Earlier today I posted about "reverse aliyah," or the desire of Israelis to move to the U.S. A friend points out that many Jews would prefer to live with gentiles:
Jews have never been especially interested in moving to Israel. Ben
Gurion was deeply disappointed after 1948 when so few Jews moved to
Israel. I think there were about 5 million Jews in Russia in 1900. Over
the next 15 or so years, about 4 million stayed put (although there was
much migration to cities inside Russia), about 1 million went to the US,
and probably about 50,000 went to Palestine. As Walt and Mearsheimer
point out in their book, the Jewish quotas for Mandate Palestine weren't
filled till Hitler came to power. And remember we had to force the Jews
from the FSU [Former Soviet Union] to go to Israel after 1989. Most
wanted to come here.
Don't forget that you also have a lot of internal migration in Israel
with movement of the secular out of Jerusalem. Also remember what is
happening with birthrates among Jews: your average ultra-orthodox woman
has 7.6 children. That has major consequences over time, especially since
most refuse to serve in the military.
The truth is that like you, huge numbers of Jews really like
living among the goyim, as long as they are behaving themselves of
course, and they have been behaving very well for a long time now. In
fact, so well, that many of them dream of jumping into bed with Jewish
boys and girls. And before you know it they are falling in love and
swallowing the "candy coated poison" known as inter-marriage.
(Weiss again) Interesting when experience meets ideology. Aliyah means moving up. Living in New York means yoredim, or living down. But people don't feel that way.When Israeli Yossi Alpher opines in my previous post that Jews can't shake the diaspora out of their consciousness, he's got it wrong–they like diaspora.
I would add that I lived for many years with my grandmother on the Lower East Side, five blocks from where she was born, and used to lament the absence of Jews there. Pure nostalgia. Honey we done moved to the suburbs as we soon as we could put the ghetto air behind us. The same can be said of other ethnic communities in this country. I used to visit New Ulm in Minnesota, where they make great beer and used to speak German. I hear that Germanophone towns in Minnesota are no longer. My friend Susan is Norwegian from Pipestone, MN. Her aunts and uncles used to speak some Norwegian. That time is over. The same process of deracination is eroding the identity of privileged young Jews, notwithstanding the sizeable effect of Michael Walzer's revivalism and Sheldon Adelson's birthright trips and Michael Steinhardt's many efforts to get Jews to marry Jews. Many people actually enjoy a diverse society. Witness the mixed-race American we're gonna nominate tonight to try and save our country.
Related posts:
- Jews Prefer to Live Among Gentiles (Says Haaretz)
- I Meet ‘Galut’ Jews at a Christmas Party in L.A.
- My New Year’s Parties Expose Mingling of Affluent Gentiles and Jews
- Anti-Zionist Jews are issuing a clarion call to leftleaning gentiles– Speak out with us!
- Fact: Jews are a minority in Israel/Palestine. Isn’t this a recipe for apartheid?
{ 33 comments }
Philip Weiss:
They can come to London.
If they speak good English, and have marketable skills, it really is liberty hall.
If they want to live in an enclosed Jewish community, they can do.
If — like most British Jews — they would rather intermingle with the rest of us — they can do that.
One thing I would say is that none of my (very many) Jewish friends, colleagues, acquaintances, has ever referred to Jews in my hearing as a 'tribe' — as you do.
We WASP liberals were taught by Sir Karl Popper, who argued that 'tribalism' led to Nazism.
Zionism would not have been needed, or succeeded without the presence of naziism.
It would just be some regions of concentrations of Jewish settlement, rather than a Jewish state.
But, Hitler did exist. And, of the 5.5 million Jewish residents of Israel, the vast majority are children or grandchildren of refugees (both from displacement in Europe, and displacement in Sephardic areas).
American Jewish support for Israel is solidarity, not self-interest largely.
What is it that we are? What is it that we are a part of?
Wity: "Zionism would not have been needed, or succeeded without the presence of naziism."
Would Nazism have arisen without the presence of Jewish Bolshevism and its millions of murders prior to the rise of Nazism? I think not.
But your statement is factually correct, which explains why Zionists collaborated with Nazis (see Lenni Brenner, The Age of Dictators)…
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/zionist_collaboration_with_the_nazis.htm
…just as they are collaborating with Christian Zionists today.
Check:
Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/zionist_collaboration_with_the_nazis.htm
Ed,
Does anyone listen to you?
Thankfully, "they had it coming" is out of social favor.
You contribute to making Zionism necessary and sympathized. Was that your intent?
i don't read ed's remarks as saying "they had it coming". what he is pointing out is that there is cause and effect in life, in history. that doesn't make it fair or right, but it does remove the idea that jews were irrationally targeted for no reason at all except that they were jews. that is the idea that is heavily promoted. it would be the same as anti-americanism. most of us were educated that it must be from resentment and envy, because there could be no other rathionale, we are such nice guys. then we grow up and find out that there are very good reasons for some in the world to be anti-american. is it right or fair for all americans to be tarred by the same brush? no, but at least it makes sense.
"Thankfully, "they had it coming" is out of social favor."
But "they had it coming" was not implicit in Ed's post. You added that in your own mind.
When people point out that the motivation for the 9/11 bombers was anger at our policy in the Middle East, they are not saying that the inhabitants of the towers deserved to die. You can explain the causes of something without justifying it.
(Unless of course that something is "antisemitism," which by definition never has a cause.)
(Sorry, I just repeated what peters wrote.)
It certainly was implicit in Ed's post.
Don't rationalize please.
Nice of your friend to use the pejorative "goyim" to describe us in what I gather was an informal email(?) to you. Nice also of him to write of us as if we were children, either behaving well or not behaving well.
On these responses, I sometimes feel bad when I refer to the Jewish perception of gentiles as colored by the word, "goyim." For example, I will write, "the Jews see us "goyim" as…" But then I think to myself, surely not all Jews use what I understand is a fairly nasty epithet in their conversations with other Jews. Now I see that even Phil's friends do!…
When it comes to the combined intelligence of organised Judaism. Then we should enquire, what is the spin? What is the hidden agenda? Is it to depopulate Israel of the secular leaning Jews, or the reverse to break the ghetto of the settlements. Or to simply spread the tentacles? Or to replace the Jewish agency in enticing would be imigrants? I could never be clever enough to know. But there is surely a hidden agenda in encouraging Israelis to emigrate, it is called yordim, to go down, to lower oneself in life. There is a profit motive behind the campaign!
Witty, like most Zionists, is fundamentally dishonest both morally and intellectually, and a cheap-shot artist to boot.
He uses quotes — "they had it coming" — is if quoting what I said, when I said no such thing.
It is a fact that Jews disproportionately both participated and benefited from the Bolshevik revolution, and were disproportionately participatory in its agenda of political and cultural extermination. Many seemed to take particular relish in exterminating Christians and Cossacks. “Jewish Bolshevism” was a term regularly used by many intellects of the era, including Winston Churchill, but was eventually largely pushed down the memory hole, mostly by Jewish Zionists. But the truth is still out there. Even Wikipedia acknowledges that the rise of Nazism was the result of “anger at the Treaty of Versailles and what was considered to have been a Jewish/Communist conspiracy…”
It is also a fact that Hitler utilized the record of the Jewish-Communist connection in order to whip up fear and hysteria amongst Germans, and to rationalize his own extremism, just as the Zionists use the record of Nazism to whip up fear and hysteria amongst Jews, and to rationalize their extremism in Palestine to this day.
Witty knows all of this to be true, because we have gone round and round on it before, and he has been adequately educated. But he is an ideological Zionist, so truth isn’t relevant, only dogma. Witty is more interested in fashioning and maintaining the Zionist version of what Marx called “false consciousness,” just as the Bushies are only interested in maintaining the Neocon false consciousness that America was attacked on 9/11 merely because of our freedom and prosperity, when in fact it was because of our Mideast wars and meddling, our blank check to Israel, and our granting to Zionists a license to kill, protected by our U.N. veto powers.
Fundamentally usurious and dishonest groups tend to gravitate towards one another (“birds of a feather”) hence the worst, greediest elements of American society and the Elites of Zion are now a team. Guys like Witty are the dregs of another era, back when Zionists posed as humanitarians interested in social justice in order to get hold of the levers of power (in the best Jewish Bolshevik tradition). He still can’t accept that the Zionist movement has graduated to Jewish National Socialism. Or rather, that Judeo-fascists no longer have to wear their masks.
Truth is the irrelevance of those unfortunates without dogma. … 9-11 seems to have been an extension of Middle East policy rather than because of it.
I also dispute Witty’s dishonest assertion that ‘ “They had it coming" is out of social favor,’
whereas that was the dishonest rationale propagated by Jewish Zionists and Neocons for invading Iraq, allegedly for Iraq’s connections to 9/11 and WMD — connections that turned out to be non-existent. Yet more lies made up by Neocons and Jewish Zionists.
But I guess that Witty beleives that because “the Jews had it coming” is out of social favor, that’s all that really matters.
Zionist collaboration with the Nazis was a fact, however uncomfortable some are with that bit of history.
~
Most Germans did not know what the Nazis were doing. And they probably knew that if they questioned too much, they would suffer from the Gestapo. ~ We should cherish our freedom ~ imagine if there had been an internet then ~ it might have stopped the monolithic tunnel vision.
"Jews Prefer Living Among Gentiles"
Only if they have special treatment. That's the purpose of judaism, to perplex a country into accepting its idiosyncrasies which are then fine tuned to extract the maximum amount of benefits before the commoners can perceive what is happening.
But in the moment the commoners start asking for equal treatment (so many "jewish clauses" and taxes-for-Israel out there to discover) then the multipurpose ghost of antisemitism is invoked to block any adjustments, therefore creating the need for an eventual conflagration.
Anyone believing there is a way out of this fix other than reinforcing the equal treatment under the law and creating the means for expelling anyone defying this principle (note that you are far from anything like that) is deluding himself.
But even if this is accomplished you will have to deal with those expelled, who will devote their lives to America's destruction.
"Zionism would not have been needed, or succeeded without the presence of naziism."
Both Zionism and the NSDAP were based on 19th century racial nationalism.
Both Nazism and Zionism promoted and profited from anti-Semitism and the idea that "Jews can never be Germans." Both movements were anathema to the Jewish Enlightenment and German Reform. For the Orthodox, Zionism was a detestable heresy.
Witty tells us that "Zionism would not have been needed or succeeded without the presence of Naziism." But this sentence is only half true at best. Zionism pre-dated Nazism since it was advanced by Theodore Herzl in the late 1880's, and I don't believe Nazism appeared until the 1920's or 30's. Although both movements shared an ethnocentric view of the world, I don't think we can blame Zionists' racism on the Nazis. It is true that in the aftermath of WWII and the holocaust world-wide sympathy for the Jews propelled the creation of Israel and Palestine's catastrophe. What is truly shocking for me is how easily zionist leaders were willing to sacrifice their own people to pusue their ideology of creating an exclusively Jewish state. "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children in Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second."-Ben Gurion.
'He still can’t accept that the Zionist movement has graduated to Jewish National Socialism.'
He knows it subconsciously I'd say but can't consciously accept it. He avoids threads with graphic representations of Palestinian suffering and/or Israeli racism, discrimination or sheer mindless violence. They might force him to trim his Zionist sails.
'Or rather, that Judeo-fascists no longer have to wear their masks.'
It is astonishing the extent to which Jews feel free to say really quite outrageous things, very often flat out lies about Israel, and expect to get away with it. Sadly, they do on most occasions.
For an antipodean example, check the video of this discussion on Australian national TV, from 20:40 to about 32:40 (use the iView option):
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/video.htm
It includes indoctrinated young Jewish guys (boybots) asking pre-written talking point-style questions of the great crusading journalist John Pilger (listen to his rave and tell me it could happen on a major US network)
But it sadly also shows the self-censorship of both politicians and journos on this issue. Pollie Craig Emerson slides around manfully without ever actually criticising Israel, but what's really alarming is the performance of the journos.
One, Rachel Weisser is Opinion Editor for Rupert Murdoch's Australian. She manages to tell several flat-out falsehoods in her two spiels, with only Pilger showing enough gumption to call her on them.
Especially disappointing though is the performance of Peter Hartcher, the Political Editor for the Sydney Morning Herald, who starts confidently in his rebuttal of Ms Weisser but seems to get cold feet halfway thru, and flounders so badly he needs to be rescued by fellow paanel members, wwho helpfully make a joke to ease him past his discomfiture.
Hartcher is one of the Herald journos who went out on strike in the last few days, to protest the axing of some 550 jobs at Fairfax, the parent company. He spoke robustly about all that, but couldn't open up on Israel. Telling.
It was the Herald that recently decided not to run the final piece by veteran MidEast correspondent Ed O'Loughlin, which made some criticisms of Israel.
And the gatekeepers wonder why we're leaving them in droves.
sorry, above link s/be:
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/qanda/txt/s2343064.htm
Self-talk.
Glenn, that was an amazing clip. You could almost think you were watching a parody of MSM coverage of Israel, except it was for real. (Although I'm not sure "real" is the right word for Ms. Weisser.)
I sensed that the audience (excluding the hasbarists) really knew exactly what was going on up there on the stage. Some day the whole house of cards is going to collapse.
Talk-self.
Grasshopper.
What are you muttering about now, Witty? Why don't you just drop the whole Zionist-identity thing and go back to being a hippy? As flaky as it is, at least its not murderous.
curious about grasshopper.
madrid, my correspondent was a gentile, and i have seen that some of them use the word "goyim" a little bit ironically. i think he was doing same, phil
"Grasshopper" was me, doing my imitation of Richard doing his imitation of David Carradine.
I would have thought it was obvious. :)
Aha! a rare concrete instance of the subliminal talk the monkey always captures on the airwaves. Brrr…
' "Grasshopper" was me, doing my imitation of Richard doing his imitation of David Carradine. '
Ah. Then I will interpret Witty's bizzare "Self-talk. Talk-self" gibberish as a public acknowledgement that he hears Zionist voices in his head, poor thing. But what about all those descendents of murdered Russians who hear anti-Semitic voices in theirs? Or Palestinians? Isn't their angst as valid as Witty's? Or is legitimate historical grievance a concept only to be employed on behalf of Jewish wars, but never wars against them? If organized Jewry wants one, it will inevitably get both. Call it God’s law, if that’s how you relate.
Whoever posted "talk-self" grasshopper was not me.
I did post "self-talk", as in talking only to those that agree with you prejudicially.
Jews definitely don't prefer living among gentiles like Ed above.
They convince us to become Zionists and DEFEND Israel.
Sword is right about your affect Ed. If your voice is widely read (thankfully not), the affect would be to greatly increase the membership and vehemence of AIPAC.
Witty wrote: “If your voice is widely read (thankfully not), the affect would be to greatly increase the membership and vehemence of AIPAC.”
—–
And what is the effect of the widely read Jewish Zionist voices of the Neocons and Neolibs, and the effect of the policies they have initiated and carried out? They have greatly increased the vehemence of opposition to organized Jewry, currently expressed as opposition to Zionism, later, inevitably, to be expressed as opposition to “the Jews” in general.
Don’t try to scapegoat critics of Zionist/Neocon/Neolib policies for a phenomenon a corrupt faction of organized Jewry itself has created in partnership with corrupt gentiles. Again, its akin to scapegoating Muslims for the blowback of policies initiated and carried out by money-corrupted Washington.
But that seems to be the modus operandi of a certain class of human beings of both Jewish and gentile origin: going around the world instigating trouble, pinning the blame elsewhere, and pointing to the trouble as validation for ratcheting up even more trouble, the whole time financially profiting from the turmoil, and selling the entire package under the fearmongering auspices of “national security.” And then, to add insult to injury, accusing those who identify the whole evil enterprise of being the root-source of the problem. Unbelievable.
I really have no idea how you systemic fascists live with yourselves. It’s all so conscious and calculated, there’s really no accurate description of it other than “premeditated evil.” Thankfully, the evil ones are all coalescing around Zionism, which makes them easier to identify.
'I sensed that the audience (excluding the hasbarists) really knew exactly what was going on up there on the stage.'
Oh yes indeed. The sayanim probably thought the cold silence they were treated to was evidence of antisemitism, thereby strengthening their resolve. They had plenty of resolve, but nothing resembling a decent, let alone plausible argument. My impression was that their strident partisanship on behalf of another sovereign nation (and their implicit dismissal of the rights of the Palestinian indigenes) didn't sit well with the natives present, most of whom have probably said sorry to Australia's Aborigines and supported land rights for them.
They did shake everyone up though, Hartcher being only the most obviously uncomfortable. Even the unflappable host Tony Jones was lost for words at the end as he switched gratefully to another topic.
The Zio-bots put me in mind of something, but I can't decide whether it was Communist Chinese or Nazi Germany apologists. Or maybe door-knocking evangelists. All spear-carriers for an ideology have that same mad, hectoring tone, the same demand that you accept their warped apprehension of the world.
To think that Rachel Weisser is the OPINION EDITOR of Australia's only national daily.. well, I'm not surprised I suppose, but I am still capable of being shocked.
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