The Greenwich Library has overturned its miserable decision re the If Americans Knew event. The people of Greenwich apparently rose up against the Israel lobby. America is redeemed. I’m feeling somewhat sheepish about my stemwinder on the topic this a.m….
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Phil writes: I'm feeling somewhat sheepish about my stemwinder on the topic this a.m….
Whoa…Phil…I respect your work. I don’t yet know if you are correct — reading your comments create a cognitive dissonance — but I do believe more and more people are relying on your work to make assumptions in their analysis. More broadly speaking, if you are wrong about W and M, then others who rely in part on you are as well. So if you ever decide you are wrong about W and M, I hope you’ll say so…and muy pronto.
As for my comment re: your early am post, I simply wanted to try to rattle your cage with some inflammatory (unverified) facts. It’s a different approach. No biggie. Also, I am no historian (perhaps I spent too much time at 33 Dunster!).
That said…with all due respect…I hope you will re-consider your position on another subject — the Armenian genocide resolution. Here’s why. Passage of such a resolution at this time would infuriate Turkey and, therefore, possibly hurt US military operations in Iraq and even place US soldiers at greater risk. Maybe the resolution should pass, but I am not sure if now is the time because of the Iraqi nightmare. Let’s get our troops home first.
A proposal from President Nicolas Sarkozy that French 10-year-old pupils should be entrusted with the memory of Jewish children who were murdered by the Nazis set off an outcry among psychologists, parents and the political left.
In a speech on Wednesday to the annual dinner of CRIF, the umbrella body of Jewish organizations in France, Sarkozy said that from the start of the next academic year pupils in their last year of primary school should be "entrusted with the memory of one of the 11,000 French children who fell victim to the Holocaust."
"Nothing is more moving for a child than the story of a child his own age, who had the same games, the same joys and the same hopes as him," Sarkozy said.
Education Minister Xavier Darcos explained that every child will be given the name of a Jewish deportee and "carry out a little investigation on their family, surroundings and the circumstances in which the child disappeared."
He said it would "create an identification between a child of today and one of the same age who was deported and gassed."
"This personal, emotional link will be the basis for their studies," Darcos added.
The minister said he came to the idea after he saw a postal card featuring the children of Izieu in September 1943. "One year later they were gassed."
But an alliance of critics immediately poured scorn on the idea, accusing Sarkozy of usurping history, failing to understand the psychological impact on children, and stirring up resentment among other sectors of society.
"I am totally against the idea that individual children should be made to carry this kind of burden. They are far too young at that age. They're not ready," said child psychiatrist Frederic Kochman.
"Linking a child so intimately with a partner who is dead, and whose short life they can never understand, can only have harmful effects on his or her development," said the association Children of the World.
"The president should not turn into a kind of preacher, as he is doing now," said left-wing Senator Jean-Luc Melenchon. Centrist MP Francois Bayrou predicted "a clash between France's values and those of Nicolas Sarkozy."
"I don't think we can impose remembrance," former Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin said. Having pupils "adopt" a Holocaust victim was "something very heavy to carry around."
Some 75,000 Jews were deported from Nazi-occupied France in World War II, in most cases with the active cooperation of the French authorities. Nearly all died in the extermination camps at Auschwitz and elswhere.
Even many who support greater awareness of the Holocaust said the president's idea was ill-thought out and could even provoke an unwanted backlash.
"Some communities already think the Republic doesn't take sufficient account of their suffering: for example, black Caribbeans who want greater recognition of the tragedy of slavery, or Armenians concerning their own genocide," said François Puppi, mayor of the Paris suburb of Sarcelles.
For Pascal Bruckner, a left-wing philosopher who backed Sarkozy in last year's election, his idea smacks of "the tyranny of repentance" and "adds nothing except pathos."
"Young people have been given their fill of the Holocaust for years and years, and it hasn't stopped the rise of anti-Semitism in the suburbs … This is a dangerous initiative which is only going to add to the idea that there's one rule for the Jews. Compassion can be dangerous," he said.
Klarsfeld and Hollande support the idea
Richard Preasquier, head of CRIF, was quoted as saying that he knew that the president would make a proposal on Holocaust teaching "but that's al", he said, stressing that the Jewish community had not made any demand.
Sarkozy won support from Serge Klarsfeld, the lawyer and Jewish historian who has done more than anyone to keep the names of French Holocaust victims in the collective memory.
"It's not a question of some morbid identification with a dead child. It's an act of vigilance … It's important that today's children know that there were children of their own age and background who were deported, and it's important that these be named," he said.
Socialist Party leader Francois Hollande also backed the initiative, but his colleague former minister Pierre Moscovici said it was "a false good idea which brings with it much that is psychologically and educationally dangerous."
"It is typical Sarkozy — a man with plenty of impulse and sometimes not much reflection," he said.
The French president recently triggered a row over religion by stressing the importance of faith in the public sphere.
He angered secularists with repeated praise for faith and references to France’s Christian roots, and in his speech to CRIF he said that the violence and wars of the 20th century were due to an "absence of God."
He stated that people of faith have a hope and purpose missing in modern society due to the "end of ideology" after the Cold War and the spread of disillusionment in consumer society.
Better that you investigate the story, than to presume what occurred.
One thing that I find very distressing about your blog Phil, is that you RARELY comment on the content of the conflict.
The subject of your blurbs is nearly always the buzz, who's who.
Whereas what needs to happen in the world is education NOT who is on who's side.
Richard Witty
I agree with you completely. But I want to make one comment about Phil — his comments constitute, at least from what I can tell so far, "declarations against interest". Typically, such comments are more reliable than "declarations for one's interest". Or at least the comments make the person more credible. What does Phil have to gain by all of this?
That said, maybe there are reasons why Phil is taking this stance and such reasons still haven't come to light. But rest assured, lots of people — including those in the Jewish Am. community — are stuggling with our foreign policy and simply searching to do what's right. I think you are as well at some level, although it appears to run counter to the views of many.
But you are right. We must investigate. That's probably my last comment.
Phil is no more anti-Jewish than any American who has been against the Iraq War from its inception.
1. Focusing on the genocide of Armenians while ignoring Zionist and Soviet Ashkenazi genocidalism and
2. refraining from addressing genocide of Muslim populations in the Balkans and in the Caucasus that provided context
essentially turns genocide discourse into anti-Turk, anti-Arab, anti-Muslim and anti-Palestinian propaganda.
http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/10/more-jewish-genocide-denial.html
We either talk about all genocides or none qua genocide.
Because the Holoexaleipsis was planned in cold-blood by people that had no history of contact with the native Palestinian population and because it continues before our eyes, the Holoexaleipsis should be taken as the archetypal genocide.
Each French 10 year olds should learn to identify with a Palestinian child. Not only will they come to understand Zionist crime in Palestine, but they may gain some insights into the evils of the French colonial empire from which Holocaust studies would distract just as USA Holocaust religion distracts from the crimes that the USA committed against African and native Americans and in which the USA is carrying out or assisting in Palestine, Iraq and throughout the Arab and Islamic world.
"Phil is no more anti-Jewish than any American who has been against the Iraq War from its inception. "
Where did that come from?
Isn't recognizing the Armenian genocide a step in the direction of recognizing all genocides? And it's moving away from the US policy of pandering to the Israel lobby and it's Turkish partner in crime.
Jeez, you see no mirror in the American occupation of Iraq and the Israeli occupation?
For the appearance of anti-Arab, anti-Muslim, anti-Turk, and anti-Palestine in the politics of genocide discourse take a look at "Is the Holocaust Unique?, Perspectives on Comparative Genocide, [Second Edition]," edited by Rosenbaum, Alan S.
The 19th genocides of Muslims in the Balkans and the Caucasus are absent as is the ongoing genocide of Palestinians.
To be fair, the Soviet genocide of Russian Germans was left out as well, and that may relate to the Jewish ancestry of the architects of that genocide.
Overall, genocide discourse is seriously broken, and it is not completely unreasonable for Turkey to draw a line in the sand over the issue.
Why do you exagerate so, Joachim?
Genocide?
How?
It was your (and others like you) steam winders from months past that caused the decision today.
You don't need to apologize or turn it down. You need to turn it up.
Kudos to The One David for breaking the news about the existence of a new prime meridian in american Greenwich, one who marks the spot where the zionist thought police began to be defeated.
More good deeds from our ever-vigilant Zionist comrades–
"Catholic University abruptly canceled an 11-part lecture series, "Building Catholic Communities," on Monday, after the Southern Poverty Law Center complained that two of the scheduled lecturers are anti-Semites."
"These are not the Latin Mass traditionalists," Mr. Potok said. "These are the people who reject Vatican II reforms. They are out of [actor Mel Gibson's father] Hutton Gibson's world, in saying that the Jews are destroying the world."
http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080213/NATION/32490051/1002/NATION&template=printart
Here's a description of the offending symposium (Richard Witty, look away.)–
about the Catholic University cancellation, one of the "antisemitic" speakers was John Sharpe, who edited the book "Neo-conned" which looked at the Iraq war from the perspective of Catholic just war theory, and which openly discussed who were the voices pushing for it.
According to the Last Ditch site, all it took to make C.U, cave was as single phone call from the SPLC.
When victims rule.
Last update – 11:33 16/02/2008
Report: Some suspects in Mughniyah death are Arab security officials
By Yoav Stern, Haaretz Correspondent, and The Associated Press
Tags: Imad Mughniyah, Walid Moallem
Syrian investigators probing the assassination of Hezbollah terror chief Imad Mughniyah suspect that "official security organizations operating in Arab nations" may have been involved in the incident, Hezbollah-affiliated Lebanese newspaper "Al-Akhbar" reported Saturday.
Mughniyah, the deputy secretary general of the Lebanese-based guerilla group Hezbollah, was killed in a blast in an upscale Damascus neighborhood late Tuesday.
"Al Akhbar" reported that several of the suspects arrested in connection to the killing were not civilians. On Friday, a Lebanese source said that the majority of the suspects detained by Syria in connection to the assassination were Palestinians.
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The report also said the investigation revealed that Mughniyah had been killed from a blast originating from a car bomb nearby, and not from a bomb planted in the vehicle he was occupying, as originally believed. The investigation revealed that the car bomb had been detonated remotely as Mughniyah walked past.
Lebanese security officials have identified the owners of the vehicle that exploded, the report said. The reason why Mughniyah was in Damascus at the time of his death is still unclear.
"The investigations are being kept in full confidentiality due to considerations regarding the Mughniyah's location when he succumbed to an ambush," the Lebanese newspaper said.
The newspaper also said that Lebanese officials believe a serious military confrontation with Israel will erupt in the near future. This possibility has been raised in intensive discussions being held between Hezbollah officials and Iranian and Syrian officials. The various militant Palestinian organizations have also declared a state of high alert, the paper concluded.
Meanwhile Saturday, another Lebanese publication, "Al-Sapir," reported that Hezbollah had deployed 50,000 activists in southern Lebanon, which borders Israel, in anticipation of a military confrontation. The organization also evacuated all buildings in the area designated for social or political activity, according to the report.
On Friday, a Lebanese source said that a joint Syrian-Iranian investigation into the assassination was well under way, and suspects have been arrested in the Syrian capital.
The suspects arrested in connection to the killing have been mostly Palestinians residing in Syria, the Lebanese source said.
Hezbollah and its main backer Iran have accused Israel of killing Mughniyah, who was also among the United States' most wanted men. Israel has denied any involvement.
The source added that Hezbollah has appointed a successor to Mughniyah. "A successor to Imad Mughniyah has been appointed, which is natural," said the source, who requested anonymity. "That's how Hezbollah works, they move quickly to choose successors of fallen leaders."
The source said the appointment was made hours after the announcement of Mughniyah's death in a car bomb in Damascus on Tuesday. He did not identify the successor, but said he was not one of the two names being circulated in the Israeli media.
Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki agreed with Syrian officials during a visit to Damascus on Thursday to set up a joint team to investigate the killing, Mottaki's deputy Alireza Sheik-Attar said on Friday.
Attar, speaking during Friday prayers, said that the team would investigate the circumstances surrounding the car bombing in Damascus, in order to "discover the identities of those who carried out this filthy crime."
Also Friday, "Al-Akhbar" reported that Hezbollah investigators would also launch a probe into the incident. According to the report, there has been progress in the investigation.
The newspaper also reported "hysteria in Tel Aviv," referring to the travel advisory issued to Israeli citizens traveling abroad by the Counter-Terrorism Bureau. On Thursday, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah blamed Israel for the assassination and vowed to retaliate.
Iranian FM meets with Hamas, Islamic Jihad in Damascus
Mottaki held separate Friday meetings at the Iranian Embassy with Damascus-based Hamas political leader Khaled Meshal and Islamic Jihad chief Ramadan Abdullah Shallah, said the Iranian officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.
Later in the day, Mottaki held a one-hour meeting with Syrian Vice President Farouk al-Sharaa to discuss the Mughniyah assassination.
"We discussed the terrorist crime that led to the martyrdom of one of the most senior commanders in the Lebanese Islamic Resistance (Hezbollah), martyr Imad Mughniyah," Mottaki told reporters after his meeting with al-Sharaa.
Mottaki also discussed Mughniyah's death with Syrian President Bashar Assad on Thursday, accusing Israel of retaliating for its "losses" in the 2006 Second Lebanon War.
The Iranian foreign minister said he "imagined it could exact a heavy price by assassinating one leader of the Lebanese resistance."
Mottaki flew to Damascus on Thursday from Lebanon, where he attended Mughniyah's funeral and offered condolences to the man's family and associates. Underlining Iran's close ties to Shiite Hezbollah, Mottaki sat between Mughniyah's father and a senior Hezbollah official.
Moallem: Perpetrators to be found soon
On Thursday, Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem said investigations were underway into who was behind the car bomb that killed Mughniyah. He added that he expected the perpetrators to be found soon.
"Syrian security forces are continuing investigations into this terrorist crime and we hope you will hear results soon," Moallem said at a joint press conference with Mottaki. "We as a state will show with full proof the party involved in this crime and who stands behind them."
Moallem said those who killed Mughniyah "assassinated any attempt to revive the peace process," hinting for the first time that Israel might be involved.
Meshal said Thursday that Mughniyah's death would not deter the militant Palestinian group from continuing its resistance against Israel.
"We accept the challenge and we are not afraid at all," said Meshal at a wake for Mughniyah at a Palestinian refugee camp near Damascus.
During Friday prayers in Baghdad, Sheik Suhail al-Eqabi read worshippers a statement that was issued Thursday by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr regarding Mughniyah's death: "The dirty hands have stretched out to get [Mughniyah] and he was sent to paradise where he became a martyr of world Islamic resistance."
Al-Sadr on Thursday declared a three-day mourning period for the death of Mughniyah.
http://www.splcenter.org/
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp
Just for reference on the Southern Poverty Law Center.
Included in its list of hate groups are
Nation of Islam
New Black Panther Party
Jewish Defense League
You may disagree.
There is an old video of Alan Dershowitz arguing with Meyer Kahane, founder of the Jewish Defense League, on You Tube.
While you may criticize Dershowitz, he also had the balls to confront the JDL.
Karin Friedemann (wife of your pal Joachim Martello) of the Massachusetts Green-Rainbow Party and the Ron Paul campaign there is now sending out Neo-Nazi agitprop from link to
.
— In wvns@yahoogroups.com, "World View" wrote:
63 YEARS AGO
DRESDEN � A Real Holocaust
By GEORGE T. PARKER
wvns-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
NEWS ARCHIVE IS OPEN TO PUBLIC VIEW
wvns-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
— End forwarded message —
Yes Witty, It takes a lot of balls to criticize a terrorist (ADL) organization plotting to blow up a U.S. Congressman. WTF is wrong with you. And everyone else. Spit out a cup of Starbuck's Ethnic Cleansing Blend On March 16, 2008, the 5th anniversity of Rachel Corries (Seattles Best) murder in Gaza.
Fringe Watch: John Sharpe's Legion of St. Louis
In our last entry we revealed the disturbing extremist connections of John Sharpe's IHS Press, publisher of two anti-war books: Neo-Conned and Neo-Conned …
fringewatcher.blogspot.com/2005/12/john-sharpes-legion-of-st-louis.html – 40k – Cached – Similar pages – Note this
Fringe Watch: John Sharpe's Ties to Holland and Fiore
Our last post looked at the anti-Semitic propaganda of John Sharpe, whose IHS Press has published two anti-war books: Neo-Conned and Neo-Conned Again!, …
fringewatcher.blogspot.com/2005/12/john-sharpes-ties-to-holland-and-fiore.html – 40k – Cached – Similar pages – Note this
More results from fringewatcher.blogspot.com »
Against The Grain
In September 2001, John Sharpe and Derek Holland founded IHS Press, …. Another friend urged me to write John Sharpe and IHS Press regarding these …
www.ratzingerfanclub.com/blog/2006/02/ihs-press-potential-fascist.html
Yes Witty, It takes a lot of balls to criticize a terrorist (ADL) organization plotting to blow up a U.S. Congressman.
Nimwit, that was the JDL.
We have to remember that in Richard Witty's mind (sic) it takes a lot of balls to criticize ANYONE who is Jewish, because of the Holocaust™.
Excuse me jerk-off, sometimes I get my racist Jewish organizations confused.
Sorry, I meant jerkoffski.
The only sad thing about Dresden is that it wasn't repeated in every German city.
http://www.adl.org/
What do you find untrue or objectionable, in fact?
M&W said that the Lobby hurts our society by crippling open discussion about Israel. The subject of this thread is an example of them attempting to do exactly that.
This is not a good time for you to bring up your hostility to the Israel Lobby book.
The authors advocate reforming the relationship between Israel and the US, noting that it is permanent, social, economic, religious, commonly democratic institutions, etc.
The advocates of the book (most of whom have never read it), hate that the US has a relationship with Israel (Americans and Israelis, US and Israeli governments).
To the extent that they seek to sever that, they are engaging in fantasy and/or racism.
The authors or publisher encouraged that hate-potential by the title, and by editorial equations that periodically named names then stopped and instead applied a generalization.
One purpose of the generalization (naming all advocate groups that include any element of Israeli safety as "THE Israel lobby"), is to functionally inhibit the efforts at education and then reform, in favor of more intrusive efforts like boycotts (that necessarily involve collective punishment, in the name of opposing collective punishment).
Richard: Look at what you just wrote. Obviously you love to generalize, read people's minds and motives. The problem is others can do that too. Did you read the 100 pages or so of footnotes? What book would you recommend?
Charles,
Do you want to talk about the book itself, or the effect of the book and the use of its content and particularly its title?
DRESDEN — A Real Holocaust
By GEORGE T. PARKER
Just for the record practically my whole family in Poland was killed in fighting the German Nazis. It is one of the reasons I lost all tolerance for Zionism once I realized it was ethnic Ashkenazi Nazism.
My wife posts what she wants to her list.
She grew up in this Jewish enclave in the Midwest, came to a realization how evil Zionism really is, and then began to get in touch with German roots.
Avrum Burg did then same thing albeit 20 years later.
The Parket article has been around on the net for a long time, and does not originate with The New Order, which is a sort of fake Neo-Nazi group, whose members know very little about Nazi ideology.
It maintains a fairly good archive of articles that have been expunged from their original sources including The Forward and Haaretz.
I occasionally follow The New Order's rants because I keep track of such groups.
The Dresden article is worthwhile to read because Americans need to learn that America and the UK committed wartime atrocities as bad as or worse than those of Germany during WW2.
We Americans fought dirty then and still do.
We were allied with Stalin, who was by any objective standard a worse monster than Hitler.
And it is worthwhile to note that the German Nazis would at any time have probably let Jews go that were under Nazi rule if the USA and the UK had been willing to negotiate the issue. In contrast, if Stalin slated a group for extermination that group was dead without reprieve.
Why did the USA and the UK refuse to deal with Nazi Germany on the matter of Jews?
Probably mostly because senior government officials in both the USA and the UK were quite aware how Jewish and how evil the Soviet elite really was.
As much as some US and UK government officials may have disdained Jews, neither government used their information to whip up popular hostility toward their own Jewish citizens.
As for my wife's disdain for the Gay political agenda, a lot of people that have looked at Gay activism with regard to the ME agree with her that it is being used to demonize Arabs and Muslims in a sort of Western imperialistic chauvinism.
Massad discussed some of these issues from the standpoint of intellectual history in his recent talk at Harvard — link to eaazi.blogspot.com
.
Karin probably agrees with me that Somerville Mayor Curtatone is just another political shabbesgoy that serves "Judonia." (See link to members.aol.com
.)
Even though Somerville Mayor Curtatone is married and has a child, he has a very annoying gay style that really does remind one of former NJ governor McGreevey.
For Witty: Are you really so ignorant of everything Jewish or do you simply lie?
During the 19th century, as the Ottoman Empire withdrew, Muslim populations throughout the Balkans were either uprooted or simply killed, and a similar process took place as the Russian Empire expanded into the Caucasus and into Central Asia.
All such actions corresponded to genocide under the current international definition, and it is fairly clear from Lemkin's writing that he wanted to include this sort of community destruction within the definition of genocide.
The process was extremely brutal and the genocidaires and their descendants have never shown any remorse. In fact, Balkan countries have even issued postcards to commemorate the eradication of their Muslim communities.
Genocide discourse must address these atrocities which are the direct intellectual ancestor of the genocide of Armenians, Soviet genocide, the mass murder of Jews during WW2, and the murder of Arab Palestine.
Unless genocide discourse becomes more comprehensive, it is suspect and has every appearance of being the tool of Jewish racists.
Joachim,
You were speaking of Gaza in terms of "genocide".
I don't buy it.
Its an exagerated use of the term.
Your equation of Jews to Stalinism is fascist, innaccurate, malevolent.
I get that you saw things in the West Bank and Israel that upset you. I saw things that upset me when I traveled in the West Bank in 1986 (alone, not on a tour), but I didn't see anything like what either you or Phil describe.
Maybe it was a different time. Maybe you and Phil happened to put yourself in situations where you would see more. (Phil went on a tour. You assert that you lived there.)
Nevertheless, to generalize even patterns of abuse into "nature" of a community, is the definition of bigotry.
There is NO such observation that can be generalized accurately.
It would be relevant for you to distinguish between the actions of indivdiuals, or identifiable groups, and of Ashkenazi Jews.
Its a lame thesis, that puts you in bad company.
Phil is an Ashkenazi Jew. I'll ask his mother where his ancestors are from specifically. Is he beastly, a communist sympathizer, possessing genocidal intent?
Am I, also an Ashkenazi Jew.
And, I assume that you are aware that the Mizrahi Jews are the most conservative electorally in Israel, that the Ashekenazi still vote more for labor than likud. (Maybe I'm wrong. I haven't seen recent polls.)
Richard, the authors (W&M) advocate reforming the relationship between Israel and the US no more than the 9/11 Commission did. What was left in and out of the Commission's findings regarding motive is available by Google, including Staff Statement No. 16 "The 9/11 Plot," the result of interrogations directly implicating the USA's congress's one-sided support for Israel.
Why assume the advocates of the book hate that the US has a relationship with Israel and want to sever that when W & M directly state (on p. 12) that the USA should come to Israel's assistance if its survival were in jeopardy? The book's Introduction tells how the Israel lobby functionally harms USA's foreign policy. The weight of the book, at 484 pages, including about 100 footnotes, essentially asks the question, "Is it good for the Americans?" Quite patriotic, no? The Israel lobby has been indentified as conflating the USA's interest with Zionist interest since the 1940's, to the detriment of the USA–I suggest, for starters, you look at the Truman Library's archives.
The book, rather than functionally inhibiting efforts to educate Americans, functionally attempts courageously to educate them, to break the long orchestrated silence in the interest of the USA.
Richard, I won't assume you did not read the book, including all its footnotes, and I won't assume anything about your motives, so I ask again: What book would you recommend? And, do you want to talk about AIPAC, or the effect of AIPAC on our country's security and long-term welfare, and AIPAC and the Israel lobby's network and the aggregate modus operandi ? The title could have been the Zionist Lobby, but that would have taken another
400 pages, so perhaps it would have been ok to have called the book The Israeli Lobby. Again, start with The Truman library, on up to PNAC.
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