High stakes power politics. Jeremy Ben-Ami of J Street has written a very good letter challenging Michael Oren, Israel’s ambassador to the U.S., to come to the J Street conference in late October. Oren has evidently declined earlier overtures– and warned that J Street is acting against Israel’s "interests."
Here Ben-Ami takes up the challenge. You say J Street is hurting Israel? We say Israel is hurting American Jews! You will see that his letter is strong about the dangers that Israeli militancy poses to the U.S. and to Jewish identity.
We too have our own serious concerns over the policies of the present Israeli government and its impact not just on Israel’s interests but on our interests as Americans and as American Jews. As Jews who care about Israel, we fear that, on Israel’s present path, we will see our shared dream of a Jewish, democratic home in the state of Israel slip through our fingers.
As Americans, we worry about the impact of Israeli policies on vital US interests in the Middle East and around the world.
Finally, as American Jews, we worry that the health and vitality of our community will be deeply affected by what happens in the region, how the world perceives Israel and by how our community here at home deals with increasingly complex conversations around Israel.
I think that J Street will win this tactical war. It’s more sophisticated than Oren. Those "increasingly complex conversations"– hey, Oren, who has the Maccabees forever in his mouth (as Kafka said of Zionists) is incapable of them. So Oren won’t show up, and it will further alienate liberal Obama Jews from the current Israeli government, and that government will ultimately fall. My point is that Oren needs J Street more than J Street needs Oren. A friend points out that Oren has passed up an important opportunity to speak up for Palestinian human rights:
The dynamic against voicing a word of concern about how Israel’s policies negatively affect Palestinians must be very strong as he passed up a definite opportunity here. It’s all about harm to Israel’s interests and American interests while ignoring that that harm is being caused by very real harm to Palestinians.
I think that J Street will win this tactical war. It’s more sophisticated than Oren.
Oren also coasted in on the guarantee in his mind that no one would really, not really, contradict him, because no US media outlet would allow it.
As centrist as “progressive Zionist” JStreet may be, this is a valuable argument to be raising. Imagine! Reflexive support of anything Israel does is not necessarily good for American Jews. And telling the Israelis that, too. Admirable.
Phil is making some big leaps here, but let’s say he’s right and the current Israeli government falls. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? What’s the advantage of having a kinder, gentler politician carry out Netenyahu’s policies, much as Obama carries out Bush’s policies?
The Israeli votership has demonstrated that it will never choose peace, and the current government has demonstrated that there is no makeup so racist and vile that the US will not support it totally. If a government including Avigdor Lieberman did not cause American Jews to rise up in protest, nothing will.
The last election was in a way a test, and US Jews failed.
Can/do American Jews vote in Israeli elections?
I learned that Iranian-Americans could and did vote in Iran’s election, and wondered if there are other Americans who can affect the policy decisions of other states which which the US has relations. ie. Can British-Americans vote in elections in Great Britain? Does having dual citizenship mean that one can be a fully participating member of two different, perhaps adversarial, nations?
“If a government including Avigdor Lieberman did not cause American Jews to rise up in protest, nothing will”
I’m more optimistic than you, on that subject. I am convinced that simple disinterest and alienation of American Jews from Zionism would be fatal to the American-Israeli relationship. No not as fast and not as definitely as it would be if they all started or joined anti-Zionist organisations, but that’s all it would take.
Again, “rise up in protest” through which means? Through what mechanism?
There is no annual Jewish Convention at which a statement could be made (or even the conference itself boycotted)
It’ll be a much longer and much more herky-jerky process, but it’s happening.
I agree, Potsherd. I’d even say that the phoney battle between J-Street and AIPAC is further proof of failure.
The Israeli votership voted for peace when it voted for Rabin in 92 and for Ehud Barak in 99. The effect of the second intifadeh and the shelling of Sderot after the withdrawal from Gaza might preclude a repeat of those votes, but to say that they have demonstrated that they will never choose peace is to ignore history.
The Israeli votership voted for peace when it voted for Rabin in 92 and for Ehud Barak in 99
———————————————————–
Is that a promise that another Yigal Amir will not come along and turn back the hands of time on the peace-process™ after being motivated by Netanyaho’s rhetoric to do so?
I think J Street is right on generally, but in shifting the question solely to American Jews’ interests is the wrong tack.
J Street should be the progressive AIPAC, supportive of progressive Israel, not just advocating for “American Jews’ interests”.
Richard, that is exactly what J Street claims to be doing. Read the first quoted paragraph again.
Of course, we all disagree what a progressive Israel would look like. J Street advocates Jim Crow segregation. Most honest progressives advocate a single non-Zionist state for all citizens. Israel can not be Jewish state and still be progressive.
Richard, there’s no need for duplication of efforts. AIPAC is already handling the espionage, document stealing and bribing. J Street will handle different concerns.
“Honest progressives” then are advocating for war, and regime change.
I don’t know many honest progressives that do that.
You don’t know many honest progressives, period. Least of all yourself, Witty. Take your browbeating elsewhere, here you only look like a fool for putting words in people’s mouths.
“Oren has passed up an important opportunity to speak up for Palestinian human rights”
I think you mean Jeremy Ben-Ami of J Street has. No?
Is any of this really good for America or Americans? Since most Americans are not Jews, I fail to see how the passage below can be viewed in a positive light, and my guess is that the Israeli and American Jewish groups involved wouldn’t even consider the views of most Americans. When American identity is up for grabs, I’m not very concerned about the integrity of the Jewish identity in America, Israel or anywhere else.
“We too have our own serious concerns over the policies of the present Israeli government and its impact not just on Israel’s interests but on our interests as Americans and as American Jews. As Jews who care about Israel, we fear that, on Israel’s present path, we will see our shared dream of a Jewish, democratic home in the state of Israel slip through our fingers.
As Americans, we worry about the impact of Israeli policies on vital US interests in the Middle East and around the world.
Finally, as American Jews, we worry that the health and vitality of our community will be deeply affected by what happens in the region, how the world perceives Israel and by how our community here at home deals with increasingly complex conversations around Israel.”
Thank you Todd.
May I repeat this for emphasis:
“As Americans, we worry about the impact of Israeli policies on vital US interests in the Middle East and around the world.”
and raise you:
“As Americans, we worry about the impact of Israeli policies and the influence of American Jews vis a vis Israel, on American domestic policies and institutions. “
“When American identity is up for grabs,”
Gosh, things just don’t look like Norman Rockwell paintings anymore, do they?
Damn this fracturing of the cohesive “American identity”
As much as you carry on about your Jewish identity, you have to realize that the rest of us have identities that we can’t escape, and even like. Your comment about Norman Rockwell paintings is cute, but it does sidestep the fact that America has always been a majority Western and Gentile nation, and that throwing everything up for grabs does step on quite a few toes.
damn the attitude that thinks the “American identity” is of no value.
somebody needs to invent the American equivalent of ‘antisemitism.’ The attitude that Mooser displayed, above, that “American identity” is of trivial import but that American JEWISH identity should be protected, is disgusting.
Nice catch, folks. As I’ve been saying, the problem is more than Zionism, it’s hostility to gentiles and our cultures, whether such hostilty takes the form of bombs or snide remarks.
No, things look more like Madoff’s accounting books.
@ Psychopathic god
“damn the attitude that thinks the “American identity” is of no value.
somebody needs to invent the American equivalent of ‘antisemitism.’ The attitude that Mooser displayed, above, that “American identity” is of trivial import but that American JEWISH identity should be protected, is disgusting.”
I agree 100% PG.
Todd, he may quip about seeing “American identity up to grabs”–it does actually sound slightly melodramatic– but there he doesn’t even whisper that Jewish American identity should be protected. As far as I can tell. If I miss something, show me.
this was originally: but there is not even a whisper …
BJS: please do finish your changes, or let it as it is. (soliloquy)
this was originally: but there is not even a whisper …
BJS: please do finish your changes, or leave it as it is. (soliloquy)
I take this as worrying about the Jewish identity in America:
“Finally, as American Jews, we worry that the health and vitality of our community will be deeply affected by what happens in the region, how the world perceives Israel and by how our community here at home deals with increasingly complex conversations around Israel .”
Otherwise, Mooser is always going on about being Jewish.
Why would you claim it is melodramatic to state that the American identity is up for grabs? Seriously, have you spent any time in the United States? I don’t mean that in a cutting way, but every effort from above is being made to change the nation demographically and culturally. We are constantly being informed from above of what the “new America” will look like, and it doesn’t resemble traditional America. Saying that the American identity has been thrown up for grabs is putting it lightly. Apparently for many in positions of influence it is a done deal that the Amercan identity will change.
What is the American identity, Todd? I had a rather futile exchange on Patrick Lang’s list about French identity. Different customs? Different food? Different ways to look at the world from their specific history?
But yes, I have been to the States. I traveled the country several times extensively. Quite possibly the first time I was there, the same thing happened when I was the first time in England, France, Spain, Greece, or elsewhere had the deepest impact. The more you visit or live somewhere the more the differences fade. The first time I started in Seattle moving South to the Mexican border and West for several month. I was absolutely overwhelmed by the enormous friendliness, that didn’t seem feigned as over here, at the same time (it’s changing) but attentive and real from the diverse people working in shops and all kind of other service centers I encountered. It made me understand what Germans meant when they talked about the service desert Germany at the time.
But obviously America is a big country, and you tend to meet people that share your general outlook. I met a lot of people that warned me not to visit certain parts of town without teargas, but I guess from their point of view I was lucky. Nothing negative ever happened to me. … But I met a fair slice of crazies, Elvis is still alive, but just as many highly interesting individuals; some from my perspective stupid people, a lot of down and outs on one side on the other hand people from my perspective overly obsessed e.g. in LA about what specific part of town you had to make it into. Big country, many, many different people, but an overall attentiveness, curiosity and friendliness.
Leander, there have been regional differences from America’s beginning, but until very recently, the vast majority of the population was of western European extraction, and largely accepted the core Anglo-British and Protestant culture of the founders. Niether is not the case now. I looked at a 2010 census map of the United States this morning, and quite a few states were listed as having 1/4 of the population speaking a language other than English, and several had figures of 1/3 or slightly higher–and I can tell you that this isn’t because the public schools in those states have made breakthroughs in bilingual education. That’s real, and probably lasting change. I don’t know for sure how the immigration situation will work out, but I can easily see how major problems can be the result. At the very least, the identity of the nation will change without popular approval.
Do you believe that there is a German identity? I’ve known Germans who claim that anyone can be a German, and I’ve also known Germans from Niedersachsen who would rather give Bayern to Austria. Do you believe that Turks or Nigerians can ever truly be Germans, or do you believe that Germans have to embrace tolerance and just accept that other people with other identities will live in Germany in large numbers? Does it matter to you?
I’ve heard many Europeans complain about what they viewed as the forced friendliness of Americans, and also complain about the poor service and coldness of people at home. From my experience, the Scandinavian countries are the worst that I’ve visited in western Europe when it comes to bad attitudes towards travellers, but that has more to do with the union mentality of many Scandinavian workers than any sort of hostility towards foreigners, in my opinion.
Germany was different for me. People usually opened up when I tried to speak German. Actually, I had hoped to improve my spoken German, but most people just wanted to practice English–maybe my conversational German was just too bad to bother with? I think many Germans beat themselves up too much about being too stiff and reserved. It’s not a bad thing. Germans do tend to be more blunt than most Americans, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing, either.
I’m not sure what areas you went to that you were advised to avoid, but crime is a real problem in many areas. There are definitely places where you don’t have to look very hard to find trouble.
Postherd,
I don’t have dual citizenship, but I do have a Pakistani ID card that exempts me from getting a visa to visit and I don’t have to travel with my passport. Its conveniant. Getting it made was a little rought though. I had to produce my parents original birth certificates, and it took them a while to authenticate them.
Anyway, this little ID card lists my address in the US and my “permanent” address in pAkistan as well. It also says I can vote unhidered in any elections in Pakistan and that I’m not required to produce any other proof.
I haven’t voted. I almost did once, though. I felt I was betraying my alliegence as a citizen to the US. So I left before casting my vote.
I don’t know why I adressed this to postherd. Probavly because everytime I reas the name “psychopathic god” I cringe. But….
W H Auden September 1 1939
PG, thanks for the clarification. It does humanize your handle.
“Finally, as American Jews, we worry that the health and vitality of our community will be deeply affected by what happens in the region, how the world perceives Israel and by how our community here at home deals with increasingly complex conversations around Israel.”
I think that this is not a problem for Israeli Zionists, it is the goal. One has only to look historically at the activity of those plying Zionist aims in other countries to see how far they are willing to go to despoil the relationship we have had in other countries to “fill the ranks.”
The tension is always there, between what allegiance is given to Israel in comparison to the home country. I think J Streets naming the issue brings it into the opem, without the direct reference to this being the stated goal. The tension is there in the sense that Israel knows which side its bread is buttered on, so it does not want to slay the cash cow – but it does not want to deny its foundational aim – it wants to be as repugnant as feasible to lay a shadow over the Jewish community, but it does not want to cut its nose off to spite its face. However, the ship US is definitely sinking, and that is an admixture of not only neocon activity but an accumulation of activity over the years.
Also, this is going to be a test of what J Streets design really is supposed to be. Now, even though a work like Mearsheimer and Walt’s The Israel Lobby refuse to tread where the question of “loyalty” is concerned (dual or singular), you have to be blind not to see the hints to accusations of such mounting – just look at some of the posts here. The real question regarding J Street is simply is it just another sophisticated good cop bad cop scenario, or is it truly alarmed at what Israel is doing to make the Jewish community look bad in the USA?
The very people who are “sinking the ship US,” (Dennis Ross, chair of JPPPI inter alia) are prepared to leap from the lifeboats to the deck of the rescuer/successor vessel of the zionist technic, China:
link to 74.125.93.132
I observe that reflects their little contact with Jews. It will change.
This statement is absurd. I worked in China 6 months and remain in contact with many of them to this day. Many of them are quite willing to volunteer their belief that Jews control the world banking system and they also control the media in most of the West. This infiltration of the levers of power explain the incredible success of Israel. These views if held by a westerner would most definitely be labeled antisemitic. That is just how these people view the rest of the world. But on the other hand these Chinese seem to have no personal animosity against Jews and are happy to collaborate with Israel.
Is J Street a false antithetical PR firm, or is it truly in opposition? (short form)