My headline's a fabrication. Sorry, you got me redhanded. Here's an interesting thread on a Jewish site about the superior attitudes toward "goyim" that are inculcated in Hebrew schools and other Jewish settings. One woman, Stephanie, says she took her kid out of Hebrew school because the attitudes reminded her of Nazis. Huh. Another woman relates my experience: growing up with a superior attitude then going off to a wider world and kinda liking them, then wanting to mingle my finances. I've observed before on this site that some non-Jews have taken on the word goyim--in an age when Jews proliferate in the power centers of society, from media to finance to Clinton foundation to Ponzi schemes, and some gentiles feel like outsiders--the way blacks took on the word nigger. I could get all pious about this... Merry Christmas!
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IMO the belief that people are collectively "different inside" is an irrational extension of the quite rational need for people to collectively belong.
Er, Amen.
Phil,
Are you familiar with what Barack Obama's church taught? You know, the one he was a member of his entire adult life?
Isnât inculcating fear and loathing how any given community, belief system or ideology maintains cohesion? Even left-liberal âuniversalistsâ inculcate fear and loathing of outsiders, or of those with whom they disagree. Christians are âbigotsâ and âhomophobesâ; opponents of socialism are âselfishâ; opposition to affirmative action is âracistâ; for a long time, according to the liberal establishment, opposition to Zionism was âanti-semitic.â But as it turns out, Jews are among the most intolerant, heavy-handed bigots out there. And when it comes to Christians, anti-socialists dissidents, and advocates of traditional Western civilization and Americaâs heritage of strictly limited government, left-liberal are extreme, heavy-handed bigots, too.
Without the force of law behind it, bigotry is relatively harmless, and may in fact be a means of cultural continuity. But when Jews institutionalize their bigotry in the form of Zionism, or left-liberals instututionalize their bigotry through affirmative action, politically correct speech codes and a general state-sponsored, court-enforced hostility to Christianity, each takes it to a different, and higher, level.
Left-liberals exhibit, every single day, the same kind of intolerant, warped thinking that has led to the Zionist problem. The State should always be neutral, and a moderating influence within the parameters of the civilization it serves, not a means to jam some foreign, alien ideology down the âothersââ throat.
Whenever there is a word for people not like yourself other than "non-…", it leaves a sour taste.
This goes not only for the Jewish word "goyim", but also for the Japanese "gaijin". I also think the Chinese have a similar word.
Jews should call non-Jews exactly that, "non-Jews".
Goyim never bothered me even though I knew the Jews meant it in a derogatory way. I suppose that is because I never cared to be a Jew nor to be accepted by the them.
Phil, your contempt for the goyim is showing and a Merry Chrismukkah, to you.
@Philip Weiss:
Since English is not my native language, could you point out to me the difference between the words "goyim" and "gentile"?
Oh and don't listen to "Laurie". I don't believe you have contempt for Gentiles, and it certainly doesn't show if you have. You are open about you feelings, even if you're not entirely sure about them, and I greatly admire that!
Me: I believe "gentile" is the Greek translation for "goyim," which literally means "of the [non Jewish] nations."
In of itself, (like "foreigner") it is in no way derogatory, although it could be used so, i.e. "that dumb foreigner," "that dumb goy."
It's an important word in Jewish theology. Kids in Hebrew school need to learn that the laws of Shabbat apply to Jews, but not to the Goyim, etc.
@David F:
Thank you for the explanation. Now am I right to assume that anglophon Gentiles use the word "gentile", whereas Jews use the word "goyim"?
Plus, you spoke of goyim having importance for Jewish religion. I respect that and wouldn't want religious Jews to change the word in religious discourse. But do secular Jewish institutions which deal with the broader society use the word "gentile" or the word "goyim" in their communications?
I read a great "ask the rabbi" piece awhile back (that I cannot find again for some reason) where he said that since it is meant most often in a derogatory fashion that Jews should not use it because they know better.
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n. Offensive., pl. goy·im (goi'Äm) or goys.
Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew.
[Yiddish, from Hebrew gôy, Jew ignorant of the Jewish religion, non-Jew.]
goyish goy'ish adj.
Why not try reading the (non-redacted, English version of the Talmud sometime? Or simply read Philip Roth's novels.
You can add terms like shika and shaggot (sometimes spelled differently). Try schwartze, too.
Phil has moved past those old slurs, classically entrenched. Many Jews have not. I use to visit a condo hi-rise in Chicago a lot. In the elevator lots of the people spoke yiddish. They didn't realize
I could understand them because I knew German.
Phil is dead right. A growing number of Gentiles refer to themselves as "goys" for the same reason American Blacks use the term "niggah" amongst themselves.
It's a way of taking control, if only personally, and only between your friends, from your common oppressors.
It has everything to do with the current powers that be.
A similar thing has been happening with "redneck" and "whigger."
I've never been called, or been offended by, the word goyim. I just looked it up in a dictionary, which says it is 'often disparaging'. Am I supposed to be offended because some dictionary tells me so? In my opinion labels are derogatory when they are meant to be, and can lose their 'effectiveness' if the labeled aren't bothered. I think that the reaction of the labeled and the perception of the reaction of the labeled by the labelers, in large part determines what 'kick' the labeler gets from using a slur. You called me what!?! Strike one, LoL, try again. :)
I worked for a older black lady, and she used to call me 'honky'. (I am white.) I instantly realized that I was supposed to be offended. (Wasn't I!?!) I wasn't, and I realized later that it was because there was no hostility in her voice or body language. I thought it was really weird, because I was brought up to believe that racial slurs were categorically hateful, and the lack of hostility through me for a loop. I chalked it up at the time as her being a 'character'. Reflecting on this now, I think that she had no expectation of a hostile reaction from me; she wasn't baiting me. I have no doubt had I sensed hostility, my reaction would have been vastly different, and her understanding of the 'power' of the word, with respect to causing an emotional response in others, would also have been different. I am definitely guessing here, but she may have been raised in an environment where 'honky' was part of an accepted vocabulary for differentiating between 'them' and 'us', and that it didn't necessarily have to be derogatory. I suspect language structures (this set of words means this when expressed in this way, and means that when expressed in that way) for us/them differentiation likely exist in all cultures that feel themselves under threat in some way, even in majorities like white southerners who have no cause to feel threatened. Perhaps the 'structures' change over time reflecting the perceived need for nuances in expressed hostility, and the degree of racism, if any, imbued in a word like 'goyim' can vary.
I had a disturbing conversation in San Diego during summer training when I was a Midshipman. I was talking to a Marine Corps-option guy about something work-related. I don't remember exactly what the discussion was about, but I was really enthused and used an expression something like "Oh boy, I can't wait to try that!" This guy, who is black, went ballistic and screamed something like "Don't you ever call me that again!" and stormed off, and wouldn't give me the time of day after that. I know I can be really slow sometimes (I blame the ADD), for many years later out of the blue it hit me: he thought I was calling him "boy". We all knew where the other guys were from, and so he knew I was from the south, and he interpreted "boy" as a slur because that was what he expected to hear out of my mouth. He was not from the South. I grew up and spent a lot of years there, and I expect I have heard most racial epithets that whites use when talking amongst themselves, and I have only heard "boy" a couple of times, and then only by people over 70, with DOB ~1920. I suspect that the term is now mostly archaic, although I don't doubt that it is stilled use by some. I realize that my experiences are undoubtedly biased because my family and friends were almost certainly not representative of 'average' Southerners, if that term even has much utility describing a society that has transformed so radically over the last 50 years (higher order moments are now necessary). Anyway, my point, however muddled it may have been articulated, is that one shouldn't hasten to draw conclusions from use of language without evaluating the context.
Anon, I noticed your last post right after I posted mine. Your experiences 'eavesdropping' are very interesting. There is probably no better way to assess what people really mean when they think only the like-minded are listening. This reminds me of the enormous influence that Haaretz has had in America by publishing in English as well as Hebrew. If I were Palestinian, I would start translating into English and distributing selections from Hebrew-only wingnut publications, where the JNF'ers speak without code because they think they their comments won't reach unintended audiences. Fear of embarrassment has a tendency to constrain misbehavior.
What I would like, when Jews refer to me, as being non-Jewish, would be to refer to me as a "Christian". It would certainly do for most references to non-Jews in the US.
I am a "secular humanist" or "humanist universalist" who was raised Catholic. My complaint about goyim is that it masks a bigoted view, as when a skinhead refers to "mud people" (i.e. darker skinned humans).
I think the proof of this view of superiority is the phrase "goyishe kopf," (literally gentile head/"brains" but meaning "stupid as the goyim").
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