be a threat to others and himself in that sorry experiment that occupies Palestine.

        • Ecru says:

          @ homingpigeon

          I would do everything I can to make him feel safe and happy so that he’d never have a reason to go be a threat to others…

          You’re talking about people (Israeli Jews) who see Palestinian graffiti as an “existential threat.” There’s simply no way around Zionist tribal misanthropy, you could be a blessed saint and all they’d see would be someone trying to seduce them into a gas oven.

        • Ecru says:

          Correction

          They’d SAY you were just trying to seduce them into a gas oven as an EXCUSE to take your home.

        • @Homing – - I think there already are hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jews living in the US.

    • Ecru says:

      Yes lord knows it’s completely unreasonable to be against the ethnic cleansing of people. Why whatever next, moaning about genocide?

      I am Christian

      Yes and obviously in the great tradition of Pope Innocent III, Benedict IX or Urban II.

    • Citizen says:

      Waht’s funny is your suggestion “as a Christian” to move the natives to S America, so the Israeli settlers streaming in from, say, Brooklyn, have more room to expand.

  8. Talkback says:

    “Kopty wrote a blog post last year inveighing against a plan to recruit Palestinian Christians into the Israeli military. … the Israeli police told her she was violating a law against incitement to violence and terrorism, and that they asked for a DNA sample.”

    Sounds pretty much like a “Jewish democracy”.

  9. ivri says:

    `Kopty: ”The peace process serves the interests of Israel”.
    So, what serves the interests of Israel is endemically bad in her eyes – equivalently, only what does not serve the interests of Israel – is bad for it – would excite her… So a country is supposed to view a citizen of it with this attitude?

    • “So, what serves the interests of Israel is endemically bad in her eyes”
      No, because it also doesn’t serve the interests of the Palestinians. Don’t be selective in what you understanding now.

  10. gingershot says:

    Kopty is so refreshing – I so much look forward to the day when a whole younger generation of Palestinians gets rid of the constipated Abbas-like cronies that are basically Israel’s boys in Ramallah

  11. Is it not fair to say the Oslo Accords were a reasonable deal, but that Israel then cheated big-time? And the Clinton administration ignored the cheating?

    • W.Jones says:

      The cheating has occurred as you described.

    • homingpigeon says:

      Whether the Oslo Accords were a reasonable deal or not, what we are up against is a common personality disorder in Israel regarding the concept of the “frayer.” Many have written extensively about this. There is an ingrained obsession with outwitting and outsmarting others while being equally obsessed that others are outwitting outsmarting them. It happens within Israeli society as much as against outsiders. The “frayer” is the one who has come out second best in an encounter or transaction. Israelis have made frayers out of the Palestinians and live in fear that the same could be done back to them. Bear this in mind when communicating with hasbarists.

  12. a blah chick says:

    What the hell to they need a DNA sample for?

    • W.Jones says:

      To connect her with crimes that she may or may not have been involved in of course.

    • To add her to their gigantic database of Palestinians, activists and everybody else who is not head-in-the-sand zionist. If you think Prism is bad, what do you think Israel has been doing for the last five years, and why do they demand emails and networks of citizens who enter Israel? In addition, knowledge of her DNA is a useful way of potential harassment, guilt by association, smearing etc. 1984 in action.

  13. Newclench says:

    No mention of her long standing affiliation with Hadash. Interesting.

  14. Kopty thinks Palestinians should try to cultivate “blacks” in the US.

  15. Mayhem says:

    Kopty says

    One of the goals of the Palestinian people is to decolonize Palestine

    She uses this euphemism decolonize to express her political position. Can one interpret the intent of this expression to be anything other than to get rid of the Jews from Israel?

    She likes to use the phraseology that the bereft Left resort to when they try to reduce the I/P conflict to a political struggle along post-modernist lines. For her it’s all about power. The human rights of Israeli Jews don’t matter – they are expendable because her cause matters more to her. She has adopted an epistemology that uses language not as a vehicle for seeking truth, but as a rhetorical weapon in the continuing battle against the US and its strategic alliance with Israel. She interprets the I/P conflict as a political power struggle where she wants her side to win and the Israelis to lose.

    Questions of right and wrong have been supplanted by questions of power. Without morality all that matters is who is in control. Those with power are automatically responsible for all that is wrong in the world, and are consequently the ones that should be condemned. The PA have not achieved enough power for the hapless Palestinians so they stand condemned regardless of the stability and hopes for peace they have brought to the region. The powerless Palestinians are seen as mere victims, not responsible for their actions or own atrocities. Therefore, Palestinian terrorists can’t be condemned because they are the powerless, but Israelis must automatically be condemned because they are more powerful. Abbas can’t bring himself to the negotiating table even after Netanyahu offers to free Palestinian prisoners who have been locked up pre-Oslo (see link to timesofisrael.com) because it is not enough. Abbas needs to show power – that is what matters to the Palestinian side, not peace.

    Kopty bemoans the fact that her side isn’t doing that well and tries to put the blame on the PA for having gone soft on resistance against Israel. And she is surprised that Israeli authorities are monitoring what she says! She could well be the instigator of groups that support armed resistance and the Israelis are meant to turn a blind eye? Acceptance of Israel as it exists is the ultimate obstacle to peace. The continuation of efforts to get rid of Israel, that have been going on in one shape or form since 1948, remains the root of the problem.

    • eljay says:

      >>Kopty says

      One of the goals of the Palestinian people is to decolonize Palestine

      >> She uses this euphemism decolonize to express her political position. Can one interpret the intent of this expression to be anything other than to get rid of the Jews from Israel?

      I interpreted it as meaning “end the Israeli colonization of – and remove Israeli colonies from – lands outside of Partition-borders Israel”.

      I agree with the sentiment. Unfortunately, the wording is somewhat ambiguous.

      If she actually does mean “get rid of the Jews from Israel”, then I condemn her statement.

    • talknic says:

      @ Mayhem “Can one interpret the intent of this expression to be anything other than to get rid of the Jews from Israel?”

      Uh? link to unispal.un.org
      Palestine is not Israel. Israel cannot be independent and a part of Palestine.
      MORE @ link to wp.me

      What remained of Palestine after Israel was declared independent of Palestine is still being colonized by a state that tramples on the basic tenets of Judaism and breaks laws, UN Charter and relevant conventions adopted in large part because of what befell our fellow Jews under the Nazis, doesn’t deserve the title ‘Jewish state’.

      “The human rights of Israeli Jews don’t matter – they are expendable because her cause matters more to her. “

      First you speculate, then you build an argument based on your speculations… it’s straw Pajero…

      “The continuation of efforts to get rid of Israel, that have been going on in one shape or form since 1948, remains the root of the problem”

      The UNSC says otherwise… link to wp.me
      3. Reconfirms that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

      • talknic- You and mayhem disagree regarding an accurate interpretation of Abir Kopty’s sentence: “one of the goals of the Palestinian people is to decolonize Palestine”. I believe that her statement is ambiguous and she should clarify for us.

        • Shmuel says:

          I believe that her statement is ambiguous and she should clarify for us.

          Don’t be silly, Yonah. Anyone who has ever read anything Kopty has written (including here at MW) knows exactly what she means by “decolonization”. Only a propagandist, acting in bad faith, would twist her words as Mayhem has.

          Kopty wrote, for example:

          Some argue the Right of Return will put an end to a Jewish state. Those who use this argument, especially supporters of Zionism and the colonialist nature of Israel, often mix between the Jewish state and the Jewish people. They want people to believe that opposition to a Jewish state means destruction of Jews. This is not what Palestinians advocate.

          Palestinians are tired of being asked to calm down the colonizers’ “fears”. It is the duty of Israelis to revolt against the manipulation of their government that is reproducing fear among their people in order to keep controlling their lives in a manner that serves their Zionist-colonialist agenda. If they seek real “peace”, it is their duty to prove their willing to give up their colonialist privileges. Palestinians have known Jewish and Arab joint living before 1948, a possibility that can be returned to when justice is guaranteed.

          One may disagree with Kopty, as I’m sure you do, but to suggest that she wants to “get rid of the Jews from Israel” is simply false – and, I would add, an all-too-common smear against Palestinians who demand equality in Israel/Palestine.

        • Shmuel says:

          More on the discourse of decolonisation and equality, which is the context of Kopty’s statement (from an article by Michael Warschawski):

          For us, Zionism is not a national liberation movement but a colonial movement, and the State of Israel is and has always been a settlers’ colonial state. Peace, or, better, justice, cannot be achieved without a total decolonization (one can say de-Zionisation) of the Israeli State; it is a precondition for the fulfillment of the legitimate rights of the Palestinians—whether refugees, living under military occupation or second-class citizens of Israel. Whether the final result of that de-colonization will be a “one-state” solution, two democratic states (i.e., not a “Jewish State”), a federation or any other institutional structure is secondary, and will ultimately be decided by the struggle itself and the level of participation of Israelis, if at all.

          In that sense, Uri Avnery is wrong when he states that our divergences is about “one state” or “two states.” As explained above, the divergence is on rights, decolonization and the principle of full equality. The form of the solution is, in my opinion, irrelevant as long as we are speaking about a solution in which the two peoples are living in freedom (i.e., without colonial relationships) and equality.

          link to alternativenews.org

        • talknic says:

          @ yonah fredman “I believe that her statement is ambiguous and she should clarify for us

          Uh? Interpretation? Ambiguous? Read what’s actually said, don’t change anything. It’s quite clear

          The territory of Palestine that became Israel 00:01 May 15th 1948 was renamed “Israel”. No longer Palestine. Whatever remained was/is Palestine.

          The Israeli Government of 1948 understood “outside the State of Israel” “the Government of the State of Israel operates in parts of Palestine outside the territory of the State of Israel” … “areas, outside the territory of the State of Israel..”

        • Kopty may want more than removal of Israeli troops and police from West Bank.

        • Citizen says:

          Seems relevant to point out that Truman’s recognition of the state of Israel was not recognition of a “Jewish state.” In fact, he crossed out that adjective before he signed his name to the letter given to him to sign. The letter that he edited and then signed is easily available in the Truman Library online.

          If memory serves, the USSR was second to recognise the self-declared state of Israel. I wonder h0w that document characterizes the new state the USSR was recognizing…

        • Citizen says:

          Here’s a concise summary of what Truman did when he recognized Israel, basically guaranteeing the I-P Conflict, on-going to this day: link to alternativeinsight.com

          Truman started the POTUS policy of handling Israel as a domestic issue, not a foreign policy issue. And that POV is as alive today as it was in 1948 when Truman created it.

        • @Citizen – - Clark Clifford took great pride in the fact Truman let domestic politics control his decision on recognition of Israel. When all Truman’s foreign policy advisers said not to do it immediately.

        • “State of Israel”, surely.

        • Mayhem says:

          Abir Kopty makes it clear that she seeks the elimination of the Jewish state and the remarks by Warschawski back this up.
          This can only lead to the destruction of the Jewish entity in Israel and is nothing more that the utopian dream of Marxists, who still live in some fantasy land.
          They harp on about a secular democratic state, denying the right to Jews to have their nation state and happily ignoring the abundance of other states in the world that have a state religion. The Islamic world is chockers with them and yet the Islamic countries strive endlessly to deny Jews the right to a state of their own.

        • Hostage says:

          Abir Kopty makes it clear that she seeks the elimination of the Jewish state and the remarks by Warschawski back this up.
          This can only lead to the destruction of the Jewish entity in Israel and is nothing more that the utopian dream of Marxists, who still live in some fantasy land.

          I still have a nice collection of I like Ike buttons. I don’t feel the rest of the world is under any obligation to maintain such a thing as a Jewish State in Palestine or even tolerate one that mistreats one in five people living there. Its is not indispensable, so its disappearance would not automatically trigger destruction or the apocalypse.

        • Citizen says:

          Yep. Truman basically allowed Clifford to speak for him, and others soon recognized this, and dealt with Clifford more, Truman less in the matter of Israel. Not quite “the buck stops here,” I’d say.

        • eljay says:

          >> Abir Kopty makes it clear that she seeks the elimination of the Jewish state … This can only lead to the destruction of the Jewish entity in Israel …

          And that would be a good thing. Supremacist “Jewish State” has no “right” to exist.

          >> They harp on about a secular democratic state, denying the right to Jews to have their nation state …

          Jews don’t have a right to a supremacist “Jewish State”.

          >> … and happily ignoring the abundance of other states in the world that have a state religion. The Islamic world is chockers with them and yet the Islamic countries strive endlessly to deny Jews the right to a state of their own.

          The solution to the problem is for “Islamic countries” in the “Islamic world” to undergo reform and become secular, democratic and egalitarian states of and for all of their citizens, equally.

          The solution is not for Jews to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State” in Palestine.

      • pjdude says:

        “Palestine is not Israel. Israel cannot be independent and a part of Palestine.” not entirely true. If Israeli territory is illegally aquired palestinian territory than technically it can be in palestine as illegally aquired lands are still considered to legally be owned by the legal owners. also the word palestine can refer to a state and a geographical area hence Israel can be entirely distinct from the state of palestine and still be in the geographical area of palestince kinda of like pakistan being part of the indian subcontinent while not being part of the state of india.

      • Mayhem says:

        Sorry talknic, UN Resolution 242 is the crux. Resolution 242 in all its parts remains the basis for a comprehensive peace. Israeli will be obliged to withdraw from territories occupied in 1967 but only on the basis that Israel’s right to secure and recognized boundaries in a just and lasting peace is guaranteed.

    • Cliff says:

      Without morality all that matters is who is in control.

      Mayhem,

      You talk about armed resistance as if it’s intrinsically wrong.

      Or do you mean Palestinians have no right to armed resistance?

      Do you think Palestinians have a right to fight the IDF and the settlers who abuse them?

      Or should anyone a Zionist Jew abuses simply TAKE the abuse?

    • homingpigeon says:

      “The continuation of efforts to get rid of Israel, that have been going on in one shape or form since 1948, remains the root of the problem.”

      Continuing confiscation of private property, and displacement of the inhabitants, that have been going on in one shape or form since 1948, and continue on a daily basis both within and beyond the green line, remain the root of the problem. Until adherents of Zionism understand this, they are threats to themselves and to others.

  16. NickJOCW says:

    Myhem, Can one interpret the intent of this expression to be anything other than to get rid of the Jews from Israel?…The human rights of Israeli Jews don’t matter Re-read your own quote; it is not Israel the lady is saying they seek to decolonise, it is Palestine.

    One thing I find confusing is this business about a home for the Jewish people. Many Jews aspire to this (Peter Beinart talks about it chokingly in connection with his aspirations for his son) but few define exactly what it is supposed to mean. Is it a spiritual home, a place for prayer and pilgrimage, in which case it doesn’t need exclusively Jewish temporal administration, or a settlers’ land-grab, or a bit of both? Would anyone care to clarify this in sound bite terms?

    • homingpigeon says:

      Good point, discussions tend to get sloppy about land ownership and homelands – mixing up concepts of state sovereignty, state property, private property, mystical belonging, residence rights of citizens who may not have private property, community property, traditional grazing rights, tenants rights, and so on. The hasbarists are skilled at mixing these all up and baffling the world with bull khara.

  17. homingpigeon says:

    A point of information, the Palestinians with Israeli citizenship, like Abir, speak better Hebrew than the immigrants from Russia and America. It’s a survival thing and they do it well.