The Jewish revolution

US Politics
on 110 Comments

In the last week there have been four momentous events in the Jewish political world, two of them soul-crushing, two of them uplifting. I say momentous because the two uplifting events signal a major change in Jewish political culture that is likely to leave many of us speechless in months and years to come, and that represents a revolution in definition of community.

First, the two deadly events. A week ago AIPAC, the leading Israel lobby organization, held its annual conference in Washington, and never has US politics seen such a sumptuous procession of rusty musty cadavers trooping across a stage with so many scripted lines. Even Republican conventions look bacchanalian by comparison to this staged obeisance to wealth. Not a word was out of place. Donald Trump was cheered; his surrogate Nikki Haley was bathed in love. AIPAC shut its doors to any possible critics and even the journalists who got in complained that the most interesting sessions were off the record. The conference sought to signal to political Washington that sanctifying Israel remains a bipartisan project; Nancy Pelosi cooperated by saying that the US aid to Israel is “sacred… sacred.”

The decadence of the affair, the sense that all this could crumble in a second, was evident in the biggest news out of the event: Israeli strongman Benjamin Netanyahu is apparently dyeing his hair.

A few days after the conference, the mainstream organization that is trying to muscle AIPAC offstage as being unrepresentative of the American Jewish community — J Street, which loves Israel but does so critically — shot itself in the foot when its youth branch, J Street U, joined a rightwing conference against BDS, the Boycott campaign aimed at Israel. J Street did so with the faith that its adherence to Zionism could resolve its fierce opposition to the Israeli occupation with all the rightwing organizers that can’t get enough of occupation; but J Street judged wrong. Its Zionism cut no ice. Its idealistic young representatives were smeared as anti-Semites, and J Street has been trying to cover its ass ever since for breaking bread with Netanyahu-loving, Islamophobic, Trumpist, intolerants.

Why did it go in the first place? The message to all young idealistic people was clear: J Street is afraid of the progressive camp, because progressives are increasingly anti-Zionist. But in the era of Trump, progressives are the only game in town. Hmmm, who can lead?!

Those were the soulcrushers. Now for the Vivaldi.

A week ago the young Jewish resistance movement IfNotNow demonstrated at the AIPAC conference, and hundreds of young Jews came to see a speech by Cornel West and a chained-arms action at the gates of the conference in opposition to the occupation. The fact that the biggest news from the demonstration was the beating of a Palestinian teacher by the Jewish Defense League, the troglodytes who felt called to oppose the demo, only highlighted the purity and innocence of this movement.

As the occupation enters its 50th year, we are reclaiming our Jewish values by taking action to support freedom and dignity for all. And we will do this in bold and beautiful ways, rooted in Jewish Resistance. We will be the leaders that the establishment refuses to be.

They want to lead! The signal element of IfNotNow is their complete and utter loss of faith in the older generation because it gave us the occupation and Trump. They are not taking any instruction from their elders. They are trying to find their own way, Jewishly; and this has so far meant an openness to anti-Zionists, if not a rejection of the idea of a Jewish state.

The last event was the Jewish Voice for Peace conference I just attended in Chicago. A thousand people were there, and all of them intentionally (AIPAC papers its hall with donations from the cadavers); and the spontaneous liberations of the event were often staggering. Music in the halls; a striptease for BDS; prayer and yoga in the morning; ceaseless invocations of the intersectionality of fighting white supremacy in the U.S. and Jewish supremacy in Israel and Palestine; a roster of speakers that was itself a challenge to the white Ashkenazi male rosters that dominate other Jewish communal gatherings; and most important for me, an unblinkered view of the dangers of Zionism for Jews and Palestinians (and Americans too, BTW). The theme of the conference was All In; and there was huge applause when Stefanie Fox said that JVP was undertaking a review of its position on Zionism, a signal that the organization will adopt a strongly anti-Zionist stance in the months to come. (It has kept the door open to liberal Zionists through the years by not being too harsh on Zionism.)

Anti-Zionist son & mom team at Jewish Voice for Peace conference — Max Geller & Marjorie Suisman

Zionism is “not about the protection of Jews but the protection of a violent state,” Fox said, and at that moment I noticed Cindy and Craig Corrie sitting a few seats away, with their habitual grace. Honoring Rachel; patiently awaiting even a gesture of justice.

The IfNotNow demonstration and the JVP conference are momentous because they are so independent of one another, so completely unorchestrated (as opposed to the soulcrushing events). They show deep stirrings inside the Jewish community in defiance of older donors, and a desperate need on the part of Jews for a universalist language and message to overcome the damage of Zionism, and Trump too. These Jews are choosing intersectionality as a vehicle to smash the “What’s-good-for-the-Jews” ethos of their parents and grandparents; they are making alliances with people of color and Muslims and other marginalized communities to break up unjust orders here and in Israel too. While I see myself as a liberal, and am uncomfortable with identity politics, I’m putting my own p-o-v to the side here, to point out the political ramifications of what I witnessed.

We must all recognize Trump’s disruptive power. He has radicalized a large segment of blue state progressives. That radicalization is accelerated inside the Jewish community, by the undeniable evidence of apartheid and proto-fascism in Netanyahu’s Israel. Even centrist Zionists in the Jewish establishment are quietly ashamed and hopeless these days. And something huge has been unleashed in the next generation. Call it utopian or prophetic, but there’s no going back: these forces are sure to convulse the Jewish community ala other countercultural upheavals in American history. Alan Solow (who is the Jewish establishment personified) even said so at J Street last month when he predicted that the 50th anniversary of the occupation was potentially explosive inside Jewish life.

Seven years ago Peter Beinart wrote his piece “The Failure of the American Jewish Establishment,” and the Jewish establishment didn’t catch a clue and change. J Street tried to organize an army of young people behind Beinart, but it was t-shirts not a movement; there was never a prophetic energy, the leaders couldn’t offer a transcendent or idealistic message. Beinart himself rationalized Israeli discrimination against Palestinians. But young people who believe however naively in their ability to remake the world on new terms cannot accept such a reservation, certainly not in this intersectional age, when minority communities are granted such moral authority.

When I asked Ethan Miller of IfNotNow why intersectionality is important to his group, his answer made the point: Israel has corrupted everything in Jewish life. Miller wrote:

We’ve found that many Jewish institutions use their support for the occupation as excuses for not taking the bold, moral stances that our time demands. Take the Movement for Black Lives policy platform as an example. Jewish institutions who often raise up their history of working on civil rights issues all of a sudden were condemning this groundbreaking platform because it included a criticism of the Israeli government and the occupation.

We know that many Jewish organizations’ unwillingness to directly and explicitly oppose many actions of the Trump administration (such as the appointment of Steve Bannon) comes from their desire to maintain a close relationship and ensure the administration’s continued support for the occupation. We can’t let them continue to sell so many threatened communities down the river for the sake of their pro-Israel at any cost politics.

Beinart also warned that if Israel fails, the Jewish community will be tromping through the rubble for generations ala the momentous failure of Shabbtai Zvi in the 16th century; for this failure implicates an edifice of thinkers, journalists, leaders, activists, university presidents, financiers, movie execs, and CEOs too, all of whom bought in.

That is happening right now. The project of the one-and-only Jewish state has failed inasmuch as it has not become the light unto the world it kept promising it would be. This is obvious to anyone who saw the racial beating outside AIPAC, to silence from the Jewish establishment, or who sees Israel’s latest settlement announcement in the wake of the UN Security Council making clear that settlements are a “flagrant violation” of international law. For a long time, anti-Zionists were lonely voices in the wilderness. No longer. Taking a critical position on Zionism is the only cool/interesting/generative place for intelligent young people to be; and they are willing to sacrifice a lot to be there. The suspense now is just what that revolution will produce, in Jewish and American life.

About Philip Weiss

Philip Weiss is Founder and Co-Editor of Mondoweiss.net.

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110 Responses

  1. CitizenC
    April 3, 2017, 4:19 pm

    Beinart also warned that if Israel fails, the Jewish community will be tromping through the rubble for generations ala the momentous failure of Shabbtai Zvi in the 16th century; for this failure implicates an edifice of thinkers …. et al

    The problem is not worship of the state, but of its underlying concept, The Jewish People, a race fantasy, as Shlomo Sand showed in his books and just summarized in Le Monde Diplo, as noted in another Mondo article

    The “Jewish revolution” is certainly not groups like JVP and IfNotNow, with their minimal, philo-Semitic critique, who aspire to be the next Jewish establishment. The needed revolution is tantamount to a second emancipation from “Jewishness” as the ontological basis of existence, let alone politics. It is rediscovering the secularism and liberalism of the modern world.

    “Jewishness” not the Jewish state, is the misguided, Shabbtain obsession, and the needed shattering is regaining perspective, relegating it to an aspect of one’s background, instead of social ontology.

  2. JeffB
    April 3, 2017, 4:22 pm

    @Phil

    J Street, which loves Israel but does so critically — shot itself in the foot when its youth branch, J Street U, joined a rightwing conference against BDS, the Boycott campaign aimed at Israel. J Street did so with the faith that its adherence to Zionism could resolve its fierce opposition to the Israeli occupation with all the rightwing organizers that can’t get enough of occupation; but J Street judged wrong. Its Zionism cut no ice. Its idealistic young representatives were smeared as anti-Semites, and J Street has been trying to cover its ass ever since for breaking bread with Netanyahu-loving, Islamophobic, Trumpist, intolerants.

    Phil. I was there, I saw it. Nothing that dramatic happened. JStreetU kids went to what was essentially a Republican Jewish convention hosted by Danny Danon and staring Nikki Haley. The crowd was probably 90% Republican. Centrist Democrats all felt the crowd and most speakers were a bit too far right and out of touch; including myself BTW and some of the other middle aged center leftists I chatted with. There were however speakers on the list who were just as leftwing as the JStreetU kids. There was no broad rejection.

    JStreetUers were listened to and they were seen as “part of the team”. Yes there were people who don’t like any Democrats. Yes a pro-Zionist Mormon made an off color comment to them. All this drama everyone is writing about didn’t happen. Where they were most offended were not comments made about them but comments made by Republicans reflecting normative Republican views, like comparing the UN to the KKK.

    Who is J-Street supposedly having to cover their ass with? They are an Israeli lobby. Of course if the Israeli ambassador hosts an event with thousands of attendees (potential donors and members) along with the US ambassador they are going to be there, that’s their job.

    But in the era of Trump, progressives are the only game in town.

    Huh? Last I checked Trump is having problems with traditional conservatives, moderate Republicans, moderate Democrats, most minorities, business lobbies. In the era of Trump there are more games than normal in town.

    These Jews [JVP and INN] are choosing intersectionality as a vehicle to smash the “What’s-good-for-the-Jews” ethos of their parents and grandparents

    Does INN even allow for non-Jewish members? They certainly don’t seem welcoming to non-Jews. They certainly don’t coordinate with other groups or allow for mixed demonstrations. How is INN choosing intersectionality? I think you are seeing what you want to see.

    Beinart also warned that if Israel fails, the Jewish community will be tromping through the rubble for generations ala the momentous failure of Shabbtai Zvi

    Shabbtai Zvi was trivial in comparison to Israel. If Israel fails there won’t be a Jewish community or meaningful size. We’ll join Odin worshippers, the cult of ISIS or Cybele cults as dead religions. Game over, history moves on. Israel was the plan-B there is no plan-C.

    The project of the one-and-only Jewish state has failed inasmuch as it has not become the light unto the world it kept promising it would be

    Are you so sure? Seems to me a little horrifically mistreated minority in one century becoming something like the 30th largest economy, the 15th most powerful military and a European standard of living in the middle east ain’t so bad. I suspect many of the worlds groups suffering under tyrannies of larger more dominant groups look to Israel as a light of hope.

    But even if that’s not true. Even if all Israel is or ever will be is just a pretty good place for Jews to live by right, not some temporary gift dependent on the whims of Christians… that’s a huge success not a failure.

    As for the moribund conference. The AIPAC conference had to charge up to $600 each to keep people below the 20k the venue could handle.

    If it were free / cheap, recruiting and in a cheaper location like Vegas they might be able to do 100k. JStreet did 3500. Anti-BDS was about 2500 including about 1000 under 25 years old. The JVP conference was about 1000. The Israeli day parade in NYC next month will have 30k marchers and about 2.5m in person watchers. I wouldn’t be declaring victory yet.

    • JeffB
      April 3, 2017, 4:39 pm

      Just to throw in a correction. I rechecked the numbers. 2.5m is all celebrate Israel parades in all American cities not just New York. The 30k participants is correct.

    • Mooser
      April 3, 2017, 6:18 pm

      “If Israel fails there won’t be a Jewish community or meaningful size.”

      Really? How will the failure of Israel affect American Judaism? Will it make it impossible for us to worship? Incapable of fulfilling our religious obligations?
      You seem to manage in the US, “JeffB”. Would you stop being Jewish if there was no Israel?

      • JeffB
        April 3, 2017, 8:03 pm

        @Mooser

        If we trace the start of the fall of Judaea to the Macabees the last time Judaism was defeated like that the religion completely changed. The sacrificial cult died, the magical cults died. A nihilistic variant of Judaism, Gnostic Judaism, often reversing the meaning and teachings of the scriptures became popular and cut off most of the marginal members to become Christians. For many of the 2nd century sects, procreation became sin. After Yahweh’s defeat by Jupiter why bring a Jewish child to life? Eventually things leveled out and the Pharisaic sect forked off to become the Rabbinic Judaism of the middle ages. But that had very little in common with the religions that existed before it. Judaism of 160 BCE didn’t survive. The loss would be much worse.

        As far as American Judaism, in a situation where Israel has fallen most likely the USA has turned against Israel. American Jews, would have been a 3rd column, they were probably pushed out or killed a generation earlier. But even if one imagines some fragment continuing to exist in the USA, the entire messianic promise of Judaism is gone. Judaism will have proven to be fake and a fraud. What would be the point of the religion anymore? There never is going to be a national salvation. Judaism offers nothing but sorrow. Why would anyone care about fulfilling religious obligations or worshipping a fake lying god?

        There is no Judaism anymore without Israel.

      • echinococcus
        April 3, 2017, 8:08 pm

        Very accurate diagnosis, Doctor Mooser. Impressive.

        You seem to manage in the US, “JeffB”. Would you stop being Jewish if there was no Israel?

        Of course he would lose that! The American Zionist’s wholly pseudo-racial fake identity is only supported by the existence of an illegitimate pirate state over there on the Palestinians’ territory. He has no religion, his parents consciously destroyed his hereditary culture and language; the American Zionist was taught to hate and reject everything that makes up our common American identity. He feels he only has a place in this world as a propaganda agent, if not worse, of the Zionist pirate state.

      • Mooser
        April 4, 2017, 11:28 am

        “There never is going to be a national salvation. Judaism offers nothing but sorrow. Why would anyone care about fulfilling religious obligations or worshipping a fake lying god?

        There is no Judaism anymore without Israel.”

        Wow, what sophisticated reasoning, “JeffB”. The only reason to engage Judaism is if you get something, and lots, for doing it.
        And if all you get for being Jewish is being a Jew, that’s the result of a “fake lying God”.

        That type of reasoning, when espoused by 2 billion Jews, should vault Judaism into a front-rank political and religious power! Only the largest nations will be able to resist us at all!

      • Mooser
        April 4, 2017, 11:40 am

        “Of course he would lose that!”

        Well, I guess some people know what Jewish history was supposed to be like, they are keenly aware of where God fell down on His promises to us.
        Have they forgotten the Scripture verse (wait a sec, it’s right here on my middy-blouse) about “nothing but blood sweat and tears”?

      • eljay
        April 4, 2017, 12:17 pm

        || JeffB: … As far as American Judaism, in a situation where Israel has fallen … even if one imagines some fragment continuing to exist in the USA, the entire messianic promise of Judaism is gone. Judaism will have proven to be fake and a fraud. What would be the point of the religion anymore? There never is going to be a national salvation. Judaism offers nothing but sorrow. Why would anyone care about fulfilling religious obligations or worshipping a fake lying god? There is no Judaism anymore without Israel. ||

        The fall of “Jewish State” Israel doesn’t invalidate Judaism, it invalidates the bogus Zionist claim that “Jewish State” Israel is the “messianic promise” come true.

        Judaism can exist without the Golden Calf of “Jewish State” Israel; the Calf cannot exist without Judaism.

        The only fakes, frauds and liars in this story are Zionists.

      • Mooser
        April 4, 2017, 12:39 pm

        “There is no Judaism anymore without Israel.”

        Fascinating, “JeffyB”! Is this reasoning a prominent trend in Jewish theology today?
        Which Rabbis orJewish religious thinkers helped you to reach these conclusions? A cite or two would be nice.

      • RoHa
        April 5, 2017, 3:35 am

        From Donne, via Byron, to your middy-blouse.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 12:55 pm

        “From Donne, via Byron, to your middy-blouse.”

        You keep that Lord Byron away from my middy-blouse. I’ve heard about him.

    • broadside
      April 3, 2017, 6:52 pm

      “If Israel fails….”

      It has failed. Spectacularly. The day after the world, yet again (if not the NYT), declared Jewish settlements a “flagrant violation of international law,” Netanyahu announced the building of thousands more settler units. Israel’s loud and clear message to the world: we don’t care what you think. For as long as the 535 most cowardly Americans are what the rest of the country calls Congress; for as long as Jewish campaign contributions are to the American political system what coal was to the Mauretania, we can do whatever we want. And will.

      Was that your idea of what a successful Israel would look like? I’d call it utter failure. I’d call it a black light. W a poster of Ozzy Osbourne on the wall, biting off the head of a chicken.

      As for 2.5 million in Israel parades in all American cities — in your dreams, pal.

      But then ….

      • JeffB
        April 3, 2017, 8:09 pm

        @Broadside

        I can’t really follow your argument. Israel has failed because the UN disagrees with something Israel is doing? Huh? That doesn’t even make sense. The UN disagrees with the USA all the time. So what?

        Was that your idea of what a successful Israel would look like?

        I’m not old enough to know of a pre-Israel. So I can’t answer your question directly. The Israel I see is a pretty spectacular country. Not perfect, but a really exciting, diverse wonderful place to live. The Israel that exists with its health GDP growth, vibrant culture rich overlays of cuisine… is far better than what a minimally successful Israel would look like. I love what I see. I think the strengths outweigh the imperfections 20-1.

      • talknic
        April 3, 2017, 10:41 pm

        Hilariously funny watching someone play stupid. Especially when they’re already too stupid to realize how transparent their nonsense is

        @JeffB April 3, 2017, 8:09 pm
        “Israel has failed because the UN disagrees with something Israel is doing?”

        No. Israel has failed because what Israel is and has been doing in non-Israeli territories is illegal. Israel has failed to adhere to the law. Failed to even uphold the basic tenets of Judaism.

        ” Huh? That doesn’t even make sense. “

        To an idiot for Zionist colonization of course it doesn’t. You’re not allowed for it to make sense. Your job is to spread bullsh*t and act stupid even tho it makes you look completely and utterly moronic, heartless and very very sick

        “The UN disagrees with the USA all the time. So what?”

        So, two wrongs don’t make a right and so it doesn’t alter the illegality of Israel’s actions in non-Israeli territories.

        “I’m not old enough to know of a pre-Israel.”

        Must be very young and extremely clever to be so young and yet able to use a computer, make up bullsh*t, spend time on a discussion board defending the indefensible but not be able to read historical documents easily read by anyone with an internet connection . Here, try for once http://wp.me/PDB7k-Y plenty to choose from, all verifiable. Or do you lose pay if you read anything factual?

        “The Israel I see is a pretty spectacular country. Not perfect, but a really exciting, diverse wonderful place to live”

        So you live in the USA. AMAZING! Well that’s just great. Now how about Israel f*ck off out of ALL the non-Israeli territories it has acquired by war since proclaiming its borders in order to be recognized. Never been tried.

        “The Israel that exists with its health GDP growth, vibrant culture rich overlays of cuisine… is far better than what a minimally successful Israel would look like. I love what I see. I think the strengths outweigh the imperfections 20-1”

        Oh yes. GDP, cuisine, are far more important than ethics, morality, adhering to legal obligations. Acquiring wealth by illegally exploiting non-Israeli resources, LYING to Jews in order to loan poor Jews money at interest specifically to sell them non-Israeli land in non-Israeli territories is sooooooooooooooooooo admirable

        Thanks again for the demonstration of ZioValues

        Keep up th’ good work

      • Mooser
        April 4, 2017, 12:00 pm

        .” Israel has failed because the UN disagrees with something Israel is doing? Huh?”

        Israel “failed”? It’s merely a scratch!

      • DaBakr
        April 4, 2017, 3:11 pm

        “Hilariously funny watching someone play stupid”

        As in: pretending that, even in your wildest dreams, israel is a “failure”.

        And even funnier when someone is already too stupid to realize how absurd, asinine and blind they are to recognize that despite their anger, despite their jealous rage, their indignity of it all, the justice of an ancient people reunited with their land coupled with the injustice that another people, perhaps 70, maybe 100 or even 50yrs old must work and strive to come to grips with how unfair life can be.

        Too dumb to know that some people’s wait 1000s of years to gain back what they believe lost in conquest. Too ignorant to understand that the world we all live in is comprised of one conquest (or, as these hysterically funny fools like to charge: colonial project, lol) upon another and another. So certain they are of the just nature of their cause. That palestinians, born from mostly Syrian and Jordanian arabs after Israel was re-established might have to wait, acquiece or even worse,negotiate face to face with their ‘enemy’ who after all, has only been around for what?… 5000 give or take. They it might very well take another 100 yrs before one side understands that their maximalist demands are a total failure and you can’t reset the clock back to may’67 or ’47 or 1916. Those times and the opportunities that cane with them are gone. There is no example from the history of earth where a powerful nation willingly gives up strategic, spiritually and archeologically central and developed land to a people sworn to hating then and allied with every single one of the enemies the nation has.

        So yes, your right. Pretty hilarious to be that stupid and blind to not see or understand that not only is Israel successful but wildly sucessful by any measure of the word. That your hated translates this success into a ‘failure’ …well, if it’s not just plain old stupidity, it must be something much deeper and more insidious. But for now LOL on Israel being a failure. That’s the best line one heard all week

      • Mooser
        April 4, 2017, 4:52 pm

        Oy gevalt, the muttering from “DaBakr’s corner is getting louder!
        I don’t want to be alarmist, but I think “DaBakr” is getting ready to say something!
        Go ahead “DaBakr” Speak out!

      • talknic
        April 4, 2017, 9:04 pm

        @ DaBakr April 4, 2017, 3:11 pm

        “As in: pretending that, even in your wildest dreams, israel is a “failure”.”

        Fact is, the UNSC has on numerous occasions unanimously adopted resolutions that remind Israel of its failure to adhere to the Laws and UN Charter (both binding). That’s a failure.

        Fact is, the Zionist Movement’s state has failed spectacularly to uphold the basic tenets of Judaism. Instead, it covets other folks property, has lied for over a century about its intentions. Lied about there being no Israeli borders. Lied about there being no Palestine. Lied to Israeli Jews as to where they can settle (in non-Israeli territories) . That’s a failure.

        Fact is, Israel hasn’t prevented Jewish Israeli civilians from illegally settling in Occupied Territories where they are very likely to become collateral in the struggle against an ongoing and illegal occupation. That’s a failure.

        “And even funnier when someone is already too stupid to realize how absurd, asinine and blind they are to recognize that despite their anger, despite their jealous rage, their indignity of it all, the justice of an ancient people reunited with their land “

        Fact is, there’s nothing ancient about today’s illegal Israeli settlers and if there was it’d be irrelevant to the Laws Israel obliged itself to uphold governing what a state may not do in other folks territories.

        Fact is, if they’re Israeli, Israeli ‘land’ doesn’t include any non-Israeli territories illegally acquired by war and never legally annexed to Israel by any agreement or legal instrument. No territories outside of Israel’s recognized borders is Israeli.

        Fact is, dislike for Zionist bullsh*t and the idiots who wallow in and propagate it isn’t anger or jealousy. It comes from a desire to see peace between Israel and its non-Jewish neighbours, instead of the continual wars perpetuated by the continual theft of non-Israeli territories by the so called ‘Jewish’ State. A state currently in breach of the most basic of Judaisms common sense tenets

        “Too dumb to know that some people’s wait 1000s of years to gain back what they believe lost in conquest … blah blah”

        Hilarious. From the Roman era to 1897, Jewish folk could have returned, achieved citizenship, bought land and settled anywhere in the alleged Jewish People’s Historical Homeland. Fact is few bothered. Even Herzl could have in his life time. He didn’t bother nor did his family. In fact only one of the signatories to the Israel declaration of statehood was from the region.

        Go cry to the Zionist Federation pal. They’re the people who screwed any chance of Jewish folk living in anywhere in the alleged Jewish People’s Historical Homeland of “5,000” yrs ago. They demanded a state. They got it. They proclaimed its borders. It was recognized as requested. Nothing outside of that state is Israeli

        “Too ignorant to understand that the world we all live in is comprised of one conquest (or, as these hysterically funny fools like to charge: colonial project, lol) upon another and another.”

        The ignorance is yours. It has been illegal to acquire territory by any coercive measure, including war since at least 1945 and the advent of the UN and its charter

        ” So certain they are of the just nature of their cause. That palestinians, born from mostly Syrian and Jordanian arabs after Israel was re-established might have to wait, acquiece or even worse,negotiate face to face with their ‘enemy’ who after all, has only been around for what?… 5000 give or take. “

        A) Syrian and Jordanians have no claim or RoR to non-Syrian or non-Jordanian territories and they aren’t making any claims to or for RoR to any Palestinian or Israeli territories

        B) The State of Israel has only existed since 00:01 May 15th 1948.

        C) Only refugees from the territory that became Israel (effective 00:01 May 15th 1948) have RoR to that territory and; Israel long ago achieved a Jewish majority that by far out weighs any possible demographic threat to Israel with its recognized borders

        D) The vast majority of Palestine refugees only have RoR to non-Israeli territories

        “They it might very well take another 100 yrs before one side understands that their maximalist demands are a total failure and you can’t reset the clock back to may’67 or ’47 or 1916. Those times and the opportunities that cane with them are gone”

        Yet you’re trying to set the clock back 5,000 yrs. That’s powerful stuff you been takin’. Since 1988 the Palestinians have been willing to cede 78% of their territory to Israel for peace. Israel’s response has been to illegally settle and demand more

        “There is no example from the history of earth where a powerful nation willingly gives up strategic, spiritually and archeologically central and developed land to a people sworn to hating then and allied with every single one of the enemies the nation has.”

        If it isn’t Israeli territory, Israelis have no right to it. Expect blow back

        ” not only is Israel successful but wildly sucessful by any measure of the word.”

        Deduct 68 years of illegally exploited non-Israeli resources. Deduct billions of dollars paid Israel by the Germans for Holocaust victims now living in poverty in Israel. Deduct billions in US aid, deduct billions in non-Israeli financial support over 68 years.

        If success is measured in illegal activities in non-Israeli territories, indeed it is successful.

        Successful at being immoral, unethical, criminal. Bravo

    • echinococcus
      April 3, 2017, 8:03 pm

      Jeff,

      Shabbtai Zvi was trivial in comparison to Israel. If Israel fails there won’t be a Jewish community or meaningful size. We’ll join Odin worshippers, the cult of ISIS or Cybele cults as dead religions

      Sabetai Zevi is not part of your culture, so forget it.
      As for joining the abovementioned, any of them would be a vast improvement over being a Zionist criminal. As long as it’s about the cult of Isis, Osiris and Horus, of course.

    • talknic
      April 3, 2017, 8:57 pm

      @ JeffB “I was there, I saw it”

      A worthless statement, especially coming from a proven liar for the Zionist Movement’s continued colonization of Palestine

      ” Nothing that dramatic happened…. There was no broad rejection …”

      A Jewish group being called Antisemitic isn’t rejection? WOW!! Best you tell those who constantly use that accusation against Jews

      >”.The AIPAC conference had to charge up to $600 each to keep people below the 20k the venue could handle. “

      Bullshit. Thousands of far more popular events happen across the world at much lower ticket prices and they DON’T have a problem limiting numbers. The AIPAC conferences raise money for AIPAC.

      ” Seems to me a little horrifically mistreated minority in one century becoming something like the 30th largest economy, the 15th most powerful military and a European standard of living in the middle east ain’t so bad.”

      Strange. There are LESS Holocaust survivors in Israel (approx 38.5%) than in the rest of the world. Israel’s economy has been supported by compensation to the State of Israel from Germany, thru support from non-Israeli finances, US aid and from exploiting non-Israeli resources. Oh and by shafting Israeli holocaust survivors, many of whom live in poverty after Germany has paid billions

      “I suspect many of the worlds groups suffering under tyrannies of larger more dominant groups look to Israel as a light of hope”

      You suspect based on what? ZioPoop?

      “Does INN even allow for non-Jewish members? They certainly don’t seem welcoming to non-Jews…”

      You’re hilarious. https://ifnotnowmovement.org/about-us/

      Thanks again for showing us the vacuous arguments and nonsense offered as debate by supporters of the ongoing colonization of Palestine

      • Mooser
        April 4, 2017, 12:03 pm

        “Thanks again for showing us the vacuous arguments and nonsense offered…”

        And remember, you get a lovely “Jew sui generis” button with each “JeffB” comment.

    • RoHa
      April 5, 2017, 4:51 am

      “If Israel fails there won’t be a Jewish community or meaningful size. We’ll join Odin worshippers, the cult of ISIS or Cybele cults as dead religions.”

      And so, I ask, as I often do, what?

      Cybele, Odin, and Isis are gone, and ta’en their wages. Might it not be time for Judaism to go as well?

  3. pabelmont
    April 3, 2017, 9:14 pm

    Should there be a “resistance movement” of (young) Jews? Or should resistant Jews just leave any and all synagogues (and other “community” outfits) which preach/support/propagandize Zionism (maybe exit with a splash) and leave the older generation to ask itself what will happen when they themselves are gone, the young being (largely one hopes) already gone, and the donors stop donating. If Jews just drift away, who will speak to USA’s politicians FOR them? Do they need a megaphone? an organization?

    But if they stick up for America’s downtrodden (by race: Native Americans, Black, and Brown ; by condition: poor, sick, old, homeless, mentally ill, developmentally different, LGBT) & also stick up for the people America downtreads outside its borders but within its military imperium (M/E, Palestine in part), — then more power to them.

    Maybe they can make common-cause with other Americans; this calling is very idealistic and not in any way a Jews-only affair.

    • echinococcus
      April 5, 2017, 12:27 am

      Bingo, Pabelmont.

      Especially seeing that even if there were any stirrings among the said “Jewish communities” after a hundred plus years of noisy Zionism plus 70 years of mass-murdering Zionism –I still don’t see a single Antizionist leaf quivering; we won’t see any for another how many years?– the grand total of the whole tribe is still a puny 2-3%. No way that’s the one that’s gonna turn the US ship around. We need a general American explosion of wrath for that. In voting, it’s one-dollar-one-vote where the Zionists win every time, but when it comes to mass movements dollars only count for “color revolutions”, not real movements.

  4. Annie Robbins
    April 3, 2017, 11:09 pm

    The theme of the conference was All In; and there was huge applause when Stefanie Fox said that JVP was undertaking a review of its position on Zionism, a signal that the organization will adopt a strongly anti-Zionist stance in the months to come.

    ….

    For a long time, anti-Zionists were lonely voices in the wilderness. No longer. Taking a critical position on Zionism is the only cool/interesting/generative place for intelligent young people to be; and they are willing to sacrifice a lot to be there. The suspense now is just what that revolution will produce, in Jewish and American life. –

    this is excellent, if unsurprising, news. i do believe it is inevitable.

  5. Kathleen
    April 4, 2017, 5:24 am

    What a great piece. Phil. Bringing us all up to date on how this decades long human rights movement has grown. I always think that within any growing human rights, social justice movement so important to acknowledge those that came before…carving out the path. Some losing careers, lives etc.

    “all of who bought in” Acknowledging over and over again the unquestioning support of Israel no matter what was done for decades by those who did so.

    That description of “cadevers” crossing the Aipac stage was priceless. Ouch.

    Did you go to witness the Aipac congressional lobbying day. Have always wanted to see and hear someone interviewing folks in those long lines. Years of protesting there sure saw some explosive interactions.

    Cornell West was amazing at Dem Platform events. Pushed hard for disassembling support for the occupation. He has tirelessly served the human rights movement in all its manifestations.

  6. hophmi
    April 4, 2017, 8:55 am

    And in your self-satisfied myopia, you fail to realize that far, far more young Jews support Israel than oppose it, and that the former group is growing the fastest.

    • eljay
      April 4, 2017, 11:19 am

      || hophmi: … far, far more young Jews support Israel than oppose it, and that the former group is growing the fastest. ||

      It’s a shame that far, far more young Jews believe that Jews are entitled:
      – to Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine; and
      – to do unto others acts of injustice and immorality they would not have others do unto them.

    • Mooser
      April 4, 2017, 11:42 am

      “And in your self-satisfied myopia…”

      “Hophmi” the optometrist!

    • Annie Robbins
      April 4, 2017, 12:16 pm

      far, far more young Jews support Israel than oppose it

      source? and besides isn’t it true, in the case of many young self identifying “liberal” jews of the beinart and jstreet variety, that they view themselves as supporting israel by opposing policies they deem to be anti jewish or bad for israel? so how can they qualify as “not opposing” israel if they oppose the occupation.

      either way, your source for “far far more” please.

      • Mooser
        April 4, 2017, 12:26 pm

        ,” that they view themselves as supporting israel by opposing policies they deem to be anti jewish or bad for israel?”

        Always a good tactic in a battle of wills!

    • Misterioso
      April 4, 2017, 4:59 pm

      Prove it!!

    • Misterioso
      April 6, 2017, 6:04 pm

      hophmi

      http://forward.com/fast-forward/366561/why-do-a-third-of-israelis-want-to-leave-the-country/

      Why Do A Third of Israelis Want To Leave The Country?

      The Forward, March 22, 2017 By Naomi Zeveloff

      “A third of Jewish Israelis would leave the country if they could, according to a poll conducted by Masa Israeli, a group looking at the divisions of Jewish society in Israel.”

  7. Ossinev
    April 4, 2017, 11:24 am

    “the biggest news out of the event: Israeli strongman Benjamin Netanyahu is apparently dyeing his hair”

    I could be really cruel and ask which ones or all 50 of them. But seriously might this news have prompted the longstanding Zioloon Gideon Sa`ar to start wandering around the asylum again – apparently he is experiencing that wonderful exodus from Egypt sensation once more :
    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.781155

    Bless !!

  8. Misterioso
    April 4, 2017, 1:48 pm

    Just released Video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNmDE5P6WGE

    “Israel and + Palestine in the Gilded Age”

  9. afmeyers
    April 4, 2017, 2:10 pm

    Just back from the JVP national membership meeting, the one thing that most impressed me was the explicit anti-Zionism commentary coming from multiple plenary speakers – and the enthusiastic reception by the crowd. While I’m personally anti-Zionist (also atheist and socialist) and would like to work with a Jewish-identified anti-Zionist organization (for tactical reasons…but I’ve had no response ever to multiple queries to the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network, I assume that whatever they are, a grassroots membership organization is not it), I’m still unsure if adopting explicit anti-Zionism is the right path at this moment for JVP, from a purely tactical viewpoint. Would it advance or reduce JVP’s effectiveness? JVP is already labeled “anti-Israel” and even “anti-Semitic” by the Zionist right, so no issues there, but how much would it put off the liberal Zionists in JVP’s midst, and the mainstream (both Jewish and non-Jewish – the latter including progressive churches and mainstream society)? I don’t have any answers (nor do I think anyone else does) but I’m interested in opinions on this question…

    • Mooser
      April 4, 2017, 2:56 pm

      You think JVP should take its stance, derive its policy on Zionism from a “purely tactical viewpoint”?

      • Annie Robbins
        April 4, 2017, 5:54 pm

        mooser, it’s my understanding jvp already derives its policy on zionism (which has similarities to don’t ask don’t tell) from a tactical pov (their idea of one anyway).

        regardless, i went to a jvp annual meeting a few years ago and as afmeyer’s mentions, my impression at that time was “explicit anti-Zionism commentary coming from multiple plenary speakers”. it was a fantastic conference.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 11:13 am

        “at that time was “explicit anti-Zionism commentary coming from multiple plenary speakers”.

        JVP will have to catch up with its members and speakers, sooner the better.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 5, 2017, 11:56 am

        mooser, re “explicit”, that could have been my interpretation.

  10. jon s
    April 4, 2017, 4:54 pm

    A correction: Shabtai Zvi lived in the 17th century, not the 16th.
    This is important for understanding his significance. The 17th century was in many ways the dawn of modernity: the scientific revolution, the first stirrings of Enlightenment, but also a prolongued bloodbath, the 30 Years War. The Jewish people ( a people which hadn’t been invented yet, according to Prof.Sand…) were stunned by the horrific pogroms of 1648-49 in eastern Europe. Shabtai Zvi’s movement could be seen as an early attempt , couched in religious-messianic terms to become pro-active, to “take our fate into our own hands”.

  11. jon s
    April 4, 2017, 5:16 pm

    Regarding Phil’s interesting report: Jewish anti-Zionists don’t have a chance of “winning the argument” in the American Jewish community, in my opinion, as long as they seem to be indifferent to the goal of sustaining the community as such. If anti-Zionists, people like Phil, would say “instead of supporting Israel, let us devote our resources and energy to stregthening our institutions (community centers, synagogues and such), to more Jewish education (more day schools, more Bible and Talmud study, more Hebrew and Yiddish, more Jewish history and culture)” – then maybe they wouldn’t be perceived by the majority of the community as not caring about the community, caring only about opposing Zionism.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 4, 2017, 6:03 pm

      jon, what gives you the impression Jewish anti-Zionists are indifferent to sustaining the American Jewish community?

      clearly you are not on jvp and ifnotnow’s listserve if you think they are not religiously inclined and don’t devote resources and energy into strengthening jewish institutions. it just might not be the zionist oriented jewish institutions you’ve got in mind. it might not be hillel, aipac and synagogues flying the zionist flag/requirement. but there are non zionist oriented type jewish institutions.

      for example, you’re implying the jewish people, including many students, who participated in the anti aipac protest in dc are not jewish community oriented. but that was a very jewish community event, as was the jvp meeting phil went to.

      if the youth follow the lead of these groups (instead of the pro occupation pro zionist groups) they will be “winning the argument”, eventually.

      • JeffB
        April 4, 2017, 10:01 pm

        @Annie

        I wouldn’t group INN with JVP in as anti-zionist. They claim to be neutral on the question. But in practice the fact that they take personal responsibility for Israel’s actions, is an acknowledgement

        a) There exists a transnational political entity the Jewish people
        b) This political entity runs the state of Israel
        c) They are part of that entity

        There entire political protest motif is couched in Jewish terms. They reflect Jewish symbolism (and incidentally unlike a lot of people here use that symbolism correctly). That IMHO is Zionist. They have absorbed negative connotations to the word and don’t want to use it. But they are Zionist, part of the Jewish community.

        INN is certainly anti-occupation. Their moral critique comes from within Judaism not from outside it. They don’t want to negotiate with mainstream Jewish organizations but we are holding a seat open for them, whenever they want it.

        I agree with Yonah, they shouldn’t be grouped with JVP.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 4, 2017, 10:07 pm

        They don’t want to negotiate with mainstream Jewish organizations but we are holding a seat open for them, whenever they want it.

        i take it you don’t consider the zionist organization of america a mainstream jewish org.

        btw, as far as i know neither jvp or if not now identify as anti zionist. none the less, it doesn’t mean many of their members are not anti zionist. in fact i know many members of jvp who are (i don’t think i know any members of if not now). last i heard, zionists holding a seat for you at the table doesn’t make you a zionist. and what difference would it make anyway because even jstreeters, many of whom moved to if not now (as i understand it), were called anti semites at a recent zionist/anti-bds conference.

        the fact that they take personal responsibility for Israel’s actions, is an acknowledgement

        of being a zionist? that is crazy. as an american i feel personally responsible for israel’s crimes, because i help pay for them. doesn’t mean i am a zionist (or jewish).

        There entire political protest motif is couched in Jewish terms. They reflect Jewish symbolism …. That IMHO is Zionist.

        my understanding is this is atzmon’s take on it too. hmm.

      • Citizen
        April 8, 2017, 8:03 am

        @ Annie
        RE: “…as an american i feel personally responsible for israel’s crimes, because i help pay for them. doesn’t mean i am a zionist (or jewish).

        There entire political protest motif is couched in Jewish terms. They reflect Jewish symbolism …. That IMHO is Zionist.

        my understanding is this is atzmon’s take on it too. hmm.”

        I agree; I am not Jewish but I feel responsible as an American taxpayer and voter for what our elected leaders do, and don’t do, in my name. As everyone knows, they are always claiming to speak for “the American people” and “American values.” They also wantonly throw around “our Judeo-Christian values.” Re Atzmon, yes, he, a born and bred Israeli, traces Zionist values all the way back to the Jewish bible, to morality and ethics in biblical stories, or the lack of them. Personally, I don’t think he has addressed, for example, the strain of Judaism represented by Hillel The Elder.

    • yonah fredman
      April 4, 2017, 6:20 pm

      I don’t know about “winning the argument”, but I will say this from my perspective. “If Not Now” seems very oriented towards the Jewish community. JVP, not so much.

      • jon s
        April 5, 2017, 3:41 pm

        Annie, Yonah, Ok, if those groups are community-oriented, that’s good news, in my view.
        I don’t recall Phil Weiss here as ever expressing interest in sustaining the community.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 4:08 pm

        “I don’t recall Phil Weiss here as ever expressing interest in sustaining the community.”

        “Jon s” it’s the “friends-don’t-let-friends-drive-drunk” principle. They at least try and wrestle the keys away.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 4:15 pm

        “Jon s” I gotta hand it to you, you never try to avoid the fact that ‘what is good for “Jon s” is good for Judaism’.

  12. JWalters
    April 4, 2017, 8:08 pm

    Great descriptions of the different factions.!

    This Jewish Resistance movement can rightly be called a lamp unto the nations, for putting Justice and universal human rights above blind tribalism and archaic, barbaric ethnic supremacism.

    Nancy Pelosi calling Israel’s long litany of crimes and atrocities “sacred” is itself moral depravity. Congress truly worships at the alter of money.

  13. JeffB
    April 4, 2017, 10:09 pm

    @Mooser

    I suggest you read the Torah. The God of Israel promises stuff to his people. Judaism isn’t beyond the transactional, the God gets worship and the people get the God’s protection and blessing.

    As for whether it is a prominent trend, yes. Reform was markedly anti-Zionist 100 years ago, today it is firmly liberal Zionist. Modern Orthodox even in the United States has become religious Zionist. Hasidic faiths are becoming more functionally Zionist and in last decade are merging in with Religious Zionist. The Judaism of defeat and despair no longer fits a people that have regained their health.

    • talknic
      April 4, 2017, 10:55 pm

      JeffB April 4, 2017, 10:09 pm

      “I suggest you read the Torah. The God of Israel promises stuff to his people. Judaism isn’t beyond the transactional, the God gets worship and the people get the God’s protection and blessing.”

      That the same God who is AWOL for every disaster including the Holocaust?

      “The Judaism of defeat and despair no longer fits a people that have regained their health.”

      Ongoing Zionist Colonialism is in breach of the most basic tenets of Judaism.

      • catalan
        April 5, 2017, 10:50 am

        “That the same God who is AWOL for every disaster including the Holocaust?” – talknic
        I agree with you that prayers are not always fulfilled. On the other hand, having a nuclear arsenal, a huge airforce, and the willingness to use them does wonders. Look at Cast Lead. So on that topic at least, you agree with Israel. Waiting for divine interventions gives you, well, Hamas.

      • eljay
        April 5, 2017, 12:18 pm

        || catalan: … having a nuclear arsenal, a huge airforce, and the willingness to use them does wonders. Look at Cast Lead. So on that topic at least, you agree with Israel. Waiting for divine interventions gives you, well, Hamas. ||

        It’s nice to know you don’t begrudge Hamas its arsenal of weapons and its tunnels and its willingness to use them and not to wait for divine interventions which gives you, well, religion-supremacist “Jewish State” and all of the (war) crimes that that project comprises.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 12:24 pm

        “On the other hand, having a nuclear arsenal, a huge airforce, and the willingness to use them does wonders”

        Doesn’t it though! Israel having those things makes every Jew outside of Israel a hostage. How else will anybody convince Israel not to use those things?

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 12:38 pm

        “That the same God who is AWOL for every disaster including the Holocaust”

        “Talknic”, please, as “JeffB” says: “Judaism isn’t beyond the transactional…” At the time of the Holocaust, we just hadn’t met the price.
        Anyway, how happy they must have been knowing their ‘transaction’ would pay off for “JeffB”

      • catalan
        April 5, 2017, 2:59 pm

        “It’s nice to know you don’t begrudge Hamas its arsenal of weapons ” Eljay
        Of course not, I would expect nothing less. The next war will be within three years if the past is any guide. That’s what enemies do – they arm so they can fight.
        We all agree that divine intervention is unreliable. What else to depend upon – the kindness of strangers? Public opinion? Yup, that’s working out great for the Palestinians.

      • eljay
        April 5, 2017, 3:06 pm

        || catalan: … We all agree that divine intervention is unreliable. What else to depend upon – the kindness of strangers? Public opinion? … ||

        IMO, we should be depending upon the universal and consistent application of justice, accountability and equality. Unfortunately, too many people – including Zionists – prefer to shit on and undermine international laws and human rights and the protections they are meant to afford all people.

      • gamal
        April 5, 2017, 3:16 pm

        “Judaism isn’t beyond the transactional” you should definitely berne for that one.

        “the God gets worship and the people get the God’s protection and blessing.”

        and all the rest is commentary,

        Yahweh insurance salesman

        “the God gets the worship” you do know that were “the God” to get “the worship” (or anything for that matter) he couldn’t be “the God” or do you not see that?
        Where are you sending yours, not to a Lagos address I hope.

      • talknic
        April 5, 2017, 9:03 pm

        @ catalan April 5, 2017, 10:50 am

        “… having a nuclear arsenal, a huge airforce, and the willingness to use them does wonders. “

        So you cheer for the biggest bully and criminal. Why am I not amazed?

        Having nukes is a threat to use them otherwise there’s no point in having them. So who’s the threat in the M East and who uses that threat to act illegally in other folks territories with impunity?

        It Isn’t any Arab or Persian state nor the Palestinians who have absolutely no obligations legally, ethically or morally to relinquish any of their legal rights to anyone, not even in negotiations. Certainly not to a state in breach of the law and making demands that have absolutely no legal, moral, ethical or for that matter logical basis

        “Look at Cast Lead. So on that topic at least, you agree with Israel”

        You’re not fit to judge what I agree to

        “Waiting for divine interventions gives you, well, Hamas”

        90 years of the Zionist Federation colonizing Palestine , 39 years of Israel occupying non-Israeli territories illegally acquired by war in 1948/49, 20 years of Israel occupying even more non-Israeli territories in 1967, a response to over a hundred years now of Zionist fomented aggression is Hamas.

    • Keith
      April 5, 2017, 12:34 am

      JEFFB- “The Judaism of defeat and despair no longer fits a people that have regained their health.”

      The Judaism of defeat and despair? What have you been smoking? During the period of Classical Judaism, with few exceptions the Jews were RELATIVELY privileged and powerful compared to the Gentile peasants, that is the majority of Gentiles. Thanks to Zionism, so it remains today. No more Gentile peasants, but the majority of Gentiles below the majority of Jews as relates to economic power.

      • JeffB
        April 5, 2017, 8:42 am

        @Keith

        I’m not sure I see much evidence that the Jews of the Pale were economically privileged. However, relatively privileged economically relative to peasants while suffering political and social discrimination is not the same as controlling your own country and living in peace. Obviously the Palestinians are a good example here of the argument you are making. Relative to most middle easterners West Bankers have a higher living standard. That doesn’t mean they don’t have reason to dislike their situation.

      • Keith
        April 5, 2017, 10:45 am

        JEFFB- “I’m not sure I see much evidence that the Jews of the Pale were economically privileged. However, relatively privileged economically relative to peasants while suffering political and social discrimination is not the same as controlling your own country and living in peace.”

        Two points. Much of Jewish poverty in the Pale was a consequence of there being too many Jews (conversion & immigration) for the non-Jewish peasant society to support economically. It takes a more advanced economy to support a significant middle class. As far as “controlling your own country,” how much control did the peasants have? How much control do the non-elite Jewish Israelis have? All societies are more-or-less run by elites. Wrapping your Zionist justification in democratic mythology is nothing but pilpul. As for “peace,” referring to the militaristic societies of either the US or Israel as living in peace doesn’t rise to the level of a bad joke.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 12:28 pm

        “During the period of Classical Judaism, with few exceptions the Jews were RELATIVELY privileged and powerful compared to the Gentile peasants, that is the majority of Gentiles.”

        Big deal. That doesn’t come near what we are entitled to, and should be given. “JeffB” wouldn’t insult us by comparing us to peasants!

        In an alternate history, it all works out the way it is supposed to!

      • Citizen
        April 8, 2017, 8:48 am

        Between the 16th and 18th centuries, the Jews entered into what may be described as a marriage of convenience with the nobility. As a result of the legal protection enjoyed by the Polish Jews, their economic co-operation with the magnates and their autonomy within the state, 16th and 17th century Poland was described as ‘heaven for the Jews, paradise for the nobles, hell for the serfs.’

        If one was to go back to the middle of the eighteenth century and ask an average Polish peasant what is it that Jews did, the first answer would have probably been either leasers or tavern keepers. Production and distribution of alcohol was by far the most typical Jewish economic activity in rural pre-partition Poland, along with other sorts of occupations that depended on the leasing of manorial privileges, such as milling or estate management

    • Mooser
      April 5, 2017, 12:17 pm

      “I suggest you read the Torah. The God of Israel promises stuff to his people. Judaism isn’t beyond the transactional, the God gets worship and the people get the God’s protection and blessing.”

      Oh, “JeffB”, how I wish I felt like I too, as a Jew, might be entitled to the “stuff” the God of Israel promises. It’s a generous offer, but you don’t know how much sausage, pork roast, shellfish and Beef Stroganoff I have consumed in a long and omnivorous life. It’s been one long movable trefa banquet for me. To lay the strips of bacon I have eaten end-to-end would be the act of a much rasher man.
      No, it’s too late for me. “Judaism isn’t beyond the transactional” but I don’t think I can afford it, at this point.

      But bless you for making the offer of “protection” on God’s behalf.

  14. JeffB
    April 4, 2017, 10:23 pm

    @Annie

    I think I may be missing what you are getting at. So I’ll just answer naively and let you hit me with whatever followup. Yes I do consider the ZOA a mainstream Jewish organization. As does the INN since this is one of the mainstream organizations they protest against.

    If you are asking if INN can join ZOA, no they can’t there is too much distance on the left-right divide. However, I sincerely hope in years to come that INN runs as part of HATIKVAH (or as part of Mercaz where they might also fit quite well) against the ZOA in the WZC elections . And I suspect that ZOA does too. That’s how they should get their seat with respect to ZOA.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 4, 2017, 10:40 pm

      If you are asking if INN can join ZOA, no they can’t there is too much distance on the left-right divide.

      you wrote earlier “we (mainstream Jewish organizations) are holding a seat open for them, whenever they want it.” but everyone already knows jstreet tried to get in the door, and were rejected. if not now and jvp are both to the left of jstreet. now you are saying they can’t join because there is too big of a divide?

      “holding a seat” doesn’t really mean anything if they are not allowed to join until they pass some sort of litmus test which even jstreet didn’t qualify for. it’s just empty bs ‘inclusive’ rhetoric.

      it should go without saying that groups like zoa and aipac and even the most rightwing jewish organization on the planet would welcome any jew who proved zionist enough for them. but you can’t claim they are all in that corner just because you’re hoping they will end up there. and you can’t claim they are keeping the seat warm for them to come join if in fact, that’s not true. it’s just not up to jvp, jstreet, if not now, or any other jewish group who can join zoa. if it were i’d imagine they’d join so they could have more of an impact on what constitutes “mainstream” in the jewish community. those groups, like hillel, are tightly controlled from the top down. get in line or get rejected.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 4, 2017, 10:45 pm

        your rhetoric continually implies jewish = zionist. it doesn’t.

        i wouldn’t be surprised if the fastest growing political identity inside the jewish community is that of “anti zionist”. you holding the door open for them to switch teams is just not that impressive.

      • JeffB
        April 4, 2017, 11:26 pm

        @Annie

        but everyone already knows jstreet tried to get in the door, and were rejected.

        No they weren’t. JStreet is part of the Jewish community. They go to Jewish political events and participate fully. They aren’t excluded. Since you picked ZOA let’s use them as an excample. Hatizvah has 8 delegates to the WZC and explicitly includes JStreet. ZOA only has 7 delegates.

        if not now and jvp are both to the left of jstreet. now you are saying they can’t join because there is too big of a divide?

        You are getting confused here. Let me give you an American analogy.

        Alex: The environmental caucus of Pennsylvania (INN) is not welcome as part of the political process.
        John: Of course they are. They are welcome to join.
        Alex: Well can they join the Republican party of Pennsylvania (ZOA) ?
        John: No they are anti fracking and the Republican party is pro fracking. But they can join the Democratic party of Pennsylvania (Hatikvah) and run against the Republicans.

        “holding a seat” doesn’t really mean anything if they are not allowed to join until they pass some sort of litmus test which even jstreet didn’t qualify for.

        JStreet qualifies. INN qualifies. JVP doesn’t. JVP are heretics (using a Christian term which doesn’t exactly map for clarity). INN are righteous Jews who just happen to be a little to the left politically. They aren’t comparable situations.

        your rhetoric continually implies jewish = zionist. it doesn’t.

        I disagree. I think Jews get to decide the content of the Jewish religion. I don’t think you all rightfully decide the Arian / Trinitarian debate but I don’t get a vote on that. Christians get to decide Arianism is heresy while Trinitarianism is mainstream.

        i wouldn’t be surprised if the fastest growing political identity inside the jewish community is that of “anti zionist”.

        I suspect the fastest growing political identity in numeric terms is Republican. In percentage terms who knows? No one tracks the politics of small movements on small subsets of the population. Getting back to numbers though: anti-Zionists are mostly not inside the Jewish community (even excluding the fact that I think left secular anti-zionist beliefs you are thinking of are herem). That’s why the JVPers get their backs up if you start asking religious questions to verify if they are actually Jewish like where did they get bar mitzvah or knowledge questions like to recite the prayer before lighting shabbat candles. JVPers are usually 1/2 or 1/4 Jews with no Jewish education, no ties to the community and no involvement in Jewish activities outside of anti-Zionist politics. They are mostly (not all) Christians claiming to be Jews while trying to discredit Judaism / Israel.

        I’m not saying that’s all of them. But that’s one of the things that great about INN. INN creates a home for people who are actually Jewish religiously but are upset about Israeli behavior: a healthy alternative to JVP. JStreet creates a home for people who are often ethnically and culturally Jewish aren’t filled with self loathing and hatred for their people that JVP demands. JStreet makes it possible to critically engage in a healthy way.

  15. JeffB
    April 4, 2017, 10:54 pm

    @Annie

    I’ll respond to the rest here since that stuff I’m not lost about.

    btw, as far as i know neither jvp or if not now identify as anti zionist.

    I agree that JVP doesn’t self identify as anti-Zionist. But again this is the reverse of the situation with INN where they are mislabeling themselves. JVP certainly advocates for anti-Zionism quite openly. But worse they conspire openly with enemies of the Jewish working for the destruction of the Jewish people (I know you claim that’s not the goal of BDS but Jews disagree and Jews get to decide the status of what’s Jewish). They are straight up traitors.

    last i heard, zionists holding a seat for you at the table doesn’t make you a zionist.

    Reread my post. I talked about what made them Zionist.

    and what difference would it make anyway because even jstreeters, many of whom moved to if not now (as i understand it), were called anti semites at a recent zionist/anti-bds conference.

    Yes they were called anti-semites by a Mormon. The Mormon is a friend to the Jews and a true ally but he doesn’t get to decide who is or isn’t classified as part of the Jewish national liberation movement. He’s entitled to an opinion. His achievements entitles him to express it. That doesn’t mean Jews have to endorse it. And they don’t. JStreetU are liberals not antisemites. This whole incident is much ado about naught.

    As for moving to INN. Some of the INN leadership came out of JStreetU originally. But most JStreetU kids don’t have enough Jewish education to be part of INN. The INN founders were atypical JStreetU in terms of their religious education, they are going to remain distinct. JStreet is a lobby, JStreetU kids are learning how lobbies work in the context of an issue an issue they care about. Your typical JStreetU kid is ooking to be congressional staffer, work for a public interest group, work for a lobby after college…. INN is a moral / religious call. Judaism doesn’t have the concept of a revival but that’s the analogy (i.e. stop drinking and whoring come back to Jesus ~~ stop being apologists for the oppression of Palestinians and live the values of Judaism). Politically they are pretty close and I’m sure they will work together but I don’t think the groups will merge or anything.

    the fact that they take personal responsibility for Israel’s actions, is an acknowledgement of being a zionist?

    Yes.

    There entire political protest motif is couched in Jewish terms. They reflect Jewish symbolism …. That IMHO is Zionist.
    my understanding is this is atzmon’s take on it too. hmm.

    Its anti-Zionists who keep trying to cut the ties between Judaism and Zionism claiming its antisemitism. This is actually anti-Zionist hatred of Jewish self determination. Not only do they want Jews not to exercise political power they don’t want Jews to have authority over the content of the Jewish religion.

    In the real world: Jews & Zionists don’t deny the ties between Judaism and Zionism. Judaism has for centuries had proto-Zionist teachings that Zionism built on. Zionism today aims to further strengthen those ties, as I’ve said before to over the next two centuries make it impossible to discuss Judaism outside an Israeli context. I was at a funeral today. Wonderful eulogy for a great man, Jewish prayer in Hebrew, 3 rabbis, a torah and an Israeli flag. That’s the reality of Judaism in 2017 and was the reality of Judaism in 1977 too.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 4, 2017, 11:25 pm

      they conspire openly with enemies of the Jewish working for the destruction of the Jewish people (I know you claim that’s not the goal of BDS but Jews disagree and Jews get to decide the status of what’s Jewish).

      yeah well, the ol saying is 2 jews 3 opinions, so “jews get to decide the status of what’s jewish” is a moot point regarding the goals of BDS since BDS is not jewish, it’s a palestinian led movement.

      Reread my post. I talked about what made them Zionist.

      that’s not a counter argument. you said silly stuff like “There entire political protest motif is couched in Jewish terms. They reflect Jewish symbolism …. That IMHO is Zionist.” and i told you i thought your rhetoric continually implies jewish = zionist. it doesn’t.

      the fact that they take personal responsibility for Israel’s actions, is an acknowledgement of being a zionist?

      Yes.

      you skipped my counter argument. by this standard i would be considered a zionist, and i’m not. you also transparently bypassed ““holding a seat” doesn’t really mean anything if they are not allowed to join until they pass some sort of litmus test which even jstreet didn’t qualify for. it’s just empty bs ‘inclusive’ rhetoric.

      no prob, it’s tough making counter arguments when you contradict yourself routinely.

      This is actually anti-Zionist hatred of Jewish self determination. Not only do they want Jews not to exercise political power they don’t want Jews to have authority over the content of the Jewish religion.

      you keep referencing “jews” as if you mean zionist. anti zionists jews have as much clout (authority) to define judaism (“the content of the Jewish religion”) as you do. i merely pointed out that this theory of yours, that “political protest motif … couched in Jewish terms…. reflect Jewish symbolism …. That IMHO is Zionist.” is a false narrative. you can pick and choose who you like and approve of by a certain standard all you want, but your own definitions match those of another who you do not like, it makes you sound like a hypocrite when you denounce the very theory you were just supporting when it’s spouted by someone you (may) despise.

      a counter argument is challenging the idea, not throwing ad hominems at it and accusing your adversaries of hatred (cheap overplayed crutch). either way, i’m not an expert on jewish religion, if not now, or atzmon. but it seems absurd to claim if not now practices zionism because they use jewish symbols et al, i don’t care whether you say this or atzmon does, i don’t agree with it.

      i think i’ll let you have the last word. arguing with you is a futile experience. good evening.

      p.s using the reply feature is easy, as i am sure you are aware.

      edit: addressing jeff’s (following) lies :

      A Christian (Annie)* is asserting what is the contents of the Jewish religion are**. In this case among other things the proper interpretation of the morning prayer call to a restoration of Zion.***

      * i am not a christian
      ** asserted no such thing
      *** no idea what “the morning prayer call to a restoration of Zion” is, much less any interpretation of it, “proper” or otherwise.

      • JeffB
        April 4, 2017, 11:38 pm

        @Annie

        I skipped your counter argument because I don’t believe you take personal responsibility for Israel’s actions. I’ve read you off and on for years. You don’t have a self esteem problem. You wouldn’t be capable of the unhinged hatred you have expressed towards Israel for years if you actually identified Israel with yourself. If you actually identified with Israel you would have a vastly more nuanced view and be more situational. The difference between Mondoweiss’ tone and INN’s tone is striking. I suggest you listen to their protest songs and compare them to yours.

        yeah well, the ol saying is 2 jews 3 opinions, so “jews get to decide the status of what’s jewish” is a moot point

        Jews have things that are similar to your Christian creeds. We have rabbinical colleges. We have (though not in the USA) formal chief Rabbis. We have active religious courts. Not all opinions are equal.

        As for your comments about BDS. Reread what you were responding to. Your response is a non sequitur.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 11:45 am

        “We have active religious courts. Not all opinions are equal”

        Thank you for bringing this up, “JeffB”! This is an area in which you can enlighten a lot of Mondo readers. So please tell us, “JeffyB” what is the hierarchy of the different Jewish Rabbinical Courts and Colleges?
        To make a simple comparison, who is our “Pope” (so to speak) and College of Cardinals, devolving religious authority upon Bishops, finally to local Priests and pastors?

        Without knowing which Jewish Rabbinical Court or College is the real authority, I’m sort of stuck on who to obey.
        Can you inform us of the hierarchy of religious authority in Judaism?
        Of course, the most important question is: is the order Orthodox-Conservative-Reform, or is each denomination a separate authority?

    • echinococcus
      April 5, 2017, 12:16 am

      Great! How do we know we’re in the States?
      Looks like as if a few Zionist criminals like Jeff have taken over the discussion section of Mondoweiss, as if there weren’t enough Zio outlets elsewhere; they have the few thinking people here trying to keep up writing totally unnecessary rebuttals to moronic, pretzeltwisted heckling.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 11:37 am

        “echin”, I think “JeffB” made himself pretty clear, when he told us about the Judaism which undergirds his Zionism:

        Judaism will have proven to be fake and a fraud. What would be the point of the religion anymore? There never is going to be a national salvation. Judaism offers nothing but sorrow. Why would anyone care about fulfilling religious obligations or worshipping a fake lying god? There is no Judaism anymore without Israel.” “JeffB” http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb/#sthash.slhZVYBy.dpuf

        Of course, that was yesterday.

      • echinococcus
        April 5, 2017, 2:37 pm

        Wow, Mooser. Congratulations for your research. So it’s confirmed that Jeff’s concept of religion is exactly the one adopted by a certain self-appointed Central European Aryan tribe in the thirties.

    • talknic
      April 5, 2017, 3:12 am

      Poor chap

      @ JeffB April 4, 2017, 10:54 pm

      ” JVP certainly advocates for anti-Zionism quite openly. But worse they conspire openly with enemies of the Jewish working for the destruction of the Jewish people”

      Jewish Voices for Peace are well, lemme see now. JVP = Jewish voices for Peace … Jewish Voices … Jewish at a guess

      Thanks again JeffB for showing folk that some people will say anything no matter how foolish it makes them look

    • eljay
      April 5, 2017, 7:59 am

      || JeffB: … Its anti-Zionists who keep trying to cut the ties between Judaism and Zionism claiming its antisemitism. This is actually anti-Zionist hatred of Jewish self determination. … ||

      AFAIK, anti-Zionists do not deny the right of people to self-determine as Jewish. The problem with Zionists and Zionism is the misguided belief that the religion-based identity of Jewish comprises a right to a (religion-supremacist) state. It doesn’t.

      • JeffB
        April 5, 2017, 8:53 am

        @Eljay

        You are getting confused on the argument. Self determination is the right to form a government that represents your interests. That is what you are calling a supremacist state. Again, you tend to be back and forth on this but when Japanese people form a Japanese government that represents Japanese interests that is precisely what Israel does.

        Self determination is not merely the right to call yourself stuff.

        Now in this particular argument it isn’t even political but rather religious. A Christian (Annie) is asserting what is the contents of the Jewish religion are. In this case among other things the proper interpretation of the morning prayer call to a restoration of Zion. What Judaism preaches. You yourself have made similar claims. Which I think demonstrates a shocking level of contempt for Jewish self determination. I’m taking the simple position the contents of the Jewish religion are whatever the Jews collectively consider them to be. Jews have institutions, those institutions take positions, those positions are Jewish positions.

        One can disagree that Jews rightfully decided something but arguing they didn’t decide what they decided is nonsense.

      • eljay
        April 5, 2017, 9:31 am

        || JeffB: @Eljay You are getting confused on the argument. … ||

        Not at all.

        || … Self determination is the right to form a government that represents your interests. … ||

        A religion-based identity does not comprise a right to form a government or create a state.

        || … Again, you tend to be back and forth on this but when Japanese people form a Japanese government that represents Japanese interests that is precisely what Israel does. … ||

        I agree that that’s what a secular and democratic Israel should do, but that’s not what a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” of Israel does.

        || … A Christian (Annie) is asserting what is the contents of the Jewish religion are. In this case among other things the proper interpretation of the morning prayer call to a restoration of Zion. What Judaism preaches. You yourself have made similar claims. … ||

        I don’t recall making any claims about what Judaism should or shouldn’t teach. The fact is that neither Judaism’s teachings nor the fervently-uttered prayers of its adherents comprise a right to a (religion-supremacist) state.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 5:12 pm

        ” Wow, Mooser. Congratulations for your research.”

        Research? I haven’t done any research. “JeffB” is simply saying all the same stuff he said before his break. Remember this one?

        “I’m a Zionist, a Jew, and an atheist.” “JeffB” http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb/?keyword=atheist#sthash.ECBVYJ2y.dpuf

        JeffB has it all covered! Try this one:

        “The Jewish people in Israel decided to move away from the communal atheist identity to become a neo-liberal religious society “ “JeffB” http://mondoweiss.net/profile/jeffb/?keyword=atheist#sthash.ECBVYJ2y.dpuf

        A “neo-liberal religious society”! You betcha!

      • Annie Robbins
        April 5, 2017, 5:18 pm

        you crack me up mooser! thank you for your indomitable disposition.

  16. Ossinev
    April 5, 2017, 7:23 am

    @JeffB
    “the Jewish national liberation movement”

    I am more than a little confused on this one. Can you clarify exactly which nation(s) Jews are trying to liberate themselves from eg are they trying desperately to escape from the horrific oppression and degradation hundreds of thousands of them are suffering from in sunny Florida or California or is it more of a question of intolerable colder climes in Metropolitan New
    York ?

    • JeffB
      April 5, 2017, 8:59 am

      @Ossinev

      Few Israelis came from America, especially in percentage terms. Jews in America aren’t terribly oppressed. But that’s not Israel.

      Israeli’s ancestors were fleeing the mistreatment and discrimination in the Ottoman world. Then the eastern European pograms. Then the desire to finish the final solution by having the surviving Jews freeze to death in the remnants of the concentration camps. Then massive anti-Jewish pogroms in the Arabic world…. through to what happened in Iran, Venezuela and South Africa in the last generation.

      • Keith
        April 5, 2017, 11:07 am

        JEFFB- “Israeli’s ancestors were fleeing the mistreatment and discrimination in the Ottoman world. Then the eastern European pograms.”

        Prior to the Holocaust and extensive Zionist recruitment efforts, the vast majority of Jews opposed Zionism, relatively few made aliyah. Surely you are aware of this?

        JEFFB- “Then the desire to finish the final solution by having the surviving Jews freeze to death in the remnants of the concentration camps.”

        Keeping Jews in concentration camps so that they could be persuaded/forced to immigrate to Israel was a particularly dark chapter in Zionist history. If given a choice, most of these Jews preferred Britain or the US. Later, Soviet Jews frequently diverted to the US until the Zionists were able to better control them. Surely you are aware of all of this?

        JEFFB- “Then massive anti-Jewish pogroms in the Arabic world…. through to what happened in Iran, Venezuela and South Africa in the last generation.”

        Zionist rubbish! You appear to have no qualms about engaging in massive falsehoods. In fact, the history of warm Israeli relations with apartheid South Africa, and their mutual support provides valuable insights into the nature of the Zionist regime.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 12:41 pm

        “Keith”, one thing is very clear: when dealing with “JeffB”, you are dealing with a man who can type!

  17. Steve Grover
    April 5, 2017, 11:11 am

    JVP held their National Members Meeting at the Hyatt at McCormick Place in Chicago on 3/31 thru 4/2. JVP invited Rasmea Odeh the convicted murderer of Leon Kanner and Edward Joffe to speak. StandWithUs and the JUF ripped JVP apart in the media making JVP look like terrorist supporters which they are.

    JVP had Linda Sarsour speak who has gained a bit of a positive media coverage because of the Women’s Marches. Because of how stupid JVP looked for inviting Odeh and even with Sarsour there, no one gave a crap about the JVP national members meeting. No coverage in the media. There was a small anti gun violence event hosted by JCUA in Chicago on April 2nd and that was covered by Chicago television news stations ABC 7 , NBC 5, CBS 2 and WGN.

    • Annie Robbins
      April 5, 2017, 12:05 pm

      convicted by a kangaroo court w/a 99.7 conviction rate against people of a specific ethnic background, after she was tortured and raped by her captors.

      StandWithUs and the JUF ripped JVP apart in the media

      defenders of torturers, apartheid, occupation, ethnic cleansing. like — who cares what they say?

      making JVP look like terrorist supporters which they are.

      The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

      • Steve Grover
        April 5, 2017, 1:02 pm

        So tell me Annie, how come there was zero, nada, bupkis media coverage of that big JVP nmm in Chicago with the star of the show Linda Sarsour?

      • (((James North)))
        April 5, 2017, 1:06 pm

        Mooser: Did you decide to give your sock-puppet a bit more intelligence?

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 1:38 pm

        “Mooser: Did you decide to give your sock-puppet a bit more intelligence?”

        Doctor’s orders. He said “Grover’s” liver would give out if something didn’t change. Let’s hope for the best.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 5, 2017, 3:58 pm

        zero, nada, bupkis media coverage of that big JVP nmm in Chicago with the star of the show Linda Sarsour?

        steve. i guess you missed the nypost’s “NYC’s queen of hate”.

        hasbrats for israel are wedded to the accusation and actions of hatred. must be tough defending torturers, apartheid, occupation, ethnic cleansing.

        considering the massive amount of press in the last few days dedicated to slamming the conference my hunch is the israel’s zionist regime and other mainstream rtwg zionist orgs are worried, very worried. jerusalem post:

        [A]ccording to JVP executive director Rebecca Vilkomerson Vilkomerson, the minister’s statement was simply the latest attack on JVP “in an escalating campaign by the Israeli government to criminalize political dissent.”

        “The stronger the BDS movement becomes, the more the Israeli government demonstrates its growing alarm about the power of the movement for Palestinian rights,” she said in a statement on the evening of the summit. “Our National Member Meeting, our largest ever, is proof that JVP is providing a political and spiritual home for a growing number of Jews who want to bring their full selves to this work.

        “We push, we challenge, we are willing and able to keep evolving,” she said. “We are willing to be uncomfortable, and to make others uncomfortable, in ways that stretch and push the limits of our thinking, and encourage ourselves and others to challenge assumptions we have learned and move closer to embodying the vision we have for the world.”

        The conference is focused on “building the power of movements for racial justice and equality both in the US and in Israel/Palestine.” It is the largest gathering of members to date, according to the organization.

        Participants include JVP chapter leaders, rabbis, academics, students and healthcare workers.

        “It is a scary time. We are facing threats that are coming at us faster and more intensely than any time I can remember,” Vilkomerson said in her opening remarks on Friday.

        “The only way to fight and resist and organize in this time is to, not only knit ourselves closer together, to offer each other the support and love and sustenance we need to have the energy and spirit to continue the fight, but to consciously be part of knitting together the emerging broader movement.”

        Vilkomerson spoke of JVP’s “key role in church divestment, campus divestment, cultural boycott and municipal boycott campaigns that have all contributed to making the BDS movement a global force to be reckoned with.”

        She added that the backlash JVP receives from other Jewish organizations and from Israeli officials, especially after the announcement of Odeh’s participation, was “evidence of the growing power of [the Jewish pro-BDS] movement.”

        According to a November 2016 Brookings Institute poll on American attitudes toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Vilkomerson’s estimation of the movement may be correct: The American polarization on how to react to Israeli settlements has expanded over the past two years, as 60% of Democrats now support imposing economic sanctions against Israel, or more serious action.

        In light of Donald Trump’s election, JVP’s efforts have been directed to “making sure that Palestinian freedom is squarely in the center of the progressive agenda,” she explained.

        ouch! >>> http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Over-1000-people-gather-in-largest-ever-Jewish-pro-BDS-conference-485799

        awareness of zionist crimes and intransigence is moving at a very fast pace, it’s an exciting time for the movement. always bittersweet considering the suffering on the ground, but exciting nonetheless.

      • Steve Grover
        April 5, 2017, 4:23 pm

        Just read that NY Post piece Annie. If that is the only thing you can find in the media about that spectacular JVP NMM, then JVP had better fire their Director of Propaganda Naomi Dann.
        ROTFLMAO!
        Zionists like me just shouldn’t be allowed to have this kind of fun!

      • (((James North)))
        April 5, 2017, 4:26 pm

        Mooser: Your sock-puppet got stuck into the Manischewitz again. Cut him off, please.

      • Steve Grover
        April 5, 2017, 5:21 pm

        JVP should fire Rebecca Vilkomerson too. After all, someone has gotta take responsibility for the disastrous decision of inviting Rasmea Odeh. They spent all that money at that expensive hotel and paid honoraria, travel expenses and accommodations for the speakers and then they invite Odeh who couldn’t be more of a PR disaster for JVP. And what do they have to show for it? Nothing. I apologize for sounding like a capitalist and looking at the bottom line.

      • Mooser
        April 5, 2017, 5:24 pm

        “Your sock-puppet got stuck into the Manischewitz again”

        Oh no. All day I’ve been praying God would bless and keep the Manischewitz, far away from “Grover”.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 5, 2017, 6:00 pm

        james, mooser, i find a certain satisfaction reading him flapping around pretending people take this hasbara pr seriously. ie, both odeh and sarsour are held in high esteem. while he pretends the zionist slander is effective, when progressive ears hear more boy crying wolf; hate, anti semitism, terrorist, yada yada yada. meanwhile we know who’s stealing land and slaughtering children.

      • Steve Grover
        April 5, 2017, 6:23 pm

        Annie,
        It is refreshing to me that you and your Israel hating fellow travelers are happy with JVP behaving like the childish amateurs that they are. As a result, Jews have nothing to worry about. The JVP current membership is a plateau and then declines will follow as a result of their mismanagement.
        Anyway, this has been mildly entertaining.

      • Annie Robbins
        April 5, 2017, 7:38 pm

        membership is a plateau and then declines will follow

        consulting your crystal ball now are we! enjoy, i am listening to judith butler right now:

        up next “Let’s talk about Zionism”, this should be interesting.

      • just
        April 5, 2017, 6:52 pm

        You’re so funny that you are ludicrous, Steve.

        I’ll just repost your drivel for posterity:

        “JVP should fire Rebecca Vilkomerson too. After all, someone has gotta take responsibility for the disastrous decision of inviting Rasmea Odeh. They spent all that money at that expensive hotel and paid honoraria, travel expenses and accommodations for the speakers and then they invite Odeh who couldn’t be more of a PR disaster for JVP. And what do they have to show for it? Nothing. I apologize for sounding like a capitalist and looking at the bottom line”. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2017/04/the-jewish-revolution/#sthash.vgpfLi5F.dpuf

        The problem is that you cannot listen, care, or give a dammmmmmmm about anyone other than those that ‘believe’ like you do. You can be and sound “like a capitalist” and still be a human.

        Or, you can choose to be an ardent and proud and terribly misguided Chicagoan Zionist and have all of your supposed human senses severed and replaced by your horrific ideology. Your “bottom line” is not my bottom line, thanks be to other caring people and humanists.

        Giggle away. Grover.

  18. JeffB
    April 5, 2017, 2:00 pm

    @Keith

    Prior to the Holocaust and extensive Zionist recruitment efforts, the vast majority of Jews opposed Zionism, relatively few made aliyah. Surely you are aware of this?

    Yes. I was quite explicitly talking about the majority of Yishuv / Israelis, which prior to the holocaust were a tiny fraction of the Jews.

    Keeping Jews in concentration camps so that they could be persuaded/forced to immigrate to Israel was a particularly dark chapter in Zionist history.

    Come on. Cut the paranoia. How did a small group of several hundred thousand Jews in Palestine force the allied powers to do that? The allies forced the immigration to Israel because they didn’t want their Jews. Zionism had nothing to do with, though it did benefit from it.

    If given a choice, most of these Jews preferred Britain or the US.

    Correct.

    Later, Soviet Jews frequently diverted to the US until the Zionists were able to better control them. Surely you are aware of all of this?

    Also correct.

    Your point about ANC South Africa is too confused to respond to.

    • Keith
      April 5, 2017, 9:19 pm

      JEFFB- “Come on. Cut the paranoia. How did a small group of several hundred thousand Jews in Palestine force the allied powers to do that? The allies forced the immigration to Israel because they didn’t want their Jews. Zionism had nothing to do with, though it did benefit from it.”

      The Zionist Jews in Palestine had the full support of American Jewish Zionists who wanted the displaced Jewish refugees to go to Palestine and nowhere else. There were plans to loosen immigration restrictions to permit these Jewish DPs to immigrate to the US, Britain, Canada and elsewhere, however, these plans were opposed by American and other Zionist Jews and dropped. Israel had agents in these camps who pressured DP Jews to go to Israel or else. This is well known and I am surprised that you are attempting to misrepresent reality so blatantly. For those not familiar with this sorry episode, I provide a few quotes and a link.

      “Morris Ernst, shocked, first refused to believe his leader and friend. He began to lobby among his influential Jewish friends for this world program of rescue, without mentioning the President’s or the British reaction. As he himself has put it: “I was thrown out of parlors of friends of mine who very frankly said ‘Morris, this is treason. You are undermining the Zionist movement.’ “ http://desip.igc.org/fromWhatPriceIsrael.html

      “As late as 1948 there were “between 100,000 and 114,000 displaced Jews in the American Zone of Germany. From among that group, more than 55,000 applications for emigration to the United States had been filed by the fall of 1947; and a majority of these people specified a preference of going anywhere but Palestine.” About this time, Rabbi Klausner, a U.S. Army rabbi, gave a report about the Jews in the DP camps to “the Zionist-controlled American Jewish Conference” in which he stated:

      “I am convinced that the people must be forced to go to Palestine…By ‘force’ I suggest a program…The first step in such a program…is the adoption of the principle that it is the conviction of the world Jewish community that these people must go to Palestine…Those who are not interested are no longer to be wards of the Jewish community to be maintained in camps, fed and clothed without their having to make any contribution to their own subsistence. To effect this program, it becomes necessary for the Jewish community at large to reverse its policy and instead of creating comforts for the Displaced Persons to make them as uncomfortable as possible.”

      The Yiddish Bulletin on May 19, 1950 wrote:

      “By pressing for an exodus of Jews from Europe; by insisting that Jewish D.P.s do not wish to go to any country outside of Israel; by not participating in the negotiations on behalf of the D.P.’s; and by refraining from a campaign of their own — by all this they [the Zionists] certainly did not help to open the gates of America for Jews. In fact, they sacrificed the interests of living people — their brothers and sisters who went through a world of pain — to the politics of their own movement.” http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/War/Zionist%20Leaders.htm

      • JeffB
        April 6, 2017, 10:42 am

        @Keith

        Don’t know whether you will see this since this thread is off the front page. We should probably take this up another time. But you are mixing up two very different things:

        a) American Zionist groups opposed resettlement outside of Palestine
        b) American Zionist groups were able to change what would otherwise have been allied policy on this issue.

        I agree with (a) not with (b). You are proving (a) not (b). The claim however was (b) not (a).

      • Keith
        April 6, 2017, 11:39 am

        JEFFB- “American Zionist groups were able to change what would otherwise have been allied policy on this issue.”

        By actively opposing efforts to change American immigration policy to permit the resettlement of Jews to the US, Britain, Canada and other Western states, the Zionists effectively DID change what would likely have been allied policy on this issue thus leaving these poor people no alternative but to immigrate to Palestine where they demonstrably did not want to go. These official efforts to change the laws to accommodate these displaced persons put the lie to your assertion that they were shunned by the West. Certainly not by the Roosevelt administration which was successfully opposed by the Zionists in order to prevent such an occurrence leaving these refugees no choice put to go to Palestine and engage in war against the Palestinians. American Jewish Zionist power was quite formidable at the time as evidenced by their successful efforts to get the US to push for the creation and recognition of the Jewish state of Israel. You are attempting to distort historical reality. Another quote for you.

        “In his book, In Days of Holocaust and Destruction, Yitzchak Greenbaum, Chairman of the (Zionist) Jewish Agency’s Rescue Committee in Jerusalem, wrote, “when they asked me, couldn’t you give money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of Jews in Europe, I said, ‘NO!’ and I say again, ‘NO!’…one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance.” In February, 1943, Greenbaum gave a speech in Tel Aviv on the subject, “The Diaspora and the Redemption” in which he said:

        “When they come to us with two plans — the rescue of the masses of Jews in Europe or the redemption of the land [settling Jews in Palestine — JS] — I vote, without a second thought, for the redemption of the land…If there would be a possibility today of buying packages of food with the money of the Keren Hayesod (United Jewish Appeal) to send it through Lisbon, would we do such a thing? No! and once again No!” (John Spritzler) http://www.newdemocracyworld.org/old/War/Zionist%20Leaders.htm

    • talknic
      April 6, 2017, 12:20 am

      @ JeffB April 5, 2017, 2:00 pm

      // Keeping Jews in concentration camps so that they could be persuaded/forced to immigrate to Israel was a particularly dark chapter in Zionist history//.

      “Come on. Cut the paranoia. How did a small group of several hundred thousand Jews in Palestine force the allied powers to do that? “

      The Zionist Movement has never been restricted to Palestine. In fact only one of the signatories to the Israeli declaration of statehood was from the region

      ” The allies forced the immigration to Israel because they didn’t want their Jews”

      Bullsh*t. All countries have restricted immigration especially while at war. It’s normal. Tho for some reason Zionists propagandists think Jews should be treated differently

      “Zionism had nothing to do with … “

      Sure and the earth is flat

  19. JeffB
    April 7, 2017, 6:48 am

    @Keith

    First off after the war Roosevelt is dead, there is no Roosevelt administration. Second, there was almost no USA government involvement in the creation of Israel. There wouldn’t have been a weapons embargo in the USA if Jews could have changed policy. They were evidently able to twist Truman’s arm to get him to agree to vote for the Soviet recognition in the UN but that took extraordinary effort to accomplish something that had little effect on the USA.

    As for not being willing to take in immigrants. The history of the USA… not taking in immigrants from the holocaust is well known. You would have to show a change in attitude. What’s happening with Syrian refugees today is pretty much the same story repeated. Some mild opposition to killing civilians verbally but no willingness to directly take in large numbers of them to save them.

    I guess you still are watching this thread. You are assuming the policy. What you would need to find

    • Keith
      April 7, 2017, 2:58 pm

      JEFFB- “First off after the war Roosevelt is dead, there is no Roosevelt administration”

      Roosevelt’s efforts on behalf of the Jewish DPs occurred before his death. His attempts were squelched by the Jewish Zionists.

      JEFFB- “Second, there was almost no USA government involvement in the creation of Israel.”

      Yet another intentional falsehood from you. I say intentional because your diversionary mention of the US arms embargo indicates you have some awareness of the actual events and are intentionally dissembling. Anyone even slightly familiar with the events is aware of the immense Jewish Zionist pressure which was brought to bear both inside and outside the US government. I provide two quotes to give others some indication both of the nature of what happened and of the extent of your misrepresentation of these same events.

      “And no pressure was sadder, or more cynical, than that put on the Philippines. General Romulo left the United States shortly after delivering his giery speech against partition. Ambassador Elizalde had spoken by telephone to President Roxas and told him of the pressures to which Romulo and the delegation had been subjected. The Ambassador’s own view was that, though partition was not a wise move, the United States was determined on partition. It would be foolish to vote against a policy so ardently desired by the U.S. Administration at a time when seven bills were pending in the U.S. Congress in which the islands had a tremendous stake. The Ambassador and President Roxas agreed (this was all subsequently reported in a lengthy cable from the U.S. Ambassador in Manila to the State Department that the Philippines must not risk the antagonism of the United States when support could be gained so easily by a proper vote on Palestine. A joint telegram from twenty-six pro-Zionist U.S. Senators, drafted by New York’s Robert F. Wagner, was a particularly important factor in changing the Philippine vote.

      That senatorial telegram, sent to twelve other U.N. delegations, changed four votes to yes, and seven votes from nay to abstention. Only Greece risked antagonizing the United States Senate, and stuck to no.” (p51-52, “What Price Israel?”, Alfred M. Lilienthal)

      “Although Palestinians had no representatives in the UN, and most of the other Arab states were still under colonialism, many UN delegates strongly criticized and opposed the plan. Twice the vote on the UN partition plan did not reach the required two thirds majority although a good deal of arm-twisting was applied on the smaller countries.

      To guarantee a majority on the third vote Zionist organizations resorted to the American administration to exercise economic and political pressure on other countries to change their vote for the plan (Alfred M. Lilienthal; What Price Israel?, p. 47). President Truman’s two top advisors; Bernard Baruch and David Niles, both Zionist Jews, were instrumental in this endeavor. Baruch threatened France and the Scandinavian Countries to withdraw desperately needed post-WWII American financial/economic aid if they don’t change their vote for the plan. France, originally, abstained from voting and supported alternative solutions including a single state with sufficient guarantees for minorities.

      Niles manipulated the rubber magnate Harvey Firestone to exercise economic pressure on Liberia to change its vote. Latin American delegates were advised that the Pan-American Highway Construction Project would be more likely to happen if they voted for the partition. Costa Rica’s President; Jose Figueres, was given a blank check book. Haiti and Philippines delegates changed their position 180 degrees and voted for the plan after Haiti was promised economic aid, while the Philippine was threatened by American Supreme Court Justice; Felix Frankfurter and President Truman’s advisor Clark Clifford to drop Philippines seven bills pending in Congress (Alison Weir, Against Our Better Judgment, p. 55).

      Although Sir Muhammad Zafrullah Khan; Pakistan’s Minister of Foreign Affairs in 1947 and the representative of the Arab World in the recently established UN, exposed in his speech at the UN that many countries were under American Zionist pressure to vote for the Partition Plan to create Israel, the Plan in the form of UN Resolution 181had passed.” http://stopdebezetting.org/?p=556

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