A group of churchmen organized by the National Council of Churches, along with Churches on Middle East Peace, has called for "bold American leadership" to end the conflict:
Both sides must take steps to move the process forward, and we support the President’s efforts to end Israeli settlement growth, to halt Palestinian violence and incitement. It is now time to move to the next stage of diplomacy and to address the tough issues that must be resolved to bring this conflict to an end.
Why do "concerned," supposedly well-intentioned, people not study the problem more? The American churches finally support the two-state solution when Israel has stolen so much Palestinian property that all Palestine is now crushed into a single state, yet the churches intone the reductive [Likud] mantra that,
"we support the President’s efforts to end Israeli settlement growth, to halt Palestinian violence and incitement."
At last they say aloud that settlements are a hindrance to peace, but do not call for them to be dismantled. We heard more calls for reparations in one twelve-minute 60 Minutes segment about Bernard Madoff’s victims, than from "mainstream" groups ever about the land that the Israeli government has taken from the people of Palestine. Always, when I hear accusations of "violence," I can’t help assuming that the speaker must mean IDF war crimes and settler [murderous] mayhem. Even more, "incitement" seems infinitely true of official Israeli government policy: pretend to be open to peace and then commit some literally unspeakable provocation–unspeakable in that Israel knows that "our" press will censor the facts–in order to set up some retaliation that Likud-AIPAC can blame for its fantasy of existential threats. What kills me is that it’s our American fault. We pay for it all.
The reason for the relative lack of criticism of Israel, is because the world understands the exchange as a war between Hamas and Israel, and Hamas’ history of gruesome terror incidents, 7 years of shelling civilians in southern sovereign Israel, that it is holding Shalit for now 3+ years without even red cross contact, and its commitment to never recognize Israel are well known.
The Gazan civilians are ILL-SERVED.
How can there be a war with the Palestinians when the Palestinians aren’t even allowed to have an army?! This hypocrisy is sick and twisted. When Hamas captures Israeli soldiers, suddenly you flick your “war” switch off and its “kidnapping.” Then Israel wages a massacre on the Gazan population — between the crushing vice of the siege and the deliberate and now documented attacks on civilians — on children, Richard! — and suddenly *bamf!* it’s all “fog of war” to you.
I hope you’re happy Rich, because it’s because of hypocrites like you that our soldiers were sent into Iraq. It’s because of your permissive attitudes and double standards that our brave men and women have been ordered to torture, to bomb wedding parties, to destroy people’s lives who were never a threat to us. At all. Not even slightly.
A lot of blood is on your hands, Richard. And eventually, the death of America will be on your head as well, because of the choices you’ve made and the crimes you seek to justify.
War with Hamas, NOT with Paletinians perse.
You don’t understand the distinction?
Yeah. I understand that when you slaughter over a thousand civilians in less than a month, level thousands of structures, and deliberately shoot dead children… you’re not at war. You’re engaged in a massacre.
This is like saying Nazi Germany was “at war” with the Warsaw Ghetto. Do you think that, Richard? Was that your idea of war too?
Witty must not read European newspapers. The reason for the nearly total lack of criticism of Israel in the USA is explained here, about half way into the clip showing a rare moment of truth in our MSM TV:
link to whatreallyhappened.com
Witty, like Hannity, is shocked, I tell you, shocked.
As a good citizen, Citizen is always ready to take the word of ex-cons. But then again, Americans were always rebels.
Mooser, seriously? Can you stow the cat fight maybe? At this point I don’t care who wins the pissing contest between you and Citizen, I just want it to stop getting splashed with urine, thank you.
Sorry, sorry , Traficant is actually one of my favorite characters in American politics. I was just anticipating the response in an ironic and inappropriate manner.
After all, everybody who reads my comments takes the word of an ex-con. Or at least considers it.
Heh. Okay. And I know it’s going to be the pot calling the kettle black at some point because I can get into pretty heated exchanges myself, so. I should probably apologize in advance, heh.
Yup, it is very bad form to let rhetorical animousities spill over from one thread to the next. But that “reperations” really got to me. Ah well, best to let it go.
And away it goes…
Sure Mooser, I always take the word of ex-cons. All my comments here for over two years show just that. Now, do you want to address Traficant’s message, rather than
his status as an ex-con? I’d say Traficant’s message is more pertinent and objective
than Witty’s, which was the point of my comment. You don’t know me at all, so why
are you attacking me personally? Any regular here can find much more support of
Traficant’s message than of Witty’s. If you disagree with Traficant’s message, please tell us why. Thanks!
Nonsense, Richard, as usual. The reasons for the relative lack of criticism of Israel are
A) Ignorance. Most people in the US don’t know much about Israel’s crimes
B) Fear of being called an anti-semite. I think this may actually be more important than A.
I’m disappointed with the NCC that they adopted Obama’s cowardly way of discussing the conflict–Israeli settlements vs. Palestinian violence. It’s Israeli violence, Israeli settlements, and Israeli apartheid against Palestinian violence, and there’s a lot less Palestinian violence than Israeli. This isn’t bold American leadership–it’s more of an example where people advocating extreme favoritism for Israel are criticized by people who want somewhat less extreme favoritism for Israel. Woohoo, progress.
Rule of thumb–When Witty approves, there’s something wrong. The rule isn’t always correct, but it’s close enough for government work.
I read Witty’s comment as a ringing declaration of his faith in both the success and the eternal efficacy of Hasbara!
With the added bonus of a condensed hasbara vignette, as he gives us flashes of the main themes. That’s right Richard, you just play on those themes, and with Pres. Ahmamumbles of Iran keeping the Holocaust pot boiling, you got it made. Israel may last a hundred years!
Test your theses.
Ask around why people regard Israel as sympathetic, while Palestinians as less so.
You might as well be asking white people why they think there’s a larger percentage of the black population in prison than of their own ethnicity. And yes, I have.
Appealing to racism is a very classy argument, Richard.
“Test your theses”.
I’ve done that and what you find is that many people don’t know very much about the conflict and in some depressing cases, they think of it in terms of Us (meaning good Israeli westerners) vs Them (crazy Muslim Arabs). Most people hear much more about the crimes of the Arabs than about the Israelis. Those who know something about the situation are very critical of Israel. Those who obviously just repeat what they hear in the press are more sympathetic to Israel.
Friends who sympathize with Israel do so because they think that Israel is under constant attack by terrorists and because they don’t know that Israel kills civilians in larger numbers. They know about Arab crimes, but not much about Zionist crimes. I had one friend who saw Tom Segev’s book “One Palestine, Complete” and came out with “Even back then they were attacking Jews.” If she actually read the damn book she might have found it was a bit more complicated than that, but she thought she already knew the basic facts. I have another friend who described the 2006 Lebanon War as “Israel fighting for its life”. He also assumed I would be in favor of Israel’s actions in the recent Gaza War and in the peak fighting in the spring of 2002. He was shocked by the suicide bombings then–he knew nothing about Israeli war crimes. Another, and this is back in the 90′s, repeated the claim that there was no moral equivalence between the two sides, and by this he meant that the Palestinians used terrorism, while the Israelis just knocked down some people’s houses in response. That was his view of the conflict, which echoed what he’d read in the NYT.
No one who doesn’t make a point of looking these things up is going to think differently–the press tends to follow the lead of the politicians and so at best you’ll have someone who imagines himself as pro-peace saying that the settlements are bad and Palestinian terrorism is bad, thinking that this is a fair and balanced approach. I have heard a couple of people criticizing Israel’s behavior in Gaza last January, so maybe the press did a somewhat better job on that.
One of the first question series to ask any “average American” (after listening to them yak on about sports or the latest finger nail polish) to test thesis is:
What is the Shoah? answer: huh?
What is The Holocaust? answer: I know, Hitler killed the Jews because he was a racist.
What is the Nakba. answer: huh?
A few more random questions (after they are drunk):
Do you know which two countries get the largest chunk of our foreign aid?
answer: huh?
And so on.
“I’ve done that and what you find is that many people don’t know very much about the conflict and in some depressing cases, they think of it in terms of Us (meaning good Israeli westerners) vs Them (crazy Muslim Arabs). Most people hear much more about the crimes of the Arabs than about the Israelis. Those who know something about the situation are very critical of Israel. Those who obviously just repeat what they hear in the press are more sympathetic to Israel.”
I agree, but the more people know the more they tend to side with Israel in my experience and that goes in the face of a long history of effective Nazi and Soviet propaganda, the current deep pockets effort of ethnocentric (code for racist), oil thugs of the OIC (over a billion Jew haters), the selfish big oil profiteers that don’t want anything trivial as human decency to interfere with their investments, the left that sides with any cause anti-American, and plain old neo-Nazis and anti-Semites all spouting their nonsense for the ignorant dupes like yourself to pass along as fact. It’s enough to make even me believe in miracles that more people don’t follow the rest of you lemmings over the cliff. It is a testament that average Americans are good people and will never see eye to eye with ideological terrorist supporters like writers of Mondoweiss and the sycophantic thralls that mindlessly lap up the runny mess dribbling out of their ass cracks.
Weiss, have you ever considered that just maybe, maybe fair minded clergy have considered your point of view and rejected it whole heartedly for the tripe it is. Interesting that I have yet to find Muslim clergy, and I ask every leader at every mosque I visit, that supports Israel. Does anyone else find that a bit bigoted?
“…oil thugs of the OIC…”
Seriously, barely a few sentences into your pseudo-academic scree and you fall back upon an anti-Arab epithet? I think “those in the know” can see the only thing fueling your perspective is race hatred, Mr. LeFavour.
Oil thugs. Do you honestly believe anyone would pay half the attention they do to Saudi Arabia if they had no oil? I read a report somewhere that stated if you remove oil production from the equation, the GDP of the entire ME would be less than Finland’s. Aside from Sisu and the best cold weather troops of WWII, I just can’t think of much to associate Finland with, no product comes to mind. Maybe you forget what the oil thugs do. They embargo a critical resource when we don’t do what they say. I used Japan as an example here. Japan had little to do with the ME, but in Nov of 73 there oil was cut, after joining the hostile rehetoric against Israel they had their oil supply turned back on. When it is time for a vote at the UN, do you suppose any of the emerging countries critically reliant on oil want to vote against that block? They account for 53 countries and 1 terrorist entity with observer status. Do you suppose Tibet or Taiwan deserve at least observer status? If they were Muslims in the age of fossil fuels I bet the would have it.
I criticize the guilty regardless of race or faith. Why is it that when I criticize Muslims I am labeled a racist? Muslims come in all colors.
This would be the Saudi monarchy installed by the British who are very closely allied with the Bush family and other fixtures of the American right wing corporate business community, right?
And your pitiful cries that you aren’t a racist? Your attempts to distance yourself from your own racial epithets are falling on deaf ears. You aren’t even handed in your criticism, that’s a demonstrable lie, given your posting history.
Witty, if we judge this conflict based on violence against civilians, then Israel looks far far worse than the Palestinians.
You are delusional to think the casualties/atrocities/abuse/violence are equal on both sides.
This isn’t a recent development. It’s been this way since the beginning.
If people in this country educated themselves on both sides. If they read books like ‘A Case For Israel’ and then read ‘Beyond Chutzpah’; if they read all the human rights groups work, and then the published statements by the Israeli government, and then the pro-Israel advocacy groups which masquerade as universal NGO monitor groups like…NGOMonitor -> then the only LOGICAL conclusion can be that something very criminal is going on here.
How does one explain ‘Brand Israel’? How does one explain Israel’s complete blackballing of the UN report? How come Israel didn’t cooperate? How come Israel won’t respond to the report’s allegations point-by-point thoroughly?
No, this conflict is not some abstraction. The history of this conflict has always been obfuscated and outright lied about by our intellectual cultures.
From ‘Reel Bad Arabs’ proving how Hollywood vilifies an entire people (Arabs and Muslims) – which sets the CONTEXT to which the average American feels about these people – to the inherent worthlessness of the MSM (collusion between the MSM and the interests of the people who own it).
Manufacturing Consent has already documented this. It has only gotten worse.
The MSM reflexively supports power. When you factor in ‘Jewish identity’ and all the social taboos and pressures w/ challenging/criticizing ‘Jewish identity’ and power both within the Jewish community as a Jew and outside – there is simply too much going against the Palestinians.
Their own image and identity has been defamed here in the West by popular film and art. They are also up against ‘the Jews’ thanks to ethnocentric Jews and Zionists working tirelessly to shove the memory of Jewish suffering and the Holocaust down everyones throats while simultaneously implying, as well as explicitly saying, that they speak for all Jews.
There is no honest debate in this country on the various issues of the ME.
Israel is a European colony in the heart of the Arab world. It only exists today because 800K Palestinians were kicked out of their homes.
Anyone else would resort to violence. We do not look back upon the Native Americans and call them ‘terrorists’ in the same way we do to the Palestinians. That’s because we can look back in retrospect and sympathize with them. They reacted as ANYONE else would to an entity that came to usurp them.
The ethnic cleansing of Palestine began before the Declaration of the Zionist State. This fact has been hidden from the mainstream discussion – like so many other damning facts.
So how can you parse the perceptions of both sides w/ meaningful commentary WITHOUT acknowledging AT LEAST these omitted facts?
Because you don’t think they are facts.
You deny the disparity in violence and suffering. To you, it’s an equal conflict. But this is just tactical.
Equating both sides means Israel wins – because all that matters is perception and ‘the Arabs’ have been defamed.
‘the Jews’ have been humanized (as they should, but it must be universal).
So if you have:
-Corrupt MSM
-Benign evil of a Government – meaning, ‘governments do not have friends, they only have interests’
-two identities at conflict (Zionism and ‘the Palestinians’ – although it is perceived largely as ‘the Jews’ vs ‘the Arabs’) with one identity being humanized and the other dehumanized and defamed where it matters (the US)
-large logistical disparity between both forces
-whitewashing of history sold as truth (Joan Peters, Dersh, ‘clash of civilians’, etc.)
Then of course Palestinians will look bad. Any Arab entity WOULD! But when you’re going up against ‘Jewish’ identity, you’re fucked.
“Witty, if we judge this conflict based on violence against civilians, then Israel looks far far worse than the Palestinians.”
Only if we pretend there is no difference from targeting civilians and unintended killing of civilians. And if we lower our standard of what an actual civilian is. Have you ever looked into casualty figures broken down by demographics and the forensic story this reveals?
Accepting blindly, the collateral damage argument would be just as wrong as accepting that the Palestinian resistance has always acted nobly. It hasn’t and Israel doesn’t avoid civilian casualties carefully.
The context for my conclusions comes from numerous human rights reports and the history of the conflict.
Between Lebanon 2006 and Gaza 2008, this is true w/o a doubt. Israel targeted the civilian population and infrastructure.
The common argument is that the terrorists are hiding behind the civilians. Completely dishonest.
The US Army War College debunked the notion – as illustrated by Tom Friedmann – that Hezbollah was embedded/intertwined/intermingled w/ the civilian population. The report went into great detail and was even based on testimonies from IDF soldiers in some cases.
And then there is Gaza.
No, Israel certainly targets civilians. And then when there is no massacre going on, there is the day to day acts of violence/abuse/humiliation. All the things that come w/ Israel’s occupation.
Why do “concerned,” supposedly well-intentioned, people not study the problem more?
It’s not lack of knowledge, but more a general desire not to get too far out in front (of their congregants, primarily). The Presbyterians tried to a couple of years ago and got burned. The process by which various pro-Israel types were able to get an initiative watered down and reversed within a major Protestant denomination is worth some serious study. So now they hope Obama will do the heavy lifting.
And he could have saved his poor fingers, arthritic with assorted annual audits, lots of keystrokes had he just typed “No.2, Arabs Suck!
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
Mooser,
You could condense your same diatribe to “No. 2 Israel sucks”, why don’t you follow your own advice and save bandwith for your buddys Weiss and Horowitz?
This coming from the racist guy who just used the epithet “oil thugs.” Man oooh man, you’ve got Richard Witty and Wondering Jew beat in the irony department but good.
He’s actually much less subtle–like a guy converted by a cartoon book.
This is a racist who should be banned from this site.
What is this, beat an ideologically dead horse day with Richard? LOL
I am surprised that no one is discussing the obvious 501C 3 phenomena. Where if anyone gets out of line too much their charity status is pulled. Of course, that only applies to churches which do not bow to the current administration or “powers that be” will. You will notice some can rave on about going to war with Iran, etc. – but those who oppose the war agenda get censured and threatened that they will lose their tax exempt status. This just might have a little bt to do with the silence.
“What is this, beat an ideologically dead horse day with Richard? LOL”
The problem is, in the world of politics Richard is in the mainstream–he could be an Obama Administration spokesperson. That combination of self-righteousness, ethnocentricity, hypocrisy, and moral blindness is characteristic of how many liberal Americans feel comfortable in discussing this conflict. And that’s the liberal side–the rightwing supporters are in favor of more and better war crimes.
Richard W is the minority around here, a convenient punching bag because of all the stupid things he says. But people with his views are the ones with the political power in America and depressingly enough, he’s on the left side of the spectrum.
Very true, Donald. It’s always funny how Witty thinks of himself as samizdat here, while the blog itself and most of the regular commenters are true samizdat. All the power is on Witty’s side and POV. Even Beck agrees with him. not to mention all the MSNBC and Fox News pundits, virtually all of congress, and all the men and women Obama surrounded himself with in the most inflential slots.
I am in the mainstream, but not the uninformed mainstream.
Those that have actually studied and followed the conflict over years, conclude similarly.
Newbies start where they first became aware, and don’t bother to read back except for propaganda.
Again, I recommend Laquere’s History of Zionism, for a non-biased presentation of the history of Zionism as a movement and relations with Palestine. It only goes up to 1948, but as so many invoke wrongs in 1948 and conspiracies of wrongs, it amounts to a repetition of ignorance.
Even Phil has just started his historical studies.
I strongly recommend to him the Laquere book. (It was recommended to me by Dan Fleshler, thank you Dan).
“I am in the mainstream, but not the uninformed mainstream.
Those that have actually studied and followed the conflict over years, conclude similarly.
Newbies start where they first became aware, and don’t bother to read back except for propaganda.”
Yes, Richard, we all know that all well-informed people agree with you. It’s a given.
Anyway, we’ve seen how free of propaganda you are and your recommendation of a book comes across more as a danger signal. However, I won’t conclude that Walter Laqueur is a hack just because you recommend him.
I’d suggest Tom Segev myself–he comes across as someone trying to tell the story as fairly as possible, without editorializing at all. If anything, it’s slightly biased in favor of the Zionists.
Oh, one other matter, this only applies to certain religious establishments, not others under “protected status.”
“Oh, one other matter, this only applies to certain religious establishments, not others under “protected status.” ”
Like Islamic ones, huh?
Why do you seek to constrain it to Islamic ones? Funny, the only one around here that seems to be attacking fellow Semites… is you. Assuming you’re not a Christian fundie Zionist praying for the rapture, at any rate.
I posted this response above, and there is no take it back button….
I criticize anyone of any race or religion when they are at fault, which includes underlying dogma of the religion at issue. I would criticize a religion or a people that practice ritual torture, head hunting, human sacrifice, or slavery, all native American, African, and Polynesian practices just as I criticize animal sacrifice, amputations for petty crimes, death to those who leave, slavery, supremacism, and honor killing.
If that makes me a racist or a bigot, because you have jumped to the conclusion that those things are for brown skinned people only, they deserve our compassion because they are disadvantaged, or that any of those practices and more that I did not mention are OK, then I simply do not know how to respond. When you make an empty charge, you should be prepared to back it up with some compelling evidence, don’t you agree? It says a lot about the erson making the charge.
I am not a Christian or a Jew, but my sense of right and wrong somewhat follows their core beliefs. If you think about it hard enough you might understand my point of view in light of Islamic violence directed against all other faiths on its borders. The land Israel sits on is claimed by Islam and that is the main reason we have violence, it is not about land, there are hundreds of miles of empty land in the ME.
LeFavour doesn’t seem like a Rapture nutjob, just a far-right Jingoist nutjob.
Cliff,
Why do I need to fit into a neat compartment to be accepted in your flat earth?
Congratulation though, this is the only label meant as an insult that makes any sense. I am a flag waving patriot, and I do feel we need a far more aggressive foreign policy. However, since I conduct heavy internal debate that is constantly tempered by pragmatism, I hardly feel I deserve the far right nut job portion. A jingoist? I will admit that. When I was slimmer they say I even looked like Rambo with the right props and lighting..my lips are too thin, but the character is certainly someone I identify with internally.
Now that you have pegged me, maybe we can dispense with the childish charges of racism and right winger. I am a freedomist, for lack of a better word. I promote freedom for all, and I believe as the leader of the free world we have a moral responsibility to set as many people free as we possible can. My goals are simple, but impossible. I seek truth, context, fairness, and justice, then try as best able to make a change where I can. I am here because I think this is one of the worst of the worst that is linked to a network of pundits with less than honorable intentions. This is an honest compliment for boxing me in, though I do not like you as a foul mouthed intellectual light weight that refuses to make a stand or come clean on your own motivations.
LeFavour the idiot with little memory is at it again. What is the matter, forgot what happened at 9/11 and for years afterwords? Perhaps you cannot remember the “terrorist” giving list, where viable charities were cut off among the the Muslims. Protected status my ass. You seem to excel in lying comments, wrong site.
OK, I’m curious. Which religious establishments are under “protected status”?
Mr. Witty believes the lack of criticism of Israel is because the world understands the exchange as a war between Hamas and Israel, and Hamas’ history of gruesome terror incidents, 7 years of shelling civilians in southern sovereign Israel, that it is holding Shalit for now 3+ years without even red cross contact, and its commitment to never recognize Israel are well known. I would suggest it is because people have learned the intimidation lesson well (think the film Rachel at the SFrancisco Jewish Film festival), and read what is happening at Human Rights Watch: (In addition, Amnesty has just issued an apology in their newsletter for upsetting some with their take on the Gaza incursion, almost begging for continued support)
September 25, 2009 2:27 PM
by Gerald M. Steinberg
Executive Director, NGO Monitor
Wiesel, Dershowitz and Woolsey: Investigation of Human Rights Watch is Essential
Leading academics, journalists, legal and security experts, including Elie Wiesel, Prof Alan Dershowitz, former CIA Director R. James Woolsey and Prof Judea Pearl, today called for an independent review and reform of Human Rights Watch (HRW). This follows NGO Monitor’s recent in-depth study of HRW’s Middle East activities over the past several years.
The letter highlights the finding that: “On Middle East issues, HRW has degenerated into a political lobby”, aimed primarily at Israel. The recent Goldstone report on the Gaza war, which includes 30 unverified references to HRW claims, underscored this bias. In addition, Richard Goldstone himself was until recently an HRW board member.
This public letter cites HRW’s attempts “to consistently and disproportionately single-out Israel for condemnation”. NGO Monitor’s analysis of HRW’s 2008 publications shows more attention was focused on Israel than on Iran, Syria, Egypt, Jordan and other regimes in the region.
The signatories, members of NGO Monitor’s International Advisory Board, also criticize HRW’s recent fundraising event in Saudi Arabia as further evidence of the organization’s radical agenda. In Riyadh, the head of HRW’s Middle East division referred to the need to combat “pro-Israel pressure groups”.
Recent revelations over HRW’s senior Middle East staff reinforce NGO Monitor’s analysis showing the central role of ideologues, rather than human rights experts. Heading the division is Sarah Leah Whitson (who actively supported the “Caterpillar” Israel boycott campaign, and led the HRW fundraising trip to Saudi Arabia). Deputy director Joe Stork spent 20 years as a founder and editor of the radical anti-Zionist Middle East Report (MERIP), including participation in a “Zionism and Racism” conference in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, before joining HRW.
Last week, HRW suspended ‘senior military analyst’ Marc Garlasco and launched an investigation following the exposure of his obsessive interest in Nazi memorabilia.
As a result, the letter calls for HRW’s board members to instigate a wider inquiry, a “full independent review” which “should include the replacement of senior officials, particularly in the Middle East division”. Signatories also recommend “the adoption of firm guidelines to prevent such abuses in the future”.
NGO Monitor’s President, Prof Gerald Steinberg said: “Having carefully documented HRW’s one-sided Middle East work for several years, it is clear that the organization places a political agenda above universal human rights values. This letter reflects the urgent need for an independent and comprehensive review, in order to put a firm end to HRW’s moral bankruptcy”.
——– ENDS ————
The full text of the public letter is as follows:
“Founded over 30 years ago to protect political dissidents from repressive regimes, the leaders of Human Rights Watch have long since lost sight of the original ethos and values. On Middle East issues, HRW has degenerated into a political lobby, utilizing the façade of human rights and international law to promote a radical agenda.
As documented by NGO Monitor’s comprehensive research report, HRW is a leading player in the international campaign to demonize Israel. Time and again, HRW’s publications are shown to lack credibility or the impartiality necessary for moral judgments. In the Middle East region, which is dominated by regimes that violate human rights on a daily basis, HRW officials have chosen to consistently and disproportionately single-out Israel for condemnation.
Far fewer resources are devoted to Libya, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia and Syria. And HRW’s disregard of human rights in favor of hostility towards Israel is underscored by their virtual silence over the fate of Gilad Shalit, and a refusal to condemn Hamas’ widely documented use of human shields during the recent Gaza conflict.
Recently, HRW’s agenda was further exposed when senior officials from the organization held a dinner to raise funds in Saudi Arabia — one of the world’s most notorious human rights abusers. In making her presentation, Sarah Leah Whitson, head of the Middle East division, emphasized HRW’s contribution in using the rhetoric of international law to isolate Israel, and the need to combat critics associated with “pro-Israel pressure groups”.
In order for the organization to have any future relevance, we call upon HRW’s board members to institute a full independent review and reform in the organization for which they are responsible. This should include the replacement of senior officials, particularly in the Middle East division, who have been instrumental in HRW’s decline, and the adoption of firm guidelines to prevent such abuses in the future”.
Signed by the following NGO Monitor International Advisory Board members:
Elie Wiesel
Prof Alan Dershowitz – Harvard University, lawyer and author
R. James Woolsey – Former Director of Central Intelligence (1993-95)
Elliott Abrams – Former US Deputy National Security Advisor for Global Democracy Strategy.
Douglas Murray – Director, the Centre for Social Cohesion
Prof Judea Pearl – UCLA and President, Daniel Pearl Foundation
Tom Gross – Journalist and international affairs commentator
Ha! And supposedly it’s the Saudi’s pushing the international human rights organizations around? What a joke.
That’s Zionists for you. Destroying everything that stands in their way, even social justice. Taking the metaphorical torch to their own Torahs, really.
International Advisory Board
So international means US + Israel + GB?
What happened to Gush Shalom’s Forensic Accounting Report of NGO Monitor? Nothing yet it seems. But I thought that was a very good idea.
Response by Marc Gallasco. The pattern is by now familiar to all here. Just sling a little dirt most of it will stick, since people are too lazy to check.
Marc: “As an American child, I learned that Germans were the bad guys; as I got to know my grandfather, I realized that not all Germans were Nazis.”
Germans in the USA are rarely heard from as speakers for their own ethnicity and culture. I subscribe to a German-American newspaper, one of the very few remaining
when at one time German competed against English as the first language. I will say only that America in general has absolutely no clue as to the positive contributions
of German Americans to the best ideals of the USA. That’s a shame.
Cheryl,
Many so called humans rights organzations have long since lose their moral compass. I joined Amnesty International at one point but quickly left the organization when I could not get the to act on any local issues or actual human rights violations. They are directed by an anti-Israel bias. Fact finding is only done in support of the agenda.
Only the liars need stay away from the issue, they are the ones feeding the bonfire at the feet of the Israeli Jews. There are plenty of us that are tired of your ilk legitimizing the call to genocide in you utterly fake support of the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians.
Hey, ML, give us some details. Show us how those human rights orgs are biased against Israel’s activities. Do you think our USA congress people give the real scoop to the USA masses? If so, why? If not, why? Who would you point to as giving us the real scoop?
You will have to narrow your questions. I have no intentions of drafting a thesis to be called long winded.
But just for an example, HRW relies on Arab statistics for casualty figures then reports them as factual. HRW condemns Israel at a rate of something like 11 to 1. A people that glorify suicide and mass murder, (Phillip Weiss sickeningly interrupted a filmed interview to pay homage to posters of these serial killers in a recent video clip of his terrorist support vacation in Gaza) , the same people that arbotraoily execute collaborators and hang their corpses for public abuse, the same people that time rocket fire for the 15 minutes Jewish school children are running home in fear, the ame people that don’t just capture the enemy in battle, but commit crimes against humanity by spending resources tunneling into Israel to kidnap hostages, the same people that glorify savages that lynch lost policemen and shoot at a mother’s swollen womb.
There is a lot to criticize, has HRW drafted a condemnation of the sharia gender apartheid in Gaza, the honor killings, or the reinstitution of crucifixion? There is much to be criticized.
Does HRW place the conflict in context? Has HRW ever considered the difficulty in defending your own civilians against criminals that have no compunction of hiding and placing war making material and arms in the midst of their own? The Nazi, alphabet letter v, claims it is legitimate to have bombs in your house but not legitimate for it to be blown up. Like HRW he has a double standard. HRW is more interested in forcing a political outcome than of watching over human rights. At Amnesty I met a stone wall when trying to push to condemn Arab atrocity, “who would we report it too anyway? They have no government to do anything about our report.” That just about sums it up, huh? Amnesty will cherry pick what to condemn but they can’t expect change in the terrorists, meanwhile dupes and propagandists use these reports to pretend they have legitimacy of cause…but you don’t, or more people would accept you, and less would laugh at you. The only people taking you serious are the ill informed, that is why you refuse to answer my questions.
As to Congress, I do not give them super power status. They do not know more than anyone else, they are mere mortals from what I can see, but I have only met Representative Pete Hoekstra in person. I have been invited to a luncheon with Representative Thaddeus McCotter this Sunday and I intend to find out what he knows about the faux legitimacy of the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians and to make sure he is well informed if he isn’t already.
What? You have no answer for the actual questions? My, what a surprising turn of events.
Chaos,
If I say I am neutral and proceed to condemn side A 11 of 12 times I condmen a side when a long legitimate list of things to concemn about side B exists, you don’t see this evidence of bias? Since 2006 it was 87 anti-Israel reports and 8 anti-Arab reports. I know you feel your special victim group can do not wrong, but do any of the things I mentioned count as social ills in your world?
Your reaction proves my reluctance to detail anything for you. If I thought for a moment you had my depth of knowledge I might feel more inclined to continue, but without legitimate feed back you can go tell your pals you kicked my ass in a verbal joust, I care less.
You say that like being “biased” against war crimes and human rights violations are a bad thing. Has it occurred to you there are more reports about Israel because there are more violations to report on?
What appears to be happening is the the Little Green Football type blogs throw around the inuendo/dirt and then CAMERA and this NGO Monitor frost the cake and it looks as if they are not just going after Marc but the whole Mideast group…. so the attack against more than Mr. Goldstone begins. It is Rachel and Charles Freeman and who knows how many others over the years who have been smeared, lied about and destroyed by these virulent attacks. It is the American version of the gunshot holes in Palestinian homes….and then when the Palestinians leave, the IDF can say the homes were vacant…..Here ,Mr. Witty can say it is because people support Israel…..For some, it is fear of job loss, financial support loss etc. It is unadulterated intimidation and gang attack – teaching a lesson that others will learn from and they will stay away from the Israel issue.
Michael, I have respect for the Goldstone report, Amnesty, and Human Rights Watch. I personally saw Tom Malinkowski of HRW report on Darfur and the need for Darfur atrocities to go before the International Criminal Court and watched a House comittee move in that direction. He was impressive and deserving of respect. I read HRW’s reports several of which have been critical of Israel. One wars “Razing Rafah” and it is clear that long before the Goldstone report was commissioned the IDF was doing its best to destroy Palestinian will. “Promoting Impunity” discussed and documented the IDF’s failure to investigate itself. I would suggest that Shaden Abu Hijleh’s family, Tom Hurndall’s family, James Miller’s family, Rachel Corrie’s family and on and on and on would agree that Israel cannot do a credible investigation when the IDF is involved. No credible investigations and no justice – promoting impunity- that is the tragedy of Israel – not simple people like me.
Cheryl,
Whatever good HRW and Amnesty do in the Muslim Jewish conflict is tarnished by their inclination to influence a political resolution that suits their goals. Do you understand what I am saying? They use their reports as weapons instead of a tool to assist mankind. They have lofty ideals, but those ideals are cast aside because of the willful imposition by the leadership of the organizations. It is a mockery.
You malign the Israeli system, but fail to keep context. In your eyes Israel is a villain, but the real villains are standing behind you urging you to do their bidding. Like it or not you have been duped into dwelling on a version of history that perpetuates the politics of victimization. The poor, poor Arab can do no wrong even when they laugh at your reports, your sensibilities, your international laws, and your willingness to be a tool for evil. Disempowering the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians will not garner them and, for that matter you, any new found respect. On the contrary, it does nothing more than perpetuate a culture dependent upon the evil white Zionist for its very survival.
People like Micheal and the Zionist contingency think they are going to shut down key human rights organizations by frothing at the mouth and lying through their teeth. Apparently, by you’re posting you do not know dick squat about objective anything you ideological buffoon.
The only thing they know is this sanction card, not giving money or trying to dissuade others like a proverbial lynch mob with just as much credibility. I recommend full bore BDS to shut down this bestial crowd, world wide in scope. Till they are reduced to a quivering mass just like Apartheid South Africa and its racist junta. No more impunity, price to pay, in your collective ugly faces.
The organizations are not going to be shut down by the actions of others, they are going to be shut down from malfeasance and a lack of objectivity. Nobody but the haters are going to give them the time of day, the rest of us ignore them and shake our heads.
What is a “dick squat” btw, is that some sort of gay exercise you and your anarchist buddies do to each when you are not proving how ignorant your views are on hate sites like Mondoweiss, becoming human shields to help terrorists destroy the world, and preaching genocide against Israeli Jews?
Oh, look. He’s a racist and a homophobe. Next he’ll be demanding to see your birth certificate.
Actually HRW and Amnesty are excedingly honest, and if they have any bias, it’s pro-Israel. HRW especially – for example in the attack on Lebanon in 2006 they interviewed relatives of every single Israeli fatality. They only interviewed a small minority of the relatives of Lebanese fatalities.
It’s pretty clear that the Israeli army targets civilians, and the Israeli government makes considerable effort to get rid of the non-Jewish Palestinian Arabs from territory it claims. Nor do I understand why you believe its acceptable to “accidentally” kill civilians, in this case the indigenous people, in the course of a war in which the goal is take their land and territory away, expel them and deny them the right to live in their ancestral homeland.
The sarcasm is a bit overdone.
I have respect for Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, the Goldstone Report.
They provide information to those that desire to conduct their affairs by international standards of human rights, even if they are opinions and not authority.
I expect that Hamas and Hezbollah ignored the reports, even as they were condemned in them. I doubt that they even undertook ANY ethical or operational review (through the lens of international law). They certainly didn’t issue a statement of denial even, indicating that they likely didn’t even read it as it applied to them.
I’m certain that Israelis HAVE read the report, and Americans HAVE read the report, and insisted that the questions be satisfactorily addressed, even if not sufficiently.
“…even if they are opinions and not authority.”
Witty, reports and investigations are not opinions. That’s what we here in the real world like to call, “factual information.”
Why am I yet again reminded of Wikipedia’s rather apt entry on Holocaust denial?
“Evidence that conflicts with that premise is routinely minimized, misrepresented, or ignored.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
The same part drew my attention. Even if he dresses himself up in the most polite manner his bias shows, or is it because he dresses himself up his crystal ball goes blind?
…even if they are opinions and not authority.
…even as they were condemned in them.
We just learned that Hamas and Hezbollah can’t and don’t read what others write about them. Does this anybody actually believe.
Only Israelis and American can read.
Why am I not surprised that you rely on evidence and statements that can be edited by anyone without the least concern of accuracy. I suggest you are reading and accepting only what suits your cause. With your statement you make it clear that the Holocaust is something you wish to minimize, misrepresent, or ignore yourself.
With your statement you make it clear that the Holocaust is something you wish to minimize, misrepresent, or ignore yourself.
Look, this has been tried before and it has been done more straightforward than you do it here. Why should I want to minimize, misrepresent or ignore it? But interesting, always the same kind of tricks.
A class mate for whom I have the highest respect worked for Amnesty, I guess sometimes in the mid-70s to early 80s. He criticized them too.
The problem is your framing, Sir. And terms like: Arabs calling themselves Palestinians another biased expert?
LeaNder,
“The problem is your framing, Sir. And terms like: Arabs calling themselves Palestinians another biased expert? ”
It is not accurate to call the Arabs Palestinians. I am only interested in accuracy, my bias is towards honesty, because if we can’t be honest first we will not have justice or peace. That starts in recognizing basic truths such as there has never been a Palestine, there were Arabs holding a minuscule amount of private property in a territory that was mislabeled Palestine by an Englishman, nothing more. There is also no such thing as a right of return. And the refugees are only refugees under a unique definition to the exclusion of any number of deserving peoples that do not kill to affect change. We can go on and on. Unfortunately if you feel I have framed it wrong, I can only blame myself for being an inferior writer, because I have framed it exactly the way it is and little else. I appreciate your civil tone, and you will receive the same from me until I see evidence that you ignore relevant questions that we both know the answer of will force a rethinking of the way you view things. I place myself under the same restrictions, that is why I pride myself on being able to answer any question. I am firm in my resolve, have studied the situation from all angles, and am confident that morality and justice is on my side.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re comparing Witty to Holocaust deniers, not expressing sympathy for Holocaust denial? Is that right? Because the lunatic thinks you are sympathetic to Holocaust denial and if that were true, then for once I’d have to side with the lunatic–Holocaust denial is contemptible. But I don’t think that’s what you meant.
As for Witty’s remark, I’d just point out that far from taking human rights reports to heart, Israel tries to discredit them. Right now they’re calling Goldstone an anti-semite. In Witty’s parallel universe they sit around earnestly reading the HRW and Amnesty International reports with furrowed brows, wondering how they can defend themselves from the hordes of evil terrorists without accidentally hurting an innocent puppy or killing a butterfly.
Of course they are opinions.
When I issue an audit report, it is an opinion. “In our opinion, the financial statements of x present fairly….”
Oh, to be clear, when I referred to “the lunatic” I didn’t mean Richard. When I criticize Richard I do it by name.
Donald.
I must have hit the wrong “reply” button. I have interacted with Mr Witty on another site far more than with any of my new friends here. Mr Witty deserves criticism, but I have never heard anything of him that leads me to believe that he is not at the minimum genuinely concerned about human rights…he just needs to understand the Ottoman Land laws to come to grips with exactly who lost what when the refugees were formed, and that maybe, just maybe, some faceless loser on the Internet might know a thing or two that he doesn’t on those same laws, (though I do have a face on Space Book now, so I am not faceless any more, just a loser)
As far as your remarks about Israel discrediting reports, that is a mischaracterization of what is happening. Israel, I think, has accepted that no matter what it does the world will complain. No standard of conduct will ever be high enough. Nothing Israel can do short of removing all restrictions for Arabs to kill Jews will make the world happy. What army, let alone what Arab army, let alone what illegal militia, let alone what Islamic terrorist group phones an entire neighborhood before it goes to war with the military infrastructure illegally stored in that neighborhood, drops leaflets days in advance, calls off inbound guided bombs when the target goes into a house, risks the lives of its own innocent soldiers to protect the lives of the enemy, or coordinates humanitarian and medical relief with the people they are accused of committing war crimes against? This must be the worst case of ineptitude in history. Either Israel is an overbearing juggernaut able to smash Arab towns with a single fart or it is an easy target for critics that do not have human rights in mind when fabricating endless reports. It makes little sense and that is precisely why people are turning on the NGOs for their political machinations.
Donald: you read it right. I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for Holocaust deniers and people who borrow their tactics. Which is why I go after Witty with, admittedly, aggression.
Richard: …and that’s why you are in finance, Witty, and not a professional in a field of science or medicine. People don’t pay you to be honest, they pay you to spot obvious errors and give out triple-A ratings and whatnot. Bet you were ever so helpful in the years leading up to the recent financial meltdown, right?
LeFavour: Every map before 1948 calls it Palestine. Every international resolution and relevant treaty refers to both Israel and Palestine and recognizes them as distinct sovereign entities. Well over a hundred countries recognize Palestine as a nation, including Russia and China, while our European friends on the Security Council at least extend specific diplomatic recognition. Congratulations! You have something in common with David Duke. You’re both inveterate deniers and liars.
Can you link me to a web site with a scan of an authentic map of pre-Mandate Palestine? You said “all of them” prior to 1948 had Palestine, which is really a mute point since there is not a speck of evidence that remotely resembles an Arab wanting to be known as a Palestinian before Jews arrived. I have a map from 1864 and Palestine is not there. Judea and Samaria are though, oddly enough, in light of the ethnic cleansing term (west bank) bandied about by these same documents I am not in favor of appeasing bigotry, racism, or other social ills by giving legitimacy to them, other people’s tolerance for those social evils are not as rigorous as mine I guess.
Russia and China recognize the “state” of Palestine? I was not aware that they recognized a country of Palestine. I haven’t checked the news papers yet though. What are Palestine’s borders according to Russia and China, and do you suppose any amount of external politics had a hand in elevating the enemy of our friend to that of a state, if it is even true? I have yet to see the proof of that. After all, Afif Safia billed himself as the Palestinian Ambassador while he was here in America on a whirl wind propaganda tour. No telling how many Arab children starved to death while he was jet setting around the world with his pampered white wife.
A hundred of the worst despots and oil desperate whores recognize a fictitious country of Palestine, not as a political weapon against Israel, nope, no sir, move along, nothing to see, and you label me as having something in common with David Duke?
“Every international resolution and relevant treaty refers to both Israel and Palestine and recognizes them as distinct sovereign entities.”
UN Resolution 242 does not make any mention of so called Palestinians, because they were not a people yet. UN 242 concerned Jordan, Egypt, and Israel. Are you sure you know the subject as well as you insinuate? David Duke is easily proven wrong too, congratulations you have something in common.
Chaos,
I meant to ask what do the Russians do on Palestine’s Independence Day? Or do they just stand around looking confused?
I didn’t find it on this list of country Independence Days, probably a Jew made up the list for hasbara purposes, huh?
link to geography.about.com
“Better be careful twit you do not know who you are addressing.” As usual you cannot even begin to address my post, that is because it is absolutely true. You’re pathetic, and if I am a baby seal you are barely an amoeba…lol You do not even know what verbal warfare is, you bring a flimsy stick to a gunfight, idiot. I eat pretentious scum like you for breakfast, however you are not even a worthy meal. You are simply laughable
Wow, your verbal assault has left me shell shocked, you’re so funny. I especially like the imagery you created of my “s cum” in your mouth for breakfast. Nice one, fag. I wear a ring to keep homos like you off of me, but if you have a skin head to go with the Totenkomf tattoo I wouldn’t mind scratching my balls on the stubble after you finish eating me. Since you are ashamed to show us your face and name, I picture you as a shorter version of Norman Finkelstein, mini me v.
“Better be careful twit you do not know who you are addressing.”
I can’t help but address this portion of your awe inspiring prose. You are correct, I do not know who I am addressing, and you in your cowardice want it to remain that way. Do you suppose I will be intimidated into moderating my words with an alphabet letter? Oh the fucking mystery. Why keep me in the dark, tough guy?
Chaos,
You don’t know of auditors or accountants. (I’m unemployed now anyway for your reference. Too liberal partially.)
In science, unless scientists can illustrate a definitive causal relationship (Newtonian), they also issue opinions. For example, the Copernican theory is a theory, more of an explanation. It is not perse any more true than the Ptolemaic, but it is more elegant (simple) and reliable.
A scientific opinion, like an auditor’s opinion (done to the level of passing some peer review), is based on evidence and skilled judgement.
…And yet, you’re unemployed now. Fancy that.
LeFavour is basically the equivalent of a Holocaust denier. Seriously, look at this — even Israel’s own foreign ministry calls it Palestine.
link to mfa.gov.il
But like most right wing kooks, actual truth doesn’t factor into his rationale.
And for the record, Witty? The Copernican theory was faulty because Copernicus was unwilling to let go of the prevailing (and false) assumption of the era that heavenly bodies must move in perfect circles. Copernicus was still tinkering with his model when the Catholic church coerced him (essentially at the point of a sword) to renounce his theory. He had to introduce epicycles — the idea that heavenly bodies travel on circular paths whose origin also moves on a circular paths — the try to force his theory to fit the observational data.
It wasn’t until Johannes Kepler — who was willing to drop prevailing assumptions and calculate “imperfect” elliptical orbits — that we had a theory that works. Basically, the theory we have today about orbital motion. And in order to do that, he needed to have the precise observational data recorded by his mentor, Tycho Brahe, in order to generate an accurate, verifiable model to prove his theory. Brahe was of the same rigid ideology and refused to share his research with Kepler for that purpose. Kepler had to literally steal that data, after Brahe’s death, in order to prove that theory.
Kepler’s work laid the foundation for Newton’s theory of gravitation. Newton was the scientist who introduced the “why” — the force of gravity — into the “how” that Kepler’s model showed. And that was only made possible because they both based their theories on facts rather than proceeding from the natural, prevailing bias of the day.
That you should bring up Copernicus as your champion is decidedly ironic, considering.
Also? Don’t try to out-physic a former physics student.
Another victim? Maybe if you spent more time checking the FASB’s and less posting hasbara here, your services would be in demand.
Chaos, Newton’s realization that if you make an apple bigger and higher – say all the way to the moon – that it is still pulled by the same gravitational force is not deduced from facts. It’s an idea. Then you go back to the data and see if you can make the idea work. looking at the data doesn’t give you the idea. Being an honorary member of the pedant’s society I think I’m entitled to say that.
So Chaos, you do acknowledge the relative elegance of the Copernican theory over the Ptolemaic (that the earth is the nucleus).
It was descriptive of the role of theory, of opinion, as a descriptor.
It took Newton to articulate the relationship of gravitational forces to fully explain planetary motion, and even that has been modified slightly by Einsteinian theories and confirmations.
You do get that any collection of evidence is limited and therefore biased. It is information, NOT authority.
A few Israelis and Americans have heard of the report; some have even read a summary of it; most in the USA have not heard of it thanks to our MSM. Nobody is willing to address it that has any access to the USA MSM.
Yes,
You live on a different planet. There have been four articles and op-ed’s in the New York Times on the report.
If you want to blame the passive populace, go ahead, “Citizen”.
LeaNder,
“Look, this has been tried before and it has been done more straightforward than you do it here. Why should I want to minimize, misrepresent or ignore it? But interesting, always the same kind of tricks.”
I was not addressing you. Before you accuse me of tricks, understand why I made the comment to the poster calling himself Chaos4700. I have no reason at this point to believe you wish to minimize the Holocaust, but if someone points to Wikipedia as a source, and then despairs that evidence that conflicts with Holocaust denial is “routinely minimized, misrepresented, or ignored,” is obviously someone that would rather see Holocaust denial brought into the main stream.
Holocaust denial is adequately brought into the mainstream by those who hide behind it as a cloak for atrocities. Those who use it as a proverbial Holocaust hegemony to smother the moral voice of others who are suffering. By those who claim so many survivors that we should have about 2 billion by 2015. From those build monuments to it while the few survivors eat dog food while they try to pay for their drugs – while they have taken in billions to further more atrocities on another population in the name of such. In case you are wondering who I am talking about let me fully reveal that it is the Zionist Israelis who instead of using the “never again” in the universal way they should, use the never again by repeating such atrocities against another people while letting off damn sirens and stopping traffic in a cheapened memorial.
“Let me fully reveal”? Bwah ha haha, please don’t reveal any more, your Totenkopf tattoo is showing now. I never had any doubts about you, punk, just the cowardly pervert who hides behind a ridiculous alphabet letter and expects to be taken for anything more than a fucking retard. My curiosity drove me to look at your website today…I haven’t seen you, but I have a hunch you are a pussy. Your site looks like a combination of both comic-book occultism and Orwellian double cross. It is an outhouse for cranks with a serpentine tapestry that has no bearing whatever on reality. To be sure, so complete a self-delusion is worthy of study, but since I am unable to lie in wait for you, rip your face off, and shove it up your smug ass, I’ll have to content myself with a little asymmetrical verbal warfare. Unfortunately I take no pleasure in clubbing the intellectual equivalence of a baby seal.
While you’re surfing Wikipedia, you might want to read up on the entry for “logic.” Trust me on this bucko.
Looking at you’re site it is not even worth commenting on LeFavour, deserving of complete dismissal out of hand. Better be careful twit you do not know who you are addressing. As usual you cannot even begin to address my post, that is because it is absolutely true. You’re pathetic, and if I am a baby seal you are barely an amoeba…lol You do not even know what verbal warfare is, you bring a flimsy stick to a gunfight, idiot. I eat pretentious scum like you for breakfast, however you are not even a worthy meal. You are simply laughable
Newton wasn’t sitting around saying, “Gee, I have this neat theory of this magical force called gravity; now, how can I see where it fits into reality!” Newton was specifically coming up with a theory to explain why planets moved along elliptical paths. He was looking at factual information and building his theory on that.
Incidentally, Newton’s theory of gravitation also opened the door to his development of calculus, which has unlocked a hell of a lot of doors in other areas of science and technology. (I’m not going to get into a debate about whether he “invented” it and the name of the other person who also worked on calculus equations but didn’t get much recognition because Newton published first, escapes me).
Scientific theories aren’t wild guesses cut out of whole cloth. They’re not subjective interpretations. They’re not opinions, the way “this room would look prettier if it were painted red,” is an opinion. A theory supposes itself to be a fact and invites the scientific mind to compare it with verified factual evidence to determine if that evidence either supports or rejects the theory.
The notion that Witty is going to reduce information gathered by the UN and by human rights organizations to “opinions” is degrading and dishonest.
Its exactly what it is. Information.
You degrade the term opinion by presuming that I take it lightly. I explained to you that I regard an informed opinion highly.
And, you degrade the judicial process by conflating an opinion to a judgement, subject to appeal.
I have no idea if members of Hamas or Hezbollah read the reports. I am confident that U.S. State Department officials have and that Israeli officials have read the toreport. Here is where we differ. The Israelis have not satifactorily addressed the concerns. Again, ask anyone of the above families and their response will be that the Israelis did not address why they have not done credible investigations. In addition, the Goldstone report asks for INVESTIGATION. I would suggest that none of the families whose loved ones were included in “Promoting Impunity” believe that Israel is capable of looking credibly at IDF atrocities. Killing nonviolent activists/reporters are atrocities. The Israeli response and the U.S response is neither satisfactory or sufficient. In Gaza and the West Bank Israel continues to act with impunity the U.S. continues to provide the weapons and funding for this to continure. Nice words that lead to the the same result – no justice- are neither satisfactory or sufficient from either state actor.
I am absolutely sure, Cheryl, that Hamas reads this report. I would actually bet a rather big sum on that. Not necessarily the lower cadres but the upper layers, there is absolutely no doubt.
You stepped right into Richard’s trap. Notice that he suggests they read only the part that concern Israel.
He must know. He is one of the experts on the “Arab mind”.
Address the content, LeaNder.
Do you believe that Hamas is considering the report seriously? Their actions were strongly condemned in the report. To what extent do you believe they adopt international law as their standard, or moral concerns about the conditions of civilians?
Seriously.
“Address the content, LeaNder.
Do you believe that Hamas is considering the report seriously? Their actions were strongly condemned in the report. To what extent do you believe they adopt international law as their standard, or moral concerns about the conditions of civilians?
Seriously.”
Right back at you, Richard. Do you seriously think the Israelis do what you mention here? Why do they put so much energy into attacks on such reports, rather than taking them to heart and changing their tactics, their strategy (and hell, their whole outlook on the problem)?
As for Hamas, I’d be surprised if they have very much concern about human rights–I don’t think the Israelis do and I don’t think American government officials always do either, under much less stringent conditions. I don’t think the Hamas leaders show any signs of being morally superior beings on a par with the Israeli government that exists in your imagination.
It is cute, though, seeing you demand that someone address content.
“Do you believe that Hamas is considering the report seriously?”
I’m sorry, Richard, I’m having trouble reading the rest of your comment, it seems to be all muddied up by your obvious bigotry. Could you possibly rephrase that in a way that doesn’t imply that Palestinians are inherently untrustworthy?
Donald,
You haven’t read my comments (surprisingly?)
I stated that I thought that Israel should regard the Goldstone report seriously, and make necessary reforms, so that it returns to the status of effective, legal, and disciplined military, in STARK contrast to Hamas.
I have read your comments–you recommend Israel read the report, improve their conduct, etc… I recommend the same to Hamas. I don’t expect either to do so seriously. There is some talk at the Magnes Zionist that Israel might do some more investigation that will amount to a whitewash.
The sharp contrast you fondly imagine with Hamas exists only in your imagination.
I have respect for Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, the Goldstone Report.
They provide information to those that desire to conduct their affairs by international standards of human rights … I guess this means that Israel and the United States will, from this point forward, “conduct their affairs by international standards of human rights”. Cool.
We can hope and urge that.
I personally believe that that makes Israel MUCH stronger relative to Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran, if they did so.
Really? And how many hospitals has Hamas leveled? Any UNWRA warehouses set aflame by them? Remind me again how often Hezbollah has bombarded the American International School in Israel.
Hamas has leveled only hotels, cafes, school buses, civilian buses, civilian bus stations, and in Sderot hit schools and clinics.
They kill randomly, or when they don’t it is their failure.
Do you SUPPORT Hamas?
I support Israel, and urge it to be accountable so that it is entirely credible, rather than just mostly.
“I support Israel, and urge it to be accountable so that it is entirely credible, rather than just mostly.”
If you think Israel is “mostly credibible now, it goes to your credibility.
That’s the difference between me and you Richard. You immediately leap to the false dichotomy that I must either blindingly support Israel and condemn Hamas, or I must blindingly support Hamas and condemn Israel.
You openly support Israel. That means you openly support the fact that they destroyed the UNWRA warehouse (yes, fact.) You also support their action against such threats as the American International School in Gaza and several UNWRA facilities.
Basically, you support war crimes, Richard. You’re a hypocrite.
No one here supports Hamas. We support the Palestinians. You support a STATE – a political entity, the ‘Jewish State’.
You’re the one who reflexively whitewashes Israel’s crimes while simultaneously framing any dissent as ‘unhelpful’.
I agree that one reason churches are “timid” is because leaders have to bring members along and that takes much grassroot effort – especially when mainstream churches are struggling with membership/relevancy efforts. Also, mainstream churches are bureaucratic and it takes time to move issues from local churches to general conferences or vice versa.
In addition, many plain folks for whom this is not the main issue in their lives do not feel up to the type of discussion that people such as Michael wish to engage in. I remember being at a Sabeel conference where “church people” thanked me for carrying the discussion with a presenter who wanted to provide us with Israeli “context”. Simply stated, the members of the group did not feel up to carrying on the discussion with someone intent on talking circles around them.
Third, is the intimidation factor – the fear of job loss, humiliation etc. when publicly taken on by people who have made it their work to try and stop discussion of this issue in the American mainstream – and they resort to smearing, trying to trip up people who are not professional writers….intimidating.
Having said all of this I have stood with nuns at the Caterpillar protests who are not intimidated and carry much knowledge. I have attended Sabeel conferences where the likes of Desmond Tutu is participating in discussion of the Palestinian apartheid situation and I have watched mainstream church members work diigently and often to bring this issue to the forefront of discussion.
Finally, Michael this is the context I know: Shaden Abu Hijleh every Friday carried flowers with a group of women to lay at the wheels of the IDF military equipment. Shaden spoke out and was a leader in nonviolent resistence in Nablus. Your IDF pulled up in front of her house, sat there unusually for awhile and then shot thirteen bullets at this fifty some year old woman and shot her through the head. She was a nonviolent activist, articulate, learned and refused to sit quietly in the face of occupation. She was a leader and they killed her. The IDF could not do a credible investigation into her death and my President insisted on a credible investigation and then after much flutter of activity simply did nothing when there was no investigation……That is the context I know. Tom Hurndall, unarmed, non violent, photographer shot in the head and then the flutter of Israeli lies ……same story, minor changes such as the family investigating themselves and the British placing pressure and the IDF changing stories.
Michael, years ago I had a photographer tell me he had been shot at in the occupied territories by the IDF and had been hit by rubber bullets. Do you know what he told me?
He said, “Everybody knows what is happening in the Occupied Territories.”
I wonder if it is you that has duped yourself?
Cheryl, well of course they either imprison, exile, or assassinate almost any credible person. It follows suit that all they do is to try to character assassinate and intimidate any supporters of the Palestinian – even objective reports. This is their modus operandi, they do it both physically where they can and verbally where they cannot.
However, the caustic prattling of Micheal is easy to do, he has never been to a single damn region he speaks about. Like the right wing version of the Christian Fundamentalists, etc. He has the gall to enter this site, where many have relatives that have been the victims of the Holocaust and say that they know nothing no care about the tragedy. What he does not realize is that because we understand the full import of what took place in those infamous years that we can recognize the ramp up of a repeat!
He is part of the genocide as usual crew, an old hackneyed insignificant apologist who wants us to bring the repeat of the extermination of an indigenous people, who even denies that cause (see the archives) resistance on the North American continent of the indigenous into the same bullshit mire that the Zionists hawk (racism, hatred, religion, etc.). He should be put in a zoo (non-petting) where we can bring our children to gawk at, because his schtick is about as relevant as the screams of primates.
Cheryl,
I can accept your story right up until you added a little extra embellishment for drama, “Your IDF pulled up in front of her house, sat there unusually for awhile and then shot thirteen bullets at this fifty some year old woman and shot her through the head” The way you narrate it, it seems they “aim” at her head, when in fact all the evidence points to them shooting through the walls. A rookie cop was showing his new 9mm to a friend and shot a lady in the chest when it went off. The lady was sitting down stairs watching tv in his apartment. It sort of changes the nuance to say some kind words about the lady and then say the cop shot her in the head doesn’t it? I am not saying it was an accident either, but if this is the worst case of Israeli cruelty to trump your natural aversion to supporting a people that do not investigate or even question those that kill Jews, no, let me rephrase…they immortalize Jews killers in song, print, and naming public places then there is little I can say. Obviously a person that can ignore, or look the other way, or cover her ears to real murderers like the two Arabs that walked up to a stranded car and shot a pregnant mother in the womb then executed her four small children with “aimed” bullets to the back of the head, on my eyes has an issue with morality. Knowing what you know about the people you support, you have the audacity to attend a Caterpillar demonstration and obnoxious Sabeel propaganda events, but you can’t bring yourself to light a candle for Gilad Shalit, is that it?
I use a neutral scale, since I am neither Jewish or Muslim. On this scale I place every bit of information I have learned. Every death I can examine I will. Every action I can account for I will. But it seems to me you have no scale. Taken in context, there is no event that compares to the many suicide bombings the Arabs have wrought on the Jews.
…Did you just make an excuses for a cop shooting at unarmed civilians totally unprovoked?
Apparently Micheal the imbecile has not see the new IOF (I do not call it the IDF) recreational shirts – the ones with rifle scopes on pregnant Palestinian women with the title beneath “terrorist” – which sell so well. Nor does he ask the question, why one of Israel’s most celebrated poets and scholars would write this –
Culture
by Aharon Shabtai
“The mark of Cain won’t sprout
from a soldier who shoots
at the head of a child
on a knoll by the fence
around a refugee camp –
for beneath his helmet,
conceptually speaking,
his head is made of cardboard.
On the other hand,
the officer has read The Rebel;
his head is enlightened,
and so he does not believe
in the mark of Cain.
He’s spent time in museums,
and when he aims
his rifle at a boy
as an ambassador of Culture,
he updates and recycles
Goya’s etchings
and Guernica.”
Aharon Shabtai, born in 1939 in Tel Aviv, is one of the most acclaimed Israeli poets and the foremost Hebrew translator of Greek drama. This poem was published in his book J’Accuse (Trans., Peter Cole, New Directions Publishing, 2003) on p. 14. Shabtai refused to participate in the Fifth International Poetry Festival in Jerusalem in 2006, living by his conviction that “even poets were not allowed in the past, and not in the present, to ignore persecutions and discrimination’s on a racial or national basis,” and will be boycotting the Turin Book Fair (8-12 May 2008) and the Salon du Livre de Paris (14-18 March 2008) where Israel will be the “guest of honor.”
Now, if these bastards would stoop so low as to target children (the number one reason for weapon death among Palestinian children is bullet wounds to the head, administered by the IOF). What would stop them from assassinating an ardent, peaceful and intelligent supporter of the Palestinian people?
Shaden Abu Hijleh
She was sitting outside you asshole.
As an aside, the testimony of the assassins were that they stood outside the car and “shot in the air.” Right, shot in the air and fourteen bullets just happened to congregate in a small radius around a woman sitting outside of her house.
There is a sick joke told in Israel (which I am familiar with, unlike others who just spout off at the mouth with no knowledge). The joke is that Palestinians must fly, because so many soldiers say they shoot in the air during the time that so many Palestinians are killed and wounded – they must fly.
You are a fucking tool. If this wasn’t such fun hit and run on a Nazi I wouldn’t bother…
“Israeli soldiers deliberately shot her without provocation while she was embroidering inside our family home in the West Bank City of Nablus.”
I’m an asshole? According to the web link you present as evidenceshe was sitting INSIDE just as I correctly related earlier. The speculation that they killed her deliberately is just that, speculation.
Why the sudden interest in killing? I have mentioned many individual cases of killing….this one was witnessed by a CNN crew. Something tells me they will never reveal any video, because that would not sit well with the version of the conflict they are trying to push.
link to rasmusen.org
“One by one, each had been shot at point-blank range”. The pregnant woman was shot. The 11-year-old was shot in the head, multiple times. The 9-year-old was shot in the head, multiple times. The 7-year-old was shot in the head, multiple times. The 2-year- old was shot in the head, multiple times.
Was this just the work of a single deranged Palestinian, quickly repudiated and punished by other Palestinians? No. It was official policy, we can tell from the reaction of the Palestinian Authority. ”
What they did not report, according to the forensics report, is that the woman had been shot three times in the abdomen. At 8 months of pregnancy the child inside was able to hear and react to sound, your friends made sure he never got a chance to live though and you wonder why I am here to oppose evil racist shits like you, huh?
Listen you demented jerk, she was lying on the steps OUTSIDE the house. You know, why even discuss anything with you, listen to the testimony, it is just like other stupid statements you make –
“I use a neutral scale, since I am neither Jewish or Muslim.” This is not a “Jewish/Muslim” issue you turd, the Christian Palestinians are some of the most vocal and active in the resistance to the occupation. Second, it is NOT a “religious issue,” how many times do you have to be told this? However, you want to make this a religious issue – it is not.
“Taken in context, there is no event that compares to the many suicide bombings the Arabs have wrought on the Jews. ”
Well than, you cannot even count jerk, Not only do you have dyslexia you have discalculia! Here, let me assist you as to why you think like you do, and what is given to you in reports stateside as opposed to what really happens, but you will probably not even listen to it – that is because you’re mind is made up, you do not want to be confused with the facts. Indeed, you willfully twist the facts, when I am done with you you can scurry back to the CAMERA site, or get some other lying sack of shit from Dershowitz or Pipes, or some other equally spurious source – because you are “neutral (you are even twisted in your statement about neutrality, which has NOTHING to do with reality),” my ass –
OFF THE CHARTS
“Aside from Sisu and the best cold weather troops of WWII, I just can’t think of much to associate Finland with, no product comes to mind”
Michael, I’m surprised you’ve heard of the word sisu and not of the company Nokia! Actually Finland produces Icebreakers, loads of industrial equipment for the pulp and paper industry, pulp and paper, forestry products, heavy machines for forestry work, Sisu heavy trucks, ships (think cruise ships), Finlandia vodka, pharmaceuticals/medical research (Orion and other companies). SAAB also has a factory or two in Finland.
Your estimation of Finnish industry is about as accurate as your view of the Middle East.
I have heard of Nokia, but did not know it was Finnish. The rest of what you mentioned is not really part of the American popular lexicon. How does me not knowing what 999 of the next 1000 people I randomly survey know about Finland have anything to do with my knowledge of the ME, beyond as a straw man?
How do we know you do not know jack shit about the ME? Because you keep posting (lol), what you say is the chief evidence against you. There are other hints, like the posts on your site, and the demented links – you are actually worse than the run-of-the-mill Zionist enthusiast, somewhere near the bottom of the barrel. You do not read, you do not listen, and you are factually and therefore your foundation is bankrupt, everything goes downhill from there.
The point is that you bash some Arab countries for only producing oil. My understaning is that many of the oil producing economies in the ME are diversifying, but to bash them for raking in massive wealth and using their resources to their own benefit makes no sense.
Also, Finland is a much nicer country than Israel is, and most of Finland’s accomplishments have come under adversity, at no other group’s expense and without outside help, let alone massive support from a super-power.
Maybe the Muslim world isn’t such a great place (I wouldn’t want to live in a Muslim country) but Israel isn’t anything special, either.
Don’t ever say I never did anything for you Micheal, but really, any conversation from this point forward is really useless with you.
He’s a reich-wing troll. What more is there to know about Michael?
Correction: In addition, Amnesty has just issued an apology in their newsletter for upsetting some with their take on the Gaza incursion, almost begging for continued support)
My mistake. It was not Amnesty International but Doctors Without Borders in the summer 2009 issue of Alert. The editor states, ” A number of our supporters were upset by the article, “Gaza: A Devastating Disregard for Civilians,” ….We recognize the legitimacy of the concerns expressed that the Alert article was too one-sided in its presentation of the Gaza conflict. The article, as it was written, did not sufficiently contextualize the Israeli incursion into Gaza as a response to the longstanding and indiscriminate rocket attack….
My point was and is that if organizations who are always in conflict zones have to backtrack and do contextualize ( but did not contextualize one more step backward to disccuss who broke the ceasefire and when this Gaza invasion was actually planned ), this supports my contention that Church people might tread timidly in this minefield. I continue to wonder how Human Rights Watch’s Mideast Division will weather the current attack on them. PEP or PEI – is there any other country in the world that has such a ready fighting squad….ready to squabble when their protectorate is held up to the light. I think it is understandable why the church people tread timidly. Doctors Without Borders have learned their lesson and now Human Rights Watch gets the joy.
Micheal LaFavour couldn’t sell this shit over at Salon at Greenwald’s blog. He was dismissed as an ass there, too. Gosh, it seems to happen to him everywhere! How could everyone except him be so wrong?