Latest ‘generous offer’ leaked: Israel wants to control Jordan River and 40% of West Bank while Palestinians get ‘temporary borders’

Israel/Palestine
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(Photo: Reuters)

(Photo: Reuters)

The Associated Press offers the first inside look inside the restarted Israeli-Palestinian peace process and it isn’t pretty. An unnamed Palestinian official has leaked Israel’s proposals so far:

The Palestinian official said formal talks on borders have not yet started, and that negotiations have focused on security matters. He said the Israelis want to retain control of the West Bank’s border with Jordan, keep early-warning stations on hilltops, and retain military bases near the Jordanian border.

“Israel is using the issue of security to take land,” he said. “From the general discussions we had in the last couple of weeks, the Israelis have shown no intention to dismantle any settlement.” He said the current proposals indicated that Israel would seek to retain control over about 40 percent of the West Bank.

“They said, ‘Let’s discuss a state with provisional borders.’ We said, ‘Let’s agree on a state based on the 1967 borders first, and then we can agree on having this state in phases.”

The Palestinians see this proposal as a non-starter, while Israel and U.S. are refusing to comment on the leak.

Haaretz also reports on a quote from Nabil Shaath in an interview with Ma’an News Agency:

[Shaath] said that the talks so far have only dealt with procedural issues and the topics to be discussed in further talks. “All that’s happened for a month and a half is that Israel has presented the topics it wishes to discuss.” According to Shaath, Israel wants to start the negotiations from scratch, without any reference to previous negotiations with former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Israel also insists on maintaining control over the Jordan River and on Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, according to Shaath.

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  1. K Renner
    September 5, 2013, 4:56 pm

    What a pathetic farce. Israel obviously doesn’t have any desire to create a just and lasting peace at all.

    I hope that the secular, united Palestinian resistance organizations sort their stuff out and come back on the scene as major players in the West Bank.

    • french_jew
      September 5, 2013, 5:22 pm

      “I hope that the secular, united Palestinian resistance organizations sort their stuff out and come back on the scene as major players in the West Bank.”

      It is not up to us to dictate the language Palestinians use (ie “secular”) to word their resistance.

      • K Renner
        September 6, 2013, 3:33 am

        I don’t intend to.
        But from an outsider’s perspective, the vast majority of the resistance organizations were secular– comprised of Muslims, Christians, and whoever else felt the same way about the actions of Israelis.

        In that regard, my characterization of “secular” is just based off of what I’ve read and seen of most of the resistance organizations, especially in West Bank– not as a dictation to the Palestinians as to how they “should” organize.

      • Bing Bong
        September 6, 2013, 4:46 am

        “It is not up to us to dictate the language Palestinians use (ie “secular”) to word their resistance.”

        Exactly, usually religious resistance is far more………..enthusiastic than civil, democratic and secular movements.

        But by the same token, do you have the right to dictate to Israel how they participate in peace talks when you venture forth your opinions/criticisms? As far as I can tell K Renner was expressing an opinion/criticism, not telling the religious Palestinians what to do.

      • Shingo
        September 6, 2013, 5:31 am

        But by the same token, do you have the right to dictate to Israel how they participate in peace talks when you venture forth your opinions/criticisms?

        Absolutely, seeing as Israel is the side that is in violation of international law and the Genevan Conventions . As you know, the reason these talks are talking place is to help remove the heat Israel is facing from the international community.

        The Palestinians don’t have to be there. They would be better of going to the UN and ICC. Israel on the other hand, cannot afford to do that.

      • Bing Bong
        September 6, 2013, 6:03 am

        “Absolutely, seeing as Israel is the side that is in violation of international law and the Genevan Conventions ”

        I look forward to you telling the Palestinians what is what when they do the same.

      • Shingo
        September 6, 2013, 6:29 am

        I look forward to you telling the Palestinians what is what when they do the same.

        Sorry, but I don’t do fiction

      • Hostage
        September 6, 2013, 7:31 am

        I look forward to you telling the Palestinians what is what when they do the same.

        The Palestinians have accepted the jurisdiction of the ICC for all serious crimes committed by anyone on their territory since July 2002. I look forward to Israel doing the same.

      • french_jew
        September 6, 2013, 12:06 pm

        Since I don’t know him or her, my comment to “K Renner” was based on a supposition that he or she a “progressive Jew”, since this is what this blog is all about. I’d tend to think everybody here is until showing the countrary…. maybe I’m wrong.

        Anyways, from this point of view, “progressive” jew being more critical of Israel than of Palestinian resistance is more legitimate because:
        - As jews whether we want it or not, Israel is “us” and it will remain so as long as zionism stays hegemonical among judaism which it has been since 1967, we criticize it from the inside (but this criticism IMO, should be done from a jewish perspective, taking into account the historical role of antisemitism in Europe and how jews have become the “guard dogs” of the West, which is not the best position to be in).
        - On the other hand, Palestinians are people that are being oppressed by a system which favors our Israeli “brothers”. Sympathetic paternalism is just one added layer of violence towards them, I think they could do without.

      • Bing Bong
        September 6, 2013, 2:16 pm

        They won’t break international law or Geneva Convention in the future? I admire your optimism.

      • Hostage
        September 6, 2013, 3:15 pm

        They won’t break international law or Geneva Convention in the future? I admire your optimism.

        I’ve already noted elsewhere that one of the first persons prosecuted under Cote d’Ivoire’s ad hoc acceptance of the Court’s jurisdiction was President Laurent Gbagbo, the official who made the Article 12(3) declaration. link to icc-cpi.int

        States can’t accept jurisdiction for limited purposes or specific cases. They can only accept the Court’s jurisdiction over any crimes committed on their territory or crimes committed by their own citizens against others.

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 4:11 am

        They won’t break international law or Geneva Convention in the future?

        So what are you asking for Bing Bong, condemnation for the violations they might commit in the future, but haven’t yet comitted?

        You want us to condemn the Palestinians for pre crimes is that it?

      • K Renner
        September 7, 2013, 12:47 pm

        The only thing I was really saying is that the secular groups are better in the sense that they seem, or at least in their real glory days, to have effective coordination with each other in their actions. They’re also more focused on a united Palestinian nationalist perspective, which is admirable.

        I don’t know all the facts about Hamas’ conservative Islamism, but the fact that they are conservatively Islamist does mean their idea of what defines a Muslim will be pretty narrow, and that I have an issue with- the dictating to people what they can and can’t do and “how they should” live, and so on.

        That being said, Hamas is more multifaceted then most other conservative Sunni Islamist groups– they’re certainly not in the ranks of the worst offenders, the takfiri/Wahhabi Islamists.

        As a postscript, it’s also worth noting that “secular” doesn’t imply absence of religion or anti-religion. The heads of the PLO as a whole for example, drank and smoked and did a lot of stuff that conservative or ultra conservative religious types frown on, and they all considered themselves Sunnis or Greek Orthodox.

      • K Renner
        September 7, 2013, 12:52 pm

        Since when have the Palestinians violated international law?

        Actually, I mean, and not just according to Israeli hypocrites.

      • Bing Bong
        September 8, 2013, 3:09 am

        Human shields, targeting civilians.

      • NCINA
        September 9, 2013, 1:19 am

        Israel ethnically cleansing over 8,000 Jews from Gaza and received a 500% increase in missile attacks. It is only prudent for security matters to be a priority. The s0-called “Palestinian” track record doesn’t inspire me with much confidence. Israel has nothing to go on but good faith and that is belief without evidence.
        link to israelnationalnews.com
        If the readers recall Abbas ignored an offer from Ehud Olmert which offered him land equaling between 97% and 100% of the ‘West Bank.’
        link to haaretz.com

        I

      • Shingo
        September 9, 2013, 3:15 pm

        Israel ethnically cleansing over 8,000 Jews from Gaza and received a 500% increase in missile attacks.

        Rubbish.

        1. You can’t ethnically cleanse your own ethnicity. Israel decided they did not want to maintain the occupation of Gaza (along with all the liabilities of occupation) so withdrew it’s forces and removed the illegal settlers

        2. Israel fired 7,700 shells into Gaza in the first 10 months after withdrawal and 14,400 in the first 18 months. That is more than all the rockets fired into Israel.

        The s0-called “Palestinian” track record doesn’t inspire me with much confidence.

        It’s the Israeli tack record you should be worried about, seeing as they are the ones that seek to sabotage all peace agreements. It has NEVER shown good faith.

        I repeat, the withdrawal from Gaza was not an act of peace, it was a means to maintain the occupation in the cheap.

        If the readers recall Abbas ignored an offer from Ehud Olmert which offered him land equaling between 97% and 100% of the ‘West Bank.’

        You need to update your talking points.

        1. Even Olmert denies Abbas ignored his offer
        2. The offer did NOT include anything close to between 97% and 100% of the ‘West Bank.’ That figure does not include the settlements which consume 40% of the West Bank alone, nor the Jordan Valley, nor did it even address East Jerusalem.

        Olmert didn’t even produce a goddam map.

        Hasbara fail!

  2. BillM
    September 5, 2013, 5:06 pm

    Israel wanted to discuss security, not land. So what have they been discussing? Security, not land.

    Palestine wants to discuss permanent borders with no remaining settlements or Israeli military presence. So what are they discussing? Temporary borders with the settlements and Israeli military control remaining.

    What a pathetic joke the Abbas regime is. It can’t even take its own side.

    • talknic
      September 6, 2013, 11:56 am

      @ BillM
      “Palestine wants to discuss permanent borders with no remaining settlements or Israeli military presence. So what are they discussing? Temporary borders with the settlements and Israeli military control remaining.”

      No they aren’t, Israel is. You need reading comprehension lessons

      • BillM
        September 6, 2013, 12:53 pm

        I think you’re confused. Discussions are between both parties.

  3. German Lefty
    September 5, 2013, 5:10 pm

    Israel obviously doesn’t have any desire to create a just and lasting peace at all.
    Of course not. If Israel were actually interested in peace and justice, it would simply start abiding by international law. The only purpose of these “peace talks” is sidestepping international law and coercing Palestinians into giving up their human rights and property rights.

    Different topic: Does anyone have an opinion on this weird article?
    “Journalist Miriam Widman Reflects on Her Life in Germany as a Jew”
    link to spiegel.de

  4. eljay
    September 5, 2013, 5:12 pm

    I thought the phrase was “Never again!” It seems that for hateful, immoral and greedy Zio-supremacists and their oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist “Jewish State” of (Greater) Israel, it’s actually “Never enough!”

    • MahaneYehude1
      September 6, 2013, 3:10 am

      @eljay:

      Reading many of your comments and others people comments, you repeat again and again “Zio-supremacists, colonialists, oppressive, apartheid” and so on and on. I have several simple questions and I hope you will be honest enough with your answers:

      How do you explain the fact that many Palestinians Israelis join the IDF in the last couple of years serve in apartheid army?

      Traditionally among the Israeli Muslims, after wedding the woman moves and lives with her husband Hamula (if possible). How do you explain the fact that when the husband is from the WB and the wife from Israel, he moves to Israel to live under the apartheid?

      And, when receives Israeli citizenship, he does all efforts to bring members of his family receive Israeli citizenship and live under Israeli apartheid. Why?

      When an Israeli politician offers “land exchange” solution, it is opposed by most of the Israeli Palestinians, claim “no thanks, we are Israeli citizens”. Could you, please, explain why they want continue live under the supremacist Israel?

      An Iraqi Bishop declared “Israel is the only safe place for Christians in the ME”. “Safe” under apartheid? How?

      Many Syrian refugees enter Israel to receive medical treatment from Israeli supremacist doctors. Why they do it? better die and don’t be treated by supremacists.

      I rarely use to add links in my comments, but for any above claims I can send credible links or sources.

      Well, I think I have more than 20 other questions. Let’s keep them for other time.
      I do thank you in advance.

      • Peacefan
        September 6, 2013, 4:16 am

        The Palestinian joining the IDF is because otherwise they get even more discriminated. You know, for jobs for example.
        They move to Israel because for a lot of them it’s home; they family just got thrown out by Israel in 47-48 and 67. Also, anything is better then living under occupation.
        The beginning of a Palestinian state , if it ever happen, will be hard, they had hard enough for long enough.
        The man was on drug or trying to be very very very diplomatic since his priests are being spat on all the time.
        Syrian will gladly been treated by anyone for the moment.
        Anything else?
        Oh, I can also send credible links, or you can keep on reading here

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 6, 2013, 4:48 am

        @Peacefan: Anything else? Yes, Sir!! if you have nothing to add but nonsense and don’t really know the complicated reality in Israel, better not reply. Better write that the soldiers, moving Palestinians and the Bishop were all on drugs. That explains all.

      • amigo
        September 6, 2013, 8:12 am

        @Peacefan: Anything else? Yes, Sir!! if you have nothing to add but nonsense and don’t really know the complicated reality in Israel, better not reply.MY

        The complicated reality in Israel is really rather simple.

        Israel is a criminal project run by land hungry zionist war mongers who have no intention of ceding,(sorry-giving back) the Palestinians what is legally theirs.

        Btw, should we be addressing you as Mahane Yehude1= fnlevit???.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 6, 2013, 11:50 am

        @Amigo: I will read Inanna, Eljay and your (below) comments carefully and will reply soon.

        Meanwhile, it is the first time I heard about fnlevit. Looking at his profile I learned that he is pro-Israeli like me declare that he Prof. in Weizmann Institute. It will be a great honor if a potato seller like me receive the new degree of Prof. So, you can call me fnlevit. Let’s see Monday the responses of my friends in the market to my new degree.

      • Shingo
        September 6, 2013, 4:53 am

        How do you explain the fact that many Palestinians Israelis join the IDF in the last couple of years serve in apartheid army?

        The same way you would explain the existence of Jews in WWII who collaborated or worked under the Nazis, or the 150,000 Jewish troops.

        An Iraqi Bishop declared “Israel is the only safe place for Christians in the ME”. “Safe” under apartheid? How?

        How because the US is not backing Al Qaeda in Israel the way they are in Syria.

        Many Syrian refugees enter Israel to receive medical treatment from Israeli supremacist doctors. Why they do it?

        To avoid dying from their wounds perhaps. I am sure some Jews were treated by Nazi doctors too in WWII.

      • Inanna
        September 6, 2013, 5:27 am

        They join the IDF so that they don’t get discriminated against for social benefits and jobs.

        Israel does not allow spouses from the West Bank or Gaza to emigrate to Israel anymore and uses this as a way to transfer as many Palestinian Israelis and their demographically threatening babies outside the Green Line.

        Having an Israeli passport means no checkpoints, far less hassle at the airport and borders, not living under military law, access to medical care (which Palestinians outside Israel must pay for fully) etc. But they do get discriminated against in all sorts of areas under nearly 30 laws and also receive far less in govt funding for schools, infrastructure, transport etc.

        Once again, most Palestinian Israelis won’t want to transfer their citizenship because they know that the new Palestinian state won’t be a real state at all – it will still be under the thumb of the Israelis. Better to be a hated minority than be a citizen of a pretend state that will still be under Israel’s thumb.

        I’m not sure what Iraqi Bishop said that but he’s wrong. Palestinian Christians were ethnically cleansed and killed by the Jews from 1947/8 until now. They share the same problems as their Muslim brothers and sisters – land theft, checkpoints, military rule, imprisonment, torture, administrative detention, occupation, siege etc. Which is why the Christian population of Israel/Palestine is shrinking, not growing. How about you tell my friend from Bethlehem that she can have her family’s land back – you know, the land they stole from her father?

        The Syrian ‘refugees’ you are talking about who enter Israel to be treated medically are actually rebel fighters whom the Israelis support. You won’t say that Israel has not offered to take any Syrian refugees in and only offered to take in Palestinians from Syria if they would renounce their right to return to Palestine. Shameful to use the fears these people have in a desperate situation to take away their rights from them – the fact that Israel asked this of them shows that they know the right of return is legitimate and is seeking Palestinian surrender.

        I have a feeling that you adding comments to your links won’t really help anything since they’re so full of hasbara that the links will be to. So save yourself the trouble.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 6, 2013, 1:21 pm

        @Inanna:
        First, let me comment about one of a big tragedy in the ME that many, including MW, ignore: The destruction of the Christian communities in the ME countries (except Israel). Well, in the last couple of years, since the “Spring”, many Christian communities were attacked by extremists, their churches and holy places were demolished, many of them were killed including priests and many of them left to Western countries. I am talking especially in Egypt and Syria but the worse situation is in Iraq where only 600,000 remain out of 2 million. The consequence of this tragedy is that many of them fill safe only in Israel and many join the army. You probably know the Palestinian Israeli MK Hanin Zubbi. Several months ago, an Israeli Christian priest, Gabriel Nadaf, asked the police to investigate Zubbi since, according to him, she threatened him since he encourage Palestinians join the IDF. So, those soldiers don’t join for ”benefits” but they realize that the freedom is here and they want to share it with us and be part of our society. Please, ask your Bethlehem’s friend what happened to the Christian community there and from whom they ask the Pope protect them. I hope you have also friend inside Israel that can confirm my claims about the Christian in Israel.

        How do you know which Syrian enter Israel? How do you know they are rebels? Is a 10 years old little girl is a rebel? There is no discrimination and any body needs treatment been treated. BTW, the claim that Israel supports the rebels is no more than assumption and only serves Israeli haters.

        Your Bethlehem friend wants justice for all refugees? I agree!!! The Syrian Palestinian refugees want their rights? I agree: Justice to all refugees of this conflict must be done: link to mondoweiss.net

        I am not running from other issues in your comments and will reply on them in my replies to Amigo and Eljay. BTW, stop call us “Hasbara”, I am tired of it. Thanks

      • Hostage
        September 6, 2013, 2:07 pm

        First, let me comment about one of a big tragedy in the ME that many, including MW, ignore: The destruction of the Christian communities in the ME countries (except Israel).

        Oh please! How many times has the Israeli Knesset adopted laws or considered forbidding Christians from engaging in any form of “religious proselytizing” in Israel? See for example: Proposed Israeli law would ban Christian missionaries link to cnn.com

        Here’s an article that recaps a few of the bills:

        “Anyone who preaches with the purpose of causing another person to change his religion is liable to three years imprisonment or a fine of NIS 50,000 (£9,000)”

        So reads a bill proposed by Raphael Pinchasi which received its preliminary reading in the Israeli Knesset on Wednsesday 20th May 1998. Known as the ‘anti mission’ bill the legislation has caused considerable controversy, especially within the Israeli Messianic Community.

        This is not the first time such legislation has been proposed in Israel. In December 1977 the first Anti Mission Law was quickly passed by the Knesset. No one had any warning of this and the timing, coinciding with Christmas, appeared more than coincidental. This penal law (5737-1977) made it an offence punishable by five years imprisonment to give a practical benefit as an inducement to change religion. Due to international criticism led by Church leaders throughout the world this law has never been enforced. The most recent legislation, proposed in 1997 by Nissim Zvili, which caused such a storm at the time now looks positively friendly to Christians by comparison.

        In case there were any ambiguity or doubt as to the intention, Pinchasi’s Bill adds this note, “the term we have translated “preach” (meytif) is very broad. It includes persuasion, encouragement, exhortation and the calling upon one to take a certain action. In essence, the proposed bill would proscribe all forms of persuasion, be they verbal, written, recorded or broadcast.” The bill is actually quite specifically anti-Christian in that it makes reference to the creation of a new entity “united under the shadow of the cross”. Raphael Pinchasi, a member of the religious Shas Party, recognises that it is “a very wide sweeping law which would include all activities in which preaching or the ability may be found in the slightest degree to influence a person to change his religion.”

        – Anti Missionary Law Will Ban Christian Witness in Israel link to cc-vw.org

        From time to time the government of Israel has deported missionaries or Christian students and refused to grant or renew their visas. The Caspari Media Review and Google are good places to start your research on the subject. link to caspari.com

      • Inanna
        September 6, 2013, 9:49 pm

        @Mahane

        Stop trying to use Christians to whitewash the Israeli regime that has treated my people so unjustly for so long. The problems of Christian communities stem from 2 sources – Israel and Saudi Arabia with America supporting both. You certainly are spouting hasbara and I’ll call you on that bullshit every single time.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 7, 2013, 1:55 am

        @Inanna:

        Thanks God who created Hasbara. It gives all the explanations and you don’t have to bother yourself. It is all Hasbara.

        I can give you my word dugri: If one Christian Palestinian Israeli will support your claim “The problems of Christian communities stem from 2 sources…”, I will quit and stop reading and writing in MW. One, only one!! Meanwhile, stop your Di-aya. Allah Maak!!!

      • Annie Robbins
        September 7, 2013, 2:06 am

        If one Christian Palestinian Israeli will support your claim “The problems of Christian communities stem from 2 sources…” I will quit and stop reading and writing in MW.

        game on. where’s huwaida?

      • Annie Robbins
        September 7, 2013, 2:13 am

        since the “Spring”, many Christian communities were attacked by extremists

        check out Christians denounce Israel’s manhandling of worshipers at Holy Sepulcher on Easter weekend, for ‘extremists’ attacking christians.

        there were thousands of soldiers amassed to prevent palestinian christians from worshiping at their holy site on one of the most important christian ceremonies/holidays of the year. why? can israel’s army be defined as ‘extremist’ too? or just their leaders? extremism takes on a new meaning when applied like this, where apartheid is the norm.

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 4:07 am

        I hope you have also friend inside Israel that can confirm my claims about the Christian in Israel.

        Your claims are BS.

        Christians in Israel and Palestine report that they are being oppressed, abused and persecuted, as well as spat on. They are leaving because of the abuse they are suffering at the hands of Israel.

      • fnlevit
        September 7, 2013, 8:25 am

        Every time I have time to look into your references I find them misleading in the least. As far as I could see Pinhasi legislation never made it past the PRELIMINARY HEARING. So why bring it up? This is precisely how democracies function – Sara Peilins in each democracy could introduce crazy bills.
        One should also recognize special historical sensitivity which any Jew feels when conversions from Jewdaism to Cristianity is involved – perhaps you can find google links stating to the contrary. With your exceptional selectivity skills everything is possible.
        Here is a short quote from a relatively recent document
        Israeli law guarantees freedom of worship and, according to the International Religious Freedom Report 2007, “government policy continued to contribute to the generally free practice of religion,” although non-Jews “were subject to various forms of discrimination” (US 14 Sept. 2007, Intr.). Some Christian denominations are recognized by Israeli law and as such have jurisdiction over civil status matters such as marriage or divorce (Jewish Virtual Library n.d.; US 14 Sept. 2007, Sec. II). The government states that as of 2007 there were no religious groups awaiting formal recognition (ibid.).

        Some media sources indicate that proselytizing is illegal in Israel (AP 24 Sept. 2007; Israel Faxx 6 May 2008). However, according to several other sources, such as Human Rights Without Frontiers (HRWF) and the International Religious Freedom Report 2007, Israeli legislation allows proselytizing as long as it is devoid of coercion in the form of economic incentives (US 14 Sept. 2007, Sec. II; Courrier international 29 Mar. 2007; AP 22 June 2008; HRWF 12 Feb. 2007) or emotional incentives (ibid.). Citing a lawyer from the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, an AP article notes that missionaries have a “‘right according to freedom of religion to maintain their religious lifestyle and disseminate their beliefs, including through literature’” (AP 22 June 2008). An article that appeared in Courrier international, which names the Hebrew-language daily Yedi’ot Aharonot as its source, indicates that proselytizers who use coercion or incentives may face up to five years in prison or a fine (Courrier international 29 Mar. 2007). While conversions involving adults are legal, any person found encouraging or organizing the conversion of a minor faces up to six months’ imprisonment (ibid.).

      • Hostage
        September 8, 2013, 9:33 am

        As far as I could see Pinhasi legislation never made it past the PRELIMINARY HEARING. So why bring it up?

        Because it illustrates that you live in a backward and primitive society with no constitutional guarantees regarding freedom of religion.

        Legislation that persecutes Christians is perfectly okay in Israel. You glossed over the fact that legislation aimed at prohibiting Christian charitable missions was adopted in 1977. It is a disgrace that Jewish authorities let so many of their brethren live below the poverty line and then threaten Christians with fines and prison sentences for the offense of offering the poor something to eat, by labeling human kindness “a practical benefit as an inducement to change religion”.

      • Shingo
        September 8, 2013, 9:36 am

        Here is a short quote from a relatively recent document
        Israeli law guarantees freedom of worship and, according to the International Religious Freedom Report 2007

        Now who is being selective. The same report from 2010 tells a very different story.

        U.S. report highlights Israel’s religious freedoms violations
        link to jta.org

      • Hostage
        September 8, 2013, 9:43 am

        One should also recognize special historical sensitivity which any Jew feels when conversions from Jewdaism to Cristianity is involved – perhaps you can find google links stating to the contrary.

        I’m a secular Jew. I know perfectly well that religious Jews are just as blinded by hatred and bigotry as any of the despots they complain so bitterly about. The difference is that other modern societies have put away their grudges and separated religion from state, while Israelis still nurse their grudges, regulate personal legal status on the basis of religious superstitions, and complain about every imaginary slight.

      • Erasmus
        September 8, 2013, 10:33 am

        RE MahaneYehude1: … I will quit and stop reading and writing in MW…..

        P L E A S E DO !

      • Shmuel
        September 8, 2013, 10:52 am

        If one Christian Palestinian Israeli will support your claim … I will quit and stop reading and writing in MW. One, only one!!

        Fida Jiryis, “The myth of Israel’s favorable treatment of Palestinian Christians”

        You don’t have to quit, just stop writing nonsense about how much the (remaining) natives love their colonial master.

      • German Lefty
        September 8, 2013, 11:02 am

        @ MahaneYehude1
        Here’s the CBS documentary “Christians of the Holy Land”:
        link to cbsnews.com

      • James Canning
        September 8, 2013, 2:24 pm

        Christian leaders in the West Bank say Israeli occupation has been a disaster for their communities.

      • K Renner
        September 9, 2013, 2:52 pm

        “Well, in the last couple of years, since the “Spring”, many Christian communities were attacked by extremists, their churches and holy places were demolished, many of them were killed including priests and many of them left to Western countries. I am talking especially in Egypt and Syria but the worse situation is in Iraq where only 600,000 remain out of 2 million.”

        The only thing you’re right about in this case are the Salafi/Wahhabi attacks on Copts in Egypt, which are not widely supported by the Egyptian public- in fact, after attacks, Muslims and Christians gathered in a show of solidarity against the extremists.

        Iraq was torn apart by the war and the bungled occupation ( a war that was pushed by Israelis, who contributed absolutely nothing to it). When Iraq was at it’s worst in 2007-08, people of all sorts were being killed in the cycle of sectarian attacks perpetuated by AQ affiliates and then revenge attacks– to say that Christians were targeted on the whole by regular Iraqi Muslims is untrue and basically an Israeli propaganda piece.

        The Christian community in Lebanon appears to be doing well for itself– on the whole, they only have a problem with the Salafists like Al-Assir, and certainly don’t think they’d be safer in Israel.

        Actually, Lebanese Christians really don’t like Israel, for obvious reasons. Neither do Palestinian Christians, for that matter.

      • Walid
        September 9, 2013, 3:27 pm

        “Actually, Lebanese Christians really don’t like Israel, for obvious reasons. Neither do Palestinian Christians, for that matter.”

        Actually, there is a small minority among the Christians that tends to lean towards Israel; it’s comprised of elements that collaborated with Israel and were compensated for it during the civil war and the Israeli occupation. But as to the rest of the Christians, the Sunni, the Shia, the Druze and every other group in between feel disgust at the thought of Israel because of the 25,000 Lebanese it has killed over the years and for what it’s doing to the Palestinians now and for having dispossessed the now half a million Palestinian refugees in Lebanon’s camps.

      • miriam6
        September 10, 2013, 12:21 pm

        Hostage said@:

        The difference is that other modern societies have put away their grudges and separated religion from state, while Israelis still nurse their grudges, regulate personal legal status on the basis of religious superstitions

        Those modern nations you speak of, only put aside their grudges and achieved separation of church and state after fighting many bloody wars of religion, it took CENTURIES for them and the bloodiest World War in history BEFORE they achieved democracy and modernity.

        If you wanted to make a fair and relevant comparison you would compare like with like

        Syria, Lebanon and Jordan FORBID civil marriage between couples of mixed religious faith.

        Lebanon is a democratic republic and is perhaps the most westernized and diverse of the Arab countries. However, with 18 religious communities coexisting after a 15-year civil war, it is still a country, like neighboring Israel, Jordan and Syria, that does not offer a choice to people who do not wish to surrender to the authority of religion.

        Lebanon does not offer a legal alternative to people over matters pertaining to personal status such as marriage, divorce, child custody, and inheritance. Lebanon does not have civil marriage. In Lebanon, a marriage has to be conducted by a religious authority from one of the 18 registered sects. The bride and groom’s sectarian identity has to be registered with the Vital Statistics Bureau on the marriage certificate. The registration takes place in the jurisdiction of husband’s birthplace. Those wishing to have a civil marriage must marry outside the country.

        In cases of interfaith relationships, either partner can convert to the faith of the other for the purpose of marriage. The civil marriage of a couple married outside Lebanon is recognized by the Lebanese authorities on the condition that the marriage should be officially registered in the Lebanese Embassy or Consulate in the country where it took place.

        Though recognised by the government, mixed-religion marriages that have been performed outside Lebanon, are largely frowned upon by the society. Apart from mixed-religion couples having to marry abroad, they also face problems with respect to divorce, custody and inheritance laws.

        link to copperwiki.org

      • eljay
        September 10, 2013, 2:16 pm

        Those modern nations you speak of, only put aside their grudges and achieved separation of church and state after fighting many bloody wars of religion …

        If you wanted to make a fair and relevant comparison you would compare like with like

        Syria, Lebanon and Jordan FORBID civil marriage between couples of
        mixed religious faith.

        Well, there you have it: Although Zio-supremacists often and strenuously assert that “Jewish State” is as good as any Western democracy, miriam6eee is stating for the record that “Jewish State” is just like Lebanon, Jordan and – yes, you read it right – Syria.

        Funny stuff… :-)

      • Walid
        September 10, 2013, 2:37 pm

        “Lebanon does not have civil marriage. In Lebanon, a marriage has to be conducted by a religious authority from one of the 18 registered sects. ”

        So they had been thinking for decades and taking the 10-minute flight to Cyprus for a civil marriage, until this year when a crackerjack Lebanese lawyer found a loophole based on a 1936 law from the days of the French Mandate that stipulates that those not affiliated to one of the sects fall into a “sectless group” and can therefore have a civil marriage in Lebanon. A couple proceeded to have the listing of their sect removed from the civil registers under a recent law that permits them to do so and once the registers were amended, they became “sectless” and thus eligible to have a civil marriage under the 1936 law. This of course made a big stink with all the religious authorities.

        link to lebaneseexpatriate.wordpress.com

        link to now.mmedia.me

      • Hostage
        September 10, 2013, 3:14 pm

        Those modern nations you speak of, only put aside their grudges and achieved separation of church and state after fighting many bloody wars of religion, it took CENTURIES for them and the bloodiest World War in history BEFORE they achieved democracy and modernity.

        If you wanted to make a fair and relevant comparison you would compare like with like

        I am comparing Israel with backward anachronistic societies.

      • miriam6
        September 10, 2013, 3:40 pm

        Walid@;

        Thanks for your comment with its interesting links

        I wish Kholoud and Nidal all the best for their marriage.

        BTW on this thread you erroneously asserted that there were 20,000 Jews in Lebanon

        Not so.

        link to mondoweiss.net

        This link from the Lebanese Jewish community says only 200 Jews remain in Lebanon with about 2,000 living between Lebanon and other countries.

        http://thejewsoflebanonproject.org

        However , Lebanon is one of only a few or only Arab countries not to have betrayed its Jewish population
        For example, Lebanon is the only Arab country to have enabled its Jewish citizens to continue to serve in all of Lebanon’s institutions including the civil service even after the creation of Israel
        Also in the past Lebanon was a refuge for thousands of Polish, Greek, Russian Jews escaping anti Semitism and then Nazism in Europe.

      • amigo
        September 6, 2013, 6:20 am

        1 “Traditionally among the Israeli Muslims, after wedding the woman moves and lives with her husband Hamula (if possible). How do you explain the fact that when the husband is from the WB and the wife from Israel, he moves to Israel to live under the apartheid?MY

        Twaddle.

        link to huffingtonpost.com

        “I’m living on my nerves,” said Sahar Kabaha, a 33-year-old Palestinian woman. After her Israeli Arab husband died last year, she was denied permission to remain in the country, even though her four children are Israeli citizens. She now lives without legal papers in the Israeli Arab town of Bartaa. She does not take her children to a doctor, fearing arrest if she’s discovered.

        “All I want is permission to be with my children. They don’t have anybody else to care for them,” Kabaha said.

        Critics argue the restrictions discriminate against Israel’s Arab citizens. Israeli Jews marrying fellow Jews living in West Bank settlements do not face such restrictions. Critics say it also discriminates against Palestinians, since foreign spouses of Israelis are eligible for citizenship.

        2 “Many Syrian refugees enter Israel to receive medical treatment from Israeli supremacist doctors. Why they do it? better die and don’t be treated by supremacists.MY• Amendment to the Citizenship Law: Stipulates that an Israeli citizen who marries a Palestinian cannot live as a couple in Israel with his or her spouse. A Palestinian spouse can neither gain citizenship nor residency.

        Describe “Many”.2,3,10,???.Are they still there??.

        link to mondoweiss.net

        I could waste my time educating you but I sense a dense wall of zio self denial is at work here , so I will leave you with the following link.It ought to answer why we call Israel a ziosupremacist Apartheid occupation Nation.“Facts on Israel’s systemic discrimination against non-Jewish inhabitants.

        Susan abulhawa
        • Section 5 in the Law of Political Parties and section 7A of the Basic Law: Stipulates that any party platform that calls for full and complete equality between Jews and non-Jews, can be disqualified from any political post. The law demands that Palestinian Arab citizens may not challenge the state’s Zionist identity.
        • Law of Return: “Every Jew has the right to become a citizen no matter where they come from” while the indigenous non-Jewish inhabitants who were expelled in 1948 are expressly barred from returning to their homes
        • Nakba Law: Penalizes any institution that commemorates or publicly mourns the expulsion of the native Palestinian population
        • Anti-boycott law: Provides anyone calling for the boycott of Israel, or its illegal settlements, can be sued by the boycott’s targets without having to prove that they sustained damage. The court will then decide how much compensation is to be paid.
        • Admission Committees Law formally allows neighborhood screening committees to prevent non-Jewish citizens from living in Jewish communities that control 81 percent of the territory in Israel. In March 2011 Israel passed a law to allow residents of Jewish towns to refuse non Jews from living in their communities.
        • Amendment to the Citizenship Law: Stipulates that an Israeli citizen who marries a Palestinian cannot live as a couple in Israel with his or her spouse. A Palestinian spouse can neither gain citizenship nor residency.
        • 93% of the land, the vast majority of which was confiscated from Palestinian owners after 1948, can only be owned by Jewish agencies for the benefit of Jews only. One of these agencies is the Jewish National Fund, which, in its charter forbids sale or lease to non-Jews.
        • Specified Goods Tax and Luxury Tax Law [art 26, Laws of the State of Israel, vol. 6, p. 150 (1952)] Authorizes lower import taxes for Jewish citizens of Israel compared with non-Jewish citizens of Israel.
        • National Planning and Building Law (1965) Through various zoning laws freezes the growth of existing Arab villages while providing for the expansion Jewish settlements and creation of new ones. The law also re-classifies a large portion of established Arab villages as “unrecognized” and therefore nonexistent, allowing the state to cut off water and electricity as well as to simply appropriate that property.
        • Appropriations are carried out under The Requisitions Law which allows a “competent authority” to requisition the land – called “land requisition order” – so that only he may “use and exploit the land” as he sees fit. This applies to “home requisition orders” as well, whereby another “competent authority” who can “order the occupier of a house to surrender the house to the control of a person specified in the order, for residential purposes or for any other use, as may be prescribed in the order. “
        • In the education sector within Israel, as an example, the state spends $192 per year per non-Jewish student compared to $1,100 per Jewish student.
        • There is a planned Mosque Law that will prohibit the broadcasting of the Muslim call to prayer, which has been sounding over that land since the beginning of Islam.
        • Non-Jews living in the West Bank are denied access to the holy places of Jerusalem, which are only a few kilometers away from them.
        • ALSO, for the first time in the history of Islam and the history of Christianity, Palestinian Muslims and Christians in the West Bank and Gaza are denied access to their holy Places of Jerusalem, even on the high holy days of Eid, Christmas, and Easter Sunday.
        • Since Israel took the West Bank, the Christian population has declined from 20,000 in 1967 to less than 7500 today.
        • Military Order 1229: authorizes Israel to hold Palestinians in administrative detention for up to six months without charge or trial. Six-month detentions can be renewed indefinitely, without charge or trial.
        • Military Order 329 and 1650 effectively prevents Palestinians from being anywhere in the West Bank without a specific permit to be there, making it a criminal offense to go from one Palestinian town to another.
        • Military Oder #92 and #158: gives the Israeli military control of all water resources in the West Bank, which belongs to Palestinians.
        • Israel then allows the Palestinians access to only a fraction of the shared water resources, while unlawful Israeli settlements there receive virtually unlimited supplies creating a reality of green lawns and swimming pools for Jewish settlers and a parched life for Palestinians, whose access to water, according to the World Health Organization does not meet the minimum requirements for basic human water needs.
        • Furthermore, that fraction of confiscated Palestinian water is sold to Palestinians at 300% more than what it costs Jewish settlers in the same area. ($1.20/cubic meter vs $.40/cubic meter).
        • Military Orders #811 and #847: Allows Jews to purchase land from unwilling Palestinian sellers by using “power of attorney”.
        • Military Order #25: forbids public inspection of land transactions.
        • Militar Order #998: requires Palestinians to get Israeli military permission to make a withdrawal from their bank account.
        • Military Order #128: gives the Israeli military the right to take over any Palestinian business which is not open during regular business hours.
        • Military Order #138 & #134: forbids Palestinians from operating tractors or other heavy farm machinery on their land.
        • Military Order #93: gives all Palestinian insurance businesses to the Israeli Insurance Syndicate.
        • Military Order # 1015: requires Palestinians to get Israeli military permission to plant and grow fruit trees. This permit expires every year.
        • Through various military orders, according to the WHO, Israel has uprooted 2.5 million trees belonging to Palestinians, and which often represent their only means of sustenance.

        • (UNICEF): “Conditions have rarely been worse for Palestinian children.” One in 10 Palestinian children now suffer from stunted growth due to compromised health, poor diet and nutrition and 50% of Palestinian children are anemic, and 75% of those under 5 suffer from vitamin A deficiency.
        • Palestinian children are routinely imprisoned for months and years for throwing stones at Israeli jeeps, tanks, and soldiers. Many of them, as young as 12 years old, are tortured and held in solitary confinement.
        • Meanwhile, for bludgeoning a 10 year old Palestinian boy (Hilmi Shusha) to death with the butt of his rifle, an Israeli settler received community service and a fine.
        • A Palestinian man was convicted of rape and sentenced to 1.5 years in prison for having consensual sex with a Jewish woman, because he did not disabuse her of her assumption that he was Jewish.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 7, 2013, 1:49 am

        @Amigo:
        Look, I know about all the Israeli laws and restrictions of immigrants to Israel. As far as I know, most countries have such laws. USA, Australia, GB all has laws to restrict immigrants. This is not to say that we have to stop each single one, but to check before let him enter. In my first original comment, I didn’t speak about the Israeli laws. I said, and I repeat again and again: Israeli citizenship is very valuable and many Palestinians in WB do a lot of efforts to reach it like in the case of wedding to Israeli, although the restrictions. The reason for that, IMO, is not for “benefits” as people wrote me. No, there is only one reason called freedom. They know in which side of the line the freedom is.

        There is no discrimination of Palestinian Israelis inside Israel. I repeat: NO discrimination. You can find them in all fields of life in Israel: Medicine, IDF soldiers and officers, Police officer, finance systems, businesses, education, transportation etc. They are integral part of our society. Indeed, there are a lot to improve. But also the Jewish community can say the same. Israel is steel young state facing terrible events and has to deal with so many problems that most of Americans and Europeans can’t imagine. We still building our society, our nation and our democracy. Believe me, the situation always improve.

        About Syrian refugees: I lost you. Didn’t understand what you wrote. How many Palestinians in the IDF? No, not 2, 3, 10. Talknic saved my time and wrote: 3000 but the number is increasing exponentially.

        You wrote a list of laws of restrictions of the Palestinians. Well, I think and sure that even the most anti-Israeli among us admit that Israel has a developed law system aimed to protect any one. If the law is not legal, every body has the write to appeal to the High Court of Justice (I hope my translation is good – I mean Bagatz). You probably heard about Adalah and their activities. If you searched for the laws, I sure you can also find many cases show how citizens were protected by Bagats from un justice of Israeli authorities.

        To the end: there is one example in your comment made me nervous: “A Palestinian man was convicted of rape and sentenced to 1.5 years in prison for having consensual sex with a Jewish woman, because he did not disabuse her of her assumption that he was Jewish”. Well, you wrote this story in a very delicate way which convenient to you. This man has luck for sentenced to 1.5 years. If I was the judge, I would send him to 15 years!! No, not because he his Palestinian and the woman Jew. I would do it if it was reversed. This called deception. Think about the woman that prepared her self to marry him and build her future with him. Please, ask any Muslim here what he would do if his sister had same fraud – Jew that pretends himself Muslim and offers marriage. I think I know the answer. Sure most of them understand me.

        I am waiting to hear your solution as I did in my other comments. Salam.

      • Shmuel
        September 7, 2013, 12:04 pm

        MY1,

        Hi. How goes the basta? I sympathise with your discomfort over the word “hasbara”. Being called out on propaganda is never fun, but that is what your comments (at least the ones I’ve read; I’ve been away for a while) amount to. I can think of no better word to describe the stew of lies, half-truths and distractions that you have served up here.

        1. Israeli immigration policy is not comparable to that of western democracies — as discriminatory and racist as some of those may be. The particular example discussed here (family reunification for Jewish citizens of Israel, no family reunification for Palestinian citizens of Israel) is a case in point.

        2. There most definitely is structural and systematic discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel (beginning with Israel’s “Nationality Law” and “Absentees’ Property Law” that completed the first stage of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine). Of course it’s not as bad as the outright apartheid practised in the territories, but “nobody’s perfect” just doesn’t cut it. If you have any interest in better understanding the Israeli regime and its semblance of democracy within some of the territory it controls on a by-now permanent basis, while privileging a “charter” ethnic group, I recommend the work of Oren Yiftachel and Sami Smooha.

        3. That the situation elsewhere is worse, is a distraction typical of propaganda designed to maintain a status quo favourable to one’s own group. As Amira Hass recently wrote:

        Ranking injustices, atrocities and discrimination on a scale of horrors is just one more technique employed by those in power to retain their power, to justify their excessive privileges and to belittle any public or civil struggle for equality.

        Your attempt to deflect justified criticism of Israel by pointing to Palestinians who would rather live there than in the WB, Gaza or Syria, is a classic version of this strategy (also used in Apartheid South Africa and the US South under Jim Crow: ‘Our blacks have a much higher standard of living than anywhere in Africa.’)

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 12:37 pm

        As far as I know, most countries have such laws. USA, Australia, GB all has laws to restrict immigrants

        People trying to return to their homes are not immigrants. They were there before Israel was created.

        No, there is only one reason called freedom. They know in which side of the line the freedom is.

        Of course, the bit you left out is that it is Israel, through it’s occupation, that is denying them freedom on one part of the territory, so it makes perfect sense for the to try and reach the territory which is not under occupation.

        There is no discrimination of Palestinian Israelis inside Israel

        Of course there is. They live under apartheid as third class citizens. Even non Ashkenazi Jews are discriminated against.

        Israel is a fascist apartheid state after all. The fact that you might find Arabs in sone professions does not change that fact.

        Many talk about how there are Arab judges, but those judges are employed to enforce apartheid laws.

        Israel is steel young state facing terrible events and has to deal with so many problems that most of Americans and Europeans can’t imagine.

        Those problems are of it’s own doing and choice. Israel choses to be an apartheid and colonial power stealing land and ritually oppressing others, so that comes with a cost.

        Again, there is no point for a rapist to complain that the neighborhood doesn’t live him while he continues to rape and assault the locals.

        If the law is not legal, every body has the write to appeal to the High Court of Justice

        You are making no sense. If a law is passed, it is legal witching the state. It has often been argued that nothing Hitler did was illegal under German law in the 1930s either.

        If I was the judge, I would send him to 15 years!! No, not because he his Palestinian and the woman Jew. I would do it if it was reversed. This called deception

        So you are a racist extremist after all. You see, no one in any other western democracy could ever be charge with such a crime because there is no laws exist that require a consenting adult to reveal his indentured to another.

        Only in Israel can a woman report a man she gas had consensual sex with for not telling her he is Jewish. That just goes to prove that Israel is an apartheid state and that you are an apartheid advocate.

        Think about the woman that prepared her self to marry him and build her future with him.

        First of all, there is no evidence she has any such ideas. I fact, it turns out she was the one who initiated the one night stand, and seeing as she had not met him before that encounter, it is highly unlikely she had any thoughts about marriage. He didn’t lie about his identity, he simply didn’t volunteer it and not should he have.

        She was simply a racist bigot who was insulted at the thought if having had intercourse with a sub human.

        I am sure Jewish men in Nazi Germany would have been charge with similar crimes under their obscenely racist, but legal, laws.

        You probably consider yourself a liberal, but you are a text book example of how sick and did functional Israeli society has become.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 7, 2013, 3:00 pm

        @Shmuel: The Basta goes well, thank you. We had four days off since Rosh Hashana but Monday I return to work. We expect many clients for Yom Kippur.

        Well, Shmulik, as you stated, you read only part of my comments. As usual, I am not running from any issue, but I want you to read only one of my comments before we speak. In this comment I offered solution, thing that many people here don’t do:
        link to mondoweiss.net

        I participate in MW only two weeks and already received tens of replies. You are the first one says I wrote lies. Well, Sir, I am not here to write lies nor to twist people. I am here to tell my truth as I see it as an Israeli and proud Zionist. We can argue on the explanations of the facts, but all the facts I wrote are truth and only truth. For instance: I don’t deny the Naqba, but my point of view about the origin of it or the consequence of it can be different from your. You don’t have to accept my explanations but, please, don’t say I tell lies.

        You recommended me to read Yiftachel and Sammoha, I recommend you to read Y. Gelber in order to understand better the origin and consequences of our long conflict.

        Your citation about the Blacks under Crow tells nothing. If you read my comments you will realize that I never claim that the Palestinians want Israeli citizenship in order to improve their standard of living. The Palestinians are not herd of Elephants searching for food. Those who want Israeli citizenship do it mainly because one reason: Israel means freedom!!! The Zionist movement created here one of the best states on earth – I know it and they know it, you can know it too if you only leave behind your prejudices.

        Wish you Gmar Hatima Tova.
        See you in Jerusalem.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 7, 2013, 3:26 pm

        @Shingo: It seems that I am too polite in my replies to readers, but others not behave the same and lash me as much as they can. I wonder what the purpose of all these personal attacks is.

        I will not write you my opinion on the state of Israel. If you think Israel is an apartheid state – Sein Gesunt!!!

        About the sentenced man: Well, any Arab can tell you that in Israel there are no laws against inter-racial marriage. It is a common sight in the streets of Tel-Aviv to see couples of Muslims with Jews (of course, only Muslim men, but let’s not start with it again). Many of them are married couples, living in dignity and raise their families – no one has problem with it (and if one has – he only can drink from Bahar of Gaza!). You are doing what most of Israel haters do: take one story, cut many parts of it, shorten it and tell it in the way it is convenient to you. I know all the details of this story: It was a long cruel and brutal deception against innocent woman!!! Do you know what this Muslim would do if a Jew pretends himself Muslim and makes the same deception to his sister? Ask your Muslim friends. The fact that no one of them replied to me on this issue says all.

      • Shmuel
        September 7, 2013, 4:27 pm

        Glad things are going well at the shuk. I hope the Yom Kippur trade is good. Thanks for the link. As enlightened as it may make you feel, it only reinforces my assessment of your other comments, but it’s good to a have look at the entire “opus”.

        You are the first one says I wrote lies.

        Knowing the crowd here, I find that hard to believe, but I’ll take your word for it.

        Lie 1: The Israeli ban against family reunification for Palestinians only (and, by implication, Israeli immigration policy in general) is no different from limitations on immigration imposed by “[the] USA, Australia, GB”.

        Lie 2: “There is no discrimination of Palestinian Israelis inside Israel. I repeat: NO discrimination.”

        Not only is this claim demonstrably false, but so is the less-than-anecdotal, take-my-word-for-it argument you use to back it up – followed by ‘nobody’s perfect’ and ‘Israel should be cut some slack anyway’ caveats (So which is it? Is there really NO discrimination, or is the discrimination that does exist understandable under the circumstances).

        I admit that I have not read Gelber, but I am thoroughly acquainted with the entire range of “Israeli and proud Zionist” views, having been raised in them and having subscribed to a variety of them myself (from national-religious to secular-liberal) for most of my life. You, however, do not seem to be familiar with concepts such as “ethnocracy” or “ethnic democracy”, or you would not be calling a semblance of democracy “freedom”, or citing it as proof of the lack of discrimination. If you’d like links for Yiftachel and Smooha (or Sasha Kedar or others who have written on this subject) just say the word.

        The examples taken from Apartheid SA and the Jim Crow South are entirely apt because, like you, they employed the ‘blacks would rather be here than anywhere else’ argument as justification for their unequal treatment. Not because they were “elephants searching for food”, but because ‘they love it here’. It was a cynical, condescending and irrelevant argument then, and it is a cynical, condescending and irrelevant argument now. But how could I possibly be talking about a country where there is “NO discrimination” (although nobody’s perfect and Israel has been at war for its entire existence)? Proof? They love it here and are flocking here in droves, bless their souls, clamouring to defend the country they love from its mortal enemies the Arabs! (BTW, weren’t there “colonial” units in various European armies – British, French, Italian, etc? Guess they loved their colonial masters to bits too – until they didn’t.)

        you can know it too if you only leave behind your prejudices

        I have done my best to leave the prejudices and preconceptions with which I was raised behind. How about you? You can start with this one:

        The Zionist movement created here one of the best states on earth

        Gemar hatimah tovah to you too, and remember that divine judgements can be reversed through repentance, prayer and charity!

      • bintbiba
        September 7, 2013, 6:26 pm

        Yaaay ! this old woman is cheering and pumping fist in air ! Not very becoming or dignified.
        Good to have your presence back with us Shmuel. You have been missed… I’m sure many agree with me.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 8, 2013, 12:53 am

        @Shmuel:
        Thanks for your reply. Although I don’t agree with you, I appreciate your efforts and polite.

        I repeat again: Not even one of my facts was a lie. It is only a different point of view. If I participate and write in sites like MW, be sure that I very familiar with terms such “ethnocracy”, “ethnic democracy”, “supremacy”, “discrimination”, “apartheid” etc. None of them describes Israel. Let me, please, tell one short personal story: I live in Jerusalem in Jewish-Muslim neighborhood. Next to my street is a grocery run by Palestinian family that I know well. Around year 2000, when Israel experienced terror attacks and every day people were blown in buses and streets, my little daughter, than about 5-6 years old, refused to cross the street. “Daddy, they will kill me”. It took long time until she learned there is no danger. Now, what can one says on my daughter? Racist? Supremacist? Discriminate? No, the answer is simple; she was frightened. FEAR describes most of the things. It is the fear that people that don’t want us here rooted in our hearts. It is the fear that paralyzes us. Most of the laws, activities and events that you see as discrimination and apartheid are a consequences of our fear. How do you expect some one to feel when he hears threats like “Khaybar, Khayber, Ya Yahud, Jaish Muhammad Sauf Yaud” (Khaybar, Khaybar, Oh Jews, Muhammad’s army will return”)? Or “The day of your end is close”? How can we do peace when we hear from several Palestinian groups that the future state is only the first step of liberation of all Palestine?

        Israel built a wall between us and the WB. People use to call it “the Apartheid wall”. But those people ignore one fact – that this wall saves many lives and the rate of terror attacks decreased dramatically. We built it not because we believe in apartheid, only because our fear!

        I know also the argument: you are not serious about Palestinian independent state. You want to control the air, borders and full control on Jordan valley. Although I oppose this solution, I can understand why it is on the table: FEAR. Although want peace and Palestinian state, most Israelis fear that this state will be a base for terror attacks against us.

        Look, I am not an educated man like you, but I know exactly the meaning of Apartheid. Most (Most, OK?) of the Jewish Israelis don’t believe that we, the Jews, are a superior group over the Arabs. We live with them, treat them (I don’t like this word) as equal and even die with them together (For instance, in the army). We don’t discriminate them for being Arabs. All the restrictions, checkpoints, laws and licenses are a consequence of our fear. All the weapon, missiles, satellites that Israel develop is because our fear. Please, don’t compare us to SA or South USA where racist laws were written because people believed “White better than black”. It is not truth about us. It is oversimplified of a complicated situation that we, the Israelis, experience; I think the only nation in the world.

        And last thing: I don’t angry about you all in Western countries. The problem is that most of you judge us in “Western eyes” (I don’t speak on anti-Semite people or Israeli-haters, I mean those who criticize Israel without proportion). Many of you expect Israel to behave like Sweden, for instance. But no, Sweden is not surrounded by enemy states, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, by Hamas in the south and Hezbollah in the North and now we have new friends: Salafists, Jabhat Al-Nusra, Takfiri and you name it. When our neighbors behave like Finland and Denmark, believe me, we will be Sweden.

        Shmuel, I have so many painful issues to discuss as disproportional treatment and criticize of Israel and about our rights to live here, let’s leave them for next time.

        Besefer Haim Tikatevu. Tx.

      • Shmuel
        September 8, 2013, 1:24 am

        Thanks, bintbiba :-)

      • Shmuel
        September 8, 2013, 2:43 am

        MY1,

        I have given you 2 examples of things that you have said that are not merely a matter of interpretation, but objectively false, “good” only for their propaganda value. The countries you mentioned (USA, GB and Australia) do not allow family reunification for members of one ethnicity/religion but not another. That is not a trivial matter, but an essential element of inequality which, in itself, proves that your second assertion (no discrimination against Palestinians in Israel) is also false. But no matter, because you have as much as admitted that there is indeed discrimination against Palestinians, although you consider it understandable because ‘nobody’s perfect’, Israel is at war (and not in Scandinavia), and it is the product of fear rather than inherent supremacism.

        Just to clarify, discrimination is the end result, regardless of the motivation. You may believe such discrimination is justified or at least understandable (interpretation), but that does not mean it does not exist (reality).

        I understand the fear. I too lived in Jerusalem in 2000, heard the blasts and the ambulances (I lived on the way to 2 important hospitals). I have also come to understand however, that fear can easily be cultivated and manipulated, and that it is often self-perpetuating.

        Yiftachel also understands the fear – both the one that is the product of Israel’s own actions and the one that played an important role in bringing those actions about. That is why he does not describe Israel merely as an ethnocracy, but as an “ethnocracy of refugees”. You say you are familiar with the term “ethnocracy”, but do you understand it, or do you see it merely as another attempt at “delegitimisation”? Here, in brief, is Yiftachel’s explanation of the concept and its application to Israel:

        Careful analysis of the Israeli polity shows that ethnos and not demos is the main organizing political principle. Israel should therefore be characterized as an “ethnocracy.” I define ethnocracy as a regime type with several key characteristics:
        - Despite several democratic features, ethnicity, not territorial citizenship, is the main logic behind resource allocation.
        - State borders and political boundaries are fuzzy: there is no identifiable “demos,” mainly due to the role of ethnic diasporas inside the polity and the inferior position of ethnic minorities.
        - A dominant “charter” ethnic group appropriates the state apparatus and determines most public policies.
        - Significant (though partial) civil and political rights are extended to minority members, distinguishing ethnocracies from Herrenvolk or authoritarian regimes.
        Oren Yiftachel, “Democracy or Ethnocracy: Territory and Settler Politics in Israel/Palestine”

        Your depiction of Jewish Israelis as being entirely free of feelings of superiority over Arabs and treating them as equals is not only a great distortion of reality (I grew up there and lived there well into adulthood, and my entire family is still there), but a human impossibility in the climate of nationalism, entitlement and yes, fear, that is the daily bread of Jewish Israeli society.

        Your final paragraph about not having “Finland and Denmark” for neighbours is pure propaganda. Have you ever really thought about that tired old cliché? Would you accept it as justification for discrimination against your own group?

        Speaking of inscription in the “Book of Life”, it is interesting that the “Communal Confession for the Sin of Torture”, published by Rabbis for Human Rights a few years ago, includes the line “For the sin which we have committed before you through excessive fear.”

      • Hostage
        September 8, 2013, 2:50 am

        you have as much as admitted that there is indeed discrimination against Palestinians, although you consider it understandable because ‘nobody’s perfect’, Israel is at war (and not in Scandinavia), and it is the product of fear rather than inherent supremacism. Just to clarify, discrimination is the end result, regardless of the motivation. You may believe such discrimination is justified or at least understandable (interpretation), but that does not mean it does not exist (reality).

        To clarify even further:

        Article III

        International criminal responsibility shall apply, irrespective of the motive involved, to individuals, members of organizations and institutions and representatives of the State, whether residing in the territory of the State in which the acts are perpetrated or in some other State, whenever they:

        (a) Commit, participate in, directly incite or conspire in the commission of the acts mentioned in article II of the present Convention;

        (b) Directly abet, encourage or co-operate in the commission of the crime of apartheid.

        – International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid link to www1.umn.edu

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 8, 2013, 3:12 am

        @Shmuel: It seems to me that we explain the term discrimination in different ways and that is the reason why you think my claim was a lie. When I say “most” I mean “most”. Indeed, there are racist groups among us as I wrote in other comments, there are people that think we are superior, there are people that want all Eretz Israel. I never deny it and I personally, as a Meretz man, fight against those people. Maybe those people gave you the impression that the entire Israeli society is a racist and apartheid one. No, Sir, the majority are not. The Israeli society is an open society and very tolerant one. There are not apartheid laws, even not one although you try to convince me that some laws are racial using many old cliche (see MW). The fact that you recommend me books criticize Israel written by Israelis says a lot about the Israeli society and the range of the opinions among us. Unfortunately, I find little, if any, books criticize the Palestinian and Arab society written by Arabs (And, please, don’t say it is all pink there).

        I wrote my opinion about discrimination and apartheid and don’t think I have to add on this issue beside more and more examples. If you think it is propaganda or ignorance – I can’t do anything. But, I will continue to do my personal fight for peace and reconciliation between the Arabs and the Jewish state of Israel although many people oppose it. They will fail – peace is the future.

        For Yom Kippur, let me recommend you a different view on Israeli Arab conflict written by Muslim journalist in SA name Abdulateef Al-Mulhim. It is one year old but, unfortunately, I can’t find others. This one is rare one:
        link to arabnews.com

        Again, Hatima Tova and see you again. We have more to discuss.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 8, 2013, 4:29 am

        @Hostage: Thanks for the addition. Again, maybe we all interprate discrimination and apartheid in different ways. As I understand it, discrimination and apartheid laws and activities are based on the (evil) view that one race is superior on the other. This is absolutely not the case in Israel and in MOST Israeli Jewish society. When you discriminate ALL Arabs because they are Arabs – it is apartheid. When you take measures and arrest several suspected Arabs in order to prevent the next terror attack – it is not apartheid nor discrimination. I am not saying that all Israel activities toward the Arab society is fair and I am not here to justify all the measures – but I believe and know that my state does lot of efforts to reduce the suffering of innocent people. As far as I know, Israel is the only country in the ME judges its soldiers and allow unlimited criticism. One thing I can tell for sure – the situation, although far from be good, is always improved.

        Shmuel said that several of my claim are propaganda. I do think that most of the people shape their views on Israel only because they are exposed to propaganda. Few days ago, one reader here sent a link shows a Palestinian in Jerusalem demolishes its own house after he was ordered to do it. Later, the party began: discrimination!! apartheid!! occupation!! Most of the people, if not all, ignore the fact that several Jews also ordered to demolish their illegal house or pay the fine. That’s the different between us. I try to see the whole picture.

      • Shmuel
        September 8, 2013, 4:49 am

        MY1,

        Arguing semantics is another tried-and-true propaganda technique. You want to engage in a circular argument about the level of racism in Jewish Israeli society? Fine. I would rather talk about systemic and institutional discrimination and violations of human rights in the OT and in Israel proper. Whether the very real systemic discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel can be termed “apartheid” or not is debatable, but there is little doubt where Israeli policy in the OT is concerned. This is the fundamental basis of criticism of Israel here, not how Jewish Israelis ‘feel’ about Palestinians.

        And another tired cliché: The existence of a tiny minority of dissenting voices (as vilified and threatened as they may be) is proof of the state of democracy and equality. Freedom of speech is one of those “democratic features” that Yiftachel talks about, which in fact perpetuate inequality inasmuch as they serve as a “cover” for discrimination (the real kind). Again Yiftachel:

        Despite this reality, the dominant view regarding the democratic nature of Israel continues to rule supreme, augmented by the durable operation of many important democratic features (distinct from structures), especially competitive politics and a free press. The Israeli democratic image has also been promoted by academia, the media, political rhetoric and congratulatory self-appraisals. It has had an enormously positive impact on the state’s international status, enabling Israel to maintain a regime which structurally discriminates against non-Jews, but avoids the kind of international pressures and costs suffered by structurally discriminatory regimes such as Turkey, Serbia or Slovakia.

        And another cliché: There is little “if any” criticism of Arabs by Arabs. (Aside: Is there no sense of “supremacy” in such an argument?)

        Thanks for the link, but the same old propaganda is no more convincing coming from a Saudi than it is coming from an Israeli.

      • Shmuel
        September 8, 2013, 5:01 am

        As I understand it, discrimination and apartheid laws and activities are based on the (evil) view that one race is superior on the other.

        According to the Rome Statute:

        The “crime of apartheid” means inhumane acts … committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;

        The justifications (or rationalisations) offered for the existence of such an “institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination” are not relevant to the definition itself.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 8, 2013, 5:21 am

        @Shmuel: I read your comment carefully – it doesn’t convinced me. Citing Yiftachel again and again doesn’t mean all he wrote is correct. You seems to me a very educated man and I recommend you to read more other sources, not only sources that support your view. From my side, In the past I read I. Peppe and S. Sand and promise to read the books you recommended me. Meanwhile, we have to agree that we don’t agree.

        I sent you a link written by a Muslim from SA and your disappointed response is that it is the same old propaganda. Is any article with little understanding of Israel is a propaganda? Why should SA Muslim write propaganda for Israel? Why SA journalist article is a propaganda and Yiftachel is not? remember that any road has two directions. all these declarations by you are not more than a wall you are building around you, wall that prevents you to see the whole picture, make reasonable judgment and fair critic on the conflict and on Israel. And fair critic doesn’t mean demonization.

        I do thank you again.

      • just
        September 8, 2013, 5:54 am

        “Look, I am not an educated man like you, but I know exactly the meaning of Apartheid.”

        You are plenty educated. I appreciate your proclamation of humility. To most of the rest of the world it is obvious that Apartheid is what is being practiced by Israel. Perhaps it is not obvious to you or in your neighborhood, but look closely and you will see. I don’t like the racism here in my country, and don’t practice it myself. But as long as it is alive and condoned, it IS my problem and I must do everything I can to defeat it. Similarly, I must object to our “special relationship” with an Apartheid state that is not working toward peace with the population that it Occupies, terrorizes, steals from, and tries with every fibre of their collective being, to humiliate in very many ways.

        wiki–
        “In 1973 the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (ICSPCA) was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly.[36] The ICSPCA defines the crime of apartheid as “inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group … over another racial group … and systematically oppressing them.”[37] In 2002 the crime of apartheid was further defined by Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as encompassing inhumane acts such as torture, murder, forcible transfer, imprisonment, or persecution of an identifiable group on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, or other grounds, “committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime.”[38]

        In a 2007 report, United Nations Special Rapporteur for Palestine John Dugard stated that “elements of the Israeli occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law” and suggested that the “legal consequences of a prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid” be put to the International Court of Justice.[39] In 2009 South Africa’s statutory research agency the Human Sciences Research Council (HSRC) published a report stating that “the State of Israel exercises control in the [Occupied Palestinian Territories] with the purpose of maintaining a system of domination by Jews over Palestinians and that this system constitutes a breach of the prohibition of apartheid.”[40] The report was written by a team of international law experts and scholars and does not represent an official position of the HSRC.[41] In 2010 United Nations Special Rapporteur for Palestine Richard A. Falk reported that criminal apartheid features of the Israeli occupation had been entrenched in the three years since the report of his predecessor, John Dugard.[42] In March 2011, Falk said, “The continued pattern of settlement expansion in East Jerusalem combined with the forcible eviction of long-residing Palestinians is creating an intolerable situation … [and] can only be described in its cumulative impact as a form of ethnic cleansing.”[43]“is

        (PS– I know that the Israeli government pooh- poohs international law and the UN in general.)

        Both the US and Israel have many terrible imperfections that have proved to have disastrous/deadly implications for those that are targeted. One of the worst that we share is the willingness to use war and to cultivate enemies rather than to honestly seek peace with our fellow humans. A total failure of imagination and effort by both countries who call themselves ‘democracies’ and who are, in fact, belligerents.

      • Shmuel
        September 8, 2013, 6:22 am

        MY1,

        I have cited Yiftachel a number of times because his analysis is the most pertinent to the issue of ethnocracy vs. democracy, democratic features within a discriminatory system, etc. I could just as easily cite Smooha or Peled or Kedar or others, but you would avoid their arguments as well, merely repeating the mantra that Israel is a model society, backed up by your subjective impression of Jewish Israeli attitudes and a few superficial talking points (Palestinians love it, freedom of speech, not in Scandinavia, etc.).

        I am not merely giving you a “reading list”, but asking you to engage with the arguments — without resorting to distractions, distortions or arguments over semantics. Is the basis of the Israeli polity the “demos” (Israeli citizens) or the “ethnos” (the Jewish people)? Does Israel have a “charter ethnic group”? Is there really no institutionalised discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel?

        Is any article with little understanding of Israel is a propaganda?

        No, only ones that justify Israeli policy toward Palestinians by saying things like (paraphrasing) “they’re better off than they are in other countries” or “a Palestinian judge was on the court that sentenced Katsav” or “Israel is a world leader in technology”.

        The article you linked to is propaganda because its arguments are (at best) irrelevant, meant to create a certain impression. You may not agree with Yiftachel, but (unlike your Saudi propagandist) he employs academic sources and methodology, rather than talking points. If there are parts of Yiftachel’s work or reasoning that you feel are less than rigorous, please point them out.

        I’ve given you my views on the difference between propaganda and analysis (and explained that terms like “ethnocracy” and “apartheid” are not insults but descriptions with clear definitions). I’d appreciate it if you could explain the difference between “fair criticism” and “demonization” in anything I have written or cited. Thanks.

      • German Lefty
        September 8, 2013, 6:31 am

        @ MahaneYehude1

        Indeed, there are racist groups among us, there are people that think we are superior, there are people that want all Eretz Israel. I personally, as a Meretz man, fight against those people.
        I see. Apparently, you believe that stealing 78% of Palestine is totally fine and that only those who intend to steal 100% of Palestine are criminals…

        I will continue to do my personal fight for peace and reconciliation between the Arabs and the Jewish state of Israel although many people oppose it.
        The mere fact that you want Israel to be a Jewish state – as opposed to an Israeli state – proves that you are a racist. People who want Israel to be a Jewish state (i.e. Zionists) view Palestinian Israelis as a demographic threat and oppose the Palestinian refugees’ right to return. This means you deny Palestinians equal rights. And that makes you a racist. Could a Palestinian citizen of Israel be the President or Prime Minister of the “Jewish state of Israel”? No! A non-Jew could never represent the “Jewish state”. So, where’s the equality within Israel?

        The fact that you recommend me books criticize Israel written by Israelis says a lot about the Israeli society and the range of the opinions among us.
        Nope. If Israel hadn’t violated human rights and international law, then these books wouldn’t have been necessary in the first place.

      • German Lefty
        September 8, 2013, 6:41 am

        @ MahaneYehude1

        Some key findings of the 2012 Israeli Democracy Index:
        A majority of the Jewish sample (52.6%) agree that speakers should be prohibited from harsh public criticism of the state, while a majority of the Arab sample (68.6%) disagree with this statement.
        In categorizing the areas of friction in Israeli society, the tension between Jews and Arabs ranks as the most severe.
        The sense of feeling part of the state and its problems differs greatly between Jewish and Arab respondents (72.9% and 27.7%, respectively).
        A majority of the Jewish respondents (58.3%) feel that Israel’s Arab citizens are not discriminated against, while a majority of the Arab respondents (74.9%) hold that they are subject to discrimination.
        link to en.idi.org.il

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 8, 2013, 7:22 am

        @Just: I think I wrote too much today on this thread and I don’t want to monopolize it. I thought I would write one comment and all reply “You right, MY1, from now we love Israel” ( :-) ) . So, the last comment for today:

        You all puzzled me, switching between the OT and Israel itself (please, note I use the term OT). So, let me summarize my views:

        1) OT – occupation it is not a normal situation. Israel had to occupy the territories after the war with Arab countries and remains in the area in order to use them in future negotiation for peace. Unfortunately, several right governments allow building settlements. I personally don’t like it and declared many times that these settlement houses have to be given to the Palestinian refugees, as part of reconciliation.
        2) Since Israel remains in the territories it has the responsibility on the ground. As the controller, many laws for the OT were written. Not even one of them is a racist law or aimed to discriminate between people. One law for all!! The list of 30 laws Amigo wrote above doesn’t contain even one racist law. It is how you explain them. Let’s take one law from the list seems most ridiculous to you: License to plant fruit trees. This law is applied to all and aimed to prevent land stilling. I will say something that you won’t love: It aimed to protect Palestinian landlords too.
        3) Israel never annexed the WB and Gaza. The conflict between us and the Palestinians is a unique one and has to be negotiated for a peace. Both sides have to do painful compromises. Most of the Israelis ready for it.
        4) Israel – I repeat again: It is all the way I you explain things: There is no laws discriminate between Arab and Jews, governmental and municipals. Not even one!!! I wrote several examples in other comments and I think I wrote it clear enough.

        Just, look, although I am a man of peace, want independent sovereign state, I aware the fact that Israel experiences now propaganda campaign against it aimed to demonize us, declare our state apartheid and hence illegal state. This “new war” that the Arabs declared against us, after other techniques failed, is exposing many people in the Western countries to large amount of propaganda and biased information that cause many of them to lose discretion. Israel is been in the center of un proportional covering and attacks by many that ignore many other huge problems on our planet. Indeed, Israel activities are not all right and I too have a lot against my government. But we, most Israelis, feel that many people can’t distinguish between fair criticism and demonization. Thank you

        That’s it for today – even Israeli has to eat and rest little.

        link to dadalos.org

      • Shingo
        September 8, 2013, 8:07 am

        I read your comment carefully – it doesn’t convinced me.

        That’s grossly dishonest. You are unable to refute the arguments, therefore you simply refuse to be convinced.

        Why should SA Muslim write propaganda for Israel?

        Why is a matter of conjecture, but anyone can find a token Muslim to do their bidding if they want. The simple fact is that the arguments presented in your link simply don’t stand up to scrutiny.

      • Shingo
        September 8, 2013, 8:34 am

        It is the fear that people that don’t want us here rooted in our hearts. It is the fear that paralyzes us.

        But you refuse to admit that the fear is a consequence of the apartheid supremacist policies of Israel. Drug lords live in fear of their enemies too, always aware their lives are threatened, because they chose to live a life of crime, murder, and lawlessness.

        You wouldn’t live in fear of your country did not continue occupying someone else’s land an driving people from their homes.

        How do you expect some one to feel when he hears threats like “Khaybar, Khayber, Ya Yahud, Jaish Muhammad Sauf Yaud”

        The same way Arabs feel when they hear Zionists chanting “next year in Jerusalem”.

        How can we do peace when we hear from several Palestinian groups that the future state is only the first step of liberation of all Palestine?

        The same way you do peace with those who harp on about Eretz Israel belonging to the Jews.

        ut those people ignore one fact – that this wall saves many lives and the rate of terror attacks decreased dramatically.

        The wall saved no lives. 1,500 people climb over and around the wall every week from the occupied territories. The reason the suicide attacks stopped in that Hamas declared an end to them in 2006.

        You want to control the air, borders and full control on Jordan valley. Although I oppose this solution, I can understand why it is on the table:

        How can you be opposed to such a solution unless you are a racist supremacist? Does it not occur to you that you are admitting to holding the belief that Palestinians are less human and less deserving than Jews, even though you deny holding such beliefs? You believe in denying them their basic human rights and rights to self determination.

        We don’t discriminate them for being Arabs. All the restrictions, checkpoints, laws and licenses are a consequence of our fear.

        Yes, you do discriminate against Arabs. You have over 30 laws that explicitly deny Arabs equal rights. The check points are there to keep Arabs out of Israel and the illegal settlements and prevent them from accessing their own orchards and farms – they are the cost of occupation and colonialism.

        The siatuation Israel i experiencing is not unique – it is the same as the British experienced in Northern Ireland and the colonists experienced in North American and Australia – a resistance to conquest by foreign invaders.

        As for comparisons to Apartheid South Africa, Israel is actually worse, according to Desmond Tutu.

        Israel is fascist apartheid state that is sick with racism, xenophobia and nationalist extremism. Even your own ideas wreak of racism, biggotry, supremacy, entitlement that would not be tolerated in any other democracy.

        The fact you are so unaware of it just goes to show how deeply the racism, discrimination and biggotry runs in Israel.
        and self entitlement

      • Shingo
        September 8, 2013, 8:37 am

        I will continue to do my personal fight for peace and reconciliation between the Arabs and the Jewish state of Israel although many people oppose it.

        How do you hope to achieve reconciliation if you are opposed to equal rights and self determination for the Palestinians?

      • Shingo
        September 8, 2013, 8:47 am

        It seems that I am too polite in my replies to readers, but others not behave the same and lash me as much as they can.

        Politiness is no substitute for humanity and respect for human rights. One could espouse Nazi idiology, but the fact they communicate these beliefs in a polite tone does not make them entitled to polite responses.

        I find your racist, fascist, supremacist beliefs to be offensive, and not worthy of personal respect.

        If you think Israel is an apartheid state – Sein Gesunt!!!

        I don’t think it is, I know it is.

        Many of them are married couples, living in dignity and raise their families – no one has problem with it

        Of course they do, and your denial is further evidence of your delusion. The Israeli government is runs adds in Israel and the US against intermarriage,

        You are doing what most of Israel apologists do, taking an anecdote and trying to present is as the norm in Israel, when polls clearly refute your claims.

        Racist, fascist, pro apartheid biggots don’t think of themselves as racist, fascist, pro apartheid biggots. They think of themselves as nice and normal people, like yourself.

      • just
        September 8, 2013, 8:49 am

        “It is the fear that paralyzes us.”

        I think that the Palestinians have much more to fear than the Israelis. In spite of Israel’s cruelty toward them, they have demonstrated a truly awesome resilience and faith. Any fear that the Israelis have is a direct result of their own belligerent actions and their inaction with regard to making peace with their neighbors and with the population that they so brutally occupy. Israel chooses to be where they are– they imposed their state on the region. So far, I have seen no effort toward becoming a good neighbor– none at all.

      • German Lefty
        September 8, 2013, 9:29 am

        I think that the Palestinians have much more to fear than the [Zionist] Israelis. In spite of Israel’s cruelty toward them, they have demonstrated a truly awesome resilience and faith.

        Right! And Palestinians only call for BDS, not for military intervention. This shows that they want to end Zionism (i.e. Jewish supremacism) by non-violent means, not by violence. I think that this is very noble.

        Any fear that the [Zionist] Israelis have is a direct result of their own belligerent actions and their inaction with regard to making peace with their neighbors and with the population that they so brutally occupy.

        Right! Zionist Israelis only live in fear because they project their own bad character and brutal behaviour onto the Palestinians. In Germany, we have the saying: “Was ich selber denk und tu, das trau ich auch den Anderen zu.”

      • Hostage
        September 8, 2013, 9:50 am

        About the sentenced man: Well, any Arab can tell you that in Israel there are no laws against inter-racial marriage.

        In fact civil marriages cannot be concluded in Israel and the Israeli rabbinate’s laws on marriage do not allow intermarriage between Jews and other “nationalities”.

      • just
        September 8, 2013, 10:05 am

        I appreciate your comments. I also appreciate that you rightfully assigned my comments to Zionist and Zionism, and not to the Israeli people as a whole.

        Thank you, GermanLefty.

      • German Lefty
        September 8, 2013, 12:02 pm

        I know about all the Israeli laws and restrictions of immigrants to Israel. As far as I know, most countries have such laws.
        You fail to understand that Palestinians are NOT immigrants to Israel. Palestinians are the indigenous people of Israel, which was built on Palestinian land. While every state has the right to keep out immigrants, no state has the right to kick out and keep out the indigenous people.
        Palestine – Denied to Palestinians: link to djiin.files.wordpress.com
        Israeli Peace Plan: link to fc05.deviantart.net

      • Hostage
        September 8, 2013, 4:31 pm

        @Hostage: Thanks for the addition. Again, maybe we all interprate discrimination and apartheid in different ways.

        No, the consensus of opinion among the legal experts in the treaty monitoring body charged with the responsibility for measuring Israel’s compliance with the prohibition of apartheid agree that there are a variety of state practices and policies that violate Israel’s obligations under Article 3 of the ICERD.
        link to www2.ohchr.org

      • talknic
        September 9, 2013, 11:02 am

        @ MahaneYehude1 “I live in Jerusalem in Jewish-Muslim neighborhood. “

        An illegal settler. Read UNSC resolution 252 and its EIGHT reminders

      • Shingo
        September 9, 2013, 4:41 pm

        1) OT – occupation it is not a normal situation. Israel had to occupy the territories after the war with Arab countries and remains in the area in order to use them in future negotiation for peace.

        False. Israel began building settlements in the occupied territories as soon as it conquered them and it did so to prevent any likelyhood of a Palestinian state emerging.

        In fact, as Miko Peled explains in his book, the only reason the Israelis agreed to peace talks at all with the PLO in the early 90s, was because they were confident there was no chance of a Palestinian state emerging.

        2) Since Israel remains in the territories it has the responsibility on the ground. As the controller, many laws for the OT were written. Not even one of them is a racist law or aimed to discriminate between people.

        Wrong There are seperate laws for Jews in the OT and Palestinians. Jews are subjected to Israeli civilian laws while the Palestinians are ruled by military/apartheid laws.

        So there is no One law for all!!

        The list of 30 laws Amigo wrote above doesn’t contain even one racist law.

        False. They are all racist.

        Let’s take one law from the list seems most ridiculous to you: License to plant fruit trees. This law is applied to all and aimed to prevent land stilling. I will say something that you won’t love: It aimed to protect Palestinian landlords too.

        False. Palestinian Landlords have be exploited through the law of absentee landlords where land owners are prevented from accessing their land and their land is seized on the basis of the absence.

        A repugnant and racist law.

        3) Israel never annexed the WB and Gaza. The conflict between us and the Palestinians is a unique one and has to be negotiated for a peace. Both sides have to do painful compromises. Most of the Israelis ready for it.

        The only reason Israel has not annexed the WB and Gaza is because:

        1. It cannot do so legally. Annexation would require a referrendum and Israel would not get enough votes to do so
        2. Israel doesn’t want to absorb all the Arabs in those territories as it would tilt the demographic balance in favour of Arabs.

        4) Israel – I repeat again: It is all the way I you explain things:

        Yes, that’s called hasbra – spinning something to mean something else. Israel has been trying to do that for 65 years and failed. There are at least 30 laws which blatantly discriminate between Arab and Jews, governmental and municipals.

        Israel is an apartheid, fascist, racist state. There is no way to spin that any other way.

      • Shingo
        September 9, 2013, 4:44 pm

        I think I wrote too much today on this thread and I don’t want to monopolize it.

        Don’t worry. We are used to Israeli propagandists like you spamming the threads at MW. Every few months, one of you comes along and spins the same talking points, floods the comments section, then runs out of steam and disappears.

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 9, 2013, 5:47 pm

        @Shingo: Speaking in delicate way, the fact that every few months one comes and than disappears is not a great compliment to this forum.

      • eljay
        September 6, 2013, 7:42 am

        >> @eljay:
        >> I have several simple questions and I hope you will be honest enough with your answers:

        The answer to your questions is quite simple: Because it controls the geographic region of Palestine’s land and resources; and because it has a strong, Western-backed economy; and because, for decades, it has crushed and continues to crush any attempt by Palestinians to build a viable nation of their own, Israel offers perhaps the best regional prospect to Palestinians for a living. For that reason, some Palestinians choose to accept second-class status in a supremacist “Jewish State”.

        Because I’m not a Zio-supremacist, I do not accept those Palestinians’ survival instincts as validation of the “goodness” of an oppressive, colonialist, expansionist and supremacist state.

        Because you are a Zio-supremacist, you do accept it.

        I hope you will be honest enough with yourself to question your devotion to an immoral, unjust and supremacist ideology.

      • talknic
        September 6, 2013, 12:38 pm

        MahaneYehude1 “I have several simple questions and I hope you will be honest enough with your answers”

        Impeccably honest, it is one of the most basic of Judaisms tenets. I wonder if your questions are as honest….

        “How do you explain the fact that many Palestinians Israelis join the IDF in the last couple of years serve in apartheid army?”

        A) They’re Israeli citizens. B) “many” is only about 3,000 C) link to thenational.ae

        “Traditionally among the Israeli Muslims, after wedding the woman moves and lives with her husband Hamula (if possible). How do you explain the fact that when the husband is from the WB and the wife from Israel, he moves to Israel to live under the apartheid?”

        Oooooops you just trod in it

        Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s cabinet decided unanimously on Sunday to extend the Citizenship Law restricting the “family reunification” of Israeli citizens with certain foreign partners for an additional year.

        The law denies entry or living permits to partners who are considered a security threat, among them Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza, and citizens of enemy countries or from areas involved in long-term conflict with Israel. The law affects mainly Israeli Arab citizens and their families from the West Bank and Gaza.

        link to haaretz.com

        “And, when receives Israeli citizenship, he does all efforts to bring members of his family receive Israeli citizenship and live under Israeli apartheid. Why?

        You trod in it .. now you’re wading up to your neck in it

        “When an Israeli politician offers “land exchange” solution, it is opposed by most of the Israeli Palestinians, claim “no thanks, we are Israeli citizens”. Could you, please, explain why they want continue live under the supremacist Israel?”

        A) They certainly haven’t immigrated to Israel, it’s been prohibited under Israeli law since 1948, so they were fortunate enough not to have been dispossessed, opting to stay in Israel because that’s where their homeland was. B) When an Israeli politician offers “land exchange” they’re offering Palestinian land to Palestinians so that Israel can keep Palestinian land. 1/3rd of the territory Israel claims has been illegally acquired by war and never legally annexed to Israel link to wp.me

        “An Iraqi Bishop declared “Israel is the only safe place for Christians in the ME”. “Safe” under apartheid? How?

        Interesting search results link to google.com — results one link to your comment here and another to a suspended twitter account. WOW!!

        “Many Syrian refugees enter Israel to receive medical treatment from Israeli supremacist doctors. Why they do it? better die and don’t be treated by supremacists.”

        A) The Golan is not Israeli (UNSC res 497 link to yale.edu ) B) “Many” how many? C) I believe they have been injured rebels, not refugees. You might be right though … link?

        “I rarely use to add links in my comments, but for any above claims I can send credible links or sources.”

        Uh huh.

        “Well, I think I have more than 20 other questions. Let’s keep them for other time.”

        I WE look forward to watching you wade around

      • MahaneYehude1
        September 7, 2013, 3:20 am

        @talknic: I think I wrote enough in other comments (hope MW will publish them) about most of the issues in your comments.

        One thing: I am sure you know use Google. Please, try this on Google “Gabriel Nadaf”. You will be surprised from the number of the results.

      • Hostage
        September 7, 2013, 8:40 am

        Traditionally among the Israeli Muslims, after wedding the woman moves and lives with her husband Hamula (if possible). How do you explain the fact that when the husband is from the WB and the wife from Israel, he moves to Israel to live under the apartheid?

        In fact, the responsible treaty monitoring body has issued several early warning and urgent action procedures because so many families and marriages have been adversely affected by Israel’s Nationality and Entry into Israel Law (Temporary Order) of 31 July 2003. The CERD decided that it raised serious issues with regard to the Article 3 prohibition of apartheid contained in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (ICERD). See for example:
        * Paragraph 20 of CERD/C/ISR/CO/13, link to unispal.un.org
        * UN Document CERD/C/65Dec.2 link to adalah.org

        FYI, the ICERD establishes a treaty monitoring organ, the Committee on the Elimination of all forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD), that reviews individual state compliance with the Convention on an official, and on-going basis. The CERD members are legal experts who are nominated and elected by the State Parties to the Convention.

  5. Justpassingby
    September 5, 2013, 5:31 pm

    Israel/US does this because fooled PA letting this happen.
    40%! Chutzpah.

  6. Stephen Shenfield
    September 5, 2013, 6:09 pm

    It’s a well-established principle that “what’s mine is mine and what’s yours we’ll share.” This is called compromise, and we’ve all had it drummed into our heads that compromise is a good thing and only ideological fanatics are against it.

    • talknic
      September 9, 2013, 12:16 am

      Stephen Shenfield
      //It’s a well-established principle that “what’s mine is mine and what’s yours we’ll share.” This is called compromise//

      It’s called greed. Compromise is a settlement in which each side makes concessions.

      • tree
        September 9, 2013, 12:22 am

        It’s called greed. Compromise is a settlement in which each side makes concessions.

        You obviously failed to detect the snark. And the apt description of the longstanding Israeli “negotiating” position.

  7. Kathleen
    September 5, 2013, 6:36 pm

    And who is pushing hard for this strike on Syria? And how long has Syria been on Israel’s, the I lobbies hit list?

    • James Canning
      September 5, 2013, 7:18 pm

      Did some elements of the Israel lobby oppose the deal with Syria that came close to being achieved in 2008?

      • Ludwig
        September 6, 2013, 12:20 pm

        Thank goodness they did. They would have handed over land to the murderer Assad for a piece of paper.

  8. DICKERSON3870
    September 5, 2013, 6:49 pm

    REL “The Palestinian official said formal talks on borders have not yet started, and that negotiations have focused on security matters… “Israel is using the issue of security to take land,” he said.” ~ AP

    FOR BACKGROUND, SEE – “Oslo 20 years later: The origins and dangers of ‘security zones’”, By Shemuel Meir, +972blog, 9/03/13
    How Israel succeeded in diluting the implementation of the Oslo Accords through a combination of hypothetical worst-case military scenarios and the misleading and incorrect attribution of the term ‘security zones’ to diplomatic texts.
    LINK – link to 972mag.com

  9. Woody Tanaka
    September 5, 2013, 6:59 pm

    Well, this is a joke and pretty much demonstrates the utter and complete lack of good faith on the israeli side. Time to end this evil state. 1P1V1S.

    • seafoid
      September 6, 2013, 4:30 am

      It’s like the dance of the seven veils. Israel has just removed the last veil.
      Not interested in peace. Never was.
      The dance is over.
      How does the international community respond and how do Jews in the US respond. the notion that the status quo is sustainable is for the birds.

      All that crap about peace – what will be the new memes?

  10. James Canning
    September 5, 2013, 7:16 pm

    Israel needs to get out of the entire West Bank. With some very small exceptions, perhaps.

    And Israel needs to tell Israel lobby, and Aipac, to stop promoting endless war in the Middle East.

    • Erasmus
      September 6, 2013, 11:36 am

      Ya’alon: Settlement evacuations is not part of new talks with Palestinians
      By TOVAH LAZAROFF
      LAST UPDATED: 09/04/2013 10:23

      Defense minister says West Bank settlements are important to Israel’s homefront defense, need to be strengthened.

      The renewed Israeli Palestinian negotiations “are not dealing with the evacuation of [West Bank] settlements,”
      Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon said Tuesday evening at a Rosh Hashana toast in Samaria with settler leaders.

      The Samaria Regional Council relayed his words to the media. According to the council, Ya’alon questioned the assumption that in exchange for the word peace, Israel would relinquish territory.

      “In the Middle East, we need to talk about interests and not signed agreements,” he said…..

      see: link to jpost.com

  11. Citizen
    September 5, 2013, 7:26 pm

    What a terrible joke. Meanwhile, the honest broker, Kerry, is trying his best to stick USA knee deep in a third war in the Middle East. And he’s all moral and righteous about it!

  12. xanadou
    September 5, 2013, 7:43 pm

    Now would be a good time for the Palestinians to come together around at least two issues: take Israel to the Hague for crimes against humanity.
    And, concurrently, petition the UN to order Israel back to the 1948 borders.

  13. southernobserver
    September 5, 2013, 9:38 pm

    So, to get this straight, the victims are being offered 13% of their original land? Or is this actually only 60% of the westbank outside of sin city, ~~ 11%. either way a very small prison.

    Well, this was predicted very accurately by this forum and nonZionist commentators. Israel remains intent on the prison farm solution.

    The likely long-term outcome is that no matter what the victims do or do agree to, this will simply be imposed, exactly as the Gaza open air prison was created. The palestinian side surely must understand this already, after 65 years of continuous abuse?

    We should not kid ourselves. Things can always get worse. Instead of a happy prison with work release, the west bank can be turned in to Gaza, or Jordan can be turned into a giant refugee camp when the remaining prisoners are exiled.

    The only possible hope is consistent international pressure. I have now come to believe that all of Israel, not just the settlements should be boycotted.

    • Erasmus
      September 6, 2013, 11:58 am

      Re Southernobserver

      ….I have now come to believe that all of Israel, not just the settlements should be boycotted.

      Of course, partial BDS makes no sense at all.

      The entire State of israel, the entire economy and their companies and Holding system, along with the vast majority of Israel’s Jewish citizen working in any profession are soooo deeply entangled in the occupation, that any partial BDS is virtually impossible to make any differentiation.

      The onus of proof that could possibly qualify for exemption from a GENERAL + TOTAL Boycott of Israel would lie with any respective company or institution that wishes to be exempted because it was “unjustly” affected.

  14. miriam6
    September 5, 2013, 10:23 pm

    Another typically one-sided distorted Mondoweiss take on the I/P conflict

    For one thing, Horowitz’s article makes NO mention of the hugely relevant word actually in play here within the Israeli proposals , namely – SOVEREIGNTY

    Horowitz is careful to exclude the CRUCIAL fact that the Israeli proposals actually means offering SOVEREIGNTY to the Palestinians within temporary borders.

    The Palestinian official said formal talks on borders have not yet started, and that negotiations have focused on security matters. He said the Israelis want to retain control of the West Bank’s border with Jordan, keep early-warning stations on hilltops, and retain military bases near the Jordanian border.

    And why would Israel need to maintain control over the West Bank’s border with Jordan, keep early-warning stations on hilltops, and retain military bases near the Jordanian border.?

    Precisely because a sovereign Palestinian state within temporary borders could potentially put Israel’s security at risk

    Therefore, understandably, Israel wishes to offset the risk it would be taking by retaining control of the West Bank’s border with Jordan, keep early-warning stations on hilltops, and retain military bases near the Jordanian border.

    Unlike Horowitz’s arrogant dismissal of Israeli security needs , this writer understands the implications and potential dangers of a deal involving a sovereign Palestinian state within temporary borders

    By-word for New Year:

    Sovereign Temporary State Permanent and Dangerous

    A sovereign Palestinian state in temporary borders is still a sovereign state

    And once such a sovereign Palestinian state comes into existence, it continues to exist as a sovereign Palestinian state even if it opts to violate or ignore whatever term, conditions and understandings were tied to the creation of that sovereign Palestinian state.

    Yes, Mahmoud Abbas has repeatedly proclaimed that the Palestinians would not accept a sovereign Palestinian state in temporary boundaries, but keep in mind that in apparent sharp contrast to Israelis, the Arabs haggle at the negotiating table with the same skills and determination that Israelis seem to set aside when engaged in diplomacy instead of business.

    So it could very well turn out that Mahmoud Abbas might be willing to make the “tremendous sacrifice” of agreeing to the formation of a sovereign Palestinian state in temporary borders and without reaching a final agreement on various issues in return for a flood of Israeli concessions.

    That sovereign Palestinian state would be potentially the worst case scenario for the Jewish State: a sovereign launching pad for an on going assault against Israel with much of the world readily accepting their explanation that that “struggle” continues since final status issues remain unresolved.

    con’t…

    link to imra.org.il

    Adam Horowitz’s failure , though drearily predictable given his extreme anti Zionist stance , to point out the existential threat such a sovereign Palestinian state represents to Israel , is disingenuous and hypocritical in the extreme

    The hypocrisy lies in Horowitz’s outrage that Israel would seek to maintain it’s OWN security by retaining control of security providing assets whilst simultaneously taking the huge gamble of allowing Palestinian sovereignty within temporary borders

    The fact is that Horowitz and the other Americans on this site would never dream for ONE MOMENT of dismissing fears for American safety if America were proposing to undertake some policy which could compromise American security

    Indeed, Americans on this site are always moaning about the security risks they believe support for Israel brings with it.

    Which makes it the ultimate in hypocrisy that those same Americans arrogantly seek to dismiss Israeli concerns for THEIR ( Israel’s ) national security.

    Indeed , to have American meddlers in the I/P conflict like Horowitz simply dismiss Israeli fears of the potential security risks involved in allowing Palestinian sovereignty within temporary borders, is really rich , coming from a citizen of a country whose nation has inflicted two bloody, brutal wars of occupation on Afghanistan and Iraq not to mention the ‘collateral damage’ of American drone strikes on targets in Pakistan , all for the sake of America’s ‘ security.’

    • Walid
      September 6, 2013, 4:53 am

      “Precisely because a sovereign Palestinian state within temporary borders could potentially put Israel’s security at risk”

      miriam6, there’s no such thing as being half-pregnant; a state is either sovereign or it’s not sovereign and having no control over its borders, its immigration, its shores, its air and its water means that it’s not sovereign. It was evident with Palestinian Authority sovereignty over Area A and B granted by Oslo that continued to be subjected Israeli incursions. The word has no meaning for Israel as far as Palestinians are concerned.

      The term “temporary borders” used by Israel translates into Israel’s intention to continue expanding its borders. Israel wants to retain mostly all of Area C, which is 62% of the West Bank and that includes the Jordan Valley that Netanyahu has vowed to never give up.

      The Palestinians are wasting their time with these bogus negotiations that are being made possible only with the help of the collaborators.

      • Shingo
        September 6, 2013, 5:42 am

        miriam6, there’s no such thing as being half-pregnant; a state is either sovereign or it’s not sovereign and having no control over its borders, its immigration, its shores, its air and its water means that it’s not sovereign.

        It’s really amazing that such a simply concept is beyond Miriam’s comprehension. I suspect she’s been completely caught off guard by this disgusting revelation that she’s resorted to trying to deny the obvious, and pretend it’s no big deal. We all knew there was a good reason why the talks were being kept under wraps, and that it was going to be ugly.

        Furthermore, Miriam also demonstrates her astounding ability to ignore the other elephants in the room – one of which is why only Israel’s security needs to be of paramount concern, and not that of the Palestinians. One can only imagine her reaction and those of her handlers in Israel, to the suggestion that non permanent borders apply to Israel as well as the Palestinian state.

        In so doing, she simply comes across and completely unhinged.

      • talknic
        September 9, 2013, 12:29 am

        @ Walid / Shingo / miriam6

        Mmmm … nope! A prerequisite of Sovereign statehood is independence.

        Palestine is occupied, i.e., not independent. It’s the very reason the already existing and recognized state of Palestine cannot be accepted as a full UN Member.

        Never the less miriam6 does demonstrate time and again the zionist colonizers astounding ability to ignore the fact that they’re wading neck deep in elephant sh*te

      • Walid
        September 9, 2013, 1:10 am

        You’re right of course, talknic, you defined sovereignty with one word, but I felt the need to draw lots pictures to get the point across.

      • talknic
        September 9, 2013, 2:10 am

        Walid // I felt the need to draw lots pictures to get the point across//

        LOL You’ll never ‘get the point across to the likes of miriam6, giladg, dimadok et al. Propagandists are not interested facts, truth or justice, it’s not in their brief. Like holy water to Nosferatu, to be avoided at all costs, including the basic tenets of Judaism. Their arguments are vacuous nonsense. When faced with facts, they dodge, weave, move onto the next piece of empty nonsense

        Responding to their rhetoric here will only benefit people who’re honestly interested in truthfullness and perhaps guide people who’re not too sure of where to stand on the I/P issue to a better understanding. Little do the miriam6′s seem to realize the opportunity they afford.

    • Shingo
      September 6, 2013, 5:16 am

      Another typically one-sided distorted Mondoweiss take on the I/P conflict

      Anotehr verbose, clueless and meandering diatribe from Miriam.

      Horowitz’s article makes NO mention of the hugely relevant word actually in play here within the Israeli proposals , namely – SOVEREIGNTY

      That’s because sovereignty is meaningless without permanent borders. If the borders are temporary, then Israel is able to violate them at will, hence there is no sovereignty.

      So in fact, Israels proposals do not offer SOVEREIGNTY to the Palestinians, because if the sovereignty exists only within temporary borders, it means that “sovereignty” is only termporary and can be here today, gone tomorrow.

      Typical Israeli now you see it, now you don’t kind of proposals.

      It seem you are the only fool not able to see right through the absurdity of this position.

      And why would Israel need to maintain control over the West Bank’s border with Jordan, keep early-warning stations on hilltops, and retain military bases near the Jordanian border.?

      To prevent a viable Palestinian state emerging. You see Miriam, without access to the Jordan Valley, the Palestinian state would:

      a) be completely isolated from the rest of the Arab world and surrounded by Israeli control
      b) be unable to feed itself, seeing as the ordan Valley is the obvious bread basked for the region.

      Precisely because a sovereign Palestinian state within temporary borders could potentially put Israel’s security at risk

      No, but that is the argument Israel is using to try and prevent a viable Palestinian state emerging. By insisting on temporary borders, Israel knows that your BS about sovereignty is completely meaningless.

      Therefore, understandably, Israel wishes to offset the risk it would be taking by retaining control of the West Bank’s border with Jordan, keep early-warning stations on hilltops, and retain military bases near the Jordanian border.

      The only thing to understand here is that this simply means maintaining the status quo, albeit with a new spin. It’s pretty much Olso Mark III.

      Unlike Horowitz’s arrogant dismissal of Israeli security needs

      Israel security needs are a consequence fo Israeli policies of land, theft, occupation, ethnic cleaning and mass murder. Your argument is best described as that of a person who commits patricide, but demands special treatment on account that he/she is an orphan.

      A sovereign Palestinian state in temporary borders is still a sovereign state

      Rubbish. Sovereignty can only exist under permanent conditions, If borders are temporary, then the sovereignty over territory is by definition, only temporary.

      but keep in mind that in apparent sharp contrast to Israelis, the Arabs haggle at the negotiating table with the same skills and determination that Israelis seem to set aside when engaged in diplomacy instead of business.

      What are you babbling about? That is a completely incoherent sentence.

      That sovereign Palestinian state would be potentially the worst case scenario for the Jewish State: a sovereign launching pad for an on going assault against Israel with much of the world readily accepting their explanation that that “struggle” continues since final status issues remain unresolved.

      Rubbish. The fact that the borders would be temporary, means that Israel would reserve the right to pull and push those borders in any direction it likes and destabilize that state.

      Adam Horowitz’s failure , though drearily predictable given his extreme anti Zionist stance , to point out the existential threat such a sovereign Palestinian state represents to Israel , is disingenuous and hypocritical in the extreme

      On the contrary, the hypocrisy is blatantly Israel’s alone. How many times have Israeli propagandists criticized the Arabs for not being agreeable to the creation of a Jewish state on the grounds that it threatened the livelihoods of Arabs already living in Palestine before Israel’s creation? How ay times have they argued that the Arabs were being unreasonable and rejectionist?

      Now that the roles are reversed, Israel argues that its security and jewish identity are sacrosanct.

      It’s racist, supremacist and hypocritical in the extreme.

      The fact is that Horowitz and the other Americans on this site would never dream for ONE MOMENT of dismissing fears for American safety if America were proposing to undertake some policy which could compromise American security

      Like what exactly Miriam? You sound derranged and completely out to lunch.

      Indeed, Americans on this site are always moaning about the security risks they believe support for Israel brings with it.

      Of course they do, because they believe US support for Israel is not only incurring a security cost, but that it is immoral.

      Israel’s security fears are nothing but a pathetic smokescreen that has been exploited to the nth degree to justify it;s ongoing crimes. It is akin to a rapist saying he might as well continue raping his victim because there is a risk that his victim might turns around and attack him if he were to release her.

      Your blindness is truly mind boggling

    • Woody Tanaka
      September 6, 2013, 8:40 am

      And a proper reaction would be: the zios haven’t given a damn about the Palestinians’ security for over a hundred years. Why the hell should anyone give a damn about the israeli’s security? Bugger them and their security.

    • Hostage
      September 6, 2013, 10:52 am

      And why would Israel need to maintain control over the West Bank’s border with Jordan, keep early-warning stations on hilltops, and retain military bases near the Jordanian border.?

      Precisely because a sovereign Palestinian state within temporary borders could potentially put Israel’s security at risk

      That’s another shopworn attempt to resurrect the senescent law of conquest. The Israelis do not get to retain territory acquired by war under the terms of resolution 242 and 338 that govern the final settlement.

      The ‘Repertoire of the Practice of the Security Council contains an analytical table of all of the Security Council decisions for 1966-1968. It breaks down resolution 242 and catalogs each of the decisions contained within it. It says that the preamble of resolution 242 contains two “substantial measures that govern the final settlement”.
      One is the UN Charter prohibition against the threat or use of force contained in Article 2 of the Charter and here is the other from page 5 of the pdf file:
      “E. Provisions bearing on issues of substance including terms of settlement”
      * “1. Enunciation or affirmation of principles governing settlement”
      **”(a) Inadmissibility of acquisition of territory by war,
      Situation in the Middle East(II): Decision of 22 November 1967 (resolution 242 (1967)) preamble”
      **(b) Obligation of Member States to act in accordance
      with Article 2 of the Charter.
      Situation in the Middle East (II):
      Decision of 22 November 1967 (resolution 242
      (1967)). preamble.
      **(c) Withdrawal of armed forces.
      Situation in the Middle East (II):
      Decision of 22 November 1967 (resolution 242
      (1967)). para. 1 (i).
      link to analytical table of Security Council decisions (Chapter 8) for 1966-1968

      The ICJ advised that Israel cannot rely on self-defense or a state of necessity to excuse its illegal and wrongful acts committed in the Occupied Palestinian territory (paragraph 142). link to icj-cij.org

      Judge Rosalyn Higgins noted the obvious fact that, under the land for peace formula contained in 242, Israel get’s peace, not land:

      This is not difficult – from Security Council resolution 242 (1967) through to Security Council resolution 1515 (2003), the key underlying requirements have remained the same – that Israel is entitled to exist, to be recognized, and to security, and that the Palestinian people are entitled to their territory, to exercise self-determination, and to have their own State.

      link to icj-cij.org

      That same advisory opinion noted that Israel is in no position to negotiate sovereignty or self-determination and that it has illegally interfered with the Palestinian exercise of that inherent right.

    • eljay
      September 6, 2013, 11:11 am

      >> Horowitz is careful to exclude the CRUCIAL fact that the Israeli proposals actually means offering SOVEREIGNTY to the Palestinians within temporary borders.

      Although one CRUCIAL fact is that the rapist (sometimes referred to as a rapist AND democratic captor) is willing to unchain his victim from the bed and grant her the SOVEREIGNTY of roaming around her cell, some people are bothered by other CRUCIAL facts: The victim is still locked in the bunker, the rapist has the only key to the lock, and there’s no guarantee he’ll ever actually let her go free.

    • libra
      September 6, 2013, 6:00 pm

      miriam6: Adam Horowitz’s failure , though drearily predictable given his extreme anti Zionist stance , to point out the existential threat such a sovereign Palestinian state represents to Israel , is disingenuous and hypocritical in the extreme

      Dear oh dear, miriam. You do come across as the most colossal ‘whinging pom’ and you haven’t even got to Australia yet. No wonder your visa application is stuck in ‘pending’.

    • Donald
      September 7, 2013, 2:24 pm

      “Indeed , to have American meddlers in the I/P conflict like Horowitz simply dismiss Israeli fears of the potential security risks involved in allowing Palestinian sovereignty within temporary borders, is really rich , coming from a citizen of a country whose nation has inflicted two bloody, brutal wars of occupation on Afghanistan and Iraq not to mention the ‘collateral damage’ of American drone strikes on targets in Pakistan , all for the sake of America’s ‘ security.’”

      This is unintentionally revealing. In the real world, most Americans who are critical of Israel’s policies towards Palestinians are also critical of the American policies that Miriam mentions, because we as American citizens bear some responsibility for all of them and there’s a similar mindset behind all these actions. In Miriam’s world, Israel apparently didn’t support the US invasion of Iraq and Israel is not pushing us to get into war with Iran. In Miriam’s world, apparently if you are an American you can’t do more than one thing at a time–if you criticize Israel and America’s support for Israel you can’t also criticize Obama’s drone policies or the invasion of Iraq or the war in Afghanistan. In fact, the shoe is on the other foot–it’s absurd that Miriam can be so critical (and rightly so) of American actions and yet get all upset because people here are critical of similar Israeli behavior. It suggests that moral consistency isn’t really what Miriam is all about.

      • miriam6
        September 7, 2013, 11:45 pm

        Donald@:

        In the real world, most Americans who are critical of Israel’s policies towards Palestinians are also critical of the American policies that Miriam mentions, because we as American citizens bear some responsibility for all of them

        Donald, In the real world as I inhabit it, Americans critical and willing to take responsibility for those aforementioned policies are very much in the minority .

        MOST Americans for example , by a clear majority of around 65% , continue to SUPPORT American drone strikes abroad which have killed at least 4,700 people to date.

        A wave of recent polls show a majority of Americans support overseas drone strikes against terrorist targets.
        June 4, 2013 AT 5:36AM

        A Monitor/TIPP poll found 57% of Americans favor the current level of drone strikes targeting terrorists in foreign countries, such as Al Qaeda. Nearly a quarter supported the increase of drones overseas, while 11% supported scaling back drone use.
        June 4, 2013, 1:55 a.m.

        A recent Pew Global Attitudes Project poll that surveyed 21 countries found that while most condemned U.S. drone attacks abroad, the U.S. was one of three where a majority didn’t. The poll showed 62% of Americans supported drone use; 28% disapproved.
        June 4, 2013, 1:59 a.m.

        A Gallup poll from March also found nearly two-thirds of Americans surveyed supported drone strikes abroad.
        June 4, 2013, 2:07 a.m.

        American public has few qualms with drone strikes, poll finds

        link to csmonitor.com

        In U.S., 65% Support Drone Attacks on Terrorists Abroad

        link to gallup.com

        Poll: Global Disapproval of U.S. Drone Strikes

        link to nationaljournal.com

        link to cir.ca>

        Donald said;

        In Miriam’s world, Israel apparently didn’t support the US invasion of Iraq and Israel is not pushing us to get into war with Iran. In Miriam’s world, apparently if you are an American you can’t do more than one thing at a time–if you criticize Israel and America’s support for Israel you can’t also criticize Obama’s drone policies or the invasion of Iraq or the war in Afghanistan. In fact, the shoe is on the other foot–it’s absurd that Miriam can be so critical (and rightly so) of American actions and yet get all upset because people here are critical of similar Israeli behavior It suggests that moral consistency isn’t really what Miriam is all about.

        Israeli support for war against Iraq does not make Israel equally culpable for America’s war in Iraq.
        Israeli support for war with Iraq did NOT push America into war with Iraq
        America pushed ITSELF into war with Iraq
        The culpability for the Iraq war lies squarely with America.
        Israel did not push America into that war any more than it can push America into war with Iran .

        An American war with Iran will only happen if America wants it.
        When Israeli interests conflict with American interests , America has no compunction in side-lining Israel , as Noam Chomsky has made clear over and over again.

        Absurdly you are positing a scenario by which America appears as a mere VICTIM of Israel!

        What you are trying to do here is to take Israel’s actions out of context as though Israel were as powerful as America.
        Your argument is singularly unconvincing because America is vastly MORE powerful than Israel.
        America is a superpower with global reach, whereas Israel is a regional power under constant pressure from other regional powers like Iran

        Your real objection seems to be that my argument seeks to put Israeli power and actions in their proper context which you are unwilling to do.
        To re-iterate , America is a global superpower, Israel is not.

        Demand for accountability ought to be greater the more powerful a nation is, therefore it makes completely logical sense to demand greater accountability from America.
        There is therefore , a consistent, solid moral/ political basis for my argument.

      • Shingo
        September 9, 2013, 4:30 pm

        Israeli support for war against Iraq does not make Israel equally culpable for America’s war in Iraq.

        Not equally, but significantly. America did not push ITSELF into war with Iraq, it was dragged into the war by a small clique, largely obsessed with Israel’s regional ambitions. So the culpability for the Iraq war lies with the US, Israel and the UK.

        An American war with Iran will only happen if America wants it.

        That’s a dishonest statement, because we all know that what America wants can be easily manipulated. America would have been opposed to war had they not been fed lies about WMD, Iraq’s links to Al Qaeda and culpability to 911.

        Same with Iran. And every day, Israel works frantically to manipulate public opinion in the US that Iran is a threat to the world.

        America is a superpower with global reach, whereas Israel is a regional power under constant pressure from other regional powers like Iran

        What constant pressure? It is Israel that it constantly threatening to attack Iran and in so doing, threatening to drag the US into a wider war that Israel might start.

        You’re being grossly dishonest Miriam if you deny the fact that the US would come to Israel’s aid in a war with Iran, even if Israel starts it. Israel knows it needs the US to take out Iran, which is why it is trying to push the US to fight the war for them – indeed polls show that the majority of Israelis are only in favour of war with Iran if the US gets involved.

      • miriam6
        September 10, 2013, 2:31 pm

        Shingo:


        MOST Americans for example , by a clear majority of around 65% , continue to SUPPORT American drone strikes abroad which have killed at least 4,700 people to date.

        A wave of recent polls show a majority of Americans support overseas drone strikes against terrorist targets.

        To what shady cabal of influential insiders do you attribute the on-going American public support of drone strikes?

        How exactly do you explain it?

        Americans have had more than a decade now to uncover for themselves the ample evidence , openly available in the American media , of the suffering that the drone strike policy has caused Yemen, Afghanistan and Pakistan.
        Americans must also be aware of the anti American feeling the drone strikes and all of America’s brutal, punitive responses to 9/11 must be stoking up.

        I also take note that Donald has chosen not to answer this question of the American public’s support of drone strikes

        Poor Shingo;

        You have no sense of history whatsoever

        Your entire argument rests on effectively exonerating American responsibility for its own actions and the effects of its decades long policies in the ME region.

        Your entire shaky argument also depends on positing that American politicians and the American public are mere mindless puppets of an all powerful Israel lobby/ cabal of insiders , – rather than the strong ample historical evidence which shows America pursuing a decades long policy of seeking influence and domination in the M.E region and American public support for decades of those same policies

        Your ideas excusing American culpability are ahistorical ignorant nonsense.

        You are conveniently forgetting that preceding the 2003 war was the 1990-1 Gulf War plus the decade long sanctions regime imposed on Iraq.

        The 2003 war was simply a continuation of previous American policy towards Iraq and 9/11 simply provided a pretext enabling a more direct way for America to impose its will on Iraq.

        On the subject of 9/11 again You allege astonishing ignorance on the part of American public and its politicians to shore up your poor argument

        For one thing it was common knowledge open to all Americans within days of the 9/11 attacks that 17 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia

        So tell me, therefore why did Americans support war with Iraq when they knew the culprits were Saudi nationals, as was Bin Laden?

        Are you trying to convince me that Americans are SO dumb they can’t tell the difference between one Arab country and another?

        On the subject of Israel forcing the US into war with Iran.

        Again you are ignoring the strong likelihood that America has pressured Israel NOT to go to war with Iran

        We have had years of Netanyahu sabre rattling and yet no war.

        As time goes on and with changing circumstances in Iran with the election of a supposedly more moderate leader the threat of war recedes ever more.

        At the moment in the M. E region Syria / Egypt is the main concern , not Iran

        America’s war in Iraq and hostility to Iran is perfectly in line with America’s long held policy of pushing for dominance in the ME region since WW2.

        For an exploration of America’s longstanding policies in the M.E region and the cause and effects cycle of violence set in motion by those American policies in the ME see this article by Stephen Zunes written before the 2003 war;

        Iran, 1953:
        When the government of Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh nationalized the Anglo-Iranian oil company, the resulting sanctions on the country led by Great Britain and the United States resulted in economic hardship and political unrest. Fearing that such instability could result in a communist takeover and concerned about the precedent of nationalization on American oil companies elsewhere in the Middle East, agents of the Central Intelligence Agency organized a military coup in 1953, ousting the elected prime minister.

        Had the United States not overthrown Iran s constitutional government in 1953 and replaced it with the dictatorial Shah, there would not have been the Islamic Revolution and its bloody aftermath.

        Iran-Iraq war, 1980-90:
        The United States actively supported Iraq s invasion of Iran, blocking efforts by the United Nations to place sanctions upon Saddam Hussein s regime for its aggression, and providing the Iraqis with economic and military assistance.

        This American support for Saddam Hussein despite his invasion of Iran, his use of weapons of mass destruction, and his unprovoked attack on a U.S. Navy ship in international waters undoubtedly emboldened the Iraqi dictator to believe he could get away with invading another neighbor country: the small but wealthy emirate of Kuwait.

        The Gulf War, 1991:
        The United States led a devastating six-week war against Iraq in early 1991 over Saddam Hussein s refusal to withdraw from the emirate of Kuwait, which Iraq invaded, occupied and annexed in August 1990.

        Going well beyond what was necessary to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi occupation forces, the damage to Iraq s civilian infrastructure and the humanitarian consequences from the resulting sanctions led to widespread anti-American resentment in the region, even among Saddam Hussein s fiercest opponents.

        These included Osama bin Laden, the exiled Saudi businessman who had been a U.S. ally in the war against the communist government in Afghanistan and its Soviet backers during the 1980s and had offered to raise an army of mujahadin to fight the Iraqi occupation forces.

        Bin Laden and his followers were particularly incensed at the increased strategic cooperation resulting from the Gulf War between the United States and the repressive family dictatorships of the Gulf region, particularly Saudi Arabia.

        An additional consequence of the Gulf War was the ongoing stationing of U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia the guardian of Islamic holy places which was deeply offensive to bin Laden and his followers who saw this as a desecration by non-believers of sacred land.

        As a result, bin Laden formed the Al-Qaeda network.

        Had there been no Gulf War, there would have been no 9/11.

        The planned U.S. invasion of Iraq would be unprecedented in its scale.

        If this review of U.S. intervention in the Middle East is any guide, the result could be disastrous, not just for the Iraqi people, but for the United States as well.

        Other great powers that have tried to impose their will on the Middle East have sooner or later faced the consequences.

        Initial victories like the installation of the pro-American Shah of Iran or the defeat of Iraq in the first Gulf War have proved to be illusory in terms of promoting American interests.

        link to commondreams.org

        Noam Chomsky;


        Oh, yes. I mean, control over the Middle East, especially the energy-producing regions, has been the driving force of American foreign policy since World War II.
        U.S. efforts to control the Middle East had been the leading theme in U.S. foreign policy since World War II.

        One of Roosevelt’s main advisors, A. A. Berle, said around the late 1940s that if we can control the Middle East, we can control the world.
        The State Department described the Middle East as a “stupendous source of strategic power,” the “greatest material prize in history.”

        link to palestine-studies.org

        See also this article for an exploration of the Israel lobby theory and what has really driven American policy in the ME region

        link to spiked-online.com

  15. giladg
    September 5, 2013, 11:20 pm

    The Palestinians are very much part of the chaotic Arab world, demonstrated to us on our TV’s every day. In fact the Palestinians have been very active re Hamas/Fatah and if not for Israel, this would have been even further pronounced. How can Israel, or anyone as a matter of fact, think that the Palestinians are in a position to make compromises to help insure Israel’s security? Abbas may or may not sign an agreement with Israel but even if he did he could be thrown out the next week and replaced by another dictator who will have his own take on the region. The Palestinians had elections and Hamas won 70% of the vote in the West Bank but Abbas, who is from Fatah, is still running the show. Does this remind you of Egypt or does Egypt remind you of what is going on with the Palestinians. The Shiite/Sunni rift has always been there, and always will be there, and you say Israel is holding up peace? Please stop fooling yourselves about the Arab/Israeli conflict. It has more to do about the Arabs and Muslims than it does about the Jews.

    • Walid
      September 6, 2013, 2:34 am

      giladg, the Shia-Sunni rift has nothing to do with Palestine. Most Palestinians whether Hamas or Fateh are Sunni. If it wouldn’t have been for an Israel, there wouldn’t have been a Fataeh and most importantly, a Hamas.

      • seafoid
        September 6, 2013, 2:57 am

        FaTaH – Palestinian Liberation movement
        HaMaS – Islamic resistance Movement

        Dead right, Walid. They both arose as a reaction to the colonialism of Israel.

      • mondonut
        September 6, 2013, 1:18 pm

        seafoid says: Dead right, Walid. They both arose as a reaction to the colonialism of Israel.
        ======================================================
        Nonsense, they both arose as a reaction to the EXISTENCE of Israel.

      • seafoid
        September 6, 2013, 4:18 pm

        Israel is settler colonialism par excellence. Why is the r in hebrew pronounced as german?

      • Mondowise
        September 6, 2013, 5:36 pm

        hah! izrael’s EXISTENCE relies solely on colonialism, land thievery, ethnic cleansing, etc…..i.e. izrael’s existence, by its own non-stop choosing, is criminally based and criminally carried out…nothing else or less. it’s never been about judaism, it’s always been only about zionist supremacy and its inherent criminality.

      • ziusudra
        September 7, 2013, 2:41 am

        Greetings mondonut,
        Bingo !
        The doctrines of all governments since 48 have proven their aim of conquest. You agree with seafoid.
        ziusudra

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 3:53 am

        Nonsense, they both arose as a reaction to the EXISTENCE of Israel.

        Israel’s existence is based on ethnic cleansing, land theft and colonialism. Even Netenyahu and Sharon admitted that there is no Israel without (illegal) settlements.

      • Walid
        September 7, 2013, 3:59 am

        “Nonsense, they both arose as a reaction to the EXISTENCE of Israel.”

        Fatah was founded in 1959, that’s 11 years after Israel was declared.
        Hamas was founded in 1987, that’s 39 years after Israel.

        It’s a known fact that Israel could have snuffed out Hamas at its inception with very little effort but chose instead to nurture it in the hope that it would be a counter force that would fight Fatah. You know the rest.

      • Antidote
        September 7, 2013, 11:26 am

        “Israel is settler colonialism par excellence. Why is the r in hebrew pronounced as german?”

        Is it?

        “The reish makes the sound of an ‘R’. You can pronounce it with an American burr, or roll it at the tip of your tongue as in Spanish or Arabic, or “gargle” it way in the back of your throat, somewhat like the ‘R’ in French.”

        link to natashanataniela.wordpress.com

        “resh (r)
        pronounced as the French r (IPA: [ʁ]). Some pronounce it rolled as in Spanish burro (IPA: [r])”

        link to wikitravel.org

        “R as in the Spanish rolled R”
        link to jewishmag.com

        “How to avoid sounding like an Amurrrrican when you pronounce the letter “R.”

        I’ve been conducting the Triangle Jewish Chorale for fourteen years and still struggle with “American R” in our Hebrew and Yiddish songs. The basic problem: our native language, English, has no guttural or rolled consonants, so they are difficult for some people to hear, much less pronounce.

        I tell my singers I’ll accept either
        The “German” or “French” guttural R, or
        The “Spanish” flipped/rolled R.
        The former sounds marginally more authentic in both Hebrew and Yiddish, but the latter is easier to sing.

        By the way, here is an interesting explanation )link to Wikipedia] of the way the R prononunciation of modern Hebrew came about:
        The Zionist Eliezer ben Yehuda – though an Ashkenazi Jew in Czarist Russia – based his Standard Hebrew on the Sephardic dialect originally spoken in Spain, and therefore recommended an alveolar [forward, rolled] R.

        But as the first waves of Jews to resettle in the Holy Land were northern Ashkenazi, they came to speak Standard Hebrew with their preferred uvular articulation [guttural, gargled] as found in Yiddish or modern standard German, and it gradually became the most prestigious pronunciation for the language.

        The modern State of Israel has Jews whose ancestors came from all over the world, but nearly all of them today speak Hebrew with a uvular R because of its modern prestige and historical elite status.”

        link to pratie.blogspot.ca

        The ‘German Jews’ who settled in Palestine during the early aliya waves came predominantly from Eastern Europe (Russia and Poland). In Germany and the rest of Western Europe, as well as in the US, they were considered undesirable, uncivilized and unassimilable ‘Ostjuden’ . The term ‘kike’ , for instance, was coined by German/Western European American Jews for Jewish immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe.

        As for your suggestion that there is something distinctly German or Jewish in settler colonialism: you must be French, British or American? Or Russian, Polish, Czech?

        hasbarafail

      • Hostage
        September 7, 2013, 1:02 pm

        The doctrines of all governments since 48 have proven their aim of conquest.

        No, in fact you could say that all governments have universally ratified the legal doctrines contained in the UN Charter since 1945. link to yale.edu

        Those legal doctrines were deliberately codified in another global agreement, i.e. the Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations. It stipulated that:

        No territorial acquisition resulting from the threat or use of force shall be recognized as legal.

        link to un-documents.net

      • K Renner
        September 6, 2013, 3:46 am

        Not to mention that the only people who really care about it seriously when it comes down to it are either dirt-poor, Salafist oriented Sunni, or the actual Takfiri, or people like the House of Saud who have their own actual reasons for promoting sectarian views.

      • giladg
        September 6, 2013, 10:18 am

        And if the Palestinians would have accepted the 1947 Partition Plan we would not be in the intractable mess we are in now. If, if, if, if …….
        And let me tell you one more thing Walid. Shiite Iran is pulling the strings with Sunni Hamas. Strange bedfellows would you not say? The first order of the day is to destroy the Jewish state. After that they will deal with their differences.
        The Shiites and the Sunni’s are at war with each other as each wants to control the Muslims world.

      • Walid
        September 6, 2013, 12:46 pm

        “if the Palestinians would have accepted the 1947 Partition Plan …”

        Giladg, they were given an offer they could not accept; it was for them to go from owning over 90% of the land to getting only something like half of it, and worst of all, the shitty half with the provision that the Jews would have unlimited immigration into Palestine.

        Had the Jews owned 90% of the land and had been offered to keep only half of it, and the shitty half at that, would the Jews have accepted?

        BTW, Hamas moved its tent to the Qatar oasis last February, so it’s no longer that politically or financially close to Iran.

      • talknic
        September 6, 2013, 2:04 pm

        giladg ” if the Palestinians would have accepted the 1947 Partition Plan “

        The Palestinians weren’t asked if they wanted Palestine partitioned.

        “we would not be in the intractable mess we are in now. If, if, if, if …….”

        If Israel has adhered to its borders .. “MY DEAR MR. PRESIDENT: I have the honor to notify you that the state of Israel has been proclaimed as an independent republic within frontiers approved by the General Assembly of the United Nations in its Resolution of November 29, 1947, and that a provisional government has been charged to assume the rights and duties of government for preserving law and order within the boundaries of Israel, for defending the state against external aggression, and for discharging the obligations of Israel to the other nations of the world in accordance with international law. The Act of Independence will become effective at one minute after six o’clock on the evening of 14 May 1948, Washington time.”

        Alas, at the time Israel was declared and recognized, Jewish forces were already far beyond Israel’s borders, busy dispossessing non-Jews and they are still far beyond Israel’s borders, busy dispossessing non-Jews. The Palestinians are not and have not exceeded their borders (by default of Israel’s borders) . They have taken NOTHING of Israel’s.

        “The first order of the day is to destroy the Jewish state. “

        Problem, they’ve agreed to recognize Israel by the so called ’67 borders. I.e., the 1949 Armistice Demarcation Lines. Meanwhile Israel has actually been destroying Palestine, having already illegally acquired over 50% of what remained of Palestine after Israel was declared.

        Your myopic Hasbara has passed it’s use by date dude. Debunked, defunct.

      • Ludwig
        September 6, 2013, 2:05 pm

        They didn’t own 90% of the land. That is a lie.

      • Hostage
        September 6, 2013, 2:50 pm

        They didn’t own 90% of the land. That is a lie.

        The British were given full powers of administration and a mandate to promote close settlement of Jews on “State lands”, except for any State lands that they determined were needed for other public purposes. Read Article 6 of the Mandate for yourself: link to avalon.law.yale.edu

        In time they adopted a law that prohibited Jews from acquiring any private or state-owned land in 2/3rds of the country between the River and the Sea. Land transfers in Zones A and B, except to a “Palestinian Arab”, were prohibited. Judea and Samaria were located in those Zones. Here is a link to the map link to books.google.com See also the case of Bernard A. Rosenblatt (petitioner) vs. the Registar of Lands, Haifa ; Director of Land Registration, Jerusalem; Edmond N. Levy (respondents) (High court case no. 19/47): in the Supreme court sitting as a High Court of Justice ; before the chief justice Sir William Fitzgerald and Mr. Justice de Comarmond; hearings on 9th May, 1947 and 12th May, 1947.

        Ben Gurion personally testified to the UN Special Committee on Palestine that Jews didn’t even have a plausible legal claim to public lands, were prohibited from purchasing land in 2/3rds of the country, and only owned about 6 percent of the privately-owned land in the remainder:

        Mr. BEN GURION: . . . There are some 600,000 Jews in Palestine and some 1,100,000 Arabs. There are no reliable figures in this respect. There is an even greater disparity than that. The Arabs own 94% of the land, the Jews only 6%. — link to unispal.un.org

        Mr. BEN GURION: “To partition,” according to the Oxford dictionary, means to divide a thing into two parts. Palestine is divided into three parts, and only in a small part are the Jews allowed to live. We are against that. — link to unispal.un.org

      • Walid
        September 6, 2013, 2:57 pm

        “That’s a lie”

        No it isn’t, Ludwig; check the maps:

        link to google.ca

        and

        link to palestineremembered.com

      • tree
        September 6, 2013, 3:01 pm

        Its the truth, Palestinian non-Jews owned approximately 90% of the land in Palestine, until they were dispossessed by the newly formed Israeli government. I’ve mentioned this in innumerable comments in the last few years:

        According to the official British Survey of Mandate Palestine, issued in 1945, private ownership of land by non-Jewish Palestinians encompassed 24 million dunams (approximately 90% of Mandate Palestine), while Jewish land ownership was only 1.5 million dunams ( approximately 5%). (Look at table 2 of the Survey located at the embedded link above.) Public land administered by the British constituted just 5% of Mandate Palestine.

        Even the Jewish National Fund acknowledged that the majority of land was privately held by Palestinian Arabs.

        The Jewish National Fund made a study of Jewish villages in Israel in 1949 and stated:(9)

        Of the entire area of the State of Israel only about 300,000- 400,000 dunams – apart from the desolate rocky area of the southern Negev, at present quite unfit for cultivation – are State Domain which the Israel Government took over from the Mandatory regime. The J.N.F. and private Jewish owners possess under two million dunams. Almost all the rest belongs at law to Arab owners, many of whom have left the country. The fate of these Arabs will be settled when the terms of the peace treaties between Israel and her Arab neighbours are finally drawn up. The J.N.F., however, cannot wait until then to obtain the land it requires for its pressing needs. It is, therefore, acquiring part of the land abandoned by the Arab owners, through the Government of Israel, the sovereign authority in Israel.

        link to palestine-encyclopedia.com

        citing “Jewish Villages in Israel”, Jewish National Fund (Keren Kayemeth Leisrael), Head Office, Jerusalem, 1949, pp. xxi-xxii

      • Walid
        September 6, 2013, 3:06 pm

        Ludwig, more about the above maps from Juan Cole:

        The second map shows the United Nations partition plan of 1947, which awarded Jews (who only then owned about 6% of Palestinian land) a substantial state alongside a much reduced Palestine. Although apologists for the Zionist movement say that the Zionists accepted this partition plan and the Arabs rejected it, that is not entirely true. Zionist leader David Ben Gurion noted in his diary when Israel was established that when the US had been formed, no document set out its territorial extent, implying that the same was true of Israel. We know that Ben Gurion was an Israeli expansionist who fully intended to annex more land to Israel, and by 1956 he attempted to add the Sinai and would have liked southern Lebanon. So the Zionist “acceptance” of the UN partition plan did not mean very much beyond a happiness that their initial starting point was much better than their actual land ownership had given them any right to expect.

        The third map shows the status quo after the Israeli-Palestinian civil war of 1947-1948. It is not true that the entire Arab League attacked the Jewish community in Palestine or later Israel on behalf of the Palestinians. As Avi Shlaim has shown, Jordan had made an understanding with the Zionist leadership that it would grab the West Bank, and its troops did not mount a campaign in the territory awarded to Israel by the UN. Egypt grabbed Gaza and then tried to grab the Negev Desert, with a few thousand badly trained and equipped troops, but was defeated by the nascent Israeli army. Few other Arab states sent any significant number of troops. The total number of troops on the Arab side actually on the ground was about equal to those of the Zionist forces, and the Zionists had more esprit de corps and better weaponry.

        The final map shows the situation today, which springs from the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank in 1967 and then the decision of the Israelis to colonize the West Bank intensively (a process that is illegal in the law of war concerning occupied populations).

        There is nothing inaccurate about the maps at all, historically. Goldberg maintained that the Palestinians’ ‘original sin’ was rejecting the 1947 UN partition plan. But since Ben Gurion and other expansionists went on to grab more territory later in history, it is not clear that the Palestinians could have avoided being occupied even if they had given away willingly so much of their country in 1947. The first original sin was the contradictory and feckless pledge by the British to sponsor Jewish immigration into their Mandate in Palestine, which they wickedly and fantastically promised would never inconvenience the Palestinians in any way. It was the same kind of original sin as the French policy of sponsoring a million colons in French Algeria, or the French attempt to create a Christian-dominated Lebanon where the Christians would be privileged by French policy. The second original sin was the refusal of the United States to allow Jews to immigrate in the 1930s and early 1940s, which forced them to go to Palestine to escape the monstrous, mass-murdering Nazis.

        The map attracted so much ire and controversy not because it is inaccurate but because it clearly shows what has been done to the Palestinians, which the League of Nations had recognized as not far from achieving statehood in its Covenant. Their statehood and their territory has been taken from them, and they have been left stateless, without citizenship and therefore without basic civil and human rights. The map makes it easy to see this process. The map had to be stigmatized and made taboo. But even if that marginalization of an image could be accomplished, the squalid reality of Palestinian statelessness would remain, and the children of Gaza would still be being malnourished by the deliberate Israeli policy of blockading civilians. The map just points to a powerful reality; banishing the map does not change that reality.

        link to juancole.com

      • tree
        September 6, 2013, 3:20 pm

        And if the Palestinians would have accepted the 1947 Partition Plan we would not be in the intractable mess we are in now.

        Actually, the reason we are in this mess has nothing to do with the Palestinian acceptance or rejection of the Partition Plan. It has everything to do with the Zionist leaders rejection of the Partition Plan. They were the much more powerful party. They violated all the civil, religious and individual rights of non-Jews in direct contradiction of the guarantees proposed by the Partition Plan. Israel only “accepted” the idea of gaining a portion of Mandate Palestine (until they could grab the rest of it), but completely rejected the protections of the Partition Plan. The ethnic cleansing of the Jewish State was in gross violation of the Partition Plan, as was the creation of the system of martial law that Palestinian Israelis lived under for the first 18 years, as was and is the continual confiscation of private Palestinian land to be used for Jewish settlement both within and outside the ( disappearing) green line.

      • American
        September 6, 2013, 3:45 pm

        giladg says:
        September 6, 2013 at 10:18 am

        And if the Palestinians would have accepted the 1947 Partition Plan we would not be in the intractable mess we are in now.>>>>>

        LOL…what bs. Wouldnt have mattered a bit……the terrorist zio thugs like Irgun that were leading Isr then (and still) would have done the same things regardless—-kill and terrorize, run people off to steal their land and belongings. That is what they were, common run of the mill murders and thiefs ….operating under cover of the holocaust award of Palestine.

      • Woody Tanaka
        September 6, 2013, 5:34 pm

        “And if the Palestinians would have accepted the 1947 Partition Plan we would not be in the intractable mess we are in now”
        – the Zionist

        “And if my victim had stopped fighting and simply let me rape her, the whole thing would be over by now”
        – the Rapist

      • RoHa
        September 7, 2013, 12:31 am

        “And if the Palestinians would have accepted the 1947 Partition Plan we would not be in the intractable mess we are in now.”

        That should be “if the Palestinians had accepted …”
        (If you don’t believe me, check with William Safire. Appalling American Zionist, but he knew his grammar.)

        If the Zionists had not wanted to take over part of Palestine, we would not have this problem. The Palestinians were living quietly in their own country. They did not go and stir up trouble in Poland or Brooklyn. It was the Zionists who came to Palestine and caused all the trouble.

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 3:55 am

        And if the Palestinians would have accepted the 1947 Partition Plan we would not be in the intractable mess we are in now.

        Of course we would. ben Gurion said the partition was only temporary and that it’s acceptance was only a stepping stone towards conquering all of Palestine.

        So we wold be in the same mess today, albeit based on another false excuse on Israel’s part.

        Shiite Iran is pulling the strings with Sunni Hamas.

        No they haven’t and are not.

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 3:57 am

        it was for them to go from owning over 90% of the land to getting only something like half of it

        And yet the hasbarats still insist the PAlestinians were foolish to reject this offer

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 3:58 am

        They didn’t own 90% of the land.

        Jews only owned 7% of it and were given 56%.

      • seafoid
        September 7, 2013, 4:16 am

        That is more bot spin. The palestinians were always going to be dispossessed. Israel could never have come into being by playing by the rules. Settler colonialism is brutal even if is wrapped in hatorah.

      • Walid
        September 7, 2013, 5:16 am

        The source of the problem was astutely presented by Juan Cole (quoted in a post above) when he said:

        The first original sin was the contradictory and feckless pledge by the British to sponsor Jewish immigration into their Mandate in Palestine, which they wickedly and fantastically promised would never inconvenience the Palestinians in any way. It was the same kind of original sin as the French policy of sponsoring a million colons in French Algeria, or the French attempt to create a Christian-dominated Lebanon where the Christians would be privileged by French policy. The second original sin was the refusal of the United States to allow Jews to immigrate in the 1930s and early 1940s, which forced them to go to Palestine to escape the monstrous, mass-murdering Nazis.

      • talknic
        September 7, 2013, 5:20 am

        @Ludwig “They didn’t own 90% of the land”

        Irrelevant.. The ownership of land is ‘real estate’ or ‘property’, for which one has a deed. Whereas ‘territory’ belongs to all its legal inhabitants, whether they own ‘real estate’, rent or lease ‘real estate’ or are homeless bums living under a bridge.

        ‘real estate’ wasn’t partitioned. The ‘territory’ of Palestine was.

        Zionist colonist arguments are really quite stupid, ‘specially formulated for people who don’t think!

      • Obsidian
        September 7, 2013, 8:43 am

        @Hostage

        I can’t find Rosenblatt v Registrar anywhere on the internet.

        Can you point me where I can find this decision?

      • Antidote
        September 7, 2013, 12:47 pm

        “The second original sin was the refusal of the United States to allow Jews to immigrate in the 1930s and early 1940s, which forced them to go to Palestine to escape the monstrous, mass-murdering Nazis.”

        Cole fails to mention what in this line of argument would certainly qualify as the third original sin: The Transfer Agreement by which German Jews were settled in Palestine by the Nazis during the 1930s

        What made the Nazis “monstrous, mass-murdering”?

        The preferred view is, of course, that they were inherently so and just waited for the right time to strike – when everyone was distracted by the war (which was allegedly fought to save the Jews)

        It’s a convenient and transparent nonsense which only serves to justify subsequent military inventions (from Kosovo to Syria) serving no other purpose but empire as alleged humanitarian interventions.

        More plausibly (esp. in view of Hitler’s ‘Prophesy-Speech’) it was both the British/French and, especially, the US entry into war against Germany that doomed the Jews of Europe. Just as the Kosovo intervention intensified the inter-ethnic violence it was supposed to alleviate.

        See also Libya and, perhaps soon to come, Syria.

        link to en.wikipedia.org

        link to holocaust-history.org

        link to upf.edu

      • Hostage
        September 7, 2013, 1:20 pm

        I can’t find Rosenblatt v Registrar anywhere on the internet.

        Then try Inter-Library Loan and ask for a copy of this: link to books.google.com

        There is a copy available from the Hebrew University here if you are in Israel: link to hufind.huji.ac.il

        You can also obtain pages 287-295 from The Law Reports of Palestine, Volume 14, Waterlow & Sons, 1947 and the Chapter on Mandates from Volume 1 of the State Department Digest of International Law, Marjorie Whiteman (editor), 1963. They both summarize the case.

      • Hostage
        September 8, 2013, 2:35 am

        Cole fails to mention what in this line of argument would certainly qualify as the third original sin: The Transfer Agreement by which German Jews were settled in Palestine by the Nazis during the 1930s

        Germany was a member of the League of Nations. As such, it was bound to support efforts by the League’s mandatory administration to settle Jewish immigrants on state and waste lands in Palestine.

        The subject of the Transfer Agreement was capital, not Jewish emigrants. The Germans adopted currency control regulations that prevented capital flight, but allowed requited transfers.

        The Haavara Agreement only applied to the surplus wealth of persons who were already qualified to emigrate to Palestine, because they had the minimum amount of 1000 Palestinian Pounds required by the British administration to secure a “Captialist visa”. It obliged the parties receiving the requited transfers to acquire an asset in the form of German manufactured goods. The partners in the Palestine trust company paid the emigrants the equivalent of their deposits according to the funds available from the resale of those German goods. The Transfer Agreement didn’t save Jews, it only saved their money. The overwhelming majority of German Jews emigrated to countries other than Palestine, where the Haavara Agreement simply wasn’t a factor.

      • tree
        September 8, 2013, 2:42 am

        The second original sin was the refusal of the United States to allow Jews to immigrate in the 1930s and early 1940s, which forced them to go to Palestine to escape the monstrous, mass-murdering Nazis.

        This gets repeated endlessly but it is totally wrong. The US never restricted immigration solely on the basis of religion. In the 1920′s, well before Hitler came to power, and in fact while he was serving time in prison, the US passed laws restricting immigration based on country of origin, in an attempt to maintain the numerical prevalence of Western and Northern European stock over newer Southern and Eastern Europeans, and Asians. German immigration, although limited by quotas, was not banned, and in fact from the 1930′s to early 1940′s its estimated that 140,000 German Jews immigrated to the US, and the total German Jewish immigration to other countries was on the order of 450,000 or 70% of the total German Jewish population of 600,000.

        Jews were not restricted as Jews from immigrating to the US and they were the overwhelming majority of the immigrants arriving in the US from Germany during this time. Overall, from 1931-39, over 20% of all US immigrants were Jews, which was the highest Jewish percentage of any decade in US history. In 1939 alone, over 50% of ALL US immigrants were Jews.

        During this same period, approximately 40,000 to 50,000 German Jews arrived in Palestine. This was only 10% of the total German Jewish immigration. Not only that, but the Zionists in Palestine, who were in charge of determining who exactly was allowed in to Palestine under British quotas had a selection process that put greater weight on whether a particular Jew was a Zionist, in good health and capable of materially aiding the Zionist cause and economy over the need or vulnerability of that particular Jew. Thus, sometimes a Jew from the US or the Americas were given preference over a German or Eastern European Jew, and young adults were given preference over the elderly or young children.

        It should also be noted that during the time of the US immigration quotas, Ukrainians, who were dying in the millions from the forced starvation of the Holodomor, were almost completely cut off from any immigration to the US. Poles, who were as a nation suffering from the Soviet Union’s Great Terror were also nearly completely cut off from US immigration, as were other Eastern and Southern Europeans. The majority of the Europeans who were victimized by the massive curtailment of US immigration opportunities that occurred in the 1920′s and onward were religiously Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

        It should also be noted that during this time any immigration to the US from Asian countries was COMPLETELY prohibited, and those Asians who had immigrated earlier were prohibited from becoming naturalized US citizens.

        I’m sick and tired of the lie that Jews were singled out for prohibition, and the lie that others were not as negatively impacted by the country restrictions as Eastern European Jews. The US restrictions doomed Ukrainian kulaks, Polish nationalists and others well before they doomed Eastern European Jews.

      • tree
        September 8, 2013, 2:49 am

        The Transfer Agreement didn’t save Jews, it only saved their money.

        And for the most part it seems it saved the money primarily for the Israeli government and banks, not for the individual Jews.

      • tree
        September 8, 2013, 3:07 am

        More plausibly (esp. in view of Hitler’s ‘Prophesy-Speech’) it was both the British/French and, especially, the US entry into war against Germany that doomed the Jews of Europe.

        No, the Nazis formulated Generalplan Ost and the Starvation Plan well before the US entered the war in December 1941. It wasn’t just about the Jews. It was about expanding Germany at the expense of the Slavs and Soviets. Germany attacked the Soviet Union in June of 1941.

      • seafoid
        September 9, 2013, 5:15 pm

        “They didn’t own 90% of the land. That is a lie.”

        What is for damn sure is the land didn’t ever belong to the Zionists.
        How come the bots haven’t taken over any other country where the locals are all tenant farmers? the notion that the natives of anywhere can be dispossessed because of a superior Jewish claim based on the bible is for the birds.
        Why doesn’t the land of what used to be known as the Soviet Union revert to Jewish ownership? Nobody who worked on any collective farm owned the land etc.

    • K Renner
      September 6, 2013, 3:44 am

      “The Palestinians are very much part of the chaotic Arab world, demonstrated to us on our TV’s every day.”

      Idiotic, insipid agitprop that lamely tries to claim that the Arab world is uniformly in turmoil/is self-responsible for everything that has been going on in the region for the past century.

      Not even worth taking seriously, but I just had to point out how flawed that way of thinking is– “Arabs are chaotic and inferior because Arab states are more diverse in opinion and in political history then our precious chosen people’s state!”

      Stupid.

      “In fact the Palestinians have been very active re Hamas/Fatah and if not for Israel, this would have been even further pronounced.”

      Yeah, how dare those Palestinians be interested in different groups that are against Israeli expansionism and Zionist policies? Better go out and steal more land!

      Then go shoot live ammo at people protesting the appropriation of their land and the strangling of their economy. That’ll make them love you and yours, champ!

      “How can Israel, or anyone as a matter of fact, think that the Palestinians are in a position to make compromises to help insure Israel’s security? Abbas may or may not sign an agreement with Israel but even if he did he could be thrown out the next week and replaced by another dictator who will have his own take on the region. The Palestinians had elections and Hamas won 70% of the vote in the West Bank but Abbas, who is from Fatah, is still running the show. Does this remind you of Egypt or does Egypt remind you of what is going on with the Palestinians. The Shiite/Sunni rift has always been there, and always will be there, and you say Israel is holding up peace? Please stop fooling yourselves about the Arab/Israeli conflict. It has more to do about the Arabs and Muslims than it does about the Jews.”

      And some generic Zionist soundbites of the usual “Arabs are inferior and all Muslims are savage takfiri murderers” and all other kinds of rubbish that I could go against in depth, but am too tired right now to do so.

      Maybe send me a hostile response, gilead, and I will follow up on those things you just said that you want to seem “factual” and claim are “points”.

      • giladg
        September 6, 2013, 10:21 am

        Your a small picture type of guy Mr. Renner. You should try pulling your head out of the sand for change.

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 4:04 am

        Your a small picture type of guy Mr. Renner.

        Yes, tell the rape victim to think of the big picture. Stop resisting and one day, we’ll be good friends.

      • Walid
        September 7, 2013, 4:04 am

        Giladg, what was false in what K.Renner wrote?

      • K Renner
        September 7, 2013, 1:04 pm

        I wasn’t aware that stating things that were factual, in response to wild and insulting accusations, for lack of a better word, of an entire racial group– accusations that aren’t based in truth or otherwise don’t take into account different issues or situations in different countries– was indicative of not being able “to see the big picture”.

    • eljay
      September 6, 2013, 11:24 am

      >> It has more to do about the Arabs and Muslims than it does about the Jews.

      IOW: We’ve been committing acts of injustice and immorality for over 60 years…but it’s not our fault. And although we have the power to stop acting unjustly and immorally, we choose not to…but it’s not our fault.

      Aggressor-victimhood is a tough gig… :-(

  16. Walid
    September 6, 2013, 1:17 am

    From Haaretz of March 2, 2010:

    Netanyahu: Israel will never cede Jordan Valley

    PM tells Knesset committee that area’s strategic location makes pullout impossible, even in peace deal.

    By Jonathan Lis | Mar. 2, 2010 | 12:09 PM

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Tuesday that Israel would never agree to withdraw from the Jordan Valley under any peace agreement signed with the Palestinians.

    Netanyahu told the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that the Jordan Valley’s strategic importance along the eastern border of the West Bank made it impossible for Israel to withdraw, according to a meeting participant.

    link to haaretz.com

    • seafoid
      September 6, 2013, 1:32 am

      Back in December the bots went nuts when Abu Mazen went to the UN and accused him of sabotaging peace. They said peace could only be negotiated with Israel. Here is the answer.

      Colonialism is incompatible with the reflective spirit of the high holidays. Every year in zionism is a year of moral deterioration.

    • MahaneYehude1
      September 6, 2013, 2:33 am

      @Walid: I just want to remind you that Menachem Begin, the first right-wing Israeli PM, withdrawal from Sinai desert. Ariel Sharon, other right-wing Israeli PM, withdrawal from Gaza Strip and ordered Israeli settlements to be evacuated.

      When a real opportunity for peace will be on the table, all would forget their statements.

      • Walid
        September 6, 2013, 4:13 am

        Mahane Yehude1, Begin gave up the Sinai to reach a peace deal with Egypt and to secure a perpetual annuity of $billions from the US.

        Ariel Sharon only withdrew to outside of Gaza’s border but kept a vise grip on it that hasn’t been released since 13 years and in his own words or in those of his main adviser and in so many other words, to throw sand in the eyes of the whole world while he stole an area on the WB greater than the area of Gaza that was given up with the help of the snaking wall. Sharon also “gave up” Gaza in exchange of the US Congressional resolution enshrining the facts that the 67 borders would never be returned to by Israel and that the Palestinians would not be returning to their land under RoR.

        As to Netanyahu, the guy has been straight about his feelings from the start and he is not about to change them for any peace deal with the Palestinians. It wasn’t long ago that he bragged how he had succeeded in sabotaging the Oslo.

      • seafoid
        September 6, 2013, 4:21 am

        “When a real opportunity for peace will be on the table, all would forget their statements.”

        Nobody buys that crap, MahaneYehuda.
        The bots have decided that YESHA is forever and people like you are going to have to live with the consequences. It’s a very Jewish tragedy in the making.

        link to ft.com

        “Mr Stein, who is now a fellow at the Tel Aviv-based Institute for National Security Studies, said Israeli policies were no longer attuned to the broader European “zeitgeist”. The two sides, he argued, differed fundamentally on philosophical issues such as international law and the acceptability of using armed force, but were particularly divided regarding Israel’s approach towards the Palestinians.

        A similar point was made by Barak Ravid in an article for the Haaretz daily that described the UN vote as “a humiliating diplomatic rout” for Israel: “Germany, France, Britain, Italy and other friendly countries delivered a message to Israel with their votes – their patience with the occupation of the West Bank has worn off, they have had enough of settlement construction and there’s no faith in Israeli declarations of . . . desire to advance towards a Palestinian state.””

    • seafoid
      September 6, 2013, 2:58 am

      “Israel will never cede Jordan Valley”

      Maybe whatever follows Israel will.

  17. mcohen
    September 6, 2013, 3:40 am

    #HASBARAFAIL

  18. seafoid
    September 6, 2013, 4:43 am

    Ariel Sharon symbolizes the state of the Zionist brain at the moment.
    There is no mental activity going on. It’s on screensaver mode. The machine works 24/7 in the background but nobody is thinking about where this is all headed.

    link to haaretz.com

    “Former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon underwent abdominal surgery at Sheba Medical Center on Tuesday afternoon to correct a problem in his intravenous feeding system.
    The operation, which lasted an hour, was planned several months ago.
    Following the surgery, Sharon was transferred to the hospital’s intensive care unit for post-operative monitoring. He is scheduled to be transferred back Wednesday to Sheba’s respiratory rehabilitation unit, where he has been hospitalized for a number of years. Sharon’s condition remains unchanged following the surgery; for the past few years, it has been defined as a state of “minimal consciousness.” “

  19. Andreas Schlueter
    September 6, 2013, 7:11 am

    This is an “offer” to block the talks. What Israel´s hardcore Zionist Power Elite wants in the end is the “whole cake”! That conflicts with what the West can “stand”. Ones again: the present US Government is the Government representing the “Soft Power Fraction” (an Orwellian name, since they´re also not shy to strangulate whole national economies) of the US Power Elite. Their concept follows Zbigniew Brzeziński´s concept of including part of the Islamic world into the encirceling of Russia and China. But the Neocons (themselves driven by the blackmail power of Israel´s Power Elite) is systematically smashing that concept, to get the Islamic world “under their boot” first.

    So the line of “Seven Countries in Fife Years” which Wesley Clarke exposed so nicely is on the agenda again: link to youtube.com ! The aim from the side of Israel is the Region “in flames” to have an argument for the “Transfer”!

    Andreas Schlüter
    Sociologist
    Berlin, Germany

    • just
      September 6, 2013, 7:43 pm

      Interesting and thought- provoking.

    • German Lefty
      September 8, 2013, 1:15 pm

      Hi Andreas,
      I just read that you are a member of the Left Party. I am a loyal voter of that party. Have you spoken with other party members about Israel? What is their opinion on anti-Zionism and the left-wing version of a one-state solution? Also, did you watch the following segment from The Real News?
      Why is the German Left Unconditionally Supporting Israel?
      link to therealnews.com
      Last but not least: How did you get that picture into your profile?

      • MHughes976
        September 8, 2013, 6:07 pm

        Because of wartime memories. Why else? It’s not too different in other Euro countries, UK included.
        Virgil’s ‘nimium meminisse necesse est’ – ‘we hold on to our memories, they are necessary but they are too much for us’ is very expressive, I think.

  20. seafoid
    September 7, 2013, 6:33 am

    Before Petraeus met Ms. Broadwell he used to ask “how does this end?”.
    How does Israel think this will end?

    • Walid
      September 7, 2013, 11:52 am

      “How does Israel think this will end?”

      They are still relying on the old credo ” the old will die and the young will forget”.
      Somehow, it’s not working out according to plan. The old are of course dying but the young are having lots of babies.

      • seafoid
        September 7, 2013, 4:29 pm

        They created their dud culture from nothing so they think they can delete palestinian culture and reduce it to nothing but they don’t understand the dignity of the human condition.

      • RoHa
        September 7, 2013, 10:56 pm

        “The old are of course dying but the young are having lots of babies.”

        And they are not forgetting the way they are supposed to.
        As I have said before, everything young people do is wrong.

  21. just
    September 7, 2013, 7:14 am

    “Israel’s “New Historians” are not so new any more (they emerged in the 1980s), but remain controversial. Ilan Pappé, author of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (2006), is no exception. Here he reminds us that Israel is not an exclusively Jewish state: at least 20% of its citizens are Palestinian. However, some Israeli citizens are more equal than others. Israeli Palestinians exist in a precarious middle ground between Israeli Jews and the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, their dialect a Palestinian-Israeli Arabic that incorporates Hebrew words. Opinion polls suggest a majority of Jewish Israelis see Palestinian Israelis as a threat to be removed. Israeli Palestinians may have equal voting rights, but Pappé shows how they are treated as second-class citizens in education, housing and employment, and prevented from owning land and property in Israel. In this reasoned, readable history of Israeli Palestinians, Pappé even draws an analogy with Native Americans in the US, while outlining the many ways in which Palestinian Israelis have stood up for their rights.”

    link to theguardian.com

    Interesting that this review was published yesterday. Perhaps citizens are ready for the truth.

    • Hostage
      September 7, 2013, 9:39 am

      “Israel’s “New Historians” are not so new any more (they emerged in the 1980s), but remain controversial.

      In 1979 the governments of the United States, the United Kingdom, and Israel followed their 30 year declassification schedules and published many of the documents dealing with the UN partition plan and the 1948 War in their official volumes of Documents on Foreign Policy.

      The so-called “New Historians” had a field day with the cornucopia of newly available historical material. They provided a summary and commentaries on the contents of the archives in their particular areas of interest. There is really no dispute or controversy in scholarly or diplomatic circles over the things revealed in the original documentary sources. In fact the standard textbooks used by Middle Eastern Studies departments of most universities these days in the areas of history, political science, and social science are based upon the official archive sources and the work of the New Historians.

      The Zionist cabal of Wikipedia editors and official Israeli propagandist organs are just about the only die-hards who are still trying to pretend that the embarrassing details of their history are in any way controversial. It’s quite a tribute to their tenacity that Wikipedia and other media outlets can’t mention the reliable published sources that are used in most college classrooms without provoking the Zionist gatekeepers and edit warriors.

      I notice that CAMERA and StandWithUs never demand a retraction or correction from their own self-confessed war criminals. For instance:

      100-Year-Old General: We Razed Arab Villages, So What?
      Brig. Gen. (res.) Yitzhak Pundak:oarl If we hadn’t done it, there would be a million more Arabs and there would be no Israel. — link to israelnationalnews.com

      The government of Israel even promoted this piece of human filth:

      100-Year-Old Becomes Israeli Major-General: 100-year-old finally gets rank of “Major General” that he earned 60 years ago.

      Nearly 60 years later, Pundak sat flanked by Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon and IDF Chief of Staff Benny Gantz and finally received the long-awaited rank. He was the first person in Israeli history to be raised to the rank of Major-General after retirement. — link to israelnationalnews.com

      Gen. Pundak: Kill 500 in Gaza and They’ll be Quiet: Newly promoted 100-year old general who was Gaza Governor supplies his formula for peace.
      link to israelnationalnews.com

      • Shingo
        September 7, 2013, 12:51 pm

        Hostage,

        I heard somewhere that after declassifying these documents, and making the available to the new historians, the Israeli goverrnt reclassified them.

        That as well as the million dovrnts still due to be declassified that Bibbi ordered to remain classified (rather than be declassified ) on the grounds that their publication would threaten Israel’s national security.

  22. Kathleen
    September 7, 2013, 8:16 pm

    And for this deal the U.S. has to strike Syria and next Iran if Clinton gets in.

    • James Canning
      September 8, 2013, 1:50 pm

      Meaning, Netanyahu wants US war with Iran in order to scr*w the Palestinians in the West Bank? Seems highly likely.

  23. Hostage
    September 8, 2013, 3:02 am

    Hostage,

    I heard somewhere that after declassifying these documents, and making the available to the new historians, the Israeli goverrnt reclassified them.

    The 30 year schedule requires a review, but doesn’t lead to automatic declassification in any case. Some documents remained classified. The Netanyahu regime abandoned the 30 year schedule altogether and is keeping documents concerning the 48 and 67 wars confidential.

  24. yonah fredman
    September 8, 2013, 5:57 am

    The Netanyahu government has registered a complaint in Washington against the leak of this proposal by someone in the administration negotiating team.

    • just
      September 8, 2013, 7:40 am

      “Jerusalem lodged a strong protest with Washington during the long holiday weekend over what Israelis say were numerous media leaks by Palestinian figures from the peace talks. An Israeli official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the prime minister’s envoy to the talks, Isaac Molho, called his U.S. counterpart Martin Indyk and complained that the leaks “violated all the agreements” Israel and the Palestinians had made with U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry.

      When the peace talks were launched, in Washington in late July, both parties promised not to report the contents, or even the dates, of their meetings to the media. It was agreed that only the United States would speak to representatives of the media about the negotiations. ”

      link to haaretz.com

      Oh well. My hope is that this complaint falls on deaf ears.

      Perhaps Netanyahu should realize that this “proposal” is garbage, and that sunlight on his nefarious and disingenuous planning for peace is most necessary. The US has kept the world in the dark wrt the “negotiations”. The truth needs to come out– otherwise the Palestinians and the US are wasting our time/money/effort and so much more on continued and legendary intransigence by Israel.

      Worse still, the Palestinians lose even and ever more with this charade being kept in the shadows. Israel does not want the world to know the truth– the very ugly truth.

      • piotr
        September 8, 2013, 9:16 am

        The idea of secret negotiations is another case of our Establishment literally chasing its own tales and latching to concepts that are self-contradictory. Here: a secret peace process which is conducted merely for a show. Something has to give!

        Just a weak earlier both Israeli and Americans breached the “secrecy” of dates and places of meetings to deny the rumors that a meeting was cancelled in the aftermath of the killings in Qalandia. Concerning the secrecy of the positions of both sides, Kerry announced that prior to negotiations he collected position papers from both sides and it was disclosed that the pressed hard both sides to be “reasonable” thus assuring that the negotiations would start with reasonable chances for conclusion. Now we know how reasonable they were.

        To me, it is clear that whatever government will be there in Israel, they will stake a “maximalist” position and then they will not relent until they are visibly pressed by Americans. If nothing else, they have to explain to Jewish Israeli public why they agreed to “concessions” — including the voters of “right of center” parties. Thus a peace cannot be concluded without some degree of theatrics, including AIPAC screaming bloody murder. So far, so good. Where the process is broken is that American government does not behave like a responsible adult explaining “no, Moshele, you cannot get the entire cake and you must eat your veggies”.

  25. German Lefty
    September 8, 2013, 10:10 am

    Finally, Corey chose to ask one of my questions:
    People ask Israeli Jews questions. I go out and ask random people to answer. Clyde from the USA asks: “Why do Israelis treat the Palestinians the way the Nazis treated the Jews?” and Dorothea from Germany asks: “What do Israelis think about the parallels drawn between Zionism and Nazism?”

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