We've been following the news today that Israel has rejected the Obama's administration's demand to halt settlement expansion in East Jerusalem. Although this disagreement is taking place behind closed doors here in the US, in Israel/Palestine it is unfolding in the streets of East Jerusalem as Palestinian families fight to stay in their homes. And don't forget there is a very clear US connection here. The settlement in question is being funded by the American casino tycoon Irving Moskowitz.
Joseph Dana, Mairav Zonszein and Antony Loewenstein report from occupied East Jerusalem:
Today roughly one hundred people gathered to protest the eviction of the Palestinian Hanoun family from their home in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem. They are the latest target of the increasing push to populate the area with Jewish settlers, hindering any possibility for a future Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem.
According to their website (standforjerusalem.org), the Hanoun’s are one of 27 families in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood that are facing home eviction as part of a plan to establish a new Jewish settlement in the area. The Hanoun family was displaced from their home in Haifa after the Nakba of 1948 and currently consists of 18 people, including six children. They have lived in Sheikh Jarrah since 1956, when the Jordanian Government and UNRWA gave them houses as part of a project to help Palestinians forced to flee their properties.
International press and every major Israeli news outlet including the Jerusalem Post were on hand to hear the press conference held inside the Hanoun family home. This is not surprising given news today of the US State Department informing the current Israeli envoy that Israel must halt all settlement construction in East Jerusalem. Prime Minister Netanyahu responded that Jerusalem will always be the united capital of Israel.
Later on, Hagit Ofran of Peace Now gave protesters and the media a brief history of another sign of Israel’s takeover in Sheikh Jarrah, the Shepherd Hotel (video below). The hotel was bought by millionaire and close friend of Ehud Olmert, Irving Moskowitz, in the 1980s, with a plan to create a massive apartment complex for Jewish settlers. The city of Jerusalem has until recently denied permission to build such a complex.
Last month, permission was granted by newly instated mayor Nir Barkat to continue construction at the Shepherd Hotel, placing yet another portion of disputed land in Jewish hands and sending a message to Palestinians and the world that Israel is not a genuine partner in any bilateral, peace process.
What is so perplexing and enraging is that by continually implanting Jewish neighborhoods in the midst of Palestinian communities, Israel is sabotaging its own determination to be a permanent, Jewish-majority, internationally accepted, democratic state with defined borders.
(A Palestinian house in the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood of East Jerusalem. Photo: Electronic Intifada)
It is an idiotic approach. I'm sure that they are thinking "Lets keep this going as long as we possibly can". Its divisive, and therefore results in difficult political questions for someone like Obama. If Obama takes a hard line, it firms up the likud and right-wing fanatic base. For the middle to move towards sympathy with him, and opposition to Netanyahu, he needs to sustain his political pressure, until the the Israelis choose the close and confident friendship with the US, over the expansionism of likud. But, then again, Hamas could bring the Israeli electorate back to likud if they want to do so again, by some ill-timed suicide mission, or resumption of shelling. The risk in Israel is to further inflame the fanatics, on both sides. But, the question HAS TO BE PRESSED. Changing from an intention to expand to an intention to co-exist is THE path to peace.
Mondoweiss is getting infected with rotating commenters from Avigdor Lieberman’s Foreign Ministry Internet Fighting Team. You can tell who they are: they're bilious, rude, dismissive, and 'Israel can do no wrong'. They're also boring. Ignore their posts. Don't feed them.
I assume that stupid comment was directed at me. What a ludicrous response to my support for Obama keeping the pressure on Israel to cease settlement expansion.
Look at the timestamp, Richard. MRW's comment was posted one minute before yours was. You might have started your post before MRW, but he posted his before yours and so it could not have been in response to what you wrote. I suspect MRW is referring to the self-described "Zionist Extremist" benshlomo.
Who sold this land to Moskowitz in the first place? This is a horrible idea to expand in E. Jerusalem, this whole settler bullshit could be stopped and hopefully much of the expansion reversed, but first the PA/Hamas needs to broker a deal w/ Israel. Instead of whining about the settlements, get your deal before its too late and all of the WB is settled by these nutbags.
"Who sold this land to Moskowitz in the first place?" According to this Ha'aretz report, the Shepard's Hotel was confiscated after the 67 war by the (Israeli) Custodian General (of "Abandoned" Arab Properties). Which makes the sale illegal under international law. Not that Israel gives a flying F about that. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?it...
So it looks like the question remains, will Obama be the new Neville Chamberlain like his predecessors except for I like Ike and the murdered first Catholic POTUS, JFK? Or will Israel be brought up by the short hairs? It's a question that is astounding in terms of USA being the only superpower. Germany was independent of US foreign aid, and, indeed, was subject to World Jewry's economic boycott since before Krystal Night. Israel is a US welfare queen. What's revealing about this picture?
Why is Moskowitz allowed to violate US official foreign policy? He should be arrested for treason. Arab Americans have been arrested for a lot less….
The Obama administration is practicing death by diplomacy, this is the same procss taking place in different part of the world. Sometimes it means rollback of human rights and participatory democracy like Honduras, and at other times as in this instance it means business as usual while zero action to change anything continues. Either way the stall will always result in the maintaining of the status quo. You have people who are constantly running around saying that Israel is shooting itself in the foot for a two state solution. However there is no plan fo a viable two state solution, only the complete destruction of the possibility of a viable Palestinian state. The other alternative is the escalation of the in fact genocide reaching the point of the complete expulsion of the Palestinian people in both Israel propoer and the occupied territories or their annihilation. Time to wake up people
If the response wasn't directed at me, I apologize.
OT, but not really:
http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=143
No they haven't.
…could be stopped …but first 2009 PR Dictionary Alternative to PR: First learn what it is to experience empathy. Then, possibly, you can overcome the training and experience of your environment. At that point, review the whole conflict again. Eventually, trying to use the approach suggested by Lutz likely will result in a slight adjustment of viewpoint, just from having to use the words. But that slight adjustment, and the time it will take ain't going to be sufficient or soon enough to make a difference imho. I agree Tree, and will do better.
"While the US and Israel spar over settlements, Israel continues ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem" I'll retell this anecdote. I met a young woman recently. A pretty thing. Probably in her 20s. She informed me that she'd just returned from Israel. I assumed she was Jewish, but I'm not sure. I asked what she thought of the place. "AWESOME!" she said. "I want to LIVE there!" She asked if I'd ever been. I said no and it was very unlikely I ever would go. When asked why, I told her it's a very racist society and wouldn't suit me. She was so enthusiastic about Israel that I expected her to vehemently object to my characterization. But instead, she said.."well yeah…they ARE very racist. Like I was talking to this boy there and they came over and said 'don't talk to him. He's an ARAB!" Now if you hear this sort of thing once or twice….or 20 times or 30 times..maybe it doesn't mean a whole lot. When you hear it thousands of times, when people like Max Blumenthal capture it on tape, when every israeli who posts here expresses such total indifference for the suffering Israel is meting out to people for the sin of not being Jewish…I'm sorry. It's not an anecdote any more. Racism is a disease. It typically infects individuals and small groups but it CAN seize an entire society. I'm convinced that this has happened in Israel. They can not see what normal people see. They can't comprehend that there's something wrong with what they are doing. To beat a helpless man to within an inch of his life doesn't phase them if the victim is an Arab. i don't know what can be done for this malady. I think it's more critical than the land dispute, the borders or any of the standard issues discussed in the political sphere. I begin to suspect that the situation with Israel is primarily a mental health issue. Their country is in the throes of an epidemic.
Build Build Build! We need to support massive building and settlement in our capital Jerusalem. As the woman said "Every small change in the area has severe consequences" and also "Settlers know if they build here and bring enough Jews it will be impossible to have a two state solution based on two capitals in Jerusalem" Exactly! We are building Jerusalem so fast and strong. Am Yisrael Chai!
What? Richard, when I wrote my comment there were none here. I am not referring to you. You have been a long-time participant on this blog. And if I WERE directing it to you, I have the balls to mention you by name.
I apologize. Thanks.
You want to kill Israel by that? You must be a plant.
Richard, Over the years there have been dire predictions vis-a-vis demographics. It is important to build in our capital regardless of the demographics and we have the rights. I am confident that the trends are in our favour. Arab birthrate is declining, the Arab statistics bureau is waaaay offf and building in Jerusalem is the right thing to do. Like I said before, check in with me in ten years.
Notice how everyone including Witty is repulsed by this israeli and his vomit….yet curiously, he always manages a +1 after his little Nazi dance? You don't suppose he's signing back on and voting for himself? Nawww. Israelis are very honest, upright people.
I am a registered member so I get a point for every posting. I suppose you would register too if you weren't afraid of getting banned for spreading terms of use violating Antisemitism.
why not post your name and address so some good samaritan can come and cut fucking your hands off.
I am reporting this posting. Additionally we aren't under Sharia law at this time so there is no punishment for removing of hands. And excuse me but I thought you were a Jew? Or do christian stories hold more sway to you?
Are you "officially" reporting it? You're an Israeli. You'll always be an Israeli. For the rest of your life. You'll never ascend to a higher form…like a fruit fly or a sewer rat. You'll remain an Israeli. You have to live with that fact. I suppose that's punishment enough.
I am reporting this one as well. I hope that the other users on this site will step in to stop these sort of comments from you. In this comment we see a common theme Jews as "Fruit flies" "Sewer Rats" and a "lower form" Where are the admins?
The administrators are humanitarian Jews and are about one nanometer from kicking YOUR Nazi ass out of here. Nothing as evil as Israel can persist forever. Israel is going to be obliterated. And you and all your Nazi friends from the toilet are going to die.
you may be right that the admins don't care. I'll report this just in case. Here we see the classic case of a true antisemite letting his feelings out. It starts with dehumanization, continues to deligitimization, now we are seeing the final stages: Extermination. "you and all your Nazi friends from the toilet are going to die." "Israel is going to be obliterated." The final stage has begun.
I think the labour ministry's got something going too, those 250,000 'guest' workers from Thailand and the Phillipines need to have something to do :)
v…. wrote: "You have people who are constantly running around saying that Israel is shooting itself in the foot for a two state solution. However there is no plan fo a viable two state solution…." Yeah, while some people are getting hepped-up about this latest business of Obama putting some screws to Israel the fact is that the U.S. is still on the certain-to-lose track. Or, in other words, it isn't what *direction* the U.S. is pushing in over there or *who* were pushing, it's that we are there pushing at all. Think about it: Say Netanyahu/Israel caves on the settlement expansion for awhile, and maybe on the Jerusalem expansions too, does anyone believe Obama is going to succeed forcing him and Israel further on all the innumerably other tougher issues all the way to the peace table and signing something they violently object to? And that if that happens Israel and its future leaders will feel bound by it? I understand giving Israel some heavy hints in terms of the directions we'd like it to go in. But I don't think if we shove it anywhere it will stay there, and in the end I don't like the idea even of telling it where it should be shoved to. That's not the way durable peace agreements are made. The *only* way this thing can end okay is for the parties, one their own, to make peace. Willingly. And it's a tragedy that we aren't seeing them doing so now when each side it seems has so much to lose if this business goes on. But it ain't happening and all one can see for the foreseeable future is more ugliness, so why in the world should we go playing in this vicious, never-ending mud-puddle? And all this is likely to blow up in Obama and the U.S.'s face far sooner than any reneged-upon final peace deal. Think about what happens when Obama feels he has to let up a little now on the settlement expansions. Or even if he persists and Israel says no and there's nothing he can do. Or even if he then tries to cut off the money to it and Congress doesn't go along. Once again, in a conflict in which we have virtually no interest whatsoever it will, amazingly enough, be the *U.S.* that turns out to be the biggest loser in terms of seeming feckless and dishonest etc. It's the *U.S.* that once again to the arabs that is going to be the focal point of anger, with a helluva lot of justification since by doing as it is the U.S. is essentially saying it *is* the focal point of progress. Again, it isn't *what* we do over there, it's that we try doing anything at all. We oughta butt out except for strictly humanitarian assistance. We have no dog in this hunt, but time and again we act as if we are some superman, and some super-moral-man too, and time and again we keep coming out of it looking worse and worse and dirtier and dirtier. And yet time and again we get sucked in to once again cheering ourselves as we go plunging once again and ever-deeper into the cesspool.
sin respectfully and completely disagree. israel's abominations in the occupied territories would be inconceivable without US encouragement, cash, weapons, tactical assistance, political gerrymandering on the world stage, etc. We have had a dog in this race from the start. I do agree that any vague measures or half measures on Obama's part are doomed to failure. He has to be smart, calculating and go for the jugular, using as much international capital as he can possibly amass. The world wants Israel clubbed to death at this point. The world is behind the Palestinians. Obama could crush israel—there's no question. It's simply cowardice and a lack of will.
But we have been "playing in this vicious, never-ending mud-puddle" since 1948, so why should anyone be surprised if we end up dirty? Do you think the disposession of the Palestinians could have reached the level it has if it weren't for all those hundreds of billions of dollars, military development assistance, and diplomatic back-up that we have showered on Israel? I think we've been chest-deep in mud for a long time and it's time to come clean.
Well, those who wish and voice the same for the Palestinians, do they deserve any less? Let me tell you what makes you and those like you specifically repugnant, you do not have to do these things – you choose to do so, it is the choice of a strong oppressor, there is not one ounce of victim in you. The Palestinians on the other hand are set upon by your murderous intent, your might makes right non-moral and low demeanor. People can champion a cause that has a modicum of right in it, you have none – you are fresh out of any excuses, and deserve to lose big time.
i thought Ramaleh or Gaza City was going to be the capital city of a Palestinian state?
This article by Norman Finkelstein seems all but written for someone like eitanbenshlomo. It's worth reading, even if the title pretty much says it all: Kill Arabs, Cry Anti-Semitism http://www.counterpunch.org/finkelstein09122006.h...
Continued settlement expansion will result in the "one state solution". One bi-national state with an Arab majority. I bet they call it Palestine.
Agreed. As long as Israel exists, there will be no Palestine. Whatever the gains of Israel, the Palestinian's will sit on that border like Hizbollah and there will be no peace. Not as long as Israel exists. If the US can't dismantle the "Jewish state", Israel will continue to dominate, manipulate and create chaos in the world. And of course the US is riddled with Zionist vermin in every nook and cranny so I don't see the US taking care of the problem, she is in a stranglehold.
I agree. The people in "Israel" live in a Disneyland, nothing is real but appears to be real if only they believe. In 1948 when Zionists terrorized the Arabs out, these same Zionists took their children with them and looted the Arab's homes, like it was ok to do so. Why was it ok to do so? They have taught their children that Arabs are subhuman and they, [these European Jews who have no historical roots in the place] are the chosen ones and Israel belongs to them and the nasty Arabs are trying to keep them from their promise from God. Blah blah blah. But this is how the Israelis we see today have been raised from birth. They are warped human beings.
RE:Build Build Build! We need to support massive building and settlement in our capital Jerusalem. As the woman said "Every small change in the area has severe consequences" and also "Settlers know if they build here and bring enough Jews it will be impossible to have a two state solution based on two capitals in Jerusalem" Well well, you just recapitulated the WW2 Jewish holocaust Zionist hoax and mass immigration for us! That doesn't happen often….lol
That's pretty funny!
We hope this is the case, that it will come to this – however, I am not so sure it will "naturally" occur. Lets hope this does not turn into a repeat of history – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrK90LvqbRk
Eitanbenshlomo – it sure looks as if our people learned from the Nazis. Maybe it isn't yet gas chambers but there are certainly some people in Israel who would be very happy to send the Palestinians to gas chambers. Maybe you are one of those. Did it ever occur to you shlomo that the Palestinians are Hitler's last victims – the are the victims of those Hitler victimized. Must make you proud. It doesn't make me proud. It makes me sick.
In response to my post arguing for U.S. neutrality in the I/P conflict AnaSanchez wrote: "Do you think the disposession of the Palestinians could have reached the level it has if it weren't for all those hundreds of billions of dollars [& etc.} that we have showered on Israel?" And after essentially agreeing with Ana, lovelyisraelis wrote: "The world wants Israel clubbed to death at this point." Of course much of what Israel has done since '73 has indeed been subsidized by the U.S., which in my view was wrong. And I'd love to be able to rewind the tape of history and do it over again but we can't. But in calling for our disengagement I'm not only relying on the idea that it's never too late to start to do the right thing, but also what I think is a pretty powerful argument which is that while *you* may think the U.S. should stay involved so as to force Israel to do X, Y or Z to help the Palestinians, I suspect that if *they* were given the choice of what they'd want to see the U.S. try the Palestinians themselves would just jump for joy at the alternative of the U.S. just getting out and being neutral. Why? Because they know damned well from the last forty years of history that the U.S. simply *can't* stay engaged and be honestly neutral. Moreover, in terms of trying to make amends for the past, I think the world and even the arab world to a large extent would accept it as being as honorable a thing as possible (or "honorable enough" in other words) for the U.S. to simply say "Hey, yes we started supported Israel when it looked to us to be in danger of being wiped out, and from there yes we subsidized Israel further out of a concern for its fundamental security while always however agreeing that the settlements were illegal and wrong. But now that the fundamental security of Israel proper is secure, our subsidization is coming to an end." And I also think that those who wish the U.S. to go beyond that and push Israel this way or that are undertaking a needless and even foolish responsibility that it is not theirs to take, and that is to pretend to know the future and know what Israel really needs for its fundamental security, and thereby take responsibility for all the Israeli lives that may be lost if their assessment is wrong. In essence those who are arguing that the U.S. should push Israel back to its pre-'67 borders and give the Palestinians a full-blown or even fairly fully-blown state are making a bet that they can see the future. A bet that yes of course *all* the Palestinians are going to accept this and not go on to just further attack Israel in a revanchist fervor and try to atone for '47 and '48 and push Israel into the sea. That yes of *course* the moderate Palestinians will not only have the will *but also the ability* to fight off the extremists who, with Iranian and other extremist arab backing, will just use that new territory that Israel can no longer sweep to launch new rocket or other terror attacks and etc. (In spite of the fact that the Palestinian moderates to date seem corrupt and feckless as hell, and that the Palestinian extremists seem popular as hell, strong as hell, and willing as hell to use violence against their moderates.) And in response to the idea that well, Israel would still be able to defend itself against such a little extremist state those arguing for the U.S. to determine Israel's security are also betting that they know the future of the region too. That of *course* Egypt will never fall to the Muslim Brotherhood and Lebanon will never fall to Hizbullah and Jordan will never fall to extremists so that Israel is not only smaller and less defensible, but now utterly surrounded by extremist states. I don't want to take that responsibility, even if it was mine to take. That's up to Israel and the Israelis. And I think that once we stop subsidizing it to essentially remain at war the Israelis are no different than anyone else and will start to make some realistic assessments of the costs of continuing down the path it is on (because they would not be footing those costs themselves), and the benefits of peace. In brief those who desire the U.S. to push Israel to do this or that are just mirror-image dopplegangers of those who got us into this mess in the first place by believing not only that they knew where the finger of cosmic justice pointed, but that they could effectuate it too.
You're both plants, caricatures. The picture of what is wrong with the discourse. The decibel democracy.
"What is so perplexing and enraging is that by continually implanting Jewish neighborhoods in the midst of Palestinian communities, Israel is sabotaging its own determination to be a permanent, Jewish-majority, internationally accepted, democratic state with defined borders." Well, maybe the powers that be in Israel just have a determination to be a permanent, Jewish-*rule*, internationally accepted, *colonial apartheid* state with defined borders. That would actually explain a lot, now wouldn't it?
you really don't have a clue Michelle, keep going to your leftist rallies and keep getting brainwashed. Its a lot less black and white than you portray it. Enough of your family and friends gets killed by a group of ppl, you start to recent them……
Eitan, ppl like you w/ that mentality are going to be the downfall of Israel…… it saddens me to think there are so many like you.
by who exactly?
I thought you might be above Holocaust denial, but i guess not.
Of what strategic value is Israel to the USA? Is the Israel eitan paints a strategic asset to the USA? I've noticed, e.g., that the USA's foreign policy respecting Taiwan has been changing, especially since China has boomed economically following the Nixon switch. How much to honor and support the One China POV? How much to honor and support the independent Taiwan as it democratically evolves? I have no access to the Chinese American community so I don't what they think about our arms deals or security agreements as they've evolved, dissolved, or remain essentially intact. Would we send two aircraft carriers there today under any circumstances? Would we sell more F-16s to Taiwan? As China's influence in the world grows, and our dependence on trade with China and Chinese investors grows, what is the applicable US congressional committee doing? To what extent is there a soft civil war going on between native Taiwanese and those who settled there, having been pushed off the mainland by Mao's legions? To what extent is Taiwan today a strategic asset to the USA? To what extent is Taiwan an albatross around the neck of the USA? Given the configuration of the players today, what policy would best reflect the USA's most overriding self interest in the area? Are similar questions being seriously raised inside the Obama regime and Congress respecting the Middle East? I wonder what Mitchell's personal take really is, and what would he propose as the policy best reflecting US strategic and economic interests? When will Obama actually talk with Iranian high officials? Just as Israel urges the US to help it bomb Iran as a condition precedent to getting down to dirty details respecting the I-P issue, how do the Obama people expect to counter an Iranian demand that puts what it considers progress on the I-P issue on the front burner? How about the fact that the Arab Street fully supports the aspirations of the Palestinian people? How to make a fig leaf big enough to cover all the parts?
Maybe your family and friends should cease trespassing with harmful intent?
How can the international community and representative organizations accept one exception to the general rule agreed on since Nuremberg? Having hung the Nazi leaders, and authorized the state of Israel due to the impact they had on the Jews especially, how can the West ever rubber-stamp Israeli aggression and rim running at best on the wheels of crimes against humanity? What to do with a bi-polar state when it's left up to that state to decided whether or not it wishes to take its lithium, and take regular blood tests to adjust to proper dosage? The highs are addictive even as the depression following in the wake of the maniac destruction is severe. Forced hospitalization is authorized if the patient is likely to harm the self or others–but then, after recuperation, the patient is back out on the street again and those the patient is most dependent on, and close to, sit on pins and needles, awaiting the next time…
How? Because there weren’t any. Despite the lies and propaganda of the Palestinians, by any objective measure, the Israeli response was milder and less proportionally damaging to civilians than would be expected of a country in its position. Do you have an example of a similar attack on an urban terrorist center by any country that had a lower ratio of civilians killed to terrorists killed?
Of course we have only the IDF’s word for the number of “terrorists” killed. And the IDF has a habit of calling anyone killed by them, ipso facto, a “terrorist”. So while it might be interesting to come up with alternative numbers, they will mean nothing.
What the testimony proves, and is reconfirmed by the massive destruction the IDF caused, is that the IDF planned and executed an offensive in Gaza meant to destroy large swaths of civilian homes and infrastucture there was both a collective punishment and a callous exercise in improving military positions or a possible future incursion. This created highly significant damage to civilians, and to claim that this damage was “mild” is to be totally blinkered to reality.
It was also shown that the IDF fostered a callous disregard for civilians and clearly ranked the safety of IDF soldiers much higher than concern for innocent civilians.
Looks like Obama has already bought the Israel spiel regarding Iran. He originally specified he'd give the Iranians until the end of this year to get their act straight regarding nukes; now he has stated in the public arena he will give Iran until this September. As Hillary pointed out recently, its good to go through this short exercise with Iran, the better to build a willing coalition to properly handle Iran (bomb them back into the stone age). Obama has apparently decided Iran has military nuke facilities up and running, despite the last aggregate US intelligence report it does not. And there's no Chas Freeman in the intelligence chair. Just Rahm, right next door. Bush Jr believed in rattling his saber; Obama believes in walking softly, his big stick a telescoping one collapsed in his inside jacket pocket. http://www.counterpunch.org/
I'm happy with your prescription for US neutrality on Israel-Palestine if it is TRUE neutrality, which is hard to even imagine at the moment. Withdrawal of funds from israel would probably cause it to collapse. Neutrality would insist that Hamas be recognized by the US just as any other government. Neutrality would insist that the Palestinians, like the Israelis, are entitled to security. We would lift all restrictions on anyone supplying them with heavy arms, fighter jets and anti-aircraft. Neutrality would mean that any US citizens found fighting for the IDF would be jailed as violators of US law. Neutrality would demand that US law restricting sale of materials used for terrorism and ethnic cleansing–like caterpillar bulldozers, cluster bombs, etc be subject to strict trade restrictions, with violators jailed. Neutrality would demand even-handed coverage of events in this part of the world. And of course, neutrality would take the US totally out of the defense of Israel game in the UN and other world bodies, basically leaving this reprehensible gangster state to drown. If the UN and ICJ wanted to round up Israel's leadership for war crimes, the US would not stand in the way.
Yes Citizen..great post..I believe the disease metaphors with respect to Israel have become inescapable! I was thinking yesterday about those Israelis who have done so much and risked their lives for the cause of human rights and peace. Again, I had to reach for the metaphor as they remind me of those rare individuals exposed to HIV who never become ill. They are medical miracles. It's so vital that they be supported and encouraged. I remember the early days of the Vietnam anti-War movement. I was a kid in school. (Even back then, I guess I was mouthy!) But for adults to speak out–in the workplace, among friends, etc…It took a lot of courage because the tone of the country, especially where I grew up, was very right wing. But eventually, some critical mass was reached and average people could begin to openly question what we were doing in Indochina. Finally, you could even get away with expressing sympathy for the Godless Vietnamese. A rift opened–a fissure, as in a wall of ice. It would be many years before that awful war was finished, but that's how it began.
Meanwhile, for World PR purposes, Israeli legislators have decided to revamp their proposed bill outlawing any expression of the Nakba and kill Nakba memory by cutting off all state and local funding of any group or organization that publicly mentions the Nakba: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1101208.html
I respectfully disagree. Almost all of the Israeli political class is and has always been pro-ethnic cleansing, and after 1967 solidly behind colonization. I believe that they are extremely aware of and not ignoring the so-called 'demographic problem'. Recall that it was Ariel Sharon who made the decision to remove Israeli colonies from Gaza, and that two of his reasons were that the ratio of Palestinians to Jews in Gaza made a Jewish majority impossible, and that the resources both material and human would be better 'spent' in the West Bank. I think they have always hoped that a decisive Jewish majority could be reached there by steady colonization and creeping ethnic cleansing inclusive of making Palestinian's live so miserable that they would emigrate, but failing that have been prepared for war-facilitated ethnic cleansing. The historical record is very clear that the IDF has engaged in large-scale ethnic cleansing during the confusion of every war. Indeed, I think that was the main objective behind American neocon 'creative destruction'. I think they are planting as many Jewish colonists as they can in the West Bank to maximize the credibility of formal annexation after the next post-war cleansing. I think their leadership has always thought and planned on long time-scales for expansion, and that they work on the assumption that there will eventually be another multi-national Arab Israeli war. That is the main reason they have assiduously avoided peace treaties, Egypt being an exception because it almost almost defeated Israel in 1973, and they felt a strong need for breathing room to reorganize the the IDF and re-achieve regional dominance. I think this war-facilitated ethnic cleansing has been a persistent policy since 1948, and has been supported by every ruling coalition. I hypothesize that Israeli politicians are freaking out now because global, especially American, attention is increasingly being focused on their creeping ethnic cleansing and colonization in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, and that they won't be able to adequately pre-condition the OPT for their primary objective of war-facilitated Arabrein annexation. Every year that passes without concerted creeping ethnic cleansing and colonization erodes the pre-conditioning, and with Bush gone they fear the next war may happen too late to pull it off. Their political class is gambling that it is still possible that war will allow them to achieve their long-sought objective, and are avoiding what seems the obvious necessity to the rest of the world for the continuation of a Jewish majority state, withdrawal of colonies from the OPT.
(Re2) Typical mental castrato jewnazi blather…
Modern Iran has no history of invading its neighbors. Iraq invaded Iran with our backing. The Iranian revolution did NOT spill over to it's neighbors, so your fears Nombre are hypothetical. You can give no precedent for them. You are arguing on the basis of fear. Some might say *fear mongering*. What actions have Hizbullah, Hamas, or the Muslim Brotherhood engaged in that the IDF hasn't? Why do you expect a higher standard of action of the Arabs than you do of the Israelis? The West/the U.S. created Israel, we sustain it, it is our responsibility to control it. We haven't done a very good job.
""In essence those who are arguing that the U.S. should push Israel back to its pre-'67 borders and give the Palestinians a full-blown or even fairly fully-blown state are making a bet that they can see the future."" Bullshit. Those who make this arguement are saying that pushing Israel back to it's UN pre 1967 borders is the only way to "establish" the bottom line bargining position in I-P. Doing that gets rids of all "illegal" "facts on the ground" and goes strictly according to "international law" in any settlement.. Once Israel is held to the "legal parameter"s of Israel and the UN charter that created Israel..then they can start bargining if they don't like it. Anything else would be once again allowing 'EXCEPTIONS" for Israel and Jews. Exempting them from international law every other country is held to.. Either Israel respects the UN and the law that created it or they should be treated as any other rouge country would be.
Or are they your best friends? I imagine they think so.
Amen.
We don't want a two state solution
They have no choice but to suicide bomb, shoot rockets and stab people? That's a hard sell.
Left wing propaganda
Then cry if you are sad
Yes. Your memory serves you well. The native Vietnamese people as a whole didn't want rule by the West, nor by the Communists. At the time you write about (when critical mass was being reached at least in the draft deferment colleges) I was a teen-aged US Army veteran with an honorable discharge, attending a university in downtown Chicago–I was hated by both the college lefties and the Chicago cops–I studied Doestoievsky, including The Possessed (The Devils) and realized his "fictional" characters were all around me. Worshipping "tradition" sure is a double edged sword. I hate ideology. That doesn't mean I love chaos, as I'm sure you understand.
Who cares. We can be a strategic asset to Russia just as well. USA self interest is a safe Israel. But try it your way see what you get, makes no difference to us.
That's right put "Israel" in quotes. We know what you want.
Nazi analogies are always wrong no matter who it's about and how you frame it. Let's talk about what makes people sick. I think you have a condition (sickness) called "selective sickness disorder" You get sick when the Jewish people have returned to our aboriginal homeland and are building and thriving. You do NOT get sick at arab abuses however.
Continued deligitimization. First Animals, then bots, now "caracitures"
Holocaust denial. Typical
Sin is onto something important here. Obama is paving a messy road for the USA. I didn't quite follow Sin's argument but one has to recognize that in Arabic culture, they only respect strength and force. Thus, when Bill Clinton went hand-in-hand with Arafat into Oslo, with Yasser double-crossing everyone at every step, the Arab/Muslim world didn't hail the US as a friend but instead cooked up 9/11. They smell weakness and pounce on it. Hussein-Obama's bowing to the much-hated Arab dictators of the Middle East will not put the US into a positive light among the Arab people. Instead, they see weakness and opportunity to attack. There are now 2 possiblities: 1) Obama beats up Israel and the Arabs will see Obama as an easy push-over. 2) Obama does not beat up Israel and the Arabs will see Obama as another enemy of Islam. Either way, the next few years will show a marked deterioration in relations between the US and the Arab masses. Mark my words.
You are right on both counts! Gaza City is already the capital of Hamastan and Ramallah is already the capital city of the Pal Authority (Fatah). The question now is: what will be the capitals of the next few territories that claim to be "occupied Palestine"?
Sin makes many good points and good sense. And we aren't even on the same side. There are a few facts to face: The conflict between Israel and the Arabs is fundamentally a religious conflict. It isn't going away any time soon. Territory has little to do with the conflict. Thus, any attempt to get in the middle of this fight is guaranteed to get you a black-eye, no matter what else happens. Remember the 250 Marines killed in the bombing in Beirut? And what was that conflict all about? And what did the US get out of it? Many Arabs only want US involvement if it will press on Israel. They don't want the US to press for democracy, women's rights, freedom of religion, etc. in the Arab world. That would be internal meddling. Some Israelis would LOVE to be free of US influence. This will allow Israel to take on a truly independent policy, c.f. the current situation where Washington has to approve everything that Israel does. Then the Arabs are really gonna get a black eye. The US is actually holding Israel back. See next comment…
Why does the US persist then? Because it is in US interests. The US needs Arab oil. The US used to worry about Soviet influence in the ME and now worries about Jihad influences. Overall, it's cheaper to pay for peace in the ME, billions and all, than to wage war. Saddam Hussein proved that.
lovelyisraelis: Without agreeing with you as to every jot and tittle, that's exactly the sort of neutrality I meant. I don't believe the U.S. has a single vital national security interest in the conflict, and indeed only harms those it has by being and staying involved. Of course strict neutrality itself always raises some thorny problems, but on the whole just as you'd envision our proper neutrality, so do I. Otherwise I realize it isn't perfect, but as I said I think it's better than the alternative which is to not only believe that one knows all the answers as to what's right, and that the U.S. can and should make establish same and make it stick as well. Both assumptions seem to me to be creaky. Laurie: I said absolutely nothing about the Iranians attacking Israel directly, although now that you raise it I would observe that by taking your position to impose a solution in the I/P conflict you think is just and workable you would in a way have the U.S. undertaking a moral responsibility of getting involved to save Israel's bacon if that ever does happen and it turned out you were wrong. And I am against the U.S. undertaking such a moral responsibility. And as to what I did say my point was that its unreasonable for those who think they know what's right and what the U.S. ought to impose to ignore what I think is the reasonable possibility that Iran would simply continue doing what it's already doing in supporting Hizbullah and other extremist elements in the Palestinian movement if it set out on a revanchist course. Otherwise I said absolutely nothing about expecting anything more out of Hizbullah or Hamas or Israel than the IDF and Israel, and indeed the entire point of my prescription is that I don't think we should care to expect anything out of any of 'em. It's not our business and I don't see why we should continue to make it our problem. American: You appear to have misread my post as I don't quite understand yours which seems to think that I am in favor of the U.S. supporting Israel keeping some or all of the occupied territories. I'm not. What I'm in favor of is the U.S. continuing to observe international law by noting the illegality of absolutely every settlement that exists, and from there letting the parties fight it out over that land if they want without any U.S. involvement whatsoever other perhaps than the U.S. continuing to support international law and providing humanitarian aid to either side where needed. Other than that, nada. You folks who want the U.S. to stay involved only in *your* preferred direction watch: You're all happy now that Obama is sticking it to Israel a bit, and that's fine. It deserves it richly for its settlement grabbing. But one way or another, sooner or later the U.S. is going to fold like an origami swan in favor of Israel and just engender ever more of the world's anger and hatred and spite. And indeed I suspect it won't even be that long before you see that happening; Obama arriving at some sort of "understanding" with Netanyahu over settlement expansion, or even just negatively by not moving to try to cut off all aid to Israel so long as it continues, and he's already not doing anything but giving lip service, isn't he? (And even if he did ask to cut off aid Congress would refuse him anyway.) And that's why all I'm saying is we are better off out of it as entirely as possible. Avoids on the world and arab level all the feeling of anger and betrayal and etc. that all you are gonna feel when that happens.
I loved this headline on ethnic cleansing in Jerusalem. Tell it to the250 Muslim families that have recently moved into Jewish neighborhoods in Jerusalem. Tell it to the "starving" Arabs, male and female, who are so obese some of you would say it's an Israeli plot. Tell it to the "poor" Arabs I see in Jerusalem every day riding around in their exotic Audi TT convertibles, Jaguars, Mercedes', Range Rovers and even some lowly Cadillacs and Lexus'. Ethnic Cleansing in Jerusalem? Only in the headlines of MondoLies!
Nice characterization there. She was Jewish, therefore a "thing". Funny that a virulent racist like yourself is complaining about racism.
The irony here is that these families had the land because Jordan gave it to them. This was after Jordan drove the Jews out of East Jerusalem. As it happens, the Palestinians in this area are being evicted because the courts found that the land belonged to Jews before the Jordanians took over. So one government took the land from Jews to give to Palestinians and one government took the land back from Palestinians to give to Jews. Guess which one the Jew haters here are going to protest against?
No it's factual. You just don't like it.
They either die quietly or go out with a bang.
"Holocaust denial. Typical" Says a Nakba denier.
You have a sickenss that is fscism, which the Nazis also had.
Israel is of no strategic value to Russia, becasue Russia already has a good relationship with most Arab states. The Westerm imperiliasts knoew they were not trusted by Arab states, so they chose the option of implnting a protagomnit in the Middle East. Russia doesn;tg have to fo that. US and Israeli interts are different. A safe Israel is what brought 911 to the US.
I am a Zionist.
"We don't want a two state solution " We know. Do you want a one state solution with a majority Arab populaiton? That's the only alternative.
Do you support suicide bombings? Do you believe them to be justified? Do you believe it's better to "Go out with a bang?"
Israel is of high strategic value to both Russia and China. Blaming Jews for 911 is a common conspiracy theory. I reject that.
Israel vilated Olso from day 1. As Dennis Ross admitted, the US were not legitimate mediators between Arafat and Israel. 911 was a respone to US unconditional supoprt for Israel. Your reference to Barack Obama as "Hussein-Obama" exposes your racsim and biggotry. There are now 2 possiblities: 1) Obama is fair and even haded in the dealing with Israel and the Palestinias, which woudl be a first for any US president, and Israle does the right thing. 2) Obama is fair and even haded and Israel, and Israel goes it alone. Jake is prying for a deterioration in relations between the US and the Arab States, as though that were even possible given how bad they became under Bush.
More lies Jake, The The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is a territorial dispute. If it were a fundamentally a religious conflict, 22 Arab states woudl not have singed the Arab Peace initiaive which offers to recognize Isrel as per the 1967 borders and even normlize relations with Israel. "Remember the 250 Marines killed in the bombing in Beirut?" Remember that was a war the US was involved with? "And what did the US get out of it? " The US got out of it period and left. "They don't want the US to press for democracy, women's rights, freedom of religion, etc. in the Arab world. " Democracy, women's rights, freedom of religion are social issues which are the business of those states. On the other hand , the Israeli Palestine conflict is an international issue. "Some Israelis would LOVE to be free of US influence. " So would most Americans. While this will allow Israel to take on a truly independent policy, it would also dramatically limit Israel's options. Wiuthout US money, US arms, US lond gurantess (that it doesn't actualy repay), US protection at the UN, and US trade, Israel would fast become a militarilly weak 3rd world country. Without US wepons, Israel cannot give anyone a black eye. For exmaple, the conflict with Lebanon was a mssive finiancial setback for Israel. As usual, the US footed the bill, but withouth the US to do it next time, Israel would still be feeling the pain. Without US bombs and bunker busters, Israel would not have destroyed as much fo Souther Lebann as they did. Without free fuel from the US, US supplies F-16's would not have been able to conduct as many sorties. Israel know this which is why they not only welcome US influence, but insist there is no difference between US and Israeli interests.
Jordan gave no land to anybody. The land was bought. Jews only owned 7% of the land and Israel had demolished far more than 7% of homes belonging to Palestinians, not including the homes fo the 800,000 Arabs they ethnically cleasnsed.
Israel has no relevance to the oil supply to the US. The US Israeli ties are historic, but there are a number of reasons. Israel is another excuse to spend money on arms, which the weapons manufacturers love. it comes out of the taxpayer's pocket after all. The US is not worried about Jihadists. The support for Israel is based on distrust of Western Empire. The West do not trust Arab leaders because Arab leaders do not trust them. Israel is the West's pitbull.
That depends on how many more roads and walls Israel builds that makes it impossible for Palestinians to get to either capital.
I suppose I should take it with a grain of salt, seeing as how this site posts lies a lot, but the article above said that; "They have lived in Sheikh Jarrah since 1956, when the Jordanian Government and UNRWA gave them houses as part of a project to help Palestinians forced to flee their properties." So the Jordanians and UNRWA gave it to them. The Jews owned more of the land than that, and most of the rest was owned by the government or simply unowned. This myth that the Palestinians owned all the land that wasn't registered as being in private Jewish hands is just that, a myth. The number keeps going up, it was 650,000, now 800,000. I wonder how long it will take the Palestinians to start claiming it was over a million. You are pretty typical of the Palestinians, wrapped up in myths and hatred. Here's one I've been meaning to ask you. What would it take to convince you that the Israelis have the capability to kill everyone in Gaza and the West Bank? The Palestinians' mentality seems to be that anything short of the total extermination of the Palestinians is an indication of Israel's weakness. It really isn't that surprising. The Palestinians know that they (the Palestinians) would exterminate the Jews if they had the power, so they think that the only reason the Israelis haven't exterminated the Palestinians is that the Israel is weak. I'm really not sure how to deal with an enemy like that. I mean, if the Israelis wiped out 3/4 of the Palestinian population and then said "are you ready to surrender" the 1/4th of the Palestinians left would say "aha, you are asking for peace, we knew you were too weak to kill us all".
I believe that when people have nothing to live for, they should fight back, the same way the heroic Jews in the Warsaw ghetto did.
You are a right wing Zionist extremist.
Israel's only strategic value ithat is starts wars with it's neighbors and neither Russia nor China are in teh business of starting wars. Russia and China are interested in resources and Israel has none. Israel was one ot eh motivations for the 911 attacks. Bin Laden said so. Jews had nothing to do with it.
Agreed. And you are a left-wing Anti-Zionist extremist.
Is that your way of saying you support suicide bombings? Feel free to say what you believe.
Israel has far more Strategic value than "starting wars" We have a great technology and military sector that would be ripe for exporting. US influence scuttles a lot of important alliances and military deals that could be done. I don't think it's appropriate to blame the Jews and Israel for 911