Jeff Blankfort writes:
This column in the Washington Post seems to be the most convincing piece yet that Israel will attack Iran on its schedule unless Obama publicly says he has told Israel not to. Should Israel launch an attack on Iran, it will further the global delegitimation of the state of Israel, bea disaster for the region, and may also endanger Jewish institutions around the world that have publicly identified themselves with Israel without thinking seriously about the consequences. You know that new Israeli soldiers are taken to Masada and told the story and this mindset permeates Israeli and much of post-Israel diaspora Jewish society. It's potentially self-fulfilling. Obama could stop the whole thing by talking tough to Netanyahu and saying that an attack on Iran is against America's interests and that the US will respond harshly both diplomatically and economically if Iran is attacked. If he doesn't it, which is likely, I am afraid all hell will break loose. And that's my intro to yesterday's Jim Hoagland column:
There is also a widespread belief that not even the hawkish Netanyahu would risk the rupture with the United States and the fury of the Arab street that an Israeli attack on Islamic Iran could bring...
The nightmare scenario for Obama is that Israel launches an attack on Iranian nuclear facilities that is largely unsuccessful but that provokes an Iranian missile retaliation against Israel and all-out guerrilla campaigns by Hamas and Hezbollah. Could any U.S. president, however angry, turn his back on Israel in that situation? What would happen to the U.S. mediation efforts Obama promised King Abdullah II of Jordan in their White House meeting last week?
Lets hope that Israel will not be able to do any serious damage and that Iran will refrain from retaliation the way they are doing now despite continuous provocations of Israel and USA covert units operating on it's soil.
I think the Masada complex is part of the Israeli psyche. Do you realize what that means? My reading is that the state of Israel is willing to commit national suicide in defense of their principles. This is a state, unlike the Masada fanatics, that has 200 nuclear weapons. And who is to say that all of those nuclear weapons are aimed at the Arabs and Persians. Do remember, that they have submarines with cruise missiles. They can be lurking off the coasts of any nation on earth. Wouldn't that provide them with a perfect opportunity to revenge the Jewish people for all of those centuries of pograms and antisemitic insults. This Mosada complex is something that every Moslem and European state should fear.
In defense of the principle that death in freedom is better than slavery and a humiliating, deferred death in Rome (that many Jerusalemites suffered anyway). Massada (you should read the poem by Yitzhak Lamdan, if you can find it) is the idea that some things are too ignoble for free men to suffer, a vow that the fortress not fall again. Perhaps Iran should find a way to construct a Red Phone, like between the US and USSR, so that each side can have near-instantaneous communication at the highest levels, satellite imagery to verify the non-threatening force postures on both sides, and confidence-building measures of détente that relax the vice of Iranian proxy wars on Israel's northern and southern borders. Perhaps you should realize the vapidity of your demand that Israel divest itself of the only deterrent power that it has against the real crazies, namely that the Islamic world risks awaking from its dream of a destroyed Israel in a welter of glass and ash.
Excellent comments by Jeff.
If Israel starts a war with Iran, I think she will be finished.
If the effects on the US are bad enough, Obama ought to prepare to toss the Zionists under the bus for good. If Americans are really hurting, and see Israel/Zionists as responsible, pro-Israel Jewish money and influence will count for nothing.
What principles?
In defense of the principle that death in freedom is better than slavery and a humiliating, deferred death in Rome (that many Jerusalemites suffered anyway).
Whaaa—? Rome? You mean 2000 years ago and you're fighting it today? You're insane.
Who else do you think Israel might attack besides Iran? Egypt? Russia? Germany? The United States?
They both have a Masada complex.
I don't understand why the attitude is regarded as heroic among Palestinians, but contemptible among Israelis.
Why not oppose the attitude and what feeds it, in fact.
Could not agree with David F. more.
Israelis will probably call American reactions to their bombing of Iran anti-semitic.
But all hell will break loose. And the long-term effect of everyone buttoning their lips for so long — what the ADL does not get! — so as not to appear anti-semitic will explode. Threatening our national security by taking advantage of our "friendship," causing gas to rise to over $200/barrel, raising the price of transporting food to astronomical levels, starving US children, introducing nuclear threats on this soil, then taking $3 billion/year in weapon money from hurting Americans in these economic times will be the cement that finally says 'who gives a shit'. It will be ugly. And it will be entirely Israel's fault: a self-fulfilling prophecy it could have been avoided. There wont be one ounce of sympathy for Israel or its supporters from the majority of Americans. 98% of this country is not Jewish. Haven't Nuttinyahoo and Feebleman figured that out yet?
The Palestinians dont have an historical Masada.
It's not an attitude or a complex. It refers to an historical moment in history. And what's contemptible about it, if you want to call it that, is that a nation would seek to relive it 2,000 years later. This is 2009. The consciousness should have changed.
Of course it is an attitude.
There are a dozen heroes of determination that are invoked, not only Masada.
The danger among Israelis, Palestinians, the left, the left/right, is of conflating a fear to be a reality.
I don't think the Palestinians' ongoing resistance to the ongoing theft of their lands and the murders of their people constitutes a "Masada complex." You're trying to claim an equality that just isn't there.
Israel exists for basically the same reasons that the United States does: a group of people from another place came in and fought against the native population to establish themselves there, and over time expanded their territory with more fighting. This is hardly unusual in history; I doubt there's a country in the world that doesn't ultimately owe its existence to violent conquest. The main difference between most of them and Israel is that the Israeli conquest is still going on at a time when the international community has collectively decided that wars of conquest, "ethnic cleansing", and the like are no longer acceptable. It becomes an interesting question, therefore, to ask what Israel should do. I don't expect them to pack up their belongings and go back where they came from any more than I expect white Americans, white Australians, or anyone else to do so, but a withdrawal to internationally-recognized borders (even the de facto 1967 borders), the abandonment of all settlements outside that territory, the cessation of all hostilities in what we currently call the Occupied Territories, and the cessation of interference with the formation and democratic operation of a Palestinian state is hardly something that any reasonable person could object to.
Then can you name the historical Palestinian equivalent? I dont know of one.
Suicide or suffer being occupied
"What would happen to the U.S. mediation efforts Obama promised King Abdullah II of Jordan in their White House meeting last week?"
Ah, another motivation for Israel to attack Iran. In fact, this might be the primary one.
Israel has already destroyed nuclear sites in two countries and got away with it. At Masada the Jews didn't have 200 plus nukes which the West ignores as public policy. They've already seen even Shrub wouldn't attack Iran, and Obama is judged
much less likely to do so. It's not unreasonable to assume Israel has been trying to create a pretext to war but Iran has
been too cagy. Now Obama has publicly declared to the world he will sit down with Iran without pre-conditions. Israel
now has a far-right wing government. It has pulled off the Gaza smash and only its PR has been dented. It is still expanding settlements. It seem to me reasonable to conclude that Israel will attack Iran's nuke sites within a year. It has
expanded its mid-air refueling assets. If it concludes it can make a strike without the US shooting down any of its aircraft, it will do so. Everything done by the US & Israel, Iraq, Lebanon, Gaza has been to Iran's gain. It is in Israel's interest to
make the attack before Iran actually has military nuke capacity and while the US is still bogged down in Iraq–anything
Iran does will threaten if not directly hurt US troops in the region, drawing the US into the war on Israel's side; don't forget
our Navy is over there. Iran would block the Straits, interfere with oil vessels, oil prices would skyrocket. There is nothing in the record of the USA MSM to indicate our public would not be treated to war drums in Behalf spunky little
Israel, just as the MSM & Congress beat the drums to attack Iraq.
Hold onto your seat belts. Unless Israel's attack doesn't get all the buried and wide-spread Iranian nuclear web,
Israel will carry this off even without US help. If Israel fails at that, it's WW3.
Georgia, another US protectorate, full of itself, attacked on its own. Look what happened. Israel's strike better be a lot
more effective. It will be directly attacking a lot bigger target than Georgia pointed itself at. Who gained there? Russia.
I'm sure Russia and China would gain, and–in the long run, Iran.
Did you see the interview that Stephanopolous did with Ahmenidijad on Sunday?
Iran was also recalcitrant.
I appreciate Jordanian King Abdullah's reiteration of the Arab League proposal and his summary of contrast between accepting the proposal and rejecting it. ("fortress Israel" in his words)
On Abbas, my read on accepting Israel as "the Jewish state" was "I don't really care what you call yourself. That's your business. Why should we state one way or another what you call yourself?"
It's important to note– though Jeff didn't– that Hoagland's column was written from a completely Likudocentric rather than American POV. I wrote about this here.
Clearly the Obama administration and this Israeli government have many differences of interest. The advisability of initiating a war with Iran is just one of them, but possibly the most cataclysmically important for US citizens and for world peace.
THE DEFENDERS AT MASADA WERE TERRORISTS AND ASSASSINS. WHY ANYONE COULD ADMIRE THESE JIHADIS IS BEYOND MY IMAGINATION. DOES ANYONE READ HISTORY AROUND HERE?
Look up Sicari and Zealots, read Flavius Josephus.
Mazada, coupled with the Nazis and the Holocaust.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1376592
Jurisprudence of the New Anti-Semitism
Kenneth L. Marcus
CUNY Baruch College School of Public Affairs
Wake Forest Law Review, Vol. 44, 2009
Abstract:
What is wrong with the new anti-Semitism which is now resurgent across the globe, including on American college campuses? The question is deceptively simple, but it carries considerable resonance. Numerous governmental agencies, non-governmental organizations, scholars, and civil rights practitioners have documented the dangers inherent in anti-Semitism's recent manifestations, both globally and on United States college campuses. Yet many critics still deny its existence, severity, newness, anti-Semitism, or difference from mere criticism of Israeli policies. Moreover, some argue that it is a stratagem devised to silence opposition to these policies. For this reason, it is necessary to demonstrate that persons subjected to the new anti-Semitism are harmed in a manner which should be cognizable to the law. Specifically, it must be shown how some incidents of the new anti-Semitism, which may appear to target Israel rather than individual Jews as such, nevertheless constitute prohibited forms of discrimination against Jewish Americans. Under the conventional rubrics, the question amounts to whether the new anti-Semitism abrogates anti-differentiation or anti-subordination principles. Ultimately, the answer will turn on the extent to which this new phenomenon demeans Jews, encourages anti-Jewish prejudice, and derogates Jews as morally inferior. This Article argues that the new Anti-Semitism achieves these results in part through reracialization processes which stigmatize Jews as morally blameworthy and which mark them for reprisal.
It's a pity we can't use the < blockquote > tag anymore.
When I say assassins, I mean that they murdered Romans and Jews.
the [blockquote] tag anymore.
The story never appealed to me.
But nice we can now post without typing in the code, even if we haven't logged into our typepad accounts. ;)
I believe that Tehran has threatened to strike Dimona with missiles, if the Israel strikes their nuclear facilities.
I don't know how seriously the Israelis take that threat.
I agree.
If Israel attacks Iran the fallout effects on the US will be bad enough.
And if Israel drags the US into it imagine our debt x's a hundred,imagine inflation x's 4, imagine what few allies we still have leaving us in droves. It will literally be the crowning blow to the US.
And in fact it will the US jewish zionist and their Israel loyalty and our own corrupt congress who will be responsible for America's demise.
Let's hope Obama understands this.
"It becomes an interesting question, therefore, to ask what Israel should do. I don't expect them to pack up their belongings and go back where they came from any more than I expect white Americans, white.."
There is no question at all.
Israel should do what the UN determined it should do when the UN created Israel.
And that is build their state within the borders and on the land they were given…and only the land they were given.
THAT was the agreement.
Should a 20th/21st century country that doesn't honor it's agreements and is motivated by only greed and mindless revenge born of a victimhood culture exist? Probably not.
Thruout history a lot of states and peoples have disappeared for less.
jews dont have a historical masada either. what is propagated is like most jewish stories – fiction.
those killed(no mass suicide) by the romans at masada were jewish thieves and assassins(sacari) who preyed on jews in the local communities.
the romans were doing a crime sweep and the criminals were jews
just noticed your post. did similar above
Where? The only threat I've heard from the Iranian leadership is that it will defend itself vigorously. I've never heard Dimona come out of Ahmadinejad's mouth, or the big religious guy that actually runs the country. Their nuclear facilities are underground and they're power stations. The only people in the world that maintain the Iranians are making nuclear weapons are the Israelis. The IAEA has monitors in their tunnels and says they are not enriching beyond 5%. You need 92%+ for weapons. The Iranians are still using centrifuges, fer crissake. By the time you get the weapon-grade uranium you dont need centrifuges.
Every single suicide bombing carried out in an Israeli café, supermarket, synagogue, hotel, meeting hall, or bar. Masada says "We will not live as slaves." Suicide shahidin say "You have no right to live, and we will destroy ourselves to destroy you. We value our lives as nothing as long as you still draw breath, and sharing death is what we prize over sharing life."
I don't have a word for that. "Shahid" doesn't communicate the pure nihilism. Palestinian ambulances aren't admitted to Jerusalem anymore for a reason.
If you're talking about Iran, hmm. let me think.
The Iran-Iraq war that lasted a decade, where Iraq was financed by both Western states and the Arab world. The recent sabre-rattling by Israel and the US, the US destruction of a democratic Iran in favour of the dictatorial Shah, the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
You know what, I have no idea why Iran has a Masada complex
All religions prefer their followers choose death instead of renunciation of their faith. Religions are intransigent, which makes a state founded on an ancient religion, one that celebrates a mass suicide event from thousands of years ago, and also has nuclear weapons, so dangerous.
I mad man never thinks rationally.
Iran would be set as an 'example' Israel's Middle East positioned nukes would be the 'reminder' to Egypt, the United States etc. who really holds the strings.
Over the next couple of days we need to watch for any leaks on what Dennis Ross might be up to in the Middle East.
http://arisfreedomswitch.blogspot.com/2009/04/obamas-neocon-headed-to-persian-gulf.html
Palestinian suicide bombers do not resemble the hold outs committing mass suicide at Masada. The Palestinian suicide bombers more closely resemble the American native ghost warriors. The mythical white buffalo and the virgins of Islamic heaven have more in common with each other than a rational choice not to be a slave. The Palestinians, like the Native Americans, are being exterminated, not to provide labor for an empire, but to wipe them from coveted land. Onslaughts that decimate cultures induce mysticism as a last resort for survival. Supporters of Palestinian self-determination and Israeli apologists should be very glad that the work of Hezbollah and Hamas, and their support by Iran, has turned the Palestinians away from the death spiral of religious mysticism for a more rational resistance to Israeli aggression.
Makes sense why our House Foreign Affairs committee all of a sudden got interested trying to get the chair of the UN Human Rights committee…
Israel has the capacity to become the Jonestown, Guyana of the Twenty-first Century.
Actually, the work of Hezbollah and Hamas is still an attempted genocide, on an industrial rather than artisanal scale, now that the bombers are blocked by the Fence. Either they will resist the temptation to continue it now that Israel has (apparently) foiled their escalation from Kassams and Grads to Zelzal missiles, or they will up the ante until the scale of Israel's response resembles that of the last Western-allied nation threatened with large missiles on its major urban areas, Croatia. The fact is that Hezbollah seems susceptible to calculations of balance-of-power, but this is belied somewhat by the nuclear-fetishism seen in recent rallies in Beirut.
The projection by supporters of Palestine is simply batty. It is true that Israel is using the continuing war and non-recognition to take land, but the PA and the Fence and the withdrawal from Gaza are admissions that it expects Palestinian society to continue to exist on the "other side", and even perhaps to prosper under a cold "economic peace" pending a resolution of the dispute.
The work of Hezbollah and Hamas is to represent and protect peoples under siege. Palestinians and Lebanese Shiites have little or no industrial capacity, which is why they physically cannot engage in genocide. Their maneuvers are defensive, unlike Israel's, which are acquisitive and subsidized by the world's greatest industrialized society, giving the Israelis genocidal power they have used generously.
"You're trying to claim an equality that just isn't there."
That, in fact, is his whole megillah. See, and it gets rid of the Jewish-superiority problem, too. We're just as bad as them. (But they were bad first).
Isn't Richard Witty's support for Israel wonderful! He is always willing to fight to the last drop of their blood. He stays safe in Brooklyn, over in Eretz Yisroel, they all to the Masada.
I think Richard is projecting his preffered end to this pesky problem, one that leaves his dreams and fantasies intact.
Too many dead Jews for my taste, in Masada
Ultimatums like Richard Witty's, which is based on punitive power, is why people, including Israelites, resort to violence.
It is true that Israel is using the continuing war and non-recognition to take land
busted
I think if Israel hit Iran, the US would go along with Israel, Obama would make a wonderful speech and the majority of Americans would rally to the cause. The Main Stream Media controls America, and that control is hardly lessening, blogs aside.
Thank you web master for removing the distracting replies to specific posts. Chronological order is a better way to view comments.
It's weird to see serious discussion revolve around mythical events.
Funnily enough, even an Israeli Nobel Prize winning scientist posits the MAD doctrine as the best way to avoid war.
On this basis, Israel should just give Iran some nukes and relax.
More seriously, I think Iran knows that Israel is insane enough to throw nukes at Iran if they get wind of a nuke actually being developed, so it will happily sit at the threshold level watching Israel fret and deterring future aliyah.
And if Israel loses its nerve and attacks anyway? I would suggest the last 60 years would look like a kindergarten stoush and Israel will lose so many European Jews scurrying back to their real home countries that the Jewish State will wither on the vine…