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- Informant’s text messages shed new light on NYPD spy program … 0
- Why did ‘NYT’ serve as platform for ‘military propaganda’? 0
- Reluctantly taking down monstrous orientalist video, college union in Israel … 0
- George Orwell would hate Israel 10
- First photographs of ‘Arabs with Altitude’ and Palestinian flag … 0
- Exile and the Prophetic: Freeing the president 0
- Why Palestine is different 7
- PLO: Israel has built 16,000 settlement units over the past … 1
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- Two friends meet for 5 minutes in Jerusalem 1709
- Palestinian-American Raed Zidan plants flag on top of Everest, dedicates … 1362
- Christians denounce Israel’s manhandling of worshipers at Holy Sepulcher on … 952
- Barbara Boxer’s visa bill for Israel comes under concerted attack 810
- Washington Post’s racism map omits Israel 438
- Israeli report on al-Dura case is vengeful and ‘surreal,’ says … 401
- There’s been a sea change in US opinion on the … 314
- Video: Soldiers aim guns at fallen boy’s head outside West … 302
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- Kennedy’s insistence on right of return prompted Ben-Gurion to rewrite … 106
- Abulhawa declines to ‘balance out’ several Israelis in ‘Al Jazeera’ … 94
- Barbara Boxer’s visa bill for Israel comes under concerted attack 93
- Washington Post’s racism map omits Israel 73
- Biden says Jewish ‘influence’ behind American cultural politics is ‘immense… … 57
- Two friends meet for 5 minutes in Jerusalem 54
- Israel cracks down on American travel to West Bank by … 50
- Both Massad, and ‘Open Zion’, ignore the experience of Middle … 49
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- Informant’s text messages shed new light on NYPD spy program targeting Muslims http://t.co/J7dbBLZZXl, 3 hours ago
- Exile and the Prophetic: Freeing the president http://t.co/FXU8YRToQS, 4 hours ago
- First photographs of ‘Arabs with Altitude’ and Palestinian flag atop Everest http://t.co/jQQ6xcFAWw, 4 hours ago
- George Orwell would hate Israel http://t.co/pXjc9SBxNL, 4 hours ago
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- Hostage: P.S. Netanyahu has advocated an economic peace rather than an end to the occupation for years. I have no...
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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
@ Miriam6
Could you please provide some materials to counter the recent poll in which Israel ended up – well, you know. It looks as if you guys are using the wrong urgencies.
"Israel, North Korea, Pakistan and Iran came out worst in terms of how they are viewed globally."
link to bbc.co.uk
"Evaluations of Israel’s influence in the world have slipped a little further into negative territory in 2013. On average, in the 22 tracking countries surveyed both in 2012 and 2013, 52 per cent of respondents had negative views of Israel’s influence in the world, an increase of two points from last year. At the same time, the proportion of respondents giving Israel a favourable rating has remained stable at 21 per cent. Out of the 25 countries polled in 2013, 20 lean negative, three lean positive, and two are divided."
link to worldpublicopinion.org
[Thanks German Lefty, for the links]
He's got three weeks left to force the Israeli's out of the Westbank and East Jerusalem. After that he's out of the game. Hopefully the ICC, ICJ and other institutions will take over.
Actually he looked hungry.
@TonyRiley
We have a shot-down father and a solid medical testimony of his wounds (notably in the Sheba Hospital, Tel Aviv). We have a killed boy. We have a purposely ruined place delict. We have a report from a commission that refused to speak to the main actors and didn't investigate the boy's DNA. We have an active Israeli policy of killing children; 1520 were killed since 2000, many on purpose. And so on.
So what exactly can you produce to make up for your 50 percent?
@ Citizen
"Anybody produce the evidence of the father’s stay in the hospital?"
Sure, see the above link. Fifty pages of evidence.
Note that Rafi Walden is the director of the Sheba Hospital in Tel Aviv and the son in law of Shimon Peres. Nevertheless Dr. David could raise from the ashes in the new report. Let's hope Mr. Walden wil stand up once more.
"The Franco-Israeli surgeon Yehuda David is quoted in the report’s appendix as saying the father’s injuries could have been sustained prior to the incident filmed by France 2’s cameraman. But David bases his claim on medical reports and did not examine Jamal Al-Durrah himself after the incident."
Ah, the notorious Dr. David is back. Petty the committee forgot a couple details:
link to haaretz.com
Princeton heroes. Bravo!
@ Hophmi
"Whether the public has a right ..."
Don't complicate things. Let's just stick to what we've been seeing – a totally hysterical act about the fact that BDS was discussed. The fact that Fidler and others tried to intervene is, from a European (at least Dutch) perspective, unthinkable. Fidler has been trying, by blackmail, to enforce his political agenda upon an academic institution. That should cost him his job. End of story. Maybe replace him by a Palestinian – as a matter of balance, you know?
By the way – for all Fidlers in the room – the worst has yet to come ... BDS is just warming up.
In February 2012 there was another 'Israeli victory' in the Al-Durra-case, when Netanyahu thanked a certain Dr. David for debunking Jamal al-Durra's 'claim' to have been shot himself, and then winning a case in a French court.
But than something unforseen happened (re. the tweets of Charles Enderlin in Phil's above post):
link to haaretz.com
There is a press release form the PLO denying the latter fact, and the Times of Israel has a piece up denying it as well (featuring EU officials).
One of the quotes, as mentioned by Haaretz:
"Lapid said the large swaths of land known as East Jerusalem that Israel captured from Jordan in the 1967 war and later annexed must stay Israeli because 'we didn’t come here for nothing.'”
I my country this birthright thing is looked upon as a criminal, colonial act. It also highlights the fact there is no such thing as a Jewish people.
@ German Lefty
After thinking this over a bit more I have to conclude that I respect Susan's stand a lot. How can you 'discuss' the Nakba with the people that committed it (and/or whose government keeps on doing so)?
Besides, what is there to 'discuss'? There is only one version of the Nakba, and that's the Palestinian version. You don't 'discuss' that, unless you want to suggest there is a legitimate debate going on.
I noted your mentioning of 'innocent' Israeli's and of the likes of Pappé and Hiver, but from Susan's POV this has no further meaning. 'Not on this day' also goes for them, and I can fully appreciate that.
The first moment to (be able to) 'discuss' the Nakba honestly and successfully is when Palestinians and Israeli's share the same fate and future within the 1SS. That will be the day the Israeli's come to terms with their bloody past. Otherwise, there is nothing to discuss.
@ German Lefty
"I have a problem with this view. Apparently, Susan believes that the word “Israeli” is synonymous with “Jewish Zionist Nakba denier”. (...) Throwing all Israelis into the same pot is unfair, to say the least."
Well, I'm sure she knows better, so I guess that's not the reason of her attitude. But can you imagine she has a problem discussing this with anyone who lives on her land? If that were the case I don't think that's unfair at all.
Thank you Susan Abulhawa, thank you.
May I suggest that these Israeli's discuss their uncomfortable thoughts about the Nakba on their own networks, inviting 3-4 Palestinian victims and 1 Israeli?
Man, I can hardly believe a candidate comes up with a flyer like this, even apart from the discussed quote. In a small-sized European town you won't stand a chance like this. This is LA, right? As far as I was able to establish people can actually read over there.
The biggest joke of course is the fact that Wendy, as a City Controller, uncovered $ 160 millions worth of waste, fraud and abuse. But obviously she missed this yearly $ 3 billion being spent on het steadfast overseas hobby. I'm not sure it's very clever to approach the Latino voters like this.
In the wake of this subject: I just saw the Israeli documentary 'The law in these parts' (2012), that deals with the system of military laws in the Westbank, and the courts that rule them. The film actually is a (unique) series of interviews with military judges, prosecutors and advisors that served between 1967 and today, who tell about their job to protect 'the system' (changing the laws along the line to accommodate new 'facts on the ground'). Very telling. Go see it if you can.
link to thelawfilm.com
@ German Lefty
Absolutely right. This map is a joke. Looking at the colors it must be American-made. Probably in Washington. Oops.
@ IL1948
"It is, in fact, the most tolerant nation in the region." [etc.]
I have a suggestion for you, Ilyushin. Go to one of the settlements – say Maale Adumin –, look up a couple of white guys with beards, and tell them this joke. I'm sure they're gonna love you. As in 'fascists among each other'.
@ ivri
So when it says 'Made in Israel' is comes from outside that country, but when it says something else it might be from Israel. Very advanced, indeed.
Absolutely right. What we are demanding here from supermarkets, universities and the like is a total breach of all ties with the occupation.
@ Lysias
'Catchy title'.
And a very interesting article.
@ Frankier
This is not about 'intentions'. The ship sailed under Comoros registration, meaning that a logical path to the ICC on behalf of the victims is through them. Secondly, as one of four nations the Comoros can be officially addressed to bring the case to the ICC. And thirdly, as you noted yourself, they have a tight economy on the Comoros. Piracy and terrorism are of course a major threat to their business. They don't want this to happen again – so much seems clear. (I guess we should call that an 'intention'.)
All this seems logical to me, well-motivated, and in their best interest. I think much more important is the point Hostage brought up above: who is going to join the Comoros to put pressure on the ICC-case? It is now a matter of volume (call it 'facts on the ground'), and there is nothing complex about getting the ball rolling, as the Comoros have just shown.
This is a meaningful event that should not be taken for granted too easily. Word should go out toward the BDS Movement, the Russell ToP, and others, to support the Comoros' step by calling on the ICC themselves. It should be on the agenda for their next meeting, and taken care off within a month. That's the timetable we're talking about here.
If indeed valuable time can be won (re. Hostage's last paragraph), if indeed this is now the shortest path in fighting Israel's injustice, we should take this serious and bring it to the attention of our (local, national or int'l) BDS Movement and the RToP. The snowball is waiting at platform one.
The Arabic verb (with kha) indeed means to boast or lie, among other meanings like to mince or chop up — Hans Wehr, A dictionary of modern written Arabic.
I've written, no answer yet. I do suggest that we all write.
Excellent piece. Thanks, Joe.
@ yrn
"I would prefer to see a breakthrough that will bring to negotiation."
It's clear that the Palestinians have no partner for negotiations.
Dear neighbour,
I often wonder: are they in Europe or are we in the Middle East? Or 'are we all Israeli's?'
Next month our countries will play each other at the European Soccer Championship for youth teams. The tournament will be held in Israel. Palestine is not competing. Israel is.
It must be tough living in the Old City, seeing the native population being ethnically cleansed while you walk to college. We are not talking about 'flaws' here (as you seem to think), but about organized, institutional crimes that take place each day on behalf of 'proud Jews' like yourself. Your behavior puts you on the side of the criminals. Face it.
As for the 'enormity' that Jerusalem has for the 'entire Jewish people'. No, Jerusalem is a Wall of Shame for every Jew in the world. The crimes committed there have absolutely nothing to do with jewish standards. On the contrary. Speak for yourself, but not for me!
@ yonah
'We are all idiots'.
In november 2009 the Chilcot Commission took off on the fifth British inquiry about the Iraq War. Within the next months the commission will report on its findings. Things don't look good for Teflon Tony.
No Red Bull. Ziocane.
@ Hostage
True. But at the same time we should blame Intel for being there at all. If they have just a bit of Intel Inside they should get out of that place.
@ Miriam6
I love your comparison between Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and 'America’s barbaric treatment of the Guantanamo inmates'. Well phrased.
About 'singling out': How is your Tibet campaign coming along? I am sure most of us here will join in right away.
So, who's next on the show? Curveball?
... and that Palestinian dances remind her of Israeli ones …
This is too crazy, W! Unless it was The Last Dance, of course.
This is an important interview, Phil. Thanks so much.
@ David Doppler
I agree completely with the follow-up idea. And the question why the editor believes there is little reaction on Ehrenreich's piece is crucial – starting point for a much needed discussion.
@ Menachem
The right of return implies return to the place they were driven away from: Jaffa, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, etc. Most people in Gaza were driven out of Israel, and that's where they are justified to return to.
@ giladg
> '... blaming the Jews, now called Zionists ...'
Man, this is getting complicated. What are you actually saying here?
> 'You try to equate the Palestinians with Black South Africans. What a joke.'
You think it's more accurate to equate Israeli with White South Africans?
@ cincykid77: '[...] because they want their own state, right?'
Well, news for you, "they" already have their own state, except that it's occupied by Israël that treats them like shit by means of a cruel apartheid policy. Capito?
@ Annie
Even if G4S does what it has now announced, they will still be transferring Palestinians to prisons in Israel (which is a war crime), they will still be securing settlements, etc.
I appreciate your opinion, but the fact that we now know they're scared and listening means we should intensify our actions to bring them to their knees. Hardball is the name of the game.
Is there reason for optimism? Sure. We're spoiling their markets and name and the tipping point is approaching. But after all these years we will only give up once they're out of I/P. So let's double our efforts on G4S and put our teeth in even deeper.
@ radii: 'they should get completely out of the contract now [...]'.
Touché. Tomorrow 100% exit, nothing else, no less.
@ Henry
I fully agree. Besides, they will only step back from certain contracts, and only once these expire in 2015. That is too little, too late. So we'll be moving forward in our protests against these criminal weasels and smoke 'm out.
@ Shmuel
You just came up with a great idea for a poster campaign in Tel Aviv: Equality in a democratic state beats Israeli ethnic privilege any day.
Allison — Are you reading this ...?
Adri Nieuwhof writes about it om EI:
link to electronicintifada.net
Poll: 23% of Jewish Israelis support apartheid, 13% support status quo
link to 972mag.com
@ Yonah: 'The theoretical person referred to by the diners was someone who was involved in the settler enterprise but not personally involved with violence.'
Living on ethnically cleansed land is a very violent thing to do. All settlers commit violence and crimes each day, even if they don't pick op the guns themselves.
BTW, Waters reacted on this piece: link to jewishpress.com
I have sent the 92Y a mail, asking Mrs. Engels to explain the cancellation. May I suggest that others do the same? link to 92y.org
Here is what Roger Waters himelf has to say: link to brain-damage.co.uk
Note this sentence: "On April 3rd, my publicist in NY received a phone call from Susan Engel, the Director of Lectures at the 92Y, cancelling my re-scheduled engagement without explanation."
Soooo many questions, but forgetting the first one: WTF are these Israeli's doing there in the first place?
Stone throwing, seven-year old kids that lift 'boulders'. And of course cycling Europeans in the Jordan Valley. Existential stuff.
Phil: "American Jews are going to nod their heads at her devastating judgments and begin to abandon the ideal of a Jewish national project. I don’t see any other outcome."
Insha'llah this will happen before 10:00 pm as otherwise it will be completely useless.
Exactly, the 'creme de la creme' is dealing with highly moving questions, such as: 'Why is democracy in Israel important to you?'
@ OlegR
Maybe in your world, not in mine. These kids have the full right to resist the occupiers by any means available to them and you should help them. The rest is silly semantics.
@ MJRosenberg
I have to ask you again to help us out: where is the vitriol and where is the anti-Semitism in Cliff's post?
"I stand by my assertion that anti-Semitism is a problem here although it appears that some think that it does not exist, that Jews invented the concept for political reasons." — MJR.
So, some here claim that 'Jews invented the concept for political reasons'. Well, I have read a lot of comments on this blog, but I have never come across this claim. It's so seventies, don't you think?
'I could, if I wanted to, find hundreds if not thousands of anti-Semitic statements here.'
Are you serious? I wonder why others didn't notice these. Is there a huge difference in appreciation of the term? Are all of us anti-Semites? Or are you extremely sensitive? I fear we can only decide once you have pointed at some examples.
Seeing the main exhibition in the Peace Museum completely knocked me over, and the thought of attacking someone has never been further away. Using the exhibition as an inspiration for bombing another people is ugly and sickening – and as far as I am concerned mentally and physically impossible.
The older, the wiser, right?
Both are a privilege, right?
Well, than you certainly should read the remaining text as it gets cozier all the time.
And you know what – next time they might invite a real Palestinian! I'm sure the Palestinians will love this kind of intimate Jewish discussions about whitewashing their fate.
One thing is very clear. By the time the participants have figured out their little complexities in life there is no more Palestine left. And that notion should have been at the core of this article.
This whole meeting is kinda hallucinating – discussing the democratic value of a state that is committing humanitarian crimes as part of its essence. And also – doesn't a democracy need a constitution to begin with, as a token for its intentions?
Against the background of a suffering people and ongoing ethnic cleansing this kind of discussions seems an arrogant waste of time to me.
Annie, I know the reality and sources perfectly well, thanks. It looks like we had parallel discussions. Anyway, the idea that came up through this guy (whose work I don't know) and our discussion is helpful, as I explained.
@ Annie: [...] 'for them it’s completely normal.' [...]
Wow – I'd love to hear ten of them explain this on camera and broadcast it on Dutch/European tv. I remember the BBC-documentary about the Ultra-Orthodox, that cost Israel a lot of support here. This idea sounds even better.
So please – let them explain how 'completely normal' this is to them – scaring their last supporters away.
'Just living your life' away in a state that is busy cleansing the original population is not a normal thing to do, Annie. It obliges every Israeli to stand up against it. Those 'just living their lives' are part of the crime. It's up to the world to make that clear.
The idea that there is something like an 'innocent population' is a comfortable myth. Every Israeli is aware of living in a state that's built on ongoing crimes and stolen land.
Members of my family (as well as others) returned to the Netherlands in the seventies and eighties for this very reason. They couldn't stand it. 'How can you, as a survivor of the Holocaust ánd as a Jew, endorse these crimes against the Palestinians?' was their simple question, for which they were branded as traitors and scum.
After 45 years of occupation it is not possible to 'just live your life' and pretend it's 'normal', while the victims of that comfortable life suffer in massive numbers just kilometres away, literally around the corner. So let the camera's roll.
@ Annie: 'i think most people know there are normal people in israel who just live their lives.'
I challenge them to say that on camera. 'Do you think it's "normal" to "just live your life" on ethnically cleansed land? – A Dutch viewer wants to know.
You probably know the answer, but what counts more is that these questions are being asked. To let them know that this is not considered "normal", even by fellow Jews. There are five million people waiting to return to their houses.
'if this filmmaker was genuinely/primarily interested in dialogue he would not be framing his question like this.'
And he would use a different journalistic approach. I'm afraid you over-value the intentions of the makers. This is snapshot journalism and subjects are always thorny to get the ball rolling.
Another point is that Bonnie's claim makes sense as a reply to the all time classic 'You hate Jews'.
So, okay, Dutch supermarkets will start labeling products from the settlements as 'Made in Palestine/OT/West Bank' or anything like it. Does this end products from the settlements being labeled as 'Made in Israel'? No. Does this forbid dealing in illegal fare? No. Will contacts with the illegal settlements be closed down? No.
That's why we are not celebrating this step. Shir Hever: "The increased focus in Europe on proper labeling of products from the settlements is an attempt by EU states to shift the discussion into a legal framework, to avoid the more controversial political issue of EU responsibilities in the region."
See link to newleftproject.org
This (great) piece bij BDS France leans heavily on the January Al-Haq report 'Feasting on the Occupation'.
Report: link to alhaq.org
Introduction: link to alhaq.org
@ Citizen
This Jewish Press article is hysterical. The Y gets slaughtered. But Waters, too. Here are some quotes from the article that reflect the hysteria. [© Lori Lowenthal Marcus]
– a rabid hater of Israel
– one of the biggest haters of Israel west of the Middle East
– someone with such a visceral hatred for Israel
– his Israel-hatred
– an Israel vilifier
– a clear cut enemy of Israel
– the enemy
– do everything within his power to destroy Israel’s efforts to protect its citizens from terrorism
– a fanatical supporter of the economic warfare movement against Israel
– engaged in an organized effort to misinform artists
– he is completely mischaracterizing Israel
How about solving 100 percent by abolishing the One Church as well?
Pabelmont – you forgot the pay-off:
Israel — A Hell of a Place.
No, you're wrong. It's because Israel has so much to hide that visitors like Mark freak them out. That's why they treat him like a criminal that 'lied' to the State of Israel about his never-used Facebook and mail-account.
Let's see it this way: if a nation starts behaving like this, it's fall is getting close. See it as a last call for some sanity.
I understand Ecru's use of 'valid' as 'factual' or 'real', and I believe that what he describes is actually taking place and/or to be expected anytime soon. I am not triggered by his use of the word – just offering Annie some alternatives.
As for Ecru's call for Jews to stand up, he's right, that's the answer, and that's exactly what's happening here at Mondoweiss.
I agree. Please refrain, Susan, as should all of us, of this kind of language.
valid response > inevitable response; result
JennieS, an inch is 2,54 cm, so wiki should have mentioned 100 inches or 254 cm. For the rest, you're absolutely right.
Exactly. A second and a third Gaza are in the making, and I believe it would be a good thing to just call it that way. Maybe by that comparison people will understand what's going on and coming up.
Rule: "Michael Walzer is a desperate man. When people this smart start making arguments this bad, you know that their worldview is failing..."
Touché. And that 'worldview' is the construct of a 'Jewish state' on someone else's land. That's what's failing. It's too bad that Walzer doesn't like papaya or green shirts, but his little nightmare is ruining the lives of millions of people. It's time that people start telling him that, and a good starting point for this message is international law. Did that come up at all in this 'dialogue about Israel's future'?
It's nice to read, the exchange of ideas among the elite. Except for a Palestinian. If your life is being demolished there's only one thing that counts: justice. Who the hell is being 'singled out' here anyway? — the Palestinians will ask. So let' put the law on the table and our intellectual quest for the Right Zionist And His Future Role In The Great Jewish Universe in the top drawer until Israel has lifted the occuptaion and deported its colonists.
The next question for Walzer is: Why don't you stick to the law instead of bullshitting us with the Han Chinese?
A variation is the question if these folks would like us to stop 'singling out' Israel. If the answer is yes they'd better start up a new 'coalition of the willing' to invade the place. I'm pretty sure Israel is hiding WMD's, and in breach with a whole list of UN resolutions.
No, no, no, Israel is in Europe. I haven't found it on the map yet, but the country is hosting the European Soccer Championships below 21 soon, and they participate in the European song contest. So, is Israel in Europe, or what?
Powerful answer from Shatz. Bravo.
Sin Nombre — "If I were the latter I’d get my West Bank and Gaza population to start wearing the yellow stars that Germany required jews to wear in Hitler’s early days. See if that wouldn’t change the perspective a bit."
Wow. Cynical, raw, but amazingly effective idea.
Seafoid —This is totally unbelievable. Complete evil has come down over the 'Jewish state'.
BTW, just read in the Dutch media that Lieberman has a little legal problem at home, ten years old, but backfyering now.
Israel's punishment of the Palestinians is shortsighted for reasons mentioned by Nadia Hijab. But what happens when the Gulf nations step in, Israel won't like either. In that situation Israël will loose it's control over the Palestinian para-military and the tax-system. In other words: it's position will be weakened further. And further.
Point taken. But nevertheless there are no American Defence Forces or Dutch Defense Forces. My point is that the name IDF is part of a well-planned vocabulary that contributes to the non-existing status of victim. It's propaganda.
From that respect I would prefer to read about 'Israeli army' instead of IDF — as this is one of the easy things we can do ourselves to counter the false image that is presented to us. We're simply not accepting it anymore.
It's all about the tide, my friend. There is nothing you can do anymore except getting wet. Soaked.
Why do you guys keep calling the Israeli army 'Israeli Defence Forces' — even when caught in an offensive act?
Huh? I thought Westerners do exactly the opposite — painting Meshaal and Hamas as the devil himself. It's Israel that has been whitewashed and excused by the West, not Meshaal.
@ yrn
As I replied above: It sounds as if the Gazans should excuse themselves for wanting to return to Haifa and Jaffa. Why should they? Most of the Gazans are refugees. It’s their own land they want to return to, right? Any objections?
"Or you all accept what Meshaal wishes……… which will make your games hard to achieve."
What is that supposed to mean? Of course I do, as the law is on his side. And 'hard to achieve'? Actually I think it's pretty easy to achieve: the Palestinians can almost see their former houses from Gaza. A small ride and they're home.
@ yrn
It sounds as if the Gazans should excuse themselves for wanting to return to Haifa and Jaffa. Why should they? Most of the Gazans are refugees. It's their own land they want to return to, right? Any objections?
Kalithea,
As for Mooser's gravitas: when even the big chuncks of granite come loose, we've got a hell of a landslide underway. I understand your criticism, but don't forget to enjoy the ride.
True, Holland has been a supporter for Israel all along, except that along the line public support soared from probably 95% fifty years ago to a minority nowadays. Dutch politics certainly do not reflect popular view in this respect — as in other cases where our government blindly followed the US (87% of the Dutch were against support for the Iraq War, that was supported nevertheless).
As for anti-muslim: Holland suffered from total paranoia and incompetent governing following 9/11 — as a Kingdom of Fear. And let's not forget that people got killed: the murder of Theo van Gogh was a huge shock for the open society Holland wants to be. Wilders profited, every unhappy person in his wake. Now he lost his governing power, and islam is hardly an issue anymore. The Labor/Liberal coalition is nuanced on islamic immigrants.
'I long for the day when it will be as embarrassing to admit that you were once a Zionist as it is now to admit that you once supported Apartheid.' — Maximus DM.
So do I. But the day is coming. Over here 'zionism' already has the same sound as Apartheid and racism in large circles, including Jewish. I think the US is the only place outside Israel where people openly call themselves 'zionist' on some scale. In Holland you'll soon be tomatoed if you try.
Avi, I agree with you. Labor has been supporting the settlement business all along, as it has been massively involved in the dehumanization of the Palestinians. Say — is Labor willing to retreat behind the Green Line? The fact that Labor, some day, will change the course of the state is another myth — or better wishful thinking. Besides, anyone in power will face the purposely crafted dilemma of how to remove 700,000+ facts on the ground.
I believe that the civil war that will follow will not so much be over the land, but ultimately about the question that has been hidden so carefully all the time: who are we? Only when that question is answered, after 65+ years, Israel will be able to live in peace, with itself and with the rest of the world.
Do these wandering rabbi's realise there's a world out there that disgusts their lack of courage? It's time to choose, people at BJ, time's up.
'So essentially, it's the entire planet on one side, versus the US, its new right-wing poodle to the north, Israel, and three tiny, bribed islands on the other side'.
link to guardian.co.uk
Talking about discussions — these will at some point be joined by an Israeli generation that just realized the price that was paid by others for their right to live on chosen lands. I'm a bit hesitant about the level of civilty, friendlyness and mutual enlightenment that this will bring along. To be honest, I'm afraid the whole project will end in misery and tribal warfare — a meltdown of an overblown concept. It seems almost predictable. In the process zionism will kill itself as an unacceptable and unliveable concept.
Maybe start with a National Home.
Tzombo, good one. But the ban for non-citizens is off the table for all big cities, and soon for the rest of the country. Anyway, I think David would even be helped with a citizen only coffeeshop system.
"I am not sure what is going to happen in two days."
Well, how about the Dutch system of Coffee Shops. As a customer you can buy softdrugs legally there, these shops pay taxes and the government can check as much as they like. Everybody happy. You can also have it delivered if you prefer. Or grow your own in your garden – a very popular thing to do here. So, once legal, there are many ways to go.
Quite amazing, by the way, that softdrugs are still banned in the land of the free. Why exactly is this?
Exactly. I am always amazed to find so many reasonable people after all these decades of violence that was put upon them. A professional journalist should notice this fact and write about it. Because it's a miracle.
We know who Rudoren is, right? The lady who wrote up a flattering portrait of a settler leader – a well-known war criminal – as a sophisticated man of the world. She even accepted money to do so. So what else is there to know about her?
Mooser: "Does anybody know where this comes from?"
I think the crux is when you mistakingly described Jewish domination as a 'desireable goal'. It's been the reality for a long time, so why not discuss this when the heat is on?
This happens when you tell people for decades that they are chosen – spoil them, give them land, weapons, money and blind support, kill their enemies and even corrupt the world's institutions for them. Now they believe it. Ask Phil.
Kathleen: "What makes you think it has ever been any different?"
That's exactly what I have often asked myself, seeing Phil manoeuvre. It is 35 years ago that I first spoke to Jews who left Israel to return to the Netherlands. For them, already then, the hatred and racism were unbearable. They rather reurned to the soil that devastated their lives, than being complicit to crimes themselves.
Literally everything about Israel is a myth, Phil. We've just refused to accept it.
Please help circulate AVAAZ's call to support the upgrade of Palestinian rights at the UN. Approaching 1.4 million signatures.
link to avaaz.org
'... it’s wrong to call the victims of Israel’s attack “martyrs”.'
As wrong as calling the perpetrators 'Israeli Defence Force'?
From the Netherlands: Bravo!
Of course he did, I realize that. Why should he use the language of the original population – the people he is publicly spitting on, and that were washed away from history in his neat Ashkelon? That was what I was pointing at. Sorry for being unclear.
'What an arrogant individual.'
Most war criminals are pretty arrogant – they walk in and out of your and my country undisturbed instead of being arrested.
I think I recognize this guy. Last time he was on tv, he had a bomb — great acting that was. This time I'm a bit disappointed. No bomb, and part of his presentation in Arabic, which I find a very difficult language to understand. At least I understand why no one showed up in that theatre.
Alex — as for your last paragraph I don't get one thing. As the lady in question is actively involved in committing a war crime (naming it an 'interesting opportunity'), which the occupation and settlement industry clearly is, why should a 'generally excellent publication' write about her in the first place? What happens here is a miserable act of deliberate whitewashing, and there is no reason to reserve one positive word for the people involved in this.
Thanks, Elliot, for your adequate answer.
@ Dimadok: I always feel bad visiting ethnical cleansed territory. How about you?
@ Kraus,
No more Bibi-ing, PLEASE. Check out your last line, about the lipstick.
@ Zrow
First line of Phil's text: "... the liberal Zionist rabbi who defended the Gaza slaughter ..."
So that's what liberal Zionists do, right? Shall we please get rid of this misleading adjective?
This is the plan. This is how these things work. Exactly.
@ Sam Bahour. Thank you for this article.
@ Adam:
'Maybe we'll get to see on Monday if any daylight exists.'
Daylight? What should that look like? Obama needs to come up with at least the bottom line of his Cairo-speech — to begin with. Man, did this guy mess up.
Here is a press release by Gush Shalom:
link to zope.gush-shalom.org
Note the 'attempt to illegally enter Israel'.
This is a great graphic that would fit nicely in all those subway and train stations and would work well as a full page ad in NYT and WaPo.
Sean,
How about BDS? If the basic principles of humanity have not reached them after sixty years of explanation lets make it clear that BDS is what follows. Over the last months we managed to kick Veolia out of two major Dutch cities – The Hague and, just last week, Utrecht. These fights are great platforms for spreading the BDS-word, empowering the call from the Palestinians themselves. Surely we have a long way to go, but we book successes that open people's eyes, give strength to the movement, and hurt the criminal businesses.
@ pipistro
'All this is inconceivable in the era of the internet.'
Amazing, right? And how come there was just a handful of protesters? Where was the rest?
Touché, Eva.
@ N49
I agree completely. This should have been over and done with.
@ Chrisjj
I fully agree.
It's a shame the earlier thread was broken off, as there was valuable stuff being discussed.
It seems to me that an important point in the debate was Annie's claim that 'Berlin's actions offended practically every Jewish person in this movement'. Well, it didn't. It's the opponent's language being used here. What offended me is that Berlin was not believed and that she received zero credit from her allies.
@ Sean
'Many sophisticated Internet users park all kinds of controversial links with which they don’t agree at Delicious, Diigo, Instapaper, Pocket, private discussion groups, etc. WITHOUT READING OR VIEWING THEM FIRST.'
Good that you bring this up as this is precisely what seems to have happened. And yes, that's exactly how we work ourselves.
Maybe it's a suggestion to just leave the Arab Spring alone, pack up and go home.
@ PZ777
You're a demanding lot. There's a collegue of yours on this very page who is demanding proof for the fact that the Exodus did not happen, so why don't you prove Israel did not create Hamas? Afterwards we ask Phil to prove you made your donation.
Talking of such – actually I believe that you've been pampered and taken care of for a lot more than a lousy eighteen bucks, right? I mean, Mooser's attention alone ... So how about pumping it up a bit?
I have great respect for Henry Clifford.
Because they're a bunch of cowards, buddy. They don't dare provoke others without their armed companions. By the way, what would happen if a large group of orthodox Muslims peacefully enters the Wailing Wall area, just to sniff up the atmosphere? No props, I assume?
No Seafoid, the Temple Mount is in the Himalayas, where all the flipped Israeli soldiers hang out.
What has changed since the Iraq War when the main US media, including the Washington Post, helped set the stage for the attack? Have they washed the blood off their hands? Is their reporting balanced today? Do they place Op'eds critical of the warmongers? Have they reacted within 24 hours, apologizing for their incredible blunder to give editorial space to A&P (without even mentioning their status!), warning their readers for what they have done? No. No. No. So what has changed since the Iraq War? Can we trust WaPo today? No, we can't.
Mikahel: "20% of Israel’s citizens are Arab, but not “Palestinian,” ... referring to themselves as such."
Even though I've heard this a thousand times over, it's still unbearable.
Mikahel: "I doubt that they would have partaken of any food prepared by non-Jews, though."
Verry telling — living somewhere for hundreds of years without sharing the food of your neighbours. And now we know what that leads to.
You are wrong, Hophmi. A lot of people care. And for good reasons.
Surely there will always be people who are willing to live on top of an ethnical cleansed village, welcoming tourists and at the same time denying the original inhabitants the return to their villages. And hey – surprisingly these folks 'feel differently' than I do. We certainly agree on that one.
Tel Aviv is the fitting capital for what Hannah Arendt described as Israel's choice to become a Warrior State. Read her work, I suggest.
@ pinewoodslim
"I found some good information on camping and eats for Newfoundland and Labrador last spring using it."
Wow, in the Israel Survival Kit? That's pretty amazing. Is that the Eretz Israel edition you're using?
@ dimadok
Tel Aviv is the failed capital (oops) of a failed 'Jewish state' (oops). And a terrible place, by the way.
Herzl was warned about the presence of a 'native population'. The 'drive them into the sea'-notion comes from him.
@ giladg.
Ever heard of Shlomo Sand?
I think I read earlier today that the Onion piece got picked up by Iranian media before noticing it to be satire.
My caption:
'Dad, what is that scary man going to do?'
@ yrn.
I think it's clear what I mean. Israel has a choice: either create one state with full rights for everyone and return of all refugees, either leave the occupied territories so the Palestinians can have their own state on 22 percent of the original land. Other options have become irrelevant as negotiations and the peace process [sic] have become irrelevant. The 'Olmert offer' is not worth any discussion — it wouldn't even have passed the Knesset. But hey — isn't that Israel's strategy: keep on discussing as long as nothing changes the ongoing etnic cleansing and colonisation. That's where Mondonut and his buddies come in.
So what exactly is your point, Mondonut? You think Abbas is a liar? Good for you, man. And now get the hell out of the occupied territories, will you?