Adam Horowitz writes:
Day two of the Israeli Gaza assault has begun. The final casualty figures from Day one include at least 230 Palestinians killed and over 800 injured, while one Israeli was killed and 6 injured.
More Israeli air force strikes have begun day two, although the preparations for an Israeli ground assault seem to be in the works. From Ha'aretz: "Hundreds of Israeli infantry and armored corps troops headed for the Gaza border early Sunday in preparation for a possible ground invasion, military officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity under army guidelines."
And that's not the only offensive underway. The Israeli public relations campaign is in full effect. It seems that Defense Minister Ehud Barak has dusted off the play book from the 2006 Lebanon war in explaining why Israel can't accept a cease fire. Barak to Fox News: "For us to be asked to have a cease-fire with Hamas is like asking you to have a cease-fire with al Qaeda. It's something we cannot really accept." And more ominously Barak concluded, "Our intention is to totally change the rules of the game."
For its part, the Bush administration is only too happy to sing from the same song sheet. Gordon Johndroe, a spokesman for the National Security Council, got a bit more colorful in his condemnation of the Palestinians, "These people are nothing but thugs, so Israel is going to defend its people against terrorists like Hamas that indiscriminately kill their own people." Secretary Rice then took the baton and ran with it,
"The United States strongly condemns the repeated rocket and mortar attacks against Israel and holds Hamas responsible for breaking the cease-fire and for the renewal of violence in Gaza," Rice said in a statement. "The cease-fire should be restored immediately. The United States calls on all concerned to address the urgent humanitarian needs of the innocent people of Gaza."
Having learned that it's bad p.r. to argue against a cease fire (See Lebanon, 2006), it seems the U.S. is now trying to get the world to believe that it is actually Hamas that is not observing the cease fire, and that it is Hamas that is actually to blame for over 230 dead Palestinians. Finally, Rice has the gall to express concern for the humanitarian needs of the Palestinian people after helping put the siege in place that has caused a humanitarian disaster leading up to this invasion.
Sadly, this is not a new game at all, and Israel and the US are not changing the rules to anything. Instead they are undertaking yet another round of the murderous game they've been playing for the last eight years, and of course the Palestinians continue to be caught in the middle.
I hope Hamas doesn't allow themselves to be goaded into making stupid decisions. The future freedom of the Palestinian people, and of more importance to me, the health and well-being of my own country, may hinge on their leadership keeping a cool head.
*****************************
Is it good for the Americans?
Colin,
What would constitute a stupid decision by Hamas in your eyes?
There honestly was the possibility of extension of the cease-fire dependant on Hamas deciding to do so.
For a week, Israel did NOT respond militarily to resumption of shelling of Israeli civilian towns.
There is NO "good guy" in this. Hamas is not innocent. It made war.
There are some absolutes. One is that for Gaza to get to be Palestine, the shelling of Israeli civilians must CEASE, and beyond a temporary "cease-fire".
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050459.html
The neighborhood bully strikes again
…
"Blood will now flow like water. Besieged and impoverished Gaza, the city of refugees, will pay the main price. But blood will also be unnecessarily spilled on our side. In its foolishness, Hamas brought this on itself and on its people, but this does not excuse Israel's overreaction."
Witty, remind us, who broke the ceasefire?
actually, it was Islamic Jihad who started the rocket offensive, as retaliation for an air attack on some of their 'operatives'.
Witty has a point. I have always questioned the morality of what we call today the partisans, but were in fact people who engaged in terrorism, who resisted German occupation of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, France, Italy etc. during WWII. The Germans promised to kill civilians if the local terrorists killed any German soldiers. But these partisans, insurgents or terrorists (call them what you will) persisted in resisting occupation. We all know what happened to the inhabitants of Lidice when these people assasinated Heydrich. The moral responsibility for these killings resided on both sides.
Today of course we honor these partisans as heroes and blame the Germans for these massacres. But like I said above, the partisans must share some of the moral responsibility for their actions since they had been warned in advance what would happen if they resisted the occupation. I think those Hamas fighters (insurgents or terrorists, call them what you will) are also morally responsible for the civilians that the Israelis are killing today. Let us not forget that the Israelis, just like their German predecessors, have warned Hamas as to the consequence of their efforts to resist Israeli domination of the Palestinians.
So I believe Witty does have legitimate moral defense for Israel's actions. But history is not fair in these matters, his position will eventually be judged evil, just as the Germans are judged today.
Nov 15, 2008
Yesterday's flurry of hostilities followed nine days of repeated ceasefire violations by both sides that began when Israeli forces entered Gaza Nov. 4 to destroy a tunnel they said was to be used to kidnap Israeli troops. Palestinians responded with rocket fire, and hostilities on both sides have continued.
Israeli strikes have killed 11 Palestinians since Nov. 4.
Syvannen,
Your passive-aggressive spin on Hamas warring, is sad. It KEEPS wrongs continuing.
There will NOT be peace, or any Palestine, in Gaza or the West Bank so long as assaults directed at civilians is the method of "resistance" employed.
The Israeli state has a responsibility to its civilians to act on a state or semi-state that is initiating war.
Even destroying tunnels used for smuggling, weapons and prospectively abduction is a legitimate role of a state, in fact a RESPONSIBILITY of a state.
To interpret that as breaking a cease-fire is Orwellian.
Also,
You guys should read the Haaretz article that I referred to by Gideon Levy.
The "Bully" he was referring to is Israel, not Hamas.
But, who among you would respond with anything but a knee-jerk?
So, lauded MJ Rosenburg refers to the Hamas resumption of hostilities as "suicidal", "borderline insane".
Gideon Levy refers to the Hamas resumption of hostilities as "Hamas brought this on itself".
And, there becomes a political dividing line between those ennablers that blame only Hamas, those that blame Israel and Hamas, and those ennablers that blame only Israel.
***********************************
FROM HAARETZ:
GOC Southern Command: IDF will send Gaza back decades
By Uri Blau
In attacking Hamas' regime in the Gaza Strip, the Israel Defense Forces will try to "send Gaza decades into the past" in terms of weapon capabilities while achieving "the maximum number of enemy casualties and keeping Israel Defense Forces casualties at a minimum," GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant said.
Major General Galant, one of the key figures in the Israeli operation that began Saturday in the Gaza Strip, said this during discussions before the move. Israel's aim in the operation will be to significantly damage Hamas' leadership, tactical capabilities and smuggling routes, he said……
ENTIRE ARTICLE –
link to haaretz.com
/>
Jews hate peace – there is no profit in peace, only in war…thus Jews like war because it is profitable.
Keep in mind that what is happening in Gaza is also a so-called "make up" round for zionists' impotence in Lebanon in July 2006. You see, bloodthirsty serial killers with shattered egos are even more dangerous than ones that are high on the opium of their Pyrrhic victories of 1948 and 1967. This is why we hear them use the same exact wording — such as threats to turn Gaza's clock back by decades — as we heard in July 2006.
As Phil writes, Israel's public relations campaign is out full force. the New York Times and the Washington Post bought it whole hog and have continued to claim that Israel is simply "retaliating" for "thousands" of rocket attacks from Gaza.
But see this revelation from historian Juan Cole (informedcomment 12.28):
"Israel blames Hamas for primitive homemade rocket attacks on the nearby Israeli city of Sederot. In 2001-2008, these rockets killed about 15 Israelis and injured 433, and they have damaged property. In the same period, Gazan mortar attacks on Israel have killed 8 Israelis.
"Since the Second Intifada broke out in 2000, Israelis have killed nearly 5000 Palestinians, nearly a thousand of them minors. Since fall of 2007, Israel has kept the 1.5 million Gazans under a blockade, interdicting food, fuel and medical supplies to one degree or another. Wreaking collective punishment on civilian populations such as hospital patients denied needed electricity is a crime of war.
"The Israelis on Saturday killed 5% of all the Palestinians they have killed since the beginning of 2001! 230 people were slaughtered in a day, over 70 of them innocent civilians. In contrast, from the ceasefire Hamas announced in June, 2008 until Saturday, no Israelis had been killed by Hamas. The infliction of this sort of death toll is known in the law of war as a disproportionate response, and it is a war crime."
And see this from Democrat, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi: "When Israel is attacked, the United States must continue to stand strongly with its friend and democratic ally." (Yahoo 12.28)With friends like these, the U.S. doesn't need enemies.
And where, pray tell, is the Talented Mr. Obama to speak out against Israel's latest "war crime"? He's as silent as the grave. No wonder the grandmother who stood by him went to her grave without him.
Obama's war cabinet is shaping up as a smooth continuation of
Shrub's preventive war doctrine, i.e., that the USA is a special
nation ("exceptionalism") that will always only use force for the good of the world; with a duty to use unilateral military force
to democratize rouge nations and/or entities via regime change. Does this (now eight year model) look familiar?
Re: Gaza, Talk radio has been playing a Jewish American's rhetorical question,
"What would you do if terrorists were lobbing rockets and mortar munitions over the Mexican border?"
All MSM has been repeating Israel's POV incessantly, with no context going beyond HAMAS's pitiful rocket attacks as cause and
effect for what the 5th most deadly military in the world is doing
right now with American made and paid for F-16s and Apache
helicopters.
There is no comment posted today on the op-ed pages of the NY Times or the Washington Post. So I will present my own: "God Damn America, God Damn George Bush and God Damn Israel.
This action is reminiscent of Lebanon.
Both were initiated by militias (not states) that did not recognize Israel nor have any means to communicate directly or indirectly.
So, they do stupid things that leave no room for compromise, and then are angry that a larger state with a larger military, uses it.
How does the violence stop? By stopping the violence.
In the case of Palestine, Hamas is still in a state of civil war with the PA, and still refuses to recognize that any Israel exists.
Wishful thinking is gullible.
Of course the terrorists started it.
Israel had a golden opportunity to reward Hamas for it's scrupulously observed ceasefire over the past six months.
Instead it imposed a cruel blockade on the entire Gaza strip, and carried out a series of provocative military actions.
As usual, Israel showed no sign of wanting peace.
On miserable day, there will be a terrible reckoning for all this.
Dear Mr Witty, It seems apparent to me that recognition of Israel for Hamas has always been "WHICH ISRAEL". The Israel prior to 1967 or the current version. Hamas has spoken clearly on this. They would recognize the former. Also, if they wanted to make the PLO Abbas government stronger they would free Marwan Barghouti.
Piss off to Ipswitch, Woger.
When you've been put on a very strict "diet" you tend to get a light
head after awhile, stumble, grasp whatever your feeble ass can to
strike back at the Goliath barring access to the fridge.
Witty, the latest ceasefire was first broken by Israel on November 4th with a raid that killed six Palestinians. Thereafter, the rockets started up again.
I think if Israel wanted peace it could have had it awhile ago, because Hamas is willing to talk truce. See Chris Hedges:
link to truthdig.com
Israel was wrong from the beginning, and the Palestinians have every right to fight for as long as they wish. The Israelis have to understand that they are not fighting on their own terms. Also, Israel is a thoroughly militarized nation, so showing "rockets" placed near civilian areas means nothing.
It is very sad to see Israeli officials spouting propaganda presented as "special guests" on U.S. news programs. Something has to give.
and just like during world war 2 …..the world sat idly by while the atrocities against a helpless population that is being subjugated and destroyed are allowed and justified.
and the crimes by the perpetrators are justified in the eyes of the power and land greedy perpetrators.
the people of the book are the living joke of our times….only covered up by the myths they themselves create to obfuscate the truths about their true character.
universlism indeed….
The war in Gaza: A vicious folly of a bankrupt government
-From Gush Shalom
Date: 27 / 12 / 2008 Time: 18:57
تكبير الخط تصغير الخط
Aftermath of an Israeli airstrike on the
Gaza Strip, Saturday [Ma'anImages]
Bloodshed and suffering on both sides of the border could have been avoided.
It is possible to return immediately to the ceasefire, make it stronger and firmer.
The war in Gaza, the bloodshed, killing, destruction and suffering on both sides of the border are the vicious folly of a bankrupt government. A government which let itself be dragged by adventurous officers and cheap nationalist demagoguery, dragged into a destructive and unnecessary war which will bring no solution to any problem – neither to the communities of southern Israel under the rain of missiles nor to the terrible poverty and suffering of besieged Gaza.
On the day after the war the same problems will remain; with the addition of many bereaved families, wounded people crippled for life, and piles of rubble and destruction.
The escalation towards war could and should have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid on the night of the US elections two months ago. Since then the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased.
The cycle of bloodshed could and should be broken. The ceasefire can be restored immediately, and on firmer foundations. It is the right of Israel to demand a complete end to shooting on its territory and citizens – but it must stop all attacks from its side, end completely the siege and starvation of Gaza's million and half inhabitants, and stop interfering with the Palestinians' right to choose their own leaders.
Ehud Barak's declaration that he is stopping the elections campaign in order to concentrate on the Gaza offensive is a joke. The war in Gaza is itself Barak's elections campaign, a cynical attempt to buy votes with the blood and suffering in Netivot and Sderot, Gaza and Beit Hanun. Also so-called peace seekers such as Amos Oz s who give this offensive their support and encouragement could not afterwards shrug off responsibility.
Witty at maximum spin.
You have done what was not possible: Become c*nt and ass*ole at the same time.
no doubt will have an unbiased discussion in mainstream media tonight: Wolf blitzer ‘moderating’ a discussion between Livni and Thomas Friedman, with analysis from Bill Kristol. That will help americans get to the bottom of it!
The entire world has condemned this, but Americans continue to be blinded. Then we wonder why people hate us.
Mr Hope and Change couldn't be bothered from his vacation to pass comment.
this could be the start, if the US doesn't change its tune, of the 'big one' which is the only way out of our financial mess besides bankruptcy or hyperinflation. I don't doubt obama and his handlers will opt to become 'FDRii" in more ways than one.
Pictures of Gaza:
link to uruknet.info
"Dear Mr Witty, It seems apparent to me that recognition of Israel for Hamas has always been "WHICH ISRAEL". The Israel prior to 1967 or the current version. Hamas has spoken clearly on this. They would recognize the former. Also, if they wanted to make the PLO Abbas government stronger they would free Marwan Barghouti. "
You have a fantasy about Hamas. It has NEVER recognized 67 borders, or offered to. It considers those borders a temporary cease-fire, just a little longer term than six months.
Hamas is in civil war in Palestine, struggling for its power. As the criticism of Barak parading his military credentials in this election period is accurate, it is also accurate to state that Hamas SEEKS confrontation in order to validate its "leadership".
Nearly, the entire world has condemned Hamas shelling.
It is parallel to Lebanon in 2006, with the same likely results.
In 2006, Hezbollah very naively initiated hostilities, and in much more significant manner than the left acknowledges.
Gush Shalom criticizing the Israeli government for closing a cross-border smuggling tunnel, as "the breaking of the cease-fire", is a bit childish.
The isolation of Gaza is 100 years old, with moderate relaxation mostly when Gaza was annexed. Prior, Gazans HATED Egyptian rule (even Nasser's). And Hamas Gaza is in a state of deferred civil war.
The one point that is definitely valid, is the failure of Israel to respond to Hamas' success at enforcing the cease fire. (Although, every time Israel relaxes its security re: Hamas, Hamas allows or reconvenes shelling of Israeli civilians. It constitutes a GREAT dilemma.)
Complete Bullshit, Witty.
Israel is to blame and you know it – hence the inane multiple postings and CAPITALS.
Israel broke the cease fire – killing Palestinians inside Gaza; it was also supposed to ease restrictions at the borders -which it did not do. And of course, Israel makes A MOCKERY OF IT'S OBLIGATIONS IN THE ANNAPOLIS AGREEMENT, which any objective analysis will reveal.
Settlements continued to be built, Palestinian homes continued to be destroyed.
And yes, as another post mentions, Hamas made it clear it was willing to negotiate with Israel and supported a two state solution in accordance with the will of the Palestinian people.
Hamas has no other recourse. History has shown Israel simply has no desire to give any sovereignty to Palestine at any price. Israel doesn't seek peace – the Palestinians sincerely do. But who would do any differently in those circumstances? And please – western powers kill civilians for no good reason at all, and kill millions more.
So your not so convincing, Richard Witty.
Nor are the rest of you chimps who think that poor Israel has no choice – or that we would do the same.
We wouldn't and we don't.
Richard:
Colin, What would constitute a stupid decision by Hamas in your eyes?
Colin:
I suppose I could have been more clear with that phrase. I am no more pro-Hamas than I am pro-Israel. I view all fundamentalists and terrorists with distaste, Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, or other. I am an AMERICAN PATRIOT. I want want is best for our country. I don't put Palestinian interests above those of my people, and I don't put Israeli interests above those of my people. Hamas are no more terrorist than Israel, i.e., they are both entities that engage in terrorism. It makes no difference to me that Israel is formally recognized as a state, and that Hamas is not. Terrorism is terrorism, murder is murder, torture is torture, rape is rape, crimes against humanity are crimes against humanity, no matter who commits them. Israelis are NOT morally superior. Israelis started this war, on all time scales. They started it in a short term sense in that they violated the recent cease-fire, not Hamas, who responded in kind. Just because the blind, deaf, and dumb 'Grey Lady' says it, does not make it so. Israel also started this war in the long-term sense. When Israelis and American Zionists are called out on the obvious and tedious pattern of Israeli targeted assassinations conveniently timed to disrupt progress towards peace, they like to emphasize the 'tit-for-tat' nature of the conflict to obscure the original sin, which just like the Israeli Lobby in America (until recently, thanks be to God, Mearsheimer, and Walt), is the pink elephant in the room that everyone sees and is embarrassed about, but no one wants to be the first to point out. The Israeli original sin in Gaza is their invasion, occupation, and colonization of Gaza.
Hamas did not appear out of nowhere. In the same way that Israel exists because of the Holocaust, Hamas exists because of the Nakba. Israelis invaded their land. Israelis stole the most arable 40% at gunpoint, and drove Palestinians onto the remaining 60%. Israelis planted colonies on the stolen portion. Israelis cordoned off and isolated the un-stolen portion to prevent Palestinians from attacking the thieves squatting on their land. Do you dispute the accuracy of any of these facts? There is a reason that they have refused to recognize Israel, Israel has refused to recognize that Palestinians are also God's children, and should not be treated like animals.
Israelis are not blameless in this conflict, they are its originators. Any escalation of the conflict is bad for America, because we are very unfortunately shackled to Israel supporting ethnic cleansing in the OPT, and will be blamed for its crimes. The Israeli attack on Gaza has been long prepared, and Hamas' decision to retaliate for the attack on its personnel allowed them to carry it off, hence I call their 'response in kind' a stupid decision because they played right into Israel's plan, and allowed them to ratchet up the violence. Hamas will no more achieve final victory with the gun than will Israel. My definition of a stupid decision is, very admittedly, selfish: any decision that permits either side to escalate the conflict and excite ire against my innocent people, and it is very clear to me that the side to be worried about is Israel.
*******************************************
Richard:
There honestly was the possibility of extension of the cease-fire dependant on Hamas deciding to do so. For a week, Israel did NOT respond militarily to resumption of shelling of Israeli civilian towns.
Colin:
The cease-fire was ending. Hamas was split into two camps, those who wanted it to continue, and those who did not because they very correctly saw that Israel had ceased absolutely none of its non-military attacks (starvation blockade damn sure qualifies as an attack) against Palestinian civilians in exchange for the cessation of hostilities. The ambivalence of Hamas was viewed with alarm by other factions such as Islamic Jihad, who, like the more combative faction in Hamas, correctly saw that they were getting nothing out of it. It was groups other than Hamas who launched the pathetic rocket attacks during the period of argument, trying to present Hamas with fait accompli for continued fighting. Again, there is no evidence that Hamas fired rockets before Israel's attack on its personnel, and Israelis blaming Hamas for them without evidence is some of the most bald-faced, arrogant, self-centered, holier-than-thou bullshit I have ever heard. Can the government of Israel control the extremists in its own jurisdiction, the colonists who with tedious regularity murder, torture, sabotage (burning olive trees), deface gravestones, beat up the elderly, stone schoolchildren, etc, etc? No, they cannot. Neither is it reasonable to expect Hamas, who has far, far less capability to enforce its edict on the extremists in Gaza than does Israel against Jewish extremists in the OPT. After Islamic Jihad and fellow traveler's pathetic few rocket attacks, which killed no one, Israel carried out another targeted assassination against Hamas. ONLY after Israel broke the cease fire in this way did Hamas respond in kind. I hear so many Zionists exclaim, "We have every right to defend ourselves!" Very true, and I recognize that Arabs have exactly the same right. If Israel had wanted peace, they would have continued negotiations with Hamas, who were, after fractious internal deliberation, leaning towards continuing the cease fire. But the Israeli government, and the political factions that run it, do not want peace, and have never wanted peace, except that of master and helot. It is a very ugly truth. I wish it were not so: it is the Palestinians who have no partner with whom to make a just peace, and ruling Israeli political parties are adamantly opposed to their government becoming one.
*******************************************
Richard:
There is NO "good guy" in this. Hamas is not innocent. It made war.
There are some absolutes. One is that for Gaza to get to be Palestine, the shelling of Israeli civilians must CEASE, and beyond a temporary "cease-fire".
Colin:
I agree. There are no 'good guys', there are 'bad guys', and 'worse guys', which is a fantastic reason on moral grounds for our country not to be militarily aiding either side. Hamas did indeed 'make war', and so did Israel. For frak's sake, what do you think NEGOTIATIONS are for? The shelling of Israeli civilians must indeed stop, and so must Israel attacks, however well-cloaked in a veneer of respectability for gullible fools in the West. Again, that is what negotiations are for. Those who sabotage negotiations definitely qualify as 'worse guys'. And all Israelis are not 'bad guys'.
*******************************************
Richard:
In the case of Palestine, Hamas is still in a state of civil war with the PA, and still refuses to recognize that any Israel exists.
Colin:
I agree that civil war is the correct description for the conflict between Hamas and the PA, which is a Western construct for giving international recognition to Fatah. However, it is vital to understand how this civil war came about. Hamas was attempting to form a coalition government after being democratically elected. Some American Zionists were appalled at the notion of Hamas assuming, not just power, but responsibility. Read the "The Gaza Bombshell" for more details at link to vanityfair.com
Israel has refused to recognize Hamas, why should it reciprocate? This is yet another example of the double-standard Zionists use that someone like me who has no connection with either side easily sees. Again, the only path for mutual recognition is negotiation. The assumption of the responsibility for governance, for being stewards of the Palestinian people, has tempered Hamas. This is not my observation. A good reference to get started in understanding the evolution of their thinking is "Hamas takes step towards recognition of Israel". link to independent.co.uk
Richard, I know many on this forum will disagree, but I think that you are genuinely interested in a just peace, i.e., not one of master and helot. However, I do not think that you are making the kind of effort necessary to understand the other side, which is a prerequisite to making it happen. I am not claiming that my analysis is flawless, indeed, if I am certain about anything, it is that I have made mistakes. And while I strongly believe that this mess can be laid directly on the doorstep of two millennia of violent anti-semitism culminating in the Holocaust, Zionists are not blameless for allowing it to fester. Acknowledging the 'original sin' in the creation of Israel at Palestinian expense does not, despite what I suspect is a deep fear of many Zionists, delegitimize the Israeli state. Israel is a reality, no one can destroy it but the Israelis themselves. The continued ethnic cleansing is doing just that, and is a rot that will soon go septic unless the infected portion, the colonies, are cut off. Honesty and humility are universally admired qualities. Israel can make peace with its Arab neighbors. It is foolish to insist that every Arab be on board. Islamic Jihad and other extremists, over several decades of a just peace, will fade away into irrelevance like the Ku Klux Klan in our own country. Zionists must take some responsibility, despite the fundamental original impetus of Nazi mass murder for the creation of Israel, for there to be a just peace that will allow its existence to be recognized in spirit, not just on some piece of paper. And I damn well want this to happen, because the security of America is at stake.
It just occurred to me while rereading my last post that the notion expressed in the sentence
"Neither is it reasonable to expect Hamas, who has far, far less capability to enforce its edict on the extremists in Gaza than does Israel against Jewish extremists in the OPT."
makes Israeli targeting of Gazan police make more sense. They are trying to destroy Hamas' ability to impose their will on Islamic Jihad and other factions who are opposed to peace on any terms. This would of course greatly facilitate their propaganda campaign in the West.
This is but a small taste of what is ahead. Coming to a place near you: courtesy of the chosen.
"It makes no difference to me that Israel is formally recognized as a state, and that Hamas is not. "
It should make a difference, as different entities have different legal and moral responsibilities.
"Israelis started this war, on all time scales. They started it in a short term sense in that they violated the recent cease-fire, not Hamas, who responded in kind. "
This is false. BOTH Israel and Hamas self-defined the cease-fire terms. Hamas insisted that the cease-fire agreement included permanent and unconditional opening of the borders. (Israel regarded that as conditional on 0 shells by anyone.) Israel defined the cease-fire terms as applying to Hamas to not prepare for subsequent military actions against Israel, which Israel discovered was not occurring.
The CHOICE of describing "he broke the cease-fire first, and therefore we can break it further", is that a CHOICE, a very subjective interpretation.
IF the tunnel was the break, then 10 rockets deep into the desert would have been more rational communication. It didn't happen that way. What happened was that Hamas (YES, HAMAS) fired rockets and was not confronted militarily, for a solid week.
Livni rationally declared "enough". It was "enough".
Hamas IS at war with Israel. It seeks an Israeli response. That is one of its means of fighting war.
The WHOLE military exchange is stupid.
My sense is that Israel DOES accept Hamas governing Gaza, IF Hamas stops warring and preparing for warring on Israeli civilians.
Livni said as much today.
What you "see" is not perfectly clear, as it does NOT outline a path.
As I've said to Phil a few dozen times, peace is 100 yards away, across a chasm in which constructing a bridge is impossible.
But, there is a chasm down the road, less obvious, less gratifying, than hoping that one can cross the close one that one can "see".
Israel shouldn't have been defining those terms anyway – well, they aren't defined actually, and now appear to be subjectively applied in order to justify bullying, and now killing Palestinians.
So should Hamas have made the same stipulation: that Israel discontinue it's weapons production and refrain from drawing up plans to attack Gaza? Witty would say no. Well, he might say yes to play the game- but he wouldn't believe it.
Are you not able to see the flagrant hypocrisy and racist ideology behind your support for Israeli aggression? I say what matters is a fair agreement based on mutual respect that is observed and agreed upon by BOTH parties.
Witty – you need some serious deprogramming. Because that's what you sound like: a brainwashed robot who just repeats the same party line, regardless of the data you try to load into it. For me it's apparent from the way structure your sentences and the style you use when defending utter nonsense,that you don't really believe what you are saying anyway….
You don't have a clue StevieB.
When you consistently express concern for Israeli civilians, instead of providing PR cover for Hamas terror, then there will be some dialog as to attempting to find better means to accomplish mutual decency.
I'll express concern for Israeli civilians when Israel decides to seriously start working for peace and not stealing more land, and lying like there's no tomorrow.
Just like I would have been concerned for German civilians when the Third Reich had been brought down. I'm sure you'd understand it if it was put that way.
Don't see it with your beloved Israel mythology- do you Witty?
Eastern palestinians are condemning their brethren in the south. The egyptians are condemning the gazans.
And so I ask, who are you to condemn Israel?
Hamas was told over and over again, stop firing those damn rockets and they did not. Now- they pay.
It's time to educate yourself on whats been going on prior to the 27th's "massacre".
Just because Israel knows they're weaponry doesn't make them any more "vicious" than the Palestinians who attempt to kill israelis on a daily basis but due to their lack of weaponry knowlege and poor aim, only hit open fields.
Israel's attacks are aimed at buildings that house ammunition, hamas operatives and the innocent who get in the middle choose to stay where they are. The israeli army announces prior to attacking so that civilians can evacuate the targeted buildings, but instead, they choose to go up to the roofs and act as human shields for the silly terrorist organisation that has promised to make their lives better by giving their jobs, money and food, but instead uses them for its own selfish adventure to re-capture Palestine. Accept it, it's been around long enough. Or suffer.