Underscoring Jack Ross's point below, here is the Independent reporting on tomorrow's mayoral election in Jerusalem:
Any last shred of pretence that the election is anything other than
tribal warfare between the ultra-Orthodox and secular collapsed when
the rabbi, Meir Porush, 53, suggested to supporters that a vote for him
would be part of an ongoing ultra-Orthodox takeover of all of Israel's
cities.
"Within 10 years there will not be a secular candidate
at all in any city, except maybe in an abandoned village," he said. The
father of 12 made the comment in Yiddish last week, but unbeknown to
him, the remarks were being recorded and were later aired on Israeli
television with Hebrew subtitles, harming his effort to win over
secular voters.
How soon before the secular Jews understand that they need modern democracy, they need Arabs, they need guarantees of minority rights and separation of church and state. They don't need Zionism…
The ultra-orthodox only listen to their own, if there is ANY question of Torah vs convention.
There are a few messianic movements among the ultra-orthodox. Zionism is NOT generally one of them, but as Israel takes over more and more of the land, more and more of the ultra-orthodox come to believe that these WERE the messianic times.
But, others still regard the forced taking of the land as a shadow of messianic times, rather than a realization.
The reason is that forced taking is INSTEAD of "if you follow My commandments, I will give you the rain in its time", rather than a realization of that.
There is a logic about "God's Will" that I've heard stated by Jews, Christians, Muslims.
That is that what occurred must have been God's will, meaning "right" in some way.
To me, that conflicts with the notion of tikkun olam, which puts the state of the world in our responsibility, that grand historical events are NOT where the majority of God's will occurs, but in the intimate, in family, in friendship, in community.
Politics is the terrain where history is the measure.
Community is the terrain where people are the measure.
Where does organized religion fit?
How soon before the secular Jews understand that they need modern democracy, they need Arabs, they need guarantees of minority rights and separation of church and state. They don't need Zionism…
Phil, I think the Hasids will have a much easier time adjusting to a one-state solution than the seculars.
The Haredi explosion is a crack in the foundation of Zionism. It strikes right at the heart of the secular and state parts of a "secular monoethnic state".
This is a bigger threat to the secular Ashkenaz securocrats than the Arabs. Might not make things pretty, but it's going to move the ball in directions you'd never have believed.
From wikipedia:
He retained his seat in both the 2003 and 2006 elections, but has not served in the cabinet since 2003. In 2005 he caused controversy by saying that then PM Ariel Sharon reminded him of Benito Mussolini.[1] He has also called for Israel to give up its nuclear weapons.[2]
Really, can this guy be all bad?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Porush
Richard,
Please clarify your statement for me, if you would. Specifically, I'm interested in who "our" refers to. Is it humanity, or just Jewish people?
"To me, that conflicts with the notion of tikkun olam, which puts the state of the world in our responsibility, that grand historical events are NOT where the majority of God's will occurs, but in the intimate, in family, in friendship, in community."
"Our" (in my usage) refers to all human beings, but assertively Jews.
The significance of the post was to emphasize the small (intimate and interpersonal) moreso than the political.
One divide between the haredi and the secular Israelis is on that emphasis. The haredi do NOT emphasize the political. There are actually prohibitions against political statements, including internally. They emphasize what IS instructed (a limited specific list) and their separate almost utopian community.
"Where does organized religion fit?"
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "organized religion". There definitely is a shift in character when religious practise shifts from communal to mass.
For example, I've known evangelicals that met only in small groups. The idea of giant churches conflicted with the intimate spiritual and communal experience.
In most denominations of all religions, there is fundamental debate, even among the orthodox (Jewish, Christian and Muslim).
Although Zionism has gradually corrupted the haredim, there are fault lines among the haredim and between haredim and Zionists that can be used to create Jewish intracommunal food fights as part of a strategy to bring about the dismantlement of the State of Israel.
Phil, I think the Hasids will have a much easier time adjusting to a one-state solution than the seculars.
The Haredi explosion is a crack in the foundation of Zionism. It strikes right at the heart of the secular and state parts of a "secular monoethnic state".
This is a bigger threat to the secular Ashkenaz securocrats than the Arabs. Might not make things pretty, but it's going to move the ball in directions you'd never have believed.
This is absolutely right!!!! But Phil's point is well taken too – an ever-growing majority of Jerusalem's Jewish population is Orthodox, and the Arabs could be in the majority as a whole in less than a decade.
Just saying the seculars know just how absurd the idea of an "undivided Jerusalem" is. But indeed, the fact the virtually all of the Orthodox live east of the green line is powerful testimony to the necessity of a one-state solution.
And if this incoming mayor of Jerusalem is far-sighted in this respect, so much the better!
"But indeed, the fact the virtually all of the Orthodox live east of the green line is powerful testimony to the necessity of a one-state solution."
Where did you make that up from?
"Our" (in my usage) refers to all human beings, but assertively Jews.
HOW CONVENIENT! ASSERTIVELY?
It is definitely strange bedfellows though.
Confusing ones, that do NOT fit preconceived definitions.
For one, NOONE knows how the internal discussion of messianic Zionism will resolve. Some regard it as an idolatry (that strong). Others regard it as God's will.
"HOW CONVENIENT! ASSERTIVELY?"
It means that it is natural for human beings to seek good, but it is mandatory for Jews to.
How is possible for you to derive a nefarious interpretation of that?
Please don't tell me that "do-gooders" are bad.
But indeed, the fact the virtually all of the Orthodox live east of the green line is powerful testimony to the necessity of a one-state solution.
Jack Ross probably meant all of the Orthodox residents of Jerusalem live east of the green line.
There are definitely Orthodox neighborhoods in West Jerusalem, but he may be correct, and it is hard to know for sure because not only has State of Israel changed the borders of Jerusalem but different groups and individuals often have their own ideas about the real borders of the city.
To regard it as a duty to repair the world sounds noble. It's almost like the difference between the judaic and christian versions of the
golden rule. Do onto others as you would have them do onto you. Versus Do not do onto others what you would not want done to you.
Just the difference between commission and ommission?
As to being assertive in the in the name of the good for the whole, How about the Greek doctor's oath: First, do no harm?
Russia 1917, and its aftermath.
Germany 1932, and its aftermath.
USA after 9/11, and its aftermath.
Israel 1947-'48, and its aftermath.
Please don't tell med that "do-gooders" are good.
Is it better to walk on worn-out shoes, or engage a bad cobbler to fix them?
Religious mumbo jumbo…the last refuge of the ignorant.
So Martillo is waiting for the supposed "religious-secular split" (which is far less significant than most commentators here seem to think-just recall that the anti-Orthodox Shinui party went from 15 seats in the Knesset down to zero in the 2006 election) to cause a "food fight" which will supposedly "bring down Zionism".
What about the intra-Arab "food fights"? Bloody civil wars in the 30 years in Lebanon, Algeria, Iraq, a Palestinian internal fight between HAMAS and FATAH where HAMAS men took their FATAH brothers prisoner in Gaza, handcuffed them and then threw them off the roof of a multi-story building. Then there are the repressive, corrupt regimes like those of Egypt, Libya and almost all the rest of the Arab world which are holding the Arab people back.
Anon,
Are you one of the idiots here who regard Jews as responsible for the Russian revolution, and for the rise of Naziism, and for 911?
Those are VERY ODD accusations. Perhaps you meant something different.
The question about the relative importance of tikkun olam and how it applies is an ongoing dialog among Jews. In ALL Jewish communities that I've ever encountered, the value and practise of tzedakah (charity) is a given. (There are a few greedy exceptions of course.)
Commitment to community.
You don't like that?
Tikkun Olam “repairing the world” serves merely as public relations cover for organized Jewry to point to in order to throw gentiles off the scent of its supremacist and exclusivist nature and agenda.
Witty: "It means that it is natural for human beings to seek good, but it is mandatory for Jews to."
Witty is now consciously or unconsciously segregating Jews from human beings by implying Jews are morally superior. That's fine. I believe true Christians are morally more evolved than most Jews. But it is conventional wisdom in America today among the cognoscenti and elite that Christians are bigots and that Jews are indeed morally superior, which is why Israel gets a pass for its obscene behavior and is actually underwritten by the current American Establishment. The contemporary American Establishment would never underwrite an explicitly Christian state, and actually encourages war against Orthodox Christian ones (ie Serbia and Russia), and encourages their Islamic enemies (ie Kosovo). It also encourages domestic Jewish enemies of Christianity like Abe Foxman and the ADL by repeatedly siding with them in the courts against cultural Christianity.
Yes jews had a significant role in the Russian revolution – that's not particularly controversial.
It is that jews were involved in 9/11 but no less true.
But apparently that information remains classified by the U.S government.
Did you not know that, Witty?
"It means that it is natural for human beings to seek good, but it is mandatory for Jews to."
Oh? And why's that? And how is it 'mandatory' for jews?
Who says? You?
Its taught to children, that we have an obligation to improve the world.
Its taught to many others besides Jews as well.
Thankfully.
Its also a paranoid description to site the Russian revolution as a "Jewish" enterprise. There were individual Jews involved, and as EVERY movement has origins in many other threads, some Jewish theme was probably there to among the Jewish individuals.
I certainly find the appeal to mine and others' liberation from slavery, reminded annually, to be very compelling.
The Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party was made up as follows:
NAME NATIONALITY
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian
"The Council of the People's Commissars comprises the following:
MINISTRY NAME NATIONALITY
President Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Foreign Affairs Tchitcherine Russian
Nationalities Djugashvili (Stalin) Georgian
Agriculture Protian Armenian
Economic Council Lourie (Larine) Jew
Food Schlichter Jew
Army & Navy Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
State Control Lander Jew
State Lands Kauffman Jew
Works V. Schmidt Jew
Social Relief E. Lelina (Knigissen) Jewess
Public Instruction Lounatcharsky Russian
Religions Spitzberg Jew
Interior Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Hygiene Anvelt Jew
Finance Isidore Goukovski Jew
Press Volodarski Jew
Elections Ouritski Jew
Justice I. Steinberg Jew
Refugees Fenigstein Jew
Refugees (assist.) Savitch Jew
Refugees (assist.) Zaslovski Jew
"The following is the list of members of the Central Executive Committee:
NAME NATIONALITY
Sverdlov (president) Jew
Avanessof (sec.) Armenian
Bruno Lett
Babtchinski Jew
Bukharin Russian
Weinberg Jew
Gailiss Jew
Ganzburg Jew
Danichevski Jew
Starck German
Sachs Jew
Scheinmann Jew
Erdling Jew
Landauer Jew
Linder Jew
Wolach Czech
Dimanstein Jew
Encukidze Georgian
Ermann Jew
Joffe Jew
Karkline Jew
Knigissen Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamenef) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Krylenko Russian
KrassikofSachs Jew
Kaprik Jew
Kaoul Lett
Ulyanov (lenin) Russian
Latsis Jew
Lander Jew
Lounatcharski Russian
Peterson Lett
Peters Lett
Roudzoutas Jew
Rosine Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Stoutchka
That's only part of the list.
Gentiles should not look at facts?
The secret war is over what facts will be given to the masses. In this context, the masses are never Jews, but the Other. Bipolar world is needed by definition. Else, any individual would have to face Reality a la Camus.
Lenin was a hereditary aristocrat of mixed Tatar, ethnic Russian, and Jewish ancestry.
From Saudia in the Gun Sights.
Pipes spoke first and noted that for the first time he was speaking in a hall where he had been a student, for he had attended the lectures of the introductory E. Asian studies class Soc. Sci. 10 in this room.
Pipes pointed out his father Harvard Professor Richard Pipes, who was present in the room and who did quite well as a Sovietologist and Russian studies specialist. Daniel Pipes mentioned that Professor Pipes had asked him back in 1978 how he would make a living from a specialization in Islamic Studies, which at that time period before Khomeini's revolution in Iran seemed like a generally underfunded esoteric academic field.
Of course, nowadays anyone writing books and articles to scare-monger Islam seems to do fairly well, but there is deeper answer to the question.
Both Richard Pipes and Daniel Pipes have effectively chosen the same career of explaining the international menace to the general public and to the US political class, and both have more or less obviously distorted their analysis to fit preferred Jewish Zionist beliefs.
Solzhenitsyn has accused Richard Pipes of writing the Polish history of Russia but generally misses how this version of Russian and Soviet history serves Jewish and Zionist mythology. Even though Richard Pipes concedes in The Russian Revolution that pogroms were hardly confined to Jews in Czarist Russia (as I once challenged him on the issue more than 30 years ago), the Harvard Professor systematically underestimates or diminishes the role that Russian ethnic Ashkenazim played in the overthrow of Czarist Russia and in the establishment of the Soviet Union as well as in the planning and perpetration of the crimes of the latter state.
In The Unknown Lenin Richard Pipes is careful to establish Lenin's status as an hereditary Russian aristocrat but neglects — almost certainly because it is good for the Jews — to mention anything about the new information available after the fall of the Soviet Union about Lenin's Jewish ancestry as recorded in Dmitri Volkoganov's biography Lenin.
Just like his father's scholarship on Russia and the Soviet Union, Daniel Pipes's analysis of Islam, Middle Eastern politics, and the American Muslim community likewise fits perfectly the Neocon agenda of subordination of American interests to those of the Jewish Zionist oligarchy and intelligentsia.
It is racist to declare "Jews were the majority of Marxists, therefore Bolshevism was a "JEWISH" movement".
It is idiotic logic.
As I said, it is laudable that INDIVIDUALS would consider it important enough to take the imagery of "liberation from slavery" to heart in the thousands of ways that different individual Jews did so, and do so.
Phil's sympathy for Palestinians IS that same urge.
We have to wade through that stupidity of logic forever, the hatred of sympathy, the hatred of goodness.
Phil,
Do you get what "intelligent" people conclude from the counting of names?
"Phil,
Do you get what "intelligent" people conclude from the counting of names?"
Phil often talks about counting names. Why ask now?
The Eastern European politics that ethnic Ashkenazim brought to the USA was explicitly ethnic in way that has been unusual in the American experience.
We find parties with names like Polish Socialist, Czech Socialist, Serb Socialist, Macedonian Socialist as well as Rumanian Democratic, Magyar Democratic, or Polish Democratic throughout Eastern Europe with clearly ethnic memberships even or especially in areas where the inhabitants are very mixed ethnically.
Lenin openly stated that he considered the Algemeyner Yiddish Arbeter Bund (the Jewish Bund) his main competitor for membership.
Jewish Bolshevism grew out of a certain type of Jewish politics just like Neoconservatism today.
While Soviet Communism was initially the party of deracinated Russianized populations, the leadership was for the most part ethnic Ashkenazi.
Soviet Communism probably has more similarity to Neoliberalism, which develops out of an epistemic Eastern European Jewish economic culture.
Anyone can be a Friedmanite Neoliberal but the leadership and chief ideologists are Eastern European ethnic Ashkenazim.
Soviet Communism sought dictatorship of the proletariat under the tutelage of Soviet Jewish intelligentsia. Neoliberalism provides the dictatorship of the Jewish Zionist oligarchs under the guidance of Zionist intelligentsia.
In some sense Soviet Communism and Friedmanite Neoliberalism are twisted mirror images of one another.
Both movements even promise the withering away of the state, the former through collectivisation and the latter through privatisation.
However one thinks about it Soviet Communism, Bundism, Friedmanite Neoliberalism, Jabotinskian Neoconservatism, and Zionism all develop out of Eastern European ethnic Ashkenazi political culture.
"However one thinks about it Soviet Communism, Bundism, Friedmanite "Neoliberalism, Jabotinskian Neoconservatism, and Zionism all develop out of Eastern European ethnic Ashkenazi political culture."
And Ashkenzi political culture is a religo-ethnic fundamentalist grouping, which primarily identifies itself through bloodlines, and regards itself as supreme. This makes it an ethnic supremacist ideology, ie fascist. It's employment of "social justice" or "freedom and democracy" rhetoric to justify itself and deceive the gullible (similarly to the way “tikkun olam” is employed), is mere cover to mask its true ideological agenda: institutionalized Ashkenazi Jewish Supremacism. This is self-evident in Israel, where today they only bother with the bare minimum to mask that agenda, and increasingly evident in America, where the supremacist network is having an ever more difficult time concealing itself and its identity.