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The War of Ideas in the Middle East
The problem Jews have goes far beyond Zionism. Phil, if you truly wish to be honest, you have to admit that Jews have a tendency to pit groups against one another while playing the role of the middle man who is beyond reproach. You do the same thing when you costantly bring up Jim Crow or talk of an attempted genocide against the black community. Why set white v. black, when neither side has a thing to do with Palestine? The whole role of Jewish involvement in Civil Rights can be viewed as Jews playing whites against blacks for the benefit of Jews when you look at what the Jewish community largely supported in Palestine at the same time---and the Nakba was FAR worse than Jim Crow.
In a previous post on Jewishness, you mentioned the Jewish role as story tellers in America. What sense does it make for a tiny minority of mostly second and third generation Americans, that largely live in ethnic bubbles on the coasts, to tell America's story? Is it any wonder that most Americans feel alienated from the media, and that the nation is in disarray? Is the honest answer to that to perform a bogus switch from Jewsih activist to leftist activist?
Whatever the answer is, silencing non-Jewish voices who question Jewish motives doesn't put you on the right track.
Marc, my original post in this thread was a comment on how the posters at that point in the thread turned the issue into a discussion of the beauty and utility of Hebrew and Yiddish. I guess I didn't make that clear, and none of my other posts have passed the censors.
I pretty much agree with your comments. I don't think that Phil is trying to be provocative or to make a real discussion. I guess he understands that the heavy support of Zionism within the Jewish community exposes the hypocrisy of those who tout the universal and egalitarian nature of the Jewish establishment, which threatens to erase Jewish moral authority and credibility in America. The "meritocracy" regales us sixty years later with self-serving tales of the Civil Rights movement, and it just looks like power politics when it is clear that the same group supported (and largely still does) far worse in Palestine than they were protesting against at home. The only purpose of the half-assed confessions is to convince us of his moral and intellectual superiority, which are, of course, Jewish traits--he's told us as much many times.
Golden! The whole issue winds down into praising the beauty and utility of Yiddish and Hebrew. I bet darkie jokes evoke tears of wonder and deep understanding when told in either language. This is priceless.
I don't think that a person with as much blood on his hands as Lieberman has deserves common politeness. If being questioned on the street by a constituent is the worst thing that happens to him, then he is living a very charmed life.
"I went to Yale for grad school and I saw undergrads like Leiberman: arrogant little pricks they were, and not all that bright...."
I didn't go to Yale, but I think I know the type. We always called them dormtroopers because they were usually locked in their rooms playing Risk and discussing how to run the world.
"Yeah, sorta shoots that whole superiority of the white man right in the foot, doesn’t it?
I will say, however, that when a white man in s. Carolina (my God!) can’t depend on white preference for a promotion things have come to a pretty pass."
So snark and bigotry on your part are supposed to negate Citizen's point?
"Thanks Todd, I will be laughing at this for weeks. Very clever!"
Mooser, you know damn well that I'm right, and attempting sarcasm doesn't change a thing. How many laws specifically discriminate against Jews? None. Do you claim that Jews are portrayed negatively in the media? Are Jews constantly informed by the government and media that they will be replaced? Anyone with an ounce of honesty can admit that there is more anti-white sentiment in the U.S. than anti-semitism.
I have to scratch my head at all the talk of anti-Semitism as if it's the apex of all wrongs. What group doesn't face a certain amount of hostility and negative stereotyping? I can't think of one. I even think it's safe to state that the average white male faces more official and unofficial discrimination and hostility than the average Jew.
I responded to your post, but the censors are overly sensitive. The gist was this:
I see no reason to bow and scrape or take a deferential position towards Jews due to the Holocaust, when the vast majority of American Jews did not experience tha Holocaust, and the Holocaust took place on foreign soil, well before I was born.
I also stated that I don't see any group holding the moral high ground on issues of social justice, race or ethnicity in the U.S. at the moment, and that I usually ignore Jews who take it upon themselves to lecture me on issues of social justice, race and ethnicity or the civil rights movement, because of the very strong support that Israel's actions have recieved from the Jewish community from the very beginning, and because of the unwillingness of those who don't support Israel's actions to hold their co-ethnics accountable for the massive harm that they have done.
"Sounds like a great gig, until you realize that fence sitters are spiritual half-breeds, and may be the loneliest of them all (there you have it in a nut-shell, I managed to turn supreme privilege into a heart-tugging call for sympathy – not bad, eh?)."
I like that, especially the part in parenthesis! Your description of the "oozing liquidy nature of Jewish tribalism" in a later post is also perceptive.
I'd actually like to see the comments that are rejected on this site, and to know the grounds for being rejected. I'm sure that there are some outrageous comments that are rejected for obvious reasons, but I would also bet that many are rejected because they may be a little too accurate, or because the poster didn't follow the unwritten rules for discussing Jews or the behavior of Jews. It seems that Jews can only be mentioned collectively when commenting in a positive manner. It's okay to gush about Jewish intelligence, income, committment to civil rights, justice and universalism, or any of the positive stereotypes. Anything else needs a disclaimer and an apology.
"Try being gay. ANYWHERE."
Do you really feel uncomfortable everywhere? That's a serious question. I know that there are people with irrational dislike towards homosexuals, but I get the feeling that most people aren't that bothered by the issue.
Annie, I think it's safe to say that the general stereotype of Jews in the West isn't that Jews are exotic or fun. In the real world, there are some fun and exotic Jews, but that's not the stereotype.
What do you think of the shiksa or boring white people stereotypes? Do they hold? Are they offensive?
Phil must live in a bubble. It's a well-worn cliche to call whites bland, but I don't think it is accurate at all to claim that Jews are viewed as exciting or mysterious by most non-Jews. Maybe Jews view themselves as such, but the stereotypes that non-Jews hold of Jews tend to be different.
"When the debate over the Israeli-Palestine issues reaches a certain critical mass (if it does) and becomes fuel for our American national discourse, it will be treated in our discourse in the same manner as the other issues are!! And if that doesn’t scare the crap out of you, especially if you are Jewish, it should."
What exactly do you mean by that? Who do you believe is going to harm Jews? Also, do you believe that Zionism is the only issue that other Americans could have with the Jewish community?
There seems to be quite a bit of concern about what Zionism and the accompanying violence and corruption violence does to Jews, but it never seems to be an issue what the violence associated with intervention does to Americans who have to participate, or the affect that the corruption that makes it possible has on the American system or populace.
I don't know why anyone would be surprised that Obama has turned out to be a war monger. He didn't exactly run as a peace candidate.
My guess is that those of you who hate violence, but support the war, do so because you know that you will never have to participate in the violence. It does strike me that in all of the talk about violence and the horrors of war, there is never one single word of sympathy or caution for the young Americans who will actually have to do the fighting. It looks like we need a revolution in this country.
Support for war in Libya depends on the predictable speech that Obama's handlers wrote for him? An acceptable speech still wouldn't change the fact that a civil war in Libya is no business of the U.S.
Is the war in the best economic interests of U.S. taxpayers? Will the price of oil even go down if everything goes as planned? I'm sure the usual profiteers stand to benefit, but I'm not sure that the taxpayers and soldiers will gain much from the experience.
With all the reasons given for wavering support, it is so obvious that few people feel affected by the situation. I'd bet that most people who don't even think of the American kids being sent to war would also consider a fist-fight barbaric. War is insane, and normal people don't collect fingers and skulls or take pictures with the corpses of enemies. Why send fellow Americans into such situations? Is there any compassion for these people?
"I know of no such “Jewish establishment” because Jews in my experience are all over the map in their politics and world views. They don’t constitute a “Jewish establishment"
Fair enough, dbronco. I would then say that there was no WASP establishment, since whites have always been all over the map politically.
"There are many reasons for Americans to resent and resist illegal immigration from these countries in the massive numbers we’re seeing it, some sensible and noble, others horrid and bigoted.
The only similarity at all with the Palestinian cause is the fact that the Israelis have built a wall, and some Americans want to. On balance I would say this project is a failure, and of course it’s especially ironic that it’s taking place in Arizona, which is currently home to numerous individuals who have broken the law to take up residence there."
Be prepared to be called a xenophobe, Gellian!
I agree with you, and will go a step farther in saying that this type of divisive ethnic politics is somethinng that many Americans dislike, and could easily start to associate with Jewish group politics. I don't think it is unfair at all to say that Zionism is not the only conflict that most Americans would have with the Jewish establishment.
Wrong thread, but I already deleted it twice while it up for moderation. This is the post that I meant to add:
" Habbakuk is on to something I have noticed myself: that when push comes to shove, American Jews will walk away from the Zionist project, they will choose their liberal values over maintaining dual loyalty."
I see no reason to believe that many Jews are willing to abandon Israel, but that doesn't matter, since Zionisim isn't the only issue between Jews and their non-Jewish neighbors. The "liberal values" of Jews are also a source of irritation to many, and it's only a hop, skip and jump from talking about progressives to talking about Jewish progressives.
Also, why do Jews get to merrily skip away from dual loyalty and past actions? If we have to bring group identity into politics, then it is fair to notice that many Jews offer different medicine to other groups. Young Germans don't get a pass for the actions of Nazis, WASPS can't get a break, and the Jewish establisment is still crowing 50 years later about an involvement in the U.S. Civil Rights movement--at the same time it largely supported much worse in Palestine. Talk about wishful thinking!
So much of the sentiment in the excerpt below can apply to non-Zionist Jews, also.
"The belief that one represents a state of achieved perfection, and that any hostility on the part of others can only be understood either in terms of their moral turpitude or one's failure adequately to explain one's virtues, is dangerous enough for the United States and Britain, who have the benefit of relatively secure geographic locations. The Israelis, who do not, simply cannot afford to duck out of the endeavour – which is commonly liable to be less than entirely pleasurable – of confronting how one is actually seen by others, in order to understand how they have responded to what one has done in the past, and calculate how they might respond to what one might do in the future...."
There are many reasons for Americans to resent and resist illegal immigration from these countries in the massive numbers we’re seeing it, some sensible and noble, others horrid and bigoted.
The only similarity at all with the Palestinian cause is the fact that the Israelis have built a wall, and some Americans want to. On balance I would say this project is a failure, and of course it’s especially ironic that it’s taking place in Arizona, which is currently home to numerous individuals who have broken the law to take up residence there.
"Exactly. Todd’s “wishful thinking” presupposes what others should do....."
I'm not sure what you mean. I'd also like to live in a world where everyone were well-mannered, but I don't take it upon myself to go around correcting other people.
"It would have been horrible simply to leave the people in Benghazi to their fate, which would have been, on the evidence we had, a terrible one."
You are probably right about the fate of the rebels in Libya, if Qadaffi can be taken at his word, and it wouldn't be pleasant to know it happened. I just don't particularly like the idea of war, and believe that fighting should be avoided if possible. Of all the people that I have known who have been to war, none benefitted from the experience.
I also don't trust the U.S. government not to make a mess of things. People are going to die, anyway, and I'm not convinced that fewer will die if the U.S. intervenes. Needless to say, I don't trust the U.S. government when it takes on the task of deciding who the right people to die are, either. If we are lucky, there will be an upside to intervention, but I think that an opposite outcome is more likely.
What I think doesn't matter, because it is only wishful thinking on my part to believe that the people running the nation will mind their own business. Since these very same people can do little right at home (other than enrich themselves at the expense of others) I assume that is what they will do abroad, even if they fail in killing the right people.
I don't support sending troops to Libya, but I don't support intervention anywhere. I prefer neutrality, but that's just wishfull thinking.
I knew an Iraqi Jew in Israel who said that she was tired of hearing about the Holocaust and said that she didn't care about it at all. She was annoyed when the topic came up, so I would think that not all Israeli Jews care about the issue, either. What will Israel do with those people?
No person in his right mind believes that Christian Zionists are the power behind the Israel lobby. This is about as funny to watch as reglar' Jews arguing with Zionists over who has corrupted Jewishness the most and will piss off the unwashed masses the most.
I think Stewart is raising a moist finger rather than dipping a dry toe.
"That American Jews at the top of the corporate ladder are dual citizens who will sell out this country because they are Jews, and cannot be counted on to obey US laws, no matter what they are."
How much better is entrenched tribalism that flies in the face of democracy, and has the faintly masked scent of Jewish supremacy? Is tribalism better when it is used against fellow Americans?
I guess I should have directed the question at eee, but I like the way you put things.
"It spelled political opportunism, not any genuine sense of social justice...."
I agree with your post for the most part. However, I'm not sure that Zionism is the driving force in the political opportunism that you mentioned. I think it's fair to say that the Jewish establishment has justified itself with its involvement in Civil Rights.
The general theme is that the old establishment lost its legitimacy due to its wrong views on racial and ethnic equality, and that the Jewish establishment's legitimacy rests on righting those wrongs. That's fairly general, but I think it is a decent description. I also think it is fair to state that Zionism was very popular among American Jews at the height of Jewish involvement in the American Civil Rights movement, which makes the rhetoric of the Jewish establishment (and very many ordinary Jews) about racial equality completely hollow.
No matter how popular Zionism is or was, I don't believe that it was Zionism which caused many Jews to grab at the brass ring in America at all costs, to support the murder and dispossession of Palestinians, and the waging of war against Israel's neighbors, while supporting desegregation at home. It doesn't ring true to me. I'd say that greed, misdirected revenge and lust for power had as much to do with either position for many. It sounds more plausible that the usual blather about the unfortunate blindness of the morally and intellectually superior. I'd also say that it is obvious that even among non-Zionist Jews, many are enjoying the fruits of ethnic cohesion. There's nothing special in any of that.
"I keep saying that Witty is lying profusely about his role as a liberal during the Civil Rights movement. He’s a fraud. None of his ideology meshes with concepts of civil liberties."
Why would you say that, Chaos? I don't think it was uncommon for Jews to support the Civil Rights movement while supporting Zionism at the same time. I get the impression that it was quite common. Why it was so common is the real issue.
It's good to see that Obama isn't just resting on his laurels after winning the Nobel Peace Prize. How anyone ever believed that Obama was an authenic supporter of peace, who would rein in the war machine, is beyond me. Independent thinkers with integrity aren't rushed from out of nowhere to the front of the line, unexamined and bullet-proofed, by the powers that be.
Obama was a safe bet for the war mongers all along, and he spelled this out during the presidential debates for anyone who cared to listen.
I'm as concerned about the views of American Jews on Jewish tribalism and ethnocentrism in the U.S. as I am with their ties to Israel. Both are destructive.
"For decades, AIPAC, the Anti-Defamation League, and other such right-leaning groups have played an outsized role in American politics, pressuring members of congress and presidents with their capacity to raise money and swing elections."
This annoys me about Rosenberg's article. How are AIPAC and the ADL "right-leaning" in any American sense? What does either group have in common with traditional American conservatism, or the U.S. Right?
"Second, it has become abundantly clear that Israel's isolation is increasing at such a rapid rate (Turkey and Egypt distancing themselves from Israel in a single year) that the continuation of the occupation (and the conflict that emanates from it) threatens the existence of Israel itself.
That is why there will be more Remnicks and more Beinarts. Not because influential Americans like them are indifferent to Israel's survival. But because they aren't."
Mixing Israeli views with American views, when the two aren't compatible, along with the statement above confirm that it is highly unlikely that a family feud among American Jews will produce much of benefit to Palestinians or most Americans. If "influential Americans" can't be indifferent to Israel's survival, we're in for more conflict.
"Israel has many strengths... We know where this ends. But it has to end, and each side has to make painful concessions.... It has to happen."
Who really believes that non-Jewish Americans or Palestinians will benefit from a feud within American Jewry over Israel? We know where the soft spot and sentimentality lie. The quote above gives the game away! The concern is only for Israel and Jews.
If Jews are calling the shots on American policy, the rest of the nation will be involved in Palestine, no matter how many states the solution involves, and Palestinians will be in an inferior position.
I'd be willing to bet that the family discussion does not involve the idea that Israel does not have a right to exist, or that the U.S. should not be involved. And I'd guess that the idea of Israel paying back loans to the U.S. stands a 100% chance of not being mentioned, along with discussing whether tribe comes before nationality.
The existence of Israel in the region will always be a festering sore. Why should Palestinians except the loss of lands, or an inferior position within one state. Wo really believes that Palestinians will be among the monied, educated or political elites in a one state solution? That's not going to happen.
American Jews are living in a failing multi-ethnic experiment themselves.
It sounds like you are claiming that Jews are the only sane and intelligent group vying for influence in the U.S. Some of your characterizations are unfair. The "religious kooks" are often heavily influenced by, or involved with, Zionist Jewish kooks and actual fascists. The Tea Party is largely a movement of middle and upper-middle class tax protesters with enough money to be tax targets, but not enough money to be of use to politicians, and has been so since the early days of the movement. Sure the movement has been co-opted to a degree as it has grown, but the fact that it is disorganized while growing shouldn't be a surprise.
I guess the "reactionaries and wanna-be fascists" are whites who don't like immigration supporters within the government and MSM who state outright that whites are to be displaced for no good reason, without a vote, and largely illegally--and legally discriminated against through affirmative action until the displacement is official. Who would react against that?
The fact remains that the Jewish elites are not doing a very good job for most Americans. I seriously doubt that America will be a more prosperous, law-abiding or tranquil place 30 years from now.
I don't see how America can exist as it does far into the future, yet we are supposed to safeguard Israel and affirm its right to exist as a Jewish state. Something is clearly rotten in the state of America.
"Are these universities showing favoritism? "
The whole system of university admissions is open to favoritism, when rigging isn't mandated by law. I don't know how often Jews benefit from unfair standards, but to claim that admissions are based on merit alone is wrong.
No matter what the truth is about admissions, the nation is being horribly managed by our Ivy League grads, no matter who they are. If Jews are the new WASPs, as Phil claims, they take the position in name only. Education and titles aside, these poeple aren't very good at what they are doing.
Donald, I've already tried to post this reply several times. I guess one more try isn't going to hurt.
I'm familiar with the convict labor and sharecropping systems, both of which affected many whites, also. I don't defend either institution, or the unfair treatment of blacks under Jim Crow. I just refuse to compare Jim Crow to the situation in Palestine. Under Jim Crow, there was no attempt to make war on blacks. The military was not used to dispossess blacks, and blacks were not napalmed and bombed. Those are very real differences.
I doubt that many whites at the time would have cared if blacks just disappeared, but the different states under Jim Crow were not organized around a military that was mainly concerned with ridding itself of blacks at almost all costs, as is Israel in regards to its non-Jewish subjects.
I guess it's also worth noting that Israel is a tiny, modern nation with a modern military that is used almost solely to control and destroy the native Palestinians. The South under Jim Crow was huge by comparison, and was a collection of different states with little centralization, and no military capacity other than state militias. Much of what happened was determined on the local level. Outside of some settler violence (which is okayed from up high) I think it's safe to say that Israel is far more centralized and planned than were the various states, collectively or alone, under Jim Crow. I think that also makes a big difference. I'm not sure how that is strange.
Donald, a good number of my posts don't make it to the threads, and apparently, my reply to you is another. I don't think it's a technical issue, and I seriously doubt that I broke any TOS agreement. If I broke a rule, then it is a selectively applied rule.
Donald, you are right that the average Christian isn't exactly a religious scholar. I even doubt that more than a very small number of American Christians are committed enough to follow someone like Calvin today.
I don't believe for a second that any group of Christians is driving the Israel train in the U.S. In the case of non-Jewish Americans, the ignorance and support for Israel is more understandable than that of Jews. Israel is central to many Jews, and really means nothing to most Americans. Very few non-Jewish Americans have relatives or friends in Israel, or visit Israel themselves, and I wouldn't imagine that any join the IDF.
For most Americans, the issue of Israel is largely an annoyance, fueled by constant propaganda, with a predetermined good guy. I think that most people understand on some level that support for Israel is expected, and that not doing so is seen in a bad light. There is more than a loopy version Christianity at work.
"Apartheid sounds like that’s all there is to it when in fact it’s far worse! "
The constant comparisons to Jim Crow and Apartheid are either cliched writing, or an attempt to allow Israel and her supporters to land softly, by refusing to allow Israel's crimes to stand on their own, through constantly conflating Israel's actions to highly emotional issues of lesser evil.
As bad as Jim Crow and Apartheid were, they don't compare to the 60+ years of brutal warfare, dispossession and oppression interrupted by periods of cynical and phoney peace that is Israel's existence. Any honest person understands this.
"It was an epiphany. I was totally naïve, totally in the dark and I believe so many of the American Jewish population are totally in the dark. We cannot believe that a Jewish person would behave like that. It’s not the Jewish way. We have suffered so much that if anybody should understand the Palestinian problem, it should be Jewish people."
I just have to scratch my head in disbelief when I come across such statements. Do people like Schnabel really believe that Palestinians were peacefully dispossessed and controlled? Can he really not believe that Jews can behave in such a manner? Really? What other people would he be surprised to see behaving as Israelis behave? The use of past suffering to justify later aggression is common, so I don't know why anyone should be surprised at what is happening in Palestine 60+ years into the game. Unbelievable!
"You would not believe (or maybe you would) how many Christians feel that bigotry against Muslims is about the best way to find common ground with a Jew like me."
How could they ever get that idea?
Nonsense? I guess it should read more than a few, rather than quite a few. Not much of a difference there, since I don't claim to know the exact number of Japanese terrorists or fighters involved. Obviously, we arent talking hundreds or thousands of people, but Japanese terrorists and fighters were present, and they did make an impact.
"really? perhaps their msm is just not overwhelmingly zionist. maybe they aren’t fans of occupations."
That was sarcasm, grandma!
It's common knowledge, just like the situation in Egypt. Look it up yourself. My source is conversations with UN troops serving in Lebanon.
"Nope, it had to be something (or some things) that affected only Americans"
It's not blogs, Goldstone or college. I would guess that people are tiring of Jewish influence, and the constant beating of the drums for Israel--it's not like it's been laid on thin! The average person isn't as stupid as he's given credit for being. Lots of people know of the USS Liberty, and many people who have served in the military have come in contact with our favored nation. The financial crisis hasn't helped, either. Israel is a luxury we can no longer to pretend to afford.
I don't think many Christian Zionists believe that Israel is peace-loving, or that Palestinians weren't violently thrown from their own lands, and Christian Zionists aren't a large percentage of Christians in America. I don't believe the percentage of non-Jews in America who would have voluntarily given money or fought for Israel was ever high, and was certainly never as high as the number of people who have expressed sympathy for Israel. My sympathy is with Israel's enemies, but I wouldn't fund or fight for them.
The scam is bound to bust eventually. When America is being torn apart in almost every way, it doesn't make sense for Americans to worry about Israel's right to exist or coddle the Jewish community.
"Japan’s positive rating of Israel is among the lowest. I wonder why."
Japanese extremist groups have supplied quite a few terrorists and fighters for Hizbullah and other groups fighting Israel. I guess the Japanese are just anti-Semites.
In a better world, the U.S. would not involve itself in the affairs of other nations, and the Palestinians and Jews trying to influence U.S. policies would be in Palestine fighting it out. I fail to see why I should have an interest in what happens in Palestine.
"First you claimed it was the 1990s, now you’re alleging that you’ve spoken to people who have been there in the 1960s.
What’s next? Are you going to claim that you’ve used a time machine to go back to the 1930s?"
Yes, Avi, my personal experiences date from the 1990s, but I also spoke to people who have repeatedly visited the region since the late 1960s and told similar stories. How is that impossible?
"hey todd, what if i claimed this about israel, sans one iota of evidence....."
You really don't pay attention, do you, Annie? The last thing I do is throw around the "anti-Semite" accusation. If you care to read about some of my experiences in Israel, they are posted above.
Also, I told you in a prior thread that I heard similar stories from many different women who returned to Israel from Egypt. My experiences date from the early 90s, but I spoke to people who had made the trip many times since the late 60s, and they said the situation has always been difficult for female tourists. Feel free to believe otherwise.
I'm really saddened to know that you think I'm a racist.
"plus it’s a THREAD HIGHJACK todd. you’d rather talk about abuse of egyptian women, we get it."
Thread highjack? Annie, scroll up, and you will see that my original post was about strip searches at Ben Gurion. Another poster brought up Egypt.
Annie, believe what you want. The situation in Eypt for female TOURISTS is well-known. Apparently Egyptians do have a different attitude towards women than we do in the West. Is that a shock to you? I guess Mubarak also brought about female circumcision, too, huh? Apparently the socail reforms of 1956 missed that.
As far as my claims morphing goes, I haven't changed anything. Apparently, you just didn't read the part where I told you that my claims predated the articles you posted. Besides, tourists from friendly nations are not political activists in need of a good sexual asault. I've heard similar stories about groping and harassment from women who have been in Turkey and Morocco, and I know that Mubarak has nothing to do with what goes on in those places.
Personally, I don't care what happens in Egypt. If Egyptians want to grope women in public, it's their culture and their business. I'm not one of those multiculturalists who expect everyone to act the same.
I have to give you sources for things that I saw and was told repeatedly by different people at different times? Believe what you want.
Annie, I've told you before that my experiences predate your articles, and I met people who had similar experiences in Egypt before Mubarak was even in charge.
The US supports the IDF and Israel's leadership, and the IDF clearly has policies designed to humiliate non-Jewish women, but I have a hard time blaming the IDF for what I saw in Israel.
Whining? I just relayed experiences and stories that I was told, Avi.
I was told by different groups of girls that came to Israel at different times that they were strip searched and groped at Ben Gurion, and these were official kibbutz volunteers arranged by the Artzi movement, rather than just aimless wanderers.
There aren't too many places where I would advise a female loved one to travel alone, and Israel is not one of those places. The atmosphere isn't as bad as in Egypt, but why put up with the humiliation? I saw how the kibbutzniks acted towards these girls. Several of the kibbutzniks on the kibbutz I was at were caught staring into the female volunteers' showers, and another was found peeping into a girl's room. Several of the kibbutz men told me that you aren't a man until you have f****d a blonde gentile. Is that enough for you?
As bad as Israel was, I still don't recall women being groped/assaulted in public, let alone on a regular basis.
Strip searches and groping have been used on female tourists at Ben Gurion for years.
"Is it only when the people protesting look different than you are protesting that it disturbs you, or any protests?"
Surely you can do better than that, Deb! I was pretty clear about what annoyed me. Though my complaint wasn't about the way the people look, you still chime in with some bs about racism. That really took some thought on your part!
And I'm very aware of the foreign aid involved and the role the U.S. government has played in installing and supporting tyrants. I'm sure there are monkeys swinging in the trees who know those things at this point. So? Should I change my opinion because our tyrants support other tyrants? I don't support American citizens involving themselves in the internal affairs of other nations, whether they are elected officials or goofy activist types.
And don't bother lecturing me on democracy. If the US were a democracy where the actual citizens had a voice, the nation would be very different. The foreign aid would not exist, and the invade and invite mentality/immigration policies that brought the protesters here in the first place would also not exist if Americans had a voice in their own government. And a situation where unelected operatives from a tiny ethnic group operate behind the scenes, with different standards than the vast majority of the population, to benefit their own group would not exist in a democracy or any open society. Save your democracy crap for someone else.
Yes, it bothers me to see two unasimilated groups using/trying to use the US government to fund or fight their battles. I'm such a subversive!
I wish the Palestinians, Egyptians, Libyans, and every group in the region fighting to throw off dictators the very best. But I have to say that I find it distasteful when groups of them hold rallies in my town or otherwise have political movements based in the U.S. I find it just as offensive as I find Jewish groups who use the U.S. as a base for supporting Israel.
Outside of wishing decent people the best of luck, the problems of the Middle East should not be my concern.
"Even after Oslo and the establishing of the Palestinian Authority, Palestinians can’t travel freely; they are tried in military courts and are subject to the decisions of the regional military commanders."
As bad as Jim Crow was for blacks, nothing like this happened in the Jim Crow South. Israel's brutality towards the Palestinians far exceeds anything that ever happened to blacks in the segregated South. To say that both are unjust is one thing, but to make apples-to-apples comparisons is wrong.
"ROTFLMSJAO!!! Cause except for the ME, all those privileged Jews are devoted to justice for all and a hand up to the oppressed! Yes sir, we get this Israel thing straightened out and we will be batting 1.000!"
ROTFLMSWAO! I liked that, too! Your response is good, but I would refer Phil to MRW's post at the top of the page to get an idea of how the "meritocracy" is in danger of being viewed by the masses. As Balkanized as America is at this point, I'm not sure that anything like a directed mass anger could form. I know it's hard to believe, but few people are as satisfied with the performance of the elites as Phil is. The nation is failing its citizens in every way possible, and our major downside relates to Israelis and Palestinians? Really??
Who needs proof at this point? Obvious is obvious.
Fundamentalist Christians who lose on every issue they put forth, and can't even keep the Ten Commandments posted on a rural courthouse in Alabama where you'd be hard-pressed to find an actual local who isn't a fundamentalist Christian, are not in control of foreign policy. I'd also guess that Big Oil which doesn't need the headaches and instability that Israel brings to the region isn't thrilled with the way things are going. And on the surface, it seems that the MIC would also benefit more from selling to everyone in the region rather than gifting Israel with freebies (at US taxpayer expense) and watching Israel steal and transfer technology. Does the US MIC really benefit from a largely unified Arab/Muslim front against an Israel that rarely pays for anything out of its own pockets?
It's really hard to believe that the Jewish community has that much sway, but what's a better explanation?
First of all, the sexual harassment that took place happened well before any of the articles that Annie posted. The people were not political activists, but young women who were backpacking through Egypt. Harassment was constant, and Mubarak had nothing to do with it. Why make excuses?
It's clear that you haven't experienced the effects of illegal immigration, so take your lame accusations of racism and xenophobia elsewhere. If all you can do is throw around accusations of racism and xenophobia at opponents of massive illegal immigration, then I can assume that you are pretty dense yourself.
I only know what I was told repeatedly. I’ve never heard Egyptians complain of being sexually assaulted by government goons, so I wouldn’t know if that happens regularly or not.
When a man approaches a woman, tells her how “sexit” she is, comments on her skin and hair color, and then tries to kiss her, that isn’t political, and it has nothing to do with Hosni Mubarak. That is just one story from someone I do not doubt, and I have no reason to doubt the stories I heard from many other women that I met. Most described Egypt as scary.
The article is about female reporters, and small errors don't really take away from the gist of the article. What happened to Lara Logan is no surprise to anyone who has spoken with western girls/women who have travelled in Egypt.
Annie, I didn't see your other comments.
I only know what I was told repeatedly. I've never heard Egyptians complain of being sexually assaulted by government goons, so I wouldn't know if that happens regularly or not. But I do know that the actions and attitudes expressed in the streets by ordinary Egyptians had nothing to do with Hosni Mubarak or politics.
When a man approaches a woman, tells her how "sexit" she is, comments on her skin and hair color, and then tries to kiss her, that isn't political, and it has nothing to do with Hosni Mubarak. That is just one story from someone I do not doubt, and I have no reason to doubt the stories I heard from many other women that I met. Most described Egypt as scary.
This happened in Israel, and apparently some enterprising Israeli found it would be in good taste to produce a play on the events. She only did it for the moral lessons involved, though. Needless to say, the victim objected.
link to haaretz.com
link to haaretz.com
As crude as I found Israeli men to be towards foreign/non-Jewish women, Egypt is apparently far, far worse! I met countless women who travelled in Egypt, and every one talked of being openly groped and propositioned in public. Being followed is apparently very common.
Israel is sleazy, but Egypt is downright dangerous.
Annie, you replied to my comment, not the other way around. However, out of politeness, I'll ignore you from now on, if that is what you want.
I guess in a very general sense, a populist is someone who wishes to uplift the masses. In the U.S., the major movements were for agrarian reform, you know, to help the people of the soil. I'm not sure how a person who considers himself part of an elite, and writes about "people of the soil" under a thread about the "Elite flavor" of a revolution in Egypt is a populist. I guess there are comparisons with Tom Watson. Maybe that's the linkage.
I remember the Little Engine that Could, but this thread reminds me more of the 70s movie Carwash, particularly the carwash owner's son. Does that ring a bell?
Annie, you make Phil sound like a regular Jewish messiah! How is he going to uplift everyone? I don't recall Phil ever putting forth a way to create opportunities for the masses. Do you really expect that someone who has no idea how the people of the soil live, or who is still struggling with his own belief in Jewish superiority is really a populist?
I'm familiar with the concept of populism, Annie. We can quibble of which definitions we care for, but I think it's fairly obvious what a populist isn't.
Oh, damn, Annie, I forgot that America is a propositional nation, and that there is no such thing as an average American, but there are people of the soil. Interesting that you object to one and not the other.
Are mechanics people of the grease? How about bakers? Are they people of the flour? I guess cleaners would be be people of the mop. Hmmm...this really a person something to think about.