A smart friend writes:
Does some significant part of the attraction to torture among American policy
and intelligence elites emanate from a wised-up/tough/glamorous idea of torture
whose source is Israel?
A current blog by Martin Peretz speaks of torture as by no means necessarily a
bad thing. Several years ago, c. 2004, at the NYU Remarque Center, a visiting
Israeli scholar observed to an American historian after a talk on human rights,
"I have concluded there is no point talking to you Americans about torture–
your attitude is not serious." He meant the attitude of American liberals such
as could be found at the Center. Israelis, he implied, knew in their bones that
torture was necessary. The remark was passed on by the American, whom it deeply
impressed–he thought it a salutary rebuke, a piece of worldly wisdom. How many
share this double perspective?
Note that, though the Israeli Supreme Court outlawed torture in 1999, the
reports of Israeli torture of Palestinians have been drastically persistent.
This BBC story serves as a reminder that the first confirmed reports of
the severity of Israeli torture of Palestinians emerged in 2000, and referred to the First Intifada, 1988-1992: the period of the emergence of American
"hyperpower" neoconservatism, with its impartial interest in all the stratagems
of aggression and coercion.
I believe Israel is the only country in the history of the world where a democratic populace formally endorsed the state's use of torture against "others." And although it's true that the Supreme Court did eventually (and in the face of much world pressure) strike down the law, it's still the case that Israel is the only nation in the world with a majority of the population supporting torture.
Sadly, one can't use the experience of terrorism to explain Israel's unique status, as many other countries in the survey have had to endure terrorism.
Information about torture and abuse by the GSS and the ISA is available at the website for B'Tselem — the Israeli Information Center on Human Rights in the Occupied Territories [Background / ISA interrogation regime / "Special" methods / Failure to investigate complaints / International law / High Court of Justice Ruling / UN Convention against Torture / Related updates / Related testimonies / Related publications / Related photographs ]. See: http://www.btselem.org/english/Torture/Index.asp
Additional information is available at the website for The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel: http://www.stoptorture.org.il/en [including news of the recent report (4/9/09) by PCATI and the World Organization Against Torture (OMCT): "This report complements the List of concerns submitted by PCATI to the Committee in September 2008. It illustrates illegal methods of interrogation that comprise torture, and substandard conditions of detention that constitute cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment, that are employed by both the General Security Service (GSS) and the Israeli army. All of these are contrary to the obligations of the State of Israel under the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.
The report also includes a description of the most serious of the violations of the Convention that occurred during the "Cast Lead" operation in Gaza, and particularly the inhuman conditions that detainees from Gaza were held in during the operation and cases of ill treatment, delay of medical care and the use of civilians as human shields."] — http://www.stoptorture.org.il/en/node/1414
I picked up on this right after 9/11 when Dershowitz wrote that torture was necessary. I immediately saw this as his attempt to get the US on Israel's side on the torture issue; and saw it as giving absolution to those US politicians, like Cheney who had no real experience in getting information out of people but who don't want to appear weak.
Of course, it's a lot more appealing to torture people if you think they are dirt.
I had assumed it was obvious along with the collective punishment the US utilized in Iraq and now in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The destruction of Fallujah was textbook Israeli.
Exactly. I'm surprised Phil didn't mention this:
Legal Torture? (60 Minutes, Sept 20, 2002)
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/17/60minutes/main324751.shtml
In a 60 Minutes report, Dershowitz tells Correspondent Mike Wallace that torture is inevitable. “We can’t just close our eyes and pretend we live in a pure world,” he says.
I'm detecting a lot of negativity in the comments. So I'd like to mention the Pentium chip, and productivity-enhancing software solutions.
afterdowningstreet.org has this:
A guard at Abu Ghraib prison displays his tattoo. The Tattoo of the Israeli flag and the scorpion graphically demonstates the link between the Israelis and the US in the brutal torture that is occurring in Iraq.
Looks like html image tags are not working in the new format so here's the link to the photo:
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/10497
Among the pictures that came out about the torture in Iraq was one of a torturer that had a Star of David tattooed on his arm. In the picture he was holding his shirt sleeve up showing off the tattoo.
It has already been established in news reports that a group of former Israeli Defense Force and Shin Bet Arabic-speaking interrogators were hired by the Pentagon under a classified sub-contract. The primary companies hired were Titan Corporation and CACI. CACI was run by a former Israeli and obviously brought in some Israelis to get their jollies torturing Arabs. The torturer at Abu Ghraib singled out in in the report of General Antonio Taguba was John Israel, employed by CACI and also by Titan. US security clearances are required for employment as an interrogator…Israel didn't have one… and wouldn't you know it…he totally disappeared from the face of the earth when the torture stories broke and not even Sy Hersh could find him.
The influence isn't hypothetical. Read pages 30, 31 of the "2002 techniques memo" from the Office of Legal Counsel to Attorney General Gonzales.
The best and the brightest of the Israeli Supreme Court came to the conclusion that it can be "cruel and inhuman" but not be torture. The memo says the European Court of Justice believes the same.
A great stride forward for mankind.
Has Israel served as a bad influence on torture policy? Events appear to support the contention that Israel serves as a bad influence on US foreign policy in general. Definitely so in regard to the torture policy, as well as The Patriots Act, and targeted assassination from drone aircraft (which Israel also has marketed to other countries, confronting one with the spectre of such tools being used in internecine struggles.)
In response to the world-view of Israel's rules of warfare, I would like to offer: http://www.terraplexic.org/indexsymposium2/ Cities and the Scientific Way of Warfare and Urbicide: The Politics of Urban Distruction. http://www.terraplexic.org/indexsymposium3/
Different views regarding actions by the State of Israel are forming in new arenas. Obama brought to the game some very competent minds – I haven't checked to see if this group is supported as part of the Obama administration's outreach to the population, but appreciate the service CTLab provides greatly.
"On September 13, 2003, Alyssa Peterson tragically ended her life. The third female soldier to die in Iraq since the invasion, Alyssa was a devout Mormon who had served a mission in the Netherlands. Shortly after her religious service, Alyssa volunteered to serve in the military. She was adept at learning languages and was sent to Arabic training school. Alyssa later volunteered to go to Iraq in place of another who did not want to go.
It was about this time in a conference room at the Pentagon that Donald Rumsfeld, frustrated from a lack of good intel, ordered the military to “gitmo-ize the situation" in Abu Ghraib and Iraq. Results of which we have all seen in the photos and videos that emerged from Abu Ghraib. It was in this situation that Alyssa Peterson, then serving in Tal-Afar, Iraq, found herself shortly before her death. We know that “Peterson objected to the interrogation techniques used on prisoners. She refused to participate after only two nights working in the unit known as the cage. Army spokespersons for her unit have refused to describe the interrogation techniques Alyssa objected to. They say all records of those techniques have now been destroyed. …" After a confrontation with superiors, she was put on suicide watch and assigned to guard a gate. Alyssa “avoided eating with her interrogation team and spent time reading at her desk when she did not have other assignments.” Shortly thereafter, Alyssa was found dead in a field with her service rifle in the grass next to her.
“The reactions to the suicide were that she was having a difficult time separating her personal feelings from her professional duties. That was the consistent point in the testimonies, that she objected to the interrogation techniques, without describing what those techniques were.” We may never know the specific reasons Alyssa ended her life because the government is yet to release her suicide note. What we do know however is that Alyssa who had spent 18 months of her life preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to complete strangers, seeing them as children of God was later placed into a situation where she was asked to treat human beings as objects and torture them. Perhaps she felt as Kayla Williams, a fellow soldier who talked to Alyssa one week before her death and also protested the techniques used at Tal-Afar, when she stated the real problem with such techniques is that it, “made me question my humanity and the humanity of all Americans. It was difficult and to this day, I can no longer think I am a really good person and will do the right thing in the right situation."
In perhaps an even stranger irony, these techniques she was asked to perform were in part reverse engineered by two Mormons known in the CIA as the “Mormon mafia.” James Mitchell and Bruce Jessen were part of a classified group known as SERE that trained US soldiers to withstand interrogation techniques. Mitchell and Jessen were handpicked to reverse engineer communist interrogation techniques and teach them to CIA interrogators. These techniques included waterboarding, stress positions, sleep deprivation, and others. It was with the capture of Abu Zubaydah in March of 2002 that Mitchell and Jesse had their first chance to use their “enhanced” interrogation techniques."
http://www.themormonworker.org/articles/issue3/dont_torture_in_my_name.php
Bullshit. CACI (which is a public company) is and was run by the following people: Paul Cofoni, president and CEO; Randall Fuerst, COO; Dr. J.P. London, Chairman. None of these people are, to the best of my knowledge Israelis or even Jews.
Re. the great discovery of the main torturer at Abu Ghraib was named "John Israel". Let me fill you in on something: if you look in the phone book you're likely to find a bunch of people with the suname "Israel". I'm willing to bet that the majority of these aren't even Jewish.
My suggestion to you is to look a bit closer to home. Who, after all, would speak Arabic fluently and be familiar with much cruder forms of torture than even the shabak or mossad? Why, of course, former members of the Iraqi Ba'athist mukhabarat!
Make that: a bad influence on the world's view of international relations.
More info about Alyssa Peterson http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/us-soldier-killed-herself_b_190517.html
Kayla Williams, to whom Mitchell refers as having talked with Peterson shortly before her death, is a vet who refused to participate in the activity now under question, after a two day introduction to what was expected of her. Her post regarding torture at HP, crossposted to
http://vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2685 contains a link to a Stanford experiment which provides information IMO important to those who continue to support Israel's actions against the Palestinians. http://www.prisonexp.org/
Alyssa Peters killed herself; Kayla Williams lived to blog about what even observing the infliction of torture does to an individual.
This is what I stand defiant against: not in my name is such an action taken, nor, I would hope, in yours, Richard Witty. I consider the perfidy of such actions to be equal to anything the "terrorists" might come up with, no matter how many people might be killed. Actions such as this, which betray the ideals of the nation on behalf of which they supposedly are taken, undermine the nation itself.
I remember an article in 2002-03 in the Atlantic about the appropriate policy on interrogations, including torture, which indulged in a lot of adulation of Israeli methods of interrogation-with-pressure:
"I'll tell you how to make a man talk," a retired Special Forces officer says. "You shoot the man to his left and the man to his right. Then you can't shut him up."
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200310/bowden
That's exactly what the key SS officer did in Shindler's List.
@ JES
The only translator identified in the Taguba report is John Israel, supposedly a "contract translator" employed by the Titan Corp. Mr. Israel is furthermore described as not having a security clearance, an unusual condition for someone in his position – unless, of course, he's not an American, in which case it would be perfectly understandable.
It is no secret that the Israelis have been "advising" the Americans on how to run the occupation: after all, they have so much experience in the matter, and are more than eager to impart their hard-won expertise. The methods employed by Israeli security forces are quite different from those utilized by the U.S. military: the use of "limited" torture is okay by them, and the Palestinians are no strangers to the sort of treatment meted out to the inmates at Abu Ghraib. So when Senator Akaka asked Cambone what kind of training the contractors had received, my first thought was: The very best!
The Mossad is rightly feared throughout the Middle East, and the world, as the most ruthless (and daring) intelligence agency of them all. Only the KGB ever rivaled its reputation. That they would not hesitate to employ the sort of interrogation methods used to "soften up" the prisoners of Abu Ghraib is beyond dispute: just ask the Palestinians – and Human Rights Watch. That we have imported them, along with their methods, into Iraq seems altogether likely.
However, the General gets a bit murky when it comes to detailing the specifics against John Israel, who, in addition to not having a security clearance, is found to have
"Denied ever having seen interrogation processes in violation of the IROE, which is contrary to several witness statements."
And that is it.
We don't know how old "John Israel" is, where he lives, where he was born, or what he looks like – nothing.
We don't even know where he is. All we know is that, according to the Telegraph, he's flown the coop. Gee, I'll bet Army Specialist Jeremy Sivits, who faces court martial, a stiff jail sentence, and worldwide calumny as the "torturer of Abu Ghraib," wishes he could do the same.
If the Israelis are involved in this maelstrom of evil to some extent, then the U.S. is taking the fall for them. Just as Sivits and the others are taking the fall for the intelligence officers who directed the Abu Ghraib horror show – and are so far getting away with reprimands, and relative anonymity.
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=2558
When Rumsfeld had problems answering McCain's question, Lt. Gen. Lance Smith, the Deputy Commander of the U.S. Central Command, said there were 37 contract interrogators used in Abu Ghraib. The two named contractors, CACI and Titan, have close ties to the Israeli military and technology communities. Last January 14, after Provost Marshal General of the Army, Major General Donald Ryder, had already uncovered abuse at Abu Ghraib, CACI's President and CEO, Dr. J.P. (Jack) London was receiving the Jerusalem Fund of Aish HaTorah's Albert Einstein Technology award at the Jerusalem City Hall, with right-wing Likud politician Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and ultra-Orthodox United Torah Judaism party Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupolianski in attendance. Oddly, CACI waited until February 2 to publicly announce the award in a press release. CACI has also received grants from U.S.-Israeli bi-national foundations.
Titan also has had close connections to Israeli interests. After his stint as CIA Director, James Woolsey served as a Titan director. Woolsey is an architect of America's Iraq policy and the chief proponent of and lobbyist for Ahmad Chalabi of the Iraqi National Congress. An adviser to the neo-conservative Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, Jewish Institute of National Security Affairs, Project for the New American Century, Center for Security Policy, Freedom House, and Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, Woolsey is close to Stephen Cambone, the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence, a key person in the chain of command who would have not only known about the torture tactics used by U.S. and Israeli interrogators in Iraq but who would have also approved them. Cambone was associated with the Project for the New American Century and is viewed as a member of Rumsfeld's neo-conservative "cabal" within the Pentagon.
http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen05102004.html
Israel wouldn't need the highest clearance otherwise required of third-party contractors if he was a sub-contractor; in this way cover is customarily provided. Imagine the outrage by Arab and some-European countries (e.g., Spain, which withdrew its forces) if it was shown
Israelis were involved helping the USA torture Arabs. I'm sure Rummy sweated this. Incidentally if you want to
see how the US industrial-military-defense services complex works, take a gander at the inter-relational backgrounds of the directors shown
in the proxy statement at the Titan [L-3 Communications) website.
Yes Citizen, I'm familiar with that particular piece of Madsen garbage from "Counterpunch".
First off, let's just take a look at this particular piece of, what I assume, is Citizen demogoguery. (Actually, I've checked and now I see that you aren't even original. It comes directly from that genious Justin Raimondo.):
"It is no secret that the Israelis have been "advising" the Americans on how to run the occupation…."
Oh really? Perhaps you could provide some proof to this statement, Citizen? And there's a difference between "advising", as he calls it, and assisting in torture.
And then there's this piece of twisted Raimondo logic:
"Mr. Israel is furthermore described as not having a security clearance, an unusual condition for someone in his position – unless, of course, he's not an American, in which case it would be perfectly understandable"
Now, let's take a look at the Madsen piece (of shit). Check this out for an "Israel connection":
"Last January 14, after Provost Marshal General of the Army, Major General Donald Ryder, had already uncovered abuse at Abu Ghraib, CACI's President and CEO, Dr. J.P. (Jack) London was receiving the Jerusalem Fund of Aish HaTorah's Albert Einstein Technology award at the Jerusalem City Hall, with right-wing Likud politician Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and ultra-Orthodox United Torah Judaism party Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupolianski in attendance. Oddly, CACI waited until February 2 to publicly announce the award in a press release."
Why it's just too darn sinister to be mere coincidence. I mean the former president and CEO of CACI receives an award from the ultra-Orthodox mayor of Jerusalem (who, BTW, is not a Zionist – but neither Masden nor you probably are aware of this) and CACI waits two weeks to announce it! Wow, what could be more incriminating?
Sorry Citizen, but you're going to have to trawl the Internet some more and do better than that.
JES, other than calling my sources names, you have done nothing to counter the data I provided via those sources. You provide not a shred of documentation to contest the data I provided this blog so the readers can decide what is best
for their country and the world at large. Typical. You need to go back to Hasbara kindergarten.
Nobody is more opposed to torture than I am, but two salient facts need to be pointed out.
First the torture of prisoners is like a ripple in the water compared to the many thousands of Moslem civilians killed by American and Israeli forces in Iraq, Palestine, and Afghanistan. On a scale of 1 to 10 I would rank torture as a 3 and the mass killing of civilians as a 10.
Second the torture and other atrocities indulged in by the US and Israel — horrible as they are — pale compared to the atrocities carried out by US troops against the Japanese in World War. These included the routine killing and torturing of Japanese soldiers seeking to surrender and torpedoing hospital and transport ships and machine gunning helpless survivors. World War 2 atrocities were not limited to Germany and Japan — not by a long shot. Too, US efforts to subdue Philippine rebels after the Spanish-American war also was characterized by barbaric US atrocities including the Nazi style killing of all males over 16 on one island in reprisal for a guerilla attack on US troops.
So lets stop pretending that torture and atrocities started with the Bush regime. This is hypocrisy and historical amnesia at its worst.
Generations of Americans have been raised to believe that World War II was a "good war." If barbarism such as the torture you describe and the killing of over 50 million people, half of them civilians, can take place in a "good war," how much more acceptable can this barbarism be in a war of questionable reputation? How can we effectively combat the abuses taking place throughout the world right now when we have accepted the premise that there can be such a thing as a "good war?"
And Citizen, if you notice, neither have your "sources" provided a shred of evidence to support their assertions (although you're welcome to show me where I have erred, if you can).
BTW, when it comes to calling people names, you're pretty much among the leading offenders on this blog. (And that says a lot!)
@ JES
If I have not provided a shred evidence of what I said, you have provided much less. Not even a shredlet. You lose, loser.
@ Crimson Ghost
I don't disagree with anything you said. Further, Japanese torture methods were learned by what the USA did in the
Philippines, circa 1901, if my date memory serves. On the other hand, the Bataan Death March came after the international attempts at putting some humanity into war, as did the rape of China. The Israeli polices similarly come
after the Nuremberg Trials and the international attempts to inject some civility into war. Ana Sanchez raises the right point. We've copied the red chinese torture techniques, and supplemented them with the Israeli torture techniques. Long ago, growing up, when I thought of torture, I thought of the Gestapo. The Gestapo has long been surpassed. My only
point is the world needs to know this, especially the Western World–I mean, what's left for us? Means and ends mean
nothing?
In the movie Cabaret, the host (Joel Gray?) at the Kit Kat club is seen laughing about the whole affair depicted in that move. Seems to me, a new fading visage would replace it, that of Dick Cheney.
Oh my! I am simply devastated! (BTW, from what I can tell, you've simply cut and paste from Raimondo and Madsen. You're not even original.)
I will have to re-check my info on CACI …you may be right but it was either CACI or Titian that had someone in their company who was a former Israeli or was connected in some way a similar Israeli group.
However your protest about the core of the matter are the bullshit because there is no getting around the pentagon's admission that Israelis were working as torturers under those contracts.
And this …"Why, of course, former members of the Iraqi Ba'athist mukhabarat!….is so ridiculous it can't be answered. Obviously you didn't keep up with what was going on if you think the US let the Ba'athist anywhere near their operations.
Thanks Citizen….good job.
"CACI's President and CEO, Dr. J.P. (Jack) London was receiving the Jerusalem Fund of Aish HaTorah's Albert Einstein Technology award at the Jerusalem City Hall, with right-wing Likud politician Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz and ultra-Orthodox United Torah Judaism party Jerusalem Mayor Uri Lupolianski in attendance.
I remembered there was connection between CACI and Israel but obviously got the exact details wrong or confused it with another company linked to the pentagon.
I think the Patriot Act clearly models the worst aspects of the Israeli police state apparatus.
Citizen
The Japanese did indeed commit horrible atrocities during World War 2. I am not defending them, just pointing out the savage barbarism that people (any people) can sink to under a barrage of racial hate propaganda.
Japanese were routinely pictured as apes in World War 2 US propaganda. More than a few Americans wanted not just to win the war, but to kill as many Japanese as possible, even up to exterminating that race. Elliot Roosevelt — the President's son — was quoted as saying the US should bomb Japan until half the population was killed. A poll taken in 1944 showed that 13% of the respondents wanted to exterminate the Japanese race AFTER that nation had surrendered.
Just to put current controversies into perspective.
And of course, Asa Kasher (Israel's expert on military ethics) and Yagil Henkin (Israel's military history theorist on urban warfare) are not to be found there, were not invited, because the forum exists to delegitimize their state. In the 70s, Fateh in Gaza brought the war back into the housing blocks, only to be rooted out by Sharon, up-ending the way war had been made in Gaza by the Egyptians in '48 and '56, moving uniformed forces (in '48, against the Jewish settlements, destroying them, driving out the Jews) along the major axes of communication, between the strong points established by the Turkish, British, and later Egyptian police stations and military bases. In '08-'09, 900 dead terrorists and 300 dead civilians later, the Gazans can decide if more rocketry is needed, leaving the "fog of war" over the entire scene. Israel is currently working to avoid civilian casualties at the absolute limit of technological capacities, making it clear that a Hamas victory and genocide are the real goals of its critics.
Not odd that the partisans of homicide-genocide-suicide bombers should demand the immunity of civilians used as human shields, they recognize that Israeli violence is limited by law and morality, another weapon in the war, after all.
Citizen could have also mentioned the statement of Brig Gen Janis Karpinski, who was in charge of Abu Ghraib:
"I saw an individual there that I hadn't had the opportunity to meet before, and I asked him what did he do there, was he an interpreter – he was clearly from the Middle East," she said in the interview.
"He said, 'Well, I do some of the interrogation here. I speak Arabic but I'm not an Arab; I'm from Israel.'"
Israeli Interrogators in Iraq
If we had a functioning press, stories like this would have been covered.
Someone seems to want to distance themselves from the idea:
"The Israeli foreign ministry said the reports were completely untrue."
Perhaps they're "antisemitic"?
TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB by Seymour M. Hersh
American soldiers brutalized Iraqis. How far up does the responsibility go?
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2004/05/10/040510fa_fact?currentPage=all
Well, American, while you're checking on CACI and Titan, perhaps you can substantiate your assertion of the "pentagon's admission that Israelis were working as torturers under those contracts", because I don't seem to recall seeing that anywhere.
Further on the use of former members of the mukhabarat, I don't think that this is at all ridiculous. Actually, it reminds me of the seen at the end of Costa-Gavras' film "The Confession", which was based on the true-life story of Artur London who was deputy foreign minister of Czechoslovakia from 1948 to 1951, when he was arrested and put on a show trial as part of the Szlansky affair. (Incidentally, he was charged by the Stalinists with being a Trotskyite, a Titoist and a Zionist.)
On his return to Prague in 1968 during the "Prague Spring", he runs into his "interrogator" (i.e. torturer) on the street who, much to London's surprise, treated him as a long lost friend. Taken aback, the London character asks him what he is doing now that the new, liberal government is in power.
"Why I work for them," replied the "iterrogator". "Before I worked for the Stalinists, I worked for the Nazis. I'm a professional, and I'm good at it."
The moral of this story is that, sure, in the beginning the US was not keen to bring back either major Ba'ath figures or entire units of, say the Republican Guard. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if they utilized the local assets who knew how to make the locals talk (as opposed to hated "Zionists", who would be working at a disadvantage from the get go).