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- Church of Scotland’s revised ‘Promised Land’ report has softer edges … 1
- Guatemalan genocide got assist from US, Christian Right, and Israel 5
- Barbara Boxer’s visa bill for Israel comes under concerted attack 11
- Exile and the prophetic: No dissenter is an island 1
- Islamophobia is as widespread and acceptable as anti-Semitism used to … 12
- Demonizing Mandy Patinkin is a tough sell 23
- ‘If I had to choose between the wealth of the … 13
- Rightwing Israeli group gets tax-deductible funds from US foundation 7
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- Israeli airport sorts passengers with ‘Jewish stickers’ and ‘Arab stickers’ 668
- ‘The policy of the present Israeli government is likely to … 485
- ‘Newseum’ folds under pressure, will not include Gaza cameramen in … 310
- Dershowitz calls Hawking an ‘ignoramus,’ a ‘lemming,’ and likely an … 202
- In photos: Gaza marches and rallies mark 65 years of … 148
- Glenn Greenwald brings facts and reason to ‘Real Time’, ruins … 145
- San Francisco bus ads condemn Israeli apartheid: backlash begins 119
- Washington state bus-ad campaign dares to state: ‘Equal rights for … 100
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- US Jews are so ‘polarized’ over Israel they can’t talk … 160
- Dershowitz calls Hawking an ‘ignoramus,’ a ‘lemming,’ and likely an … 149
- Glenn Greenwald brings facts and reason to ‘Real Time’, ruins … 88
- Israeli right-wing flys off the deep end following Hawking boycott 78
- International Criminal Court opens preliminary investigation into attack on Mavi … 74
- Israeli airport sorts passengers with ‘Jewish stickers’ and ‘Arab stickers’ 69
- ‘Newseum’ folds under pressure, will not include Gaza cameramen in … 62
- Church of Scotland backs away from boycott call in the … 62
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- Guatemalan genocide got assist from US, Christian Right, and Israel http://t.co/oJT9HsoQcD, 4 hours ago
- Barbara Boxer’s visa bill for Israel comes under concerted attack http://t.co/G5N0uJqOwT, 4 hours ago
- RT @War_Times: Blood on Israel’s Hands from #Palestine to the Mayan Highlands http://t.co/hAHRMXYXMm #Nakba @mondoweiss @jadaliyya #Guatema…, 2013/05/17
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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
"Read him for yourself, you’ll see it’s easier said than done. I consider this a tribute to his challenging words."
Most definitely a tribute...and in the same spirit...reading you, Prof Ellis, is not always a piece of cake.
"I can only imagine what it’s like to have fans and see them fade away. "
I am guessing you are too honest, Prof Ellis, to have a fan base. You should have a fan base of Christians, also...but I don't think we Christians like honesty any more than anyone else. I mean, why aren't you a full prof at a major Catholic university? I know...the answer to that is obvious enough.
Too much at stake in that dialogue...but I think I would feel blessed if my son could take a course from you at the Jesuit university he attends. That he cannot irritates me greatly...you should consider offering online courses?
It seems to me you are a unique ethical voice in many ways; as challenging to us Catholics as you are to Jews.
Very good point, Peter...here is a quote and link to Marc Ellis' essay on this very topic...
AT THE END OF AN ERA:
A Meditation on Ecumenism, Exile and Gratitude
by Marc H. Ellis
link to crosscurrents.org
"The ecumenical dialogue, once an avenue for Christian renewal, has become the ecumenical deal. The ecumenical deal is simple yet with profound implications: Jews demand that Christians in the West repent for the sin of anti- Jewishness; the main vehicle for Christian repentance is uncritical support for the state of Israel and its policies. Uncritical support for Israel renders Palestinians and Palestine invisible. Critique of Israel’s policies vis-à-vis the Palestinian people is deemed anti-Jewish and a return to the previous understanding of Jews within Christian theology and practice. Conservative, moderate and radical Christian academics uphold this ecumenical deal. Though in private they may be critics of Israel, yet even amid the resentment and pressure exerted to enforce the ecumenical deal, they remain in public silent."
Obviously speaking only for myself...but this entire post is wonderful.
" I am grateful that as a Jew I encountered this altered face of the Christian witness. It helped heal me heal from the wounds of the Christian anti-Semitic past."
I am also very glad you "encountered this altered face of the Christian witness." As I am glad that altered face exists; though it is much too small.
Thank you for pointing this out. Larry Derfner strikes me as a very decent person; and he has paid a rather hefty price, literally, for his opinions.
Mama mia, you are on your game today, Prof.
I would be curious to know your thoughts about...how long to recover? Foe Jews, I mean. Or are Jews forever changed? And your thoughts about Jewish liberation theology.
"Where else to start as a Jew than with the Palestinian people?"
Cool thought, Prof Ellis.
It is neither clueless or uncaring. The American Catholic establishment is quite aware of what is happening; as is the Vatican. And the Vatican decided, it seems, that the reform of the church vis-s-vis its' anti-semitic (or anti-Judaic) history was a necessity. What Prof Ellis has called the Ecumenical Deal partly explains the church's behavior, but I don't think it entirely explains it.
The church is concerned for both parties. While that may in fact end up not being in the best interests of Jews, as Prof Ellis has suggested, in this instance at least, any harm to Jews would most certainly not be the intent.
As a Catholic whose life was profoundly changed by a Jewish intellectual (Erich Fromm), it is depressing and bewildering to me to see the "Jewish World" expel people like Prof Ellis and Richard Falk. I end up wondering...how long before Jews don't recognize themselves anymore? (maybe that is arrogant and condescending of me to ask?)
Well...no doubt about it...I have a warped sense of humor...
...but this strikes me as a serious "political/religious Freudian slip"...as does that little wall surrounding Bethlehem.
"if we build expertise around our victimhood?"
Someone with a seriously functioning intellect could spend a few, or more, doctoral dissertations responding to Prof Marc's posts.
Expertise around our victimhood...yipes.
"the sort of language that in the Vietnam era we would have called wishywashy"
Wishy Washy? This? "targeting a single nation or state in this highly complex world is not appropriate and does little to advance the cause of peace and coexistence"
Phillip...you are much too kind. These are Olympic Gold Medal winning Weasel Words. So much so...I find them pretty amusing...if it were up to me...and lucky for Robert Birgineau it is not up to me...the good chancellor would have to spend some time in a Siberian VRC*
VRC = vocabulary reeducation camp
This post is genuinely outstanding.
"Cardinal Sean, as he likes to be called, should be ashamed."
Just my opinion, though I have read every one of your posts, but I think you are at your insightful best when discussing interfaith issues...not that insights about Jewish helicopter gunships are unimportant...maybe its because I am Catholic and find your views interesting, provocative, challenging, etc.
Thanks for your reply, Danaa; and my apology for such a delayed response - I don't know how to keep up with these threads...
But your comment is very helpful. Your comments are always extremely intelligent, thoughtful, insightful. Sometimes they leave me stunned.
Your sentence above about the harshest battle yet to come...that is a bit scary (maybe a lot scary). And I cannot imagine what Gideon Levy and Amira Haas go through.
Anyway, thanks again.
Great post, Adam.
But as an outsider (non Jew) it strikes me that this conflict is not even about, or between, Israelis and Palestinians.
It is, as Phil has often pointed out...about Jewish identity. Pure and simple.
Hophmi...you may want to read the last 2 paragraphs of this post.
"...many did not want to show their faces in public on this issue."
"I spoke to a handful of students outside, but nobody wanted their name to be published. "
"Another student remarked that he didn't want to make a comment about the Carter controversy that could jeopardize his future job prospects."
"Non-Jews have participated in this discussion for a long time. Nobody is keeping them from saying what they want"
Hophmi. with all due respect...how would you know this?
Why do you think most of us here do not use our real names?
For that matter...why don't you use your real name, if discussion of this topic is so benign?
"Jews in Arab lands were treated as at best second-class citizens..."
I have read this 3 zillion times (always by Israel supporters).
Could you be so kind as to supply at least some minimal amount of historical evidence for this statement? (i.e. evidence that existed prior to the State if Israel's founding...and evidence created by an historian without an "Israel axe to grind", so to speak? Such evidence may be abundant...but I have never seen it.
"As a precondition to negotiating a WMD-Free Zone, Israel demands..."
Israel seems to love "preconditions"...when it is convenient to do so.
"There can be no peace with a corrupt, rotten and dictatorial regime of terror," he said. " (this statement is almost funny...)
link to sptimes.com
Fear not, Dickerson!
Brett Stephens, fearless defender of Western values, is riding to the rescue...
link to speakersaction.com
Interesting and amusing.
It is apparently perfectly ok for Brett Stephens to accuse Chuck Hagel of being anti-semitic (for example), but when Stephens finds himself being accused of the same thing...suddenly he notices the "diseased politics" involved.
The lack of self-awareness is utterly astounding. Stephens has spent his career contributing to the political atmosphere he suddenly does not like so much, but only because he is now the victim; as opposed to him being able to victimize others, evidence be damned.
Chuck Hagel's Jewish Problem
link to online.wsj.com
Bret Stephens' Evidence Problem
link to thedailybeast.com
Stephens: Chuck Hagel's Courage
link to online.wsj.com
"Stephen says this rage is a symptom of a "diseased politics." He evidently means a component of the Israel lobby that doesn't understand that we're Americans first. These advocates are damaging their own cause by fulfilling an anti-Semitic canard-- Stephens means that they are supplying evidence of dual loyalty."
Evidence of dual loyalty? Really? Et, tu, Brute?
link to pjmedia.com
He (Brett Stephens) also said, “If I were an Israeli decision-maker, I would be drawing some conclusions” about the pick, and that “[Hagel's] idea of Iran is that it is a misunderstood country.”
Second that...congratulations to both. MJ Rosenberg strikes me as too nice a guy to have to live on planet earth. I hope this turns out to be a great place for him, and a great decision for Hamilton Fish.
DWS ..."the Jewish State"
DWS..."the Jewish and Israeli story"
Yet here we have Steve Hynd lecturing us on "lazy and sloppy language", which confuses the state of Israel with Jews worldwide...
link to stevehynd.com
"In addition to this I have come across lazy and sloppy language often confusing the state of Israel with that of Jews worldwide – not anti-Semitic in itself but a line of thought that when combined with vocal criticism of Israel’s actions in the occupied territories, can too often lead to anti-Semitism."
Gee, I cannot imagine why anyone other than an anti-semite could be so confused?
What utter nonsense. You can't have it both ways. You cannot make the connection (Jews and Israel) when it suits your purpose, and then shout Anti-semite! when that connection has been inculcated in non Jews.
Actually, you can try and have it both ways...and what you end up with (as many others have pointed out) is dramatically weakening the concept (and the moral power of the accusation) of anti-semitism, since you have now made it partially non-sensical.
"I think Obama has pretty much placed the ball in Israel’s court. That’s an enormous achievement.""
Well, no offense to anyone, but I don't find this brilliant at all. Obama placed the ball in Israel's court? Like it wasn't there already? (for the past 60 years).
Indulge a petulant child...give him more candy when he has a tantrum and is beating the daylights out of another child....and then lecture the child about how nice it would be if the child acted nice!!
Just how effective is that lecture going to be?
The longer the Palestinians are denied human rights, the closer the situation slouches toward violence. Where is William Butler Yeats when you need the guy?
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born."
Tooo funny
What I really don't understand, Donald (and can there be any doubt Obama knows very well what he is doing?)...maybe its a question...are American Jews angry about this sort of pandering?
He enables and empowers Israeli self-destruction...and then asks Israelis to "be nice" (so to speak) and let Palestinians have a state. It is idiocy.
First, behave with great injustice...and then ask for justice. What a wasted presidency.
I don't know about anyone else, but I think it pretty damn impressive when the President of the United States of America, a BLACK man, talks about "demographic threats"...
"Given the demographics west of the Jordan River, the only way for Israel to endure and thrive as a Jewish and democratic state..."
Truly unbelievable.
American...now this is funny...of course, it is not easy to find the hilarious aspect of this conflict, but by god, I try.
Rachmaninoff variations on a theme by Paganini...
from Antony Loewenstein's article today...
"What the Zionist lobby and its political and media courtiers don’t want to discuss is their complicity in this affair. They all believe that young Jews have the right to move, fight or spy for Israel, including during wars against Lebanon and Gaza, while Muslims who want to join their brethren in Syria, Lebanon or Palestine are labelled terrorists for doing the same thing."
I have always liked Prof Slater...but he has outdone himself here...this is tooo blinking funny..."comparisons to Nazi Germany are exaggerated"...
Assume he is the same Akiva Orr..?
link to israelimperialnews.org
"...but he is just too chicken shit."
Perhaps...but I wonder how long he would have his job if he addressed this issue honestly? I am guessing he would get to address the issue once, maybe twice...then poof...obscurity.
That means that the controversial use of so-called “signature strikes,” or strikes that the CIA carries out in Pakistan based on “patterns of life” without knowing the identity of those they are targeting, will be exempt from the Obama “playbook.”
This is morally twisted; really sick.
Even funnier...
No doubt about it...Mondoweiss is definitely the best place for a quick shot of morning humor
Too funny...
And let us not forget India...
link to youtube.com
Actually, I have been desperately trying to forget.
Oh, it’s not so bad...
Mooser, you are just tooo funny...
It seems to me that it is "leftists" like the above author who bear as much responsibility for the unfolding Israeli disaster as the right wingers.
Look at these comments...to Michaelson they seem self explanatory...no explication or explanation is necessary...furious with Hamas...understandably enraged at Palestinians...why, exactly?
"what supporter of Israel isn’t furious with Hamas? Who didn’t entertain a thought of “turning Gaza into a parking lot,” as one conservative friend of mine proposed? It’s natural to feel these emotions — but ill-advised to act on them, and cynical to exploit them."
"... a population that is (understandably) enraged at the Palestinians. . ."
Avi, this is Excellent!
"...sends a powerful message that violence is redemptive."
Amazing how much I seemed to have missed during 16 years of formal Catholic education. You don't suppose, Pilgrim, that the message was actually "suffering is redemptive"? Particularly when undertaken for others?
I will say this again...you cannot logically assert that Christianity (per se) is responsible for the violent behavior of Christians...without somehow accounting also for the selfless behavior of countless Christians (as noted in post below).
It makes far more sense to simply assert that the violence some Christians have inflicted on others, including fellow Christians, is due to the human capacity to ignore moral precepts (Christian or otherwise).
In all honesty, it is astounding to me any one raised Christian could come to the conclusion that the message of Christianity is "violence is redemptive".
Well, if this wikipedia review is accurate...and it seems to be extensively well documented...the behavior of the Poles in the second world war was nothing short of astounding...given that assistance to Jews meant death...
link to en.wikipedia.org
I admit my own very strong bias against the "Christianity was the cause of the Holocaust" argument. It seems to me that argument is asserted when the evidence seems to fit "the Holocaust happened in the heart of Christian Europe"...and it is also asserted when the evidence is entirely contradictory...as with the Poles and the Italians.
Hannah Arendt suggests that the Italian refusal to participate in the slaughter of Jews was due to the "outcome of the almost automatic general humanity of an old and civilized people". Couldn't possibly be related to Christianity...what impact could Christianity have had on Italian civilization?
As an ethnic Italian...I'll gratefully accept the complement. But the fundamental issue remains...
It makes no sense to blame Christianity when Christians do terrible things...and leave Christianity out of the discussion when Christians do wonderful things (i.e. so many Poles risking their lives...and giving their lives...to assist and protect Jews.)
Or am I missing something?
I realize this might be a minor issue...but then again maybe not...
Jodi Rudoren was strongly criticized on this web site just within the last month or two; and it struck me as quite unfair. I don't think this woman has even the tiniest malicious impulse in her entire personality.
If she can tell the truth about what is happening over there...and stand up to Elliott Abrams in the process...well, that's pretty impressive, no?
"wasn’t hugely not just"...it seems to me any English speaking human who uses this phrase..."wasn’t hugely not just"...is not intellectually capable of being a university president.
Wasn’t Hugely Not Just!!!...astounding the faculty at Columbia would tolerate this nitwit.
This post is so outstanding I don't even know what to say about it...it is humbling to read it. And everyone should read it.
Wow
Good news from France...maybe you are right, Phil...about things starting to change...
France to back Palestinian bid for UN status
link to bbc.co.uk
On the other hand...Jim Crow dies hard...
Racism evident behind some US social media
link to bbc.co.uk
Geez Louise, indeed!
I could not agree more, Dan. Rather uppity of Phil to self identify with Jews...never mind the "different time, different place"...and he is taking a bullet to the back of his head; or inhaling some rather unpleasant substance.
What is it about "us" that is problematic?
What is it about this conflict that makes it so difficult for people to think clearly?
Absolutely! Very funny...
I can't think about this "message to our infiltrator brother" without wondering...what would be the state of the middle east today if the Christians of Europe had been able to extend a similar greeting of brotherhood to Jews...say about 100 years ago.
you are one cool guy, Shmuel...as was Yehoshua Radler-Feldman.
Always like your comments...my only criticism would be that you do not comment more often.
Excellent post by Prof Desch; and great news that Yehuda Bauer has changed his mind about Roosevelt.
Maybe there is some good news here, Shmuel? Below is link to Rabbi Brant Rosen's web site...he has posted what seems like a very heartfelt and sincere review of this issue. This is how he ends his post...
"We can only hope that these Christian leaders will stand firm and that this sad episode will lead us to a new kind of interfaith covenant — one based on trust and respect, a willingness to face down our fear and suspicion of one another, and a readiness to discuss the painful, difficult issues that may divide us.
Will the American Jewish establishment be up to such a task?"
link to rabbibrant.com
Also a link to another article by Rabbi Rosen, and Rabbi Alissa Wise addressing the same topic...
link to huffingtonpost.com
Extraordinary post, Danaa. In many ways. You give new meaning to the concept of insight. This comment in particular...
"Schisms do not however occur without great pain and turmoil all around, and quite a bit of real danger too."
There is real danger, I think. I wonder of that is not what Phil and Adam are feeling, consciously or otherwise.
I think it is time we looked in to cloning Mooser.
Well, I think you are correct, Binyamin. I reacted quickly and strongly to Klaus...my bad Italian temper. But I have vivid memories of my mother speaking about Roosevelt as though he was a saint...and he had to deal with a world falling apart...and an American population opposed to war. Would it make sense for African Americans to criticize him for not addressing lynching (and he did not address it...he needed the southern Democrats).
I think it could be argued that Roosevelt saved the west from itself...from self-destruction...could more have been done for the Jews of Europe? Probably...but I would guess far less than it is now easy to suppose.
Bomb the camps? And the rail lines leading to them? What if we had? The Germans had already demonstrated they could kill astounding numbers of people simply by shooting them. Maybe a lot more could have been done; I honestly don't know.
But it is not as though the Germans were military pushovers...not like Roosevelt was playing chess. There was no guarantee we would win...like Woody corrected me below...it was the Soviets who defeated the Germans...at a horrendous cost in lives.
As usual, you are correct, Mooser. That miserable man (FDR) was not perfect.
Revisionist nonsense.
He had to deal with a US population that did not want any part of a European war. He allowed Pearl Harbor to happen to ensure we entered the war. And I have no doubt that (Pearl Harbor) troubled him until the day he died.
What would have been the result of our NOT entering the war (and winning it), Krauss? How many European Jews would have survived then?
It seems to me some people look for the worst in others...however much evidence there is to the contrary.
Krauss..."America hadn’t even lifted a finger to save any Jews during the Holocaust(often with Jewish advisors close to FDR, who were so paralyzed on this topic and other Jewish issues that you’d be forgiven that they were afraid of their own shadows. They whispered in the ear of FDR and actively advised against saving any Jew, pleading with him to ‘ignore the Jews’, for fear of being accused of dual loyalty)."
Perhaps you could be more specific? Other than defeating the nazis...at a rather significant cost of American lives...what do you think FDR could have done?
This would certainly be my approach.
“Bibi’s got the Looney Tunes bomb”...
...Daffy Duck with Bomb Painting
link to comics.ha.com
Shingo...you are so unfair. She is an...
1. AEI Scholar!! and ...
2. a long-time Senate Committee on Foreign Relation senior professional staff member for the Near East and South Asia, and...
3. the point person on Middle East, Pakistan, India and Afghanistan issues, and...
4. the vice president for foreign and defense policy studies at AEI, and...
5. Pletka writes on national security matters with a focus on Iran and weapons proliferation, the Middle East, Syria, Israel and the Arab Spring, and...
6. well, i seem to be running out of space.
Gee, those AEI people love long titles and descriptions, don't they?
I gotta get me some of them titles...
Mooser Award! Mooser Award!!
Unless I am mistaken , Blagojevich went to jail just for planning to do something like this.
Ned "...although he may not have any discernable principles"...
Now that comment definitely deserves a Mooser Humor Award.
"Why do you think I added the extra “o”?"
??? Am I to assume, Mooser, that your nickname has nothing to do with...Moose and Squirrel??
I don't mean to say I am shocked and disappointed...
Mea culp, mea culpa ...I now stand corrected.
Thank you, Mooser!
My goodness...aren't we critical...
"...and Jewish, Christian, Muslim solidarity" (from one of your lectures available on Youtube).
Marc, could you write, sometime, your thoughts about this?
"Otherwise, this is a great example of 50-somethings wanting to pretend they’re teenage revolutionaries. "
schlemiel,...you point me toward a teenager who can write like Phil...I'll buy a copy of whatever he (or she) is writing.
"The June 8 Gallup poll showed Jewish American support for a Democratic president at 64 percent..."
link to dailyherald.com
Not only do the Palestinians throw stones...it has been reported (I am sure I have read this somewhere) that often they use Bad Language!! (when they are being shot, tear gassed, drone hell-fired, etc etc).
No doubt about it, Palestinians are their own worst enemies.
Been waiting a long time for this post, Phil. As usual, clear, brilliant and very painful. As a Catholic who has spent the last 12 years trying to understand the bishops non-response to pedophilia, and the anti-Jewish history of the church...well, its not fun.
But you are absolutely correct...for Jews, the spiritual damage is done (and on going)...and it will be many, many decades in the undoing. Catholics and other christian denominations have spent the past 60 years examining their anti-Jewish history, and its a long way still from resolution.
And Jewish intellectuals have been an intimate part of that process; have not hesitated to point out our moral failings relative to Jews...and I think that has been perfectly understandable.
I cannot help but think, in the same manner, Palestinian intellectuals will not hesitate to hold the Jewish community's feet to the fire, so to speak (when the opportunity occurs...as it inevitably will occur). As you mention...there is no shortage of evidence.
I'd like to know how Georgetown University (a Jesuit institution) seems to find faculty members like this (Mathew Kroenig...assistant professor of Government at Georgetown University).
How does a Catholic Jesuit university justify faculty members who advocate preemptive war? Absolutely appalling...at least to this Catholic.
It might be a precisely correct comparison. The terms Britain (and the other allies) imposed on Germany after the first world war were certainly considered "an unjust attack" by Germany.
You are familiar with the result, no?
David Yerushalmi
link to saneworks.us
Steven Emerson
link to steveemerson.com
Robert Spencer
link to jihadwatch.org
...the free sex vacation...a weeklong, all-expenses-paid orgy in the desert...
Phil, you are not gonna believe this...I just remembered! I don't know how this could have slipped my mind...I am Jewish!!
Uh...where do I sign up?
"the 15-points-above-average-IQ reasoning"...
No doubt about it, Bruce...you are today's lucky winner of the "Mooser Mondoweiss Humor Award".
Good point, Boulos.
Here is a Palestinian Christian...Philip Farrah... responding to Michael Oren a few days ago in Huffington Post...
"I am a Palestinian Christian, now a U.S. citizen, and my own experience and that of my family attest to the falsity of Ambassador Oren's assertion."
Here is a link to his article...
link to huffingtonpost.com
.This nice catholic guy says...Three Cheers for the Quakers! And you, Joe.
And I would love to know who the Catholic priest was...unless that would violate a confidence in any way.
Mooser, I have no choice...you are today's winner of the Mooser Mondoweiss Humor of the Day Award!! (which award is apparently well named).
Actually, with a little tweaking, I think the New testament can be brought into line with colonialism.
"You just have to love the Left, believing that their worldview of things is just always going to rule."
You got that right, Sin Nombre.
Thank god so many conservatives came to Ozzie Guillen's defense the last few days.
Or did I miss that?
Sorry you have to experience this, Rich. I'd like to read your defense of Gilad Atzmon. I have come to the conclusion Atzmon is being routinely smeared. And as for Abunimah's opinion of Atzmon...well, Abunimah is wrong.
And based on Avi's comment after your post on Feb 4th...
"I recently watched your performance of the song In Palestine, followed by an interview. I enjoyed them both and the song was very moving. Thank you."
link to vimeo.com...
I went and listened. mama mia...song is absolutely beautiful.
"Governer Krispy Kreme"...tooo funny, Woody.
I hereby give you today's Mooser Mondoweiss Humor Award !!
Uh, unless I am mistaken, he is Catholic. We don't do that Christian Zionism thing (at least we are not supposed to).
On the other hand, it certainly makes sense to me that a person who is Catholic, and is ethnically Sicilian, Irish and Scottish, would choose to visit Israel before any place else. Where else could he possibly want to go?
Puuhleease...it has been a long time since someone called me wop or dago, but its' not like I don't remember. So when I described myself as an Italian American, it was in response to precisely what Woody describes. (and no complaints about the wop and dago thing...tinker toys compared to what other ethnics have experienced).
But it was the white protestant (conservatives) who thought...and still think...they are the only true Americans...that are the source of the problem (if it is a problem).
But to be much less nice than Woody...to find yet another phenomenon (harmless in my opinion) to "blame"on leftists strikes me as typical conservative mush-thought. Typical conservative lack of thought.
With all due respect (I guess) Dan, your post above strikes me as nearly incoherent as anything Richard Witty used to say. (the second to last paragraph makes so little sense it is positively awe inspiring.)
I keep reading bits and pieces of Atzmon's articles. I have listened to a few interviews. Could the people who trash him, including Palestinians, provide evidence for what they say about him? That evidence may very well exist...but I haven't seen it yet.
Hi Eljay. In answer to your question...its complex.
1. Nice post, Phil...I think. Then again, it strikes me as so...20 minutes ago. Given how quickly and seriously we Americans are abandoning our commitment to human rights, etc. (including our own civil, legal and human rights).
For a rather in depth approach to American Civil Religion, a link to Robert Bellah's writings...
link to robertbellah.com
2. Hophmi...does indeed make some absurd points. But also makes some very good points. More on that later...if I have the time.
Ben Adler "If you want to boycott Israel itself, then you need to explain why you’re not calling for a boycott of other countries in the Middle East which oppress their own citizens worse than Israel does anyone living within the Green Line."
Noah Pollak "Global March to Jerusalem needs a more accurate name, like Global March to Become Target Practice for the IDF."
When public intellectuals (and I obviously use the term "intellectual" here rather loosely) like Adler do not respond to comments like Pollak's (a comment I suspect, if made by a German citizen about Jews, would earn that German citizen a prison sentence) what right does he have to tell anyone else what they NEED to do if they choose to boycott Israel. ?
What exactly is your point? Tel Aviv could not be "vital, energetic and wealthy" without America's support. Sullivan speaks the truth. If that is "provincial"...so what?
Once again...thanks, Annie.
...2nd to last paragraph..."...threatens to eclipse Israeli democracy, corrupt Jewish ethics..."
and I found myself thinking, relative to Phil's post about Noah Pollak and Rachel Abrams...threatens to...corrupt? For these 2 at least, way past threatening.
Both of them are so morally warped it defies description.
I agree...very interesting article, Annie.
But I think the most significant aspect of Andrew Sullivan standing up (and that is the right phrase) to Goldberg is that Sullivan, like Walt and Mersheimer, is not Jewish (he is Catholic). I think in some significant ways what Sullivan is doing takes more courage. He has no academic standing. If he can take the withering assault...more will undoubtedly follow.
I can certainly understand Goldberg's frustration...what gentiles have been able to withstand the public accusation of anti-semitism (since the end of WW2))? Not many. And as a result, I think Goldberg et al have simply assumed they can do as they please on this issue....dictate the discussion. As Phil has pointed out many times...American Jews do not want American gentiles involved in this discussion.
I don't mean to underestimate Walt and Mearsheimer...but Sullivan is doing the equivalent of Gary Cooper in High Noon.
He is out there all alone.
Excellent link Bumblebye...this young man...Saar Szekely...says Israel is on the brink of catastrophe. I think Phil and his friends have also said as much, in different ways.
And yes, very gutsy guy.
I unfortunately agree with you, Phil. I don't want to make more of this than it is, but it is my impression the Rabbi has not the slightest idea of the unpleasant implications of calling assimilation a disease, and those implications are probably not his intent...but are there none the less.
It is always fascinating to read your posts, Jack.
When he comments (at about 4:45) about "the disease of assimilation"...wow. ..kind of leaves me (almost) speechless.
Well, Kathleen, I am a Catholic, and I can definitely tell you my mind comes and goes quite frequently. It is not always as easy as it looks...that is, being a running lackey dog of the Papacy. But by god, somebody has to do it.
So what are we supposed to think when an American says something like this...
"In a talk to an Israeli group in July, 2010, Adelson said he wished he had served in the Israeli Army rather than the U.S. military—and that he hoped his young son would come back to Israel and “be a sniper for the IDF,” a reference to the Israel Defense Forces.
(YouTube video of speech link to youtube.com)
“I am not Israeli. The uniform that I wore in the military, unfortunately, was not an Israeli uniform. It was an American uniform, although my wife was in the IDF and one of my daughters was in the IDF ... our two little boys, one of whom will be bar mitzvahed tomorrow, hopefully he’ll come back-- his hobby is shooting -- and he’ll come back and be a sniper for the IDF,” Adelson said at the event.
link to firstread.msnbc.msn.com
Phil's...his own efforts are encouraging Dreyfus like discourse.
And that is a bad thing, eee? ...no offense, but you might want to spend a few minutes learning about the Dreyfus phenomenon. Here is what Lenny Brenner has to say about it...
link to marxists.de
"His (Hertzl) universal pessimism caused him to misjudge totally the political environment of late-nineteenth-century Western Europe. In particular, Herzl misunderstood the Dreyfus case. The secrecy of the trial, and Dreyfus’s soldierly insistence on his innocence, convinced many that an injustice was done. The case aroused a huge surge of Gentile support. Kings discussed it and feared for the sanity of France; Jews in remote hamlets in the Pripet Marches prayed for Emile Zola. The intellectuals of France rallied to Dreyfus’s side. The socialist movement brought over the working people. The right wing of French society was discredited, the army stained, the Church disestablished. Anti-Semitism in France was driven into isolation lasting until Hitler’s conquest. Yet Herzl, the most famous journalist in Vienna, did nothing to mobilise even one demonstration on behalf of Dreyfus. When he discussed the matter, it was always as a horrible example and never as a rallying cause. In 1899 the outcry compelled a retrial. A court martial affirmed the captain’s guilt, 5 to 2, but found extenuating circumstances and reduced his sentence to ten years. But Herzl saw only defeat and depreciated the significance of the vast Gentile sympathy for the Jewish victim.
The wackiest army in the world?
tooo funny
"Are you joking? That you would censor from discussion on the merits of disagreement about some historical event."
Is it just me, or is this an astonishingly ignorant statement?
Absolutely agree. Hostage's knowledge of Israeli law is stunning.