In this letter to the Economist, a British historian says that the Armenian genocide was no genocide; and that at the forefront of this understanding is Bernard Lewis, the neoconservative, and pal of Dick Cheney. Lewis, writes Norman Stone, is "sceptical as to
whether 'genocide' is the right word for a tragedy in some degree
provoked by the Armenian nationalists of the time… This is, as the
Turkish government says, an historical matter that should now be left
to historians. I am certain that Armenian businessmen, desperately
anxious for better relations with Turkey, entirely agree."
Of course I wonder whether Israel's delicate relations with Turkey play any role in this sort of thinking. (Thanks to John O'Keeffe for the tip)
Wow, you really don't read much do you? Lewis has been saying this, beginning in his massive history of the ottomans, for fifty years. And he's been boycotted and celebrated by Armenians and Turks respectively. But welcome to the world of Turkish historiography, Philip!
All of my Armenian friends, to a person, believe with absolute conviction that the jews of the region and era conspired with the Ottoman Turks to commit the genocide against their people 100 years ago. Because Armenia as a country, and the Armenian people generally, have been in a weakened state ever since (especially geopolitically) they don't push it. They know how powerful and vicious jews in power can be. I've been told that the jews involved in the genocide of the Armenians wanted their trade and commerce.
This is off topic, but my dad had a Greek friend while in the US Air Force. He was proud of his heritage, epsecially the business acumen of his people. The Greek told my dad about the "shrewdness food-chain."
The Greek stated that regarding business deals or free enterprise, a Jew could outwit a Greek. However, an Armenian is able to outwit everyone.
I believe the quote is "trust a snake before a Jew, and a Jew before a Greek, but under no circumstances trust an Armenian"
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hey very good ~Orwell~ Oarwell?
but i wonder why the wierd turkish secular government, ostensably the outcome of a revolution agaist the ottomans, is so outlandishly eager to lock up anyone who critisizes the ottoman army. and why it opresses islam. was the so called revolution really an army coup? what did the judonians have to do with it? anybody know?
Yes, Paul, I know.
Read this:
Ataturk's Turkey Overturned
By HILLEL HALKIN
July 24, 2007
link to wakeupfromyourslumber.com
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.
Last October, when an 'Armenian genocide' resolution nearly passed Congress, the American Jewish Committee lobbied against it, and The Forward opposed it in an editorial. Scott Paul, writing "as a concerned Jew and citizen," responded that The Forward was letting "Jewish post-Holocaust ethics come second to political calculation and Jewish self-interest."
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/002312.php
He went on to address AJC executive director David Harris with devastating finesse: "Harris identifies this correctly as a choice for Jews between principle and pragmatism, and then almost brings himself to choose principle."
"Almost" — OUCH!
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really good. amazing wierdness. wierdness upon wierdness. apparantly all agree that modern turkish history is a conspiracy theory, the only dispute being which conspiricy is the actual fact.
and at the end of halkinds forward article is this interpolation from the wierd website which has preserved it:
'Awakenedgoyim : All the so called “Young Turks” That led the revolution against the Sultan were Jewish. The Genocide against the Armenians was also led by these Jewish rulers of Turkey. The Muslim Turks have been used as pawns just as Americans and Europeans today are being used as pawns. Jewish involvement in Turkish life continues to date through it’s military, since many of it’s Generals are of Jewish descent,and through the media and finance, biggest daily newspapers and many large industrial companies and banks are Jewish owned.'
Which completely explains the wierdly homicidal reaction of the turkish army whenever the question of ottoman army genocide comes up. and why the army is still paranoid about islam. but i wonder where this wierd website gets its info, and what else they might know. Someone should take a look.
Norman Stone has been slavishly pro-Turkey since taking up a university job in Turkey several years ago. As for Bernard Lewis, he initially accepted the Armenian Genocide as a fact in his "Emergence of Modern Turkey", but changed the wording of this section in later printings, without ever clarifying the reasons for the revision.
More recently, another prominent Ottoman historian, Donald Quataert, has occasioned the ire of the Turkish government by coming out and terming the "events" of 1915 a genocide. See
http://www.armeniangenocide.com/showthread.php?t=3426
The role of Doenme in Turkish political life seems exaggerated. As I remember only one important Turkish politician has ever unequivocally been shown to have Sabbatian ancestry. I remember reading that a Turkish actress, whose parents were Sabbateans from Thessalonica, published a Sabbatean cookbook, which did fairly well in Jewish bookstores.
Historically both Eastern European and Ibero-Berber Jews like about Armenians and vice versa probably because Jews and Armenians tended to compete for the same economic niche in the Ottoman Empire, the Czarist Empire and Commonwealth Poland.
Lewis' argument against calling the mass murder of Armenians during the waning days of the Ottoman Empire could be made even more strongly against calling the mass murder of Jews during WW2 a genocide. In the Czarist Empire a high percentage of the Yiddish population was involved in terrorism, assassinations (Alexander II, P.A. Stolypin, and Nicholas II + family), and murderous revolutionary activities.
During WW1, predominantly Jewish led communists overthrew the Czarist government.
In the aftermath of WW1, predominantly Jewish led communists attempted coups against the Bavarian and Hungarian governments.
During the Russian Civil War and the consolidation of the Soviet Union, Soviet Ashkenazim were up to their eyeballs in mass murder, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
The mass murder of Jews during WW2 is in the main a result of understandable fears and anger at Jewish murderousness and violence during the three preceding decades.
http://eaazi.blogspot.com/2007/10/more-jewish-genocide-denial.html
(Use the above URL to thread through the hyperlinks in the article below.)
More Jewish Genocide Denial
The Politics of Genocide
by Joachim Martillo (ThorsProvoni@aol.com)
We do not have a sane discussion of genocide in the USA. Not only are ethnic Ashkenazi Americans, who try to act as the guardians of US genocide discourse in order to control it, at least as much genocide deniers as Turks, but a segment of the organized Jewish community is also trying to use the Armenian genocide and a very selective reading of Ottoman or Turkish history as part of a program to control genocide discourse and to incite Islamophobia.
Under Turkish Rule points to an example of this sort of biased and hate-filled writing from Andrew Bostom.
The Turks are justifiably sensitive to prejudice against Islam and the Ottoman Empire, whose intellectual and political achievements rendered the word Turkish synonymous with Muslim from the 15th until the beginning of the 20th century.
Throughout the 19th century demonization of Islam and the Ottomans justified mass murder and expulsion of Balkan Muslims while during the same time period similar outrages accompanied Russian expansion into Muslim areas of the Caucasus. The victims of Russian genocidalism generally sought and were granted refuge within the Ottoman Empire.
Tel Aviv Uiversity Professor Ehud Toledano remarks in Slavery and Abolition that scholars have generally used terms like forced migration to minize the crimes of Czarist expansionism.
Rational discussion with Turks about genocide simply will not be possible unless Americans and other Westerners show even-handedness through some sort of acknowledgement of the genocide and ethnic cleansing
~ of Balkan Muslim populations as the Ottoman Empire retreated* and
~ of Caucasian Muslims as the Russian Empire expanded.
The Unrepentant Genocidaires discusses Jewish and Turkish genocide denial. Analysis of Jewish (really ethnic Ashkenazi) genocidalism appears in:
~ Yom Kippur and Ashkenazi Genocidalism
~ Holoexaleipsis, Holocaust, Holosphage and Holodomor
~ The Pattern of Ethnic Ashkenazi Genocidalism: The Jewish Century by Yuri Slezkine.
I discuss the issues harshly, but I attended practically every Holocaust or genocide-related event in the Boston area for two years, and I am now so completely disgusted that I am inclined to propose that treating genocide as a crime separate from mass murder is simply wrong and that there might be good reason to abandon the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide because genocide discourse is simply much too politicized as the example of ongoing Zionist incitement against Sudan and Iran shows. (See Zionist Film: Genocide Denial, Genocide Incitement, Casus Belli, If you liked Iraq, you will love Sudan, and [S1474] Why is Darfur so important to the Jewish community?.)
The JTA article below indicates how much political expediancy governs whether some Jews apply the term genocide.
————
* I have seen early 20th century Serb genocide postcards displayed at Harvard.
____
Jewish congressmen fight genocide bill
Published: 10/18/2007
Two Jewish congressmen are working to keep the Armenian genocide bill from reaching the U.S. House of Representatives floor.
U.S. Reps. Robert Wexler (D-Fla.) and Stephen Cohen (D-Tenn.), as well as three other opponents of the controversial bill memorializing the killings of Armenians by the Ottoman Empire during World War I, spoke harshly of its implications for U.S. relations with Turkey at a news conference Wednesday in Washington.
The bill, which would label the killings as genocide, was approved by the House Foreign Affairs Committee by a 27-21 vote on Oct. 10. At that time it had 226 co-sponsors, but support has waned due to threats from Turkey to withdraw support for American troops in Iraq if it is passed.
More than half of the cargo traveling from the U.S. to Iraq is flown through Turkey's Incerlik air base, and Turkish troops are allied with Americans on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. President Bush is fiercely opposed to the resolution.
"The Middle East is a tinderbox," Wexler said. "Our responsibility is to bring as much stability as is humanly possible."
Cohen added that passage of the bill would cause "real-time harm to real people."
"Historically both Eastern European and Ibero-Berber Jews like about Armenians and vice versa probably because Jews and Armenians tended to compete for the same economic niche in the Ottoman Empire, the Czarist Empire and Commonwealth Poland."
should have been
"Historically both Eastern European and Ibero-Berber Jews *LIE* about Armenians and vice versa probably because Jews and Armenians tended to compete for the same economic niche in the Ottoman Empire, the Czarist Empire and Commonwealth Poland."
—-
Yiddish has derogatory terms for Armenians that include a wish for their destruction.
With regard to Armenians, Poland is somewhat unique in that historically the Armenians were Tatar/Turkic-language speakers. In other words the Armenians of Poland were Turks.
Czarist Russian Armenians generally spoke Tatar, Greek or Armenian. The largest number spoke Armenian.
Look people get with the program!
Anybody who dares criticize Turkish moslem government and it's history is an anti semite!
…
Mr. Weiss, how can you not go crazy with this narrative?
I mean this is getting into the twilight zone here.
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Ataturk was a Donmeh Jew. He banned Islam in Turkish government as soon as he took over. Scroll up and read Hillal's articles. In Hillal's 1994 Forward article he remarks that the PM of Israel knew Ataturk was Jewish.
The Young Turks from Salonica were Donmeh Jews. The London Times archives from 1911-1916 discuss this, because British Jews complained about the torture and brutality.
As Hillel points out, the summer of 2007 was when Ataturk's hold on modern Turkey died, and a Muslim government took over.
As for the Amernians…. They were extraordinarily successful in the 1880s and beyond within the Ottoman Empire as a result of adopting the business concepts of an American visionary there at the time, whose name I can't remember. The Donmehs were jealous. They wanted what the Armenians had. There are books on this.
I saw photos in Yerevan of the Armenian genocide taken as it was happening by a German military photographer. It was actually illegal to do so, but this officer convinced the Turks he was recording events for them. The horror was unimaginable. The cruelty was barbaric, which I believe is how Henry Morgenthau Sr also characterized it in a letter to Pres. Wilson. Mile-long trenches dug by the Armenians before they were told to jump into the trenches themselves, sometime naked, sometimes not, and a Turkish officer started shooting them from one end of the trench while the rest were digging their own graves down the line. The hangings in the streets. The heads on bayonets and fences points. The ditches full of dead, naked, emaciated bodies. I have seen no other photos from the 20th C that match them for human barbarity over such an extended period of time involving 1/2 of the population. The people in Yerevan say 3 million were killed. People over here say 1.5 million.
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In Ataturk's father's generations, marriages between doenme males and non-doenme females were extremely unlikely.
Here is an essay on the doenme that appears to attempt to provide substantiated information:
http://www.avrumehrlich.net/sabbatean.htm
MRW wrote: "In Hillal's 1994 Forward article he remarks that the PM of Israel knew Ataturk was Jewish."
I read the article and could not find this. The article mentions Weizman who was Israel President (a largely symbolic office in Israel) and nowhere does it claim that he knew of the alleged Ataturk doenme origins. On the contrary, Halkin (that's his last name, by the way, not Hillel, which is the first name) mentions that the spokeswoman for Weizman was surprised by the info.
The Anti-Defamation League is a denier of the Armenian genocide. For this reason, it been much criticized by principled Jews and the Jewish American and Israeli media.
Information on this campaign, which has made international news, can be found at www.NoPlaceforDenial.com.
You may wish to click on TIMELINE and NEWS ARCHIVE to trace how the issue has developed and been covered over the last year.
Reading about Armenian Genocide on Wikipedia, I learned about Heath Lowry affair
link to armeniapedia.org
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a "fascinating" story about genocide denial, academic integrity etc. A summary from the Wikipedia page:
"In 1990, psychologist Robert Jay Lifton received a letter from the Turkish Ambassador to the United States, questioning his inclusion of references to the Armenian Genocide in one of his books. The ambassador inadvertently included a draft of the letter, presented by scholar Heath Lowry, advising the ambassador on how to prevent mention of the Armenian Genocide in scholarly works. In 1996, Lowry was named to a chair at Princeton University, which had been financed by the Turkish government, sparking a debate on ethics in scholarship."
The charges against Bernard Lewis are true:
- He is protecting the interests of Turkey
-He is protecting the interests of Israel
above all.
Beyond that, it must be noted that Jewish "scholars" and I mention Zionist Orientalists such as Bernard Lewis in quotes, always jump at any mention of a genocide other than the holocaust.
Why?
Because it would set a precedent for the acknowledgement of the suffering of other peoples besides the Jews (BTW I do NOT the vile Nazi holocaust) and thus take away the halo of sympathy surrounding them.
The Ottomans were wise rulers who gave their subjects stability in return for loyalty and tribute, but the Young Turks who took over in 1908 were cunning, cruel, monsters, who influenced tyrants everywhere.
Adolf Hitler once said:
"Who now remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?"
I rest my case.
I meant to say that I do NOT deny the vile Nazi Holocaust. Typing error.
TERROR AND INDISCRIMINIATE DESTRUCTION OF LIFE AND POVERTY WERE THE TWIN ARCH PILLARS UPON WHICH ISRAEL WAS FOUNDED ON MAY 14, 1948.
THE ACHILLES HEEL OF U.S. FOREIGN POLICY IS ISRAEL.