First round of Palestinian prisoners released by Israel

prisoner release
Palestinian prisoners released to Gaza during the Shalit exchange, 2011. (Photo: AP/CNN)

At 9:00 pm sealed Israeli vans with tinted windows began driving the first round of Palestinian prisoners to the West Bank and Gaza as part of a “goodwill gesture” before peace negotiations. The late night transfer and dark cars are being used to control prisoners from gesturing a “V for victory” hand signal to press, according to Israeli officials.

The first 26 of 104 prisoners were taken to Ayalon Prison in Ramle (near Tel Aviv) earlier this week on Monday. Fourteen are now en route to Gaza via the Erez Crossing and 12 are on their way to Ofer Prison where they will be transferred to Ramallah.  Currently there are over 5,000 Palestinians held in Israeli prisons and 136 in administrative detention, indefinite arrest without charge.

Shortly after midnight the Palestinian Authority (PA) will host a welcoming ceremony for the released prisoners and their families at the Muqata. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is expected to give a special address.

This early termination of sentences is first of four releases staggered over the next few months. All of detainees that will be let out early are “pre-Oslo prisoners”,  incarcerated between 1985 and 2001. Many received prison terms that well exceeded their natural lives. However, some have already served nearly 25 years and their sentences are almost at term. The Israeli Prime Minister’s office solely determined which prisoners would be released and when.

The prisoners’ rights group Addameer said these types of prisoner releases are common when negotiations re-start, however, often Israel reneges or waves of Palestinian arrests follows the public motion:

[A]lthough Israel promises to release prisoners in every return to negotiations since Oslo I in 1993, they often renege partially or completely on the agreements, in direct violation of Vienna Convention of the Law of Treaties (1969), which affirms that agreements between two party states are binding. Indeed, over 23,000 Palestinians have been released since 1993 as “goodwill measures” during various negotiations and peace talks. However, in that same period, at least 86,000
Palestinians have been arrested, including children, women, disabled persons and university students.

In advance of the prisoner release Israeli officials published a list of the potential prisoners to be let out of detention early, which included convictions and sentences. Some families of deceased Israelis killed by the Palestinian prisoners slated for release petitioned Israel’s High Court last week to cancel the move. And the YESHA Council, a settler organization, called Prime Minister Netanyahu to pressure him into canceling the agreement. Yet earlier today the High Court rejected the appeal.

While most Israeli media has labeled the Palestinian prisoners as terrorists and all but renounced the move towards peace talks, Haaretz noted this evening, not all of the families of Israelis killed by Palestinians are opposing the release:

Yet Ada Kuenstler, whose 84-year-old father, Avraham Kuenstler, was killed in 1992 by a prisoner due to be released, said she understood Israel’s political considerations in freeing Abdallah Salah from his 99-year sentence.

‘I want peace and do not ask for revenge, and I am not objecting to this move because I want to hope that this will bring peace a little closer,’ she told Reuters.

Direct peace talks will resume this week in Jerusalem, followed by a meeting in Jericho. Israel and the PA have committed to nine-months of discussions, facilitated by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.
 

About Allison Deger

Allison Deger is the Assistant Editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow her on twitter at @allissoncd.
Posted in Israel/Palestine, Israeli Government, Occupation

{ 132 comments... read them below or add one }

  1. Hostage says:

    Israel and the PA have committed to nine-months of discussions, facilitated by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.

    Haaretz is running a headline which says that Kerry has told Netanyahu that Israel’s illegitimate settlement activity violates the terms of the peace talks.

    So that nine-month commitment appears to be subject to terms that have been broken by one of the parties without any legitimate excuse. The article says there have been almost 3,100 new units approved or advanced in the planning process in recent days. When you combine that with the announcement of the massive rail project and construction of road 9, the Israelis have done nothing but demonstrate bad faith.

    • gingershot says:

      Palestine should not be bought off by the chump change of a few released prisoners – and no release of any strategic importance (as far as I know) like Marwan Barghouti

      Israel is egregiously violating the spirit and apparently even the letter of the talks – it’s time to cut losses and prepare for the Sept UN General Assembly and application to the ICC

    • gingershot says:

      Haaretz is banging today:

      ‘EU official says U.S. gave tacit support to (the EU’s new ‘Guidelines’ regarding) settlement policy’

      ‘All EU member states supported new settlement guidelines, Israeli ambassador was told during meeting on crisis between EU, Israel’

      Watch this EU Slamdunk on the Israeli Ambassador:

      ‘Israeli Ambassador to the EU David Walzer told Schmid that Israel won’t participate in the EU’s new research and development program, Horizon 2020, if it is governed by the guidelines as they now stand. Schmid, according to a senior Foreign Ministry official, responded that Israel would be better off not trying to threaten the EU with freezing negotiations over Horizon 2020.

      “You should know that we received support for the new guidelines on the settlements from all the European Union’s member states,” the official quoted her as saying. “We’re also receiving tacit support from the American administration.”

      Yahoo!

      • piotr says:

        This is the weakness and strength of EU. Very hard to make any decisions, but if made, you have consensus behind them. And on this point Israel could not even sway Latvia or Czech Republic.

        However, it is sad that “obedient vassals” still have an effective veto.

    • American says:

      ”Haaretz is running a headline which says that Kerry has told Netanyahu that Israel’s illegitimate settlement activity violates the terms of the peace talks.”

      Meaningless.
      About the equivalent of a slave complaining that his master’s constant beatings of him intefer with his slave labor chores.
      The peace talk charade will continue.

  2. W.Jones says:

    So what really happened was Kerry pressured the Palestinians into giving up their long-held required that settlement building stop in order for there to be peace talks?

    • Hostage says:

      So what really happened was Kerry pressured the Palestinians into giving up their long-held required that settlement building stop in order for there to be peace talks?

      No, I specifically pointed out above that Haaretz was running a headline which said the opposite: that Kerry has told Netanyahu Israel’s illegitimate settlement activity violates the terms of the peace talks.

  3. Hostage says:

    [A]lthough Israel promises to release prisoners in every return to negotiations since Oslo I in 1993, they often renege partially or completely on the agreements, in direct violation of Vienna Convention of the Law of Treaties (1969), which affirms that agreements between two party states are binding.

    That line of thinking is just great, except it overlooks the fact that the State of Palestine happens to belong to a special category of states that the signatories have invited to become a state party to all of the UN Vienna Conventions. But it still hasn’t done that.

    If Palestine would only deposit accessions, the United States would have a binding treaty obligation to recognize Palestine as state capable of concluding treaties; conducting diplomatic relations; and entitled to juridical and sovereign equality.

    Instead, the USA and Israel are running around spewing nonsense about the only path to statehood being the negotiations. They wouldn’t be able to use that excuse on another state party to the various UN Vienna Conventions.

  4. fnlevit says:

    Aren’t you ashamed of what you are supporting? Killers of children are nations heroes.

    • Elliot says:

      Isareli Air Force pilots are revered by Israelis. Boys dreaming of becoming a military pilot. They are “national heroes” and mass killers of innocent civilians including women and children in Gaza and Lebanon.
      Ask former IAF pilot Yonatan Shapira.

    • Hostage says:

      Aren’t you ashamed of what you are supporting? Killers of children are nations heroes.

      Hell no. That’s why I don’t support the IDF (at all); former members who have turned to politics like Dayan, Yalon, Rabin, Sharon, Barak, Netanyahu, and Bennet; “Green Patrols” that destroy Arab crops; theft of Bedouin and Palestinian land by the the Jewish State, the JNF, the WZO, or the Custodian of Absentee Property; anything originating from the Israeli settlements or the owners in Israel.

      In fact I condemn the Zionist enterprise in Palestine from start to finish. After all, the actions that make-up the Zionist methodology that Jabotinsky described in The Iron Wall have all come true and were declared 1) crimes subject to universal jurisdiction, for which 2) no statutory limitations apply. Namely:

      eviction by armed attack or occupation and inhuman acts resulting from the policy of apartheid, and the crime of genocide

      link to www1.umn.edu

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      Your state’s killed more Palestinian children. When you damn yourself and your state, then you have the right to ask anyone else this question, hypocrite.

  5. fnlevit says:

    South Africa has Nelson Mandela, Poland has John Paul II, and Burma has Aung San Suu Kyi: Though the measure isn’t exact, one way to judge a nation is by looking at its heroes. So what does it say about a prospective state of Palestine that among its heroes is Salah Ibrahim Ahmad Mugdad?. See my other post on who Mugdad is. I am basing these comments on a publication of Aug. 12. on page A16 in the U.S. edition of The Wall Street Journal, with the headline: PALESTINIAN HEROES

    • amigo says:

      “one way to judge a nation is by looking at its heroes”

      Let,s play you game, eh.

      Let us not forget that the founders of modern, international terrorism were the Zionist revisionists led by Jabotinsky, who inspired Menchem Begin, leader of the Irgun Zwei Leumi, and Yitzhak Shamir’s leader of the Stern Gang (Lehi). Have we forgotten the huge bomb these people left in the basement of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem?

      “Have we forgotten the massacre at Deir Yassein and numerous other similar act of extermination which were designed to terrorize the Palestinian people and send them fleeing for their lives away from their land? Have we forgotten the slow hanging with piano wire of the kidnapped British Army sergeants Mervyn Paice and Clifford Martin in the eucalyptus groves of Netanya? (Their bodies were also booby-trapped with explosives.”

      Bamford, James. Excerpts from Body of Secrets, in The Guardian, Sept 8,

      Transfer of citizens of an occupied power to the territory occupied is a war crime.
      See 4th GC Art 49.

      Ergo, every Zionist Leader was/is a terrorist.

      If you Google Jewish Terrorism you will find pages and pages of terrorist acts carried out by your so called Heroes.

      Hell, Israel even has what they refer to as , “The Lehi Ribbon of Honor”.

      Honoring Terrorists is an Zionist invention.

      • kalithea says:

        “Honoring Terrorists is an Zionist invention.”

        Yep. They make them Prime Ministers in Israel after a stint with Irgun.

      • Obsidian says:

        @amigo

        “Have we forgotten the huge bomb these people left in the basement of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem?”

        Have you forgotten your history?

        The Zionists warned the Brits that a bomb was going to detonate.

        link to israelsdocuments.blogspot.de

        A British ‘cock up’ with deadly results.

        • Hostage says:

          Have you forgotten your history?

          The Zionists warned the Brits that a bomb was going to detonate.

          link to israelsdocuments.blogspot.de

          A British ‘cock up’ with deadly results.

          I really don’t see any mode of liability that can shift the blame to the British for all of the deaths that resulted from this act of Zionist terrorism.

          There wasn’t any such warning in the cases of the Semiramis Hotel bombing or the bombing of the S.S. Patria. I’ve already noted elsewhere that several historians, including Walter Laqueur, agree that Irgun commanders had refused Jabotinsky’s request that they provide advance warnings in order to spare innocent civilians.So this alleged warning was definitely an exception to the standing practice.

        • amigo says:

          Obsidious “Have you forgotten your history?”

          No, but you seem to have made up yours.

          You offer a blogspot as a credible source.

          Times getting tough eh, obsidious.

        • Obsidian says:

          Did the Arabs warn against the Ben Yehuda Street or Palestine Post building bombings?
          Not to my knowledge.

        • Shingo says:

          Did the Arabs warn against the Ben Yehuda Street or Palestine Post building bombings?

          Did the Zionists was against the bombings against the Old Ottoman House in Jaffa or the Semaramis Hotel or King David Hotel?

          Not to my knowledge.

    • Hostage says:

      South Africa has Nelson Mandela, Poland has John Paul II, and Burma has Aung San Suu Kyi

      You are plagiarizing an illogical Wall Street Journal article: “Palestinian Heroes:
      Releasing murderers will not advance the peace process”. link to online.wsj.com

      It’s absurd to even mention Mandela in that context, since he too was a released “terrorist” who had been convicted of recruiting persons for training in the preparation and use of explosives and in guerrilla warfare for the purpose of violent revolution and committing acts of sabotage.

      In Joshua Muravchik, “Mandela in America”, Commentary Magazine, October 1990 the author and various American Jewish leaders, including Abe Foxman and Henry Siegman complained about the comments Mandela had made in the past and in televised interviews during his visit to New York.

      That included the fact that Mandela was unapologetic about his past and present support for the PLO and his condemnation of the government of Israel as an apartheid regime:

      Mandela, by contrast, has not merely accepted help from tyrants, he has praised, endorsed, and flattered them. . . . Of Arafat he says: “We are in the same trench struggling against the same enemy: the twin Tel Aviv and Pretoria regimes, apartheid, racism, colonialism, and neocolonialism. . . . Mandela had only expressed “regret” for the distress his earlier comments might have caused. (Those comments included his remark that “there are many similarities between our struggle and that of the PLO,” and that “if the truth alienates the powerful Jewish community in South Africa, that’s too bad.”)

      link to commentarymagazine.com

      Aung San Suu Kyi has advocated the application of international standards to citizenship laws. FYI, those international standards were incorporated in a UN minority protection plan contained in the General Assembly resolution of 29 November 1947, which Israel accepted but never implemented. It prohibits the practice of granting superior rights to Jewish citizens, while discriminating against non-Jewish citizens on the basis of their “nationality”.

      Mahatma Gandhi publicly condemned the Zionist enterprise in Palestine. He said:

      It is wrong and inhuman to impose the Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct … Surely it would be a crime against humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or wholly as their national home.

      – See Homer A Jack (editor), The Gandhi Reader: a source book of his life and writings, By Mahatma Gandhi, Grove Press, 1994, page 318

      • miriam6 says:

        Mahatma Gandhi publicly condemned the Zionist enterprise in Palestine.

        Ah yes , and what of Mahatma Ghandi’s advice to the Jews in Europe?

        And his advice to the British and the Allies during the WW2 ?:

        Gandhi’s views came under heavy criticism in Britain when it was under attack from Nazi Germany, and later when the Holocaust was revealed. He told the British people in 1940, “I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions… If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them.”[162]

        In a post-war interview in 1946, he said, “Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time.

        But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs… It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany… As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions.”[163]

        Gandhi believed this act of “collective suicide”, in response to the Holocaust, “would have been heroism”.[164].

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        See also this link for more of Ghandi’s pricelessly useless advice to the Jews on how best to avoid extermination at the hands of the Nazi’s..;

        link to gandhiserve.org to The Jewish Chronicle, by Gandhi – The Jewish Chronicle, London, October 2, 1931

        I think With such attitudes and unwillingness to take the fate Europe’s Jews were facing prior to WW2 at all seriously even from the saintly Ghandi it is little wonder that the way open was left for the false security/ answer in Zionism to the severe predicament Jews faced in Europe prior to WW2.

        See this critique of Ghandi / the preamble of Martin Buber’s letter to Ghandi and comparison with Martin Luther King’s philosophy, who , unlike Ghandi opposed the use of violence by BOTH sides

        link to mystical-politics.blogspot.co.uk

        • Hostage says:

          Gandhi believed this act of “collective suicide”, in response to the Holocaust, “would have been heroism”.

          Doesn’t the Israeli government teach the very same thing and deliberately instill the very same values, through the perpetuation of its own Masada myth?

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          Well then, if you are going to critique Gandhi’s position concerning non-violencce, then you must be a big supporter of the Palestinian people’s right to use violence against the israeli people who are voting for governments who goals include the oppression of Palestinians, theft of their land and killing of them and their families, right?

          Or is it only Jews, in your opinion, who have the right to self-defense.

        • Shingo says:

          Ah yes , and what of Mahatma Ghandi’s advice to the Jews in Europe?

          Ghandi led by example and would have done as he preached.

          See this critique of Ghandi / the preamble of Martin Buber’s letter to Ghandi and comparison with Martin Luther King’s philosophy, who , unlike Ghandi opposed the use of violence by BOTH sides

          What a blatant and repugnant lie. One would have to be insane that Ghandi did not opposed the use of violence by BOTH sides. Ghandi simply acknowledged that the only actions one could control are their own. In any case.

          Buber shows his ignorance and deliberate obfuscation. And Finkelstein points out in hsi won book on Gandhi:

          “Gandhi was not a pacifist; he believed in the right of those being attacked to strike back and regarded inaction as a result of cowardice to be a greater sin than even the most ill-considered aggression. Gandhi’s calls for the sacrifice of lives in order to shame the oppressor into concessions can easily seem chilling and ruthless.

          But Gandhi’s insistence that, in the end, peaceful resistance will always be less costly in human lives than armed opposition, and his understanding that the role of a protest movement is not primarily to persuade people of something new, but rather to get them to act on behalf of what they already accept as right – these principles have profound resonance in both the Israel-Palestine conflict and the wider movement for justice and democracy that began to sweep the world in 2011.”

          It’s no surprise that Bruber cites the right wing racist blog Harry’s place.

        • miriam6 says:

          Woody;

          Far be it for me to tell Palestinians whether to use violence or non-violence as a strategy.

          However, I can see quite clearly that the Americans have forced Israel into releasing these prisoners , and if you think I am going to stop criticising the Americans for strong-arming the Israelis ( or for that matter the Palestinians) into undertaking actions which are against their best interests , you have another think coming.

          My point about Ghandi pertained to the unique position of Europe’s Jews prior to WW2 and was NOT a critique of Ghandi’s stance on Zionism.

          The Ghandi quote I referenced in my comment was Ghandi’s advice to Jews about Nazism , not Zionism.

          That ghoulish Ghandi quote ; But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs… etc..

          - illustrates to me the utter lack of seriousness with which the non-Jewish supposedly progressive/ leftist forces in the world , including fine up-standing leading figure moralisers like Mr Ghandi took the awful , particular predicament Jews were in prior to WW2.

          True, the above Ghandi quote was made in 1946, but his advice to Jews before and during WW2 was in much the same useless , patronising vein.

          In Claude Lanzmann’s documentary Shoah , Lanzmann interviewed at length , Rudolph Vrba , a former inmate and leader of Jewish resistance at Auschwitz.

          Vrba recounted to Lanzmann how he had gone to some Communist inmates at Auschwitz and tried to persuade them to take part in an uprising at the camp with the aim of destroying the infrastructure of the death camp, such as the gas chambers / ovens / railroad tracks into the camps …etc..

          For the soon to be gassed Jewish inmates at Auschwitz , a leader like Vrba knew that ONLY a uprising aimed at destroying the death camp’s infrastructure which enabled genocide would suffice as a survival strategy.

          The non – Jewish Communist inmates at Auschwitz were not interested and rejected the plan.

          Instead they proposed a campaign of disobedience , an entirely useless strategy from the point of view and needs of the Jewish inmates WHO, unlike the NON-Jewish inmates in Auschwitz , faced the ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY of being gassed.

          After all, why should those non-Jewish inmates BOTHER to risk their lives at all in the sort of uprising Vrba was proposing , – given that unlike the Jews , who were generally all gassed on arrival at Auschwitz, – they , the Communists with their status as NON -JEWISH inmates had the far better chance of avoiding the gas chambers and ensuring their own survival?

          So much for the help the supposedly progressive / leftist forces offered to Jews.

          The Communists , who as progressives were surely supposed to be opposed and dedicated to eradicating the ills of society such as racism / anti-Semitism for example , one would imagine ought to have been eager to take part.

          On that occasion and many others they FAILED the Jews.

          That account of the utter uselessness of non- Jewish progressive leftists in the face of the particular threat that Jews were facing is just another illustration of the truth of the matter, that the so-called progressives simply could have cared less about confronting anti-Semitism..

          And that’s my point.

          Had there been a broad-based viable progressive leftist movement in Europe to actively combat, be interested in, or even to take seriously , the anti-Semitism Jews faced during those years , Zionism ( which I personally don’t believe was an answer to the problems Jews were facing back then), – would naturally have held much less interest for Jews.

          Therefore it would have been far more likely that Zionism would have been abandoned by Jews , and then we wouldn’t need to discuss this whole sorry business here would we?

          Ghandi, with his ridiculous , insulting proposals of how Jews might deal with anti-Semitism and the threat posed by Nazi Germany, was just ONE figure out of MANY who failed the European Jews.

        • Shingo says:

          However, I can see quite clearly that the Americans have forced Israel into releasing these prisoners , and if you think I am going to stop criticising the Americans for strong-arming the Israelis ( or for that matter the Palestinians) into undertaking actions which are against their best interests , you have another think coming.

          For crying out loud, the Americans are not strong-arming the Israelis and never have – apart from 1956 when they tool them to the the Sinai. If the Americans ever grew a pair and strong-armed the Israelis, they’d tell them to get out of the West Bank, East Jerusalem , the Golan and the Jordan Valley and to take it’s filthy hands off Gaza.

          As has been pointed out by anyone who’s name isn’t Forrest Gump, Israel will likely re-arrest these people in the near future anyway.

          My point about Ghandi pertained to the unique position of Europe’s Jews prior to WW2 and was NOT a critique of Ghandi’s stance on Zionism.

          You’re point on Ghandi is based on one quote that does not provide any context to what he was ultimately saying. Ghandi was not a pacifist, but believed non violent resistance was the most effective because he believed it costs less lives – and with regard to the Holocaust, there is no evidence to suggest that violent resistance may have yielded a lower death toll.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          What is appalling to me is the fact that you would condemn the non-Jewish Communists for not throwing away their lives on a useless gesture that not only had no chance of success, but which would likely — even if it had been successful — have not save very many, if any, Jewish lives.

          But more to the point, you condemn the left and progressives for not doing enough to aid the Jews in the 1930s and 1940s (although you seem to have forgotten the millions who died fighting to defeat the forces who were harming the Jews). Fair enough. How many Jewish and Israeli progressives picked up a gun to help defeat the Khmer Rouge? How many fought and sacrificed their lives to stop the genocide in Rwanda? How many volunteered for suicide missions to stop the ethnic cleansing in the Balkans?

          And if your answer is “zero” (which is either the exact number or close enough), then the next question is why do you suppose that it is condemnable for someone to not do these things for the European Jews, but when the tables are turned, you are silent on the issue?

          Frankly, your opinion stinks of a kind of bigotry that suggests that self-preservation is worthy of condemnation if it is Jews who would benefit and it is non-Jews who are trying to stay alive. And if you don’t equally condemn the failure of the Israeli left to pick up guns and throw away their lives to stop the genocides in Cambodia, Rwanda and the Balkans, then it is a kind of bigotry that accepts that it is understandable for Jews to exercise self-preservation if it is a non-Jews who would benefit.

          And that comes to my major point, which is this: you can’t blame the sins of the zionists on the fact that the leftists of the world couldn’t stop the Holocaust before they did. The evil of the destruction of Palestine cannot be mitigated or excused because of the evil of the Holocaust.

        • Hostage says:

          However, I can see quite clearly that the Americans have forced Israel into releasing these prisoners

          The fact that Israel uses prisoners as bargaining chips in negotiations is no secret Miriam. They’ve always done it and never failed to use it for propaganda purposes. There have been Supreme Court cases over the practice (which violates Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions) and there have even been Israeli laws adopted which govern the practice. None of that has anything to do with the United States.

          Israel made a deal to release prisoners with Hamas in exchange for Shalit. Everyone knew at the time that the PA was going to demand a prisoner release in exchange for its cooperation with Israel on security matters under the terms of the Road Map and the UN resolutions. Israel can’t afford to appear to be rewarding Hamas for capturing POWs, while ignoring and undermining the position of the Palestinian peacemakers. The PA has adopted non-violence and has been arresting those people who plan attacks on Israelis. There is no reason to assume they won’t do the same if these former prisoners become a threat.

        • seafoid says:

          Miriam

          It was still wrong to dispossess the Palestinians, regardless of how one feels about Gandhi.
          Israel’s ur-problem remains how to proceed with the Palestinian question.

        • miriam6 says:

          Woody @;

          Your scattershot attempt to link entirely disparate conflicts together is really quite bizarre.

          I doubt you have serious interest in ANY of them actually.

          You have never shown any interest in them (Rwanda/ Cambodia /Balkans ) – on this site at least, up until now.

          I stated quite clearly in my last comment that Palestinians have the right to a violent or non-violent strategy .

          I am perfectly willing to state here that Palestinians have been unfairly punished for European responsibility for the Holocaust.

          Bosnian Jews fought along- side a mostly Muslim militia , which included some ethnic Croats , Serbs defending Sarajevo from attack.

          You are seemingly unaware of the role interfering Jewish intellectuals such Bernard Levy and Elie Weisel played in making a supposed ‘moral ‘case for intervention by the West in the Balkans civil wars

          Israel also provided refuge for Bosnian refugees.

          I say interfering because I believe that the wars were civil wars made worse by Western intervention and I don’t believe genocide took place there.

          You need to learn a lot history about the Balkans wars either way, and Rwanda , Cambodian history too.

          For one who claims to be in solidarity with the Palestinian people , you have a curious lack of knowledge and sense of what solidarity actually MEANS and should involve.

          It ultimately means fighting and giving up one’s LIFE UNSELFISHLY for the cause one believes in …

          That is TRUE solidarity, not just paying lip service…

          Also ,Woody , you evidently know nothing of the Jewish history of joining the fight against Fascism in Spain during the Spanish Civil War.


          … the dominant Jewish role in the International Brigades (IB)

          The reality is that thousands of Jews from 53 COUNTRIES went to fight and die opposing Franco , firing the first shots against Fascism..

          link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org

          Jewish ZIONISTS also fought in the Spanish Civil War :

          link to poumista.wordpress.com

          Those brave Jewish fighters had joined their brave non- Jewish counterparts in the IB.

          Many non-Spaniards, often affiliated with radical communist or socialist entities, joined the International Brigades, believing that the Spanish Republic was a front line in the war against fascism.[108]

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          You ought to read all about the Spanish Civil War.

          You will learn so much about the TRUE nature of political solidarity and what it entails…

          If Communists/ Socialists were willing to lay down their LIVES for a cause they believed in – defeating Fascism in Spain – then why not the Communists in Auschwitz?

          After all, in Auschwitz , those Communists had the perfect opportunity to live out their political ideals by taking part on the sort of uprising Vrba envisaged.

          Even if the uprising failed to meet it’s goals , those Communists could have attempted escape and in doing so alert the world to what was happening in Auschwitz and also they could have gone on to join the partisan units / other military units that were fighting the Nazis as many other escapees including Vrba did.

          The Communists in Auschwitz did none of those things because they were COWARDS!

          You are excusing and appeasing their cowardice.

          I brought the subject up to demonstrate how the Left failed the Jews and how alone the Jews were in their fight.

          In that particular episode in Auschwitz they , the Communists FAILED.

          Contrary to what you clearly think , rebelling against the Nazis was worthwhile for the Jews.

          As Vrba later went on to prove , and so did other uprisings in death camps Treblinka and Sorbibor ( which forced the earlier closure of those death camps)and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising – that resistance was well worth it.

          Among attempts to break down the wall of silence around the Auschwitz secrets, historians have no doubt that the escape of Vrba and his fellow prisoner, Alfred Wetzler, was by far the most important.

          A major aspect of Vrba’s duties during 1942 and 1943 was to be present at the arrival of most transports of deportees and to sort the belongings of the gassed victims. From this vantage point he was able to assess how little the deportees knew about Auschwitz when they entered the camp. He began his first scientific study: to assess every unsuccessful escape attempt, to analyse its flaws and to correct them.

          As he later phrased it: “We were de facto written off by the world from the moment we were loaded into a deportation train in the spring of 1942″

          link to theguardian.com.

          Vrba and Wetzler escaped from Auschwitz on the 7 of April 1944 and upon return to their native Slovakia made contact with the remaining Jewish community there and the Jewish Council and it was there that they compiled the famous Vrba -Wetzler Report.

          The 32-page Vrba-Wetzler report was the first document about the Auschwitz death camp to reach the free world and to be accepted as credible.
          Its authenticity broke the barrier of scepticism and apathy that had existed up to that point.

          The Vrba-Wetzler report had an immediate impact.

          The publication of portions of the report in the Swiss press in the final days of June 1944, and by the western allies shortly afterwards, produced a spontaneous international denunciation, which led to protests from the Pope, the US secretary of state, Cordell Hull, the British foreign secretary, Anthony Eden, the International Red Cross, and the King of Sweden.

          On July 7 Horthy ordered a halt to the deportations from Hungary, which became effective only on July 9. Almost 200,000 Jews in Budapest were thus saved from deportation.

          link to theguardian.com

          The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising was the 1943 act of Jewish resistance that arose within the Warsaw Ghetto in German-occupied Poland during World War II, and which opposed Nazi Germany’s final effort to transport the remaining Ghetto population to Treblinka.
          It was the largest single revolt by Jews during World War II.[3]
          The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of 1943 took place over a year before the Warsaw Uprising of 1944.

          According to Samuel Krakowski from the Jewish Historical Institute, “The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising had a real influence … in encouraging the activity of the Polish underground.”[55]

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          After a somewhat successful revolt on October 14, 1943, about half of the 600 prisoners attempting to escape Sobibór escaped successfully; of these, about 50 evaded recapture. Shortly after the revolt, the Germans closed the camp, bulldozed the earth, and planted it over with pine trees to conceal its location..

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          Treblinka II, was designed as a death factory only. Killing operations at Treblinka II were ended on October 19, 1943, following a revolt by its Sonderkommando. Several German guards were killed and some 300 prisoners escaped.[13] The camp was then dismantled, and a farmhouse was built on it, in an attempt to hide the evidence of genocide.[14]

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          Jewish Prisoner Uprisings in The Treblinka And Sobibor Extermination Camps

          link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org

    • ziusudra says:

      Greetings fnlevit,
      Zionistan also has her Heros.
      The high Golem, Ben Gurion,
      The settlement founder, M. Begin,
      Ariel Sharon- even on de slab.-
      Irgun & the Stern gang.
      Momentarily the Nitanyahu Messias.
      The vile, heinous settler hoards & their deeds.
      ziusudra
      PS my Israeli Heros are Chromsky, Finkelstein,
      Baronboim, N. Hartman, Elhaik, Goldstone, etc.

  6. Obsidian says:

    Here’s my list of the terrorists to be released. I don’t see any uniformed Palestinian soldiers who killed IDF soldiers on this list.

    link to elderofziyon.blogspot.com

    I only see ordinary Jews in the list of victims.

    Hostage. Please parse out who on my list is a terrorist and who is a soldier accorded rights under the Geneva Convention.

    • DavidK says:

      There are no “ordinary Jews” on that list. There are Jewish colonists who immigrated to Palestine with no intention of living ordinary lives with the natives. These colonists are living in other peoples houses, other peoples farms and land stolen from 1948 on. How could anyone with a shred of morality or conscience live in the home of someone who was forced to leave at gunpoint is a mystery I’ll never solve.

    • piotr says:

      Complain to your government. The release is a charade that makes it easier to expand the settlements while pretending not to obstruct peace negotiations.

      By the way, GoI could accomplished that goal by releasing a much larger number of “stone throwers” etc. I have no idea what the “true list of victims” is, and I do not see a difference between “uniformed” and “not uniformed” (this is a parole on criminal offenses after all, not the release of the innocents), but it is your team that made the choice.

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      I see a list of people who were supposedly tried by a government which is officially racist against Palestinians. As such, not a single one of these convictions is legitimate.

    • Hostage says:

      Hostage. Please parse out who on my list is a terrorist and who is a soldier accorded rights under the Geneva Convention.

      You seem to be cross-posting a response to comments I made elsewhere. Prof L.C. Green noted that Israel had refused to recognize the Palestinian militias as privileged combatants, because the government of Jordan had declared them illegal. But he noted that that decision would no longer apply after the Declaration establishing the State of Palestine was issued and the PLO had acceded to the Geneva Conventions. I also commented and cited an article which said that perpetrators of attacks on members of the IDF and IDF bases were among those slated for release. The UN has affirmed time and again that Palestinians have the right to engage in armed struggle.

        • Hostage says:

          Well please yourself. Apparently you think the British were ultimately responsible for the deaths that resulted from the joint Jewish Agency-Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel.

          The Israeli planners claimed that Hamas had uniformed militias when they planned to bomb the police graduation ceremony at the outset of Operation Cast Lead.

          The Goldstone report further documented the fact that the IDF was mingling with the civilian population to shield combatants against attack from fighters “wearing military camouflage and headbands of the al-Qassam
          Brigades” (para 479).

          If you are going to target and kill them because of the claim that they’re members of an organized uniformed militia, then you have to treat them as POWs whenever they are wounded, captured, or otherwise out of the fight in accordance with the Third Geneva Convention of 1949. So how many POWs do you suppose the IDF took into custody during the siege of Gaza?

  7. just says:

    Settlements of unreal proportions announced, Israel launches attack in Gaza……who is the obstacle to peace talks & who does not seek peace at all and never has???

    This is pitiful, and the only positive is that Israel’s agenda continues to be exposed.

  8. miriam6 says:

    There are only FOUR prisoners who have been released who could qualify as
    actual combatants as they were found guilty of killing or planning to target soldiers..

    About three were jailed for murdering collaborators, and of course the great unknown was whether those so-called collaborators were guilty or not

    They ( the so- called collaborators ) ought to have been put on trial rather than being summarily executed

    At least the newly released prisoners were given trials.

    Most of the released prisoners have murdered quite ordinary folks going about their daily lives , including three elderly men ( hardly constituting a threat to Palestinians.)

    One of the prisoner’s victims was a French tourist visiting Bethlehem…

    Salah Mugdad: Aged 47, a Fatah activist from Kfar Bracha in Samaria in the West Bank. On June 14, 1993, he murdered Israel Tenenbaum, 72 years old , a guard at the Sirens Hotel in Netanya. Sentenced to life imprisonment, which was then commuted to a 32-year sentence.

    Khaled Asakreh: Aged 41, a Fatah activist from Rafida, a village in the West Bank. On April 29, 1991, he murdered Annie Ley, a French tourist in Bethlehem. Sentenced to life imprisonment.

    Atiyeh abu Musa: Aged 42, a Fatah activist from the Gaza Strip. On March 29, 1993, he murdered Isaac Rotenberg with an axe on a building site in Bat Yam. Sentenced to life imprisonment.
    A plasterer by trade, Rotenberg , 67 was attacked by Abu Musa and an accomplice at a construction site where all three men worked. He sustained repeated blows to the neck with axes. His wounds induced a coma, and he died two days after the attack.

    Rotenberg wasn’t the oldest victim of the prisoners who made it onto the list Sunday

    Fatah member Ra’ai Ibrahim Salam Ali : Aged 56, a Fatah activist from the Gaza Strip. On January 21, 1994, he murdered Morris Eizenstat 79 years old in Kfar Saba. Eisenstatt was killed with ax blows to the head while he sat on a public Kfar Saba bench reading a book.

    Mohemed Sawalha: Aged 40, a Fatah activist from the village of Azmut in West Bank. On December 2, 1990, he took part in a stabbing on a bus in Ramat Gan, in which Baruch Heisler was murdered and three other passengers were injured. Sentenced to life.

    Borhan Sabiah: Aged 42, a Fatah activist from Rai, a village in the West Bank. He was convicted of murdering six suspected collaborators. Sentenced to six life imprisonments.

    link to timesofisrael.com

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      “At least the newly released prisoners were given trials.”

      By a state which is officially racist against Palestinians. Not a single one of those “trials” is legitimate.

      “including three elderly men ( hardly constituting a threat to Palestinians.)”

      Ha! Some of the biggest murderers of Palestinians are the old men in the israeli state’s government who send out the idf terror squads.

      • miriam6 says:

        Woody@;

        Get a grip.

        Those Palestinian prisoners received trials and treatment that were far more legitimate than the ad-hoc injustice meted out to the civilian victims of the newly released Palestinian prisoners including the murders of the so- called collaborators.

        Why don’t you try addressing the issue of those murdered , so- called collaborators , who were summarily executed , without the benefit of , indeed the human right of a trial?

        Are you saying the murderers of Israeli civilians and so-called collaborators get a free pass from you?

        What is YOUR moral / rational justification for YOUR position?

        NONE of those elderly men murdered were guilty of any crime.

        You ought to come up with evidence to the contrary if you are seriously attempting to link those elderly male victims of those released Palestinian prisoners , with the other old men you refer to , who were in what you call terror squads and who were active militarily 60+ years ago?

        Otherwise you are effectively slandering the dead.

        I’d also very much like to know how exactly do you account for and perhaps justify the murder of the French tourist Annie Ley?

        What exactly did SHE DO to deserve her untimely death?

        Ultimately all you are doing with your comment is attempting to justify the appeasement of the nihilistic murder of innocents.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Those Palestinian prisoners received trials and treatment that were far more legitimate…”

          Nonsense. It is impossible for an israeli court to pass a legitimate sentence against a Palestinian, because the official and virulent racism that infests israel from stem to stern provides more than sufficient reasonable doubt.

          “…than the ad-hoc injustice meted out to the civilian victims of the newly released Palestinian prisoners including the murders of the so- called collaborators.”

          Treason has a long history of being treated as a capital crime. I would prefer that such people who are accused of collaborating with the zionist invaders be given a fair trial. But they certainly should be tried and condemned if they do cooperate with the zionists.

          “Are you saying the murderers of Israeli civilians and so-called collaborators get a free pass from you?”

          No, I’m saying that israeli claims that they are murderers is inherently and irredeemably tainted by the racism that is an indelible part of zionism. It is at least as likely, if not more so, that any Palestinian who has been “convicted” in an israeli court is in fact innocent of any wrongdoing and is being held illegally because of official racism as it is that he did the crime.

          “NONE of those elderly men murdered were guilty of any crime.”

          How do we know? If a Palestinian court produced a sentence that each was guilty of crimes, would you accept that?

          “You ought to come up with evidence to the contrary if you are seriously attempting to link those elderly male victims of those released Palestinian prisoners ,…”

          I do not know that ANY of these supposed dead men were in fact killed or were killed by these Palestinians. The basis for that is illegitimate israeli “justice,” which is worthless.

          “…with the other old men you refer to , who were in what you call terror squads and who were active militarily 60+ years ago?”

          Who cares when they were in the military? The Germans are prosecuting men in their 90s for crimes they commited in the 1940s. If these zios were part of the terror gang that stole the land from the Palestinians, in 1948, 1967 or at any time in their past, then they should stand trial for that crime and be punished for it.

          “Otherwise you are effectively slandering the dead.”

          You people have been doing that for over a hundred years. Attend to the beam in your own eye.

          “What exactly did SHE DO to deserve her untimely death?”

          You are working from a false premise. If she did nothing wrong, she did nothing wrong. (Much like nearly every Palestinians murdered, oppressed and whose lives were destroyed by a hundred years of your zionist villany.) But that is not the same as saying that the person which the israelis likely railroaded is responsible. Certainly something as worthless as a verdict from an israeli court doesn’t establish anything.

          “Ultimately all you are doing with your comment is attempting to justify the appeasement of the nihilistic murder of innocents.”

          Nope. What I’m saying is that if there were any actual innocent people who were murdered, and those people were not ligitimate targets, given the ongoing war that the zionist population is fighting against the Palestinian people, then the people responsible should be convicted and serve an appropriate sentence. But no sentence and no conviction by a zio court is worth anything, because the state and the ideology behind it are so infused with bigotry and racism that giving a Palestinian a fair trial in a zio courtroom is, in fact, an impossibility.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          Oh, and miriam, even the guy who’s in charge of the courts admits that the Palestinians don’t get a fair trial.

          link to haaretz.com

          They’re Kangaroo courts. If they admit to this much, one can only guess how bad it REALLY is.

        • miriam6 says:

          Woody@;

          On the subject of kangaroo courts :

          Here are 2 articles about how bias is inbuilt to the International Criminal Court ;

          I have never seen you raise any criticism of the great kangaroo court that is the International Criminal Court.

          link to spiked-online.com

          link to spiked-online.com

    • Hostage says:

      Most of the released prisoners have murdered quite ordinary folks going about their daily lives , including three elderly men ( hardly constituting a threat to Palestinians.)

      Miriam, if we’re going to discuss murderers who kill civilians, then the Jews of Palestine have always excelled and exceeded any of the accomplishments attributed to their Arab brethren. Their British Allies were just as accomplished in that department.

      Here are a few examples: In “A History of Zionism” (3rd Ed., Tauris Parke, 2003, page 375) Walter Laqueur said that Jabotinsky was unhappy about the murder of women and children, and asked the Irgun leaders to warn the Arabs in time for them to evacuate the areas that were to be attacked. The Irgun commanders replied that they were not willing to do that. John Quigley traces the “Collapse of the Mandate” to the period of the 1936-39 Arab revolt. see page 23 of The Case for Palestine. Quigley, Simha Flapan, David Hurst, and a host of others cite the Irgun bombing of an Arab bazaar in 1937. J. Bowyer Bell cites an incident on 14 March 1937 when Arieh Yitzhaki and Benjamin Zeroni tossed a bomb into the Azur coffee house outside Tel Aviv. He also cites a meeting in Alexandria in July 1937 between Jabotinsky and Irgun commander Col. Robert Bitker and chief of staff Moshe Rosenberg. Ze’ev listened, while the two explained the need for indiscriminate retaliation due to the difficulty of limiting operations to only the “guilty”. see Terror Out of Zion, pages 35-36. These criminals murdered plenty of ordinary people and made millions of implacable enemies for Israeli Jews among the victims.

      British official reports for the period stated that, between April 1936 and August 1939, 126 British, 545 Jews, and over 2,000 Palestinians were reported killed.
      – See Michael Cohen, Palestine and the Great Powers, 1945 to 1948 Princeton University Press, 1982, page 230.

      One Jewish paramilitary organization boasted that it had killed 373 people in Palestine by the end of 1946, including 300 civilians. The author notes that Irgun and their Sternist allies were the sort of people who like to boast about their murders. — See Christopher Sykes, Crossroads to Israel, Indiana University Press, 1973, page 307. I shouldn’t have mention it, but the leader of that organization went on to serve in the first Knesset and was eventually elected Prime Minister of Israel – and has always been hailed as a national hero by Israelis. One of his Sternist allies was also the longest serving Prime Ministers of Israel in his era.

      • Obsidian says:

        @Hostage

        “J. Bowyer Bell… cites a meeting in Alexandria in July 1937 between Jabotinsky and Irgun commander Col. Robert Bitker and chief of staff Moshe Rosenberg. Ze’ev listened, while the two explained the need for indiscriminate retaliation due to the difficulty of limiting operations to only the “guilty”

        Right. And Jabotinsky disagreed with indiscriminate retaliation.

        Doesn’t retaliation mean reacting to an attack? Wasn’t the Azur coffee house bombing (carried out by a splinter cell)
        a reaction to Arab sniping?

        • Hostage says:

          Right. And Jabotinsky disagreed with indiscriminate retaliation.

          Doesn’t retaliation mean reacting to an attack?

          We’re talking about psychopaths who invaded Jordan and blew-up innocent civilians in their homes and killed army personnel in retaliation for attacks that everyone else claims were launched from Syria in the first place.

          Once again the Irgun commanders told Jabotinsky that they would not honor his wishes in the matter and that they would continue kill innocent people without any warning.

          The terror attacks we’re talking about were indiscriminate in the sense that the Irgun didn’t even try to locate any guilty parties when they did a drive by shooting at a refinery that used Arab laborers or when they tossed bombs into a market place or movie theater.

        • MHughes976 says:

          ‘Retaliation’ means reacting proportionately to an attack, ‘tale’ being Latin for ‘suchlike’, implying ‘no more and no less’.

        • Obsidian says:

          @Hostage

          “The terror attacks we’re talking about were indiscriminate in the sense that the Irgun didn’t even try to locate any guilty parties”

          You read Bower Bell.
          He cites incidents where an Arab on a train threw a bomb at Jews on Herzl Street and Irgun retaliated by shooting at Arab passengers on a train. Arabs were sniping at Jews near Azur and Irgun retaliated by bombing the Azur coffee shop.

          Weren’t all these attacks ‘indiscriminate’?

          *please say ‘yes’*

        • Hostage says:

          Weren’t all these attacks ‘indiscriminate’?

          *please say ‘yes’*

          Of course they were. But I’ve also read Livia Rokach on the subject of Shertok’s diaries and know that many others were self-provoked incidents and a few black-flag operations that were a “political-military policy known under the false name of “retaliation”. ” See “Israel’s Sacred Terrorism”, link to msuweb.montclair.edu

        • Obsidian says:

          @Hostage

          Livia Rokach, who suggested that Akrabim Pass bus massacre might have been a black flag operation conducted by Jewish ‘rightists’ and not simply a revenge attack by angry Bedouin.

        • Shingo says:

          He cites incidents where an Arab on a train threw a bomb at Jews on Herzl Street and Irgun retaliated by shooting at Arab passengers on a train. Arabs were sniping at Jews near Azur and Irgun retaliated by bombing the Azur coffee shop.

          Read up on the a car bomb which destroyed the Old Ottoman House in Jaffa, the Sariah, killing 26 and the second in Jerusalem (Jan 5), which blew up Semiramis Hotel, killing 20 Palestinians.

          And then red up on the first 3 months of 1948, where the Zionsits were responsible for dozens of bombings in cities and villages and killings on roads, carried out by Mistaravim (disguised as Arabs). They blew up homes, and planted explosives at night.

          And then get back to us about indiscriminate attacks.

        • Hostage says:

          Livia Rokach, who suggested that Akrabim Pass bus massacre might have been a black flag operation conducted by Jewish ‘rightists’ and not simply a revenge attack by angry Bedouin.

          Not just that of course. Liva Rokach who was quoting Prime Minister Shertok’s diary about the deliberate lies he had to tell other governments to cover-up things like bogus retaliations.

        • Obsidian says:

          @Hostage

          “Not just that of course”

          Not just what? At the time her book was published, the strongest evidence was that Bedouin, not Jews, carried out the massacre.

          Shertok was lying politician. Wow.

        • Hostage says:

          Shertok was lying politician. Wow.

          Declassified documents, including Ben Gurion’s own diaries, confirmed most of what he said. There were also a host of memoirs and interviews from individuals like Rabin, Dayan, and Begin that confirmed the details of his accounts.

          It would be much more accurate to say that you are just another dissembling Zionist commentator who is trying to conceal the fact that the Jewish attacks which ethnically cleansed and destroyed 400+ Palestinian villages weren’t really retaliations for similar Palestinian actions. A generation of Israeli leaders, like Rabin, wrote memoirs which admitted they had committed atrocities in places like Lod and Ramle during the war.

          There was another example in the Israel press just a few weeks ago. General Yitzhak Pundak, the commander of Givati Brigade 53rd Battalion boasted about the war crimes he and his unit had committed when they razed Arab villages:

          If we hadn’t done it, there would be a million more Arabs and there would be no Israel………when asked if he feels proud of his country, he said that his pride runs “as high as the rooftop.”

          100-Year-Old General: We Razed Arab Villages, So What? link to israelnationalnews.com

          No amount of hasbara is going to diminish the obvious truth. So why don’t you stop engaging in Nakba denial for another day or two?

      • miriam6 says:

        Hostage @;

        On another thread YOU said about the 26 now released Palestinian prisoners :

        Many of the prisoners were members of uniformed militias who attacked military targets. They should never have been treated as terrorists, but rather as POWs under the terms of the 3rd Geneva Convention. See for example: “Perpetrators of deadly attack on IDF base among those slated for release”. link to jpost.com

        As it happens , and as you have presumably discovered thus far, NONE of the supposed prisoners who could have qualified as combatants POWs on your JPost link have been released…

        To reiterate, only FOUR of the prisoners actually released could be classified as Palestinian combatants attacking fellow combatants , i.e. Israeli soldiers.

        So, having lost your argument that the prisoners ought to have had the rights accorded to those who attacked MILITARY targets , you seem to have moved onto a whataboutery type argument, reciting episodes from 70+ years ago in which extremist Jewish militias killed Palestinian civilians , in your attempt to evade the reality that most of the 26 Palestinian prisoners attacked and murdered civilians.

        I consider that your argument amounts to nothing more than appeasement of the nihilistic murder of innocent civilians..

        • Hostage says:

          So, having lost your argument that the prisoners ought to have had the rights accorded to those who attacked MILITARY targets

          No, even the Israeli press claims that members of the Islamic Jihad wear identifiable organizational uniforms, e.g. link to ynetnews.com

          I’ve discussed the fact here that Israeli war planners claimed they targeted the Gaza Police force because they were a uniformed militia. When you invade an urban area, the laws of war allow the local militia to defend the place. The Goldstone report noted that Hamas fighters wore camouflage uniforms and headbands. I also mentioned L.C. Green’s 1988 article about the PFLP and other groups, in which he discussed this subject. That wasn’t 70 years ago. I merely cited the casualty figures to illustrate that Palestinians have a better case to complain about the Zionists murdering their civilians in much higher numbers – and that’s even more true today than ever.

          It’s fairly nonsensical to call an attack on military objective, like an IDF base, a terror attack.

        • Hostage says:

          I consider that your argument amounts to nothing more than appeasement of the nihilistic murder of innocent civilians..

          No, I don’t condone attacks on Israeli civilians on their side of the Green Line by either uniformed militias or soldiers in plain clothes. Just check the comment archives. That’s always been my position whenever the subject has come up.

          Treating someone as a prisoner of war in accordance with the 3rd Geneva Convention doesn’t require that they be granted immunity or amnesty for any war crimes or crimes against humanity that they have committed. GC3 Article 5 simply requires that, if there is any doubt about the prisoner’s status, they have to be afforded POW protections until a hearing can be held by a competent tribunal.

          It’s a fact that your war planners claimed there are uniformed Palestinian militias that are valid targets, but your combat units and tribunals have never afforded any of its members the protection of a POW.

        • Donald says:

          ” reciting episodes from 70+ years ago in which extremist Jewish militias killed Palestinian civilians , in your attempt to evade the reality that most of the 26 Palestinian prisoners attacked and murdered civilians.

          I consider that your argument amounts to nothing more than appeasement of the nihilistic murder of innocent civilians..”

          Miriam, do you think that Israeli killings of innocent civilians were limited to the actions of “extremist militias” 70 years ago? What about the ethnic cleansing that took place then? Or what about all the bombing and shelling and killing and shooting of innocents that the IDF has done since then? I don’t actually know your position–it’s always possible that you admit to all this and are just upset that someone (though it’s not true of Hostage) might be brushing off the killing of Israeli civilians.

        • Hostage says:

          Miriam, do you think that Israeli killings of innocent civilians were limited to the actions of “extremist militias” 70 years ago?

          Donald it is not without irony that the Zionists, who have slavishly funded the efforts of Simon Wiesenthal and his successors, would have the gall to come here and complain like this, when others point out the serious war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by their Zionist compatriots and comrades 70 years ago. It isn’t as if these are not the same sort of people who publicly boast about committing crimes for which no statutory limitations apply.

          Where were all of these indignant trolls when Mondoweiss ran the article “Hiding in plain sight”? link to mondoweiss.net

          If Israelis really want to end these periodic exercises in criminal impunity, then they should hurry-up and accept the complimentary jurisdiction of the ICC. No state can refer specific cases to the Court in such a way as to limit the exercise of its jurisdiction. A state can only accept the exercise of the jurisdiction of the court for any crimes listed in the statute that have been committed on its territory by any party to the conflict.

          There are no provisions in the Statute that permit the Court to waive prosecutions in cases where immunity or amnesty has been granted. In fact, shielding the person concerned from criminal responsibility or conducting proceedings in such way that indicates an unwillingness or inability to bring criminals to justice is the very thing that actually triggers the Court’s responsibility to act.

          It is very remarkable that Israeli civilian and military officials will do almost anything, including the release of confessed murders, in order to postpone their own day of judgment in a Court that affords defendants all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

        • Shingo says:

          I consider that your argument amounts to nothing more than appeasement of the nihilistic murder of innocent civilians.

          So how do you feel about the thousands of Palestinian civilians killed by Israel Miriam?

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “To reiterate, only FOUR of the prisoners actually released could be classified as Palestinian combatants attacking fellow combatants , i.e. Israeli soldiers.”

          It would be stupid to limit the term so, because the majority of those fighting the war against the Palestinians are the non-uniformed “settlers.” They are invaders and, as such, legitimate targets.

        • miriam6 says:

          Woody@;

          the fact is we are discussing 26 now ex – prisoners.

          Of whom FOUR could be said to have been combatants as they killed or planned to abduct kill Israeli soldiers.

          Your introduction of the entirely new question of the entire settler community is dodging the issue which revolves around those 26 prisoners ONLY.

          You only introduce this entirely new question because you have lost the original argument.

          Your new claim ( rather bloodthirstily I think) states that settlers can be seen as legitimate targets.

          Eisenstatt was NOT a settler , nor was Annie Ley.

          How do you explain / justify the killing by these now ex prisoner’s of civilians WITHIN the Green Line , in the state of Israel itself?

          You are deliberately fudging the issue here and you know it.

    • seafoid says:

      ” Eisenstatt was killed with ax blows to the head while he sat on a public Kfar Saba bench reading a book.”

      Fogel syndrome. Describe the method of the murder when it shows how barbaric the Palestinians are.

      As if the IDF is kosher.

      BTW the Kfar Saba beach is off limits to non Jews residing in Yesha and Shomron. So it is not a public beach.

      • miriam6 says:

        Seafoid @;

        It is not a question , nor my intention with my comments to single out the Palestinians as somehow UNIQUELY responsible / capable of barbarism above any other human beings.

        I did not claim the IDF were kosher either.

        It so happens that the question of what the released Palestinian prisoners actually DID – is now a subject for discussion here..

        I refrain from portraying ANYONE ( I make an exception for the Nazis because the enacting and result of their ideology WAS pure barbarism ) in the normal scheme of things regardless of nationality / religion / ethnicity as UNIQUELY culpable of such barbarity precisely because so many on this site seem to employ just that sort of reductive tactic when describing Israel/Israelis are somehow uniquely culpable of barbarity/ racism.

        To my mind it is nothing more than resorting to the simple minded tactic of the morality play paradigm to do so.

        However , it does seem to me that you are engaging in some sort of denial about the nature of both the murder of Eisenstatt and the Fogel’s murders – as if you are trying to replace one unfortunate , terrible stereotype / paradigm which says , wrongly in my opinion , that the Palestinians are uniquely culpable/ capable of barbarity , with the notion that Palestinians are uniquely innocent / angelic and non- culpable and furthermore , Israelis ARE uniquely culpable/ capable of racism/ barbarity..

        I suspect that’s the reason you are uncomfortable with the graphic description of Eisenstatt’s murder and also the Fogel murder.

        • Shingo says:

          It is not a question , nor my intention with my comments to single out the Palestinians as somehow UNIQUELY responsible / capable of barbarism above any other human beings.

          No, you just happen to do it repeatedly, but inadvertently.

          It so happens that the question of what the released Palestinian prisoners actually DID – is now a subject for discussion here.

          That’s blatantly dishonest in your part. The only reason we are even discussing the release of Palestinian prisoners and not the release of prisoners in general is because Israel overwhelming military might allows them to imprison Palestinians with impunity, while the Palestinians have no source option. In other words, in spite of the fact that the Israelis have murdered 190 times as many civilians as have been killed at the hands of Palestinians, no Israelis are to be fond in Palestinian prisons.

          Thus, Israeli apologists like yourself are not forced to justify their release or their crimes.

          To my mind it is nothing more than resorting to the simple minded tactic of the morality play paradigm to do so.

          No, it’s actually another example of might making right and the powerful evading justice, while the weak are punished. You know it Miriam, so stop pretending as though this is not at the core of the debate.

          However , it does seem to me that you are engaging in some sort of denial about the nature of both the murder of Eisenstatt and the Fogel’s murders

          What is it about the nature of these murders that you feel needs to be addressed?

          I suspect that’s the reason you are uncomfortable with the graphic description of Eisenstatt’s murder and also the Fogel murder.

          Unless you are a psycopath, it would be impossible not to be offended by these murders. I for one think the perpetrators fo the Fogle murder should have been executed on the spot.

          But the fact is that the Israeli military carries out murders of equal barbarism at frequency of 10 times as much, yet because there are bombs and not knives involved, it is assumed that they are less inhumane.

          When Adam and Lizzy wrote their book on the Goldstone Report, they spoke about some of the documented war crimes that didn’t make it into the report. Some were incredible gruesome, cruel and barbaric. A father’s account of his daughter riddled with bullets from a automatic file by IDF thugs in a tank, who then laughed as he picked up his daughter and carried her, while she struggled for air and died in his arms.

          You might pretend that you don’t single out the Palestinians as somehow UNIQUELY responsible / capable of barbarism above any other human beings , but you will never be honest enough to address the crimes committed by Israelis.

        • American says:

          ‘( I make an exception for the Nazis because the enacting and result of their ideology WAS pure barbarism ) in the normal scheme of things regardless of nationality / religion / ethnicity as UNIQUELY culpable of such barbarity precisely because so many on this site seem to employ just that sort of reductive tactic when describing Israel/Israelis are somehow uniquely culpable of barbarity/ racism’……miriam6

          There was nothing ‘unique’ about Nazism…..that ‘possibility of evil’ in mankind has been present in mankind since creation or evolution and can and has surfaced thruout history.
          You can try to ‘lipstick Zionism up’ all you want, there’s hardly a dime’s worth of difference in the *mentality* that was behind nazism and what is zionism today.

        • strawman alert:

          you are engaging in some sort of denial about the nature of both the murder of Eisenstatt and the Fogel’s murders – as if you are trying to replace one unfortunate , terrible stereotype / paradigm which says , wrongly in my opinion , that the Palestinians are uniquely culpable/ capable of barbarity , with the notion that Palestinians are uniquely innocent / angelic and non- culpable and furthermore , Israelis ARE uniquely culpable/ capable of racism/ barbarity..

          basically, miriam drags this ‘uniquely’ argument into thread, as if anyone here claims israeli/zionist terror is unique, which, without following the whole thread i can safely assume no one has made that argument, and then she proceeds to argue this position is wrong and that she doesn’t claim palestinians are UNIQUELY responsible / capable of barbarism above any other human beings (which is really what she wants to insert into the thread..that palestinians are barbarians[but not uniquely so, oh my!] ….throw in a few ‘fogel fogel fogel’/the new pizza..and we’re off!)

          and here she is patting herself on the back for highjacking the thread: It so happens that the question of what the released Palestinian prisoners actually DID – is now a subject for discussion here..).

          it’s only the ‘subject for discussion’ because of you miriam. and contrary to your strawman, no one here is claiming zionism is uniquely evil.

          miriam is a pro troll.

        • tree says:

          Miriam, I mentioned this on another thread, but perhaps its something you need to know. According to the Wikipedia entry on “Homicide in Israeli Law”…

          The premeditated killing of a person, or the intentional killing of a person whilst committing, preparing for, or escaping from any crime, is murder. The mandatory punishment for this crime is life imprisonment. Life is usually commuted (clemency from the President) to 30 years from which a third can be deducted by the parole board for good behaviour. Arab terrorists are not usually granted pardons or parole other than as part of deals struck with Arab terrorist organisations or foreign governments, and in exchange for captured Israelis or their corpses.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          So, in plain English, if these Palestinian prisoners had instead been Israeli citizens, not only would they have had the legal protections of a fair trial, which they are denied in Israeli military courts, but most if not all of them would have been up for parole and/or released by now.

          You are gnashing your teeth over the release of prisoners who would have already been released, had they been Jews. I fail to see why this is considered such a “sacrifice” to you, when releasing Israeli citizens who murder happens after the same amount of jail time, unless you admit that you don’t believe in equal treatment under the law.

          For an example of this treatment of Israeli murderers, see here:

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          Samuel Sheinbein

          Committed a heinous murder in the US, fled to Israel, which refused extradition. Tried in Israel, sentenced to 24 years in prison, eligible for parole in 16 years.

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          Ami Popper:

          link to en.wikipedia.org

          Killed 7 Palestinian civilians standing at a bus stop in cold blood, and injured 30 more. Sentenced to 7 life terms, commuted to 40 years, eligible for parole in 33 years. He married while in prison, was allowed conjugal visits, fathered several children, and has been allowed out on numerous weekend furloughs, on one of which he killed his wife and one child in a car accident caused by his reckless driving.

          And for an example of the Israeli treatment of Jewish terrorist groups that kill Palestinian civilians, see here, from 1990:

          3 Israeli Terrorists Are Released In 4th Reduction of Their Terms

          Three Jewish militants were freed today after serving less than seven years for killing three Arabs and maiming two Palestinian mayors in car bombings. They were greeted as heroes by fellow Jewish settlers.

          The three, members of the Jewish Underground, which carried out attacks in the West Bank in the early 1980′s, were granted a reduction of their original life sentences three times by Israeli President Chaim Herzog. They were then released on good behavior in a fourth cut in their terms.

          Dozens of West Bank settlers danced and chanted outside Maasiyahu Prison in Ramle, a town in central Israel, as the three former members of the underground — Menachem Livni, Shaul Nir and Uzi Sharbav — were released.

          Members of the crowd hoisted the three men on their shoulders, and Noam Arnon of the Gush Emunim settler movement praised them. ‘They Are Heroes’

          “They are heroes because they decided to sacrifice themselves, their future, their families, for the security of Jews,” he said on Israel radio.

          About a dozen Israeli liberals held a counter-demonstration to protest the early release.

          “This is a message of contempt for human life, of making a difference between one type of life and another, and it violates the basic tenet of equality before the law,” said Yitzhak Zamir, a former Attorney General.

          The three settlers were the last of 27 members of the Jewish Underground to be freed from prison.

          The group carried out car bombings in which two West Bank Mayors, Bassam Shaka of Nablus and Karim Halaf of Ramallah, lost limbs and a grenade and gun attack that killed three students and wounded 30 others at Hebron’s Islamic College.

          more at link

          link to nytimes.com

          Seven years total for killing 3, and maiming one in attempted murder.

          As I said above, the release of the Palestinian prisoners is not some great sacrifice for Israel. It is simply applying similar standards to these Palestinian prisoners that it applies to citizens of Israel who commit murder, and yet claiming its some great “peace gesture”. Its not. Its a cynical gesture.

        • miriam6 says:

          Annie Robbins@;

          Evidently you need to be reminded that Mondoweiss claims to be engaged in a war of ideas

          Well perhaps a war of ideas looks a lot like this thread.

          Did you really imagine the release of those prisoners would pass without hostile comment?

          Really?

          Presumably you were hoping for a whole slew of mawkish comments like this one;

          it must have been magical being there. all those loved one after so many years.

          comments empathising with and praising the steadfast families of those whose dear relatives spent time in Israeli jails for bravely axing to death elderly men sitting on park benches, and killing French tourists.

          Your comment here makes no sense whatsoever ;

          and here she is patting herself on the back for highjacking the thread: It so happens that the question of what the released Palestinian prisoners actually DID – is now a subject for discussion here..).

          Your comment makes no sense because in order for the prisoners to BE released from prison in the first place , well – they had to do something first…

          If they hadn’t been out murdering French tourists 23 years ago and the like they would have been at home the whole time leading blameless un -newsworthy lives and this thread wouldn’t exist…therefore the hijacking allegation is bunk.

          Annie said@;

          no one here is claiming zionism is uniquely evil.

          However your assertion is completely undermined by American’s comment right here;

          .. there’s hardly a dime’s worth of difference in the *mentality* that was behind nazism and what is zionism today.

          Thus American’s comment proves my point.

          Analogies and parallels with Zionism/Nazism are ONLY EVER drawn on this site with reference to Israel and the I /P conflict.

          I have yet to see any commenter when discussing American crimes , drawing the same Nazi analogies/ parallels.

          No commenter, or certainly not on any regular basis comment that America’s policies as a Superpower or any other countries policies remind them of Nazi Germany.

          By contrast commenters are always eager to make comparisons between Nazi Germany and Israel.

          It was in that context that I made my comments

          Those equivalences just don’t happen on this site , that commenters compare , for example , Guantanamo Bay to a Nazi death camp, or the Warsaw Ghetto

          BTW since you evidently and in a paranoid fashion feel you are beset by so-called trolls at every turn, and under siege by so-called trolls you ought to read this:

          link to blogs.telegraph.co.uk

        • Shingo says:

          Your comment makes no sense because in order for the prisoners to BE released from prison in the first place , well – they had to do something first…

          Stop embarrassing yourself any further Miriam. Not even the Israeli government agrees with your position on this, as they readily admit that there are at least 1000 Palestinians in administrative detention – prisoners who are held without being charged.

          If they hadn’t been out murdering French tourists 23 years ago and the like they would have been at home the whole time leading blameless un -newsworthy lives and this thread wouldn’t exist…therefore the hijacking allegation is bunk.

          No yours is bunk and you are indeed hijacking/trolling/spamming this threat with your diatribes. Because as everyone knows, and which you refuse to admit, the difference between them and Israelis guilty of the similar crimes is that the Palestinians do not have the power to imprison Israelis and try them for murder.

          Everyone can see right though your Caroline Glick routine here. Your outrage is selective and riddled with so much insufferable hypocrisy that you can’t possibly be taken seriously. While you express your faux outrage over the release of the the alleged perpetrators of French tourists 23 years ago, your absence from the thread exposing

          French tourists 23 years ago your absence of comment or opinion over the IDF video showing men laughing as Palestinian is brutally murdered is glaringly obvious.
          link to mondoweiss.net

          You don’t have a problem with murderers Miriam, just so long as the victims are Palestinians.

          Mind you, your dishonesty runs so deep, you even lie to yourself. Here you are defending Zionism like Caroline Glick and yet you deny you are a Zionist. Can anyone seriously be that self delusional?

        • miriam6 says:

          Also this sentence by Woody on this very page proves my point yet again

          I have never seen any comparisons made by anti – Israel/ anti-Zionist commenters here on this site between the Warsaw Ghetto and Guantanamo Bay or adjudging America’s actions in it’s invasion of Iraq or Vietnam to be like the Nazi Holocaust.

          Woody@ said:

          If that were the case then they would ‘t repeatedly vote for governments whose policies include sending idf terror squads into the West Bank and on on the edge

          of the Warsaw Ghetto which they’ve turned Gaza into.

        • Hostage says:

          I have yet to see any commenter when discussing American crimes , drawing the same Nazi analogies/ parallels.

          I think if you poke around you will find comments exactly like that in the archives in reference to the anti-miscegenation laws in the United States during the Nazi era.

          Miriam commenters here call our political leaders fascists all the time. But we don’t have any mainstream political movements here like the ones in Israel preaching that there is a metaphysical connection between our people and a patch of soil somewhere that gives us the right to exercise sovereignty over the other inhabitants there.

          You are trolling the threads here. Your comments are the usual shopworn hasbara talking points, whataboutisms, and personal insults.

          By contrast commenters are always eager to make comparisons between Nazi Germany and Israel.

          Why not? The Jewish Agency for Palestine/Israel, the WZO, and the Zionist regimes in Israel are the result of the same 19th century “blood and soil” political movements that preach the same metaphysical racial nonsense. The Zionist Organization and its subsidiaries were a business and they had a longstanding formal business partnership with the Nazis regime. Israel adopted a Nazi Collaborators Act, because collaboration had been perceived to be a common enough practice among some of the citizens and officials of Israel.

          Those equivalences just don’t happen on this site , that commenters compare , for example , Guantanamo Bay to a Nazi death camp, or the Warsaw Ghetto

          You should have no trouble finding articles, threads, and comments here that condemn Gitmo and the secret network of US prisons as illegal, barbaric, war crimes, that are taking place on illegally occupied Cuban territory e.g.:
          * link to mondoweiss.net
          * link to mondoweiss.net
          * link to mondoweiss.net

          If you want to make a comparison to the Warsaw ghetto or a Nazi death camp go right ahead. That was the whole point of codifying the Nuremberg Principles. War crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide are common place events that should be publicly named and shamed.

          The point is that Mondoweiss isn’t going to stop discussions of those sort of comparisons when Israel or we Jews happen to be committing or abetting the human rights abuses, nor should we. Even the mainstream press occasionally sheds some light on the subject through such comparisons, e.g.:
          *UN human rights official: Gaza evokes memories of Warsaw Ghetto UN rapporteur on human rights says there’s enough evidence that Israel committed war crimes in Gaza. link to haaretz.com
          *PM labels Gaza a ‘prison camp’: Fury as Cameron calls for lifting of blockade and attacks Israel link to dailymail.co.uk

        • miriam6 says:

          Shingo@;

          …and which you refuse to admit, the difference between them and Israelis guilty of the similar crimes is that the Palestinians do not have the power to imprison Israelis and try them for murder.

          Are you saying that Palestinians have no agency of their own?

          No agency of their own with which to distinguish between civilian or military targets in their fight?

          Are you saying that Palestinians are no more than mindless puppets helpless to avoid targeting civilians within the Green Line all because of Israel , because there are no Israeli prisoners in PA jails?

          Seriously?

          It certainly appears that way

          BTW what a poor standard of Palestinian self determination you hold to if the ability to imprison Israelis is your gold standard ultimate prize and measure of that self-determination.

          your absence of comment or opinion over the IDF video showing men laughing as Palestinian is brutally murdered is glaringly obvious.

          Actually I did comment , and to re-iterate my comment on that thread I said ;

          In the source (This is Gaza ) quoted in the MW article , Ali Abunimah comments about the video saying that:

          but need to have more info..

          link to twitter.com

          At this present time Electronic intifada have chosen NOT to publish that video nor has any reference been published on EI about the story MW chose to publish.

          Presumably meaning that EI may continue to have doubts about the possible authenticity of the video.

          Other than MW I have seen little or no mention of the video MW published OUTSIDE of MW the Facebook posting and the This is gaza twitter feed.

          Check for yourself;

          link to electronicintifada.net

        • seafoid says:

          Miriam

          Can you explain how you understand Gaza and why Israel does what it does there?

        • Walid says:

          “Israel adopted a Nazi Collaborators Act, because collaboration had been perceived to be a common enough practice among some of the citizens and officials of Israel. ” (Hostage)

          Glad to see it mentioned.

        • American says:

          ‘miriam6 says:
          August 18, 2013 at 11:50 am
          Also this sentence by Woody on this very page proves my point yet again

          I have never seen any comparisons made by anti – Israel/ anti-Zionist commenters here on this site between the Warsaw Ghetto and Guantanamo Bay or adjudging America’s actions in it’s invasion of Iraq or Vietnam to be like the Nazi Holocaust.”>>>>>>

          Well- if you’d read the comments of people here instead of just cherrypickng and lookng for something to deflect from or defend Israel on you would have seen plenty of them.

      • Obsidian says:

        The old Jew was axed to death while sitting on a public bench, not a public beach.
        Kfar Saba has no beach. Look at a map, moron.

        • yrn says:

          “The old Jew was axed to death while sitting on a public bench”
          There was an Interview with her daughter, she mentioned that she never wanted to know who the killer is, as he butchered her father with the Axe, with no reason while sitting on the bench and never even knew him.
          As she mentioned, if this will contribute to the peace process, she is sad but willing to accept.
          Most Israelis condemn every death of a Civilian with no reason.
          You will always find some fanatics, but as here 100% are accepting those killers as Annie stated a Miracle, shows the character of the hypocrites humanist here.
          A killer is a killer, but not here.

        • Shingo says:

          Most Israelis condemn every death of a Civilian with no reason.

          How do you know that? They camped out on hilltops overlooking Gaza as the bloodbath ensued and celebrated.

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          “Most Israelis condemn every death of a Civilian with no reason.”

          LOL. Baloney. If that were the case then they would ‘t repeatedly vote for governments whose policies include sending idf terror squads into the West Bank and on on the edge of the Warsaw Ghetto which they’ve turned Gaza into. Those policies guarantee that many, many innocent Palestinians will die. But the average Jew in israeli state doesn’t care. He wants the people from whom he stole the land to let him get away with his crimes and he wants everyone to stop pointing out the blood that is on his hands.

        • eljay says:

          >> A killer is a killer, but not here.

          The hypocrisy of such a statement coming from a Zio-supremacist – one of a hateful and immoral “collective” prepared to excuse all manner of killing as a Jew is the one doing the killing – is really quite impressive.

        • Hostage says:

          Most Israelis condemn every death of a Civilian with no reason.

          I’ve never seen any evidence of that. It’s a fact that the international community of states have agreed that certain human rights are so fundamental that they are recognized and protected without any exceptions – even in war time. But left wing and right wing Israeli regimes alike have emphatically stated, that so long as Israel unilaterally chooses to engage in armed conflict against the Palestinians or decides to subject their territory to belligerent occupation, the Palestinians are not entitled to the rights that are enjoyed by human beings. Almost every day Palestinians are murdered in cold blood, and no excuse offered or needed other than to say another “militant” was killed. Very few Israelis, like those in B’tselem, Yesh Din, ACRI, and the public committees against torture and home demolitions have taken issue with that inhuman official Israeli government policy. See CCPR/C/ISR/2001/2, para 8 or E/1990/6/Add.32, para 6-7

        • American says:

          ”but as here 100% are accepting those killers as Annie stated a Miracle, shows the character of the hypocrites humanist here.
          A killer is a killer, but not here.”…..yrn

          Nope, all it shows is we arent accepting your hypocriscy that when Jews or Israelis kill it’s ‘justified’ but when Palestines do it it’s not.
          No one here said that particular killing was o.k. or justifed.
          At best we said this targeting of a civilian Israeli Jew is the kind of thing that happens since Israel does what it does to Palestines.

        • yrn says:

          Hostage
          “Almost every day Palestinians are murdered in cold blood.”
          Is that what you tell your children too.
          Go to B’tselem (or they are propaganda for you too)
          There report of 2013 indicates 10 Palestinians who were killed.
          That’s Almost everyday for you ????

        • Woody Tanaka says:

          yrn,

          Telling that you take issue with the number of innocent Palestininans are murdered in cold blood, rather than the fact that they are. And you certainly don’t condemn the morality of what you israelis do. So, tell me, in your world view, exactly how many Palestinians are you people allowed to kill in cold blood before it is too many??

        • as Annie stated a Miracle, shows the character of the hypocrites humanist here.

          lol, here’s what i said: link to mondoweiss.net

          what a special report. it must have been magical being there. all those loved one after so many years.

        • Cliff says:

          How many Jews were killed yrn?

        • tree says:

          According to BTselem, there have been 525 Palestinians killed by the Israeli forces or Israel civilians since the end of Cast Lead on January 19, 2009 until June 30, 2013. Supposedly a period of “relative calm”.

          A quick back of the envelope arithmetic makes that 4 years, 5 months and12 days, or 1622 days total. 1622/ 525 equals 3.089. So, on average, during this recent “period of relative calm” a Palestinian has been killed every 3 days. Sounds pretty close to “almost every day” to me.

          During the same time period, 32 Israeli citizens have been killed. 1622/32= 50, or, on average, one every 50 days. Sixteen times as many Palestinian as Israelis have been killed during this time. During times of conflict the difference in numbers and averages is even more lopsided.

          link to btselem.org

        • eljay says:

          >> … as a Jew is the one doing the killing …

          Correction: >> … as long as a Jew is the one doing the killing …

        • MHughes976 says:

          I am willing to accept that most Israelis, like most others, condemn killing when it has no good reason but accept, perhaps with some regret, that there are some good reasons that justify homicide in some circumstances. I think that the likes of us outsiders and misfits differ from the majority of Israelis about what a good reason amounts to.

        • Hostage says:

          Hostage
          “Almost every day Palestinians are murdered in cold blood.”
          Is that what you tell your children too.

          No, you stupid troll. My middle aged children and grandchildren can read the English editions of the Israeli daily newspapers all by themselves.

          Even during periods of relative calm, hardly a day or two goes by without one or more reports about a few “militants” being killed in the occupied territories. Frankly, you can browse the Palestine Post and see that the situation really hasn’t changed all that much, since the days the British were occupying the place and facilitating colonization. As I’ve already noted the Palestinian casualty rates have always outstripped those of the poor victimized Zionists by a margin of 2 to 1 or 4 to 1 killed or wounded.

          On the other hand, “You’ve Got to Be Carefully Taught” to hate Arabs and say all the ridiculously racist things Israeli and Zionist officials get away with in those same newspapers day-in and day-out, e.g. “If you think I’m a racist, then Israel is a racist state”; If you catch a terrorist, then you just have to kill him. I have killed lots of Arabs in my life – and there is no problem with that.”

          That’s not hard to believe, since Anat Kamm is in jail for revealing documents which proved the IDF has ignored Supreme Court rulings and continues to kill suspects instead of arresting them and brining them to trial.

          Is that what you teach your children to do Yrn?

        • RoHa says:

          “So, tell me, in your world view, exactly how many Palestinians are you people allowed to kill in cold blood before it is too many?? ”

          Too many Palestinians killed?
          Does not compute in Zionist thought.

        • yrn says:

          Woody Tanaka
          Ignorant, read the report first before you jump with your typical routineת I knew it is coming from a persona like you .
          someone who Throw a Molotov cocktail is not innocent and not murdered in cold blood.
          Second I CONDEMN those killings too.
          Did you or anyone here condemn those Palestinian killers that killed innocent civilians in Israel NEVER.

        • yrn says:

          Hostage

          Why don’t you read Betselm, (or they are propaganda for you….)
          Count the number of 2013…… is it every day a kill.
          You mumble here with your cut a paste and push yourself as the wise guy.
          So if you claim the every day there is a kill, go and look for evidence and don’t throw words and accusations.
          We are at 2013, where is the everyday kill wise guy.

          BTW you brought up, that you tell and guide your next Generation regarding your “thoughts” about “not hating the Jews” and the Zionist movement.
          Ca’t they read for them self those issues, you mentioned they read English, so why don’t you let them read and discover for them self and not your disturbed Ideas’s.

        • yrn says:

          BTW wise guy hostage.
          I do not support the act of Anat Kamm act, which is illegal and I don’t support illegal acts in any case.
          But I strongly support her motives and he desire, in case she found something witch is immoral or not in the census of the society.

          I support that if she found out that acts regarding Palestinians could save life’s, she must have in other way, make the Israeli public aware, as this is the Israeli Moral and that is why the Israeli press and public is so aware and dose the Max to expose issues like that and as you know the Israeli public reacts to those issues.
          It is not the first and last time that issues like that are exposed.

        • yrn says:

          Roha

          You will be surprised by , we are not aloud to kill even one Palestinian in Cold Blood.
          But refresh your ignorance and read the report before you jump in with those stupid remarks.

        • yrn says:

          Roha

          The great Humanist.
          Have you ever raised a question to Taxi asking
          ““So, tell me, in your world view, exactly how many Syrian is Asad allowed to kill in cold blood before it is too many?? ” 100,000 and more…..
          Or In Egypt 1000 and more……..

        • Hostage says:

          BTW you brought up, that you tell and guide your next Generation regarding your “thoughts” about “not hating the Jews” and the Zionist movement.
          Ca’t they read for them self those issues, you mentioned they read English, so why don’t you let them read and discover for them self and not your disturbed Ideas’s.

          I never said any such thing. I taught my children that persons of Jewish descent can lead perfectly normal lives among Gentiles; that political Zionism is a form of racism and riddled with racketeering; that fear of assimilation is a personality disorder; and that Herzl and Kahane represented the right and left extremes, were both full of shit, and made their livings spouting it.

        • Hostage says:

          Hostage

          Why don’t you read Betselm, (or they are propaganda for you….)

          I would answer you but tree beat me to it. On average a Palestinian was killed every three days during the period of the B’tselem report she cited. Of course there are periods of unrest or conflict where Palestinians are killed nearly every day, and in numbers that are always much higher the the corresponding Jewish casualty figures. Its pointless to even try to deny that or ask me to read the reports, when I already have.

          link to mondoweiss.net

        • seafoid says:

          That is a lie, Obsidian.

          And why don’t you call him an Israeli? Why are all Israelis who are murdered referred to exclusively as Jews?

  9. DavidK says:

    Every society has its criminals, psychotics and killers, and Israel is no exception. Good point except no society but Israel elects its criminals and psychotics prime minister e.g. Begin, Shamir, and Sharon.

  10. eljay says:

    >> Mugdad is among 104 prisoners Israel intends to release …

    So what? He went to jail for his crime. If he commits another crime, arrest him, try him and, if he’s found guilty, jail him again.

    Meanwhile, blame the supremacist “Jewish State” for releasing him.

    Regardless, his release in no way justifies or excuses:
    - past and ON-GOING (war) crimes committed by Zio-supremacist Jews;
    - the occupation and colonization of Palestine; or
    - the existence of an oppressive and supremacist “Jewish State”.

  11. Ditto for other Palestinian prisoners. Every society has its criminals, psychotics and killers, and Israel is no exception. But it says something……

    fnlevit, please do not ever post verbatim from news articles without either quote marks, blockquotes (preferably accompanied by links) thereby implying these are your words/text. . this paragraph is copied directly from the WSJ.

    mods have to check all your posts for plagiary you won’t last long here. you are not “basing these comments on a publication” you are copy pasting:

    South Africa has Nelson Mandela, Poland has John Paul II, and Burma has Aung San Suu Kyi: Though the measure isn’t exact

    copied straight from link to online.wsj.com

    please respect fair use and not post whole articles in one or several comments makes no difference. learn to link and provide url and limit the copy paste. any other questions you have please address them in the comment policy thread here: link to mondoweiss.net

    thanks, and stop trolling.

  12. kalithea says:

    So while Israelis release Palestinians through the front door for show to induce stupidity, they arrest other Palestinians and imprison them through the back door.

    link to english.pnn.ps

    link to maannews.net

    Peace talks my azzzzzzzzz! More Zionist phony baloney delay tactics to steal even more land and delay justice! Kerry’s the devil’s advocate par excellence.

    Resistance and BDS is the only method Zionists fear will accelerate justice. Unfortunately, Zionists are masters at herding the masses into Stupid Zone: leave your brain at the door, please.

    More useless, endless blather supporting indefinite injustice and again everyone’s wolfing down the deception.

    • amigo says:

      “Peace talks my azzzzzzzzz! More Zionist phony baloney delay tactics to steal even more land and delay justice! Kerry’s the devil’s advocate par excellence.”Kalithea

      The truth is the Zionist project is finished.We are watching the unraveling of the Zionist dream of of The Greater Israel.

      I just wish it would unravel slightly more quickly.

  13. Jewish Zionists and Palestinian Arabs have been locked in a brutal, bitter, sometimes barbaric battle, in some sense since 1920. This site is tilted to view the Jewish Zionists as colonialists and therefore fair game for the natives to treat with dispatch in order to discourage their interloping. (If you don’t want to get shot at, go somewhere else or at the least get permission from the Palestinian Arabs to be there.) But there are Jews, and nonJewish observers as well, who view the continuity from 1920 and see the Jewish Zionist battle for the land as something natural, normal and a sign of a will to survive. To them Jewish presence in the land is a positive. They do not view the Jews as interlopers, but as a phoenix rising from the ashes.

    The proponents of the Palestinian Arabs would object. The ashes are in Europe, why are you rising here? But more to the point of the historical development of the Jewish nationalist movement, how is it that the only way for you to rise from the ashes is to exile the Palestinian Arabs from their homes?

    And it is in this context that you view the men released from prison, some of whom seem to have killed civilians, as heroes.

    I do not view them as heroes. I do not even want to read the details to determine if someone was sitting on a public bench or a public beach. There is much blood on both sides and I am dumbfounded towards the future and certainly not obsessed with the past.
    But I feel kinship with those whose relatives were murdered and their pain when their murderers are set free. My relationship to this bloody conflict is such, that I try to allow myself to feel the pain of the other, but neither may I dull the pain I feel for my brother.

    • Elliot says:

      Yonah,
      Thank you for trying to expand the range of your feelings to include the pain of others. I don’t think you have need to dull your feelings of pain for your brothers to do that.
      I’m wary though of bringing feelings in as a given fact. Feelings are necessarily an expression of political commitments. You allow yourself to have feelings about people and ideas you feel valuable. That’s a moral judgement. For example, if you oppose any violence as a political tool, you will likely reject both the Palestinian prisoners and the IDF. Consider if you feel the same pain you just described for those of your Jewish brothers and sisters who have lost jobs, been physically brutalized and otherwise isolated and attacked because of their solidarity with the Palestinian movement. I didn’t think so.
      On the hero question. Of course, the indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Israel is abhorrent. I basically go with Hostage’s distinction. If Palestinians attacked soldiers violently enforcing the Occupation, knowing they would spend many years in harsh prison conditions, why wouldn’t their community welcome them homes as heroes?

    • Woody Tanaka says:

      “Jewish Zionists and Palestinian Arabs have been locked in a brutal, bitter, sometimes barbaric battle, in some sense since 1920.”

      European zionists were making their plans to attack, invade and steal Palestine well before 1920.

      “see the Jewish Zionist battle for the land as something natural, normal and a sign of a will to survive.”

      So what? They’re wrong. Some people say white suppremacy as “natural, normal and a sign to a will to survive.” The entire Nazi race theory was described by them in almost exactly these terms.

      “But more to the point of the historical development of the Jewish nationalist movement, how is it that the only way for you to rise from the ashes is to exile the Palestinian Arabs from their homes?”

      And that is exactly right.

      “But I feel kinship with those whose relatives were murdered and their pain when their murderers are set free.”

      How about when your relatives are the murderers?

      “My relationship to this bloody conflict is such, that I try to allow myself to feel the pain of the other, but neither may I dull the pain I feel for my brother.”

      And here is where you are copping to bigotry, but try to hide it. If you cannot apply a principle to yourself and your own people, then you have no principles. And if you have no principles, then there is no basis for you to cry foul when your people are the underdog, getting crushed by a larger, more powerful party.

    • ritzl says:

      @yonah fredman I too thank you for your attempt at explanation.

      When you say (or third-party your own beliefs):

      … see the Jewish Zionist battle for the land as something natural, normal and a sign of a will to survive.

      you illustrate the core of the problem in these discussions. You truncate the rationale (“will to survive”) in order to make it palatable to yourself, if not universally (who doesn’t have a “will to survive”). The problem is you leave off the rest of the truth; that it is a will to survive in this one particular place and at the extreme expense of the people living there. That is, you make a punitive, confiscatory, less-than-zero-sum situation look like a simple common-man aspiration. It is nothing of the kind.

      It is not normal. It is an abhorrent, violent, predatory, deadly, and ongoing practice that’s happening just a few meters and just over a wall away from your, or maybe your relatives, front door.

      So when I and others say that Zionism and Zionists need to re-examine their foundational mythology, this is exactly what I (and maybe others) are talking about. If you have to completely change the character of what you’re doing to make it palatable even to yourself, something is very Very VERY wrong with the core concept.

      Address your mythology.

    • RoHa says:

      “This site is tilted to view the Jewish Zionists as colonialists”

      They were Europeans who entered the country with the avowed intent of setting up a state in which they would be top dogs and the natives would be either subjugated or expelled. Difficult not to view them as colonialists.

      • Hostage says:

        Difficult not to view them as colonialists.

        Especially since the Second Zionist Congress established the first Zionist bank and named it the Jewish Colonial Trust in 1899. The Anglo-Palestine Bank was formed as a subsidiary in 1902.

    • seafoid says:

      “But I feel kinship with those whose relatives were murdered and their pain when their murderers are set free. My relationship to this bloody conflict is such, that I try to allow myself to feel the pain of the other, but neither may I dull the pain I feel for my brother.”

      Well articulated. Actually Israel can’t manage the violence to a level consistent with its rhetoric. There are many Jewish victims of Israel’s thoughtless policies but in the big picture the people running Israel aren’t particularly concerned. It’s always others who are called on to make sacrifices. That is the way states run by the military work.

    • talknic says:

      @ yonah fredman “There is much blood on both sides”

      Indeed. Alas Israel spills blood not in its own territory, defending its own territory. Israel is in other folks territory. Territory it has illegally acquired by war, violence, killing. Illegally annexed or never even attempted to annex. Illegally settled territory it wishes to keep.

      Israel has been operating thus outside the law for 65 years. Every death it has caused while illegally acquiring non-Israeli territory is MURDER. Not one of Israel’s murderers are in Palestinian custody. They’ve not been dispossessed. Their land has not been taken. A great many of them live in freely in non-Israeli territory and they’re treated as heroes.

    • Cliff says:

      Wondering Jew is a settler Zionist so no wonder he is opposed to the notion that Jewish colonists are Jewish colonists.

      This conflict has had violence ‘on both sides’ but Israel has committed vastly more violence.

      Israel has no legitimacy. The Palestinian people are the indigenous population. You and your lot are thieves (with an exception for the Jewish minority that originated from Palestine).

  14. eljay says:

    >> My relationship to this bloody conflict is such, that I try to allow myself to feel the pain of the other, but neither may I dull the pain I feel for my brother.

    If you felt the pain of all people equally – if you didn’t divide the world into “brothers” and “others” – you wouldn’t have to worry about allocating your feelings.

    You might even find yourself advocating for justice for all people, equally.

    But then you wouldn’t get to be a Zio-supremacist anymore.

    • eljay and elliot- to quote robert zimmerman from Minnesota:
      Well i try my best to be just like I am
      but everybody want you to be just like them…
      and I just get bored.

      • eljay says:

        eljay and elliot- to quote robert zimmerman from Minnesota:
        Well i try my best to be just like I am
        but everybody want you to be just like them…
        and I just get bored.

        Equality with one’s fellow man and equal justice for all men is boring. Wow. Zio-supremacism truly is a sad state of mind.

        • el jay- Preachers bore me. Holier than thou people bore me. People who have no patience to listen, but only to yell in each others’ ears bore me. Sloganeers bore me. You bore me.

          Justice doesn’t bore me, but your slogans regarding justice bore me. Is there no nuance, no insight, other than slogans in your repertoire? Maybe, and you’re holding it back for the last minute. Meanwhile you need no thought. Just bring out the condemn tape and play it. Great. You and justice win. Me and hatred lose. We’ve learnt a lot today, boys and girls.

        • eljay says:

          >> el jay … You bore me … your slogans regarding justice bore me.

          Boo-hoo. :-(

          >> Is there no nuance, no insight, other than slogans in your repertoire?

          You don’t want nuance, you want validation. You want to hear:
          - That you and your hateful and immoral co-collectivists were right to terrorize Palestinians and ethnically cleanse them from their homes and lands.
          - That you were right to create an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state.
          - That you’ve been right to continue for over 60 years with your campaign of aggression, oppression, theft, colonization, destruction and murder.
          - That you should not be held accountable for your past and on-going (war) crimes.
          - That you should not be required to honour your commitments under international law.
          - That you should not be expected to negotiate in good faith for a just and mutually-beneficial peace.
          - That because others fail to do right, you are justified in pursuing wrong.

          I’m afraid I’m too “boring” to offer you the validation you need. You’ll have to ask your hateful and immoral “brothers” for it.

        • Shingo says:

          Is there no nuance, no insight, other than slogans in your repertoire?

          Nuance is only sometime you hasbrats are concerned with when it comes to Israel’s crimes. Used in any other context and it would bore you.

        • Elliot says:

          Yonah,
          Several posters here besides me have acknowledged your post and your feelings. I’ve asked you to discuss your position. You feel the pain of your “brother” but you do not define who is a “brother”: is it a fellow Jew, Jewish Israelis, or a Jewish Israeli who falls within a certain spectrum of political identity or somebody else? Who is not your “brother”? What is it about kinship that defines your scope of sympathy for victims of murder?
          Since you expressed your feelings in a political forum it’s only fair to ask you these questions.

        • Elliot- In this context: the release of prisoners by Israel in order to sweeten the equation of the beginning of the talks (which otherwise would have been poisoned by the building in settlements) is the occasion for my comments and I use the word “brother” to refer to Jewish Israelis whose loved ones were murdered and whose murderers were released. And I specifically feel the pain of those (relatives of those) victims who were killed were civilians in green line Israel. And if Arab Israelis were also killed, I feel a governmental kinship with their Israeliness and their victimhood and a responsibility to protect them as well, but probably not the same I feel for Jewish Israelis.

          Recently a photo of an Egyptian woman (mother) sitting near the dead bodies (including two of her sons?) killed by the military in Egypt in recent days pulled on my heart strings. The question of how Egypt will fare in the aftermath of the coup or how Egypt would have fared if the generals had restrained themselves from “coup-ing”? are valid questions but do not in the end measure up to a mother near the dead bodies of her sons in a warehouse of dead bodies. These are in the present tense and the killing in Egypt actually is nearer to me than killings that occurred 15 or 20 years ago even if it was someone with whom I share ethnic kinship.

          In September 2003, an acquaintance from Chicago, Dr. David Applebaum was murdered by a bomb on Emek Refaim street. His daughter who was to be married the next day was with him and she was murdered as well. Applebaum was closer to the Bayit Yehudi political frame of mind, but I knew him and the story tugged on my heart.

          (I recall that one of the Hebrew University Mount Scopus students who were murdered by a bomb in 2002, was a member of Women in Black, but Hamas insisted in reporting her affiliation with Women in Green, a right wing group rather than Women in Black, a “left wing” group because they couldn’t juggle the thought of killing a Woman in Black, but felt quite affirmed in calling her a Woman in Green.)

          I do not obsess with people sitting in jail to pay for the crimes they committed. The path forward in Israel (and in Syria and in Egypt as well) is not encouraging and that is closer to my thoughts than the punishment of prisoners held by Israel. But the discussion had ranged to the point of calling all of the released Palestinians heroes, even when their victims were civilians and so I participated in the “conversation”.

        • Shingo says:

          Nicely put Yonah,

          I rarely agree with you, but your personal story reminds me of Miko Peled’s recollection of the murder of his niece by a suicide bomber. The way he describes it brings me to tears, and really does bring home the incredible pain the surviving victims of these crimes go through.

          Your story touches me the same way.

    • RoHa says:

      Well said, eljay.

  15. Hostage says:

    Meanwhile you need no thought. Just bring out the condemn tape and play it. Great. You and justice win. Me and hatred lose. We’ve learnt a lot today, boys and girls.

    No, learning is the acquisition of knowledge that results in a change of behavior.

    You’re bored from the repetition of a message that you don’t want to hear, but aren’t smart enough to type a different destination into your browser address bar.

  16. MHughes976 says:

    I think Hostage (a legend in his lifetime for patience) and others here are among the least self-righteous of people. We don’t want to parade our virtues before your tired eyes, we just want to win you over.