Does anyone else get to participate in this conversation? I guess not. From the JTA:
A top White House official told Jewish organizational leaders in an off-the-record phone call Wednesday that the U.S. strategy was to "quickly" bring the report — commissioned by the U.N. Human Rights Council and carried out by former South African Judge Richard Goldstone — to its "natural conclusion" within the Human Rights Council and not to allow it to go further, Jewish participants in the call told JTA.
Piece speaks of "difficulties" arising from the report.
This really is what Lincoln meant when he spoke of a "conspiracy" between the slave powers and the northern Democratic and Whig Parties and the Buchanan administration and Chief Justice Roger Taney back in 1858. He said there was an evil, slavery, that was gaining the protection of all sorts of political powers through tacit means and sometimes through deals and hugger-mugger. It’s why he helped start the Republican Party. Both our parties today are corrupted by support for extreme Israeli actions in that region that are destroying our brand across the Middle East. And when phone calls like this happen, you gotta wonder who’s got a stranglehold here.
Just in case anyone doubted that US foreign policy is in thrall to Israel.
Breaking development: link to jta.org
The White House says an official “misspoke” when he said the Obama administration would not allow the Goldstone report recommendations on Israel’s conduct in the Gaza war to reach the International Criminal Court.
A top White House official told Jewish organizational leaders in an off-the-record phone call Wednesday that the U.S. strategy was to “quickly” bring the report — commissioned by the U.N. Human Rights Council and carried out by former South African Judge Richard Goldstone — to its “natural conclusion” within the Human Rights Council and not to allow it to go further, Jewish participants in the call told JTA.
Tommy Vietor, a White House spokesman, called JTA later to say the official “misspoke” and that administration policy on the Goldstone report remains as articulated last week by Susan Rice, the U.N. ambassador.
Not anyone doubts, just the masses of sheeple making up most of the USA population. They don’t know any better, and our MSM makes sure that is so.
And i thought Bush had already left the White House…Oh well, Israel will now have a carte blanche for its next genocide in the mid-east. This is a sign that the US will continue to turn a blind eye to whatever massacres Israel commits.
Isn’t it incredble how 6 Mill people in a nation of over 300 mill can legitimize murder, this is true democracy. choke
Why is this lie that the mandate ignored Hamas’ role in prompting the war through its rocket fire into Israel. continually repeated. The Goldstone report did no such thing. It noted the rocket fire and condemned it. Yet the lie appears again and again in every discussion of the report.
Note that the White House also put down the Palestinians for moving to bring Israel to the International Criminal Court. So Palestine is now supposed to support Israeli war crimes against its own people as well as come to peace talks while Israel is still stealing its territory?
I’m going to go kick the cat or something, this pisses me off too much.
As far as I can tell, the complaint stems from the original January mandate which was to investigate only Israel’s actions. Before accepting the assignment in April, Goldstone insisted that the mandate be changed to include all human rights violations by anybody, and the UN Human Rights Council Prez agreed. And, as you note, that is what Goldstone and co. did. Early in the report, he recites the even-handed mandate. Now, some people simply ignore the fact that the mandate was changed, and others point out that the mandate could not legally be changed without a Security Council resolution. Regardless of whether this is true, and I doubt it, the fact is that the Mission did investigate both sides, and made findings against both sides. If the case does go to the ICC, it’s on both sides. So the issue of the original mandate, if there ever was one, is completely moot. Nevertheless, when you’re grasping at straws, this straw is available, especially to fool those who wish to be fooled. So there’s no reason not to be angry. But kicking the cat does smack of misplaced punishment, a close cousin of collective punishment.
Anyone with the slightest familiarity with the contents of the report should know perfectly well that it both recognized and condemned the rocket fire – yet the lie persists.
I would happily kick some more culpable party than the cat, were they in range of my boot.
potsherd,
Get your boot closer to the perps, my man.
FPM
Good observation David Samel. Happens much too frequently.
Here, finally, is an Israeli commentator who calls out the lie. Despite the official Israeli charges in respect to the report, it is not one-side, it is not biased against Israel, and it does not ignore Hamas’ crimes.
Israel’s official responses, provided immediately upon the report’s publication, sounded as though they were prepared in advance and issued without at all addressing the report’s content.
link to ynetnews.com
I think it’s important not to let this pass, as the MSM will surely be repeating the lie until it passes for received truth.
Well to the extent MSM includes network and cable tv news channels (where most
Americans get their news these days after work or looking for a job, and doing needed
daily errands), I haven’t seen one word mentioned of the Goldstone report. The lie
by omission passes for truth every day.
Now we, and the Palestinian people, will get to see that true nature of a collaborationist regime:
“The administration also has made clear to the Palestinian Authority that Washington is not pleased with a P.A. petition to bring the report’s allegations against Israel to the International Criminal Court.”
More important for the American people to see it. Palestinains will not get their freedom until Americans get ours.
You’re right, but I was trying to point out that Abbas will undoubtedly play along as well. (Otherwise, there’s no more limousines to the Rose Garden for him.) Let’s see what happens to the PA petition.
Reminds me of the Bob Dylan song, ‘Just a Pawn in their Game’.
Of course, by definition, the State is not moralistic and only advances and protects it’s interests.
The Occupation is money. So is war. Etc.
The Palestinians have nothing to offer the US by way of realpolitik, Machiavellian bullshit.
So yea…it really makes you wonder how people can be so deluded by Obama and by the concept of a ‘savior’ in any sense. Obama had amazing PR, but it’s a two-way street.
I don’t know when to begin, because when you look at our history, there never was a golden age.
We act as though the Palestinians could plausibly get treated like human beings and have justice and blah blah. But that’s just not true.
This is just a fact of life.
Compare how many ex-Nazis are still hunted down while countless Establishment villains are not only able to escape justice in the present, but can write memoirs about their escapades and granted honors at mainstream institutions…
The Palestinians have no political capital.
This is based on both the shallow intellectual culture of the United States, but also the way image is used to shape reality.
Just think of how often we see the suffering of Israelis equated w/ that of the Palestinians. While at the same time, Arabs and Muslims are dehumanized in movie after movie.
I mean, we don’t even treat them like people, so I guess every other action movie, is just biographical.
So yea…it really makes you wonder how people can be so deluded by Obama and by the concept of a ’savior’ in any sense. Obama had amazing PR, but it’s a two-way street.
You are mistaking one of the top memes of the anti-Obama campaign for something real. As Richard kept writing the only way is careful reform, not revolution.
The PR of the Obama campaign was good because somebody studied the ill conceived Kerry campaign carefully. Someone did his homework. And he made the campaign fit Obama.
Besides America has to take great care to not look like a hypocrite. …
There is the Gaza war and then there was the Iraq war. That’s the trap the administration is caught in.
Yeah, well there’s an important history lesson the Obama crew seems to have neglected, had they maybe studied FDR as well as Kerry. Because frankly, the President getting something meaningful done in the first 100 days of his Presidency is more important by far than winning elections. Or else we might as well put the winner of the Miss America pageant in the White House, for what it will be worth.
If the administration is caught in a trap, then it’s a trap they deliberately stepped in so that they could cripple themselves and earn a crutch. I’m starting to think Obama’s tragic flaw is believing that being the first African American President is all he needs to be. And I’m starting to suspect that is all he will ever be remember for.
Cliff, yes, based on the shallow intellectual culture of the USA, and by the way image
is used to shape reality–and no image (or words) too–how many images of the Gaza
turkey shoot did you see on USA TV when it was happening? How many news anchors
discussed it in any detail, if at all? Most Americans get their five minutes or so of news from TV, when they aren’t watching sports or Oprah.
If this is true — and I will make sure it is — Obama just lost my support. And I worked for him, diligently, for a year before he caught on. I spent 20 hours/day working for him; I paid out of my own pocket to get him elected. He’s finished. He’s through in my book.
I will now work as diligently to see that his is a one-term presidency. He doesn’t have any balls, nor moral compass if this is allowed to stand.
I did the same for Ron Paul, and when it came down to Obama or McCain, I held my nose and voted for Obama. We need a public campaign finance system coupled with
free tv exposure for all candidates. Nothing else will cure us of the theft of our nation
via special interest lobbying dollars. That reduces our cylical single votes to nothing.
Patience folks. This has been going on for a long time. We shouldn’t expect the government to change overnight. The fact that we will bury the Goldstone report is continuation of previous policy, to not do so would be the big news. No one expected Obama to change ME policy in one full swoop.
What I found disappointing was not this, but in capitulating to Netanyahoo over expansion of the WB colonies. Obama signaled very strongly that US policy was going to be the opposition of further expansion. Obama has been directly defied. Not only that but by Obama’s statement yesterday he is implying that both sides were responsible for lack of progress when it so clear that Israel prevented movement. If those images stand Obama will be seen as a very weak president by the rest of the world. If he was unable to stand up to the lobby on this tiny issue he should have avoided it. This was one bad move.
I also worked hard for Obama. However, I have been around long enough to know that the president mostly inherits his predecessors policies and can change things only slowly and one at a time. So for those keeping score where are we.
Bank bailout versus bank reform. Banks won that for now.
Ending the war in Iraq. Yes, a big maybe but could be reversed.
Ending the Afghan war. War Party and the right won that.
Universal health care. Jury is still out.
Ending the WB colonization movement. Let us hope that the jury is still out.
Cutting financial and diplomatic support for Israeli crimes. No change.
See there is still reason for some hope.
We’ll see. I dont leave out much hope. You have no idea how hard I worked for Obama to win. This is a disappointment to me of the first order. My cut-off with people is their actual moral compass, not their expression of it. So I will wait to see what I am dealing with.
No one expected Obama to change ME policy in one full swoop
That’s “one fell swoop” actually or, alternately “one swell foop”
Did anyone expect Obama to cave, to completely reverse his campaign rhetoric, on so many things? I would not have thought it possible, but there it is. Of course he was running against a once stupid, now senile, and a certified screw-up, McCain, so that was easy.
Nothing Obama does is going to bite him in the butt as hard as trusting the Bush-Cheney military officer- contractor class people, and now the Israelis?
They will chew him up and spit him out. Obama is a fool.
Why do you think Obama is “caving”?
The man is not stupid enough to be blatantly manipulated nor taken in by Gates, Israel, et al.
My take is that the policies he pronounces are policies he believes in. Campaign promises are for chumps.
He was promoted and elected because the gop brand was badly tarnished, not for any substantive policy changes.
“The man is not stupid enough to be blatantly manipulated nor taken in by Gates, Israel, et al.”
Not stupid, just weak, indescisive and more interested in keeping his job that doing what is necessary.
McCain’s father was a key in the USS Liberty cover-up and McCain Jr defended him for that, and Obama allowed synchronized the turkey shoot timing in Gaza with Israel as a step to assure his election–he muzzled himself then and he’s muzzled himself now as to the Goldstone report. Before he was out, on the edge of being in, and now he is in, and planning for eight years…. He’s only a fool if you think he doesn’t do his best to make sure his family is first, and his identity politics view is second. “Spread the wealth,” as he told Joe The Plumber.
Perhaps this is rather timely. Be sure to check out the links, including the Department of Justice, Office of the Inspector General, Office of Oversight and Review’s “A Review of the FBI’s Actions in Connection With Allegations Raised By Contract Linguist Sibel Edmonds” in the FAS archives, the same place that kept scans of most of the AIPAC spy case court documents.
Exclusive: Cover Story on Edmonds ‘Outs’ Video-taped, ‘Blackmailed’ Dem Congresswoman; Alleges State Dept. Mole at NYTimes; MUCH MORE…, The Brad Blog
FBI Whistleblower says Neocons Negotiated Iraq Invasion with Foreign Agents in Summer 2001, Daily Kos
Who’s Afraid of Sibel Edmonds?, The gagged whistleblower goes on the record, The American Conservative
Sibel Edmond’s testimony is fascinating. Read Giraldi’s interview with her on antiwar.com. Yow.
The American Conservative link is the same thing. The female Illinois congresswoman (senator?) must be quaking in her boots.
OMG. This is explosive stuff. All the neo-cons involved in criminal activity. Stunning.
And how about this indictment of the MSM from The Brad Blog (hyperlink in Colin Murray’s post above):
Gives you a sick feeling to your stomach.
New York Times promoted the invasion of Iraq without question. With Judy “I was fucking right” Miller feeding her unconfirmed articles to the public without oversight. Lies Lies and more lies.
Judy could give a rats ass that she is drowning in the Iraqi peoples blood. If there is a hell that woman is going
Schakowski – Ms Progressive! Except, of course, when it comes to Israel.
I have to say I don’t know what most of you are talking about in here, because I did not see anything like “hope” and “change” coming down the pike. Participating in the system is not going to bring change, opposing it will – either oppose it or you will be talking about a mule and land acreage 100 plus years down the line also (well, maybe not that, but something like it).
You must be some true believers in here, because it is not merely Obama, it is the system itself – and it has ALWAYS been this way. It is nothing but a franchise of the elite, it is a ruse, a joke. However, you keep bellying up to the bar and ask for more, and you will get what you deserve.
THE GAME
Maybe it has not kicked you in the ass hard enough yet, bend over.
v… I clicked on The Game link, and not only danced around, but reveled in your ongoing great sense of humor. You do this time and again with your links.
That’s my point. After eight years of Bush-Cheney, the first thing Obama should have done is cleaned house. If he had even just started with the financial criminals it would have had a good effect, let alone the war criminals.
What does Obama think these folks are going to do for him that they wouldn’t do for Bush? Why does Obama think that after eight years of criminality and failure, now that HE is President they can hand him a good ending to Bush’s criminally misbegotten wars. All they will do for Obama is put his nuts in a vise and turn the handle.
The American military and intelligence community has one overiding mission, and to this mission they will cheerfully sacrifice Obama. That mission is to somehow avoid any accounting for their actions in the last eight years. Any kind of accounting, moral legal, financial, military. And chaos and escalation is their only friend. And they will have it, no matter what the price for Obama. He’s a chump.
Or, as the Israeli Knesset members are chuckling among themselves, while high-fiving — a sucker!
Just like the Health Insurance companies, and Wall Street, too. Obama caves to everybody. Maybe they could re-name Carlsbad after him. Obama cavern.
Well, you are right it is “the system,” that is, the aggregate of a small amount of the total American adult population who want to retain power and control for their own agenda, or ditto as to those who wish to gain political government office. Nothing much has really changed since the likes of the politics depicted in Braveheart. And it never will. The king is dead, long live the (revised) king. In 1940 Europe, for example,
the Jews were out, and now, the Jews are in (in terms of actual organized power, not individual
jews. This can be attributed to the fact the USA campaign finance is not publically financed by legislation and all electoral candidates do not have access to the public air waves by fiat legislation. Compared to Europe, for example, our regime is
made by who gives gives the most money. It’s an auction system for special interests who do not have the general American interest as their main goal–the individual average American has a single vote yet may be ignored by all congressional candidates–it’s a clear pattern.
and Presidents as they are to poor to matter–donations are everything.
Would put money on it that Rahm made the call. Just can not figure out why Obama chose him to be Chief of Staff.
Anyway to find out who made that call
“Both our parties today are corrupted by support for extreme Israeli actions in that region that are destroying our brand across the Middle East. And when phone calls like this happen, you gotta wonder who’s got a stranglehold here.”
Been the case for a long time. The I/P conflict s is where all of the alleged liberal Dems generally took a hard turn right (wrong)
So what’s the % of total donations to democratic campaign financing, Jewish Americans
with a single focus on Israel First at 40 to 50% percent of all campaign donations?
Come on people, there is no ostensible major difference between the Republican and Democratic party – do you really believe this nonsense? I really don’t know what to say to you, let me post someone who makes it plain. Now, he might not be you’re speaker of choice, and definitely has certain interests, but you cannot mistake what he is talking about. If you have the patience listen to him, because I think that a few here do not even know what this system is all about – I can tell by your participation and than predictable disappointment.
I mean it is time for you to recognize what is going on, rather than waiting for the merry-go-round to come around to the next election ring, because just like that merry-go-round you are going in circles and not advancing at all – the only truth that does not match that analogy is that things are getting progressively worse. However, those few whose interest is recognized, that elite moneyed class are growing by leaps and bounds advancing exponentially – and they are not mono-ethnically represented (in other words its not just “the Jews”). So here is some plain talk about what is going on, take the time to listen to it plainly spoken – if you do not like the messenger just listen to the message –
WHITE POWER IN BLACK FACE
Zionism is the ideology of institutionalized Jewish exceptionalism — the belief that the rules that apply to gentiles don’t, and shouldn’t, apply to Jews, and an agenda to governmentally institutionalize that belief. Israel is founded upon that ideology, just like the Soviet Union was founded upon the ideology of Communism.
The ideology of Jewish exceptionalism doesn’t necessarily need to be limited to Israel; it can be taken to the four corners of the earth, and to a certain extents seems to be taking root the United States, via the cultural and lobbying efforts of a multiplicity of Jewish Zionists and Christian Zionist organizations, operatives, and their causes, and even by the efforts U.S. federal government itself. For example, the State Department has established the Office to Monitor and Combat Anti-Semitism, which “develops and implements policies and projects to support efforts to combat anti-Semitism,” and does so “both in the U.S. and internationally.”
link to state.gov
How is this office an example of ideological Jewish exceptionalism? Because there is no “Office of anti-Christianism, or “Office of anti-Islamicism.” But there is an office of anti-Semitism, which is just another drop in an ocean of evidence from Washington to Tel Aviv that powerful factions within the U.S. federal government are pursuing anti-American, ideological Jewish exceptionalism in defiance of the U.S. Constitution and against the best interests of the American people (not to mention millions of people across the Middle East.)
So tell me Chris, since you think it is incumbent on you to constantly make statements not only like this, but about all other nations – what causes American exceptionalism? What makes America think it is the ruler of the world, or that it owns the world? What is it that causes such a bloody history?
The history of US policy, even before WW2, is a history of violent and bloody intervention. It has not been a force for good, virtue, and democracy in the world. You have been propagandized – you have been fooled – you have been taken for the proverbial ride, there is not a more brainwashed and disconnected people in history than the American public, and you reflect that well.
Our leaders say they are dedicated to democracy, they vainly spew it from their mouths on a regular basis, but it is a lie. The US national security state has been the key force of (the last 50 years for example) overthrowing reformist democratic governments in Guatemala, Guiana, Dominican Republic, Brazil, Chile, Uruguay, Syria, Indonesia, Greece, Argentina, Haiti, Bolivia, and that does not even scratch the surface of all the places violated. These democratic governments have been replaced with pro-capitalist military regimes, that open up their resources, markets and cheap labor (unorganized and underpaid, intimidated by death squads), and have been forced open to US corporate investors on terms that are totally agreeable to them.
The US government has been involved in covert actions, in proxy mercenary wars (run by proteges of the School Of The America’s in some instances) – training, equipping, paying, advising, via the Pentagon, the CIA, and the US National Security State against popular revolutionary governments in Cuba, Angola, Mozambique, Ethiopia, Portugal, South Yemen, Nicaragua, Cambodia, East Timor, Western Sahara, Egypt, Lebanon, Peru, Iran, Zaire, Figi Islands, Afghanistan ( which is another woefully lacking list). Us forces with direct aggression and invasion have attacked in recent years Viet Nam, the Dominican Republic, North Korea, Cambodia, Yugoslavia, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, with invasion or aerial assault – once again a short list. Millions of people killed by both direct and indirect aggressive actions.
Of course, you never hear a word about this from the US corporate media, the whores and liars for the state. They become mute when they are told, and are infested by psyop’s military spokespersons – even their ranks are filled with ex-CIA and FBI cronies.
All through the Middle East, popular movements, workers movements, unions, student movements, farmer collectives – all of them destroyed and shattered by US aggression in Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon. In Saudi Arabia that filthy rich, corrupt family would not be able to survive if they did not have US support.
Twenty one countries in Africa have had enormous amounts of US arms, and bribes, to put in the most oppressive, retrograde, and corrupt rulers in to destroy every popular and democratic movement. Those in Africa are perfectly capable (contrary to racist propaganda, taught in US schools and spread by corporate media) of democracy, viable production, and have the ability to organize their own markets and labor – they are not allowed to do it. Because of the destruction of the economic infrastructure, the impoverishment of the people, and the destruction of their future – they have killed the future of these nations. Drowning them in debt, tying their viability to foreign capital, and spiriting the wealth away from the people.
Anyone who dares to question these atrocious actions is called a rogue state. There is no rogue state, no terrorist movement, no communist threat, that has this kind of record. This record of murder, destruction and violation of international law solely belongs to the US leadership. This is a matter of public record, it’s just that it does not get voiced in the corrupt media in the US.
It is not good enough to just say that this is happening, we have to ask WHY is this happening. People have to know why these atrocities are going on – as long as they believe the lies that they are being protected nothing will happen. They do not care what their leaders are doing as long as they think they are protecting them. The leadership drums it into their heads that people are out to get them, the communists – someone in south/central America – someone from the moon – the terrorists, etc. I mean every year it is something else, it is really sickening. They do it because they want it all, they want to do whatever is necessary to fill the pockets of the few, the elite. They get rich while the people pay the price. The so-called war on terrorism is the elites ticket to carte blanch destruction of other countries without end – because it is a “new war,” and it is one that will “never end.”
The US government has given hundreds of billions of dollars away for foreign military aid – imagine what that could have done at home, enough to solve all the budgetary concerns in the states right now. It was aid given away to subsidize millions of foreign troops and internal security forces in more than eighty countries. Not to defend those nations from outside invasion – but to protect ruling oligarchs and corporate investors from the dangers of domestic anti-capitalistic insurgency. There has been no evidence that they have been threatened by neighboring countries, so why build up the military forces? IT IS TO MAKE WAR ON THEIR OWN PEOPLE, THEIR OWN WORKING PEOPLE. TO PROTECT THOSE COUNTRIES AND MAKE THE WORLD SAFE FOR THE FORTUNE 500. THESE COUNTRIES ARE OPENED ON A GLOBAL SCALE FOR EXPLOITATION FROM TRANS-NATIONAL CORPORATIONS AND INVESTORS. THESE FORCES THAT WE SUPPORT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN USED TO OPPRESS PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT SOME FORM OF EGALITARIAN FAIR PLAY.
The struggle has always been between those who think the land, the labor, the resources, the markets, the technology, and the capital of the world are there for the capital accumulation and enrichment process of the few, as opposed to those who think those things are there for the needs and the social betterment of the many. That is the struggle that goes on to this day.
If you think what I am talking about is a recent development you are sadly mistaken, in 1907 listen to what Woodrow Wilson said: “Since trade ignores national boundaries, and the manufacturer insists on having the world as a market – the flag of the nation must follow him, and the doors which are closed against him must be battered down. Concessions gained by finance must be safeguarded by ministers of state. Even if the sovereignty of the nations are outraged in the process. Colonies must be obtained and planted in order that no useful corner of the world may be overlooked or unused.”
So tell me, what causes such actions like this Chris? I have not even scratched the surface. Don’t even try to bring it back to the “beginning,” what some weird idea of the motivations of the “founding fathers” was supposed to be, because what is now international is what took place on this continent from the beginning. What ideology produces this?
Let me give you a hint – from kingdoms, to feudalism, and on to capitalism one truth reigns supreme, a small elite rules and is enriched. It is the same thing that takes place in Israel also, so you can stop foaming at the mouth about Communist Jews – they are not in control, the damn capitalists are in control. Israel has a 10/90 split in wealth, amazingly similar to what takes place in America – that is right, the Jews have their underclass from the majority that lived in Schetls in Europe (you know, those ones that took over all of Europe, and other Nazi bullshit) and a large underclass in Israel. I know its not what you want to hear, but hey, its the truth.
v., I have no idea who you are arguing with. I don’t see any messianic neocon globalists here.
I think that it’s a bit of a stretch to conflate the Founding Fathers and the weak antebellum Federal Government with the modern imperial machinations of transnational capitalists, which I don’t think even Hamilton could have dreamed of.
Well DavidF than you are indeed a poor student of American history. However, why should I have to repeat myself, I have posted before that there are statements from the majority of the “founding fathers” that showed its aim was empire. However, it did not stop with merely slavery but with what was termed “expansionism,” that just became a matter of genocidal activity that killed what is approximated to be 15,000,000 indigenous people. The theft of bordered territories, the raping of Latin America, to the taking of Islands within the radius of its immediate waters, to international thievery which goes on to this day.
EMPIRE AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE
The above for a very short course, and the rest should have been you’re own effort to study which is apparently lacking. Your brief statement of dismissal is evidence of your ignorance.
@ v…,
On the one hand you attack Americans as insanely greedy capitalists and hick racists, on the other hand you claim to be an advocate for the American “working man” — presumably mostly comprised of these same hick racists.
On the one hand you say people are falling into a binary trap by reducing their choices to Democrats or Republicans, on the other you fall into the same binary trap by forcing a choice between capitalists and socialists.
On the one hand you list litanies of abuses perpetrated by capitalism, on the other you ignore longer lists of abuses (and millions more murders) perpetrated by Communism.
On the one hand you acknowledge that powerful centralized states are the mechanisms of oppression. On the other you call for an even more powerful and more centralized state as the solution.
Let me ask you something: If entire continents are socialized into a single State, what do you think will become of these hyper-ambitious, power-mad, money-worshipping psychos that permeate every society and thrive with minimal accountability under corrupted Capitalism? Why, they’ll just join the Party and thrive with even less accountability and more impunity (and government protection) under corrupt socialism, as the Soviet Commissars did.
That’s why I keep bringing up the Founders — because they wrote the blueprint for a system of diffused powers, decentralized powers, checked and balanced powers that could viably keep accountability on behalf of the People by limiting the scale and scope of central government, and allowing local government to take care of everything else. It may have not been perfect, and they may not have always lived up to their own ideals, but it was a start. Why, even Marx had an ultimate goal of the State melting away, and the US Constitution could have put us on the road to that end. Unfortunately, over time, the Constitutional framework and its government mechanism was infiltrated, sabotaged, corrupted, and destroyed by opportunists, socialists and sinister money powers, until it has eroded to today’s point of murderous plutocratic socialism.
I won’t delve deeply into certain strains of obsessive and megalomaniacal Jewish psychology that demand centralization and socialism as a means of controlling the levers of power across huge expanses of politics, geography and economy out of a cultural control-freak insecurity and irrational neurosis, because I have learned to hold my tongue out of good manners and a grudging respect, but I will say that Jewish Marxists and everyone else would be better off skipping all the Communist crap and proceeding directly to the deconstruction of the powerful central state in order that problems can be solved from bottom-up instead of top-down, because after all, isn’t it the unaccountable, elitist top-down model what put us in this position in the first place?
Chris, nicely said. Any takers? Chris makes a good argument.
V, who are you arguing with? Seems to me Chris agrees with you. He did mention USA exceptionalism (btw heavily expressly supported by Fox News anchors) and for sure did not exempt it.
Chris, you’re fallacious arguments above are about as valid as your views of early American views and its current course and cause of its condition. Well you asked for it, now you are going to receive it.
“On the one hand you attack Americans as insanely greedy capitalists and hick racists, on the other hand you claim to be an advocate for the American “working man” — presumably mostly comprised of these same hick racists.”
No, I make a distinction between the people and the elite influence that has been fostered upon them. Knowing that in this particular system that any group of people can be misled and exploited, just like foreign territories – an invasion of their minds and thinking apparatus, a truncation of their knowledge by absense of teaching and skewed information (see school textbooks). So I believe that peoples minds can be changed, and even individuals like you who have swallowed elite ideas like candy can change.
“On the one hand you say people are falling into a binary trap by reducing their choices to Democrats or Republicans, on the other you fall into the same binary trap by forcing a choice between capitalists and socialists.”
There is no binary trap there is merely systems which can gives rise to a rapacious small elite like capitalism inevitably creates, or an egalitarian alternative which does not offer the opportunity to act this way (see above posts), like socialism. It is not a matter of equal choice, but really a matter of life or death for humanity.
“On the one hand you list litanies of abuses perpetrated by capitalism, on the other you ignore longer lists of abuses (and millions more murders) perpetrated by Communism.”
Communism did not commit those atrocities, but a deadly centralism with a communist facade which gave rise to a murderous elite. If you had read the works of Marx you would realize that if followed correctly it would have never given rise to Stalinist atrocities. However, after saying that, there were definitely great atrocities, but hardly from what was proposed in the works of Marx. So I do write and speak of these mass murders, I just do not attribute them to a communism which would have arisen with the proper application of its foundational writings . Now you, you bark “communism, communism!” like you are trained by your elites, while all the people wither, and in the meantime embrace all of the ideas which were meant to enslave you (similar to the “great horde of Muslims” which is part and parcel of the so-called “war on terror”).
“Let me ask you something: If entire continents are socialized into a single State, what do you think will become of these hyper-ambitious, power-mad, money-worshipping psychos that permeate every society and thrive with minimal accountability under corrupted Capitalism? Why, they’ll just join the Party and thrive with even less accountability and more impunity (and government protection) under corrupt socialism, as the Soviet Commissars did.”
That has already been explained by my above remarks distinguishing Stalinist centralism from communism.
“That’s why I keep bringing up the Founders — because they wrote the blueprint for a system of diffused powers, decentralized powers, checked and balanced powers that could viably keep accountability on behalf of the People by limiting the scale and scope of central government, and allowing local government to take care of everything else. It may have not been perfect, and they may not have always lived up to their own ideals, but it was a start. Why, even Marx had an ultimate goal of the State melting away, and the US Constitution could have put us on the road to that end. Unfortunately, over time, the Constitutional framework and its government mechanism was infiltrated, sabotaged, corrupted, and destroyed by opportunists, socialists and sinister money powers, until it has eroded to today’s point of murderous plutocratic socialism.”
My recommendation to you is to read the Constitution and than ask yourself the question why the people demanded a bill of rights, and than meditate on the fact that this bill was refused by the “founding fathers” to the man (no takers). It is your own ignorance of the Constitution that fails to ask this above question, or to understand the rejection of the amendments by the precious “founding fathers.” Why, the very AIM of government according to the father of the Constitution, Madison, in Federalist Paper 10 says it is “to check the leveling impulses of the people” and to protect men of means from the lower classes. Also, that it is the “responsible class” which is supposed to rule, and not the people. You have a lot of study to do. The proper name for what it was and is – polyarchy.
It did not turn into a “murderous plutocracy,” it has always been that way and it has NOTHING to do with socialism, no matter how many times you try to bastardize meaning by the close association of words. It is crony capitalism, which is just another phrase for “murderous plutocracy.”
The idea of “check and balance” is an explanation of verbal fodder for the masses, these checks and balances have been run over rough shod since the inception of this country – it did not just start in the last hundred years. It is about as valid as the concept of “representation” which was a ruse to pass the Constitution, and was argued against vociferously by the ruling elite. The entire frame of the Constitution was built to isolate the people from ruling the nation, this can not only seen by the original qualifications for office but by the scoffing at redress which has always shorted the will of the people. Not to mention other issues like the appointment of judges high and lower in every critical realm of final appeal, etc.
You write as though there was some panacea of middle class in the beginning of this nation, some form of equality that never existed. From the very beginning America, the myth of America – the land free of want and the disparity of the old feudal world, just DID NOT EXIST. There were landed estates given to the few by the British crown, by 1700 the real estate in all of New York belonged to less than a dozen men – in 1760 fewer than 500 men in five colonial cities controlled most of the commerce, the banking, the mining, the manufacturing and most of the news papers and journals on the eastern seaboard – and THEY owned most of the land.
America from the beginning was not an egalitarian, middle class society. Property qualifications by 1787 left most without land, and the one’s who wanted to hold public office had such standards that few could qualify. The men who got together to write the Constitution were successful planters, bankers, slave holders, merchants – who else could afford to give up four months of time in Philadelphia? Many were linked by kinship and marriage, by previous office holding, and by military or diplomatic service.
Most of the common people were involved in farming (85%), small farmers, tenants, or indentured servants who tried to work their way out of debt to a creditor. These people suffered under heavy rents, ruinous taxes, and low income. Many trying to pay their debt off mortgaged their future crops, which did nothing but put them in further debt. News papers during this period complained about “increasing numbers of young beggars in the streets” !!
Economic prisoners crowded the jails, and MANY believed that the revolution was fought for only one reason – TO FURTHER ENGORGE THE RICH. This resulted in numerous rebellions that caused many deaths and imprisonments.
“I won’t delve deeply into certain strains of obsessive and megalomaniacal Jewish psychology that demand centralization and socialism as a means of controlling the levers of power across huge expanses of politics, geography and economy out of a cultural control-freak insecurity and irrational neurosis, because I have learned to hold my tongue out of good manners and a grudging respect, but I will say that Jewish Marxists and everyone else would be better off skipping all the Communist crap and proceeding directly to the deconstruction of the powerful central state in order that problems can be solved from bottom-up instead of top-down, because after all, isn’t it the unaccountable, elitist top-down model what put us in this position in the first place? ”
Indeed, do not delve into the “obsessive and megalomaniacal Jewish psychology,” because it is about as valid as the “Arab Mind,” and makes you nothing more than a “specialist” orientalist. It might behoove you to study more of the true confluence of interest that brings us to this point, rather than fallacious psychobabble.
I agree that something must be done with the system, not merely an adjustment of the state. This is the difference that has always existed between reform and revolution. By all means it should be a project of all the people.
I trust this clarifies the issue, and if not I can elaborate further.
For further reflection, this is what capitalism (which is really synonymous with empire and imperialism, these cannot be had without capitalism) creates – it is the gift that keeps on giving –
THE GIFT
V…,
Here is a short chapter (The Myth of the Greedy Founders) with references for further study from the Thom Hartmann book “Screwed” that I referred to on another thread. It rebuts most of your parlor socialist theories on the Founders from the perspective of a guy with socialist sympathies himself.
link to books.google.com
Re “The Arab Mind”: Interestingly, the same author of the book by that title, Raphael Patai, wrote a sequel that readers here might find interesting called “The Jewish Mind.”
link to books.google.com
He treats the study of cultures in the same detached way a naturalist would treat the study of species, which is really the only intellectual way to approach it, and contrasts with the authoritarian socialist approach that demands we are all the same and should be all shoved into the same paradigm.
Don’t get me wrong. On the most important levels, we ARE all the same, but that culture and environment shapes individuals and their perspectives and thinking is undeniable.
In fact, that’s another issue I have with socialists. God and environment over the course of hundreds and thousands of years created the races and cultures which dwell in the contemporary world, yet socialists (from the Bushcons on the Right trying to social engineer the Mideast to Communists on the Left trying to social-engineer the world) have the chutzpah to believe that they and their ideology can shape and mold these culture into what they want them to be, and what they think they should be. In short, they want to play God. Miserable lot that most of them are, why would they even WANT to mold man into their own image (as if they could ever succeed at such a thing anyway)?
As I see it, the role of the intellectual is to understand, and at most attempt to manage the interactions between cultures in the most efficient and peaceful possible manner so that each can pursue its God-given role. Vis-à-vis control-oriented Jews, this means managing their tendencies towards monopoly and totalitarianism so that they aren’t allowed to artificially suppress the actualization of other peoples and cultures through authoritarian intrigue and warmongering.
As Oliver Wendell Holms said: “The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins.”
I think neither capitalism nor communism as actually practiced rather than preached
since they came onto the scene are equally malignant. Both you guys ignore the reality of either as experienced by the masses under either form of government.
That is a nice argument within the limits of your assumptions Chris, that is, as if I were looking through a lens of a couple of hundred years of history – unfortunately it is not the case. What I am talking about were the views of the common people at the time.
Let me give you an example, Shay’s Rebellion. After Shay’s rebellion was put down, there were some very telling words spoken by General Henry Knox to George Washington – ” They see the weakness of the government; they feel at once their own poverty, compared to the opulent, and their own force, and they are determined to make use of the latter in order to remedy the former. Their creed is that the property of the U.S. has been protected from the confiscations of Britain by the joint exertions of all, and therefore should be the common property of all.” So, what I am talking about were the growing sentiments of the time, to such a degree that rebellions were multiplying, and there were state insurrections etc., not something you can dismiss out of hand as hindsight historical views – there was NO pristine past.
Why am I not surprised that you praise Patai who is nothing but an state orientalist? It is amazing how you laud his “objectivity” and yet he uses categorical nonsense, similar to the specious view of the “coleoric , phlegmatic,” etc. bullshit of yesteryear. Pigeon holing millions and billions of people into a categorical hole – simply amazing. Than you have the gall to say this is what you hate about others? You trade one fallacy for another – you are a sick puppy. “You cannot do thus and so with whomever because this is their mental cast,” utter nonsense. You are wrong from both directions, that of hard and fast systems and the makeup of groups of people. This you mix with the preposterous views of theism.
One final note on Oliver Wendell Holms. That is an admirable philosophy, he should have followed it as he became the hammer of forced eugenics sterilizing the poor and people of color, saying their kind was a “disease.” I might add, you fallacious racial views, the make-up of mankind, and your skewed positions on history will eventually cause you to be sympathetic with the atrocities I just mentioned about Holms – hopefully I am wrong.
It’s simply impossible to reconcile your one-size-fits-all socialist ideology with the complex variegation of world religion, ethnicity, and culture, and so you don’t even try. Instead, you cherry-pick imperfections in those variegated civilizations from some abstract, imaginary “perfect,” and extrapolate them out to indict entire religions, cultures, belief systems, ways of life…the socialists perform the same trick on virtually every civilization on earth for their own ends, and if they somehow took the United States today, they’d be using the same nasty tactics against Islam, for example, tomorrow.
Yet your own hard-Left ideology has already indicted itself and been found guilty of systemic mass murder across continents, from Stalin to Pol Pot to Mao. Still, you sweep all those hundreds of millions of dead and murdered under the rug as insignificant deviations and immaterial collateral damage in the march towards your imaginary utopia…and then you have the temerity to call me a “sick puppy”?
What’s the problem, have you already vested too much emotional and psychological energy into hard socialism to turn back now? A word to the wise, even if you ever win, you lose, and will likely end up a suicide or purged casualty when the realization of what you and your kind have wrought hits you — that is, assuming you still have a conscience at that point.
Listen Chris, I do not have to go into a response to silly retorts about Socialism with you, that any halfwit knows the variety – but you keep “proclaiming” the same crap and at the same time not responding one iota to what I said. Any argument is a quid pro quo, with you it is just repetitive unsubstantiated (because reality tells us a different story) croaks – so you keep pontificating like a pope, because you lost this argument big time from the beginning.
Capitalism is supposed to be one shoe fits all, that is what you DO NOT say in your silly diatribes. Yes, equal exploitation, death, and destruction for all – we do not kill you in the country, but we send you overseas to die in senseless wars that just enrich the few. We (capitalists) kill by the hundreds of millions all over the world, both directly and indirectly with policy, but at least we do not kill our own, and that makes us OK. Such is the nature of your childish dribble.
You are even into quoting that those who were supported by America (CIA, Pol Pot) is somehow communist, what utter bullshit. On the contrary it is you Chris that needs to pull your “reasoning” head from your posterior because you have too much emotional and psychological energy invested in propagandist lies, false history, and faith in a system that will NEVER listen to the people – it was not created from day one for that purpose. Of, for and by the people my ass.
I would warn you also about the dangers of your path, but it is too late, it has already created havoc all over the planet, and the only thing keeping you from suicide (as you state above about me) is denial and delusion. Apparently even an attempt to find a conscience in you is long gone, mission accomplished – god bless America.
v. – - I don’t see how you expect to persuade anyone with personal insults mixed in with mouldy socialist polemic that sounds like it was cribbed from Weimar-era Spartacist pamphlets.
I don’t see DavidF how pointing out my “insults” in response to Chris’s insults, of which you remain silent, can even approach the bar of objective criticism. That is because I handed you a response above – in fact, I might as well repeat it, since you have learned nothing – lets do it in shorthand –
“The above for a very short course, and the rest should have been you’re own effort to study which is apparently lacking. Your brief statement of dismissal is evidence of your ignorance.”
Which still remains
Clarification from my previous post: “Instead, you [socialists] cherry-pick imperfections in those variegated civilizations [and contrast them] to some imaginary [socialist] “perfect,” and then extrapolate [the imperfections] out to indict entire religions, cultures, belief systems, ways of life, etc…and if [socialists] somehow took the United States today, they’d be using the same nasty tactics against Islam, for example, tomorrow.”
I’m no fan of capitalism or communism, but John Mearsheimer’s previous book shows that a state’s foreign policy is generally independent of its ideology.
Now that’s a good point after reading the dialogue between Communism and Capitalism. I don’t know I totally agree with America First about the general independence of a state’s foreign policy from it’s ideology. I’d say Ike’s military industrial complex has only expanded since his death–we didn’t have Blackwater in Ike’s day. Surely the Israeli-USA military complex is a branch of Capitalism writ greedy? Same in the tech area, with so may military uses. What does Communism have to say about the I-P scenario?
If you’re correction did something to “improve” your non-argument I would respond, but it remains the same Chris. However, tell me about the perfect capitalism – I always love the “Adam Smith” dream of the invisible hand of the market…lol It is like the “checks and balances and representation” fairy tales. The perfect capitalism that never was, because it was never created to produce what an elite told people it was supposed to produce. Tell us about it Chris hehe
“…John Mearsheimer’s previous book shows that a state’s foreign policy is generally independent of its ideology. ”
Here are three reasons why this is not true, because the aim of this state is empire through capitalism:
1). It cannot be reduced from the Republic (no matter how strong) because it will eventually eat up all of the people and the institutions. To try to parse ideology from foreign policy is like saying the actors of power have alter egos;
2). The foreign policy cannot be independent of its ideology because of what it proclaims it will produce. In the case of American foreign policy it claims it will produce little democracies (which is a joke of epic proportions);
3). Last, capitalism cannot be reduced from foreign policy because it is the system which exploits for its own benefit every time, and no matter what it takes. That is what is produced each time foreign policy is employed, this exploitation through any means necessary, which is the essence of it ideologically.
Oh, one other thing Chris, we have not been talking about little points and “cherry picking imperfections,” we have been discussing the very foundation of this nation. Second, it is the rubric of socialism to embrace all diversity, not accentuate the diversity to a default and to vilify like you’re view does, as all nationalism does. It is not socialism that has been using “nasty tactics against Islam,” but the United States leadership and its crony capitalist immoral crew in concert with Zionism. They stick together (Zionism and the white Anglo-elite) because they ARE alike.
V…,
A few points to rebut your straw men
1) You have tried to pigeonhole me as a Capitalist. I am not a Capitalist (aka money worshipper) but an advocate of a competently regulated free market, and free enterprise, and an advocate of bottom-up government (as previously discussed on another thread.)
2) Capitalism and Communism (hard socialism) are both atheist-materialist constructs, and their morality and ethics (or lack thereof) reflect this. Hard Capitalists and hard Socialists have similar, shark-like orientations.
3) Socialism is morally bankrupt because it is economically precipitated upon a ponzi scheme of government theft from ever larger sectors of the economy and ever more private assets of the people. This theft becomes increasingly necessary and blatant as time goes by because socialism dis-incentivizes work, productivity, ingenuity and entrepreneurialism. When it has sucked one country dry, it is forced to move on to more and more countries to extract their lifeblood as well, in order to survive. In short, it is parasitic.
4) I believe the Mideast wars were initially fought on behalf of Zionism, war-profiteering, and (strategic) oil-imperialism. But I also believe they were fought out of perverse economic necessity, because American spending on Big Government programs (socialism) had gotten so out of control, the deficits and national debt were getting so high, and the unfunded entitlements like social security (another “self-financing” socialist program that had been raided by the post-Constitutional plutocrat-socialist Congrees — aka Commissariat ) had gotten so big, that America had to flex its imperial muscle to keep the dollar from collapsing. So in essence, we are using the most powerful military in the world (one of our few remaining “great” assets), to prop up the dollar, and keep it propped up as we print and borrow ever more money to pay for ever larger government. I believe someone sat down with Obama at some point and explained this reality to him, which is why the wars continue.
This fourth point also relates to point three.
5) Socialism is “diverse” all right — diverse in its targets for theft and murder to pay for itself. Like the rain, it falls (prey) upon all, regardless of their color or creed. Why, just like the Soviet Union…
Thanks for confirming the fairy tale of “free enterprise” Chris. Your bottom up government has not materialized, and that is because it is impossible under the current construct. I also appreciate the equally spurious theistic foundations you espouse confirmed. The view of a government as spoken in this system, from the beginning, being of the people is one of the biggest lies perpetrated today – the history being the robbery of the people, murder in every quarter both foreign and domestic, in order to feed the few – of course, in the name of “free enterprise.” Also I appreciate the honesty when you say that you believe in the principle of greed and selfishness in work to be the highest expression of why anything will be produced, rather than the good of mankind – that good ol’ “rugged individualism.”
This view of yours gets “better” all the time, especially the one in regard to foreign policy of wars, which have repeatedly been proven to do nothing but enrich the few, as an example –
“War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.”
Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC.
However, for you it enriches the people through social programs, no doubt you have “welfare queens” as your primary target of dispossession. In the meantime the democratic landscape recedes exponentially for a people who are disenfranchised – even though wars increase, and the budget for them swallows the rest. I call your view the simple bumpkin theory, while you mouth all of the elite platitudes of stealing from the people for social programs and cannot even decipher the current budget. In fact, you cannot even pinpoint who trillions of dollars was most recently given to, was it the people? Of course not, it was to the few and the people be damned, but you are so blinded by your elite ideas that you cannot even identify the expenditures in the current debacle and who they benefit. Keep shouting about the people who are getting less all the time, as the income gap is worse than the days of the robber barons (another time period you probably suffer from amnesia regarding).
Curse the rain Chis and choke on the dust from the boots of the privileged few, it is your heritage, you deserve it. In the meantime you try to set up your “pure” free enterprise system, to the applause of corporations as they swallow you alive, we will not even hear the gulp.
I’m slowly compiling slogans that go to the real essence of the Left’s vision. Here was the first one:
“We’re all just evolved apes. Let’s start acting like it!”
Thanks v, you’ve helped me find another:
“The good is the enemy of the perfect. Therefore all good must be destroyed on the road to perfection!”
Geez, v, if we tear civilization down far enough, we can just repeat the cycles of the last 1500 years. You hard lefties really are extreme fundamentalists, aren’t you? Do you really hate toilets that much?
Actually we are reducing to the ridiculous right now (this is what happens when opponents have no argument), and I am being kind saying this because you’re arguments were ridiculous from the beginning…lol Just kidding Chris…
Unfortunately, again we diverge, and this is because we have different views of “civilization,” I posit civilization in the good and furtherance of humanity – you, by your “toilet” reference posit it in material technology alone. When technologies are horded by the few for their profit while holding the rest hostage, or using them as a means of robbing the people via advanced military capability, we have not developed humanity. Projects which enhance the people are profitable in the long term, not short term profits for the few.
However, let me leave by mirroring for you what you propose by your argument, it almost seems libertarian by terms and definitions twisted in the rhetoric predominant in the USA. Consider it my parting words of wisdom (lol) –
“PERFECT” CAPITALISM
“I’m slowly compiling slogans that go to the real essence of the Left’s vision. ”
It’s no surprise. Those on the right can only think in slogans that fit onto a bumber sticker.
Citizen, want to know what a true and consistent position is for the “I-P Conflict” in regard to socialism? Knock yourself out -
MATZPEN
Or, if you do not want to do a lot of reading, watch this –
ANTI-ZIONISM