One of my gurus is Nancy Horn, a therapist who lives in Central Pennsylvania and understands Israel/Palestine as well as anyone. She didn't like what I said today about Bruce Ivins (where I basically convicted him ex posthumo of the anthrax crimes). I'm going to provide our dialogue below. Nancy gets the last word. One comment ahead of time. The left wing blogosphere seems to have seized on this case as an American David Kelly–the British scientist who killed himself after being grilled by a parliamentary committee about whether he'd leaked the "sexed-up" intelligence stuff to the BBC right after the Iraq war began in '03. Kelly was a great man, I believe, and a martyr of the antiwar movement (though he lied about his actions). Glenn Greenwald is surely right that the anthrax was used to gin up the Iraq disaster. But I see more good faith here than my fellow travelers.
NANCY HORN:
Ivins had psychiatric problems, no question about it. But he'd sought
therapy; not his fault his psychiatrist filled him like a cocktail shaker
w/God knows what. And wacko does not mean killer.
OK, [husband] Lyle is a biophysicist and I'm a clinical psychologist so our
discussions about this case are probably not garden variety but there is
*nothing* in the FBI docu-dump to indicate he made the stuff or mailed
the letters. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Not one stinking thing. Jean Duley,
as I suspected, is a substance abuse "counselor" w/a history of DUI's
and a two-year degree in social work, not even counseling! The
"forensic psychiatrist" who "diagnosed" Ivins used 30-year-old language
that would have been inappropriate even then and it is not even certain
he saw the guy! That protective order was wrong in the language used,
reasons cited, when it was filled out vis-a-vis what *allegedly*
happened in the group, and when and where it was and was not served.
No facts, just smears. Yeah, he was f^&*d up, and perhaps — perhaps —
should not have been doing that work but the guy was working w/wet
anthrax on a vaccine, not dry/dangerous/weapons-grade stuff. For pete's
sake, Philip — do you mean to tell me you actually believe anything
these creeps do? It's not even a good cover-up, but was CLEARLY
designed by idiots under orders to attract attention elsewhere. I well
remember being stunned by the FBI's weirdness in this case right from
the beginning — they didn't even seek the advice of regular scientists,
let alone experts, and probably knew less about the stuff than I do, and
believe me, that's not much.
The man was hounded to death (admittedly a short trip), and the real
killers are still out there.
P.S. When I told
Lyle one of the allegations against the guy was that he worked late, he
spewed just about a full mouth of coffee. THEY ALL WORK LATE, and this
guy lived close enough to the lab to walk there. Also, he worked late
BEFORE 9/11, trying to save the Bioport vaccine.
NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER placing him near that mailbox when the letters were
mailed. None.
NO EVIDENCE WHATEVER he actually made the anthrax that was sent. None.
So their case is, um, what again?
Last-ditch efforts to save Cheney.
WEISS:
your claim that the real killers are out there is just as suspect as
someone else's claim that ivins is the guy.
ivins was a nut and a mad scientist. im using my common sense on that.
i dont think he should have been in this job if he was stalking kappa
kappa gamma. im not saying he sent the anthrax. im saying that this guy
should never have been in the job.
though yes: i believe he did send it, on the basis of this stuff.
there's a twisted component to his thinking, from this evidence.
NANCY HORN:
My point is that we know no more than we did three weeks ago. Yes, the
guy creeps me out, too — for gosh sakes, my first husband post-doc'd
in Chapel Hill just a couple of years before this guy did, and that's
where he (allegedly — emails can be tampered with and were only
obtained afterwards) broke into the Kappa house. So yeah, his
creepiness is a little too close for comfort for me, too. BUT…
1. Assuming the "evidence" they just dumped is what they believed
would convict him, uh, well, there ISN'T ANY. Just creepiness. No
evidence, much less proof, he made it. No evidence, much less proof,
he mailed it.
2. They tried to portray him as a rightwing Christian DEMOCRAT.
Uh??? However, there is a letter he wrote to that local paper about
Christianity which certainly IS NOT rightwing Christian — in fact, it
directly criticizes that.
3. They tried to portray him as more angry at Bin Laden for those
statements about Jews and Americans than anyone else was. However,
even the AP neglected to use the first part of his quote; it starts,
"They say that…" and you and I both remember "them" "saying" just
that.
4. That Duley woman was certified to work under direct supervision,
which happened apparently only by the FBI. But I am sure they got her
because w/her DUI's she should have lost her certification.
5. I don't know how much you know about FBI security clearances but
they're either perfunctory/pro-forma or outrageously and irrelevantly
intrusive (depending, I think, on the IQ and mood of the agent as well
as how good-looking the person being questioned ). And ditto for the
background-checks they do prior to employment (I actually received a
couple back for employees that hadn't even been filled out). So yes,
there is a need for better work on clearances across the board. But
the FBI apparently does very good work in kiddie stuff( porn,
kidnappings, etc.) — and not much of anything else even halfway well.
And this investigation was political from start to finish.
Sure he could be guilty. But the investigation stunk from start to
finish and as a scientist's wife, a shrink who specialized in substance
abuse and finally as an attorney's daughter, I'm still waiting for just
ONE SOLID PIECE of evidence. ONE, Phil, Just One.
Innocent or guilty, the
guy was framed, driven to death, and now smeared. How could his family
be anything right now besides terrified and in shock. His colleagues,
btw, showed up in droves at his funeral, and spoke quite highly about
him — they are also on the record as being very, very skeptical. And
unless everyone there was in on the plot, they'd know the man, wouldn't
they?
WEISS:
I havent looked into the case as closely as
you have, and I won't, because I have never found it that interesting.
The anthrax stuff never really interested me, though I like Glenn Greenwald's
work on this.
But my chief response to this guy is, This could be the guy. He's
plainly twisted enough, and it would take a twisted guy. I am always
down with characterological analysis. It's why I didn't want Bill
Clinton to be president or Clarence Thomas to be on the Supreme Court.
Yes there's a big difference between depriving someone of a high office
and depriving him of life and liberty, but who deprived Ivins of life–Ivins did. He was hounded, yes; and he should have been given the
circumstantial evidence connecting him. His own attorney said on the
front page of the Times today, the evidence might make him a suspect,
it doesn't convict him. A suspect. This is what happens to a suspect:
he's hounded by authorities, as he should be if he is suspected of
killing five people and starting a national hysteria. And apparently he
never gave a good answer on his activities on the days in question and
submitted false samples to the feds.
If this guy is innocent and being smeared, I want people to start
making the case. Again, where is the family? What do they think?
I speak as someone who lost work in the mainstream media because I
didn't believe the facts as offered in the Vince Foster case or the TWA
800 case. I went out on a limb; I still think I'm right on those cases. I don't get
that feeling of funny investigation here.
I feel that you are motivated here by Christian compassion for a
troubled guy, which I admire but is not really consonant with law
enforcement intensity, which I want investigators to have. And also
some anti-Bush rage, which god knows I share.
I admit my main engagement on
this case is literary. I think it's a great story, and I think, this is the kind of character who would
do this. And I like Occam's razor; this is the simple obvious Hitchcockian
explanation.
NANCY HORN:
My main concern is that the facts as presented might work fine in the
court of public opinion, but they're just not enough to convict him.
Yes, I'm a big champion of the underdog but I chose to work w/junkies
[in Philadelphia] rather than nutcakes (not that you can necessarily separate them out
that cleanly!) precisely because I'm really not crazy about crazies.
And like you, I'm pretty into the literary and psychological dimensions
of a story. But here, the psychological stuff may make for great drama
but his weirdness just does not appear skewed in the direction of a
killer. Even the self-description in his emails — while certainly
sick — was just not twisted enough. And making his
already-hospitalized-for-depression daughter view pictures of the
victims, or offering his son 25K and a sportscar to turn him in is,
well, redolent of the USSR. Why push him if you've got the goods –
why not just arrest him and bring him to trial? And if they HAD the
goods on this guy in 2004, why'd they go after Hatfill instead? It
just doesn't add up.
This guy was more of a mini- Walter Mitty than Dr.
Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde. Majorly screwed up but just not in the right
direction. I'm not saying he's innocent, mind you — I'm just saying I
haven't seen ONE SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE that says otherwise. And
like everyone else, I'd rest a whole lot better if this case was solved.
While there isn't a thing I'd put past Dick Cheney, I'm more inclined
to think the FBI is just exhibiting its usual incompetence. Given the
politicization of the Justice Department, they've probably been under
orders to solve this by fall, to give McSame a much-needed boost in the
polls.
he doesnt have to be a hero like Kelly to have been innocent of the FBI's charges. from what i've read (their offer of a sports car to his son to implicate his father, etc) they seem to have found a weak character to implicate and hound for years until he cracked, killed himself, now they can say "fait accompli"
I don't think Ivins wrote those terrorists notes or letters–how likely is it that a character like Ivins, with his professional creds, would misspell the word "penicillin?"
I think he'd spell it correctly, even if he was faking the source of the biochemical attacks.
I bet Feith knows the real skinny.
The strain of anthrax was available to others besides him–and over a four year period. I think scorpio has the case by the balls.
He was either an unwitting accomplice, or a knowing one, but he did not act alone–and likely did not write the childish alleged terrorist notes, especially the one misspelling the word "penicillin." He was a nerd, he would've got that right.
The anthrax letters made the “terrorist attack” seem wider and more general. This increased the sense of peril and Americans’ fear and anger, thereby opening wider the door for the Bush Regime’s attack on Iraq and US civil liberty.
Now that the dead Ivins can be conveniently blamed for the anthrax mailings, the Bush Regime can declare the case closed, thus protecting the false flag operation from further risk of exposure.
Next, the AIPAC spy case…
Once it some of it gets hinky, it all gets hinky.
We don't even know for sure he suicided, because there's so damn much dishonesty in and all around the whole thing.
Like those two high-end prostitutes that suicided by hanging. Very hinky.
It's creepy and scary but once it's become obvious – and it has become obvious – that these guys will stop at nothing to get what they want and to protect themselves, we have to approach everything they're involved in with that foremost in mind.
They will stop at nothing.
Which means without a more powerful unbiased authority – which doesn't exist in earthly form just now – we only have each other.
Phil should listen to his friend.
.
"His weirdness just does not appear skewed in the direction of a killer. Given the
politicization of the Justice Department, they've probably been under orders to solve this by fall."
Word, Nancy. If you had a team working clandestinely to develop weaponized anthrax, an ideal cover would be having a patsy — a Lee Harvey Oswald or Sirhan B. Sirhan figure, as it were — to push in front of the cameras, so as to protect the real killers.
Nancy's offhand comment about "solving this by fall" is a bit more chilling. Are they clearing the decks of the old terror incidents (anthrax, Osama's driver, etc.) in order to set the stage for the next one? I would bet there's still some J. Edgar Hoover mentality in the dark crannies of government, the same mentality which led Hoover to spy on M. L. King. Some of those mossbacks just do not want a liberal black candidate to become president. Hillary has hinted at the "solution." And that's all I'm saying about that.
Do you think the person who misspelt penicillin as "penacilin" in the first anthrax note is the same person who spelt therapist as "theripist" while preparing Jean C Duley's submission?.
More seriously,
As a scientist with secondary career in mental health, I am simply not convinced of "homicidal" element in Dr. Ivin's condition. As other's said: creepy. Creepy doesn't mean guilty. I promise to be able to turn any of you readers into creepy crazies in national media based on some of your e-mail/letter extracts.
Hell, I remember some fantasies of mine that would put me firmly in "split personality" categories, and as to the death threats to my husband relating to rubbish not taken out…..
Obtaining anthrax in a sophisticated form that was send out from the simple liquid form he worked on is not a matter of working late.
It is sophisticated and complex process, and requires equipment ( which nobody seems to investigate) and at least access to correct standard operating procedures (recipes) which nobody seems to notice he did not have. Just how sophisticated that spore powder was seem to have been carefully brushed out of the discourse in the last few years. Saying that having access to right strain of Anthrax is sufficient is like saying that I will knock off a swiss mechanism perpetual motion wristwatch in a week after work because I have access to correct grade steel and few right size springs.
Have anybody in the field, anywhere, claimed it was doable? Has anybody recreated his work from the tools he had? Timed it?
I promise to be able to turn any of you readers into creepy crazies in national media based on some of your e-mail/letter extracts.
Absolutely! That's why I am highly skeptic of this kind of evidence. As I can see how emotionally alluring it is to us humans.
Wikipedia links to an old article about the "Ames strain" and its history:
The Ames Strain
Good article by Justin Raimondo.
The Anthrax Follies and the Bizarro Effect
@ charles Keating, "false flag operation", maybe this phrase will become banned.
Big and small it is now the order of the day.
The questions persist: who were ABC's "highly-placed" government sources telling them the anthrax was Iraqi? Who told Richard Cohen to take Cipro?
Who wrote the letter trying to frame Assad?
False flags? What about Sy Hersh's report that Cheney wanted to dress Navy SEALs as Iranians, put them in mock Iranian gunboats, and start a shooting war with the US Navy?
Certainly an interesting glimpse into how Cheney's brain works. War, "by any means necessary."
Funny how the MSM didn't touch that one. Maybe they're too afraid.
As the heroic Raimondo says in his Antiwar.com column this morning, this "…brings us to the scariest aspect of this entire affair: the real culprits are still out there."
Cheney, according to Hersh, has no moral or ethical problem conjuring up a false flag event where Americans shoot at Americans to start a war.
Ivins had no motive to specifically target Daschle, Leahy, and the media. Others (guess who?) did.
Connect the dots. Anthrax was a domestic false flag, which they are attempting to obscure with a dead patsy. Was 9-11 itself a false flag operation? Think about how many times the White House tried to block the 9-11 investigation. Think of Condi's lies, about Cheney's lies that NEVER EVER could they conceive that people would fly planes into skyscrapers, even though the DOD had run numerous war games in the years preceeding the attacks with EXACTLY THAT SCENARIO.
Rip the mental covers off, and reveal the rotted corpse lying in the bed of American democracy.
Sorry for the long C&P, but in case any readers don't know about the letter trying to fram Dr. Assad, here's Raimondo:
"In September 2001 – before the news of the anthrax letters broke, but after they had been postmarked – a letter addressed to the "Town of Quantico police" was received that accused Assaad of being a terrorist who was planning to wage biological warfare against the U.S. on American soil. As the first anthrax letters were opened, Assaad got a call from the FBI. Agent Gregory Leylegian wanted to have a little talk with him.
The meeting, also attended by Assaad's lawyer, proved quite a shock to Assaad. As the agent read the accusing letter aloud, one thing became readily apparent: the Camel Club was getting its revenge.
Whatever the motives of the Quantico letter's author, one fact seems fairly obvious: whoever wrote it very likely had foreknowledge of the anthrax attacks. Yet all attempts to examine this vital piece of evidence have been deflected by the FBI. Don Foster, a professor of English at Vassar and an expert in the field of textual analysis – it was Foster who identified Joe Klein as the author of Primary Colors – was asked to analyze the anthrax letters, and on the subject of the Quantico letter he had this to say in Vanity Fair:
"It was now December 2001, yet Dolan and Altimari's Hartford Courant story was the first I had heard of the Quantico letter. [Supervisory Special Agent James R]. Fitzgerald had not heard of it, either. In fact, there were quite a few critical documents that Fitzgerald had not yet seen. What, I wondered, has the anthrax task force been doing. Hoping that the Quantico letter might lead, if not to the killer, at least to a suspect, I offered to examine the document. My photocopy arrived by FedEx not from the task force but from FBI headquarters in Washington. Searching through documents by some 40 USAMRIID employees, I found writings by a female officer that looked like a perfect match. I wrote a detailed report on the evidence, but the anthrax task force declined to follow through: the Quantico letter had already been declared a hoax and zero-filed as part of the 9/11 investigation."
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13251
Met you in 97-98 while scrimmaging with the NTSB re TWA800 and our many trips to DC from our home in NC- I also helped found www.flight800.org with Tom Stalcup who you might know, as of late, has discovered radar data showing a projectile hit the plane- but no coverage of that Press Release a couple weeks ago. Always enjoyed your clear-headed writing at the New York Observer- Was so pleased to come across this website while googling you.
I’m a little disappointed in your lack of interest in the Ivins case. Realizing that sleep at night and peace of mind are sometimes little solace compared to losing a job in the MSM, (ask Robert Parry) I can understand the reluctance to take up any banner that has that untouchable odor. But considering the ramifications of this story-Knock down the Towers, scare the s… out of Daschle and Leahy, pass the Gestapo documents, go straight to war-, I would hope you would join those voices in the wilderness calling for investigation and not trial by insinuation and slander. After all, Greenwald and others need all the good help they can get.
Sincerely,
David Neal
Like a splinter in the mind.
"A forged letter linking Saddam Hussein to the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks was ordered on White House stationery and probably came from the office of Vice President Dick Cheney, according to a new transcript of a conversation with the Central Intelligence Agency's former Deputy Chief of Clandestine Operations Robert Richer."
Bush and Cheney are lying psychopaths. Who other than the venal and the mentally impaired believes ANYTHING they say?
To believe them on 9-11 and the anthrax murders, in the face of a mountain of evidence that their natural language is falsehood, is to embrace a species of cognitive dissonance that most citizens of the Soviet Union would have found laughable, if not so pathetic and weak-minded.
Oarwell, yep!
Weiss: "He was hounded, yes; and he should have been given the circumstantial evidence connecting him. His own attorney said on the front page of the Times today, the evidence might make him a suspect, it doesn't convict him. A suspect. This is what happens to a suspect: he's hounded by authorities, as he should be if he is suspected of killing five people and starting a national hysteria. And apparently he never gave a good answer on his activities on the days in question and submitted false samples to the feds."
As he should be? Like Richard Jewell, and Hatfill, and who knows how many other "suspects" that we'll never really know about. That is, unless the FBI sees fit to ruin their lives deliberately via the media as opposed to quietly ruining it by contacting employers, friends, family and potential allies.
Phil, you sound like a Jack Bauer fantacist here; you're no different from Limbaugh. Ivin's rights were violated, just as were Hatfills. And an obviously ill man was pushed into doing a very convenient thing- ending his own life, in effect tying up all the loose ends of the mess made by the FBI.