As Kerry scrambles to prevent Palestinian action at UN, Israeli govt makes clear it will never accept Palestinian state

Israel/Palestine
on 69 Comments

Palestinians leaders will likely table a United Nations Security Council resolution calling for an Israeli deadline to set borders based on the pre-June 1967 line until after fall mid-term elections in the United States. Haartez’s Barak Ravid reports this week that while Palestinians have stalled, Secretary of State John Kerry is trying to prevent the initiative all together. As a last-ditch effort to stop the Palestinian plan, Kerry has sought to reprise his direct talks that collapsed earlier this year. Israeli officials abandoned that effort after the announcement of a Palestinian unity government and there are no signs they are interested in restarting talks.

Speaking with an unnamed senior Israeli source, Ravid revealed Kerry has lobbied Netanyahu for the past month to go back to the American sponsored negotiations to no avail. Kerry’s plan would amount to another round of talks to establish a framework for discussions, but no meetings on the substance of final status issues: borders, Jerusalem, refugees and water sharing. Ravid is pessimistic that Kerry can achieve what would amount to a breakthrough:

Despite all Kerry’s efforts, his chances of success are slim to none. He may be the last person in the U.S. administration who still believes it’s possible to restart the negotiations. His burning faith has led him to say things that are surprising and even embarrassing.

While Kerry begs Israel to return to the table Palestinian officials say Kerry has yet to approach them. “There was no offer, because he has nothing to offer. Israel gave him nothing,” said PLO Central Committee member Dr. Mustafa Barghouti to Mondoweiss, continuing, “The decision is done. The Palestinians will go to the United Nations Security Council. If we get vetoed, to which is 99.9 % sure, Palestinians will [then] join all UN agencies.”

Though, Dr. Barghouti did say that as “a favor to the Democratic Party” Palestinians conceded to push back their earlier deadline to file the Security Council resolution originally slated for late October. When asked for a specific date, Dr. Barghouti coolly said, “maybe November 5th.”

Dr. Barghouthi also confirmed that Kerry did make an informal request directly to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, but has not made a specific alternative to the Security Council resolution. This is likely because Kerry has been unable to get Israeli officials to budge. And so without a better scheme from Tel Aviv by way of Washington, Palestinians will move forward to sanction Israel at the United Nations.

Ravid’s reporting backs up this theory. His Israeli sources say the prime minister is not interested in talking to Abbas. And yesterday Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon reiterated that Israel has no intent in seeing a sovereign Palestinian state, ever. “We need to free ourselves of the notion that everything boils down to only one option called a Palestinian state,” said Ya’alon to Yisrael HaYom, concluding, “I am not looking for a solution, I am looking for a way to manage the conflict and maintain relations in a way that works for our interests.”

But even if they were presented with a silver-plated offer from Israel, Palestinians say they won’t talk to Israel unless there are commitments to end the occupation. “We’re are not going back to negotiations unless there is some change in the rules to discuss the borders first,” said Fatah Central Committee member Dr. Nabil Shaath. “To continue to negotiate while the Israelis are eating up land is like suicide,” he said.

“Let’s be open here. There’s no time for negotiations anymore,” added Dr. Barghouti, concluding, “it’s over.”

Palestinians are thought to have seven confirmed votes in support of their UN resolution, but Dr. Barghouti thinks they may have as many as nine, with France joining in as an unlikely supporter. Still what actually will be included in this proposal remains unclear. Weeks ago when the PLO announced they would seek a UN resolution at the UN General Assembly, Palestinian leaders told me that they had written a draft of the document in coordination with the Arab League and would set a three-month deadline for Israel to declare borders based on the pre-June 1967 lines. Then Israel would have up to three years to implement the plan or else Palestine would accede to the Rome Statute by joining the International Criminal Court.

But when I spoke with Palestinian officials this week, the text of the resolution seemed more vague. Dr. Barghouti wouldn’t say if the resolution would include language about land swaps, an issue that could make or break Palestinian territorial continuity in the West Bank and render the PLO’s resolution as carved up as Kerry’s failed proposal.

About Allison Deger

Allison Deger is the Assistant Editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow her on twitter at @allissoncd.

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69 Responses

  1. eljay
    October 17, 2014, 10:02 am

    >> And yesterday Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon reiterated that Israel have no intent in seeing a sovereign Palestinian state, ever. “We need to free ourselves of the notion that everything boils down to only one option called a Palestinian state,” said Ya’alon to Yisrael HaYom, concluding, “I am not looking for a solution, I am looking for a way to manage the conflict and maintain relations in a way that works for our interests.”

    The Palestinians have no partner for peace. Well, that’s not exactly true: If they’re willing to accept subservience, to leave Palestine or to die, Palestinians have a partner for “peace”.

    What the Palestinians do not have is a partner for justice, accountability and equality.

    • Annie Robbins
      October 17, 2014, 10:06 am

      What the Palestinians do not have is a partner for justice, accountability and equality.

      sure they do, they have us

  2. eljay
    October 17, 2014, 10:27 am

    >> Annie Robbins: sure they do, they have us

    Well, then, let’s hope we are enough. :-)

    Perhaps what I should have said was: What the Palestinians do not have with Israel is a partner for justice, accountability and equality.

  3. Boomer
    October 17, 2014, 10:29 am

    So sad to see my own government acting this way.

    • Horizontal
      October 18, 2014, 12:55 pm

      So sad to see my own government acting this way.

      And anytime anyone asks about it, we get the same meaningless crap about the “special relationship” and “shoulder to shoulder” and “strong ally” and “region’s only democracy,” all untrue, and all meant to end the discussion right there. Everyone’s reading off the same short script. This is true whether the person saying it is a republican or a democrat, liberal or conservative. I can’t think of any other single issue where this bizarre response holds true.

      Someone has our representatives on a very short leash, and that, as you say, is sad indeed.

    • bilal a
      October 19, 2014, 9:03 am

      “my own government”
      that’s insane:

      MALCOLM X:”THE HOUSE NEGRO AND THE FIELD NEGRO”:SPEECH TO SNCC WORKERS,SELMA, ALABAMA,FEB.4,1965

      “I’m a field Negro. The masses are the field Negroes. When they see this man’s house on fire, you don’t hear these little Negroes talking about “our government is in trouble.” They say, “The government is in trouble.” Imagine a Negro: “Our government”! I even heard one say “our astronauts.” They won’t even let him near the plant — and “our astronauts”! “Our Navy” — that’s a Negro that’s out of his mind. That’s a Negro that’s out of his mind.”

      • Boomer
        October 30, 2014, 5:52 pm

        Malcolm told the truth. I guess about 99% of us are field negroes now.

  4. Bumblebye
    October 17, 2014, 10:30 am

    And Alon Ben Meir seems to want the world to resettle the refugees currently living in the West Bank and Gaza! Then Israel might resettle a few thousand of the others.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alon-benmeir/the-palestinian-refugees_b_5998212.html

  5. Dan Crowther
    October 17, 2014, 10:55 am

    Shouldn’t it be that they join the ICC first, and if after three months no borders are declared they take up the case? But, I suppose, if these clowns are still “doing favors to the Democratic Party” the level of seriousness ain’t that high.

  6. pabelmont
    October 17, 2014, 11:10 am

    Israel is NOT eating up the land (except, perhaps, where they have dumped toxic wastes and made the land effectively unusable).

    The Nov 5 initiative is an interesting one. It is not the only one that can be imagined. I’d propose another (which might be easier for UN members to agree to):

    Palestine should define a demand for minimum Israeli compliance with international law of occupation and ask the UNSC to confirm this demand in a resolution with compliance provisions (“teeth”). If I were drafting such a demand I’d set forth: [1] permanent removal of all settlers as residents or even as sojourners from OPTs (within 1 year); [2] destruction without rebuilding of the wall and all settlements within OPTs (2 years); [3] permanent lifting of the blockade of Gaza (immediate).

    And why not float both resolutions simultaneously? One to end the occupation and the other to make it “legal”. (Israel would react to the “legality” resolution much as if it were the other resolution, anyhow, IMO).

    But, of course, Palestinian diplomacy may well have floated both draft resolutions and decided which has the best chance of passage. we arm-chair diplomats don’t know everything, do we?

  7. Annie Robbins
    October 17, 2014, 11:21 am

    Palestinian leaders told me that they had written a draft of the document in coordination with the Arab League and would set a three-month deadline for Israel to declare borders based on the 1967 lines. Then Israel would have up to three years to implement the plan or else Palestine would accede to the Rome Statute by joining the International Criminal Court.

    But when I spoke with Palestinian officials this week, the text of the resolution seemed more vague. Dr. Bargouthi wouldn’t say if the resolution would include language about land swaps….

    yesterday American linked to a really good recent speech and Q&A with max blumenthal at the lannan foundation. http://media.lannan.org/podcasts/blumenthal-141010.mp3

    at some point, as i recall probably the Q&A at 2nd half, max referenced this resolution and said Abbas pulled it. (or did abbas table it for a later date?) does anyone know more about this? i’ve heard about the resolution a few times and then talk about it seemed to dissipate until allison’s article.

  8. a blah chick
    October 17, 2014, 11:40 am

    Dare I hope that the quisling administration based in Ramallah is finally getting fed up?

    I think that we are in a very dangerous time in the ME. Israel say with the non reaction to Operation Protect Genocide that they are on a ver long leash, and that’s assuming there’s a leash at all. They realize as never before that their die hard supporters will forgive or overlook anything they do. No matter how matter how violent or racist they behave they still have a good chunk of the elite media and government in their corner. There is NO pressure on them by the people who could make an immediate difference (I.e. USA) to change their ways.

    Like I said before Israel is like the addict who keeps getting a couch to sleep on and money from his parents. Until that country hits bottom there will be no significant chances. I hope I live long enough to see Zionism end up on the ash heap of historically failed doctrines. It has been a complete disaster for all concerned.

    • traintosiberia
      October 17, 2014, 9:53 pm

      No . The quisling gov is offering platitudes and vibes of revolution to stop a real one from the West Bank residents. The door mat will be washed and put back again on the doorstep.

  9. just
    October 17, 2014, 11:41 am

    Rock and a hard place.

    Yasser Arafat, Abu Mazen, Saeb Erekat, Hanan Ashrawi, and Dr.Mustafa Barghouti have dealt with intransigent and highly criminal US and Israel for most of their well-meaning lives.

    So have all Palestinians. I want the ICC to do its job, but pinning my hopes for justice with the ICC only prolongs suffering. Loud voices from the people of many nations will end the decades- long suffering first.

    • Marnie
      October 18, 2014, 4:02 am

      The US gov is so enmeshed with the GOI that when one has an itch, the other scratches. How in the world are Palestinians supposed to work with either group when they’re 2 sides of the same coin? There’s a great big old world out there (much to the suprise of israelis and apparently a large number of americans) and waiting for any good to come out of “talks” with John “Jumpin’ Jack Flash” Kerry is too much like waiting up to find Santa scooting down the chimney on x-mas eve.

      And the very good point made that the israeli’s have no intention whatever of allowing a separate Palestinian state (aka no Palestinians at all, anywhere in the region), and there isn’t anything anyone can (will) do about it.

      There are good people (here for example) that keep applying pressure, refuting lies and propaganda and putting the truth out there, but the people who hold the strings do nothing but watch the neverending horror show.

  10. HarryLaw
    October 17, 2014, 11:42 am

    Netanyahu said the West Bank must always have IDF in it, [never ending occupation] This was because of Israels “narrow waist” and because most of Israels population and economic infrastructure was concentrated in such a small area and vulnerable to short range home made missiles etc.
    In a paper “Defensible borders for a lasting peace” here.. http://www.defensibleborders.org/amidror.htm Maj-General Yaakov Amridror said.. just one mortar shell per week in the vicinity of Ben-Gurion International Airport will be enough to stop air transport completely. Without Israeli control of the relevant territory east of the 1967 line, there is no way the Israel Defense Forces can prevent such firing. Moreover, the introduction of shoulder-fired, anti-aircraft missiles in the hills dominating Ben-Gurion Airport would change the strategic equation completely. So strategic depth is required by Israel which can only be obtained according to these Generals, by Israels border being the Jordan river and the midway point of the Dead Sea. The Palestinians now know what they must do, I agree with Dan Crowther, apply to join the ICC and the UN Agencies together.

    • eljay
      October 18, 2014, 9:08 am

      >> HarryLaw: Netanyahu said the West Bank must always have IDF in it … This was because of Israels “narrow waist” …

      Despite years of warning from (legal) health experts, Israel has continued to expand its waistline, increasing its risk of (supremacist) heart disease and (existential) stroke.

      It’s only a matter of time before the wafer-thin mint is served.

  11. Bumblebye
    October 17, 2014, 12:00 pm

    I think the Palestinians should (in the face of Israeli intransigence) apply for statehood on the full 45% not declared as Israel back in ’48 – with agreed landswaps. Cause a diplomatic shockwave. Let the Israelis try to wriggle their way out of the simple fact that those are their only legitimate borders to date!

    • just
      October 17, 2014, 12:16 pm

      Totally agree Bumblebye.

      • Horizontal
        October 17, 2014, 12:34 pm

        +1 from me, too.

        The Zionists never intended to respect those UN borders anyway, and just used them to launch attacks on surrounding settlements. Israel’s respect for the UN seemed to begin and end on one day in 1948.

    • American
      October 17, 2014, 10:09 pm

      Ditto.
      Said that fr beginning.
      The UN DID define the boarders Israel just didnt ‘accept ‘ them.
      Those boarders are the only land that Isr can legally –if you could call it legal —-claim.
      Push them back in it.

  12. Horizontal
    October 17, 2014, 12:42 pm

    Regarding Kerry, what a sad spectacle he presents, kowtowing to someone like Netanyahu. I’m disgusted by the number of petty crooks, mass murderers, thieves, tyrants, warlords & opportunists that American leaders have stood next to with big grins plastered on their faces while offering handshakes of support.

    In Israel’s case, all because their supporters’ money somehow controls the political dialogue for the upcoming election; and there’s always one more upcoming election. How easily our democratic institutions are subverted to narrow & evil ends.

    This relationship is anything but special.

  13. amigo
    October 17, 2014, 12:51 pm

    This would be a perfect time for Hamas to renounce the part of their Charter that allegedly says they will drive Israel into the sea and kill all Jews.Make it public and then we can quit having to listen to zionist propaganda and turn attention to Israel Likud Charter.We should demand that Israel recognize a Palestinian State based on 67 borders with land swaps.

    Absent of a willingness to do that will be proof that Israel has never, will never be serious about allowing a State for the Palestinian People.

    Back the zionists against a wall as Palestinians go to the UN for recognition.

    I read today that Spain is next on the list to vote on a Palestinian State.One by one , the dominoes are falling.

  14. Kay24
    October 17, 2014, 12:59 pm

    When will our Congress and leaders have the courage to admit to themselves that Israel is NOT interested in any peace, or wants that blasted occupation to end? Everyone knows that they benefit from the status quo, and will never change that. Either leaders of the world’s greatest super power are too naive or simply going along with the charade until the occupier accomplishes it’s master plan. All the hand wringing, rebukes, and mild criticism at every arrogant statement announcing MORE illegal settlements by Israel, have now become a joke, and absolutely makes no impact on the criminals. They have become so brazen, they insult our President and the WH by making these announcements prior to any WH meeting.

    The Palestinians will only get the help they badly need, and their suffering would end, ONLY if the US is honest enough to tighten the screws on parasitic Israel, and stops the aids and flow of love and support. That will be a cold day in hell.

    • HarryLaw
      October 17, 2014, 2:09 pm

      I agree with you Kay24, unfortunately winning a US election trumps Palestinian rights, only when big corporate interests and especially big AIPAC are separated in a fundamental way from the funding of both the Democratic and Republican parties will things change, I’m not holding my breath.

  15. Bornajoo
    October 17, 2014, 2:27 pm

    I’m writing to the British mp’s who voted to recognise Palestine. I’m urging them to not allow the momentum to just fizzle out and reminding them that they must put constant and sustained pressure on their American colleagues. The USA holds the key to the whole issue. By supporting this evil zionist regime they are negating the effect of the remainder of world opinion, most of which supports the Palestinian cause.

  16. traintosiberia
    October 17, 2014, 2:29 pm

    Israel is saying what it always has desired from before its birth . No room for indigenous .in and around its expanding border less country birthed by force,blood,and unilateral Declaration of Independence .

  17. gracie fr
    October 17, 2014, 4:03 pm

    Diana Buttu, a former legal adviser for the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas believes the so-called “two-state solution” will not resolve the Palestine-Israel conflict, citing Israel’s ongoing construction of Jewish-only settlements on Arab land.

    “The two-state solution died a long time ago,” Diana Butto, a Palestinian-Canadian national, told Anadolu Agency in an exclusive interview. She said that a glance at a map of Palestine and the numerous Jewish-only settlements that have been built there made it clear to anyone that a “two-state” solution to the conflict was no longer viable.

    https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/14617-ex-plo-legal-adviser-says-two-state-solution-dead

    • Horizontal
      October 18, 2014, 1:10 pm

      The “two state solution” is now one of those empty but useful phrases, along with the classics “peace process” and “regional stability” that provide cover for doing absolutely nothing involving either solutions, peace or stability.

      Reminds me of when George Bush was confronted with global warming back in the day, and claimed that the issue was complex and needed “further study.” Nothing changed, but at least he could point to his group and claim, “See, we’re studying it,” while continuing the same policies that were polluting the environment.

  18. oldgeezer
    October 17, 2014, 4:08 pm

    I mentioned the defense ministers comments several days ago.

    Israel has no desire for peace.

    Frankly, I have reached and end point. I have boycotted Israeli products for several years. Not just settlement products. That made no sense to me.

    I am sure there are many decent Israelis, They are a minority.

    As the government, and the support for that government, shows the vast majority are truly criminal scum. No more interaction. No more trade. I will do without their wonderful medical innovations in the generic industry. The Chinese can make a rip off copy as well as Israel can. Granted Israel holds two drug patents. Both purchases. One of questionable legality according to the US Supreme Court.

    As a computer scientist by education and experience I understand how insignificant their contributions have been.

    No more. Not ever.

  19. MHughes976
    October 17, 2014, 4:13 pm

    I’ve often mentioned Richard Ben Cramer’s book, How Israel Lost, and its message that Israeli policy has all along been ‘to live without a solution’ – nothing changes, does it?

    • seafoid
      October 19, 2014, 11:47 pm

      They should never have signed up for Oslo. If you want to live without a solution, never ever raise unrealistic expectations.

      • MHughes976
        October 20, 2014, 12:11 pm

        Maybe it was not wise but it has been carried off with reasonable success, I suppose. Other fixed points include the Allon Plan – any arrangement must include Israeli strongpoints in any supposed Palestinian territory. I think it’s Diane Mason who’s been explaining this continuity from time to time. Another is the plain statement that Palestinians can have self-rule but not statehood – self-rule never ruling out, I suppose, gradual annexation of the territories in which the Palestinians have for a while survived. I remember that being a feature of the statements coming out of the negotiations between Begin and poor old Sadat ever so long ago. The latest statements are not much more than a repetition of these early ones, made not too long after the 67 war.

      • walktallhangloose
        October 21, 2014, 6:20 am

        “Palestinians can have self-rule but not statehood”.

        The idea is a decade older than you suggest. At the secret meeting in Sevres in 1956 in which Israel, Britain and France conspired to attack Egypt, Ben-Gurion came up with what he called a “fantastic plan”. Jordan would disappear, with the East Bank going to Iraq and the West Bank to Israel “as a semi-autonomous region”. Israel would also get southern Lebanon up to the Litani River.

      • MHughes976
        October 21, 2014, 5:29 pm

        Thanks walk…loose, very interesting.

  20. gracie fr
    October 17, 2014, 4:13 pm

    Tea Party congressman: Hamas terrorists might infect themselves with Ebola and sneak into U.S.

    (Right-wing South Carolina congressman takes Ebola fear-mongering to an even wackier level.)

    It would almost be funny if we could sincerely believe that a considerable number of Congressman Joe Wilson’s constituents along with other TeaParty/ Right Wing Conservative types will probably consider his announcement gospel truth……

    http://www.salon.com/2014/10/17/tea_party_congressman_hamas_might_infect_themselves_with_ebola_and_sneak_into_u_s/

    • gracie fr
      October 17, 2014, 4:15 pm

      …..Disbelieve…!!!

    • American
      October 17, 2014, 10:22 pm

      ” Congressman Joe Wilson ”

      OMG, !!!!!….I forgot about that idiot. He infuriated me to the point during the run up to the Iraq invasion and I wrote him a letter.
      Upset him so much he wrote me back a 2 page letter about his ‘beliefs and how he was a true patriot’ and I was wrong.
      Sending ebola into his voter base might not be a bad idea they are already the Walking Dead .

  21. Bornajoo
    October 17, 2014, 6:20 pm

    @just

    Thanks for posting the link. All their email addresses are available on a simple Google search. Most of them respond quickly and are appreciative of all messages of support, especially Alan Duncan. I have asked that they forward my email of support to any pro israel organisations who accuse them of being anti semitic. I’m British, Jewish and those pro israel groups don’t speak for me

  22. Bornajoo
    October 17, 2014, 6:25 pm

    @ Annie

    Thanks for the link to the article about Spain. This is good news and encouraging.

    Come on Spain!

  23. Mayhem
    October 17, 2014, 11:55 pm

    Pure opiniated drivel

    Israeli govt makes clear it will never accept Palestinian state

    This assertion in the title is not supported by one word in this article.

    • ASBizar
      October 18, 2014, 9:06 am

      For me this is enough
      Ravid’s reporting backs up this theory. His Israeli sources say the prime minister is not interested in talking to Abbas. And yesterday Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon reiterated that Israel has no intent in seeing a sovereign Palestinian state, ever. “We need to free ourselves of the notion that everything boils down to only one option called a Palestinian state,” said Ya’alon to Yisrael HaYom, concluding, “I am not looking for a solution, I am looking for a way to manage the conflict and maintain relations in a way that works for our interests.”

    • justicewillprevail
      October 18, 2014, 10:08 am

      You’re obviously not familiar with the statements of Bennet, Lieberman, Milikovsky or any one of the Knesset little bullies and frauds, then.

      • Horizontal
        October 18, 2014, 5:53 pm

        I think that if Israel ever did support a Palestinian State, it would be pretty much along the lines of France, say, circa 1941.

  24. walktallhangloose
    October 18, 2014, 10:43 am

    Allison, there was no armistice in 1967, only a cease-fire, so there is no 1967 armistice line. The line you are talking about is the 1949 armistice line, or Green Line, which is the de facto border of Israel (except with Jordan and Egypt where there are defined borders as a result of the peace treaties with those countries).

    And please, everyone, stop calling it the pre-1967 border. As the armistice agreements themselves make clear, it is NOT a border: “the Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary.” Nor did it move in 1967.

    Israel defined its borders on May 14, 1948 according to the Partition Plan. It cannot define them again, all it can do is agree changes with its neighbours. Israel asked for the Green Line to become its border in 1949, but there was no agreement. Palestine has said that it will now accept the Green Line as a basis for discussion of the West Bank border. What Palestine is waiting for is for Israel to make the first move in this negotiation.

    • Horizontal
      October 18, 2014, 1:13 pm

      Thanks for that information.

    • talknic
      October 18, 2014, 11:21 pm

      @ walktallhangloose

      “the 1949 armistice line, or Green Line, which is the de facto border of Israel “

      Israel has never legally annexed, nor has any country ever recognized as Israeli, any of the territory it has acquired by war between proclaiming its boundaries in its plea for recognition http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf and the signing of the 1949 Armistice Agreements.

      The Armistice Agreement between Israel and Lebanon states the Armistice Demarcation Line as being between Lebanon and “Palestine” BTW http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/arm02.asp#art5

      (except with Jordan and Egypt where there are defined borders as a result of the peace treaties with those countries)

      Not so. The Egyptian border was defined when Egypt gained statehood and confirmed when it gained independence., BEFORE Israel was proclaimed. Israel was required to withdraw from all territories sovereign to Egypt BEFORE peaceful relations were assumed. Egypt was agreed to withdraw from non-Israeli territory, leaving it under Israeli occupation. MORE @ http://wp.me/pDB7k-ZZ

      The Jordanian border reverted to its 1946 status, with Jordan relinquishing sovereignty over the West Bank (under Israeli occupation) to the PLO. In 1967 Jordan was a UN Member state and a High Contracting Power, therefore GC IV does apply to the West Bank . All other areas acquired by Israel by war by 1949 were.are covered by the Laws of War http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hague04.asp#art55 & UN Chapt XI http://pages.citebite.com/b1a3t9v7t7hyd under which Israel has a sacred trust as administrator and usufructuary.

      ” Israel asked for the Green Line to become its border in 1949, but there was no agreement.”
      Reference http://pages.citebite.com/u1p3a9x4x6qvk & rebuttal @ http://domino.un.org/pdfs/AAC25IS37.pdf

      ” Palestine has said that it will now accept the Green Line as a basis for discussion of the West Bank border”

      Reference http://pages.citebite.com/e9p5s8u2yhcd ( incredibly generous )

      ” What Palestine is waiting for is for Israel to make the first move in this negotiation.”

      Any PM who even looks like seriously making peace and thereby ending the Greater Israel project http://wp.me/pDB7k-l5 , will get the same treatment as Rabin.

      • Mooser
        October 19, 2014, 7:19 pm

        talknic, you have become (or maybe you were always) really, really good at that type of line-by-line avec links comment! Thanks!

  25. piotr
    October 18, 2014, 1:52 pm

    The short summary of American policy is that some fiction of negotiations should be maintained, but ultra-nationalistic GoI does not want them, so the Administration displays the sharpest arrow in its diplomatic quiver: “If you will not behave better, Mommy will be sad,” which is countered by domestic chorus of AIPAC-trained politicians, “how can you be so cruel!!”. So Mommy is forced to smile, and that drives Zios to conniptions, because the smile is not sincere enough.

    That may be OK, because the last remaining superpower can afford to be crazy and survive, but of course it has a price. When USA wants allies to behave “nicer”, say Saudis, Egypt, Turkey or new adorable pro-Western democrats in Ukraine, they take the cue.

  26. James Canning
    October 18, 2014, 2:27 pm

    Clearly the way forward is for all countries on the planet to recognize Palestine with its “1967” borders. Philip Stephens, writing in the Financial Times yesterday, noted that 134 countries now recognize Palestine.

    I would not be surprised if John Kerry comprehends full UN recognition of Palestine would be a good thing for Israel.

  27. piotr
    October 18, 2014, 5:24 pm

    To make clear what I meant by “Zios driven to conniption”, here is the description of adequate American diplomatic posture by Rabbi Shalom [whatever] from Atlanta. I pasted it from another page in Mondoweiss, but it deserves a separate quote.

    When the war began, the President of the United States, the leader of the Free World, should have immediately, instinctively invited to the Oval Office, the leading Democrats and Republicans of the Senate and the House, his cabinet and all significant Washington political players. Every domestic and international news organization should have been notified and the following talk broadcast across the planet. “Fellow Americans – a crisis has erupted once again in the Middle East and I have been told that the war between Israel and Hamas is complex and nuanced. I have been told that our great nation must be evenhanded- but I am here to say with no equivocation, with no hesitation, this war is not complex. This war is not nuanced and we will not be evenhanded in this confrontation of good and evil, of right and wrong, of civilization and savagery. We Democrats and Republicans, Liberals and Conservatives from sea to shining sea, stand together in unshakable support of Israel against foul, corrupt, murderers who sacrifice the lives of children in their pursuit of power. To Israel we say – do whatever you must. To Israel we say, take whatever time you need to crush this vile enemy and whatever you require, you can count on us. To the world we say, Israel is fighting for all of us – for our values, for our principles, for our civilization. Support her efforts, as we do, in every way possible. I will not tolerate any words of disparagement against our greatest ally and friend in the Middle East. God bless Israel and God bless the United States of America.”

    • Horizontal
      October 18, 2014, 5:33 pm

      I think the proper response to Rabbi Shalom’s screed is, “Oy vey!”

  28. 666
    October 19, 2014, 12:46 am

    so sad

  29. NickJOCW
    October 19, 2014, 7:05 am

    Is Kerry really scrambling to prevent Palestinian UN action, or is he just pretending to? Also, is the Palestinian stall the result of pressure from Kerry or could it be a pragmatic response to Sweden’s recent vote, so swiftly followed by the UK debate, and Spain, Ireland, and probably soon France stirring to move in the same direction. Each one of these national debates is widely covered and rehearses again and again Israel’s inhuman behaviour. Two days ago I caught an item on the Japanese news program, NHK, which included an interview with June Kunugi, UNICEF special representative in the State of Palestine, who was in Gaza both during and after the attacks, her account of the effect of the bloodbath on the children was scarcely to be watched. She described how they cling to their parents, shake if left alone, can’t go alone to the toilet, wet their beds, are totally traumatised and disorientated. Her account was given in a half screen with the other side showing film of devastated classrooms and hospitalised children with appalling wounds. A storm is brewing and in the few weeks of the stall how many more significant nations will have got off the fence and voted to recognise the State of Palestine.

  30. walktallhangloose
    October 19, 2014, 9:12 am

    Hello talknic, can you or anyone else please tell me how to include links in these comments?

    To take you remarks one paragraph at a time:

    1. I call the Green Line the de facto border because it is in effect the actual physical border
    and territory inside it is administered as if it were legally part of Israel (though it isn’t).

    2. The armistices with Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan were signed before Israel became a Member of the United Nations: until then the UN did not use the word ‘Israel’ in formal documents. It is not surprising that Lebanon should have followed the UN practice, and rather surprising that Egypt and Jordan should say that their agreement was with the State of Israel, if they did.

    3. My parenthesis was written in haste. What I should have said, and usually do, is that the sovereign borders of Israel have not changed since 14 May 1948, except perhaps for minor changes as a result of the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. Just a caveat. I will miss it out in future.

    4.,5.,6. Yes, and thanks for the links.

    7. I do not think that Netanyahu represents the Israeli people. There were a couple of surveys before the last election showing majority support for the two-state solution, but Israel ended up with an entirely right wind coalition, due to the vagaries of the rather strange electoral system, and the disarray of the left. I believe there is a possibility of a solution when sufficient pressure is put on Israel, and when Abbas stops talking tough but acting feeble, or is replaced with someone better.

    • Mooser
      October 19, 2014, 7:27 pm

      Hello talknic, can you or anyone else please tell me how to include links in these comments?

      Here is the formula:

      [ href=” web address you wish to link”] text you wish linked [/a]

      Use that form, using instead of [ and ] brackets (I used brackets so it wouldn’t turn into a link, and not be seem. Don’t forget the space before “href”.

      Here’s a tutorial on links: http://www.htmlgoodies.com/primers/html/article.php/3478171

      • Mooser
        October 19, 2014, 7:30 pm

        “using instead of”

        That was supposed to be using “>” and “<" signs

    • Annie Robbins
      October 19, 2014, 11:28 pm

      Hello talknic, can you or anyone else please tell me how to include links in these comments?

      the easiest way to add a link is simply to copy and paste any url (copy it from the top of the browser) directly into the comment and it will process automatically. like this (our home page http://mondoweiss.net/ )

      also, a new ‘feature’ (which sometimes drives me nuts) is that when you copy any text from mondoweiss more than about 3 or 4 words, it automatically adds the link next to it.

      but for an embed, the simplest way would be to scroll to the base of this page > > http://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/10/state-department-contractor-breaks-russian-visa-law-whines-when-caught.html#comments < < or ANY comment thread at the base of any article on that site and then look to the right side of the comment box at the base of the page. there are instructions for 5 html tags. bold, italic, underlined text, EMBEDS, and blockquotes. the example for the embeds is a link to ACLU. copy and paste that full instructional line. now replace the aclu url (between the quote marks leaving the quote marks and everything else in place) with whatever url you want to link to and then replace the wording “Link to ACLU” with whatever text you want to show up in print. but the easiest way is just to place the url right in the thread and our site automatically processes it.

      • walktallhangloose
        October 20, 2014, 4:59 am

        Thank you Annie: I tried copy and paste before but it did not seem to work – I think that may because I did not have a space before the URL – trying again now, this is a link to my website http://religion-science-peace.org.

    • talknic
      October 20, 2014, 11:58 am

      @ walktallhangloose
      ” how to include links in these comments?
      Right click – on the link you want to copy
      Copy – Link Location.
      Paste – into the comment, leaving a space before and after the link
      ——–
      “1. I call the Green Line the de facto border ..etc…”

      Understood

      “2. The armistices with Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan were signed before Israel became a Member of the United Nations: until then the UN did not use the word ‘Israel’ in formal documents.”

      Partially correct. The UN cannot directly censure non members (neither can a football or knitting club). They can only tell members how they should act towards non-members in keeping with the rules of the ‘club’

      “It is not surprising that Lebanon should have followed the UN practice, and rather surprising that Egypt and Jordan should say that their agreement was with the State of Israel, if they did.”

      They most certainly did. Non-members could/can/did/do negotiate agreements under the stewardship of the UN, wherein the name of the agreement/s carries the names of the parties. The title is sufficient to identify the parties throughout the agreement.

      Importantly, the agreements could/can/did/do refer to previous documents. The Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement refers to UNSC res 62 http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/scres062.asp
      It in turn refers to UNSC res 44 http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/scres044.asp
      Which in turn refers to UNGA res 181
      under which the Jewish state proclaimed its boundaries http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf and was subsequently recognized as requested, as the “State of Israel”

      Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949 http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/arm02.asp

      Preamble

      The Parties to the present Agreement,

      Responding to the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948,(2) http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/scres062.asp calling upon them, as a further provisional measure under Article 40 of the Charter of the United Nations and in order to facilitate the transition from the present truce to permanent peace in Palestine, to negotiate an armistice;

      Having decided to enter into negotiations under United Nations Chairmanship concerning the implementation of the Security Council resolution of 16 November 1948; and having appointed representatives empowered to negotiate and conclude an Armistice Agreement;

      The undersigned representatives, having exchanged their full powers found to be in good and proper form, have agreed upon the following provisions: etc etc

      The Armistices with Egypt, Syria, Jordan are similarly named and have similar references leading back to UNGA res 181.

      Aside from proclaiming its sovereign extent in the May 15th 1948 plea for recognition, the Israeli Government on May 22nd 1948 informed the UNSC that the war was being fought in “territories outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” http://pages.citebite.com/x1r0b4d1y6mkv as Israel had complete control of all of its territories.

      Added to which on the 31st August 1949 Israel officially tried to claim the “territories outside the State of Israel” … “in Palestine” it had acquired by war since 00:01 15th May 1948 (ME time) http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/fd807e46661e3689852570d00069e918/c96e0252e7710bce85256d95006bc157?OpenDocument The claim was rebuffed http://domino.un.org/pdfs/AAC25IS37.pdf

      Subsequently, there are no UNSC resolutions calling for peace “in Israel”

      “3. …… the sovereign borders of Israel have not changed since 14 May 1948, except perhaps for minor changes as a result of the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan. “

      There have only been two ‘independent sovereign’ border changes since Israel’s Declaration of the State of Israel took effect at 00:01 May 15th 1948 (ME time) http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

      Both those changes were to the border of Jordan. The West Bank as it is officially called, was legally annexed to Jordan at the request of the Palestinians http://www.jcpa.org.il/art/knesset6.htm

      Jordan’s annexation was as a trustee only at the insistence of the other Arab States (Session: 12-II Date: May 1950). http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/legsess.html It remained under Jordanian sovereignty until the signing of the Israeli/Jordan Peace Treaty, wherein Jordan relinquished its sovereignty over the West Bank to the PLO and Jordan’s border with Israel AND Palestine officially reverted to its 1946 status.

      When Israel took military control of the West Bank in 1967, it was a part of Jordan, a UN Member State and a High Contracting Power. GC IV applies as the UNSC has stated, many many times http://pages.citebite.com/t3b5c3x3v9er

      The sovereign borders of the Arab States & Israel haven’t legally changed since their respective independence. Only the Cease Fire and Armistice Demarcation Lines have changed.

      ” 7. …. I believe there is a possibility of a solution when sufficient pressure is put on Israel, and when Abbas stops talking tough but acting feeble, or is replaced with someone better.”

      As would any Palestinian leader Abbas must tread extremely carefully. Get it wrong in the ICC or UN and it doesn’t take a few days or weeks or months or even years to sort out. It takes decades and the Zionist Federation have had more than a hundred years honing the skill of ‘keeping the ball in the air’.

      Meanwhile, they will keep on making more and more illegal ‘facts on the ground’, purposefully creating a situation that makes reversal as difficult and as complex as they possibly can. There is only one Zionist goal, to have control of ‘the’ ultimate ‘relic’.

  31. seafoid
    October 19, 2014, 11:45 pm

    “There’s no time for negotiations anymore,” added Dr. Barghouti, concluding, “it’s over ”

    It sounds better in Arabic- Khalaas, ya’ni

  32. Jabberwocky
    October 20, 2014, 9:27 am

    Destroy the wall, but why destroy the ‘settlements’, just remove the settlers and let the Palestinians use the properties. After all the US effectively paid for them all!

    • talknic
      October 21, 2014, 6:53 am

      @ Jabberwocky “Destroy the wall, but why destroy the ‘settlements’, just remove the settlers and let the Palestinians use the properties. “

      Destroy the separation barrier indeed. As to the settlements, they’re cheap, ghastly, Western money making architectural eyesores, imposed most un=naturally on the landscape like huge overbearing fortresses. Would any Palestinian want to live in an ugly reminder of over 100 years of Zionist colonization?

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