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They prayed for Gaza’s dead. Now it’s time to say the mourner’s prayer for Zionism

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I’ve seen the Jewish future in Britain and it looks good. The next generation of Jewish leadership showed up in Parliament Square on 16th May and gave their elders a lesson in Jewish ethics and how to avoid compromise, timidity and hypocrisy when faced with a clear case of atrocity. They also began the long haul to rescue Judaism, and the Jewish community in Britain, from the dead hand of Zionism.

At least I hope that’s what happened.

There’s a couple of more steps that need to be taken before today’s rebels become tomorrow’s leaders; and some big questions they need to face into before we can be confident about the potential for real change.

But I’m getting ahead of myself. First you need the details of what took place on a patch of grass opposite the Houses of Parliament.

‘Not my Judaism’

Two days after the massacre of 62 men, women and children on the Gaza border by Israeli snipers, the group of about 50 mostly young people calling themselves ‘Jews against the killing in Gaza’ stood in a circle to protest at what had just taken place in the name of Israeli security. They sang songs of peace and justice learnt in their synagogues and youth movements; they took turns to say why they felt the need to protest; and they held a banner which said: ‘Occupation is not my Judaism’.

Then they did something that outraged some sections of the Jewish community and turned the event into a media ‘cause celebre’ partly thanks to a video of the proceedings made by a group in opposition to the protesters called ‘Israel Advocacy Movement’.

Kaddish

Two of the young Jews, Rob Abrams and Rachel Diamond Hunter, took turns to read out the names of the Palestinian dead and then the whole group recited the Kaddish, the traditional Jewish prayer of mourning, led by Rabbi Leah Jordan.

The outrage factor was multiplied by the claim made a few hours earlier by a Hamas official that 50 of those killed on Monday 14th had been members of Hamas. For once, Israel and its advocates were happy to amplify the Hamas propaganda as it played perfectly with the terror narrative they’ve used for weeks to brand the ‘Great March of Return’ as a Hamas organised plot to invade Israel and murder Jews in their beds.

After the event ‘Jews against the killing in Gaza’ issued a statement via their facebook page explaining why they had said the Kaddish and what they were angry about:

“Angry at the Jewish establishment’s latest reaction to the violence. Angry at their blind support for IsraelAngry at them blaming Palestinians for their own deaths. Angry at their continued silencing of Palestinian voices. And angry at their continued moral, financial and political support for the Occupation and siege of Gaza, which deprive so many of their freedom.

“As community members of all ages, including Rabbis, community leaders, and elected members of the Board of Deputies, we wanted to say loud and clear that this did not represent us. Occupation is not our Judaism.”

Backlash

It didn’t take long for backlash to begin.

David Collier, a prominent right wing Zionist blogger published a ‘name and shame’ post which listed the main participants in the event, identified through the video, and their connections to the Jewish community. Several of those of those ‘outed’ by Collier work for Jewish organisations, in particular the youth movement RSY Netzer. Collier made it sound like those that said Kaddish were paedophiles rather than concerned Jews:

“Some of these people are involved in summer camps that work with children. I wouldn’t want my children near anyone who is connected with this, nor the organisations that allow them to act as ‘influencers’.”

Blog posts from those who took part in the Kaddish, such as Jake CohenRabbi Leah Jordan, and Nina Morris-Evans defending their actions, were most notable for the vitriol to be found in the comments being left by their detractors. The comment threads have now been deleted and closed. That’s how bad they got.

Not the usual suspects

What’s interesting about this group is that they are not the ‘usual suspects’ when it comes to UK Jewish opposition to Israel. They described themselves as “British Jews holding a variety of beliefs”. This was not the secular Jewish left, aligned to Jeremy Corbyn, and now organised as Jewish Voice for Labour. Nor were they the Jewish academics and actors/musicians that formed Independent Jewish Voices more than a decade ago or the signatories to Jews for Justice for Palestinians. Neither was this an event by Jewdas, the radical socialist Jews now getting a welcome higher profile thanks to Corbyn’s attendance at their communal Passover meal. No, this was something different although I suspect many of them may also be on the mailing lists and facebook pages of those other organisations.

There are good reasons why it’s taken time to see this Jewish generational divide on Israel begin to open up on this side of the Atlantic. It’s a question of the critical mass needed to create organisational capability. We are a small Jewish community in the United Kingdom, only around 350,000 individuals or 0.5% of the total population. So although there’s always been Jewish dissent on Israel in this country it’s struggled to build structures that could even begin to challenge the dominant view that says Israel is broadly blameless for the plight of the Palestinians.

The Holy Trinity of Jewish identity

So where to next for the Jewish rebels of Parliament Square?

The first thing they should recognise is that they are at the forefront of some hugely significant changes in attitude towards Israel emerging from young Jews living outside of the Jewish State. What started in America has finally made its way here.

Before the Second World War the main elements of Jewish identity could be summed up as: ‘God, Torah and the Jewish People’. Over the last 70 years a different ‘Jewish Holy Trinity’ has become dominant: ‘Holocaust remembrance, Antisemitism, and the State of Israel’. The new elements of the Trinity are closely interrelated historically, and at times completely interdependent politically.

For most Jews the Trinity has operated in perfect harmony. The Holocaust was caused by antisemitism and Israel was the noble endeavour that would guarantee that it would never happened again.

The problem for a new generation of Jews is that the Trinity has broken apart. Israel no longer looks like a just response to 2,000 years of Jewish oppression. Rather it looks like an Occupier and an Oppressor. While an older generation still hold tight to the mind-set that Jews remain powerless victims of an eternal hatred, a younger generation has become aware that we are now deeply empowered and must be held accountable.

Most of the young Jews who recited the Kaddish for those killed by Israeli snipers in Gaza have been raised within the Reform and Liberal end of the Jewish denominational spectrum. That’s not surprising since the tepid criticism of Israel that does occasionally break through from the Jewish establishment (when the Palestinian body count gets high enough) tends to come from that direction.

But for this new generation, all the emphasis on Jewish universal values of equality and justice which they learnt at home and synagogue and at the RSY Netzer youth movement, are clashing violently with how they see Israel behaving. So much so, that if they want to avoid the contradictions of their Jewish identity exploding within them, something has to give (or be given up). And it looks like Jewish ethics is winning out over Jewish nationalism.

The next stage of the journey

This is a journey I’ve been on myself and I know what has to happen next.

In the end you hit a moral brick wall if you try to hold on to the idea that the Jewish State of Israel, and the Zionist ideology that created it, is fundamentally a ‘good thing’ that’s temporarily lost its way but can be redeemed if enough right minded people act together.

This framing of the situation starts to crumble once the Jewish ethics of compassion, justice and equality, inspired by the Hebrew prophets, makes a full on encounter with the Palestinian experience of violent dispossession and national ethnic cleansing.

Saying Kaddish for Zionism

Today’s Jewish rebels could become the nucleus of a future Jewish leadership that understands that to move on we must let go of some old ideas that have not turned out as well as some had first hoped.

Whether they choose to call themselves ‘post Zionist’ or ‘non Zionist’ or ‘anti Zionist’ doesn’t much matter. What’s important is to articulate a Jewish future that’s not full of moral compromise and hypocrisy created by the need to defend a Jewish State built on a colonial enterprise disguised as Jewish continuity.

That means saying Kaddish for Zionism.

The further question to be asked is whether this potential new generation of Jewish leadership can take their place within established bodies that are so wedded to Zionism, including Liberal and Reform Judaism and their youth movement?

I have a favourite Leonard Cohen lyric that sums up my thinking on this:

They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom
For trying to change the system from within
I’m coming now, I’m coming to reward them
First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin

In the States it’s starting to look like new, alternative community organisations are emerging including non Zionist synagogues such as Tzedek Chicago.  This looks like a more fruitful strategy than attempting a coup at the Board of Deputies.

What one American writer has termed ‘Trouble in the Tribe’ has come to Britain and the much needed fracturing of the immoral Jewish consensus on Israel has begun.

So warm regards and best wishes to the next generation of Jewish leaders. Yasher Koach! May you have strength!

This post first appeared on the Patheos site. 

About Robert Cohen

Cohen is a British writer. He blogs at Micah's Paradigm Shift. http://micahsparadigmshift.blogspot.co.uk/

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79 Responses

  1. just
    May 25, 2018, 4:17 pm

    I have to admit that I recoiled a bit when reading the title, Robert. See, I think that prayers of mourning are for those that were alive and now are dead. I never thought, or think, of political movements, including Zionism, that way. I would celebrate the end to such an odious movement~ just as people celebrated the end of Nazism and Fascism.

    Then I read your article and appreciate your thoughts and pov. Good luck on your journey.

  2. eljay
    May 25, 2018, 7:36 pm

    Like any other form of injustice and immorality, Zionism needs a swift kick in the ass on its way out.

    … for this new generation, all the emphasis on Jewish universal values of equality and justice which they learnt at home and synagogue and at the RSY Netzer youth movement, are clashing violently with how they see Israel behaving. …

    The fact that – according to Zionists – most Jews support Jewish supremacism in/and a religion-supremacist “Jewish State” in as much as possible of Palestine indicates that equality and justice are not – or at least are not consistently – “Jewish universal values”.

    Equality and justice are, however, values that many people – Jews and non-Jews alike, here on MW and elsewhere – do respect and advocate.

    • Citizen
      May 26, 2018, 8:55 am

      No question in my mind at this point that Equality under state law & Justice are the way to go; if I have to fight Jews wedded to the Zionist insurance policy, with premium paid by historically innocent Palestinians I do, and will–until I’m dead.

  3. Eve Human
    May 26, 2018, 8:46 am

    Thank God for this good example.
    The only way for Israel to change its brutal policies is by pressure from the outside, pressure by the BDS movement is important but even more effective will be the pressure from Jewish community throughout the world.
    Israel must be de-zionised, just like Germany had to be de-nazified after 1945.
    German leaders had to bow down before memorials of Nazi-victims, begging humbly for forgiveness for all the Nazi war-crimes and crimes against humanity.
    And so must one-day Jewish representatives of a united Israeli-Palestinian nation bow down before a Nabka memorial.
    That will be necessary for healing of both the Palestinian and the Jewish people.

    • catalan
      May 26, 2018, 9:55 am

      “The only way for Israel to change its brutal policies is by pressure from the outside, pressure by the BDS movement” Eve
      BDS worked in South Africa and is working in Israel. It’s only a matter of time, probably a few years at most. Just like in the United States, progressives will rule in a few years (Bernie is winning in 2020, no doubt). A much better world is arriving.

      • echinococcus
        May 26, 2018, 11:33 am

        Well, Mister Catalan, if you’d really believe the immortal nonsense that just ‘pressure” by so-called peaceful boycotts will be enough to unseat the Zionist abomination, you’d be the only one (also among those who state that nonsense in so many words.) Hard to know, though, considering the level of understanding you’ve been displaying.

  4. Keith
    May 26, 2018, 12:23 pm

    ROBERT COHEN- “What’s important is to articulate a Jewish future….”

    Why is it that all or almost all Jewish anti-Zionists are so Judeocentric? Why is maintaining kinship solidarity such a priority? Why is most Jewish anti-Zionism so tribal in nature, support for Zionism and Israel replaced by opposition to Zionism and Israeli actions, yet serving the same solidarity function? If Zionism and Israel did not exist, what would replace Zionist/anti-Zionist solidarity? It is apparently important to you to avoid the dreaded melting pot.

    • catalan
      May 28, 2018, 5:05 pm

      “Zionism has provided material benefits for Zionist Jews,” Keith
      I can attest to that and wholeheartedly so; I don’t think that a little boy from a working class part of Sofia would have been able to get to where I am without Zionism. My love for Israel has helped me in getting a decent position and life in the States. Had I been a non-Zionist shmoe, I would have probably been a cab driver in Munich. I always wonder, how do non Zionists even survive?

      • Keith
        May 28, 2018, 7:20 pm

        CATALAN- “Had I been a non-Zionist shmoe, I would have probably been a cab driver in Munich.”

        Are the folks in Munich aware of how lucky they are that things worked out the way they did? And what is it with you Zionists settling in Germany?

  5. Robert Cohen
    May 26, 2018, 1:42 pm

    Hi Keith, I use the phrase “articulate a Jewish future” because I’m Jewish, I’m happy to be Jewish, and I believe there is personal value in being part of a community with shared history and traditions. You choose to characterise this as “Judeocentric” which sounds pejorative. I don’t see kinship and solidarity as something necessarily bad. Would you call someone “Muslimcentric” for caring about the actions and behaviour of their community? I also use this phrase because I’m addressing other Jews on an issue that dominates Jewish thinking. Obviously, I’m highly critical of the position many (most) Jews take in regard to Israel. I want a “Jewish future” that is not dependent on Zionism for its collective identity. But neither do I want a collective Jewish identity that becomes merely ‘anti-Zionism’.

    • Keith
      May 26, 2018, 4:40 pm

      ROBERT COHEN- “… because I’m Jewish….”

      What makes you Jewish? Your mother? Your religion? What? Are you trying to salvage Judaism or maintain ethnic solidarity? How and why do the “shared history and traditions” of British Jews differ so markedly from the shared history and traditions of British non-Jews? Would it be so terrible if Judaism became just another religion and not associated with ethnicity? Of course, the birthright factor rather prevents this.

      ROBERT COHEN- “I don’t see kinship and solidarity as something necessarily bad.”

      It depends upon the nature of the kinship and the extent of the solidarity. Surely you don’t approve of sectarianism? Your “Muslimcentric” example is disingenuous. For starters, Islam is a religion, not a pseudo ethnicity. Also, there is no Muslim counterpart to the Conference of Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations, nor to the disproportionate influence Jews have throughout the corridors of power, the media, and the entire doctrinal system. Influence and power greatly facilitated by Zionist solidarity and organized power-seeking.

      ROBERT COHEN- “You choose to characterise this as “Judeocentric” which sounds pejorative.”

      How else to describe the extremely narrow focus of your article? It is written for a people apart. It also includes Judeo-Zionist myth history. I went into this a bit in my first comment which didn’t pass moderation. Suffice it to say that the belief in irrational and eternal anti-Semitism is anti-Gentile to the core.

      ROBERT COHEN- “I want a “Jewish future” that is not dependent on Zionism for its collective identity.”

      You have just made my point! You are not interested in a Reform Judaism future, nor a Conservative Judaism future, nor an Orthodox Judaism future, nor a secular “raised Jewish” future, you want a united by birthright “Jewish” future which finds an alternative to Zionism as a unifier of all Jews and of “Jewish” solidarity. Do you believe in Jewish peoplehood?

      • Robert Cohen
        May 27, 2018, 7:50 am

        Wow! This is a pretty harsh comment forum. Everywhere else I get called a self-hating Jew but here I’m a right wing tribal reactionary. Interesting!

      • gamal
        May 27, 2018, 8:56 am

        “Holy Trinity of Jewish Identity” shit man the Christians really got to you, that was uncalled for

        “Everywhere else I get called a self-hating Jew”

        “This is a pretty harsh comment forum”

        In these days of the Gaza Fence you’re flippancy makes me think Robert how can you hate yourself when you don’t even know yourself, never met him.

        “God, the Torah and the Jewish people”, I have always thought that if you were going to hyphenate Zionism with anything it should be with white racism or European Genocidal Settler Colonialism-Zionism, rather than with Judeo..”trinity”..?

        thats a bigger more permissive club than the warm embrace of the Jewish community, as an aside the people who call you “self-hating” call me and people like me less than human irrationally murderous doomed to wallow in our low IQ morally worthless lives and having no right to ownership of anything, just as well I am too hardcore to give a shit about the attitudes of phoney moral and spiritual weaklings like you, you going to have to find a new way to talk to the victims of the crimes of you and your community,

        Its time you look in to the astonishing tolerance you have for the grave crimes you at very least let pass with little resistance, every member of your community is hanging on the Gaza Fence, Judaism is dying because of cowardice, with your arses on silk you think you have forever to muse about to what extent you destroy our lives and being…it is about you understanding that it is not about you but your victims, two ears one mouth.

        there is a sufi saying “what you can do for yourself, do it…what can only be done by others allow them to do it”

        “Today’s Jewish rebels could become the nucleus of a future Jewish leadership that understands that to move on we must let go of some old ideas that have not turned out as well as some had first hoped”

        you had better start talking to and supporting Palestinians you have so fucked up the Jewish community that without the help of the Palestinians you are lost, i guess you can see that now it is obvious, perhaps they would like to hear of all you have suffered for your excellent principles or you could look in to finding another way to talk,

        write to Ahed Tamimi she has free time nothing to do, She could give you some pointers on how to deal with hardcore shit, she has angel eyes.

      • Robert Cohen
        May 27, 2018, 10:22 am

        Gemal: “Its time you look in to the astonishing tolerance you have for the grave crimes you at very least let pass with little resistance”

        If that a direct reference to me I’m struggling to see where you find the evidence.

      • Yonah Fredman
        May 27, 2018, 10:27 am

        gamal- your indictment of all jews for their moral weakness has been noted. care to explain the poor state of the arab world in 2018? all the fault of the zionists and the colonialists? why so backwards? it’s not I.Q. but something is amiss. what needs to change?

        my theory: the arab world has been on its heels since the mongol invasion and has yet to bounce back. that’s 800 years of backwardness. tough to recover overnight.

        back to the gaza fence for a moment. even rabin’s attitude towards gaza proves how deep seated the problem is. israel somehow expected the refugee problem to solve itself. without a context of a future there is a difficulty that manifests itself in the current tense. because i cannot solve it, i try to put it into context. but the imprisonment of gaza is nothing that i can explain away and it is a fact that needs to be faced.

      • gamal
        May 27, 2018, 11:35 am

        “your indictment of all jews for their moral weakness has been noted”

        “my theory: the arab world has been on its heels since the mongol invasion and has yet to bounce back. that’s 800 years of backwardness. tough to recover overnight” but thats not really a theory is it?

        “but the imprisonment of gaza is nothing that i can explain away and it is a fact that needs to be faced” which one are you going to use for that?

        “care to explain the poor state of the arab world in 2018?” or Africa? or Iraq? South East Asia was in a mess some time ago, do you know why?

        You don’t need any help with indictment Yonah, thats not weakness thats racism pure and simple, face up to it sooner rather than later.

      • Donald Johnson
        May 27, 2018, 12:35 pm

        “This is a pretty harsh comment forum. “

        Pretty much. I wouldn’t worry about it. You oppose Israeli apartheid— that’s the important thing. A handful of people here have various other axes to grind.

      • echinococcus
        May 27, 2018, 1:38 pm

        Johnson,

        “Israel” Apartheid is not the only thing to be opposed about Zionism. That may be your opinion and you’re welcome to it –very welcome to doing that, too. As you well know, many supporters of Palestinian rights have a series of other, serious grievances, with sometimes a different order of priorities.

      • gamal
        May 27, 2018, 1:46 pm

        “You oppose Israeli apartheid” and so don’t need to support Palestinians

        “A handful of people here have various other axes to grind”

        sure but I don’t think tribally, racially, denominationally, communally, nationally not even personally really and I am not waiting for a great new beginning, not another one..

        An Irish TD in Dail Eireann quotes some words of serving Israeli ministers,

        sure you anti-Apartheid and pro-nothing, how liberal is your Zionism..let me count the ways, incidentally members of Hamas are also subject to these inhuman policies but you got your axe ground and sharp for them, don’t you? the Dail a million times better than your lame Houses.

      • Mooser
        May 27, 2018, 2:09 pm

        “Everywhere else I get called a self-hating Jew but here I’m a right wing tribal reactionary. Interesting!”

        You got me there, “Robert”. I was thinking “Look, it’s “Jon s” but with polish and a better grasp of liberal sensibilities.”

      • Donald Johnson
        May 27, 2018, 3:33 pm

        “Israel apartheid” was my shorthand for all the crimes the Israelis have committed against the Palestinians, beginning with the terrorist campaign— well, no, beginning with the Balfour declaration where Jews were granted more rights by the British than the Palestinians living in their own homeland. Well, actually, even before that.

        By other agendas I mean people who think that a Jew taking pride in their Jewish heritage is a threat to universal human values or whatever. I don’t agree. You can argue about whether there is a universal Jewish heritage or about the value of religion or anything else you want to argue about, but that’s a different ax that is being ground.

      • just
        May 27, 2018, 4:52 pm

        Thanks for posting the link to Richard Boyd Barrett, gamal. The 2 featured in the video appear to be mannequins…

        Just last night I was reading from Sadaka’s website and listening to Marie Crawley. It is remarkable how other countries and their citizens remain disgracefully silent while Ireland has a vibrant voice that speaks and stands in solidarity with Palestinians and Palestine, and are openly honest and critical of Israel’s continued horrors.

        Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn is being vilified and witch- hunted for expressing his committment to Palestinian human rights and freedom…

        I found an interesting article in The Guardian yesterday that I found important. It might be of interest to some:

        “US liberal Islamophobia is rising – and more insidious than rightwing bigotry

        We must not ignore the spread of leftists who preach that Islam is inimical to liberal values

        Khaled A Beydoun”

        https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/26/us-liberal-islamophobia-rising-more-insidious

        Thanks again, gamal.

      • Mooser
        May 27, 2018, 4:55 pm

        ” that’s 800 years of backwardness”

        Gosh, “Yonah”, I’m not sure if a group as small as us Jews, which has been steadily losing ground demographically, should go around calling other people ‘backwards’.
        Maybe we should at least get to replacement level before we do that.

      • Keith
        May 27, 2018, 8:55 pm

        ROBERT COHEN- “Wow! This is a pretty harsh comment forum.”

        This is a Judeocentric website which severely restricts comments dealing with Jews and Jewishness. My comment which you initially responded to was a follow on comment when my original, longer comment didn’t pass moderation. I am somewhat surprised that my second published comment passed moderation. On this particular subject, I walk on egg shells. Interestingly, other commenters using intemperate language do get published. Go figure.

        ROBERT COHEN- ” Everywhere else I get called a self-hating Jew….”

        If that happens again, tell them that Keith at Mondoweiss says that you don’t have a self-hating bone in your entire body.

        ROBERT COHEN- “… but here I’m a right wing tribal reactionary.”

        “Right-wing” and “reactionary” are your words, not mine. My sole critique of your article was that you had a narrow Judeocentric focus. And you do, even though you can’t conceive of it. You are like a white guy who can’t conceive of the racism staring him in the face. Not long ago, Phil extolled our current “post racial” society. What a crock!

        Let me be optimistic and continue this in the hope that it does pass moderation. Israel Shahak maintained that Zionism was a reversion to Classical (medieval) Judaism in secular form. The modern era saw the splintering of Judaism into Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism, Reform Judaism and secular Jews/ex-Jews. A common religion no longer united the tribe, and assimilation had great appeal. The Zionist answer was a re-united Jewish “people” utilizing a Jewish version of Blood and Soil nationalism. And while you say you oppose Zionism, you seem to approve of Zionism’s goal of a united Jewish people practicing kinship solidarity (versus non-Jews) based upon some unifying criteria other than Zionism. No? Strong Jewish kinship solidarity in the midst of non-Jewish multiculturalism. No?

        In my last comment, I made several observations which you ignored. I think the last paragraph is the most important. Why should secular Jews, Reform Jews, Conservative Jews and Orthodox Jews make common cause? Why seek to counter the Jewish reformation? Also, you seem to have imbibed a lot of Zionist myth-history. I leave you with some advice from Israel Shahak.

        “Therefore, the real test facing both Israeli and diaspora Jews is the test of their self-criticism which must include the critique of the Jewish past. The most important part of such a critique must be detailed and honest confrontation of the Jewish attitude to non-Jews.” (p103, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion,” Israel Shahak)

      • Donald Johnson
        May 28, 2018, 8:20 am

        Keith, why does any of that matter? I am going to assume for the sake of argument that you have a deep understanding of Jewish history, which I do not. I sort of doubt you do. But lots of people belong to groups with history and traditions of which they are proud— sometimes the history is romanticized or mythical. So long as they don’t claim a license to start violating other people’s rights, why does it matter? In some cases the tradition might even urge people to be compassionate. Then it is a good thing, isn’t it?

      • gamal
        May 28, 2018, 10:33 am

        “Keith, why does any of that matter? I am going to assume for the sake of argument that you have a deep understanding of Jewish history, which I do not”

        no need to go to that extent

        ” I sort of doubt you do” shit whats with Americans you can’t be trusted with treaties nor with your own freely entered in to assumptions, slippery customers.

        “But lots of people belong to groups with history and traditions of which they are proud—”

        I was once a stalwart of Streatham and Croydon Rugby Club, we would get drunk before the game and lose badly with many injuries it was a proud tradition which we never violated.

        “sometimes the history is romanticized or mythical” if you can arrange enough platitudes in a straight line thats yatzee isn’t it

        “So long as they don’t claim a license to start violating other people’s rights”

        there is this site Mondoweiss it has a column by the wonderful Kate, it may not be for you She uses the word Palestinian quite regularly even though they are fly in the ointment of Anti-Aparthiedism,

        “why does it matter?” can i refer you to your concluding observation…

        “In some cases the tradition might even urge people to be compassionate. Then it is a good thing, isn’t it?”

        without lying to yourself which “tradition” did you have in mind, ones you don’t know anything about perhaps? or ones you recognise all too well,

        I am much sought after to teach the compassion practices associated with certain ngondro cycles, I am very strict with my students and I can tell Donald that in your usage compassion is but an empty word, comforting and useless compassion is hard Donald tears at the very foundation of self and its morbid self- cherishing, i only consider people with 20 years or more consistent practise experience, the last two both German cracked up had to leave early, its tough.

        like Jonny Osbourne sings “go to Church on Sunday no love in your heart on Monday”

        why does it matter ask a Palestinian, your own heart or Avalokiteshvara

        I pay homage to Noble Avalokiteśvara, recalling his qualities:
        Forever joyful at the happiness of others,
        And plunged into sorrow whenever they suffer,
        You have fully realized Great Compassion, with all its qualities,
        And abide, without a care for your own happiness or suffering!

        om mani peme hung hri

      • Mooser
        May 28, 2018, 1:16 pm

        “Donald Johnson” asks: “Keith, why does any of that matter? . So long as they don’t claim a license to start violating other people’s rights, why does it matter?”

        I think “Nathan” gave a very good answer to that question:

        “The Jewish communities in the west tried to present to themselves a type of Jewish life that is “only religion”. The peoplehood aspect of the Jewish experience was abandoned – and Jewish community life was really quite boring. The centrality of Israel in today’s Jewish life (whether one is pro or con) is proof of the fact that Jewish religious life is simply not enough content (most Jews are quite irreligious). Political activism around Israel served as a reminder that the Jews wish to participate in Jewish history.”

        What do you do when you have an “boring” community life, and a religion with “not enough content” (? Judaism?). You turn yourself into a political force. Makes perfect sense.

        Shorter “Nathan”: ‘What good is being Jewish if you don’t get something out of it?’

      • Donald Johnson
        May 28, 2018, 2:29 pm

        Thanks for pointing that Nathan paragraph out, Mooser. So he thinks people support Israel because they need something to fill the emptiness of their lives. Maybe Nathan should be a front page poster.

      • Keith
        May 28, 2018, 3:33 pm

        DONALD JOHNSON- “Keith, why does any of that matter?”

        It matters because the resurrection of a form of Jewish “peoplehood,” is a return to a form of manufactured sectarianism in our multicultural society which has negative consequences for society. This is a return to an aspect of medieval social structure in modern guise, not nearly as innocent as you pretend.

        Zionism has functioned as a power-seeking ideology for American Jews. It has provided group support for acquiring wealth and power to implement the Zionist agenda of the creation of the Jewish state along with the advancement of specifically Jewish interests. The Conference of the Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations exists to promote Jewish interests, period. The welfare of the non-Jewish citizenry is of little concern. The strength of these organizations comes from their unity and solidarity, currently based upon Zionism and support for Israel. Should a way be found to replace Zionism and Israel with a new foundation for Jewish communal solidarity, then these powerful groups and related wealthy and powerful individuals would provide the basis for ongoing birthright power and privilege. This kinship solidarity results in a form of de facto nepotism where different ethnic groups become associated with specific jobs and social strata.

        Zionism has provided material benefits for Zionist Jews, but has had negative consequences for everyone else, and has been an unmitigated disaster for the Palestinians. I am opposed to efforts to find an alternative to Zionism to provide Jews with an ideological tool for achieving psychological apartheid from their non-Jewish neighbors. Creating a form of birthright professional association to advance the interests of the group vis a vis society as a whole. Nothing prevents Jews from practicing any of the various forms of the Judaic religion, nor performing folk dances and eating ethnic food to celebrate “tradition.” Zionism is inherently anti-Gentile and any substitute for Zionism will also be inherently anti-Gentile if it is to be successful in promoting strong group solidarity. How could it be otherwise when non-Jews are by definition “the other?” One has only to observe the obsession with perceived anti-Semitism by Zionist Jews and anti-Zionist Jews alike to see what I mean.

        And Donald, your gratuitous ad hominem swipe at me was rather childish.

      • Mooser
        May 28, 2018, 5:41 pm

        “Zionism has functioned as a power-seeking ideology for American Jews.” “Keith”

        You left out, probably due to haste, which is perfectly understandable, the word “some” or “certain” before “American Jews”. We’ll take it as understood.

      • Donald Johnson
        May 28, 2018, 5:55 pm

        Keith, if by gratuitous swipe you meant that I doubt you are an expert on Jewish history, I meant it. I doubt you are an expert. It would require a tremendous amount of reading and your attitude is so critical I think it would get in the way. I would say the same about any group of people one wishes to try to understand. You need to have some degree of empathy unless the group you are studying is pure evil, so to speak, and even then, if one were studying Nazis, for example, you still need to get inside their heads.

        On this subject my impression of antiZionist Jews who strongly identify as Jews is that they value their religion and/ or traditions and think the oppression of the Palestinians is horrible, immoral, and inconsistent with those traditions. That’s good. Could they form some new sort of ideology that will lead to oppression? I suppose, but that is true of everyone. I am going to be flippant about this, which will probably annoy you, but seriously, I am just not that concerned about what seem like a very remote possibility.

      • Keith
        May 28, 2018, 6:07 pm

        MOOSER- “You left out, probably due to haste, which is perfectly understandable, the word “some” or “certain” before “American Jews”.

        Point taken. Change to read “Zionism has functioned as a power-seeking ideology for American Jewish Zionists.”

      • echinococcus
        May 28, 2018, 6:45 pm

        On this subject my impression of antiZionist Jews who strongly identify as Jews is that they value their religion and/ or traditions and think the oppression of the Palestinians is horrible, immoral, and inconsistent with those traditions. That’s good. Could they form some new sort of ideology that will lead to oppression?

        but they have it already: call it “fake peoplehood” or “mythical nationalism”, it does necessarily lead to oppression and it’s not just by chance that this twin of Aryan phylonationalism has produced Zionism.

        It is by definition not at all about religion, as long as the non-religious are part of it; there are no pan-Jewish “traditions” outside religion, and the myth of of any such “traditions” is a Zionist-invented lie.

      • Keith
        May 28, 2018, 7:01 pm

        DONALD JOHNSON- “Keith, if by gratuitous swipe you meant that I doubt you are an expert on Jewish history, I meant it. I doubt you are an expert.”

        First, you falsely claim to assume that I have a “deep understanding” (not necessarily an “expert”) of Jewish history which you don’t (humble you). Then you flip flop and say that I don’t have a deep understanding of Jewish history (hardly essential for me to comment). The implication of this being what? This is your disingenuous way of raising the issue of credentials, is it not? You infer that a deep understanding of Jewish history is required, then say you doubt I possess such an understanding. Gamal noticed the same thing. It was gratuitous because it was unnecessary. You could have simply asked your questions and then responded to my answers. And if you doubt my credentials to respond, why bother to ask the questions?

        And how do you respond? First by changing “deep understanding” to “expert,” which I never said nor implied I was. What, we need to be experts to comment on Mondoweiss? Then you say that my critical attitude would get in the way of expertise, another judgmental and irrelevant observation. You also imply that I lack empathy, a totally unwarranted insult. Nowhere in either of your comments do you specifically address anything I said, relying instead ad hominem arguments. You don’t appear interested in actually discussing the points raised, preferring instead to refer to your fellow commenters as people with “axes to grind.”

      • Donald Johnson
        May 29, 2018, 8:30 am

        Actually Keith,what I was trying to do was suggest that theorizing so much about any group of people is usually a mistake. I would say the same to people who talk about Christians or Muslims or any other group in a critical way. I have a friend in real life who does this with Christians. We agree on other things, as I agree with you on other things. But not this.

        I’ll drop it, as this conversation isn’t doing any good.

      • Keith
        May 29, 2018, 10:33 am

        DONALD JOHNSON- “Actually Keith,what I was trying to do was suggest that theorizing so much about any group of people is usually a mistake.”

        Really? Then why bother to ask me questions if you feel that discussing relevant issues is a mistake? So, instead of joining in the discussion, you engage in ad hominem attacks against those you mischaracterize as “theorizing.” Unlike you, I think that the Mondoweiss comments section, although frequently too much akin to social media, is nonetheless of tremendous value. There is a lot to be gained through honest discussion with your fellows, to compare ideas and observations, and be exposed to new information, ideas and perspectives. This is particularly true concerning the impact that modernity had on the traditional role of Jews in medieval society, and how Zionism is a response to those changes. Also, the consequences of a manufactured “peoplehood” with strong internal solidarity and kinship in a multicultural society such as ours. In fact, I would go so far as to say that discussing and being aware of relevant issues affecting the political economy is an obligation of citizenship. And one needs to be able to analyze and form opinions as responsible individuals and not rely upon official “experts.”

      • Mooser
        May 29, 2018, 11:27 am

        “Keith”, I see no reason why opinion and analysis of Jewish history and present shouldn’t be as diverse as it is about any US minority.

      • echinococcus
        May 29, 2018, 1:26 pm

        Mooser,

        Statistics for evaluation (called “inferential” because they draw conclusions about groups of things) can be described as the definition of a significant number of observations. Any opposition to Zionism among people who continue to call themselves “Jewish” is insignificant as yet. Come back when the exception becomes significant.

      • Mooser
        May 29, 2018, 3:15 pm

        ” Come back when the exception becomes significant.”

        I’m sorry “echin”, I wasn’t clear. I’m not asking for any exceptions. More the opposite.

      • echinococcus
        May 29, 2018, 7:05 pm

        Mooser,

        You caught me “seriousing” again. Or then, you sometimes bury that tongue 6-foot-deep in your cheek.

    • Mooser
      May 26, 2018, 6:38 pm

      “Would you call someone “Muslimcentric” for caring about the actions and behaviour of their community?”

      Whatabouting the Muslims, that always works.

    • echinococcus
      May 26, 2018, 6:59 pm

      Cohen

      a community with shared history and traditions

      The fact that you can write such utter nonsense with a straight face disqualifies you from serious discussion. Looks like you don’t get the difference between the singular (a community with shared history and traditions) and the plural (several separate and well distinct “communities” with each its own history and traditions.)

      Or perhaps you are the surprise guy who after so many years can present a cultural, linguistic, etc. common element, I am saying one single element of history or “tradition” that is not strictly religious/liturgical, between what you call “communities” (translation to generalworldese: ethnic or cultural distinct groups.)

      Let’s see. Meanwhile, your in-your-face stone-age tribal mythonationalism is not even worth replying to. The only difference with its twin, Zionism, is that you are not occupying and massacring Palestinians or Patagonians (of course a big difference from the victims’point of view.)

      • Robert Cohen
        May 27, 2018, 7:53 am

        So I’m guessing you have no time either for the young Jews I’ve written about in the post?

    • Mooser
      May 27, 2018, 4:33 pm

      “Hi Keith, I use the phrase “articulate a Jewish future” because I’m Jewish”

      The idea that anything we might have done maybe sorta disqualifies us from “articulating a Jewish future” doesn’t occur to you?

    • Nathan
      May 27, 2018, 8:26 pm

      Robert Cohen – It would be interesting to hear a description of the Jewish future that is not dependent on Israel. Quite often, one hears your grievance that the Jewish community in the Diaspora is focused on Israel; yet, one never hears the details of the plan that the Diaspora should adopt. I don’t think that there is any such plan.

      Keith opposes the phenomenon of Jewish solidarity, and it’s hard to understand why he would care if others wish to express a sense of “tribalism”. However, he is right when he points out to you that Jewish anti-Zionism and Jewish support for Israel are of the same nature: Both are a tool for expressing a Jewish identity. In other words, Israel is the “only show in town” in contemporary Jewish history.

      The Jewish communities in the west tried to present to themselves a type of Jewish life that is “only religion”. The peoplehood aspect of the Jewish experience was abandoned – and Jewish community life was really quite boring. The centrality of Israel in today’s Jewish life (whether one is pro or con) is proof of the fact that Jewish religious life is simply not enough content (most Jews are quite irreligious). Political activism around Israel served as a reminder that the Jews wish to participate in Jewish history.

      • Keith
        May 27, 2018, 9:14 pm

        NATHAN- “Keith opposes the phenomenon of Jewish solidarity, and it’s hard to understand why he would care if others wish to express a sense of “tribalism”.

        Because I prefer multicultrualism to sectarianism. And I find it interesting that historically, organized Jewry pushed for “liberal” immigration policies and for assimilation of ethnic minorities while simultaneously stressing Jewish peoplehood. In the US, that is. Jewish policy in Israel speaks for itself.

      • eljay
        May 28, 2018, 7:37 am

        || Nathan: … The centrality of Israel in today’s Jewish life (whether one is pro or con) is proof of the fact that Jewish religious life is simply not enough content … ||

        So…when Judaism ceases to provide “enough content” for people who have chosen to embrace the religion-based identity of Jewish, the logical next step is to embrace a particular brand of militarism, colonialism and supremacism. Interesting.

      • Mooser
        May 28, 2018, 12:22 pm

        ” The centrality of Israel in today’s Jewish life (whether one is pro or con) is proof of the fact that Jewish religious life is simply not enough content (most Jews are quite irreligious).

        ROTFLMSJAO!! Of course, whether we have the population and political resources to make it work is irrelevant.

        “Political activism around Israel served as a reminder that the Jews wish to participate in Jewish history.”

        You bet, “Nathan”! See you at the Masadadammerung!

      • Nathan
        May 28, 2018, 10:19 pm

        Keith – You prefer “multiculturalism” and you reject to “stressing Jewish peoplehood” – but actually one could conclude that stressing one’s particular peoplehood is an expression of multiculturalism. I suppose that we don’t share a common understanding of the term “multiculturalism”, but surely it should be self-evident that Jews defining themselves as a people are in essence preserving their ancient cultural outlook. Assimilation of ethnic minorities is the antithesis of multiculturalism. In the process of assimilation, one loses one’s distinctive culture.

        Anyway, I can’t imagine why you would care that others see the world differently. The Jews have an ancient peoplehood identity, and apparently this identity is important to them. It turns out – as you yourself noticed – that this peoplehood identity is central for both the pro-Israel and the anti-Israel Jews. (There are plenty of books in the library entitled “The History of the Jewish People”, so apparently there is a phenomenon throughout the centuries of “stressing Jewish peoplehood”).

      • Maghlawatan
        May 28, 2018, 11:33 pm

        “Jews defining themselves as a people are in essence preserving their ancient cultural outlook”

        That sounds nice in theory. Nation building doesn’t work like that in practice. What is cultural identity? For Israel it had to be invented because there was no one size to fit all.
        It was based on
        -The myths of Masada and the Jewish Kingdoms
        -Opposition to anything Muslim
        -The delusion that the Palestinian peoplr does not exist
        -Absolutes such as hasbara

        The whole thing is a crock of shit. IF you iterated 3000 years of Jewish life through a supercomputer 75 trillion tImes the answer would not be Beitar Jerusalem. Not even close.

        https://youtu.be/GJOV_cN-JP8

        It would be more like a recipe involving schmaltz.

      • Keith
        May 29, 2018, 12:23 am

        NATHAN- “…but actually one could conclude that stressing one’s particular peoplehood is an expression of multiculturalism.”

        Only if one is engaged in pilpul. Traditions is one thing, peoplehood another. The emphasis on peoplehood – psychological apartheid – is the essence of sectarianism, not multiculturalism. Your comment is intellectually dishonest to the core.

        NATHAN- “Anyway, I can’t imagine why you would care that others see the world differently.”

        More pilpul. I am not concerned with individual perceptions, I am concerned with organized Zionist power-seeking. Have I not made that clear?

        NATHAN- ” In the process of assimilation, one loses one’s distinctive culture.”

        Bullshit. Unless anti-Gentilism is a distinctive part of Zionist “culture.”

      • Mooser
        May 29, 2018, 12:01 pm

        And everybody remember, when Jews decide we are a “nation”, we are entitled to all the protection for our nation-building project as we are for our worship and religious traditions!

      • Mooser
        May 29, 2018, 3:41 pm

        ” It would be interesting to hear a description of the Jewish future that is not dependent on Israel.”

        Oh, the Jewish future is very dependent on Israel. First of all, try chucking a few of those illegal nuclear weapons around, and see what the Jewish future is.

        Or, you could accelerate the cruel genocide of Palestinians, that’s bound to have an effect on the Jewish future. We’ll dine out on it for years.

        Heck, you could do away with the Palestinians, and be the sovereign lords of Palestine. Won’t that have a great effect on the Jewish future.

        Making sure Trump, the Republicans, and Israel are joined at the hip may have some effect on the Jewish future, too.

        Yup, “Nathan”, the Jewish future is very bound up with Israel, with millions and millions of Jews around the world looking at Israel and being able to make some choices. The Zionist project is, after all, the most consequential thing we’ve done in a while.

        ” In the process of assimilation, one loses one’s distinctive culture.”

        Oh Lord, that is the biggest buncha bullshit.
        Look, I had lot’s of Orthodox relatives, lots of Conservative relatives. The fact that they were “assimilated” (were US citizens, had full legal rights, contracts, persons protected, etc) was the reason they had the freedom and means to live their distinctive culture to every extent they wanted to. Synagogue worship, study, Yiddish culture and, oh yes, the ability to support Zionism, were the benefits of assimilation.
        And please remember Jewish assimilation in the US goes back way before there were Reform Jews or white-shoe law firms.

  6. Mooser
    May 26, 2018, 1:47 pm

    ” and I believe there is personal value in being part of a community with shared history and traditions.”

    You mean the mishegos Zionism made up for itself? That “shared history and traditions”?

    ” But neither do I want a collective Jewish identity that becomes merely ‘anti-Zionism’.”

    Well then, don’t do things which are inimical to the interests, and the “shared history and traditions” of the majority of Jewish people in the world, and maybe that won’t happen.

    • Robert Cohen
      May 27, 2018, 7:55 am

      You guys on this comment threat are SO hardcore, I can’t keep up.

      • Yonah Fredman
        May 27, 2018, 9:55 am

        Welcome Robert,

        It is not enough for you to abandon Zionism. You must stop calling yourself a Jew. You’re allowed to say you are a former Jew, but don’t say that unless you have to. That’s the predominant flavor here in the comments section of mw.

        too bad your name is cohen. you should change that too, unless you feel that clinging to the past is so important to you.

      • Yonah Fredman
        May 27, 2018, 10:17 am

        I certainly have more in common with you than I have with the average Brit. I wonder sometime about the different slant of our countries’s Jews towards Jewishness and or Zionism. Because America is more capacious than Britain in its very conception, and so much a form of Zionism itself, as in the new home of the Puritans, all the way to Lady Liberty lighting her harbor, there seems to be room for many different forms of Jewish self conception that might not be so in countries where this doesn’t apply. Britain’s role in ruling the world before WWII and handing over the keys to its American cousin thereafter is another aspect. The fact that Britain had a mandate in Palestine and has a smaller Jewish population are two other factors.

        I once had a conversation with a Latin American Jew, I cannot recall where south of the border, maybe Brazil. His pugnacious attitude intolerant of any deviation from unity and the party line among his fellow Jews in America was inconceivable to him and seemed rooted in the tininess and fragility of his Jewish community in its surroundings. That is an extreme example of place determining one’s politics.

        In America particularly because of the Bibi Trump alliance, the post Trump phase promises turbulence in the attitude of Leftish Jews in regards to Israel. My own opinions, biases, worries, conceptions and associations are besides the point, atypical of the attitude that will predominate very soon given the If Not Now zeitgeist I see on the horizon. (meanwhile we are not yet a year and a half into trump’s first term in office. I hope it will be his last term in office. and the split between red states and blue states is indicative of a bumpy road before democratic domination reflects the large populations in the cities rather than the disproportionate power of sparsely populated states.)

      • MHughes976
        May 27, 2018, 10:57 am

        I think that there is a body of opinion very strong among people who are customarily called Jewish which is very effective in supporting the oppression of Palestinians. I’m hardcore to the extent of thinking that the most important thing here is that the oppression be ended. The reformation of Jewish opinion is both much to be desired in itself and in its probable consequence, that the liberation of Palestine would come nearer, but it is less importance, of course, than the liberation itself. I might see some Judaeocentrism if this order of importance were reversed.
        I agree that there is something a bit arbitrary about the application of the term ‘Jewish’ in common usage but that does not stop me finding the idea of ‘reforming Jewish opinion’ meaningful or of being very glad at any hope that this can be done. I don’t cherish much hope but there is a bit more hope if the effort comes from ‘within’. I admire the efforts of Phil Weiss and of you, Robert, in this regard.

      • eljay
        May 27, 2018, 12:08 pm

        || Yonah Fredman: Welcome Robert,

        It is not enough for you to abandon Zionism. You must stop calling yourself a Jew. You’re allowed to say you are a former Jew, but don’t say that unless you have to. That’s the predominant flavor here in the comments section of mw. … ||

        Typical y.f. melodrama. There is no “flavour” of comments on MW suggesting that people should be denied the choice to be Jewish.

        There is, however, an overpowering “flavour” of comments from Zionists suggesting that:
        – Jewish is some sort of other-worldly / exceptional / inescapable identity (it isn’t); and
        – the choice to be Jewish must comprise a right to a religion-supremacist state (it doesn’t).

      • Mooser
        May 27, 2018, 2:15 pm

        “It is not enough for you to abandon Zionism. You must stop calling yourself a Jew.” “Yonah Fredman”

        Yes, “Yonah”, isn’t that exactly what you say? After all, it’s ‘unnatural’ for a Jew to not be a Zionist.

      • Mooser
        May 27, 2018, 2:26 pm

        “I once had a conversation with a Latin American Jew, I cannot recall where south of the border, maybe Brazil. His pugnacious attitude intolerant of any deviation from unity and the party line among his fellow Jews in America was inconceivable to him and seemed rooted in the tininess and fragility of his Jewish community in its surroundings.”

        Yeah, those Latin Americans can be very rigid when it comes to the clave’. It’s got to be just right. We tend to ‘swing it’ a bit more up here, which isn’t exactly correct.

      • jon s
        May 27, 2018, 4:36 pm

        Robert Cohen,
        “Hardcore” is a gentle and understated description of some of the commenters here, believe me.
        In any case, I have some questions:
        If what you call the “trinity” has broken up, what will replace it? You mention “Jewish ethics”. What are they ? Are they different from universal ethics? What makes them Jewish?
        Do you -and the group you describe – have a position on a possible solution ? Two states? One state? How can peace be achieved?

      • Mooser
        May 27, 2018, 4:37 pm

        “Jews in America was inconceivable to him and seemed rooted in the tininess and fragility of his Jewish community in its surroundings” “Yonah Fredman”

        I’m sorry “Yonah”, what has the American Jewish community not done for Zionism so far? Please, tell us where we have failed Zionism.

        What more do you want from us? More money? More effort to twist things Israel’s way in the media? More political influence? Maybe something like this this, but for Zionism and Judaism?

      • eljay
        May 27, 2018, 6:13 pm

        || jon s: Robert Cohen,
        “Hardcore” is a gentle and understated description of some of the commenters here, believe me. … ||

        It’s true: Plenty of the Zionists here are unapologetic, in-your-face Jewish supremacists (Zionists).

        || … How can peace be achieved? ||

        The important question – which Zionists (incl. “liberal Zionists”) are unable even to contemplate – is “How can justice, accountability and equality be achieved?”

      • Mooser
        May 27, 2018, 7:17 pm

        “You mention “Jewish ethics”. What are they ? Are they different from universal ethics? What makes them Jewish?”

        What makes them “Jewish ethics”? Simple.
        They’re the kind of ethics which don’t allow you to fire on, (spot aim and fire in cold blood) at unarmed Palestinian demonstrators, or invent excuses for doing so.
        That’s what makes them “Jewish ethics”.
        Or would you like to tell us Israel uses “universal ethics” to arrive at its policies and actions? (ROTFLMSJAO: And then define “universal ethics” in terms of the lowest common denominator, that is ‘whataboutism’.)

        “Do you -and the group you describe – have a position on a possible solution ? Two states? One state? How can peace be achieved?” “Jon s”

        “Jon s” is an “Israeli history teacher and long-time activist on the Israeli Left. ” He’s fresh out of solutions, so I’m sure he’ll be mooore than willing to listen to Robert Cohen’s.

      • Maghlawatan
        May 27, 2018, 7:56 pm

        Jewish ethics boil down to one simple idea. Don’t be an ass hole. If you want to maintain a separate group for the next 3000 years you tend your garden carefully. There may or may not be a cruel God who puts you ahead of everyone Jewish ethics says ” let’s keep it real”. Because the world doesn’t care. Zionism looks at those diaspora leaders and says they didn’t know anything.

        Zionism is messianic. Zionism thinks Yahweh cares. And Zionism developed a taste for violence . You can get people to do things Plus if you tell kids they are special they are easy to control. Zionism doesn’t need controls. Zionism knows everything.

        In the great sweep of history 70 years is nothing. Zionism may be a FRED process Fast rise Exponential decay .

        .

      • gamal
        May 27, 2018, 10:57 pm

        “What makes them “Jewish ethics”? Simple.
        They’re the kind of ethics which don’t allow you to fire on, (spot aim and fire in cold blood) at unarmed Palestinian demonstrators, or invent excuses for doing so”

        yes Mooser like when Peter Tosh does a version of that Nina Simone song

        “invent excuses”..

        “Downpresser man
        You can’t run, you can’t bribe Jah-Jah
        Can’t call him in a bar
        Fe can drink some
        Devil soup (make a deal)
        Can’t bribe him to run a car now
        Can’t test him faith
        Downpresser man”

        downpresser people and their enablers are so tedious, i really love that paragraph you wrote, inspiring like a Beethoven crescendo, you a master at this, radiallahuanhu

      • Mooser
        May 28, 2018, 2:36 pm

        “Hardcore” is a gentle and understated description of some of the commenters here, believe me.” “Jon s”

        “Jon s’s” sarcasm is understandable, he’s had one of his legs blown off by a Mondo comment just for coming near certain topics.

  7. broadside
    May 27, 2018, 10:46 am

    How perfect. Wrapping it up w a Leonard Cohen quote. And we all know what a great anti-Zionist he was. (Didn’t he play Wagner to Sharon’s Hitler?)

    This is the most glib, most naval-gazing article I’ve read on MW, it puts Phil Weiss’s musings to shame. Robert Cohen: when gentiles walk by do you even see them??? Extraordinary. Truly. (Maybe we should change it from the Jewish Question to the Cohen Problem.)

    Cohen: “So I’m guessing you have no time either for the young Jews I’ve written about in the post?”

    You mean there’s a Jedi still alive???

    (By the by: “I’ve seen the future, brother. It is murder.”

    The better Cohen quote. And guess what, Robert: it’s for ALL of us.)

  8. Ossinev
    May 27, 2018, 5:34 pm

    @YF
    “I wonder sometime about the different slant of our countries’s Jews towards Jewishness and or Zionism” etc
    Yonah I think you forgot to mention what IMHO is the main difference between Jews/Zionism/America and Jews/Zionism/Britain. No its not all those Ziodollars bulk purchasing the US Media and US politicians. It`s the fact that America has a huge oh lawdy lawdy population of stone bonkers mad second coming/Armageddon longing/ praying for fruitcake evangelists and they represent a very significant element of the voting population which has to be appeased . Of course in their end of days and re-boot of days delusions Zionism is a vital component as the warmongering Zios will trigger the aforementioned end and re-boot ( I believe that the process involves Jews either being slaughtered for their apostasy or converted – have to admit I lose the plot/will to live when it comes to to that bit). Ergo the Loonie Evangelists have to support Zios and Zioland to achieve their Apocalypse.
    And the Israeli and American Zios in turn , world leaders in hypocrisy and double standards, for their part conveniently brush aside the inherent and blatant Anti Semitism/Anti – Judaism in American Evangelism.
    As in any port in a storm particularly when there is a $38 billion US taxpayer funded freebie handout as a sweetener.
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-pastor-the-jerusalem-embassy-and-the-end-of-days

  9. oldgeezer
    May 27, 2018, 8:52 pm

    @Robert

    You are far too kind to Collier.

    I’ve seen the vitriol that has been spewed in your direction from those of his ilk and I applaud your determination to stand up against it for what is right.

    I share some philosophical issues with others that have posted but why repeat things. I think it’s somewhat a drop in the bucket of what’s needed but over time all these drops will add up.

  10. RoHa
    May 28, 2018, 1:52 am

    @Robert,

    Some of the tough love you are facing here stems from the fact that the overall concern of your article seems to be that of “rescu[ing] Judaism, and the Jewish community in Britain” from Zionism.

    Many of us think that rescuing the Palestinians from Zionism is a teeny bit more urgent and important. We find the angst of British Jews is a slightly less compelling issue than the slaughter, torture, dispossession, and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.

    And some of us (famously, me) do not give a hoot what happens to Judaism.

    So, although it is good to see a repudiation of Zionism, and you are to be applauded for leading a revolt against it, we would like it to be to save the Palestinians rather than to comfort British Jews.

  11. RoHa
    May 28, 2018, 2:16 am

    A bit off topic, but i was reading an article about RFK and came across this line in the Orlando Sentinel:

    “the Sirhans were Christian Palestinians forced from their Jerusalem home by Israel in 1948.”

    Oops! You aren’t supposed to say such things in a US newspaper. Someone will get knuckles rapped.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/ct-bobby-kennedy-second-gunman-20180526-story.html

    • Maghlawatan
      May 30, 2018, 5:01 am

      That aspect never gets mentioned.
      The assassination was in 1968, one year after the 6 day war

  12. Maghlawatan
    May 29, 2018, 5:06 pm

    Zionism is as popular as constipation in most parts of the world. Occasionally a celebrity will come along and buy into the cult and may even embrace the settlers. Israel loved it when Roseanne Barr said she supported the madness . She had a new show abn great PR.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/business/media/roseanne-barr-offensive-tweets.html

    • just
      May 29, 2018, 5:26 pm

      I can’t believe that she got the show in the first place, but that’s Hollywood for you.

      From Haaretz/AP:

      “The comedian who once called Israel a “Nazi state” told a group of pro-Israel activists in 2016 she is now such a Zionist that “she might be moving” to Israel. In an interview with Haaretz in 2016, Roseanne even referred to herself as a ‘rabbi.'”

      https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/roseanne-cancelled-after-star-s-racist-tweet-about-obama-aide-1.6132818

      Maybe she’ll go now. She’ll fit right in with Lehava, La Familia/Beitar, Yehuda Glick and the current ‘leadership’ in Israel.

      • Maghlawatan
        May 30, 2018, 4:50 am
      • Maghlawatan
        May 30, 2018, 12:27 pm

        Chuckie V

        @tioluis

        Replying to @THEsaragilbert

        “Sucks for you guys because the show was actually really good, but @therealroseanne is unhinged and should have stayed OFF twitter. She’s always been a nutjob and now has ruined the legacy of the show forever! SAD”

        Zionists are nutjobs by definition

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