Big Change in Media: Arabs Are Suddenly Human Beings. Israel Is Becoming South Africa

by Philip Weiss on January 24, 2008 · 50 comments

Three straws in the wind:

–Last night on National Public Radio’s "Marketplace", Kai Ryssdal did a wonderful interview with Palestinian economist Youssef Dauod about prices in Rafah, in which Dauod was allowed to say that the Israelis had created a "humanitarian" crisis in Gaza, and the world must pay attention. There is nothing new in that comment. What is new is that Ryssdal aired it in a financial story and did not feel an obligation to get an Israeli spokesman to counter it!

–Last night I heard from an Arab student at MIT who told me that a group of Arab MIT students is now touring Middle East countries to urge Arab students to come to the U.S. to study–the first such delegation since 9/11. The group is now in the West Bank; and of course was stopped for 7 hours at an Israeli checkpoint on the Allenby Bridge from Jordan into Palestine. It is setting up a video conference this weekend with students in Gaza. And my informant tells me that the Boston Globe is writing about the group.

–A day or so back ADL’s Abraham Foxman issued an enraged statement at the "torrent of condemnation" of Israel’s policies in Gaza coming from international voices who are "relatively silent" about the "thousands of deadly rocket" attacks from Palestinians into southern Israel. The ADL statement is factually accurate: the international community and the American media have lately focused on the plight of the Palestinians– far more than on the fact that a dozen innocent Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rockets over the last couple of years.

I am a cockeyed optimist, but I believe that something has changed: Arabs are being treated as human beings in our press. And Israel is taking on the coloration of South Africa in apartheid days. Israel  emerges in these reports as the thug in the background. Yesterday I blogged about Alan Dershowitz pouncing on Col. Lawrence Wilkerson for mentioning Walt and Mearsheimer in seminars. That was two years ago, nearly. It’s hard to imagine Dershowitz having the time to do so now. The blackout has been broken. Suddenly the water is safe for fairminded journalists…

Again, I’m an idealist, but I think these good things have come from: Jimmy Carter’s passionate book, Walt and Mearsheimer’s moral bravery, even the war in Iraq. For three or four years now Americans have been shown the suffering of Arabs in Iraq, Arabs hurt by the United States through no fault of their own. We have seen Arab scientists and librarians on TV, Arab schoolchildren, and Arab parents who seem somehow to invest their every hope in their children. Americans have come to relate to Arabs as human beings, and that sympathy now extends to the Gazans.

Hearts and minds, hearts and minds. Thus spake the condescending American. Well, hearts and minds works both ways. American hearts and minds are changing!


 

P.S. It would seem from Wikipedia’s list of Qassam attacks that there have been 100s of deadly rockets fired from Gaza, not thousands…

Related posts:

  1. Barring 2-State Solution, Israel Becomes South Africa–Without South Africa’s ‘Solution’, Israeli Minister Warns
  2. Walt: Iraq Was an Intellectual ‘Experiment’ for Neocons, Absent Human Beings
  3. Latest Israel Abuse Story Has More of a Soviet Union Vibe Than a South Africa One
  4. World writers urge American writers to admit, Israel is South Africa Redux
  5. Jimmy Carter: ‘the citizens of Palestine are treated more like animals than like human beings’

{ 50 comments }

1 Richard Witty January 24, 2008 at 11:02 am

"I am a cockeyed optimist, but I believe that something has changed: Arabs are being treated as human beings in our press. "

Obviously great progress. Especially as the ones that are identified as contributing to BOTH world and Palestinian society are the sober ones, the DON'T include a rhetorical condemnation of Israel in every breath.

The Gazans are uniquely ILL-SERVED by the presence of fanatics (militias) that expose civilians to the repurcussions of their criminality. And, they are ill-served by the leadership of Hamas and others that encourages and allows the shelling of Israeli civilians, pretending that that is somehow "resistance" or "peace-seeking".

2 Charles Keating January 24, 2008 at 11:04 am

January 21, 2008

We, the Israeli organizations signed below, deplore the decision by the Israeli government to cut off vital supplies of electricity and fuel (and therefore water, since the pumps cannot work), as well as essential foodstuffs, medicines and other humanitarian supplies to the civilian population of Gaza. Such an action constitutes a clear and unequivocal crime against humanity.

Prof. John Dugard, the UN Special Rapporteur for Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories, called the Israeli government’s actions "serious war crimes" for which its political and military officials should be prosecuted and punished. The killing of more than 40 civilians this past week violates, he said, "the strict prohibition on collective punishment contained in the Fourth Geneva Convention. It also violates one of the basic principles of international humanitarian law that military action must distinguish between military targets and civilian targets." Indeed, the very legal framework invoked by the Israeli government to carry out this illegal and immoral act – declaring Gaza a "hostile entity" within a "conflict short of war" – has absolutely no standing in international law.

We call on the Secretary General of the UN, Mr. Ban Ki-Moon, to lead the Security Council to a decisive decision to end the siege on Gaza when it meets in emergency session on Wednesday.

We call on the governments of the world, and in particular the American government and the European Parliament, to censure Israel’s actions and, in light of recent attempts to revive the diplomatic process, to end all attacks on civilians, including the continuing demolition of Palestinian homes at an alarming rate.

We call upon the Jews of the world in whose name the Israeli government purports to speak, and upon their rabbis and communal leaders in particular, to speak out unequivocally against this offense to the very moral core of Jewish values.

And we call upon the peoples of the world to let their officials and leaders know of their repudiation of this cruel, illegal and immoral act – an act that stands out in its cruelty even in an already oppressive Israeli Occupation.

We condemns attacks on all civilians, and we acknowledge the suffering of the residents of Sderot. Still, those attacks do not justify the massive disproportionality of Israeli sanctions over a million and half civilians of Gaza, in particular in light of Israel’s oppressive 40 year occupation. Such violations of international law by a government are especially egregious and must be denounced and punished if the very system of human rights and international law is to be preserved.

The Israeli government’s decision to punish Gaza’s civilian population, with all the human suffering that entails, constitutes State Terrorism against innocent people. Only when Israeli policy-makers are held accountable for their actions and international law upheld will a just peace be possible in the Middle East.

The Alternative Information Center * Bat Tsafon * Gush Shalom * The Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD) * Physicians for Human Rights * Coalition of Women for Peace

3 Charles Keating January 24, 2008 at 11:11 am

The Gazans are uniquely ILL-SERVED by the presence of state-sponsored governmental and IDF fanatics that expose Palestinian civilians to the repurcussions of official Israeli criminality–policy many Israeli citizens object to, with no more force than the American citizens who objected to their government's Bush-implemented foreign policy, given a blank check by the USA congress, and funded, apparently, forever unless Ron Paul gets elected .

4 liberal white boy January 24, 2008 at 11:21 am

I wonder many years ago what Americans would have thought about the suggestion that it would take bravery to criticize a foreign country or a lobby working on its behalf. Yes Richard Israel is a foreign country to most of us. And based on it's murderous and oppressive history toward Palestinians, deserves our condemnation with every breath. Like the annoucement that more land would be stolen in East Jerusalem yesterday. http://homo-sapien-underground.blogspot.com/2008/01/mayor-of-jerusalem-announces.html

5 J.E. Dundee January 24, 2008 at 11:35 am

Perhaps a little bit of the truth is finally appearing in the media because it is now or never. If our insane foreign policy doesn't change soon, it will be too late. As I note on my blog: America, Israel's cash cow, has mad cow disease and is not long for this world.

6 Richard Witty January 24, 2008 at 11:58 am

Phil,
120 rockets were fired in 3 days this week.

On civilians only.

7 observer January 24, 2008 at 12:35 pm

Richard, why do you worry so much more about the rockets going out of Gaza than the bombs going in? You seem to have an extremely judeocentric perspective on everything.

And please remember that Sderot was originally a Palestinian village. Those Palestinians were driven into the camps of Gaza in 1948.

8 Jim Haygood January 24, 2008 at 1:22 pm

"I believe that something has changed: Arabs are being treated as human beings in our press." As Philip intuits, treating Arabs as human beings is a profound threat to the "Israel right or wrong" stance shared by the U.S. government and the Lobby.

A key reason for coded remarks by Hillary Clinton about Barack Obama's youth in Indonesia is that having lived in an Islamic country, he likely regards muslims as human beings, rather than as a billion-strong mass of faceless fundamentalists, terrorists, and Jew haters (a common enough stereotype in American politics and journalism).

Consequently, Obama is being subjected to loyalty tests that other candidates are not. Within hours of yesterday's Gazan prison break, Obama fired off a letter to the U.S. ambassador to the UN, seeking to head off anticipated harsh criticism of Israel for its lockdown of Gaza. Shmuel Rosner of Haaretz had it within minutes yesterday, and quotes it again today:

"I urge you to ensure that a Council resolution won't pass that does not 'fully condemn' the Qassam attacks on Israel," Obama wrote. "We all are worried about the consequences of the blockade on Palestinian families. Nonetheless, we must understand why Israel is forced to do this."

Rosner goes on: "Obama's letter was not meant to respond to the urgent needs of the voters, but to continue the necessary process of recent weeks: combating the rumors that he would be a president who does not support Israel, and even worse, rumors claiming he is Muslim, and that he doesn't tend to pledge his allegiance to his country, and so on and so forth."

http://tinyurl.com/2p53gw

Uh huh. I can't prove it, but I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that the Lobby drafted the letter, presented it for Obama's signature as a non-negotiable demand, and then forwarded it to Rosner and other journalists as soon as the ink was dry enough to stick it in the fax machine.

It's sad to see Obama rationalizing that Israel was "forced" to indulge in a blockade of Gaza in response to rocket attacks on Sdedot perpetrated by a few militants. Viewing those 1.5 million people as human beings would preclude such measures. In fact, it would preclude most of U.S. middle eastern policy across the board. The horror, the horror!

9 americangoy January 24, 2008 at 6:00 pm

I had the same feeling.

Dare I say the exact same feeling:
http://americangoy.blogspot.com/2008/01/treated-like-animals.html

10 LanceThruster January 24, 2008 at 7:09 pm

Huffingtonpost.com gatekeeping

I tried posting this at HuffPo on this article but these sorts of observations never seem to make the cut. (See: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/23/gazans-flood-egypt-after-_n_82809.html ) The site will allow the comments on essays about Bush run into the thousands, but if it involves anything that might make Zionist uncomfortable, they keep a pretty tight grasp of the reins. Their rationale is most likely to prevent blatant anti-Semitism from flooding the comments but I know for a fact that comments that deal with the politics exclusively and are not racist diatribes get scrubbed whereas they’ll include a few exclamations of “crank up the ovens!” or the like to supposedly confirm the wisdom of their gatekeeper logic. Many of us working to keep truth in the forefront will be happy to see that many other HuffPo commenters see what is going on at HuffPo. The ultimate example of this is how they close the comments sections when Alan Dershowitz tries to smear Dr. Norman Finkelstein. I was going to provide examples where they closed Dershowitz comments at 19 and 23 respectively because they were on the whole quite supportive of Dr. Finkelstein and quite derisive of Mr. Dershowitz’ “scholarship” but when I went to check, they scrubbed those few comments that originally made it up while still keeping the comments closed (see: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/finkelsteins-fraudulent-_b_3436.html )

[begin unposted HuffPo comment]

“Even though many readers of HuffPo see it as bending over backwards to avoid upsetting Zionist sensibilities, Pamela Gellar of "Atlas Shrugs" has the HuffPo link posted as proof of left-wing anti-Semitism (as opposed to actually taking Israel to task for its criminal behavior). See here: http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/01/more-leftist-je.html

It should be noted that I was/am banned from "Atlas Shrugs" right around the time I caught her using comment shills in her postings. This was established in that a commenter responded to something specifically that was only mentioned in a personal email to Ms. Gellar and not in the public comments. I was banned shortly after pointing this out publically. I mention this because she is going on about how the time stamps on the HuffPo comments are supposedly before the article even went up.”

[end post]

The details of my identity have been outed some time ago thanks to some particularly annoying and unbalanced brownshirts at the LA Jewish Journal forum but I have always maintained this particular handle as it creates a body of work of my particular views (and their evolution over time). I do not hide from them in the least but have experienced harassment by those who seek any advantage they can in silencing voices they disagree with. It is encouraging however, to read other voices that see things in a more clear light. I hope the momentum continues to build.

11 sderotforever January 24, 2008 at 8:01 pm

Dear Observer,

I'm so glad to hear about the great Palestinian village of Sderot, stolen by Evil Joos! Please tell me more about its unique and fascinating history!

12 David January 24, 2008 at 8:55 pm

Sderot was built on top of the Palestinian village of Najd, which was cleansed of its inhabitants in 1948. So those "terrorists" launching rockets are attacking the people who took their homes.

You didn't really think it was "a country without a people," did you?

Lawrence of Cyberia had a nice piece on it recently–
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2007/10/qotw—sderot-a.html

In the future, a good site for researching any questions you might have about pre-Nakba Palestine is Palestine Remembered–
http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

13 Concerned January 24, 2008 at 11:58 pm

Nonsense. Palestine Remembered claims, with all sorts of details about Dunams owned and "ethnic cleansing" to authenticate Najd. But it's a complete fabrication. The photograph they show (as proof?)is of an irrigation ditch. Palestine remembered has used the same photo for alleged villages in Galil as well. What happened to the villages houses? What did they settlers use to eliminate them? Why are there no photographs of this place?
You have, it seems, fallen for the Big Lie.

14 Concerned January 25, 2008 at 12:05 am

And that other website (lawrenceofcyberia) says it was cleared of Palestinians on 13 May 1948 by the Israeli Negev Brigade– who expelled them to Gaza! There was no action in the Negev until that fall, and the Egyptian blockade wasn't broken until 1949! But I guess if you're making shit up about imaginary Palestinian villages you're unlikely to get the other details right.

15 Alana January 25, 2008 at 1:18 am

apparently "Concerned" does think it was a land without a people, just waiting for the Jews of europe. :)

16 Concerned January 25, 2008 at 1:21 am

Actually Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, Yemen, and Syria . ..

17 This is not to say, 'the battle is won.' January 25, 2008 at 1:50 am

This just reminded me of this, Roger Waters' Tide Is Turning, which boasts an apt lyric, 'A Billion Candles Burning.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvTvWJWeQ2g

18 This is not to say, 'the battle is won.' January 25, 2008 at 1:51 am

This just reminded me of this, Roger Waters' Tide Is Turning, which boasts an apt lyric, 'A Billion Candles Burning.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvTvWJWeQ2g

19 This is not to say, 'the battle is won.' January 25, 2008 at 1:52 am

This just reminded me of this, Roger Waters' Tide Is Turning, which boasts an apt lyric, 'A Billion Candles Burning.'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvTvWJWeQ2g

20 zed January 25, 2008 at 2:25 am

""Nonsense. Palestine Remembered claims, with all sorts of details about Dunams owned and "ethnic cleansing" to authenticate Najd. But it's a complete fabrication.""

I'm not sure what you are "Concerned" about, but it sure isn't the truth. If you want confirmation of the ethnic cleansing of Najd, all you have to do is read Israeli history, written from the archives of the IDF, and other Israeli government sources. For example, David Tal is a professor at Tel-Aviv University, specializing in military history. He's a mainstream Zionist, not a wild-eyed leftist. From his 2004 book, "War in Palestine, 1948:Strategy and Diplomacy",page 174:

"The Givati Brigade began its operations within the framework of Plan Dalet on 6 May and the Negev Brigade on the 10th. The Givati Brigade executed Operation Barak to consolidate Jewish control in the area around three key Arab locales-Yibna, Isdud, and Majdal-and to force the Arabs out of the villages that were attacked.16 Sucessfully executing this part of their missions, Givati conquered the villages of Bashshit, Bayt Daras, al-Batani-al-Sharqi, al-Maghar, Zarnuqa and al-Qubayba–some of which were outside the designated boundaries of the Jewish State–while forces of the Negev brigade took Kawkaba, Halayqat, Burayr, Najd and Simsim. The villagers fled in the face of the Jewish forces, and those who stayed were expelled."

Lest you think I am pulling this out my ass, just as you did your ignorant post, I will point you to this link to the book which is available in part on google books.
http://books.google.com/books?q=David+Tal&btnG=Search+Books
Check page 174

Palestine Remembered's credibility on this is affirmed by Israel's military records. And your credibility is presently in the toilet. Care to retract? Or is the IDF just another cog in the "fabrication" of the destruction of Najd in your fevered view?

So what happened to the houses of Najd and over 400 other Palestinian villages, you ask? They were destroyed on orders of the IDF, in order to prevent the villagers from returning to their homes. This is not denied by any historian in Israel, or frankly anyone with knowledge of Israel's real history, instead of the American fairy tales (which are the real "Big Lies"). Look up Plan Dalet.

21 Richard Silverstein January 25, 2008 at 3:36 am

The NYT notes that 12 Israelis have been killed by Qassams in six years. Not that this is acceptable. But I'd guess that perhaps 50-100 times the number of Gaza civilians have been killed in the same time period. All in the name of eradicating the threat of Qassams.

22 Alan January 25, 2008 at 9:10 am

Richard Silvestein – Are you condoning the use of collective punishment against the citizens of Sderot, but condemning the use of it against the citizens of Gaza? If the Palestinians had been more successful in killing more innocent civillians in Sderot or if the Israelis had been more successful in killing only the militants in Gaza would your position change?

23 LanceThruster January 25, 2008 at 11:43 am

"Palestine Remembered" does indeed use Israeli historical sources in that as far as the MSM goes, any Arab source is questioned as being unreliable (try indicating that Zionists sources might be unreliable on the official narrative they push and see what sort of response you get).

A great overview on just what was taking place in 1949 is addressed here:

"Looting, Looting, and More Looting"

As quoted from "1949, The First Israelis" (p. 68-91)

By the Israeli historian-journalist Tom Segev.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story680.html

24 David January 25, 2008 at 11:48 am

I appreciate Zed's source citation here, as I think we Zionists need to face certain facts. There was intense ethnic cleansing and collective punishment in 47-49. I think Tal's book is an excellent source because it is, roughly, Zionist, and actually makes a pretty good case for why that expulsions were necessary.

25 LanceThruster January 25, 2008 at 11:55 am

One other thing about the claim at many Zionist sites that the fact that Israel pulled out and yet Gazans still fire rockets means the Israelis are no longer aggressors. The siege by Israel is still in effect, it's just outside of the borders now instead of from within (except whenever they feel like making incursions with whatever weaponry they feel is called for).

Imagine the furor from the Israelis if their airspace was violated with impunity (often for sheer harassment effect), their movement and commerce was restricted, their borders were under the complete control of outside entities, and they were subjected to collective punishment at the whims of a neighboring state; all the while being denied their own statehood until that time that they "shape up" (as defined by a constantly moving goalpost).

If the asymetrical warfare conditions were inverted, I'd hazard a guess that they'd get pretty creative with their countermoves as well.

26 J.E.Dundee January 25, 2008 at 12:04 pm

As noted above, in the past 6 years, 12 people in Israel have been killed by the rockets which receive much US media coverage. Little mention is made of the large numbers of Palestinian civilians (over 3000, including over 800 children) killed by Israelis since 2000. Moreover, only the 12 in Israel are defined as being killed by "terrorists."

27 Alana January 25, 2008 at 1:47 pm

I found the comments over at LanceThruster's link to the Huffington Post article on Gaza amazing. The mainstream "left" (Huffington, DailyKos, etc.) has never felt comfortable talking about Israel (and of course NEVER about Jewishness), but that seems to be changing. There seems to be a lot of awareness of what's going on, and a lot of anger — even if the comments were edited.

Very encouraging.

28 David January 25, 2008 at 2:12 pm

"The mainstream "left" (Huffington, DailyKos, etc.) has never felt comfortable talking about Israel (and of course NEVER about Jewishness), but that seems to be changing."

Jewishness? Oh no, I am so ashamed! Is this what we did? They're going to start talking about us? Why oh why can't Israel just be nicer to those who are arranging its annihilation? Every Jews stand up for themselves it makes me so scared! I literally shake with fear at the thought of Jews shooting rather than being shot! We belong on the barrel side of the gun! That's our history, it's our destiny! Can't they see that? The Gentiles understand it–why oh why can't we!!!!????
Gosh, and all you assholes keep telling me that Israel and Jews are two separate issues! Who to believe? Oy Vey!

29 Alana January 25, 2008 at 2:31 pm

"Israel and Jews are two separate issues!"

I'm sorry to have shocked you, but Israel does call itself "The Jewish State" after all. And Zionism's ideological roots have to located somewhere. And regardless of what it emerged from, certainly support for it is an important part of today's Jewish identity.

Perhaps you will let us discuss Jewishness just as much as we discuss Islam and "Islamofascism". No more, but no less.

30 Joshua Crawford January 25, 2008 at 3:27 pm

Did someone say Islamists?

So the Brits sentenced Samina Malik, a 23 year-old Muslim woman, to nine months of probation for the crime of… writing a poem. But what a poem!

Here it is:

How to Behead
It’s not as messy or hard as some may think.

It’s all about the flow of the wrist.

Sharpen the knife to its maximum.

And before you begin to cut the flesh.

Tilt the fool’s head to its left.

Saw the knife back and forth.

No doubt the punk will twitch and scream.

But ignore the donkey’s ass.

And continue to slice back and forth.

La la la. Islam means peace. Now to be fair the Brits, they didn’t exactly arrest this lovely young woman for writing a poem. They came down on her for “possessing records likely to be used in an act of terrorism,” which included “an al-Qaida manual, a booklet on mujahedeen poisons and bomb-making instructions.” And guess what? This poetess of peace worked at London’s Heathrow Airport as a shop assistant, and was familiar with security procedures designed to protect heathen donkeys from, oh, murderous Muslim radicals and other terrorists.

The poem was read on NPR this morning in a piece about the emergence in Britain of “militant Islamist feminism”—which makes about as much sense as “radical gay heterosexuality.” When the poem was read I about choked on my toast. I fly into Heathrow now and then and there are always lots of women working in headscarves and I suppress my… well, I suppress my worst impulses. They’re in the West, I tell myself, they’ve immigrated for a reason, they’ve embraced Western values, and the nice woman in the headscarf selling me my International Herald Tribune at Heathrow isn’t thinking about sawing off my pole-smoking, beer-swilling, apostate head.* (The charming and talented Ms. Malik, however, “spent much of her time at work writing about her desire for martyrdom,” according to NPR.) They’re here, they’ve immigrated, they’re used to us!

But when I heard this next bit on the radio, well, I made up my mind to fly into Shannon next time I go to Europe:

Recent polls have shown that as many as four in 10 British Muslims want Sharia, the Islamic law, applied in Muslim-populated areas of Britain.
Sharia, which is practiced in many parts of the Islamic world, is a religious code of living. But it also specifies stoning and amputation as normal punishment for some crimes.

Sharia also specifies the beheading as “normal punishment” for homosexual acts.**

La la la. Islam means peace.

As much as I hate to sound like a member of the National Front… gee… I just gotta say this: There’s no shortage of backwards, fucked up, unpleasant shitholes where Sharia is practiced. If someone longs to live under Sharia, why the fuck would that someone emigrate to Europe or remain in Europe? Why not emigrate to, say, Pakistan or Iran or Saudi Arabia or Sudan or Nigeria or a whole host of islands in Indonesia? If you long to attend public amputations and beheadings, if you think the victims of raped should be imprisoned and whipped, what the fuck are you doing in Britain? Or the Netherlands? Or Belgium? Or France? Or Germany? Wanna live under Sharia? Well, get thee to a Sharia-enforcing shithole already.

I’ll be accused of being xenophobic, of course, for typing what any sensible person thought to him or herself listening to NPR this morning. I am not xenophobic. Or Islamophobic—unless being afraid of particular Muslims, like Ms. Malik, makes one Islamophobic.***

One of the things I love most about the good, ol’ US of A and thoroughly modern Europe—and miss most living here in Seattle—is the ethnic, racial, and religious diversity. But the price of admission to a pluralistic, multi-ethnic society has to be… a desire to live in that place. And a desire to live and let live, and a certain base-level tolerance for people that look, pray, and fuck differently than you do. You should, of course, be free to impose Sharia on yourself and yourself alone (not your daughters, for instance), just as Christians and Jews should be free to impose the most conservative interpretations of their faiths on themselves alone.

And if you can’t hack that…. if you can’t handle pluralism… if you hate us punks and donkeys and fools much… and if you long for Sharia so terribly… then get the fuck out.

••••••••••••••••••••••

* I don’t have this reaction when I see women in headscarves in American airports—all of that here-in-the-West-for-a-reason actually applies to American Muslims, it seems. (Someone please inform the Department of Homeland Security.)

** Yes, there’s some “kill the homos” crap in the Bible, but no predominantly Christian states are executing homosexuals.

*** I’m afraid of some Muslims. But I’m afraid of some Christians, some Jews, some men, some women, some of my relatives, and many, many homosexuals too. Does this make me Christophobic, Jewophobic, guyophobic, girlophobic, uncleophobic, and homophobic as well?

Posted by: SJF | January 25, 2008 at 11:57 AM

31 LanceThruster January 25, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Before anyone gets too high and mighty over whose theological/cultural views are primitive and whose are not, look at how discussion of what to do with a "moser" is treated here (it can be punishable by death).

http://www.forward.com/articles/12542/

"Indeed, the question of Kasirer — the FBI witness who turned state’s evidence against the Hasidic rebbe in exchange for a lighter sentence on previous fraud charges stemming from his health care business — seems to be weighing most heavily on people’s minds, according to Los Angeles rabbis interviewed by the Forward. In traditional Jewish law, if a Jew reports another Jew to the government, he is deemed a moser, and in some interpretations, a moser’s actions are punishable by death."

32 anon January 25, 2008 at 3:57 pm

"joshua crawford" LOL

is it a good sign or bad, when jews pick gentile names to post under? i suppose you could argue it implies some embarrassment at continual tribalist special pleading.

33 Moishe Gefilteberg January 25, 2008 at 4:15 pm

is it a good sign or bad, when jews pick names such as "anon" to post under?

34 Moishe January 25, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Lance – Can you tell us about any honor killings or "moser" killings that have gone on in the USA?

I'm really interested. How many American Jews do you think ever heard the word Moser before, much less knew what it meant, much less thought it anything but a relic of the past?

35 anon January 25, 2008 at 4:41 pm

you're asking the right questions moishe/joshua. now don't forget them when it comes to people other than jews.

36 Alana January 25, 2008 at 7:29 pm

Actually, Moishe, according to the Forward article the big issue on the mind off the community was the fact that one of the tribe informed on them — even more than any alleged criminality of the grand rabbi. So someone must have heard about the concept, even if a different word was used.

37 LanceThruster January 25, 2008 at 9:54 pm

Moishe – Many of the Zionist concepts *should* be relics of the past but aren't (as should any number of backward cultural concepts from various other groups). Why should it only be about numbers? Why should we only be concerned with the most outward expressions of this violence and control? You don't think Israelis or even Jews in the right circumstances to use extreme measures to send a message to the rest?

The article spoke of how to go about ostracizing this person and his family (for exposing for whatever reason criminal behavior). Sometimes it is easier to keep the community in line (and better PR) to use punishments and sanctions short of the ultimate price. That is the sort of thing being discussed on Philip's site. Apparently you want to use the worst examples of a group you wish to demonize, while ignoring those instances that might paint a group you support in a less than flattering light.

38 Michael Blaine January 25, 2008 at 10:32 pm

"I believe that something has changed: Arabs are being treated as human beings in our press."

They certainly were not treated as such in the above comments by Ashley.

Michael Blaine
http://www.rudelystamped.blogspot.com

39 Michael Blaine January 25, 2008 at 10:39 pm

I'm sorry, in the comments by Ashley in the MIT post.

MB

40 Moishe January 25, 2008 at 11:21 pm

"Apparently you want to use the worst examples of a group you wish to demonize, while ignoring those instances that might paint a group you support in a less than flattering light."

Lance – Please tell me what you are talking about here. You are describing exactly what you did vis-a-vis Jews in your moser example, yet you are accusing me of it. Where did I say anything about any other group, much less demonize them?

Thank you.

41 Truthseeker January 25, 2008 at 11:50 pm

Yeah, the nice thing about assholes like Lance (and Phil!) is that, though they may be very clever in their manipulation of facts, psychologically they are children. They almost always ascribe to their enemies all of their own weaknesses (e.g., The Jews are genocidal, they want to kill all the Palestinians).

42 delia ruhe January 26, 2008 at 1:32 am

Re: the victims of rockets from Gaza

Back in 2006, Tony Judt warned that Israel's victim discourse was wearing especially thin–that there were more and more Americans who were beginning to think of Israeli casualties as merely collateral damage in the Palestinians' struggle for freedom and justice. I couldn't see it myself back then. Too many students were still getting through my lectures on the Middle East conflict by staring at their shoes. This year, I'm getting feedback. So maybe things are changing. This week, they all appeared quite pleased that the Gazans had busted out and gone shopping.

43 LanceThruster January 26, 2008 at 1:00 pm

"truthseeker" – I'll answer your claim first as it is easiest to address. The Israelis are masters of projection in that almost every statement by them can be translated by the "180 rule." Just reverse the statement (ex. "the Palestinians cannot be trusted to keep their agreements") and the truth is revealed.

Moishe – In your challenge you seemed to be taking the position that cultural/religious practices such as sharia mean that Islam/Muslims are uncivilized. If that was not your point; my mistake. My point is that every religious creed has methodologies in place to keep adherents in line. Far from demonizing a particular group, I was pointing out the simularities inherent in religious doctrines and the people's interpretations of such. Transgressions are handled as the individual or group entity committing the act deems appropriate whether an honor killing, murder (as with abortion doctors), ex-communication, ostracism, or whatever.

44 Aqib January 26, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Mr. LanceThruster,

What methodologies are in place in your culture to keep people in line?

45 LanceThruster January 26, 2008 at 3:46 pm

Aqib – I am an American atheist so I like to think reason and rationality do (as well as the political process; flawed as it is). We have no "sacred texts" so we can't make an appeal to "revealed kinowledge." Instead, we try to operate within the framework of a largely (for now) secular society and try to balance protection of the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Those claiming dictators imposing atheism is somehow an actual tenet of non-belief are mistaken. I reject the beliefs of Islam just as I do those of Judaism/Xianity. That does not mean that I must turn my back on the injustices done to the Palestinians. A large part of my understanding of Zionism came after 9/11 and from the writings of some pretty amazing "Jewish" humanist universalists.

46 Aqib January 26, 2008 at 6:19 pm

Mr. LanceThruster,

Thank you for your response. May the Peace be upon You, and Allah's Mercy and Blessings.

Please see http://convertingtoislam.com/

Allah is the supporter of those who believe. He leads them out from darknesses into the Light. As for the unbelievers – their supporters are their false gods. They lead them out of the Light into darknesses. Those are the heirs of the Hell; they will abide therein eternally.

[The Holy Qur'an, Surah 2:257]

47 LanceThruster January 26, 2008 at 7:16 pm

Aqib – While I thank you for the sincerity behind your well wishes and blessings, I will pass on your invitation to Islam. My friends at the ummah.com forum have referred me to that particular page before (as well as ones like it) and I have seen nothing in any of them that would lead me to think that Islam is of Divine origin.

I invite you to examine the precepts of "A Secular Humanist Declaration" – http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=declaration

48 Aqib January 26, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Thank you for sharing your link to your religion, but Islam is a perfect religion which provides solution to every problem and answer to every question. As the word 'Islam' means 'peace', it is effectively the religion of every human who likes peace. Peace within a human being, peace of mind, peace at home, peace in the society, and peace in the world. In other words Islam is a way of achieving peace by submitting to the Will of God.

In the name of ALLAH, the Most compassionate, the Most Merciful, I hope that you will reconsider for your own good.

"This day the unbelievers have given up all hope of your religion. Yet fear them not;
fear only Me. This day I have perfected your
religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen Islam as your religion."
[The Holy Quran, Surah 5:3]

49 LancetThruster January 26, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Aqib – Secular Humanism is not a religion by any practical definition, and I was not inviting you to examine it in order to convert you but rather to allow you to have some framework for understanding what I believe.

And from the very link you provided, it appears that my unbelief is from Allah himself (provided that one accepts the Quran as the perfect word of God in the first place).

[excerpt]

The 2nd Surah of the Holy Qur’an

AL-BAQARA (The Cow)

In the name of Allah; the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful.

6. Verily, as for those who disbelieve, it is alike whether you warn them or not, they will not accept faith.

7. Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and a grievous chastisement awaits them.

[Chapter 2:6-7]

[end excerpt]

Why would you try to unseal what Allah has sealed?

As I said, I even appreciate the sincerity of your invitation to Islam ("for [my] own good"). At the ummah.com forum, I took some challenge where my denial of Allah was supposed to bring some sort of doom upon me but after no such thing happened (4 years and counting I think) they went to the fallback position of the bad things would come after I died.

50 AQIB January 26, 2008 at 11:17 pm

OK ARROGANT MR. LANCETHRUSTER – ISLAM IS BASED ON THE TRUE PATH TO JANNAH! AND YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THIS, BECAUSE YOU DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE TRUTH. YOU KNOW ISLAM IS THE TRUTH, BUT YOU CAN'T ADMIT IT BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO CLOSED. TOO SEALED. INSHALLAH YOU WILL BECOME A MUSLIM, IF NOT, THAN YOU CAN TAKE A TRIP TO HELL, BECAUSE YOUR LIFE IS NOT BASED ON TRUTH, BUT ON BAD THINGS LIKE ADULTRY, DRINKING, TALKING BAD ABOUT OTHERS, AND MORE SINFUL THINGS. LOOK AT YOURSELF. THE JEWISH PEOPLE SPREAD RUMORS ABOUT US, AND YOU ALL BELIEVE THE JEWS. THEY ARE LIARS, DO NOT BE BY THEIR SIDE. THEY DO NOT LIKE ISLAM BECAUSE WE HAVE THE TRUTH IN OUR HANDS. YOU ONLY HAVE ONE CHANCE IN LIFE, SO READ MORE ABOUT THE QURAN AND ISLAM. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE, THEN ITS A BIG MISTAKE, BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO YOU ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT. YOU WILL SUFFER FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE IN THIS LIFE AND IN THIS WORLD. YOU ANGERED ALLAH (GOD) THE REAL GOD WHO GAVE US THE TRUTH!. DO NOT DENY THE FACT THAT WE HAVE THE TRUTH IN OUR HANDS, MR. LANCETHRUSTER! COME TO ISLAM! THIS IS A SERIOUS SITUATION. TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT IS AROUND YOU. YOU WILL NOT BE SEEING IT AGAIN, BUT YOU WILL BE SEEING HELL AND YOU WOULDN'T ENJOY IT.

PLEASE GO TO HTTP://WWW.CONVERTINGTOISLAM.COM

SALAM,
AQIB AL-ASLAM

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