The other night "60 Minutes" did a heroic profile of Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who’s heading the Afghanistan forces. One of McChrystal’s big themes was: No indiscriminate shooting at civilians. No airfire at towns to get at insurgents. This will alienate the people and we will lose the war. At one point there was a reference to some 250 civilian deaths, as a tremendous blow to the American presence in Afghanistan.
How can Americans learn these important lessons about hearts and minds, and legs and arms too, without applying them to Israel/Palestine? Just as Iraq taught us that you must bring terrorist Sunni’s into a government because the terrorism arises from political disputes over land and resources and power, and that lesson applies to Hamas in Gaza. You cannot marginalize Hamas, Taghreed El-Khodary of the New York Times told my delegation last June, and the editors of the Times owe it to their readers to have her explain why this is true. And you cannot blow up civilians without consequences. As Israel just did in Gaza, killing hundreds of civilians in indiscriminate attacks, many employing white phosphorus, as documented by Judge Goldstone in a report alleging crimes against humanity.
Mike Hanna of the Century Foundation, who is disturbed by that Goldstone report, explains the difference. He says that it is the difference between Fighting an Insurgency and Maintaining an Occupation. When you are fighting an insurgency, you must keep the people on your side against the insurgents, and drive a wedge between the two. When you are maintaining an occupation, the people are your enemy.
Five decades now of occupation; and what has it done to the Palestinians and the Israelis…. And to us too, as Israel’s joined-at-the-hip protector.
McChrystal says, I don’t want an occupation! And in Geneva, the U.S. dismisses the Goldstone report, by calling Hamas terrorists, a judgment we withheld for our own interests in Iraq. I believe these lessons are seeping in to the American consciousness, and will end the special relationship with Israel. But how long, Lord, how long?
Obama was a fool to not clean house as soon as he got elected. Tell me, what victory, or even decent endings, are these military guys going to hand Obama, which they couldn’t give Bush. My God, they adored Bush, and they still did nothing but lie to Bush, and give him some of the worst and falsest advice ever. So what are they gonna do for Obama? Simple! They plan to screw him good!
Mission No.1 for our Armed Forces today is to avoid an accounting, of any kind (moral, military, financial, legal, medical, administrative, you name it) for the last eight years. To gain this end, they will gladly, cheerefully sacrifice Obama. They must have increasing chaos and escalation.
Obama seems to have none of the common sense one would expect.
As a general rule, I wouldn’t trust the advice of those who were willing to both participate in illegal invasions, and on top of that, not even give the President they are planning this invasion with the benefit of truthful advice.
They will screw Obama. That’s the only thing you can count on.
True, but Obama is the POTUS. He has the power to bring the malignant ones up short. He’s not doing it; he’s a candy ass. This actually means he is only concerned at root with making sure how own nuclear family lives high off the hog, and after that,
his self-identified African Americans replace the whites as the status quo beneficiaries of any USA domestic or foreign policy. Pretty obvious, no?
What on earth has Obama done to have “his self-identified African Americans replace the whites as the status quo beneficiaries of any USA domestic or foreign policy. Pretty obvious, no?”
Obama has some black agenda? No, it’s not obvious at all. Why don’t you explain it?
“McChrystal says, I don’t want an occupation!”
Oh, horseshit! That’s all we know how to do, is invade third-world (okay, second-and-a-half-world) countries and “fight” with what are, when you get right down to it, lightly armed civilians, women and children.
Of course, they are awfully skilled at the media minipulation needed to make these lightly armed civilians scare an entire country on the other side of the world.
Yeah, but the sad part is the rest of the world can see our war efforts for what they really are. Our emperor has no clothes.
I’ll be impressed when McChrystal starts practicing what he preaches, maybe. Honestly, anyway? That cat’s out of the bag. You can’t unkill the civilians we’ve already killed with our reckless military campaign. We’ve already lost the battle for hearts and minds. Now it’s just a question of how many people have to die (on all sides of this conflict) before we are gone — either because we do the smart thing and withdraw, or because our war effort collapses on itself and we run out of ways to send our soldiers to their deaths.
Horseshit! One way to show sincerity would be submit US soldiers, high command and mercenaries to Afghan law. Let Afghans investigate and prosecute Blackwater murders, Bargham prison, wedding bombings and other crimes. Let McChrystal and company stand trail and serve time in Afghan prisons. Then we can talk.
Somewhat unrelated…
Reminder: Roman Polanski raped a child
Polanski supporters seem to have so much in common with Israel supporters. ” Sure, Israel did some horrible things, but has it not suffered enough? Look at all of Israel’s talent and democracy. Have pity on the holocaust orphan. ” I can see Benny Morris argue that Polanski should have finished his child rape job by drowning the child in the hottub.
Lots of truth here in the fundy psychology. Fox news made a point of saying Polanski
was given a break as he was a “white male” and nobody delved further, that is, would he be given such a break over 30 years if he we were not a Jew?
Which “occupation”. 50 years would be 1959. What happened then?
I’m glad that Hamas was called terrorist. It is a descriptive term.
Do you want only Israel to be guilty of war crimes and terror, or does the judgement describe an actual behavior, rather than a side.
Actually, it’s a political label, not a truly descriptive term. That’s why Israel could get away with assassinating dozens of Muslims in Europe and elsewhere during Operation Wrath of God and not be labeled “terrorists.” That’s why we aren’t characterized as terrorists, even though we kidnap people and torture them, drop bombs on wedding parties, attack civilian targets directly, etc.
But the Obama Administration doesn’t refer to Israeli war crimes or terrorism–they only refer to Hamas’s terrorism.
So would you also be glad if Israel was called terrorist? Do you want the Obama Administration to be evenhanded on this, or are you only glad when Palestinian crimes are described this way?
A descriptive term, you mean like the Irgun or Stern Gang? Please be clear.
I think also there is the real question of how much saying these things is merely public affairs by a savvy black ops veteran, just as the IDF are the ‘most moral army’ he is saying these things but is it that actually happens in Afghanistan. Afghans can tell us but their access to media is limited (again the parallels) so far those who have got word out tell us this is all horseshit for domestic consumption while the slaughter continues.
An excellent post, Phil.
I just find the entire thing unbelievable. What does Obama think these guys are gonna do for him that they were unwilling to do for Bush? Doesn’t he think that if they could have given Bush and the Repubs a “victory” or even a decent ending, they would have?
But they couldn’t. And now Obama is asking these same people “What’s the situation, what are my options?” What a fool! Of course they have an answer: “Just don’t look at us. We were just the poor prisoners of events out of our control”
I have never seen a guy so avidly covering the backs of everyone who is going to stick a knife into his. Obama is a chump.
I’d say Obama is very cynical. His made agenda is to make sure his family makes out good materially, and his second agenda is reparations in any form whatsoever. That’s him in a nutshell.
“his second agenda is reparations in any form whatsoever.”
Exactly what do you mean by that, Citizen? Are you saying that Obama is subverting or sabotaging the democratic process to unfairly give people “reperations”? Is health reform on of those “reperations”?
Have you just come from a tea party, Citizen? Cause there’s jam all over your face.
What do you mean by “reparations” exactly? I can’t imagine you’re referring to reparations to African Americans for slavery. Thus far Obama has shown he won’t touch that — or any of the primary concerns of the African American community for that matter, like continued vote disenfranchisement and bank swindling practices that were definitively aimed at middle class African Americans — with a ten foot pole.
And gee, you wouldn’t want to detail how the Obama family is enriching itself at the cost of us Americans, would you?
If you’re not too busy worrying about “death panels” and whether the Black Muslims are coming to throw Grandma out of the hospital and into the street to make way for gang- members who got shot.
I can’t understand you! Why do you think that your far-right noodlings are somehow a good match for a site which questions Zionism? Oh, I forgot, Zionism is left wing, like neo-conservatism. Oy, I’m so mixed up.
Obama has never, not once, ever said he will seek “reperations”.
Or are you just afraid that if the givernment does anything to make life less onerous for those with less money, the benefits will go unfairly to those people who want “reperations”?
Citizen, you are simply never going to believe that ZIonism is (whatever it started out to be or said it was) a creature of the right. Of the right. Do you get it?
You will not find a ready market for right-wing blather at an anti-Zionist site.
You just figure that anyone who is anti-Zionist must be right wing, because Zionism is left-wing? Yeah, that makes sense.
“Reperations”, my God, what stupidity.
Shouldn’t we talk about why they have less money? I see a connection between the Democrats’ abandonment of their unionized worker constituency and their abject capitulation to the GOP’s free trade, pro-Wall Street agenda on the one hand, and their pushing of health care as a freebie to the peons on the other. This arrangment was enshrined by the Clintonistas and the “centrist” DLC, but I see no reversal under Obama, notwithstanding his smooth populist rhetoric. The Democrat agenda for the working class: you’ll be taken care of when you’re sick, but you’ll be hosed the rest of the time.
Yes, Mooser
That’s what I am saying. The tea parties are not merely the result of astrosturf
plantings. You got a Medicare Advantage Plan?
America First,
“The Democrat agenda for the working class: you’ll be taken care of when you’re sick, but you’ll be hosed the rest of the time.”
Of course, the dems are part and parcel of the pauperization of the American middle class, and I know very few thinking people who believe otherwise. And the goal of both parties is to keep the rickety go-cart known as the American social, political, and economic system going as long as possible.
But on healthcare, I side with those dems who want a medicare for all plan. Yeah, sure, it helps the creaky system go on a bit longer but that’s what dems have historically done—throw a few crumbs to the masses to placate them. But that doesn’t negate the fact that the public direly needs healthcare reform. Will we get it? Probably only in the stingiest, dysfunctional form, but I support the goal of universal coverage.
Mark Twain once told a US Senator “I have a book at home in which every word of all your speeches is printed!” The Senator was fuming, and demanded Twain send him a copy. The Senator received a Websters Unabridged Dictionary from Twain.
But with Witty, it’s so much simpler, simpler than a Chinese menu! (It’s more like the pho place); pick 1, 2, 3 or 4, or mix and match as necessary:
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
I think that’s right. Witty can always be reduced to hasbara 101.
And you can always be reduced to the signs the teabaggers carry.
Mooser, I would advise just a little bit of caution and self control. Let’s give Citizen a chance to explain himself… just in case. And it’s one thing to confront him on the battle ground he laid for himself… but it’s a bit out of bounds to carry that outside of that arena and start flame war style exchanges on other topics.
I found his “reparations” comment pretty reprehensible, if he does mean what he sounds like, but let’s not allow that to metastasize over the whole thread.
And you will always be reduced to a cut rascist guy with a crappy motorcyle and ignorant
shiksas to bow to you.
As Obama told the cretin, Joe the Plumber, let’s spread the wealth. ACORN
is the way. Luckily, Wall Street is on board. Next stop, more milking of the milk way,
never underestimate the power of white guilt.
Citizen, tax and economic policies have spread the wealth upward, and not by accident.
And if you don’t think the hullaballoo about Acorn isn’t a convenient sideshow to distract the public from some serious problems facing the bottom 90% of the citizenry, I don’t think you’ve been paying much attention.
For three decades, I believed that ‘Israel is the most moral army in the world’ myth. For three decades, I bought the fiction that the IDF troops were highly-disciplined and well-trained.
Then I witnessed the attempted Gaza genocide – I wont call it a war: the Palestinians didn’t have the armor or weaponry or troops to fight back; and as Tom Friedman wrote, Israel’s goal was to inflict “heavy pain on the Gaza population.” It wasn’t military wonderment or might. It wasn’t brilliant military strategy carried out by a disciplined army. It was ‘lets use all the American toys we have and dump them across the wall’. White phosphorous (now admitted to). Shooting civilians like fish in a barrel. Allowing troops to enter homes, defecate on civilian belongings and in drawers, write graffiti on walls, and terrorize children, with the blessing and urging of military rabbis. Destroying schools and temporary hospital camps. Etcetera. Etcetera. Military run amok.
The Israeli Army has never fought a prolonged battle outside of its geographical comfort zone. They’re big talkers, like the military advice they gave to Saakashvili for years until last summer, then beetle-assed it back home before the fighting began. (Saakashvili lost.) The Israelis wouldn’t last two weeks in Iran if they had to actually fight there, which is why they need our troops, and our might, to pull off their preemptive strike. They’re good at hit-and-run strikes, like Entebbe, which makes for good movie of the week re-runs later. The Israelis dont have thousands of years of military strategy and military discipline under their belt like the Iranians/Persians, whose history shows they know how to use it wisely. Wise military leaders, unlike Bush and Cheney, know war is the last resort.
Yeah, the truth is the IDF (or IOF) has never really been tested, for example, like
in the battle of the bulge, where air Supremacy and gas for the tanks reigned supreme.
Oh sure they have. Remember Lebanon in 2006? The Israeli military, while fantastically successful when their opponents were homes and villages and power plants and other bits of civilian infrastructure, and UN observation outposts… they were decidedly less efficacious when they actually had to face men with guns, instead of women and children.
Chaos, I don’t recall the name of the US military commander who said it, but it was said during the cold war that the Israeli military would not last 30 minutes on the north German plains in a Nato-Warsaw Pact engagement.
The real weakness of the Israeli military is the home front. Israelis are all hot for war, as long as the war is fought (as Israeli wars always are) on someone else’s turf and as long as no nice Israeli sons are being wasted. But Israeli mothers are capable of storming the IDF headquarters if they think there is a possibility of the hairs on their childrens’ heads being harmed. Israelis cheer at the sight of Arab homes going up in smoke and flames, but they howl in outrage if a rocket lands on their own roof.
The Israeli high command knows this quite well, and they will be careful never to take on an enemy capable of fighting back.
“The road that leads to war is wide, the way home again very narrow”
I keep on wondering if Israel ever thought they would be all alone there, without all the neighboring countries under colonial control. I will have to look into this later on this week.
Israel isn’t alone out there. They have the neutered neo-colonies of Egypt and Jordan as house pets, and Syria seems to want to join up as well.
Mooser, how long do you think Israel First will be the USA’s patriotic song? I guess you should first thereupon think about your shiksa wife, as Phil also does. There’s a vision
that thinks of those shicksas as naively ignorant. And so?
What on earth are you talking about? I vaguely see you are trying to reproach me with marrying a non-Jewish women, but I really don’t see how that’s your business or what you are trying to make out of it.
At any rate, I don’t exepct any changes in the US-Israel relationship to affect my marriage, no.
And what the hell is so wrong with reperations for the descendants of slaves? Be a better use for our money than sending it to Israel.
” I guess you should first thereupon think about your shiksa wife, as Phil also does.”
And people thought that Iran President guy was hard to translate! Anybody have any idea what he’s trying to sputter?
Gee, Mooser, look at what you and Phil have said about their wives. We are actually listening to both of you.
Hey, I don’t know where this spat is going but honestly, Mooser, you’ve been both more coherent and more civil than Citizen — who’s gone from apparently(?) accusing Obama of seeking reparations and being part of the “vast ACORN conspiracy” (To do what, exactly? The nefarious intentions of helping poor people register to vote and coaching honest families to stay away from toxic mortgages?) to going on about yours (and Phil’s) “shiksa” wives. And yes, I know the term, it doesn’t bear repeating at this point.
Citizen, you want my advice? Lay off the right wing Kool-Aid. Obama is not, in point in fact, “tryin’ to keep the white man down.”
On a related note, Haaretz is running this story today: “MI: IDF needs new ethics code for war on terror” (link to haaretz.com
“The Israel Defense Forces should adopt a “Code of Ethics for the War on Terror,” because its existing ethical code is insufficient, according to Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin, the head of Military Intelligence… the current code does not sufficiently address one of the army’s most pressing challenges: asymmetric warfare against terrorist organizations that operate amid a civilian population, such as the 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon or January’s Operation Cast Lead against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.”
Classic Groucho: “I have principles, and if you don’t like them, I have others.”
you didn’t point out the black humour bit:In an interview with Haaretz in February, Kasher said that Cast Lead was conducted in the spirt of the proposed new code he co-authored with Yadlin, and that “the norms the commanders applied in Gaza were generally proper.”
“Mooser September 29, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Citizen, you are simply never going to believe that ZIonism is (whatever it started out to be or said it was) a creature of the right. Of the right. Do you get it?”
What makes Zionism a right-wing movement at this point? I know that Marx criticized Jewish identy, but most of the Sabras that I met were definitely Lefties. One of the kibbutzim I worked on ( a founders’ kibbutz) displayed a portrait of Marx, and only took it down in the 1980s–I only saw the pictures, but it was displayed prominently.
If Zionism is on the right end of the spectrum, it is on the crazy end where the differences are defined by whether or not non-Jews get to participate in the insanity.
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