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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
What a tragedy. We lose entirely too many young people to suicide... holding them all in the light.
Phil, you acted like an ass, and got called on it.
Why make it more than that? Accept your smack-down like a dude and keep your mother out of it!
(FWIW, people talk about stuff they nothing about all the time. That's why blogs -- and comments sections -- are so popular.... and do you really think golf is a sport? I'm with your SIL on this one!)
.... but.... but.... don't Arabs in Israel "have it better" than anywehere in the Arab world??!!
I hear two conversations going on: one is for Palestine and its supporters: "how can we achieve the liberation of Palestine from Israeli tyranny?"
I hear Matthew and Witty and others asking: "How can Palestinians use non-violence to liberate themselves, bring peace to the region, and heal their broken Israeli neighbors?"
Frankly, I think that is way too much to ask of the people of Palestine.
I loved this piece by Ira Chernus, which lays out the hypocrisy of the Western call for Palestinian non-violence:
link to gazafreedommarch.org
Beautiful, Max!
Palestinians should us non-violent tactics if they choose and if those tactics proove are effective. Nonviolence is not the goal; liberation is!
I can't help but ask: How much of this push for non-violence in all situations is tied to the fact that European Jews by-and-large did not raise up their arms in self-defense against the Nazi effort to destroy them.
Are we in fact demanding that Palestinians follow in these steps?
Let's be clear: IT'S INSANE TO STAND THERE AND LET SOMEONE BEAT YOU ON THE HEAD!
Just saw this commercial on TV during a Phillies game! I immediately called the phone number provided for Sestak's office to thank him for his efforts to be even-handed, and to put American interests first.
... as opposed to those logical, ballsy individuals are working for change by commenting on a blog?
What a disappointing reaction from this crowd.
Here's a group of largely white, middle class/UMC American relgious leaders who spent a lot of time preparing, studying, learning and debating this important issue.
PCUSA is a huge, democratic institution. This isn't people around the table having dinner, or a couple of cyber typists. IT'S A HUGE INSTITUTION that has moved a long way on this issue, and will likely move further before the next General Assembly. (They've also begun a Christian-Muslim dialog push so that hopefully down the road, maintaining relations with Muslims will be as important to them as their Jewish relationships.)
Bottom line is that PCUSA congregations will be speaking about these justice issues for years to come, and they'll study it from a progressive persepctive. THere is the potential to impact millions of Presyberterian faithful.
If every large institution in this country were engaged in this ongoing work, we'd see peace within a decade!
I can be as snide and snarky as the rest of you, but I respectfully request that you take a moment and give the Presbyterians their due!
Totally hilarious and sadly, very true.
The best thing about Kristoff's trip? This from his facebook page:
link to facebook.com
"Somebody asked my 16-yr-old son what he had enjoyed most about Israel so far. Old City of Jerusalem? Dead Sea? Masada? No, he said, the best part had been being tear gassed with me while covering a demonstration in the West Bank town of Bil'in on Friday. I guess a family that is tear gassed together stays together."
Perhaps there will be hope in the next generation!
I swam with my brown family in Tel Aviv 13 years ago, WJ. It's not like it's never been done.
Just be honest: You prefer 2-states, but in absence of that, your choice is one apartheid state in which Israeli Jews have superior rights.
It's OK to just say it, WJ.
Let's be clear. There already IS one state. What you oppose is one state with equal rights for all.
WJ i thanked you for your candor. I'm not suggesting there is anything vicarious about you. I find it's diaspora Zionists who have a hard-on for the IDF.
I threw my lot in with the Palestinian side not because I want to be a nail, but because i would rather be on the side of justice...
Let's speak plainly here.
So... do you guys honestly expect an Israeli Jew to list "massacre of Palestinians" as his biggest worry? Seriously?
The maddening thing about this conflict isn't that Israelis unjustly exercise their superior power over Palestine or that many of them don't give a fig about the people of Palestine, or that most of them don't seem overly concerned about losing their "souls."
I personally appreciate WJ's candor. He is worried about his people's survival. His people have done such horrific things to the indigenous people of Palestine, I think he's right to be worried about the consequences of decades of abuse.
I "get" this. I also get the Palestinian response, which runs of the gamut of violence against civilians to nonviolent protest. I get all of that and think most American should be able to get it. How many civilians around the world died as a result of 2 buildings being knocked down? We fight back. We get it.
I can handle an Israeli who is open about his or her priorities. What drives me crazy are the pseudo-liberal,-vegetarian-yoga- practicing, Volvo-driving Zionists who pretend to be some kind of pacifist, and don't have the balls to come out and say it: we're on the side of the Jews and it's a fight till the end (and we get a vicarious thrill out of being associated with ass-kickers).
It IS a fight to the end. Palestinians will never give up their right to resist however they deem fit. They will never give up their right to return. They will never participate like sheep in their own destruction. That's the side I'm on.
Can we all be honest about what this conflict really is and where we stand? Pretending that Israeli Jews aren't involved in violent oppression, and that Palestinians are immoral or uncivilized for refusing to cooperate with Israel's nefarious plans gets us nowhere.
Hopefully those who aren't on ANY side can help negotiate something that the aligned people can live with. Otherwise it's demographic fight and we'll have to see who's the last man standing.
You should get out more Witty. You might learn something if you actually made the effort to meet a few real live Arabs or Palestinians.
Don't bother feeling guilty, Phil. While you guys were busy feeling superior, working class Christians were looking down on you for being weak, cheap and cowardly.
There's plenty of racism to go around!
Witty's blog post on his own racism was really enlightening. It's clear he views "racism" through a very narrow lens -- namely, how he ( or his parents.. individuals, in any case) feel about other individuals. Now I understand why he's constantly calling for individual contact.
Israeli racism against Palestinians, in the form of the occupation, apartheid structures in the WB and the siege of Gaza aren't in place because Jews in Israel don't know enough Palestinians personally. The solution isn't to become vegetarians and smoke pot together, Richard.
Structures must be changed. The feelings of individuals Jews in Israel doesn't mean squat in this conflict--those feelings are far too easily manipulated.
Next time my husband is in MA for business Richard should meet him. Maybe meeting a real live Gazan in the flesh--one who has thrown stones and has scars from IOF bullets -- might be just the ticket for Richard, who seems to personalize this conflict in the oddest of ways.
Interesting though that Zionist leaders in the 40s and 50s, as well as Zionist leaders today, don't want to "go there."
They seem to prefer reparations in the form of support for the Zionist enterprise, rather than real repentance and a changing of anti-semitic ways.
Case in point: rather than welcoming real discussion about Christian anti-semitism, Israeli leaders prefer to buddy up with Christian Zionists who are anti-semitic.
A genuine reckoning about anti-semitism is the LAST THING Zionists want!
Kudos to PC(USA) for funding this work.
One overture on the slate at the General Assembly is a statement of "Recognition that Israel’s Laws, Policies, and Practices Constitute Apartheid Against the Palestinian People," which maintains that documented human rights abuses occurring in the occupied Palestinian Territories meet the 1973 United Nations definition of the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid. Using the eleven standards of the Convention, the overture cites Israeli, Palestinian and international human rights organizations in making this assessment.
Three cheers for mainline religions calling Israel's system apartheid!
(for more see this press release: link to israelpalestinemissionnetwork.org
)
What sport did/do you play, Citizen?
I will confess that watching the center on my HS football get paralyzed on the first play on opening day in 9th grade put a downer on football for me.
To answer Phil's question:
Plenty of American youths play soccer, but to date, this has not resulted in a popular, widely followed professional league that has captured the imagination of American sports consumers.
Who knows if this will change? The new-to-our-city Philadelphia Union game at 5:00 today is sold out (30,000 seats) and will be televised. Maybe the winds of change are blowing!
OTOH, I listen to sports talk radio when I'm in the car. There was recently much discussion about why soccer isn't more popular among the crowd that watches the big 4 (football, baseball, basketball, hockey). The reason most commonly cited is the lack of strategy involved... the lack of plays, of battling strategy as employed in say football and baseball...
But basketball is not the national game in the US. Not even close!
It's not either/or! My son plays soccer AND the sax!
Interesting questions, all!
In defense of American sports fans, who aren't crazy about soccer, I don't think there is anything nefarious about that. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey -- these are all terrific spectator sports. I am an avid football and baseball fan because I love the sports.
Soccer is also a terrific sport, but it certainly has an ugly, hideously racist underbelly in Europe. Mock American sports spectators as you wish, but at least we don't chant "monkey" when black players take the field!
Real Sports on HBO current episode has revisited their 2005 report:
link to nocache.hbo.com
I'm a soccer mom with a 10 year old boy soccer player. In our small town, far more boys play soccer than football, and not because they are overweight! In fact, fat boys who lack athletic ability are far more likely to play football! One of the coaches tried recruiting our son, and I told him that our kid had probably never thrown a football. He said it didn't matter, because 90% of the players on the field never even touch it anyway.
We'll see what happens with soccer in this country when all the kids who played as kids grow up. Philly just premiered its own MLS team in a new stadium. Tickets are hard to come by! ... and we're supposedly the worst sports fans in the country. Go figure!
Tell me, Sumud, can you speak as a "human" and not as a "Palestinian?" Is there any part of being Palestinian that doesn't color your human reaction? Wouldn't it be an insult at the deepest level if a Zionist Jew were to ask you to do so?
Women can't engage in a conversation about sexism as non-gendered beings any more than Palestinians can engage in conversations about Zionism as though they are not its victims. The fact that you suggested it is incredibly odd and patently absurd.
In my opinion, neither you nor Walid were condescended to; you were begged to listen and to hear! I think that both of you were so defensive that neither of you could recognize what was being said.
I actually think the discussion is a mirror of the discussion between Zionists and those who support Palestinians. I experienced the same frustration in speaking with you and Walid that I experience when I read Witty.
In plain English: I am a white American. When I work with, for example, African-Americans on issues of racism, I come to that work open, willing to listen, and willing to be corrected. I have learned by experience, that what *I* consider inclusive, isn't necessarily so. I've been painfully corrected on these issues myself, and have learned a lot from that. When I work with Arabs or Palestinians or Muslims on issues of justice for those groups, I come to that work open, willing to listen, and willing to have my own assumptions/notions/ideas challenged and corrected.
Bottom line: Walid disagreed with Seham's first post in a way that was offensive and belittling. His subsequent conversation went downhill from there, in spite of his apology. He embodied sexist treatment of women. I'm not sure why you are defending that.
I share your very deep disappointment in the way this conversation has gone. I would suggest that men who support women in the quest for equality adopt openness, a willingness to examine your language, and a desire to learn when it comes to conversations with women about sexism.... And with that, I truly am done with this one!
What is that supposed to mean, Sumud?
oh crap. my first venture into HTML code was a flop. Sorry all the bold face type.
Sumud:
Seham and Walid don't really disagree about the existence of sexism in the Arab world. They disagree about whether or not Walid participated in that behavior in this thread.
Judy ~ you criticised Walid for making snarky comments (Seham’s “real life”), but didn’t criticise Seham for her equally snarky comments (objectified women, showered w/ presents), that actually came first. What’s that about? It’s the reason I am asking if a different standard is being applied as to what men and woman can say. (Quoting Sumud from above)
Walid began by grossly generalizing arab women as being showered with gifts and being seen and not heard. Seham responded by saying... "if that's your experience... fine, but don't generalize it." No foul there whatsover.
Look Sumud, I just now read Walid's comment above what I posted this a.m.:
I don’t dare make it any more complimentary or flowery for fear of getting something thrown back at me for beind condescending or something. I don’t even dare using the “G” word anymore and I’m calling all of you females from now on. (Quoting Walid from above)
Maybe he thinks this is cute, but personally it shows a continued lack of respect and belittling of our position, as did his extensive latin apology yesterday. I let it slide yesterday, even though I found that sarcasm offensive. Instead I responded with a light reply hoping to end this. You responded that it was a great peace process (though it didn't feel that way to me). Walid anointed you the great peacemaker, but continued to spew gibberish about the use of "girl." He was and is clearly uncomfortable with being corrected about this.
Now today Walid has pronounced that he chosen to refer to us as "females" even though both Seham and I clearly expressed a preference to be called women? Do you think that is *funny*? If you don't see the passive agressive nastiness in this post, you need your eyes checked.
Someone who has been called out (rightfully) on being disrespectful doesn't continue the disrespect if they really "get it." It's arrogant.
Can you imagine an African-American asking not to be called "negro" but instead "African-American" and Walid responding, "No. I'll call you colored?" It's unthinkable.
See it or don't. If Walid is serious about respecting women, he'd leave the nasty sarcasm out of the discussion and show a little humility. He has apologized but his subsequent arrogant "gibberish" and stubborn inability to let it go are what stick with me.
We all come to this forum as women, men, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Americans, Palestinians and other Arab nationalities. We can all learn about the experience of others but that does require some openness and humility.
I can't speak for Seham, but I'm about done with this conversation. Have a nice day.
It's crystal clear to me, Seham!
Hi Walid. I actually have 2 daughters and a son, but our son is the youngest, and he wasn't born yet when we lived in the WB. Needless to say, there were no sheep slaughtered in his honor. My husband hasn't been home in a decade. I do recognize that my son is the only grandson in the family and I do hope my father-in-law gets to see him before he dies!
The traditions you describe are deeply entrenched. Most societies worldwide value sons over daughters, evidenced by selective abortion rates in countries like India and China. However, it's not as though those customs must be abolished in order to address he most pressing issues such as domestic violence and legal inequality.
Again, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but do find the structure of this conversaton intersting.
Couple of comments:
Sumud: First, it was Walid who came out swinging in the "Arab girls who are spoiled post." Seham followed up with "idiot" comment. Yada Yada. I don't equate the two at all in terms of the power to derail a conversation. If you (two guys) do, then I guess it's another example of men and women responding differently to language.
Seham isn't saying she can say whatever she wants because she's a woman. She's saying that when Walid discounts her experience as an Arab feminist because she either 1) is spoiled and never dealt with sexism; 2) she was allowed no expression at home and thus shows her power in public inappropriately (read: she's a bitch); or 3) she's not there and he is....what he's trying to say, in the way that men have historically said to women, and in the way that white people have historically said to brown people, and "first worlders" have said to "third worlders": hush up. I'm a (fill in the blank). I know better than you.
Pamela and Seham nailed it in their posts above. Walid, I never understood your objection to Seham in the first place and thought your read of her first post was off-base. In the subsequent discussion you displayed some of the same attitude that you were in fact decrying. I hope you can look back and see it, but because this conversation is ongoing, I fear that neither you nor Sumud really *can* see it.
I think both of you have missed Seham's basic point: Sexism in the dynamic of occupation in Palestine is best dealt with by the women and society involved. Seham is not denying sexism in the slightest. She's point out that the "West" uses faux concern for Arab women as another weapon with which to beat the Arab world.
We all agree there is sexism. We all agree that the situation of women must improve, in Palestine and around the world. Perhaps we disagree on how that can most effectively be achieved in Palestine while under colonial occupation, with daily interference from the West.
***One side tangent: My husband of 21 years is Gazan. I've lived in the WB for a couple of years in the mid 90s and for a short stint in Gaza (albeit 20 years ago). I've always found that a woman's experience of sexism there was directly related to her own family and where she lived (town vs. village). I knew lots of girls (I taught school) and women socially who were loved and valued, who were educated at great expense, etc. Not all families -- most that I knew, in fact, treated their kids "like shit."
And for what it's worth, I was frequently referred to as "Um Leila!"
Walid, I hope you can hear what Seham is saying... i write this as one who has truly respected all you've shared here prior to this conversation!
No need to beat this horse to death -- but next time be more respectful and don't assume all kinds of things about people's personal situations.
You were sexist, dismissive and condescending.... blind to your sexism (You firmly believe in women!) in exactly the same way that Witty is unable to see his racism (he wants peace!).
Cross-posted with you, Seham. Well said.
The stand *I* took was really more about your attitude when your misstep was pointed out. You made several extremely snarky statements about what Seham's life and upbringing "must" be like ... suggesting that she's either spoiled or shut down (and therefore trying to show her big balls on this forum) ... so therefore YOU are really in a better position to opine about the situation of women in the Arab world.
Your inability to let this die a natural death is interesting.... your bringing up girls as virgins, as old maids and as (ever-so-silly) bra-burners suggests that you truly don't get it.
Adult females are women. Standards of adulthood may vary from culture to culture. One way in which patriarchal systems have dominated women throughout history (and across cultures) is by infantilizing women. Referring to adult women as "girls" diminishes our adult capacity.
You're starting to sound like the feminist equivalent of Witty.
Gee, Walid, you had me at "omnipotenti!"
Walid, your use of "girl" can be attributed to a mistake, but your attitude thereafter has been utterly sexist. I have admired everything you've ever written on these boards, with the exception of your posts today. No need to invoke Witty (or to be as dim as he is!)
Being able to name yourself is a basic right. For a grown woman to want to be called such is not silly; just as it's not silly for a grown man not to want to be called "boy" or an Arab born in Ramallah to want to be called "Palestinian." That's why we say "African American" instead of "negro."
Language has power!
Walid, would you be "silly" if you objected to a solider at a checkpoint calling you "boy?"
Language has power. It's absurd not to recognize that. When you characterized Seham as an "Arab girl" the result was to minimize her objection to the conversation.
I hope you can look at your interchange honestly and see how utterly sexist and condescending it was. Your reply didn't "smack" of sexism. It reeked. You said in a nutshell: "I already explained this, little girl. I am an authority, and you are a twit for not recognizing that."
Your post above is epitome of patriarchal sexism.
Just as Palestinians doesn't need well-meaning Western do-gooders to come in an tell them how to run their resistance, Palestinian women don't need Westerners, or Arab or Muslim men to tell them what to do!
unverified: Please describe the horrible sexism -- ways in which women are "systemtically harrassed adn treated like shit" -- in Palestine?
Every culture is sexist to one degree or another.
In the US women make less money than men, for equal work and are way more likely to live in poverty...nearly 1 in 4 American women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime...nearly 1 in 4 girls will be sexually abused by the time she's 18.... The legal system provides scant protection for women who live in danger of violent men...Pressure on girls as young as 9 or 10 to conform to standards of "sexiness" is insane... women are outrageously underrepresented in the political realm, even though more women then men graduate from college!
American men who are concerned about women's rights have plenty of work to do right here at home.
The real question is: how can people who are concerned about human rights and women's rights be in effective solidarity with others around the world who are working on the same issues?
Seham was hardly defending the status quo, but rather saying that occupation only makes it worse. Do you deny the pressures of WB apartheid and the Gaza siege don't make it even more difficult to address fundamental sexism as practiced in the culture?
And Walid, I can't speak for Arabic women, but most of us who are over the age of 18 regard being referred to as "girls" as highly sexist.
Well said, Seham!
That was just a great sporting event today!!
And it IS nice to see the US as the underdog for a change.
Or to look at it another way, the US supports secular puppets for so long, that the only groups with the cajones to protest are the religious fundamentalists (thinking Egypt here). Thus the choice comes down to "women's rights approving" puppets or "women's rights denying" fundies. That dynamic is certainly the result of US meddling!
Or on the case of Palestine, deported or imprisoned (if not executed).
I'm actually surprised Mustapha Barghouti hasn't been jailed.
You make the most salient point of the discussion!
I am with you, Annie.
I also happen to think there is no greater scum on this earth than collaborators. It's hard to insist on the rule of law in this circumstance, unfortunately.
Well said Laura. Non violence should be employed as it is effective.
If Israeli Jews and their diaspora support system don't think Palestinians are fully human, then shame on them. Exactly how does one human being go about proving his or her humanity to another?
Is there ANY principle (security for Israeli Jews, making Israeli Jews and their diaspora supporters feel "safe," and in this piece, the principle of non-violence, etc) that Zionist supporters don't place above the basic rights of Palestinians?
In my mind it's akin to poor white conservatives -- supporting a worldview that's against your own interests!
Sad, but depressingly true.
What percentage of diaspora refugees have ever been to Palestine, but they still love it?
In no way am I "Palestine bashing" here. But it's incumbent on West Bankers to remember brothers and sisters in Gaza!
My husband is Gazan. The willingness of West Bankers to accept Isarel's separation has been really mystifying. I had hoped that the massacres in Gaza during OCL, was the beginning of a new unity, but that truly wasn't the case. I have a hard time understanding the lack of solidarity.
And on another note, there are plenty of refugees in the WB and especially Gaza!
If Israelis were willing to do their own scut work, they wouldn't have to import any foreign workers.
I encourage everyone to make your PsOV known to NPR!
link to help.npr.org
Jews in WWII were not exactly the poster children for "resistance."
Personally, I think that's a key reason why *every* form of Palestinian resistance, including nonviolent protests at the wall, and flotillas on the sea, are to be crushed at all costs... they are too painful a reminder!
I don't get Maher at all. He's the ultimate in super-PEP!
(So many typos above.... I sure wish this site had an edit button!)
Only Bill Maher treats Hitchens with any reverence these days; but the again, Bill Maher matches Hitchens intense hatred of Islam in a way that borders maniacal.
(Speak of Maher, it was great to see Andrew Sullivan SHUT HIM DOWN this past week on Maher's show! link to youtube.com
Hitchens went off the deep end after 9/11.
For all Sullivan's weaknesses, he was worth his weight in gold when Maher got starry-eyed talking about how at least Israel fights "quick wars."
Sullivan's reply "QUICK? Israel has been occupying the West bank and Gaza for 40+ years" forced Maher to abandon the subject.
I'm sure these goons are the same ones who moan about Palestinians passing out sweets following an attack on an Israeli target.
It's painful to imagine a Palestinian not standing up proudly as such. I'm glad that Mahmoud has woken up!
Do you think Israel has the right to the undisturbed pursuit of life, liberty and happiness while it has its collective boot on the necks of nearly 4 million Palestinians?
It's not an either/or between forcing Jews back to Poland and Germany or a continuation of the status quo. Israel could also choose to provide rights to all those who live under its dominion, instead of reserving full rights for Jews only.
Thomas was the one reporter who would ask the White House the legitimate hard questions. What kind of access will she have now?
Helen Thomas did no one any favors with that comment. I wish she had kept her mouth shut.
Just to clarify, I am not advocating terrorism as resistance, but rather nonviolent resistance expressed by the Flotilla, BDS, etc.
Thanks. I will go check it out!
Nomo... I share your amazement that people can hold their star of david flags and CELEBRATE the events of the last week. The pro-Israeli supporters I encountered were proud, and seemed to take delight in the ability to bully others. I find those IDF-wannabees pathetic.
Resistance
Is justified
When people
are occupied.
That was a chant I heard for the first time today and I think it's quite true.
I think that there needs to be a wider discussion about what is and is not acceptable. On one hand, the pro-Israeli crowd delights in the IDF ability to kick ass. Perhaps there is inherited shame at the passivity with which European Jews responded to the Nazi effort to exterminate them. I can understand this. But those same cheerleaders for Israel are also the first to decry Palestinian resistance. Is the contrast in responses too painful?
Here is the Presbyterian Church statement. It's pretty good actually.
The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) has a long history of ministry and presence with the people of the Middle East and has long advocated for a just and secure peace for Israelis and Palestinians. Because of this, we express our deep concern about the events that occurred on May 31, 2010 — the Israeli interception in international waters of a convoy of humanitarian-aid ships seeking to bring supplies to a population of 1.5 million people in Gaza.
A severe blockade of Gaza by Israel in response to the free election of Hamas representatives in 2006 and the military incursions of Operation Cast Lead in late 2008 and early 2009 have dramatically increased the already acute humanitarian need. We grieve the killing and injuring of participants in the humanitarian effort, as well as the injuring of members of the Israeli military forces that occurred when the Israeli forces stormed one of the ships and those on board resisted.
Our tradition, although not strictly pacifist, honors peaceful resistance, including nonviolent disobedience to unjust government policies and actions. We recognize that such initiatives as the flotillas to bring aid to the people of Gaza can be powerful instruments of such resistance. These actions sometimes incite violent responses, as in this case. The long-term success of this kind of resistance requires a nonviolent response on the part of the demonstrators, even when they are under attack.
We affirm the call of the United Nations Security Council for a prompt, impartial, credible, and transparent investigation of the May 31, 2010, events, in conformity with international standards. We ask President Obama and the United States Congress to support and ensure the fulfillment of this call.
We call for an end to the blockade of Gaza and urge the government of Israel to permit the immediate delivery of humanitarian assistance to the people of Gaza....
link to pres-outlook.org
Expect more ships!
(This was a sign at the Philly protest on Tuesday and I think it sums up the steadfastness and morality of this movement to end the siege!)
Glad I read the comments, as I began to read the piece and then thought... 1.5 million Gazans are in a giant concentration camp... who gives a crap if "liberal Zionism" will survive... WILL GAZAN PEOPLE??
In reading the comments I see I didn't read far enough.
Bravo Daniel Luban!
TV infotainers like Matthews are more dangerous than politicians. They aren't accountable to anyone, think they know everything and one can't even lobby them!
Are you out of your mind? "Addicted to killing?" What kind of human being are you? This bullshit is no different than the dehumanization tactics Nazis used to justify their killing of Jews in WWII.
You should be ashamed of yourself.
Apparently, Knesset resembled a steel cage match today.
link to richardsilverstein.com
Look like Zo'abi almost got clocked!
I hope those of you on facebook will join me in reporting that page!
I think Phil's point is that when you align yourself with Palestinians -- espeically in person when the IDF is around -- you experience the same "upside down" reality and chaos that Palestinians are subject to every day.
To make matters worse, when you express your solidarity in action, your own (U.S.) gov't will treat you as though you are a Palestinian--without inherent rights, value or consequence.
Pamela, the media did the same thing in Philly.
The ABC affiliate portrayed this demonstration as a conflict between forces. There were originally FOUR pro-Israeli hecklers, who were joined by another four during the march. They followed us down the street like pathetic hangers-on, and were occasionally put in their place with chants of "Shame! Shame! Shame!"
link to abclocal.go.com
(BTW, those are my kids in the thumbnail photo!)
Great protest in Philly today! ... up the main street (Market) through City Hall, down Broad Street to the offices of the negligent Philly Inquirer. Couple of TV stations present.
Gothamist also has a report on this, along with a link to Emily's own blog.
link to gothamist.com
Wow, David. You would have made an excellent Nazi.
The good news is that the vast majority of reader comments are pro-Palestinian.
I fully expect to see claims that the Flotilla carried WMD!
The "greenhouse" talking point has the effect of creating the perception in the uninformed that Palestinians can't grow their own food, and that generous Israel left them the ability to farm for themselves but that spiteful Palestinians spurned Israel's helping hand.
Gazans have been farming successfully for centuries, thank you very much.
Julian should know better than to trot that bullshit out here.
Has the PA made any statement about the Flotilla?
My husband said that while it made headlines in most of the Arabic press, there was nothing written about it in Al-Quds, the Fatah daily...
Look at the responses on the Facebook group mentioned!
I'd say the kids are all right!
I live in a Philly media market. I think the Dems who voted for Sestak don't give a rat's ass about Israel or Palestine. Sestak's campaign successfully painted Specter as a cynical politician, all about keeping his job.
Misspeaking at a Democratic gathering and ddressing the group as "republicans" sure didn't help Specter.
Jonah, are you actually suggesting that the "holdup" is a lack of Palestinian enthusiasm for welcoming the self-same settlers whose presence has been responsible for much of their suffering for the past 40 years?
Exactly what hoops should Palestinians be required to jump through in order to prove their love for the settlers?
Just so I have this straight: Before any negotiations can begin, or be realized, Palestinian victims of settler-based hate, violence and theft, must welcome those settlers into their midst in such a way that citizen of Israel can be certain the settlers will be loved?
This kinds of garbage bespeaks the basest kind of racism.
Witty, your cognitive dissonance is amazing.
Friendship? Integration? Sorry, but when Gazans approach the barbed wire fence to shake hands with the hordes of Israelis who are coming for tea, they get shot.
BDS isn't designed to isolate individuals Jews. It's an attempt to isolate an unjust and uncivilized SYSTEM. Palestinians with Jewish friends won't be required to sever ties... but the nation of Israel, in isolation, can no longer continue with the pretense of democratic civilization.
I am beginning to suspect your irrational fear of BDS stems from some kind of personal Middle School incident.
I forget the actual response, but I can't say that he's changed his views in the past 20 years since he was a teenager! No one in my family takes much crap, though.
Absolutely. I had my 17-year-old fundamentalist nephew tell my husband to his face that "the Jews" have a right to that land because the Bible says so.
I think that mainline Protestant denominations take a progressive position on the I/P issue. Typically, those denominations who support Zionism aren't usually too interested in dialogue, or in having their views challenged or widened. Unfortunate, but true.
Palestinian Christians are utterly invisible to Christian Zionists.
If that were a Palestinian woman and kid beating up on a Jewish Israeli woman, this photo would be on the front page of the NYT and there would be universal outcry.
Utterly disgusting.
"Yeshiva boys." A new euphemism?
Well said.
And it's a racism that is so deeply buried, that those who espouse it don't even recognize it.
It's the same racism that finds the status quo (with a kill ratio of ???:1) preferable to forcing change.... It's the racism that thinks its preferable for a few thousand Palestintians to die than singling out Israel for criticism.
Wow. When I saw the photo, I thought it was Hitchens after a night on the town.
Witty, does your little list include Gaza too?
Oh, that's right, Gazans are locked up in the 21st Century Warsaw Ghetto. But if Gazas are especially good, maybe PASTA can be allowed in next year!! Who can complain when they have a nice plate of ziti?
Amira certainly describes how the occupation has its own evil, banal momentum... a force which requires an opposing force the likes of international BDS to halt.
Do liberal Zionists really imagine that Palestinian "good behavior" or some moderates from "both sides" holding hands can stop this juggernaut?
Witty -- are you on the record with your support of Campus Media Watch?
And now MY in-laws live in Warsaw ghetto-like conditions in Gaza, so that Witty and his wife can have their "just in case" place.
I mean, really, who gives a fuck if a million or so brown Arab Muslims live behind barbed wire?
Phil overlooks the fact that Hamas' electoral victory was primarily a reaction to widespread disgust with Fatah corruption, rather than a vote in favor of armed resistance.
What is this reasonable middle in Israel that Phil alludes to?
Hey Witty, getting a few extra drops of water from the "non-jews fountain" is no one's goal but yours.
Please stop pontificating on what Palestinians need to do until you see the Israeli occupation up close. Go spend a week a month under occupation, and then you'll be writing "Israeli apartheid is evil. Immediate cessation is needed."
... and I"m not even talking about Gaza.
Zionists who minimize the unconscionable dehumanization of the people of Palestine bear the most shame of all.
When we said "never again" we meant it.
How can any Zionist read that analysis and feel anything besides shame?
Well said, Donald. I look forward to the liberal Zionist reply.
Interesting that the liberal zionists who support ongoing apartheid avoid this like the plague.
That's why it's critical that Abbas and Fayyad continue to the annointed leaders.
Barghouti is my hero.
Is there any freedom American "liberals" prize more than the freedom to be an asshole?
Actually, NJ is NOT a good example of educational disparities.
NJ is a "home rule" state with 412 schools districts. Each community basically operates its own school district.
In recognition of the disparty this created, in the late 80s the NJ Supreme Court ruled that the 31 poorest districts in the State (called "Abbot districts" .... I'm sure Trenton is among them) had to be funded to level of the highest achieving districts. So districts like Camden, Trenton and others do in fact receive state funding that brings their per pupil spending up to the level of schools like Princeton and Haddonfield.
link to en.wikipedia.org
The equality of funding hasn't helped raise scores much, however.
NJ definitely has segregated schools. In my view, as a New Jerseyan, it stems from being a "home rule" state. With the election of a radically right-wing governor who recently slashed the education budget, things are soon going to change!
I live in NJ, eee, and let me say: New Jersey is no State of Israel!
Richard, you may not have noticed, but interactions between Palestinians and Israelis tend to take place at the end of gun.
Most Palestinians only experience of Jews is as settlers or soldiers, neither of which makes for fertile ground for developing "friendship."
I'm sure it was a real personal growth experience for you to meet African Americans and becomes friends. Please realize that happened in a country where both people from both cultures were fully free, with full human rights.
BDS is just the thing to break down the walls of apartheid (for one-state or two -- I agree with Jerry) that keep people separate.
Zamaaz... my 15 year old daughter is an Arab-American of Palestinian descent. You think I can protect her from hatred by leaving her home? From a peace rally?
And someone threw a rock at him? Can you explain what happened?
Like I said. "You should be dead." To a teenager.
Oh well. Life goes on.
Richard Witty was falsely presented as a maximalist? The horror!!!
Are you claiming that an Arab or Palestinian attendee actually threw a rock at a rabbi because he had a sign with both flags?
I attended a rally against the Gaza slaughter last December with my family when a Jewish passerby walked in front of us, shouting "Death to Arabs." I pointed to my beautiful 15 -year old daughter and said, "Sir, this girl is an Arab!" He looked her square in the face and said, "you should be dead." To a teenager!
Having attended a gazillion Palestinian protests, the bottom line is that things get heated, rarely do Palestinians in the US get the chance to publicly wave their flags, and there ARE tensions in the movement.
Some Palestinians who attend these events ARE one-staters. I have much respect for Jewish attendees who keep their cool during the "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" chants.
Would 5,000 people suffice?
The IDF can spot a maximalist from a mile away.
The comments following the article say it all!
Thanks for laying it out so articulately, Ahmed.
As much as Palestinian supporters would like to believe otherwise, we must accept the reality that the occupation has become a central core of zionism, and that 2-states will never come to be.
You have given us all much to think about.
Because I have relationships with many wonderful people in Gaza, I can't wrap my head around why the world doesn't give a crap about what happens to these fellow human beings.
Judt reveals the racist core of this thinking, which I suspect is pretty widespread:
Bottom line: The ongoing oppression of Palestinians Chrisitians and Muslims is acceptable because Jewish people need a "just in case" place. The Palestinian Christians and Muslims aren't quite human enough to matter.
It's unconscionable.
Heard a report on Democracy now:
Egyptian Official: Gov’t Forces Can Fire on Protesters
"...Egyptian activists are raising concerns over US funding cuts to governance aid in Egypt. The Obama administration’s recent budget request included a $25 million cut in funding for Egyptian civil society groups. The State Department is also now only allowing funding for groups authorized by the Egyptian government and is considering a plan to create a separate fund that would remove future congressional oversight on US aid..."
Strengthing the puppets in Palestine and Egypt.
Sickening hypocrisy. At least Bush pretended to love democracy.
I am coming to suspect that the (liberal) Zionist refusal to allow for Palestinian self-defense comes from deep seated shame for not fighting back (very much at all) against the Nazis.
They cannot accept it that their victims refuse to submit to their attempts to erase them.
Anyone who grew up in a working class neighborhood "gets" the concept that "if you are trying to take down, you're coming down with me." I remind my kids that lesson time and again: if someone mocks you, picks on you, targets you, make them understand that if they are going to *** with you, there is a price to be paid for that. Make the price too high.
WITTY, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE PALESTINIANS ARE MORALLY REQUIRED TO ALLOW ISRAEL TO STEAL THEIR LAND, DESTROY THEIR PROPERTY, MURDER THEM, LOCK THEM UP EN MASSE and not fight back??????
Are you insane, man?
WWAD? (what would Americans do? I shudder to think how Americans would respond if placed in a situation similar to that of Palestine -- look how we reacted when 2 buildings got knocked down, for crying out loud!)
How can anyone negotiate or dialogue with people with such deep-seated psychological issues?
For the record, I don't support the use of violence against Israeli civilians. I don't think it's effective. But I absolutely believe Palestinians have the "right" to fight back.
I believe that non-violent resistance will work best in the long-run. I believe that BDS, including academic and cultural boycotts are what will ultimately make the price of the status quo "too high."
"Its a grave negligence on the part of dissent to pose conflict as oppression only, even as the goals of stopping the institutions of oppression are just goal."
Is this Witty-speak for: Palestinians were wrong for fighting back and the owe Israel a BIG APOLOGY!
Witty, first, thanks for sharing that info about your family. I appreciate our being open about that. And, as a fellow odd-man-out in a mixed family, I extend my compassion to you. If my grown daughter became a fundy Muslim, my feelings would be hurt, as it would be rejection of all that I believe and value. I would be proud of her for making an independent decision, but to choose a lifestyle so different would sting.
I don't consider the anger I bear, or that my husband bears, an abstract anger as you seem to suggest. His pain is not that of the refugee whose never seen his village and longs for it in an abstract way. His pain is the IDF has his family living in a concentration camp and he can't get in to see them. They are old and will die soon. It's very real and concrete.
My anger that he can't go, but you, or or your son can move to Sderot tomorrow is something justified. It is not pathological anger. It's the kind of anger that energizes and inspires my family to work for justice.
I don't "hate" you or fellow liberal Zionosts, or even RW Israelis. Well... maybe I hate the Shin Bet dude who ass-raped my 14 year old brother-in-law, or the soliders who used my older BIL's neck for an ashtray.
Witty, you misunderstand the concept of reconciliation. Reconciliation isn't justice. Reconciliation is a stage in the process of achieving justice.
In short, reconciliation follows repentance, which requires taking responsibility and CHANGE OF WRONG BEHAVIOR.
(Add to that, you insanely believe that Palestinians owe repentance to Israel.)
You can't have reconciliation while someone is dropping white phosphorus on you (as in Gaza) or has a boot on your neck (as in the WB).
You truth is nonsense. You don't even support any meaningful actions to bring about change in the status quo from Israel.
I haven't always followed comments here.
Is Witty's son truly a settler?
I think you forgot "Whole Foods-shopping" in your list of adjectives.
Thanks VR, but I meant the source for the rabbi's letter! Sorry that I wasn't very clear, 40-odd posts down the thread!