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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
I was about to say the same thing...and I don't have time either to go into a long rebuttal of Elliot's statement.
I don't know if Elliot is Jewish or Christian or neither but that statement is crazy to say the least.
I live in Christian and evangelical land and the christian zionist only interest in Israel is their weird beliefs and desire to see the 'return of the Jews" result in the "Rapture" where all Jews not converted to Christians will flame out or be eaten by locust while they, the Christians, are transported to heaven from the temple mount.
So to say US Jews support Netanyahu and settlements "because of the christian zionist" is really an unbelievable statement....like saying Jews support the Christians converting them or setting them aflame before boarding their God sent End Times shuttle to heaven.
Really bizarre statement.
"In the contemporary Jewish world there are no clear dichotomies. We are dealing with a spineless elastic metamorphic identity that shapes itself to fit every possible circumstances"
Exactly. This why I say and believe that there can't be any long term accommodating of zionism. One simply cannot reason with something that morphs and morphs and redefines and contridicts itself further and further away from any kind of known reality every time any reason or logic or light is applied to it.
I am fairly sure it will occur to Palestine to say they will 'recognize" Israel the same day they receive their own statehood and are recognized by Israel. That would be my reply to the recognition demand. And if Israel demanded to be recognized as a Jewish state I would reply that wouldn't be accurate as they have some non Jews in their state. Israel is irrational, they needed to be treated and handled as non rational beings or as "rationally handicapped" and responded to repeatedly as you would to a two year old child until they find irrational demands and temper fits don't work any longer.
Considering the fact that the majority of people in the world are 'reasonable" that mutual recognition exchange would be regarded as 'fair' ...by everyone but the Israelis.
Well I'm gonna say what I always say.
You're gonna have to get the Israelis out of the US congress...not only for the sake of the Palestines and other ME spots, but for the sake of the US.
Otherwise nothing is going to change.
UNLESS.....Europe and the rest of the world has had enough of our crap and hypocrisy in the ME and on Israel and decides to totally ignore the US...which they seem more and more inclined to do since they have seen Obama's weakness and 180 on the issue after his lofty Cairo speech.
The public is going to have to call those like Ackerman and others what they are...traitors, agents of foreign interest, whatever....liken it to a McCarthy redo if you will-- but that's what it is likely to come down to as nothing else has worked. In fact a lot of the public is already doing that. If that frightens the Israeli politicians in this country maybe that would be a good thing....a nice dose of scare might do wonders in rearranging their priorities.
Fear, like money is a great motivator.
BTW, Mother Jones has an excellent article this week on why politicians don't pay pay attention to the wishes of Americans....because only the rich and dedicated fanatical can apply the two things that work on politicians...fear and money, money and fear.
BTW.....I don't think the creation of a Jewish state would have caught on or come about either without the holocuast. But coming on the heels of Herzl's work you could say it created a perfect storm for a Jewish state.
Herzl didn't even insist on a jewish homeland being in Palestine..he said they would 'take whatever (where ever) they were given". So any religious or people connection to Palestine wasn't his main thrust.
He was plain convinced that Jews and others could not live together because there would always be conflict and resentment between Jews and others regardless.
His thought on that I see as valid..as in his saying Jews behavior was a reaction to others dislike of them. That is true for any group or any people....you piss on someone, they piss on you, and on and on it goes.... they don't like us, we don't like them...human nature...chicken and egg again
What Jews and zionist need today is a Herzl who will add that gentile behavior toward Jews is "also" a reaction to the Jews treatment and dislike of others.
I haven't seen any hard core zionist or many Jews (in these type discussions) willing to admit that Jews or zionist bear any responsibility for the mutual dislike or what they call anti semitism over the years.
Now I await Lightbringer accusing me of saying the Jews brought the holocuast on themselves. That is the usual irrational response I get for talking about mutual responsibility of jews and gentiles in anti semitism.
When it comes to religion overall I think there are some people are who are reallllllly, realllllly into it, making them crazy .....and others, the majority probably, for whom religon is a ' belief' they have been raised with and a social and community thing.
But the christian zionist do belive in DOOMSDAY....I sometimes run into a christian zionist type when I am out looking at property in the country and they are convinced that DOOMSDAY will come exactly as the God Merchants preach and they want to tell everyone about it. Actually they aren't all 'bad' people just nutty and under educated.
I don't know that I felt sympathic...unless I could say I felt some sympathy for his feelings of being aleinated , but also being misguided.
But then when I think about it all...it may have been he wasn't misguided about "some Jews"....he didn't actually call on "all" Jews to "join in" creating a homeland. He wanted only dedicated Jews who felt alienated, not Jews who were or thought they were fully assimilated in their current countries.
He made some interesting statements like...."anti-Semitism is an understandable reaction to Jewish defects".
And that..."every nation in whose midst Jews live is, either covertly or
openly, anti-Semitic and its immediate cause is our excessive production of mediocre intellects, who cannot find an outlet downwards or upwards. When we sink, we become a revolutionary proletariat. When we rise, there also rises our terrible power of the purse."
And also added that ..... "The Jews are carrying the seeds of anti-Semitism into England; they have already introduced it into America."
BUT....then he says these 'defects of the Jews' (their behavior) that causes them to be hated, were caused by being discriminated against......that what they are dislike for was caused by their reaction to those who dislike them.
Everything I have ever seen, read, observed, studied or researched about the Jewish vr others thing from the beginning to today probably belongs in the chicken and egg debate...which came first...the Jew hating chicken or the Gentile hating egg?....and probably has as much chance of being proven one way or another as the chicken and egg debate.
I think the guilt thing, if we are talking about Western guilt over the Jewish holocaust, was manufactured by the zionist, not the result of any religious influence on Christians. I'd say people in the west or US felt sympathy for the Jews and wanted to help them but didn't see themselves or the US or Britain as 'responsible" for what the nazis did.
But the pro Israel forces, in the US in particular, always talk about how we 'let it happen" and usually get away with that statement because the average person isn't a WWII strategy buff and has no idea of what the US and allies limitations were at the time Germany had it's camps. If most Americans studied Eisenhower's writings and other commanders they would be shocked to know how often the US thought it might actually lose the war. If it hadn't been for the Russians we might have.
When the subject of the Jewish holocaust comes up people seem to forget that a World War was going on...other civilians were also being bombed and killed and the fate of billions of people not just the Jews was at stake and that resources and strategy had to be directed to where they would be most effective for the most people and in ultimately defeating Hitler.
I heard Debbie Wasserman say the other day that the " US had moral obligation to the Jews and Israel"...the fact is we don't. But a 'combination' of American sympathy for the Jews and Jewish politics in the US set the stage for the idea of US 'guilt" over the Jews.
In reality there was nothing the US or any ally could have done about the concentration camps before Russia broke into Germany for the allies.
Sometimes you see the Jewish groups saying the US should have bombed the railroad tracks so trains couldn't transport the Jews to camps and other such nonsense....which is totally ridiculous. Even if the US could have gotten planes over Germany then and bombed the tracks, which they couldn't, all the Nazis would have done is execute Jews where ever they found them. They would have lost some camp slave labor by killing all Jews on sight but then there wouldn't have been any Jews to survive the camps. Maybe some Jews would say they would have rather been shot down in the street than to have been a survivor but I doubt many survivors would feel that way.
Well I learned one thing today reading Herzl's two writings on zionism and creation of a Jewish state.
Herzl's ideas about zionism were actually much more mild than todays zionism ......today's zionist compared to Herzl's zionism is like zionism x 10 and on steriods and meth.
So who put religion into zionism? Herzl didn't, his vision was totally secular. I'd say the 20th century zionist added the religious to draw in as many Jews as they could and with the holocaust happening it was a good drawing card...and the christian zionist added it because it makes a lot of doomsday money from the simple minded for Hagee and Roberson and other false prophet TV God merchants.
I still can't get over the flag thing so I put 'Star of David on American flag' into google search and got a variety of stuff. I think it's a done deal that in the world's mind Isr and the US are one and the same.
We might never get back our sovereignty and concept of America as America unless we take a stand against 'Greater Israel'. Chances are we will never do that given our political corruption.
It's all just so bizarre....we can point out all the examples and proof of the Israeli subversion in our political bodies and policies...and usually be called anti semites for saying it.....but then it's totally true concerning Israel....and then we, or at least I, just still can't wrap my mind around the fact that the USA, the super power of the world, the greatest democratic experiement ever, is half brain washed domestically and politically totally controlled by a tiny minority of zionist and a foreign country in such a critical area as our foreign policy and our obligation to human rights as in Palestine. I know this all true, but I am still in 'emotional denial' I guess, that this could have happened to the US. I can't conceive that a majority of our elected leaders would 'sell out' this country and the people...and then even be proud of it and encourage others to do the same thing. Too,too, too Orwellian..beyond Orwellian really. Depressing as hell.
PA won't file charges in improper-flag flaps
2002-07-15
by BRIAN GAWLEY
PORT ANGELES -- No charges will be filed against two owners of flags initially deemed improper and they will be allowed to keep their flags, Police Chief Tom Riepe said Sunday.
Only one person actually was cited, Riepe said. Eugene Voight was cited on the Fourty of July for ``improper display of a flag'' after he displayed an American flag with a Star of David in the star field on his car in front of the courthouse.
The 51-year-old Voight, who is not Jewish, said he made the flag to protest the United States' relationship with Israel, which he thinks has too much influence over the country and its policies.
Complete article is at link to peninsuladailynews.com...ory/html/98740
link to tandis.odihr.pl
Internet. In the site of the daily paper “Rizospastis”, official organ of the Communist Party, a flash animation, appearing in the home page, showed the Israeli flag scattering and the Star of David becoming one of the stars on the U.S. flag. Consequently, all the stars of the U.S. flag were turning into swastikas. Then the following slogan appeared: “Imperialism dropped its mask and put out its Zionist knife”.
Athens, February 26, 2009
Central Board of Jewish Communities in Greece
A large banner featured an American flag with a Star of David in it and the words, "No More War Crimes. Never Again. USA/Israel Out of Gaza . ...
link to adl.org 02CD-43AF-8147
Combating Terrorism Center: Islamic Imagery Project: Geography and ...
American Flag with Star of David back to top. From the perspective of the Muslim world, the United States and Israel are equally responsible for the Israeli...
Remember those CD's that some organization with zionist backing mailed out way back when....it was about the Muslims hordes getting ready to invade the US and kill all the men and rape all the women.....
I have forgotten what it was called and I didn't even play it cause I had already read about what the deal was with it...I just tossed it in the trash.
But imagine how much money was put into that mail out.....I was surprised that I got one because I am not on any mailing lists for anything related to religion or Muslims or anything that would have my name or address pop up. Hell, maybe they mailed it to everyone in the US with a street address.....many dozens of millions in cost I am sure......real fanatics.
It's amazing to me.....all these people who put all their whatever into the bible or this or that religious writing...written by who?...probably by a early ancient Lewis Carroll a la the Land of Oz.
Religion astounds me, not that I begrudge anyone whatever they want to believe in. But here we are 2011 and still primitive, swearing by primitive writings. And why does 'God" center around Israel? (According to discussions in Judaism and certain Christians.) If there was ONE GOD I don't think he would have a favorite spot. I guess that's why people have different Gods, so they can all be special or chosen because only they know the real truth of God.
I think I prefer the Buddhist.
I'am not registered there and every time I tried to register it kept saying name in use over and over no matter what I put in ...but I sent it to a guy I know who post there regularly and asked him to post it.
You can check later and see if it went thru.
Holy S***....the first time I read the article the picture of the flag hadn't come up before I got to the second page...when I went back to check something I then saw the flag.
Was this Oren's or the zionist supporters idea or could have the illustrator stuck it to them with this rendition of the Stars of David on our flag?
This is so 'in our face' it's hard to believe...but then again I guess not.
I don't know if I have said this before, but my first interest in Israel, the Jews, Zionist and the ME started when I heard Netanyahu make his slip on MSNBC about how 911 was good for Israel...and then when I started seeing all these lapel pins of the Stars and Stripes entertwined with the Star of David being worn by US politicians. Some politicians even had the Israeli flag on their house internet sites.
Well, the hairs on the back on my neck stood up and started waving red flags....something was wrong and strange about this I thought.
Up until then I knew about as much about Israel as Hollywood allowed.
Thus began my travels into the land of the Zionist, Israel and the ME and the US congress, AIPAC and the US-Isr relationship.
Now I understand what has happened. And the funny/sad thing is the more I looked into the US-Isr and I/P and ME entanglements, the more I tried to find evidence that it wasn't what it appeared to be, that it couldn't be true that everything the US was at least 'suppose' to be and stand for was sold out by our own leaders for politics...but it is true.
O.K., I am gagging.....
"THE FORBEARS WHO LANDED on Plymouth Rock in 1620 considered themselves the founders of a "New Israel." Committed to studying Hebrew and bridging the Old and New Canaans -- the Holy Land and America -- they pledged to restore the Jews to their ancestral homeland. Far from peripheral, this "restorationist" movement flourished in colonial America and widely influenced the Founders: Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin wanted the likeness of Moses leading the children of Israel to serve as the Great Seal of the newly independent United States."
I wonder if Oren knows how much disgust this stirs in Americans. It's not enough that they revise their own Jewish history they revise America's too? It is just this type of crap that sets me off.
I would be the first to admit there is a lot of myth about America and it's founding, but this kind of mythical zionist or Jewish claim to America's founding is insulting in so many ways.
It seems ( and I know I say this a lot) that there is no respect for real history any more. People just make up whatever suits their agenda or ego.
I don't want this to sound elitist or like I or those like me are 'more' American or 'better' Americans than those who came later or thru Ellis Island because I don't believe that. The guy who got here yesterday can be just as much American in his dedication to democracy and this country(such as it is right now) as Washington and Jefferson, it depends on the person.
But..... my ancestor sailed up the James River in 1616, 4 years before the Puritans jumped ship on Plymouth Rock and half my family's memorabilia is in the NC Museum of History...records and letters, documents and correspondence among the family and to and from citizens, leaders, military commanders, of the time from the American Revolution to the War of 1812 to the Civil War..so I have some intimate knowledge of what the attitudes and ideas were in America's founding. Was religion important to a lot of settlers? yes...you could find a bible in almost every home. BUT ...it was NOT the motivating force for the earliest settlers that came to America or for the Founders.
In the beginning America was a commercial 'adventure' and attracted adventures and the lesser classes to find their fortunes and livelihoods outside of the European strictures imposed by a 'class system'......NOT by the religious system.
Sometimes I think it must be plot by the various religions to skip over Jamestown and Roanoke and try to start America at Plymouth Rock with the mixed Dutch and English Puritans instead. ..lol....as if THEIR religious reasons in chartering the Mayflower to escape the Church of England was THE reason America was founded.
I could go into a long rant but let me just make one thing clear.....the earliest settlers, citizens, the Founders were first and foremost...PRACTICAL, commercial oriented people looking to create lives and livelihoods and yes also wealth. In those times religion was a second place concern that served mostly to bind communities into norms of commonality for the sake of organization and societal benefits....as would have happened any where that people were trying to built some structure in what was then mostly a wilderness. Religious symbols that were used were used because that was all they had, there was no royalty, no royal houses with historical trappings to provide symbols for this new country.
One of the most important things that I mentioned before...and one of the most telling things to sweep away the notion of religion as 'the' founding influence for America, much less Judaism and Israelites..is that the one thing the settlers brought with them to the "new world' -Jamestown- on the first ship was the book of Black's Law...the British Common Law that was and still is the basis of the American law and justice system......Secular Law.....not religious law....from the beginning.
Ah, Lightbringer...if you are sincere that you are either very young or very delusional...........you don't know how the world works.
If enough of the world is against you, you won't last....that is just a fact of life. When you go too far against what the majority of the world is willing to tolorate, as the Germans did in WWII, the world will put you down...and you are much smaller than the Germans.
Your mode of zionist 'self determination' is to "challange or dare the world" to "correct" you ....and that is a fatal mistake.
The others here have got be right about you, you must be a joker.
All Jews have similar facial features????
I refer to Sand's book for good reason....and it is praised by 'real' historians for good reason.
I don't know if you have ever studied ancient history but I have (decades ago I admit) and if you had you would understand that what Sand posits about the creation or formation of the Jews parallels exactly the actual and accepted history of ME tribes and conversions and migrations and emigrations beginning after the Iron Age and particularly starting about 1000 BC when some tribes discovered cultivation and went to farming and wandering nomads would join settled farming tribes and most often 'convert' to be part of a settlement. There is a lot more to the tracing of how Judaism spread and how peoples joined or left Judaism (or Islam for that matter) to survive the various conquest of so many conquers in the ME naturally. It is impossible for there to be any 'pure Jews as distinct as a people' from other Semites in any way except religion. And as said, religion was often given up for the sake of survival to join whatever religion of a group that offered a 'camp' or established settlement or the protection of numbers. To say nothing of how the European and Asian Jews came about.
This was my opinion way before Sand wrote his book, based on my understanding of ancient history. Its ' just convenient to have a noted intellectual like Sand actually bring it all together based on real history. ..instead of me just saying it.
Bottom line, the many myths about Jews put out by the zionist are contridicted by the actual historical facts and events...they simply cannot be true.
Lightbringer...
Evidently you have never read Sholom Sand's "The Invention of the Jewish People"...you should so you will see what nonsense you are spouting. Jews are a religion, not a ethnic or distinict people and they had no 'nationality' until Israel was created in 1948.
But you know I have been around this issue for so long that sometimes I just don't want to into lengthy responses and would rather distill it to the bottom line.
And the bottom line is, the total population of humans on the planet Earth, is currently estimated to be 6.91 billion by the United States Census Bureau.
Only 11 million are Jews and only 6 million are Israelis.
There are 1.9 billion Muslims, a billion or more Catholics, more billions are various Christian faiths , another billion divided between other faiths.
And you and the Jewish State are pissing them all off.
Good damn luck with that.
I have to say it......no matter how often I see some Israeli activist like
lightbringer..... I am floored all over again, every time, at their total and utter ignorance of their own real history and all their zionist historical revisions.
What is worse, I think they believe all this inaccurate stuff they spout or maybe they just lie cause the truth doesn't work for their agenda.
But whatever..it's like they live in some alternate universe or on some other planet, planet Zio probably.
If you sent them back in a time machine to the actual history they are misrepresenting and made them experience it as it actually was they would still deny it.
Hopeless, totally hopeless.
It's funny that no one ever says there should be one state ..of Palestine....the pro Israelis always 'assume' that the one state would be Israel.
Er.....unless you think Israel owning the West Bank is a done deal you are seriously underestimating the number of setttlers who would have to be removed in any deal acceptable to Palestine.
Close to 500,000 Israelis live in the West Bank settlements, annexed East Jerusalem and the former Israeli-Jordanian no man's land areas
As of July 2009, 304,569 Israelis live in the 121 officially-recognised by Israel settlements in the West Bank, 192,000 Israelis live in settlements in East Jerusalem and over 20,000 live in settlements in the Golan Heights.[9][10
An assessment by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs in 2007 found that approximately 40% of the West Bank was taken up by Israeli infrastructure. The infrastructure, consisting of settlements, the barrier, military bases and closed military areas, Israeli declared nature reserves and the roads that accompany them is off-limits or tightly controlled to Palestinians
Approximately 30% of Palestinians living in the West Bank are refugees or descendants of refugees from villages and towns located in what became Israel during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War (see Palestinian exodus), 754,263 in June 2008 according to UNRWA statistics
The principal of not displacing residents from their home is important"
Well then, you would be for the Palestine right to return to the homes and land they fled and were forced off of ... right?
Everything Israeli outside of the bounds of the original UN charter is a illegal settlement...that's an already decided matter of law.
The "Wall" is also illegal according to the ICC.
As is all the land 'won' in war..also a long ago settled matter of international law and in the Rome statutes.
Face it...you're just illegal every which way.
"Judaism itself is more than enough to contain Jewish people as a distinct group – to a certain degree"
Hummm.....are Episcopalians a 'distinct group'? Can we have our own country?
What about Baptist?...are they a distinct group? Where is their true homeland?
We better get busy staking claims and dividing up the land.
I demand my own country! I demand my self determination as a distinct group!
Maybe if I create enough fuss the UN will give me Jamaica or the Virgin Islands.
BTW, the National Geographic says the nethanderals were the original inhabitants of Palestine Israel....seriously ....they just discovered their skulls down under all the other layers they dug up. And really interesting is that they say there are some humans today still closely related to the nethanderals which can be ascertained by skull measurements.
"“And why do those of you who support the 2-state solution think it is self-evidently more practical, less utopian, then the 1-state solution?”
Why?
Are you daft?
A 'One state' would be a true 'Apartheid state'. Or like the Jim Crow years in the US for blacks.
Arabs and Muslims are already discriminated against in Israel.
Who in their right mind thinks it wouldn't be even worse if Palestine was taken in by and became Israel, the ' Jewish State.'
If the evangelical nutcases succeeded in declaring the US a "Christian State" and demanded it be "recognized" as such I would start a revolution or leave.
I can see some Israelis might like the one state idea....get all of Palestine land and all it's resources and a large supply of Palestines as a second class citizens, under class of near slave labor...Greater Israel under a different ploy.
But for those less scurrilous types of pro Israelis who sincerely think this would be the solution for I/P, and even for the more scurrilous types, they need to remember that they would be outbred and out numbered in a few decades or less and then undoubtly face their own Arab Spring style revolt.
I wouldn't be too sure about the settlers not becoming violent against Israelis as they are against Palestines.
I have been talking to a Jewish fellow who visits relatives in Israel. He is the non zionist or zionist lite type but most of his relatives are living in settlements and he describes them as religious fanatics who really believe God commanded them to settle all of Palestine as the Greater Israel and all the other myths surrounding zionism.
I would not underestimate the insanity of the religiously deranged.
Add to that the crazy Russian Jews of the fascist variety now in positions of influence in Israel and you could have the perfect storm for some kind of civil war.
As small as Israel is it wouldn't take many or much to set off a firestorm of conflict.
Thanks Elliot
So I if I read the Talmud I will get the basics...right?
But then allow for different adaptations or interpretations of the Talmud by different Jewish groups.
What are the various types of Judaism and what 'books or bibles" are followed by each one?
Can anyone give me a nutshell overview of this?
I reject all the religious mumbo jumbo used so often to justify Israel but would like to know about the kinds of Judaism so I'll be less confused by some of the quotes I see.
I think that Israel, even with it's bad behavior, would not endanger western Jews.....except for the fact that everyone sees Western -US Jews supporting the crimes of Israel.
IF most of what we saw and heard was Jews condemning Israel's actions, Jews lobbying congress to stop it instead of allow it, I don't think
we would see rising resentment against the Jews.
Informed people use the net and blogs like this and others for info--then they see the slanted ,very zionist, pro Israel NYT or WP and hear the very Israel loyal politicians and they conclude that US Jews are responsible for all this. The very very informed might know and disguinsh between the Jews that do support this and those that don't. But then we are mostly bombarded by those that do and all their "the Jews" propaganda ,so the link is made to "The Jews" in a lot of people minds.
The argument over whether the Jews control our media is silly really because it is obvious that either they or their supporters do excerise some control, either direct or thru decades of holocaust 'conditioning', over what America sees in the MSM about Israel. If that were not so
there would be Weiss's in the MSM and Americans would be getting objective reporting about I/P.
I just have to add one thing.
Every time I see this:....my head explodes.
"Anti-Semitism could lurk behind any turn of history, and Jews would need a place to go as a permanent refuge"
How on earth could Israel be a safe haven if the world did turn on the Jews?
Maybe if countries they live in did turn on them it would only result in explusions, and perhaps that is the zionist thinking...that then they could all go to Israel.
But if that were ever to happen Israel would no longer have any support from the world in any way whatsoever and how long then would it last? It could not expand into Palestine any longer, could not confiscate the water and other resources it needs, no one would trade with them, and no one would rise to it's defense if it was attacked by another country. It would be basically dead in the water.
This does not and never has made any sense to me. Israel is not a safe haven escape hatch in the event of universal anti semitism, it is a trap.
Oh well...
The comment in Commentary is pretty obvious....it's the standard attempt to link Jews or Zionist and hence Israel to Gentiles, Christians and America as similar people AGAINST the Muslims terriers and all others who are enemies of the Jews or Israel. It's just more cultural
"piggybacking", 'shared values' and all that nonsense. Like the Isr and US 'united' against the Arab and Muslim hordes in the GWOT.
It's the typical little guy in the crowd who picks a fight of his own and then goes to his buddies and says let's "you" and me get 'em.
It's amusing when you consider the zionist effort to uphold their "distinction" of distinct people' and "separation" from others who they say don't have their 'ancient history' --that they, on the other hand, go to extremes to try to identify themselves as 'like us or us as like them'.
All the other stuff like awakening from the drunkenness of anti semitism sounds like one way street thinking...as if the Jews never had any animosity for the gentiles and Christians either. LOL
The whole Jewish, Zionist, Israel, USA thing as presented by the Zionist is so convoluted and riddled with religion, politics, contridictions, illogic...it's too much for me. You could unwine this web with simple pointing out of all the illogical contridictions in the zionist (and Christian zionst) thought---but it really wouldn't do any good. I have seen some good essays do this but when directed at the zionist they just play the pea game-- if you pick the right shell the pea is under, they just move the pea under a different shell and claim you picked the wrong pea shell.
It's not worth the argument, you can't argue with crazy.
I don't advocate violence usually but then I am not a pacifist either.
One thing though is very obvious about Israeli violence.....the Jews and zionist have been violent from the beginning to the point of irrational and 'transferred' hatred.
The Palestines have taken the brunt of all the Jewish revenge against' the world'. The zionist and Jews know they could never do to Europeans or Americans and all the others they blame for their past circumstances so they put all their hatred into the weaker Palestines who they can abused and decimate.
I constantly hear Jews blame the US for the holocaust and for not doing this or that to prevent it. So imagine something....imagine that the Jew's promised land had been Texas or Vermont or some part of England, Ireland or France or any where but Palestine, and they moved in on a UN charter and did the 'exact same things' they have done in Palestine.
How long do you suppose they would have lasted?
Israel would have been the shortest foot note in history.
Palestine violence and resistance would look like child's play compared to what the Israelis would have gotten for their aggression and land grabbing any where else.
The most telling and worse thing is after all the Israeli violence and revenge 'transference' and blood letting and greed and grabbing it hasn't abated, the hatred and resentment hasn't worn itself out, there has been no let up, enough has not been enough.
I don't see this acting out and attitude ever changing without some major pain being inflicted on Israelis, something that would stop them in their tracks and make them realize their own survival is at stake if they continue as they are.
I have to admit if the Israelis were doing what they have and are doing in Palestine on my home territory I probably wouldn't be one of the non violent resistance types either.
I remember reading in the WP several years ago that dems got 60% of their contributions from Jewish organizations and Jewish donors.
Of course some Jews are liberal anyway but it's the big Jewish donors who attach the Israel and zionist strings to their donations and get results.
I got a call from the DNC for a donation last week....I told the caller to call AIPAC...LOL...really that's what I told her. She seemed confused...was probably was just a employee of a hired fund raising company so I had to explain to her I don't give money to the dems or repubs any longer because of their higher devotion to the foreign country of Israel than to the US. Now I just make donations direct to certain politicians.
But beside the money you have Jewish (and Cuban) enclaves like Flordia that can swing electoral votes...that's why I am also for the popular vote and doing away with the electoral college. And also for public financing of campaigns. Until then the " Vote" isn't really representive of masses desires...for better or worse.
You know I have been saying for a long time (every time the zionist say that 'Americans" support Israel) that all you have to do is follow the comments in any major newpaper in the US to see that that isn't true.
And it is easy to see that these comments aren't the product of some Arab hasbara like propaganda organ as most of the standard pro Israel comments are in that venue.
The fact is most people, even dumb ones, do eventually believe their own lying eyes and when they do finally catch on they are all the more outraged for having been lied to or mislead or being kept ignorant of the facts.
The last time I commented in the NYT on some article referencing Israel I got 274 reader recommends and my comment was only four paragraphs of quotes by various presidents from Presidential libaries papers on the fact that support of Israel has always been based on "domestic politics" (Jewish donations) and not on Israel as any kind of asset or ally to the US.
The zionist are always quoting "polls" as if no one knew how "polls" are commissioned most often by interest groups to get their desired results.
But the general publics non restricted comments on Israel are a better indicator than structured poll questions.
Congress hasn't absorbed the general publics opinion on Israel for the same reason they don't absorb any of our other opinions...they literally don't care. Only two things effect politicans behavior...money and fear of losing their power positions.
As I keep saying, all this ..the Israeli corruption in our government, as well as all the other centers of corruption, are going to cause a bad ending for the US. It's systemic through out our political system on every issue. Israel and it's US supporters are just the most glaring and premier example of the extent and depth of it.
What's going to do it is the dropping of the US credit rating to "long term negative" as S&P did this month.
I don't know what it is going to take to impress upon people that the US is " literally exisiting on borrowed money" and that the 'full faith and credit of the US" slogan is mostly that now...just a slogan.
There are other countries, stable and up coming, for lenders and investors to plunk their money in like Germany, New Zealand and etc., who have good economies and debt levels compared to ours.
Just the interest alone on our debt is now over 10% of total annual US revenues or for comparison sake the debt interest is a third of
all US outlay on all domestic social programs like SS, Medicare, Medicaid and etc.. and 20% of our national defense budget.
Putting on my bankers hat and looking at the US balance sheet and their current on going expenses would I loan them money? NO.
And that decision would be based on the fact that they way DC is trying to curb their debt would further reduce their domestic income revenues, hampering their ability to ever reduce the amount owned on their foreign loans.
It's a mess and the mess is going to get worse.
Israel is it's just an zionist outpost, the actual Jewish state is America.
Think of Israel as the US Jew's and Christian Zionist's private Jewish DisneyLand.
It turns huge profits for Israel and Hagee and Robertson and loads of campaign donations for US politicians but the US taxpayer financiers have never seen a penny on their investment.
She definitely had and/or has some kind of personal problem that led her to attitudes.
There is probably a clinical term for people who are emotionally or mentally disturbed and channel it onto some adopted 'cause' as vehicle for all their anger and resentment but I don't know what it is.
She reminds me of the mentally disturbed religious types like the abortion clinic bombers who kill sinners in the name in God or God's word because their 'cause' justifies their inate violence, at least to themselves.
I read some of Glick's columns way back and the most outstanding to me was her overwhelming and viseral hatred for the US and Americans,Europeans, Arabs naturally....and well everyone but Israelis.
This is very, very sick woman...she lives to hate.
If I come across something by her while googling news I just skip it....it's the kind of stuff that makes bile rise in your throat.
It is a ponzi scheme in which the US weapons industry profits.....you will never hear them complaining about aid to Israel.
There have been dust ups though over the 'kick backs'..they don't call it kick backs they call it something else....in which US suppliers have to pay a "fee" to Israel on what they sell to Israel.
Actually they don't. In fact there are occasional squabbles between US defense industry and Israel over Israel reselling weapons to what would have been US clients.
One way to get a good grip on what Israel does is to go to the FAS arms sales data base where you find this interesting fact.....# Israel Exports more weapons than they Import#.....it's a revolving door. We give them billions in military aid with which they do purchase US equipment..a certain %, can't remember exactly what it is... and they sell all their own domestically produced Israeli weapons.
Does it make sense that Israel needs arms aid when they sell all their own and more than they buy?
There is a good research article somewhere, over at the Washington Report I think, that details how many jobs Israel has cost Americans thru various deals like the Israel free trade bill which was a scandal several years ago. The US business community had gone to the Trade commission or Commerce with a report about how bad it would be for the US to pass that bill and lo and behold the 'confidential report" ended up stolen and at AIPAC who then launched a blitz in congress to overcome the US industries objections and the bill was passed.
That congress would ignore a large political donor sector like US industry in favor of Israel I think clears up all doubts about the hold AIPAC has in the US congress...and any illusions that congress actually represents Americans.
The zionist prefer to use the term 'ally' for the US-Isr relationship and why all this occurs but your average person looking at all this would call it a parasite and host relationship.
It's a one way street, we get absolutely nothing back from Israel..except intelligence , sometimes, probably most often, ginned up to suit Israel's needs.
Correction to my prior post.
It was the Christian Science Monitor, not the Economist.
And it was done in 2002, nine years ago and the final tally was 1.6 trillion.
I hate to think what the total figure is now.
Also I don't believe most accounting of Israeli cost to the US counts things like the US contribution to special UN fund for Lebanon's oil clean up after Israel bombed their oil terminals or such expenses as replacing the Palestine power plants built with 58 million in US aid.
Most people dwell on the aid but the US contributions to replacements of infrastructure and clean ups for Israeli destruction have been enormous also.
At one time I had the figures for how much US pension money from unions, states and cities and public employees funds are invested in israel and Israeli bonds but don't have access to the figures right now.
I noticed last week that the former NY comptroller, Hevas (sp?) was sentenced to prison for fraud and few other dealings, he was the guy who was steering NY pension money into Israeli venture funds and taking kick backs for it.
Basically it's a bottomless pit and getting deeper every year.
link to csmonitor.com
I don't believe that 19 billion includes the 'excess weapons transfers" made by the pentagon to Israel. Supposedly this is obsolete' equipment and weapons given to Israel. However I doubt it is obsolete or if it is Israel takes it and resells it to some third world country.
Nor does it include the 'supposed US weapons stock in Israel, currently at billion worth of equipment and weapons since it was increased last year.
"Supposedly this US weapons depot is for US use should it be needed by the US military for any reason in the region.
However Israel depleted the 'so called US" depot in their war on Lebanon...obviously this "US" weapons supply is for Israel, not the US and a way of hiding yet more aid to Israel.
The Economist 6 years ago tallied up over 1.4 trillion in US aid and program give aways to Israel.
What do you mean by 'framing'?
Jewish dollars means dollars coming from Jewish donors or Israeli interest groups obviously, as 'union dollars' would come from unions, corp dollars from corps and so forth.
So why are you not comfortable with 'jewish dollars?
Yes I see Jews as committed to education.
But when I think of 'enormous contributions to the western world' by certain groups I think of the Greeks for instance who gave us philosophy and the study of ethics, and the French who created the concept of a republic, as the Greeks had even before them. Also of the British who crafted 'common law' know as Black's law which is the basis for American and most other modern western countries law and justice system. These are things that had a lasting effect and made major changes in the world.
There are Jews like Eisenstein who made important additions to knowledge but then for every Eisenstein there is a non Jewish Steven Hawkings.
When I ask this question I am frequently told the Jews gave the world the Bible, which is true, but then Arabs gave the world the Koran so that's like comparing one sports team to another in terms of world impact.
I think Jews tend to excell in some fields because of their commitment to learning but to say they made huge contributions 'to the world' implies that they created some pillars of civilization or that Jewish thought was instrumental to the western world civilization which I can't find any evidence of.
I have two questions.
What exactly are the "enormous Jewish contributions to the world?"
I see Phil say that all the time and no one has ever been able to tell me exactly what they are.
And where besides the US and Israel do Jews really hold enough power or influence to affect the rest of the world? Leaving out the holocaust plea used on all societies, that's influence, but not necessarily pure political power.
If you plug "Israel" into google news these days you will get hundreds of country's governments condemning Israel....that doesn't indicate much Jewish power anywhere except in the US to me. And add that exercise to the fact that all UN Security members, permanent and non permanent, EXCEPT the US voted to condemn Israel on their settlements...well doesn't look like much Jewish power outside of the US.
I read a statement by some AIPAC offical once who said that "fostering the illusion of power" was as important as having that power. I think that is probably true of the zionist and Israel although I don't think it is exaggerated in the US. I think in the US the smarter Jews try to down play it while some others like to brag about it.
As I asked before.....does the US support of Israel really matter to anyone, except the zionist and we Americans who object to it , any longer? It certainly matters less and less to the rest of the world.
I don't think people are seeing the handwriting on the wall in the ME. The US is almost history, has been overtaken by Arab events and is unlikely to turn these events back to it's or Israel's advantage despite the efforts that will no doubt be put into trying to install US-Isr friendly rulers or buying them with US aid money borrowed from China and Japan.
I imagine Israel will continue it's aggression and I also imagine more Arab states will be disinclined to tolerate Israeli aggression or it's occupation of Palestine.
So what does that leave?
If Egypt and Jordon and others like Lebanon, Syria and etc. decide not to allow or to challenge some Israel aggression what then happens?
I don't doubt that the Israeli supporters strangle hold on our government could force the US into yet again supporting some Israel war on Lebanon or Palestine or Syria...branching into a wide ME war.
Even though S&P last week dropped the US government's credit prospects rating to" long term "negative"" because of our debt.
"If'.. and it's probably more accurate to say 'when' that happens the rubber will have met the road for Isr-USA. ...and Isr and the US will lose. No other countries are going to join the US in turning the ME into a glass oil slick for a Israeli war. Just won't happen, most other countries operate on their own sovereign interest first. Even Saudi who objects to Iran would do what it has always done...which is nothing...it would rely totally on the US as it always has to the dirty work and provide them protection while talking out of both sides of their mouths on the sidelines.
People should start considering the implications of the changes of the ME and not ASSUME the US will be able to reassert it's past control and influence for it's or Israel's benefit.
link to online.wsj.com
'Egypt appears to be following a foreign relations pattern set by Turkey in the past decade—a strong American ally whose foreign policy has nevertheless decoupled from American interests. Regardless of its final position on Iran, the country is likely to be significantly less beholden to U.S. interests, American officials said, if only because Egypt was such a reliable ally under Mr. Mubarak.""
Israel's biggest fear is that countries like Turkey and Egypt will sucessfully maintain their own interest and straddle ME regional interest while remaining a western ally. That would mean that when these allies take exception to any Israeli agression the US would either have to listen to them-- or go down with Israel---that would be our only two choices.
Netanyahu is frustrated.
The Arab uprisings have him unsure of who and how hard Israel can lash and attack these days so Israel has fallen back on the false flag operations like Palestines killing (actual Palestine activist) activist and Israel as victims of terrier rockets to keep up their meme of terrier wars on poor besiged Israel and need for more US money and military aid and etc..
It's pretty obvious and way too transparent to veteran Israel watchers.
LOL, really?
So saying for instance, it's time to 'behead' the Israeli lobby or 'drive a woooden stake' thru the hearts of zionists that would be metaphorical of course.
I can hear the screeching already.
“The fact that a U.S. Congressman would separate out any group by religion or even by ethnicity is nothing short of outrageous,” he told the paper. “This goes beyond politics.”
ROTFLMAO...that is typical spin...it doesn't go beyond politics--it is politics. We all know that politicians and the parties 'separate out' racial and religious and ethnic and niche groups and interest in their fundraising. Washington 'created' niche fundraising. It's easier for them to 'pander' to certain groups to get 'group' donations" than to have any kind of policies that would to appeal to the majority of Americans.
I just saw an interesting tidbit posted on another blog that I hadn't seen before although I have seen sinilar comments by other politicians:
""Bachmann: ‘If We Reject Israel, Then There Is A Curse That Comes Into Play’",
By Eric Kleefeld, TPM, 02/09/10
(excerpt) Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) has declared that America has a
serious obligation to support Israel — and if not, God will curse the United
States, and it will be the end of this country.
The Minnesota Independent reports that Bachmann told the Republican Jewish
Coalition, at an event last week in Los Angeles:
“I am convinced in my heart and in my mind that if the United States fails
to stand with Israel, that is the end of the United States . . . [W]e have
to show that we are inextricably entwined, that as a nation we have been
blessed because of our relationship with Israel, and if we reject Israel,
then there is a curse that comes into play. And my husband and I are both
Christians, and we believe very strongly the verse from Genesis [Genesis
12:3], we believe very strongly that nations also receive blessings as they
bless Israel. It is a strong and beautiful principle.”
SOURCE –
link to tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com
Jewish money + zionist christians + corrupt politicians + foreign loyalties + entwining of church and State. It's going to be interesting to see all this ends for the US.
The best hope for Palestine is for Americans to do what Egyptians did and overthrow it's politicians and put them in prison.
The US's politicial Israeli corruption is the biggest handicap for Palestine statehood.
Our own politicians have extended the seige of Palestine for 40 years.
Thomas is anti semitic because she doesn't believe that Jews were entitled to take over Palestine land?
Well they weren't. And all the hatred and dislike they have engendered since 1948 was caused by their own attitudes and actions. If they had acted different from the begining it might be a different story. But no, they went in with vengence and a scorched earth policy and have reeked havoc on Palestine and the region every since.
And please don't bore me with all the tales of Arabs attacks on Israel.
There are some Jews I find replusive ""because"" of their tribal mentality and Israel fetish and there are some Jews I like...that is in fact how the real world works for rational people.
Anti semitism is a meaningless word, it no longer applies to "The Jews" any more than 'anti religion' applies to critics of christian zionist or evangelical nut cases.
You need to come up with a better zionist and pro israel excuse or defense.
Anti semitism isn't working.
"Talking about Jewish media ownership perpetuates the myth that Jews are loyal to each other above and beyond their loyalty to the state in which they live. It is an ancient antisemitic canard that should need to be re-explained to the educated readership of Mondoweiss."
Well, some Jews are and some aren't.
It is the Jews that 'are' that are responsible for the 'canards' since they have always wrapped themselves in "The Jews" in their agenda propaganda and tribal paranoia rallies.
To say that there aren't a number of zionist who happen to be Jewish and are more loyal to Israel and the tribe then the countries they live in is ridiculous. It's on display constantly...a well evidenced fact.
Is is types like you that want to pretend that pointing out those Jewish zionist is anti semitic.....typical piggybacking
on "The Jews" as a group to cover for the despicable mentality and agendas of the zionist.
These recent murders of individuals who are Palestine sympathetic are too illogical and suspicious.
It makes no sense for a Palestine militant to have done this.
This smells like an Israeli operation.
Every year George Washington's Farewell Address to the nation is read aloud on the floor of the house.
Every year they ignore Washington's warning.
"So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld.
And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other.
Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests. "
-George Washington Farewell Adddress 1797
Imagine what the founders of America would think about the US abdication of it's own interest in subservience to a small minority, their lobby and a foreign country.
I can hear generations of Americans turning in their graves over this shameful and despicable aberration.
George Washington Farewell Address. - 1797
"So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.
Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other.
Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests. "
It is too late.
Because neither Israel nor the zionist nor congress are going to change of their own accord.
They are beyond reformable.
The US- Israel zionist aberration will play out however it plays out.
And then there will many of us saying I told you so.
That Americans support Israel is the typical propaganda.
Repeated endlessly by the zionist and Israelis in our congress to make the public think they would be odd if they didn't also didn't support Israel.
But you don't hear Americans saying that---take a look at any comment section in any online publication from the WP to the NYT....the critical anti Israel posters run 100 to 1 of the pro Israel commenters.
Go to the World Opinion Poll done by the Univ of Maryland, the most respected poll in the world. It shows Americans by 71% want the US to take an EVEN HANDED approach to I/P.
I credit the internet with informing the world of the real story about Israel and the US part in I/P. And if the MSM wasn't so slanted in Israel's favor, 90% of America would be calling for the head of every Israeli in our congress and the excommunication of Israel from the US.
But people have learned and more are learning about the true nature of Israel and the zionist subversion of US politics and policy.
"The two parties have combined against us to nullify our power by a 'gentleman's agreement' of non-recognition, no matter how we vote ....... May God write us down as asses if ever again we are found putting our trust in either the Republican or the Democratic Parties."
-W.E.B. DuBois (1922)
"Lieberman likes expressions of American power."
The zionist have been "using " "American" power for 60 years.
Unfortunately the US has seriously eroded it's own power and influence in many parts of the world because of the damaging zionist influence in our foreign policies.
There is a lot to be said for old societies who use to 'banish' individuals who had shown they had no honor or scruples.
Osterizing morally and ethically unacceptable people is a very effective tool.......and politicans, whether they 'worship or not, whether they are 'charming' or not, are not exempt...in fact they in particular should be called out.
"but have some respect for a man on his way to worship or what the heck is any of it for?"
Well that's silly. why should anyone respect Lieberman, whether he 'worships' or not....he certainly doesn't have any respect for others.
How do we know it was a Palestine who killed the Fogels?
According to a American Jew who post as jedell quite frequently at DK and TWN and who has 38 relatives in the settlements and several in the settlement in which this happened....his nephew in that settlement told him all the Thai workers in and around that settlement had been rounded up by the IDF because Fogel had a fight with a Thai worker who he had refused to pay from some work.
From what I read orginally if would have been almost impossible, because of the fencing and guards and monitors, for a Palestine to have gotten inside....leading me to think that the fight Fogel had with a Thai worker inside the settlement, plus all the security at that settlement, points to someone inside, and the Fogel murders were specific to Fogel, not randomly selected for revenge by some Palestine.
BTW Slater.......
You are behind the times. People no longer lay down for the anti semite smear. Do it to the wrong person and it might cost you.
Judge fines ADL $10.5 million in Colorado defamation suit | j. the ...May 12, 2000 ... DENVER --
A civil lawsuit that began with a neighbors' dispute over garden plants and. of accusations of plotting against their family for anti-Semitic reasons. ...
link to jweekly.com suit/
As said above I am not the one advocating this.
I am showing you it is already a plan by the Israeli right.
My God man, have you no sense of decency?
Samuel is right and you are..well, ...I hardly know how describe you. Except that I have seen your brand of zionist so often I usually don't even bother so comment.
Let me start with this:...
“If it was true that a Jewish state in Palestine could have been established only by murderous ethnic cleansing, then—as I explicitly said-- Israel should have not been established in the first place, and nor should it continue exist as a Zionist state, “...
It doesn't matter if it 'could have been",.. it wasn't. It was established by murderous methods. I am going to give you a objective place to start to learn about your own history and Israel, the British National Archieves.
Records, by those on the ground when the events took place. Now typically whenever I suggest to a zionist that they consult real history and actual facts regarding the Jews actions and violence immediately upon entering Palestine they reply that the British during the Palestine mandate or whatever other factual source of real history offered is all anti semitic and everyone is lying but the zionist.
link to archiveeditions.co.uk
Zionist Movement and the Foundation of Israel 1839–1972, The
And this?....
"Samel characterizes my argument about compulsory relocation in an essentially nonviolent manner as boiling down to requiring the Palestinians to leave “with bribe money stuffed in their pockets.” He means to cast contempt on my argument—as all good lawyers do—by characterizing it in the most unfriendly manner he can think of; worse, he doesn’t mention my full argument, namely that the Palestinians who would have to be relocated “could choose where they wanted to go, and would still get generous compensation for the loss of their homes and then also get financial assistance in picking up their lives wherever they chose to go.” Actually, reducing my argument to Palestinians leaving “with bribe money stuffed in their pockets” would be even more contemptuous of any Palestinians who felt they had no choice but to accept generously compensated removal.".....
Shows me you don't' understand how depraved you are. And the Israeli Zionist have already beat you to that suggestion --or perhaps you got it from them? Maybe you read this transparent "Hitlerian" mode of thought and thought it was a great idea?
link to jerusalemsummit.org
The Humanitarian Solution
- A Synopsis -
A. Assessment
1. The conventional-wisdom paradigm for the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has failed woefully, bringing nothing but misery and despair to both sides – but particularly to the Palestinians as individual human beings.
2. This conventional paradigm has attempted to solve the conflict by means of a Political Approach involving the establishment of a self governing Palestinian entity on territories in Judea Samaria and Gaza which have been under Israeli control since 1967 i.e. on the basis of a "Land for Peace" approach.
3. Dispassionate assessment of the history of the conflict and its current development will strongly suggest that persisting with attempts to attain a political solution on the basis the conventional paradigm are at best futile - and at worse harmful. Accordingly, alternative modes of resolution must be pursued.
B. Analysis
1. Analysis of Palestinian deeds and declarations over the years make it difficult to avoid the conclusion that they are in effect both unwilling and incapable of achieving and maintaining statehood.
(a) Palestinian Unwillingness: This is reflected in the fact that the Palestinians have rejected every single viable proposal which would have afforded them a state - from the 1947 partition plan to the 2000 Barak proposals.
(b) Palestinian Incapability: The Palestinian national movement has enjoyed conditions far more favorable than almost any other national independence movement since WW-II - widespread international endorsement of their cause, unmitigated support of a superpower in the decades of the Cold War, highly sympathetic coverage by the major media organizations, and over a decade of Israeli administrations who have acknowledged (and at times even identified with) the Palestinians declared national aspiration. In spite of this, the achievements of Palestinian national movement have been more miserable than almost any other national independence movement – bringing nothing but privation and penury to its people.
2. It is thus far easier to understand Palestinian conduct if one assumes that it is driven less by lack of Palestinian self determination and more by the very the existence of Jewish self determination; less by the aspiration to establish a Palestinian state and more by the aspiration to dismantle a Jewish state.
3. The latter, and seemingly more plausible, explanation of Palestinian behavior – i.e. rejection of Jewish self determination and the dismantling of the Jewish nation state – reflects an agenda totally unacceptable by any international standards and thus must be branded as devoid of any legitimacy.
4. Accordingly if the accepted version of the Palestinian narrative – i.e. a desire for Palestinian self determination and the aspiration for Palestinian statehood – cannot be reconciled with the history of Palestinian behavior, this narrative also must be branded as devoid of any legitimacy.
5. This issue of legitimacy of narrative is crucial. Indeed the very fuel of the Political Paradigm involving the establishment of a Palestinian state is the perception – or rather the misperception - of the presently prevailing Palestinian narrative as legitimate.
C. Conclusion
1. The establishment of a Palestinian State must removed from the international agenda.
2. However, removing the issue of a Palestinian state from the international agenda will not eliminate the humanitarian predicament of Palestinians residing in Israeli-administered areas.
3. This is clearly an issue that must be addressed and resolved. But it must be addressed not in political terms but in humanitarian ones.
4. Thus, to successfully resolve the Palestinian problem, the Political Paradigm must be replaced by a Humanitarian Paradigm. This, however can only be done if the current Palestinian narrative, which fuels the Political Paradigm, is de-legitimized.
5. Thus, the de-legitimization of the Palestinian narrative becomes a vital prerequisite to any comprehensive resolution of the Palestinian issue.
D. Proposal
1. A comprehensive Humanitarian Approach to the Palestinian issue would entail three major elements:
(a) The dissolution of UNRWA – which will end the discriminatory treatment of the Palestinians with regard to their status as refugees;
(b) The termination of ethnic discrimination against Palestinians , living in the Arab world - which will end the discriminatory treatment of the Palestinians with regard to their status as residents;
(c) Generous relocation grants to Palestinians living in Israeli administered territories on an individual basis and not via any official Palestinian organization.
2. UNRWA is an organization that perpetuates the Palestinian refugee problem. It is an anomalous organization which exists solely to deal with Palestinian refugees, while all the other refugees on the face of the globe are dealt with by the UN High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR).
3. The organizations not only deal differently with the refugees under their auspices, they each have different definitions for classifying an individual as a "refugee".
4. This difference in definition has far-ranging consequences. For in contrast to the UNHCR definition, which results in a decline in the number of refugees over time, the UNRWA definition leads to an inflation of the number.
5. In fact, if the UNHCR's otherwise universal definition were applied to the Palestinian case, the number of refugees would decline from 4-5 million to 200-300,000 i.e. by over 90%!!
6. It thus appears that UNWRA is perpetuating the very problem it was designed to eliminate.
7. Accordingly, the dissolution of UNRWA is an essential prerequisite for any comprehensive, durable settlement of the Palestinian issue.
8. With the dissolution of UNWRA, the remaining, and drastically reduced, number of Palestinian refugees, should be placed under the auspices of UNHCR - in accordance with the accepted practice for all other refugee groups on the face of the globe.
9. Those Palestinians no longer classed as refugees under the new arrangements, must be offered all the privileges afforded all other peoples resident in their current countries of domicile in the Arab world -- including the right to acquire citizenship.
10. In order to do this, a vigorous diplomatic and media campaign must be mounted to induce Arab governments to end their harsh discriminatory behavior towards the millions of Palestinians domiciled in their countries and absorb them into their societies as fully fledged citizens. After all, even the Palestinians assert (in the opening paragraph of their National Covenant) that they are “part of the Arab Nation”.
11. As for the Palestinians resident in Israeli administered territory, there is only one reasonable and feasible alternative that will facilitate:
(a) extricating them from their dire humanitarian plight;
(b) free them from the yoke of generations of misrule by their leadership;
(c) ensure the survival of Israel as the nation-state of the Jews.
12. This is a generous relocation and resettlement package to allow them to build a new life for themselves and their families in countries preferably, but not necessarily exclusively, with similar religious and socio-cultural conditions.
13. In order to minimize the ability of organized Palestinian interest groups to impede the success of such an effort, the offer of financial inducement to emigrate must be "atomized" – i.e. made to individual Palestinian breadwinners on a one-to one personal level and not on a communal level via some formal Palestinian entity.
14. A survey conducted among the Palestinians in Nov. 2004 indicates that only about 15% of the Palestinian population resident in Israeli administered areas would reject such an offer outright. By contrast, over 70% would accept some form of material compensation as an inducement to emigrate permanently from the areas currently under Israeli administration (see link to jerusalemsummit.org)
15. The economic cost of such a policy of generously financed humanitarian relocation and resettlement would be eminently affordable and would compare favorably with almost all other settlement proposals on the table today. Indeed, its total cost would be around 50% of the present total US outlay on the War in Iraq!!
16. Indeed, given Israel's present level of GDP, it is an initiative that it could well undertake on its own over the next decade to a decade and a half. It should be realized that this is the period that has elapsed since the initiation of the Oslo process – which has brought nothing but failure and tragedy at the cost of billions of dollars and thousands of lives.
17. Of course, if the US, the EU and other developed nations were to contribute to this effort, it could be implemented in a far shorter space of time and with almost no burden on the world economy.
18. Quite the opposite, the Palestinians arriving in their new countries of domicile will not be impoverished refugees but reasonably affluent émigrés. The funds that they would be bringing with them would provide a considerable boost for the economies of these nations – most of which would be developing countries with a pressing need for such a substantial influx of funds.
E. Summary
The proposed initiative constitutes a "win-win" proposal which will:
Alleviate, and even eliminate, the humanitarian plight of individual Palestinians
Ensure the continued security and survival of Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish people
Provide a Significant Boost to the Economies of the Developing World
Transform poverty stricken refugees into affluent émigrés
If you think your idea, which is the same as the JSummit idea is a good idea than you are sick beyond repair. Zionist of your type who think this is a humanitarian solution are exactly why the world despises Israel and zionism.
You claim Jews are 'entitled" to their own country because of the holocaust and becuase the world always hated them? The Romans hated you, the Christians hated you, the Egyptians hated you, Russia hated you, Spain hated you, the Turks hated you, Europeans hated you, Germany hated you......and the entire world is murderously anti semitic, including the US.....ad infinitum.
Well now the Arabs hate you too.
There is actually no point in going into long drawn out discussions of an I/P settlement, rehashing every effort, and picking apart every deal because in reality no matter what you are given, where ever you are, you will always make enemies, enough will never be enough.
And this is a harsh reply because it needs to be, no more tip-toeing thru the tulips....if you and the zionist want to keep living your destructive delusions and myths and entitlements go ahead, but you will be called on it...and no doubt answer for it eventually.
I guess everyone should be use to this zionist and Israeli attitude shown by Diehl. But I still find myself amazed every time I see Israel's US supporters write so publicly and boldly about how they intend to and do manipulate and control the United States government for the benefit of their foreign homeland.
That even the 'intent' by a 'group' to do this is tolerated by the public and most of all by those officials in our government, much less the fact they have done it for so long, simply shows how bizarre and truly Orwellian our government has become.
It cannot continue forever, inevitably they and Israel will drop that last straw on the US public. And what happens then I do not know, but something will happen.
They don't see that.
The Zionist are always claiming famous dead people ( dead is best so they can't speak for themselves) were ardent zionist.......did you know George Washington and Abe Lincoln were ardent zionist and the American Revolution drew it's inspiration from the Israelites?...yep, that's what they say. LOL
Well since there isn't actually a Jewish "People", in the sense of some unique ethnic or racial group the whole 'anti semitism' thing seems absurd.
Maybe to be accurate it should be 'Anti Judaism"...since Jews are made of all kinds of various races and ethnics, not a special genetic group, or one in which they all share one nationality or any of the other normally defining measurements of a 'people.'
Then we could have a seperate "anti Israel" classification....along with also a EU ruling on being 'anti Iran" or "anti Palestine" or the biggest on the hit parade -"anti America".
It does get ridiculous doesn't it? LOL
Every time the anti semitism censorship campaigns arise I think of a spider with a hundred legs who can 't get anywhere because it keeps getting tangled in it's own hairy tenacles.
The Invention of the Jewish People" by Shlomo Sand
link to amazon.com
I don't think even liberal Jews will change the lobby and Israel factor in US government and policy.......they still support Israel, support the aid, support the political favortism...as in J-Street. They will never believe that the US should treat Israel as we do all other foreign countries with whom we have relationships . And although there are some younger Jews working tirelessly to 'right' Israel, I am not sure there are enough of same opinion to make a difference. I see them as the nails but not the hammer needed to secure the lid.
The death of the lobby and the enabling relationship the US has with Israel will come from elsewhere. ..maybe from growing Arab nationalism and it's pressure on US interest, maybe from a angry and more informed public, maybe from Israel's next outrage...likely a combination with a political backlash.
The new self interested mood Americans are in now, when political candidates start vowing their undying support for a foreign country and promise to keep sending those billions of taxpayers dollars to Israel it's going to raise more hackles than it ever did in the past.
You are right you don't know.
And I can assure you that if Libya was a US set up the rebels would have started off better trained and better armed than what you are seeing.
Instead of swallowing everything that is put out by people who make a living blogging America is Satan, try thinking logically.
There is a lot of Bush Post Traumatic Stress Disorder evident in the knee jerk reactions and criticism over Libya.
First---what was the US alternative?
Do nothing and confirm for the Arab street that the US intervenes only for it's empire balance of power, status quo, oil and friendly autocrats and get criticized. Or intervene on the side of rebels trying to overthrow a proven stone cold killer and get criticized.
Second--- if we were interested in the oil equation we would have done nothing, we would have let Qaddafi smash the opposition and the oil "bizness" would have continued as usual.
Third---I disagree with Cobban---"There are myriad other ways that atrocities can be prevented "...no there aren't 'always' other ways to prevent atrocities and I have been in a war. Something in her own personal ideology is preventing her from understanding the nature of the beast in Qaddafi. Everything she could and probably has suggested for dealing with Qaddafi will only result in hurting the population, not him, and no matter how many African heads are sent to 'negotiate" with him, it will not change his MO. He would be even more empowered by his 'win'.
Fourth---whoever suggested we "wait for a genocide"--well, you are nuts. What would be the point of "waiting", the point is to prevent a genocide....even a possible genocide if we have good reason to believe one would be carried out and every Qaddafi expert says that is the revenge we could expect him to indulge in against a defeated opposition.
Fifth---this is one time Obama made the right decision, late but still the right one for the US...including putting the Arab states in the hot seat to police their own neighborhood. These ME revolts are not going back in the box, they are the 'trend". They will force a change in US policy. If the US wishes to have any influence and good relations with the ME it had better get on the right side of this trend. It is pointless to rant and rail about what the US did previously 99 times and automatically assume that 1 time we cannot act differently-- this is not Iraq or Afghan It is also pointless to rant about doing something in Libya and not doing something in Palestine or Bahrain---that there is going to be some hypocrisy is a given. BUT--the point is it will get harder and harder to maintain that hypocrisy with people empowered Arab states.
All the pundits and critics need to get with the long view and leave off the politics and hysterics. This particular intervention by the US in concert with others is a message--to both the ME rulers and the ME street.
Libya intervention could encourage others to revolt on the expectation that the US/UN/Others will rush to their aid and it could also encourage autocrats not get violent with protesters in their population. Probably both, and they will have to be dealt with on a individual basis.
My opinion is that Qaddafi needs to be taken out permanently....or all this is a total waste. And that it is highly unlikely the US will be installing any figurehead in Libya. The Libyans might get another sob but it won't be a US sob.
Most polling groups like Gallup, Zogby and Pew, even though Pew is attached to a Trust Foundation get 'paid" to do these polls---getting paid sometimes mean you get the results your client wants so you phrase the questions and poll areas to get the best results for them.
The most respected poll in the world is the World Opinion Poll done by the Univ of Maryland and financed by the Kennedy Foundation...their world poll isn't for "hire."
Last one showed 73% of Americans want the Us to be 'Even handed' in I/P.
Ditto that.
Oh Gawd, not again!
Palestines can 'demand' their vote all they want...who the hell do you think is going to give them that vote? Who?
And Who is going to make it stick if they get to vote? Huh? Israel? The US? Who?
Tell me how Palestine non violence works against tear gas, bulldozers, snipers, bombs, strafing, 3 billion US dollars and all the free weapons Israel can cart home. Any one see Israel giving them any of their land back because of their nonviolent protest? See any actual settlement building or confiscation freezes?
Palestine will get a fair deal when pigs fly or the US is too broke to suport Israel any longer.
Why are people so stupid?
Well, intelligence is defined as the ability to think LOGICALLY.
Sometimes called analytical skill.
IQ has nothing to do with what one knows, but how one thinks.
If you look at the problems on any IQ test you can see they are designed to measure problem solving by the process of 'logical elimination.'
Here's the answer to stupid:
IQ % of Population from Mensa
1% of the population have an IQ below 65.10
2% of the population have an IQ below 69.
19 5% of the population have an IQ below 75.33
10% of the population have an IQ below 80.78
20% of the population have an IQ below 87.38
50% of the population have an IQ below 100.00
*100 is considered the average IQ...so you are dealing with a population in which half of them are below average in intelligence....lacking the ability to think logically.
80% of the population have an IQ below 112.62
90% of the population have an IQ below 119.22
95% of the population have an IQ below 124.67
98% of the population have an IQ below 130.81
99% of the population have an IQ below 134.90.
If one is capable of viewing Israel and I/P 'logically' one would understand that Israel will never voluntarily cease to confiscate Palestine land or dial back their agression in the ME because they have no incentive or reason to stop doing what they plainly want to do. Israel will stop when a larger force makes them stop and not until then.
But the majority of people who discuss Israel don't want to acknowledge this, even the ones who understand it.
Instead of all these individual boats setting sail the better strategy, especially after the Turkish experience , is for ALL these groups to pool their resources and their boats and have at a least 10 or 12 ships underway or one really large ship with a dozen or more escort boats accompanying them.
Very gutsy of these ladies but to make an impression ..again after the prior experience....you need a big show.
“….because it helps explain some of Israel’s conduct.”.....
Bullshit.
"Tens of thousands of Israel, none of whom the enemy was worthy even to touch,”.....
Obviously your enemies thought you needed an 'attitude' adjustment.
Another note on Solzhinitsen's book.
He points out how 'class' inequity was a motivating factor among Jews who were the rural poor as that same class inequity attracted the non Jews to the Bolsheviks.
The descriptions of how the Bolsheviks executed or imprisoned the Russian elite and threw them out of their homes and moved in and took over their possessions reads much like the stories of how the Jews were turned out and had their belongings confiscated in Germany.
Also the descriptions of how the Russian middle class was discriminated against and denied admission to colleges and jobs and replaced with Bolshevik members, mostly Jewish Bolsheviks in administration and enforcement positions, is similar to Germany purging the Jews from positions and opportunities in Germany.
But the main difference to Russians between the Non Jewish Bolsheviks and the Jewish Bolsheviks was that the Russian citizens hated the Bolsheviks for trying to "Change" Russia thru their reign of terror.
Whereas they viewed the Jews among the Bolsheviks as trying to actually "Destroy" Russia ..destroy the "Character" of the "Russian State" and the State itself and therefore hated the Jews in Bolshevism more than the others in the movement.
The book is a complicated but interesting look at the dynamics involved in Jewish history in Russia.
Frankly it's amazing how Russia survived 20 years of utter chaos, a economic collapse, came back under Putin and is again a powerful nation country.
Really fascinating.
I don't know why Phil dwells on Jewish wealth as much as he does..but I continue to remain skeptical about the extent of that actual wealth.
I was looking at the current Forbes list and while a number are Jewish , those like Gates and Buffet remain at the top....but the 'list' really doesn't even really tell the whole story.
It would be interesting to see a 'world wide' listing of the wealthiest individuals by actual resource wealth they control.
I think the jewish wealth topic is hyped to some extent in the US by the 'way they spend their money":....1)in national politics and 2) in ways that attract public attention.
As far as wealth goes there are two kinds.... 1)ordinary cash and 2)resources necessary to create cash.
Until the day there is a universal energy alternative the real wealth resides with those who control the energy resources that power the commerce that produces the cash.
Look at Putin's retaking of Russia's resources to understand what he understood.
On any day that those countries and individuals who control the oil resources of Russia, Saudi, Iran, UAE and other oil producing nations decided to re order individual and world wealth they could do that overnight.
We all understand why they haven't done that...yet.
But they could and in that particular kind of chaos there would be no room for outside individual profit opportunist to take advantage of it.
This is what 99% of the so called US 'diplomacy' is really all about.
Scary isn't it.
'The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.
-Joseph Goebbels'
Have we reached the 'consquences' point yet?
I guess not.
I guess we need all the consquences to have already happened.
Instead of us just knowing what they are gonna be when they do happen.
The situtation of 'nothing left to lose' has been on my mind for a while now....wonder how much longer we have to wait?
Yes, things do keep getting worse.
If there was some angry tea bagger like organization that wasn't totally looney and full of bigots I would join it.
link to terrorresponse.org
This has got to be joke....or else the usual gov and zionist thinking that everyone else is stupid and we don't know their real purpose..
This report looks like a report they threw together by combing the interent for rants...and also obviously hacking into people's computers and emails...if they really did and didn't just make this up.
It's grade school...
And how do they expect anyone to believe those hokey testimonials from corporations thanking them for keeping them 'safe' from the public?
And this "Non Profit" is under contract to the Pentagon and does all this out of goodness of their heart?...and some 'donations"?
Pleeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzeeeee.....stop with the insults to our intelligence or we'll have to blow you up. Haha...stick that in your report.
I wonder if there will be an investigation...who initiated this contract?....and who told IRTT who to spy on?
Inquiring mind want to know.
Who is surprised? Not me.
Having spent the summer jump starting my aging mind by reviewing German and Russian history and now in the middle of Solzhenitsyn's 200 Years Together about Russia's civil war I am having deja vu moments every time I read about things like this..
I think you are right.
I have thought the zionist would go too far in the US with some outrage against the majority population's interest, but now I think the zionist demise will more likely come from an act of Israel itself.
It's not the world's job to" change Israeli hearts and minds"...it's the world's job to stop them from war crimes.
No one can dialog with a broken record.
Which is what the die hard zios are ...a broken record...playing the same scratch over and over.
Doesn't pain me at all to complain about zionist or my own government, or our whacko christians, any more than it pains me to complain about the slaughters in SA or elsewhere, or the corruption in our financial centers and congress. Every thing bad and wrong needs to be complained about, actually we should do more than complain, some people like Phil are doing more.
Here's my proposal.
First cut off the US money to Israel and bar their US imports.
If that doesn't make them think go to step two.
Step two, do fly overs dropping leaflets on Israel advising them to retreat to the borders of the UN charter.
Step three, if they don't comply, launch the USAF.
Problem solved.
I feel the same.
I hate the US zios and the US congress ......hate the congress more I suppose because all of them but the actual jewish ideological agents in congress allow this for money and 'politics".
I do believe the Israeli and zionist light will go out... not by the US hand, but by the collective outrage of the world.
Unfortunately there won't be anything left of Palestine by then.
Zionist have a need not to just build their own world but to destroy other people's history and civilizations.
"My wife said, “Why would someone be against that?”"
If she has to ask then she wouldn't understand.
Evidently she is not as into the fundamental issue of I/P as Phil.
Let me answer your idiotic question about 'perfected titles"..even though I doubt you even know what that means.
Here's how it would probably go in a court.
The expropriated land, the land seized after routing out the Palestines in 1948 went to the state of Israel under their " Absentees’ Property Law" transferred to the "Development Authority".
Which means...guess what?.....Israel has no deeds or conveyances to any of that property.
This was done with Palestine land under laws Israel created for Israel.
It was not done under Palestine RE law and no court in the fucking world would recognize the RE law of one country applying to the land and RE law of another. The US even has varying and different RE laws for land and ownership, different title and deed laws in it's states.
You don't know what you are babbling about. Titles, deeds and etc are absurd when discussing confiscated land across borders of a country.
In my opinion the law, specifically international law, the Geneva Conventions, Rome statutes and the ICC as an arm of the UN should be the
sole authority in these disputes and claims.
The Geneva conventions and the Rome statutes set out what the law is occupations and land confiscation...if a law is violated it follows that the law must seek a cure.
That is not to say the rulings would be the same in every case, ...BUT the laws remains the same regardless of how a settlement is reached.
The problem is and always has been ENFORCEMENT....the UN has no teeth.
In the case of the law and enforcement regarding I/P, the US at the UN Security council has been the main impediment to enforcement of the international law in I/P.
That is why no one in their right mind should be for 'political solutions."
The entire question of right of return should be taken to the ICC...who can then set the 'legitimacy" and criteria' to be followed for any and all countries and claims.
There will be enough 'politics' in the negotiations in the following lawsuits to suit everyone.
It seems to me if the politicans were going wear lapel pins they should have been ones signfying the New York Fire and Rescue Departments with the American flag.
Excellent recounting of Israel's attempt to hitch a ride on 911 for their own agenda.
I wonder how many people remember those little lapel pins with the Stars and Stripes intertwined with the Star of David that congressmen and senators were wearing after 911. I assume those pins were passed out by AIPAC or some similar organization.
That was extremely offensive to me.
They have no qualms about exploiting others tragedy for their own gain.
I have been thinking more about how the site for the Muslim Community Building may or may not have been an accident initially, but supporting it has turned out to be a smart move by the Muslim leaders.
What they have done is bring the US Muslim and Islam issue forward within the realm of the US Constitution and equal rights in a positive and peaceful manner.
By doing this they have forced the American public to choose, in a way, to walk our talk on democracy and our constitution or not.
Smart, very smart. They chose the founding basics of America to make their case as American citizens.
Good post Phil.
But I can't say I am surprised. I live within a triangle of 15, 25 and 50 miles of one of the largest US Marine bases, one Marine A/F base and one A/F base. Our area is a semi resort and retirement center for the military so half the people I know are current or former military and since my brother was a Marine Lt. in Vietnam I know his friends and have been in on many of their discussions. Israel is not liked among the veterans, the younger still active are less knowledge about US-Isr but are learning fast about the ME.
Within my acquaintance I have a friend whose wife lost her first husband on the USS Liberty at 22 and another whose husband was killed in Beirut.
One of my elderly friends is a former Brit whose uncle who killed in the King David hotel bombing.
It's a small world and getting smaller where Israel is concerned. Israel has wreaked a lot of havoc and the debris left behind is now speaking out in the new less censored Israel issue.
In my opinion Israel started really losing with the Gaza massacre.
My mostly conserative hometown newspaper front paged it with pictures of dead Palestine children and editorials condemning it.
I also noticed this today:
link to cnn.com
CNN did an investigative report on alledged sexual abuse of Palestine children Israel arrest.
I doubt CNN would have gone anywhere near this several years ago.
The bloom is off the rose for Israel. Israeli PR tactics remind me of a child who puts his hands over his eyes and thinks that means you can't see him.