in a grim mood. Today’s Isabel Kershner piece about the militant blindness inside Israel is echoed by Tom Segev’s piece attacking Avi Shlaim in the forthcoming NY Review of Books. Both pieces are written by Israelis, for American publications, and from inside the Zionist perspective: a vision Segev holds on to, of a majority Jewish democracy in historical Palestine. Nostalgic for the good old rebel days of the New Historians, before the New Anti-Zionists, Segev suggests that the Palestinians should fold into Jordan, so that Israelis don’t have to deal with a non-Jewish majority; and he has little to say about the incredible violence Israel has unleashed to obtain the managed situation that he seems to abide.
I’m criticized by some commenters for being inside the Jewish perspective. And I am that. I fear for my religious group. There is such indifference, and such a claim, alive in American publications, on a liberation story that is totally out of touch with reality. Let my people grow, before it’s too late…
“Let my people grow, before it’s too late…”
Then they could be just like you. It must be difficult being such a great sage.
It’s one thing to be within the Jewish perspective (and totally legitimate and necessary and useful), but to fear for “my religious group” at this point in time is a bit nonsensical, considering which ‘group’ is getting pummeled–literally. I feel like you are saying half of it wrong.
Just for reference, we are in the middle of the one year anniversary of the Hamas attack on southern Israel, that preceded the attack on Gaza.
You are despicable
An odd response to aggression on civilians.
It was a comment really to Adam’s post, that somehow got posted in this thread. Adam only mentioned the Israeli attack, but not the Hamas one.
The only possible response to a liar.
Well, potsherd, he’s got to get in that last bit of propaganda in to justify all that burning of children’s flesh off the bone before the holidays. Otherwise, Witty doesn’t earn his Christmas bonus!
I don’t seem to recall you commemorating the Nov 4th attack on Gaza by Israel last month.
My opinion of you just gets lower each time you post. The only difference between you and the likes of Julian, is that you kid yourself into thinking you’re being even-handed. You’re so eager to point out the mistakes and flaws of Palestinians (of which there are many) but can only half-heartedly condemn the more numerous and serious Israeli transgressions. You claim to see beyond petty national and racial distinctions, but then insist on separating the Israel/Palestine area into two states on the basis of race. Finally, you’re a master of obfuscation, especially when your comments are challenged.
THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. The Israelis attacked Gaza and broke the truce on Nov 4, 2008. They killed six Palestinians. The Israelis broke the truce first. There were no, repeat NO, rocket attacks into Israel for four months previous.
Channel 4 – London
Who Broke The Cease Fire – Hamas or Israel 2008
Mark Regev admits Hamas didn’t fire any rockets before Israel broke the cease fire in November.
link to youtube.com
“Both sides stated that they wanted to return to an atmosphere of calm”.
Which they did relatively.
The November 4 incident remains vague and indecisive, as the original agreement remained vague allowing for testing, each believing what they want to believe, and vociferously.
The December 20′s escalations from shelling desert, to shelling Sderot, to shelling Ashkelon, to shelling Beersheba (all before any Israeli military response), remains clear.
It is IMPOSSIBLE for a humanist to conclude that the Israeli military response was only an aggression, and not also a defense. That leaves the possibility of evaluating the response as excess, but NOT the gullible assertion that Gaza was only attacked.
Why begin your time-line from December 20? Maybe because it’s convenient for your argument? Why not from November 4th? Why not from December 28th?
It’s interesting how everything becomes vague when Israel is at fault.
Richard: “Excess?” 1400 dead, more than 300 of them children. “Excess?”
So, witty would like the prisoners of a concetration camp to just sit and wait for their fate to be handed to them. Those residents of askelon went about their lives just fine, I recall. though perhaps, we could have more sympathy for the poor ‘traumatized” residents of ashdod (what was the name again/ was it najd?) were they not sitting pretty on top of the rabble of houses from which many gaza residents were expelled and terrorized into leaving, and wishing nothing but ill to the descendents of the refugees they disspossed.
Witty is like the rich guy complaining that the sight those poor beggars freezing out in the streets is ruining his enjoyment of a fancy meal. really – how could they!
hamas did what the warsaw ghetto residents did – fight back to let the world know the inmates exist. the real terrorists are the storm troopers who murder children women and civilians and those who sat in their lawn chairs to better enjoy the spectacle of an unfolding atrocity. Witty urges the storm trooper s and brown shirts on – as best he can – by being an enabler. According to witty camp leaders are terrorists because the storm troopers must act to defend the colonialists who feel threatened, just knowing that the famished camp residents still haven’t been exterminated.
Witty – I have news for you – if israelis could – a majority would love to get rid of those pesky palestinians – however the deed is done. if only the world didn’t get in the way. your so-called homeland of zealots is a spiritually very ugly place, slowly turning uglier by the day. keep defending it and your own soul will become as twisted as theirs.
maybe you should go to gaza yourself and personally beg forgiveness from the residents – including hamas? it’s never too late for redemption.
those who sat in their lawn chairs to better enjoy the spectacle of an unfolding atrocity.
Hard to forget. The war tourism was among a series of peculiar things to witness regarding Israel’s soul during the war.
He knows, but the truth makes Israel look bad, so he repeats the lie.
You are a totally worthless liar Witty, and you were not just recently reduced to this, it is your forte.
And you gullible people are amazingly skilled at rationalization to conclude that Hamas was not a willing and intentional escalator of aggression.
Tragic.
I’m sorry Witty but the fact remains that Hamas abided by the truce.
They halted the rocket fire, arrested people for daring to fire rockets into Israel, and kept up their part of the agreement.
Israel on the other hand killed and wounded dozens of Palestinian farmers and fishermen, did nothing to ease the blockade of Gaza, and did began launching unprovoked airstrikes on the Gaza strip.
For you to even try to say that Hamas is responsible for breaking the cease fire is just ludicrous.
Hamas (whatever you think of them) has a history of abiding to ceasefires while Israel has a history of breaking them.
Those are the facts, deal with them.
“unprovoked airstrikes on the Gaza strip”.
You live in an alternate universe.
There was no cease-fire in place legally during the period when Hamas resumed shelling southern Israel after the mutually agreed restoration of the cease-fire, so “breaking the cease fire” is a skew term.
What Hamas did was to reinitiate a state of war from a state of lull. For that, they are responsible clearly. To hold them entirely not responsible for that idiotic judgement is to enable very self-destructive behavior.
After the hopeful communication to Israeli and world civilians that Hamas WAS capable of self-discipline and then potentially reconciliation, the resumption of unilateral shelling escalating consistently and intentionally over 10 days, communicated that Hamas had no intention of reconciling, that they were controlled by hotheads, and NOT by those most concerned and responsible for the Gazan Palestinians.
Sorry for that truth, of what was communicated. You should get your head out of the sand. The logic of supporting idiocy because it is solidarity, is flawed.
Resorting to lies now Richard? Seriously, do you even believe the crap that comes out of your mouth?
Israel was killing Palestinians in the Gaza strip all through the truce even before they began unprovoked air strikes on November 4th.
What Hamas did was to reinitiate a state of war from a state of lull.
So let me get this straight Richard… Israel launches airstrikes on the Gaza strip killing members of Hamas, Hamas responds by launching ineffective rockets into Israel where nobody dies. Yet for some reason according to your ridiculous logic, Hamas is responsible for breaking the lull in fighting?
Wtf?
Your also not taking into consideration the dozens of dead and wounded Palestinians that had been killed prior to Israels airstike on November 4th. Israel had violated the cease fire several times prior to this, yet Hamas constrained itself.
Finally, Israel never did anything to lift the siege on Gaza, which was a condition of the ceasefire.
Israel broke the cease fire Richard, get over it.
Sorry for that truth, of what was communicated. You should get your head out of the sand. The logic of supporting idiocy because it is solidarity, is flawed.
You should tell yourself that buddy. Your the one apologizing for crimes against humanity not me.
So long as you stick to your interpretation, you will be speaking skew to the common (and accurate) understanding of the escalation of the conflict from skirmish to war.
Of course, Witty ignores the fact that Israel planned the the Gaza offensive months prior to end of the ceasefire, and in fact, as part of its planned offensive it was decided to strike the graduation of police cadets as the first action of that offensive. Israel has admitted that it discussed this attack on the cadet graduation back in the summer when Hamas was strictly observing the ceasefire.
The Gaza attack was not a “response”, it was a planned act of aggression against the civilian population of Gaza. (And according to international law, police officers are protected civilians, not military.)
Witty also ignores the Gaza blockade. When it is brought to his attention, he defends it as an act of war (an act of war against an entire population, a point he glosses over, though he flies into hysterics at the thought of something one tenth as onerous being applied against Israel). But then who fired first in late 2008 is beside the point.
In a way, the very fact that Israel is guilty of war crimes and oppression in so many different ways is an advantage–they are constantly provoking the Palestinians in innumerable ways and when any of them react, it gives the Israelis an excuse to kill even more. And then Witty and other liars will come along and argue that anyone who doesn’t see that the Palestinians started it all is just being foolish. It doesn’t matter how many Palestinians suffer or how many die–by definition, there is no act of violence committed until it is committed against an Israeli.
Israel long planned its attack on Gaza while it promised to ease up on its siege of Gaza, but never did; it found its pretext to set off its turkey shoot in November of ’08.
An excellent depiction of Palestinian Holocaust in progress – carried out by the same people for whom the Nazi Holocaust has become a religion – protected by Christian-majority countries such as the US, Canada, Britain, France, Germany, Austria and Australia. The book must be viewed along with Sever Plocker’s column in Israeli daily Y-Net, titled “Stalin’s Jews” – “We mustn’t forget that some of the greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish”…….
link to rehmat1.wordpress.com
you are like a broken Nazi record.
No, he isn’t. That is precisely what Sever Plocker reported in Ynet News:
I don’t think you can blame the Jews for the Communist atrocities. Communism is a different religion.
MRW please don’t be naive. Steven Plocker is an ultra right wing zionist who hates the left wing Jews as much as he hates the Palestinians. This Genrick Yagoda story is one that these nuts have been using to try to tarnish the socialist leaning Zionists for decades. The Stern Gang, Irgun and their ilk are the ones that first started massacring Palestinians and the left-wing Zionists tried to isolate them politically for doing so. I really have trouble getting a focus on who Yagoda was but he was likely a minor figure. But if you try a net search on him you will encounter large numbers of references to Storm Front and other neo-nazis. See, Yogada is the poster boy for those who spread the “Jewish Bolshevism” myth. This is not the first time that real nazis and right wing zionists have collaborated to defeat their common enemy.
Syvanen, what does Genrikh Yagoda have to do with Palestinians? I was answering yonira. And as I surmise from your comment that bringing up Jewish Bolshevism is apparently mythical, or bordering on some kind of heresy, I direct you to Gabriel Kolko’s article “Israel: Mythologizing a 20th Century Accident.”
Jews in Russia, then and now, are not united by their Jewishness the way they are in the US. They are united by their towns or villages: geography. Or their politics. To speak of Jews in 1905 or 1906 St. Petersburg was tantamount to discussing Upper Westsiders or Upper Eastsiders or Progessives or what have you. The fact that stormfront or whatever those groups are called latched on this and have turned it to their use is another matter. My relatives diaries — extensive — from the first 17 years of the 20th C in St. Petersburg discuss Jews, Russian Orthodox, and theosophists involved in every manner of political activity, and it did not have the connotation that drives certain people on this board crazy about “Jewish Bolshevism.” I dont give a shit what white supremacists do with it; they probably eat McDonald hamburgers as well. And when I was in Russia before it broke up, it was discussed as you would Kerensky … AND by the Jewish guys I was traveling with. So, excuse me if I dont have that sensitivity.
Jews were a very disproportionate part of the early Communist leadership. Check out the history. The first law passed by the first red “congress” was a law against anti-semitism. Check out the history of the Cheka. School yourself before talking about the secular religion of Communism without knowing the Communist-implemented facts on the ground during the time in question.
RE: “Syvanen, what does Genrikh Yagoda have to do with Palestinians?”
A lot more in terms of mindset and realized power, than the question, “What do the Palestinians have to do with the Shoah?”
Yonira, some are like a broken Nazi record, but you dance to the tune kucker.
I hope that you acknowledge the balance that is reported in the New York Times, and withhold from cheap shots at them.
I don’t expect Egypt to let the westerners participate in the Gaza demonstration, so I expect that you will be hanging out with the converted if you go to Egypt.
The Kirschner report describes the consciousness of Israelis accurately from what I’ve heard, basically that they’ve lost patience with dissent.
There is still the conflict between the majority of Israelis that would accept a moderate Israel, and the expansionists, but the majority of the outline of what would result politically is settled.
I don’t know if its cynical or an accurate recognition of the reality.
I am heartened by your last comment “Let my people grow…”
It contrasts with your periodic flirtation with anti-Zionism, implying “let my people dissolve”.
Anti-Zionism is not about ‘letting my people dissolve’. There is no such thing as a Zionist people. While some, including Jews, disagree that there is such thing as a Jewish people, as opposed to an Israeli people, I can buy into the notion. However, Phil has NEVER called for the Jewish people to ‘be dissolved’. You are erroneously conflating Judaism and Zionism (if they are the same, why would there be two separate words to describe it?) and falsely implying that Phil is in favor of the dissolution of the Jewish people.
Equating Zionism with Judaism? Therefore, you, Witty, are stating that Judaism approves ethnic cleansing, mass murders of innocent civilians in order to instill terror in the indigenous people of Palestine to get them to leave the land so that foreign Jews can enjoy it, ordering men, women and children out of their homes gunning them down against a wall as the Zionist terrorists did at Deir Yassin? You’re claiming religious intolerance (certainly a Zionist value) as a Jewish value?
It’s the last piece falling into place.
First the Israeli Right persuades the rest of the country that no, it’s not all about expansionism and land grabbing and that of course Israel would negotiate the return of the occupied territories “if only” X or Y or Z would happen…. (E.g., the P’s recognized Israel, and then if only terrorism would stop, and then if only they had a “partner for peace,” and then if only the P’s would recognize Israel as the “jewish” state,” and then on and on, ad infinitum.)
In essence, the persuasion problem convincing *themselves* that no, they don’t *really* want to be stealing land, but that there’s some invisible, inarticulable reason why they couldn’t just get the hell out instead….
So the settlements spring up like mushrooms after a Fall rain, and are expanded all the time, and enough time is gained so that as it’s become ever more apparent that the Israelis can never truly their settlement, and that as a result there can never be a peace agreement based on same, to the most moderate or even most liberal Israeli even there’s only one solution: They simply can’t break ranks and blame the settlers fully, that would mean civil war.
And so in some way shape or form the Palestinians simply have to go away. Of course there’s nothing any longer that they can agree that Israel would tolerate, hence their positions mean nothing any longer. It’s their very *existence* now that is the obstacle to peace, and so it is that very continued existence that stirs ever increasing anger. If only they’d just go the hell away everything would be fine, but no, they just sit there, existing, and not accepting their fate of just disappearing, and after awhile if they are going to be so damned intransigent, well then the use of whatever force is more and more approved of.
The end game is in sight, forcible expulsion, with no real moral constraint coming anymore from any Israeli blanching at same, but instead if at all at merely what reaction such an expulsion might provoke against Israel from others.
All it needs is more time then; as the U.S. makes ever more clear that even with an Obama there is virtually nothing Israel can do that diminishes the support the U.S. gives to it, any worries about the international reaction to a forcible expulsion become ever diminishing too, just as did the internal Israeli qualms at using ever more force.
Only a matter of time: All the mechanics and even most importantly all the moral qualms have been put into place.
Precisely Sin Nombre.
The liberal Zionists claim that its the “Settlers” that are making things difficult, yet the liberal Zionists proposes nothing in the way of stopping them.
We propose at least a halt to settlement construction, the liberal zionist says “we cant do that… its to harsh!”
The liberal zionist then argues that we cannot have infighting amongst ourselves as it will lead to civil war.
And this is very true. The risk for civil war is greater.
Unfortunately, the settlers are in the process of stealing Palestinian land and doing so with the assistance of the Israeli government and the Israeli military, which are incidentally institutions that are full of “liberal Zionists.”
This will unfortunately lead us to a situation in which the liberal Zionist will have to choose between supporting the growing right wing elements within his own society or the human rights of the Palestinians.
All evidence til this day and the ramblings of liberal Zionists unfortunately suggest that they will choose to support the right wing settlers and their movements and will thus become explicit in whatever “final solution” type deal the state of Israel decides to embark on when the Palestinian problem simply becomes “unbearable” to their vision for a purely Jewish state.
Have a good time in Egypt Phil, maybe you can see the Pyramids.
What religious group is this that you fear for? The Hasidim?Atheists? Americans? Liberals? Human beings? Who are “your” people?
I am actually fascinated by the developments here. Egypt has taken Medea Benjamin’s whining and the indignation of thousands of Weissoholocs as being a personal insult to Arab dignity. No shit? I guess maybe there IS such thing as an honor culture after all!
But what will happen when Phil and Alice Walker have their Hamas sponsored vacation ruined? Will they go on hunger strikes? Will they become suicide bombers? Will they “storm the border”? I just cannot wait!!
I love it how assholes like you, who bought hook, line and sinker that there were WMDs in Iraq, and voted for and supported politicians that got scads of your former comrades in arms killed for nothing will come on here and mock people for refusing to be as god-awful stupid as you are, OJ.
Chaos top #4
1 .Judenreich
2. Warsaw Ghetto
3. WMDs in Iraq
4. Yellow cake Uranium
You need some new material
Is that your pathetic response to Chaos Yonira?
what was there to respond to James? What did he say of substance? It was less of a response and more just pure mocking of him.
You have to understand, Mr. Bradley. Yonira’s one of those Zionists who has no useful skills other than attacking other people senselessly. Think of her as the blogging equivalent of the IDF.
The IDF is many things, but ineffective is not one of them.
Very nice retort. I like to think of you as having performed a series of decapitation operations on the hydra=headed Chaos.
Right, and in an unfailing display of abject ignorance, OJ, you seem to have forgotten that every attempt to decapitate the hydra only made it exponentially deadlier.
God, I really feel guilty about matching wits with the likes of you people. It’s almost unsportsmanlike of myself.
Thanks to American dollars, weapons, and expertise. Take them away, and little David Hezbollah will wipe up the floor with the IDF leftover.
OJ,
I am sure they’ll blame it on Israel and the vast conspiracy which controls to ME.
Other than that, it will be a whole lot of smoke.
day after day you show us how awful, stupid, fascists you are! Zionism is pure racism.
I never for a minute believed that there were WMDs in Irag and I oppose(d) the Iraq War for a lot of other good reasons–I never voted for a Bush.
Since I could vote it has been Clinton/Gore/abstain/Obama.
But nice try. And what the hell does this have to do with upcoming spectacle of a ruined “cause” vacation for wealthy Americans?
OhioJoes – it took 30 years or so (probably longer than you’ve been alive) for me to get over all the “Exodus” etc myth, and see the basic harsh reality underlying the Zionist cause. That’s because I’ve been there, and seen and felt the ugly face behind the constant pro-Israeli propaganda.
Grow up.
Me grow up?
link to coconutstudio.com
That’s low OJ, even for you.
I’m surprised that you didn’t believe the WMD’s existed. You sound so much like a typical Angry American, who blindly believes anything the right tells him/her.
I’m intrigued by what leads you to support Israel and (judging by your posts), hate Arabs.
Sorry OJ you are full of crap. We know what you believe in.
great argument syvanen, you know what, you are double full of crap so that makes OJs comments valid.
yonira shut up your filth.
the Gaza freedom marche participants already made so many achievements, one of them they sent a clear message to the absolute evil, which is people from all over the world knows how fascist you are, and that they will drop dow the Zionism sooner or later.
Just right in French, pal, you sound like a hysterical waiter in English!
you run out of arguments so you attack personally, i will be called paedophile? so classical cheap technique by the hasbara council
Ah yes, the man who resorts to “hasbara” is not taking cheap ad hominem shots.
I never called anyone a pedophile, you will note, I suggested the person in this photo was opening himself to such accusations.
link to coconutstudio.com
Out of arguments eh? What arguments are you making, other than, of course, “Jews suck”?
i m not talking cheap Hasbara man, i was just commenting your Hasbara fellow Yonira who was mocking the brave participants of the Gaza freedom march.
- Your accusations are not openned in the right place, i call this personal attacks and we are here to talk about the politics of the absolute evil ‘Nazreal’, we don’t ask you to tell us who you fuck!
- I think you better get some glasses and re-read my comments to your fellow Hasbara Yonira.
- I never said Jews suck, where did you read this? again the victimisation game? Is it part of the Zionism teachings?
I actually cannot understand what you are saying. It simply does not make sense in English.
free free Palestine, do you understand this?
It’s missing an object–it should be “free Palestine of Arabs!”
can you show me what you are talking about aparisian? you make lots of accusations, but that’s about it. If there is a language barrier here, i am sure we can work our way through it.
Great, so now the ex-Navy turncoat is teaming up with the frigid Wicked Bitch of the West to openly advocate for ethnic cleansing. Or genocide, maybe? I suppose that depends on how much white phosphorous they intend to use this time around.
Turncoat? Listen chaos, Your contempt for American sevicemen is unabated. I thought you guys liked sailor men?
Don’t use the rest of the service as your personal human shields, OJ. I’m not disgusted with them — only traitors like you who sell out your fellow men and women in uniform for your thirty pieces of silver.
How’s that trip to Israel coming along, OJ? Still on for March?
Still obsessed with my comings and goings? Yes, LOT and Czech have the best prices– if we avoid the Easter/Passover week the prices look good. Still interested?
Its your SHORTcomings I can’t help noticing, OJ, because you keep beating me over the head with them. Incidentally? Trying to twist what I said into some sort of absurd anti-Semitism accusation isn’t really all that effective when you use homophobic epithets in the same breath.
Well, have fun visiting the country you’ve actually been pledging allegiance to all this time. You’ll have to excuse me, I’ll be busy attending an anti-war rally, trying to get our men and women home so that they can stop getting killed for lies and can go back to what they want to do — actually protecting the United States, instead of going off to jaunts at the behest of Tel Aviv. You know, like you.
Homophobic? I still like Hitchens line about this: It’s a strange word since no one in their right mind is afraid of gays.
Attending an anti-war rally? Are you sure? If you visited Israel you might learn something about it. And, on the plane over, I could teach you a thing or two about the US military.
I’m with you about bringing home our troops, but you’d be surprised by how many seem to want to be overseas.
Still, you know best.
Speaking of which, VERY good doc on tv today about 1973 War
link to military.discovery.com
Yeah well, you’d be surprised at how many US military veterans are at those anti-war rallies I attend. But of course, you don’t actually affiliate with anyone who gets their hands dirty, do you? Not if you were posted somewhere cushy, like Israel.
You’re a traitor to the United States, plain and simple. I, for one, am relieved that you are no longer in the armed services. The last thing we need are people like you corrupting the US first line of defense from the inside.
Ho! The Discovery Channel, yes. Bringers of such quality programming as:
link to dsc.discovery.com
Can you actually manage to do or say anything without the stench of fraud clinging to you?
Traitor! Traitor! Traitor! It’s a very unfortunate default setting you have their, Chaos.
On a brighter note, here’s a little glimpse of Chaos in a Muslim society . . .
link to pridetb.homestead.com
OJ decides to engage in more homophobia and then decides he wants to do some Muslim-bashing too.
When you put the interests of a foreign nation ahead of your own country, then, be definition, you are a traitor. Being traitorous however, is justified if your side has the moral high ground. It just so happens, that yours doesn’t.
I think he was trying to illustrate how Chaos, as a homosexual, would be treated in Iran.
OJ,
I understand your frustration w/ ppl like Chaos, you can repeat something a hundred times, but still he continues w/ the same accusations. No need to call him a faggot though, it just feeds his victim complex.
Actually no–a traitor is someone who does that in time of war. In peacetime it’s called espionage. In any event, Chaos thinks the ongoing joint Mediterranean task force I worked with is treasonous. There’s good news on that front too, by the way:
link to turkishnavy.blogspot.com
His problem is a lot bigger than just me. He really ought to stick to “second life.”
Thanks Yonira–it really is frustrating, especially since I have repeatedly offered olive branches and slight bits of humor to defuse him. Faggot is unfair, and it isn’t le mot juste anyway–how about humorless old maid?
ohiojoes, come to see me asshole and i will hang you the same way. You are homophobic, Islamophobic, racist and dirty cunt.
Yonira,
You mean how he called Chaos a ‘faggot’? And how is Iran relevant to the discussion on Palestine?
OJ,
A traitor is someone who commits treason, which does not necessarily occur solely at times of war.
Gimme your address and I’ll be there! I love a good challenge!
But no need to hang me, Laval, your abuse of the English language is torture enough!
:)
humorless old maid works for me. Cunt is a little overboard though, oh wait sorry, someone just called you that.
How precious are our progressive friends.
Well, just don’t question their patriotism! It’s the people who actually served in the military who are the true traitors!
Not to mention baby-killers . . .
My english is good enough to call you what you are! Asshole – Racist – Homophobic – Islamophobic and you support the Nazi politics of Nazreal.
Sa putain de mère la salope à quatre pattes qui suce sa race!
OK?
and you speak french like a french neonazi
Funny–I learned that expression from a Beur!
you know les beurs are like everyone else, some are good and some are bad. But for a racist like you they are all bad i assume.
Btw guys: beur means french Arab.
Not at all. I prefer them to “Franco-French” on many occasions.
But we agree–people are mostly the same–some good, some bad.
It’s by their actions we should judge them.
and how do you prefer calling the american jews and arabs?
Uh oh–you lost me. Essayez en francais, peut-etre?
oh silly you!
Ok i will try again you said you call them ‘Franco-french’, what do you mean? and how do you find your fellow americans from arabic origins?
Oh, I get it now Nazreal, that is real fucking clever. which one of you dipshits came up w/ that one?
Nazreal = Nazi israel how silly you are.
aparisian. As a good American I feel the need to help you learn some of ins and outs of the English language.
When someone says “I get it” it means its understood and there is no need to explain it to them again.
Repeat after me, “I get it”
Please if you have any questions about English I would be happy to help you on your journey.
good American are you joking? nope you are a good Zionist! And zionism is racism, can you repeat after me, “Zionism is racism”
Whatever OJ is, a soldier for the US he has never been. No self-respecting veteran talks like him that I’ve ever heard. And the likelihood that a veteran – much less one in active service – will find this blog so interesting for him to spend time in spewing vitriol, are nil. The psychology is all wrong, especially when coupled with poor verbal skills and the lack of knowledge of places and events. Chances are that armed forces service is a sort of a phantasy for him, a make-believe world where many armchair warriors are found. Chances are even better that he is a zionist of some sort, especially as he sounds like so many uncouth, ignorant commenters found in haaretz, Jpost and ynet talkbacks.
Not worth spending much time on.
Nice to see you’re paying attention Danaa! I’m not in “active service” (as you call it–the term is active duty)–I did two tours (that’s just under 8 years) and am now on inactive reserve. I told Chaos I was honorably discharged and he snickered for weeks about that (he thought, probably still thinks, that means they threw me out). He is the one with huge craters in his knowledge. I humored him a bit playing the dumb ‘merican (“gosh, what is the Lebanon? Ain’t never heard of that”) but it should be obvious that I know a thing or two about the Middle East.
Pray tell where my knowledge is lacking? I can tell the difference between Galil Druzi and Bekaa Druzi . . . Next thing you know you’ll be asking me questions about “pilot houses” like Chaos.
But there’s no winning with you types, Danaa. Either I’m a genocidal Zionist Christian fundamentalist stooge, or I’m a pathological liar. Do you want my service papers? It wouldn’t help, I suppose, you’d have an explanation for that.
We all have our reasons for why we waste our time on this blog. What are yours?
I’ve never seen you post anything substantive, OJ. Insults, racist comments that should have gotten you banned (I’m starting to conclude Phil has decided only to ban anti-semites), and generally you just seem to hang around to start flamewars. Of course it’s also the fault of people who argue with you, but you’re a troll and that’s all you’ve ever been.
I don’t know why Phil has a comment section–he clearly can’t be bothered to do much about it when it goes off the rails.
(he thought, probably still thinks, that means they threw me out)
that was great OJ, actually made me LOL :)
“I’ve never seen you post anything substantive”
BEHOLD—-THE DONALD HAS SPOKEN!
OJ, unfortunately I remain unconvinced. As anonymous as we mostly are, our comments, over time, reveal much about our psychological/emotional make-up, sometimes on deeper level than in so-called* real life. Sometimes the revelations are obvious; at other times they are veiled, somewhere between or around the lines. The beauty of political blogs (and this one is a political one, mostly, even if we go along with Phil for a bit of jewish fun soul searching) is that they out phonies better than almost any other subject. I think it’s because political discourse on almost any subject that matters – and especially if it strays to matters tribal/ethnic/religious/racial, requires true passion (or else, people would be gossiping, watching football or bitchin’/kvetchin’ to the spouse/kids?). And the trouble with passion is that it can’t be faked. Cliff had it and i was perfectly content to tolerate the occasional excursions, because, for the most part, he’d return, more or less in one piece. Most commentators here have it, and their comment history makes it clear (yes, I know, sometimes it’s the passion of rage, but that’s the best kind). Even Witty, whose attempts at dispassion, stillborn as they are, reveal a degree of passion.
But you, dear OJ, have no passion (which may account for the lack of substance, as Donald above pointed out). I see no love of israel, attraction to “zion”, affinity for jews, messianism of the christian, or, even a Dershowitcz-like affliction of ferreting out hidden anti-semites. Which means only one thing: you are not who or what you say you are (ie, the details you chose to disclose) be it ex-military, or, non-jewish (the only two details I noted from you). Add to that the unfortunate tendency to crudity and the apparent lack of interest in debating anything, and bingo – what we get is what’s known as a troll. Who is basically someone whose agenda must remain hidden.
Now, my advise to you would be to change your persona, as this one is obviously not effective. I realize you hired yourself out only as level 1 hasbara, but don’t you want to progress? look at yonira – he (which mooser refuses to believe….) is young, but trying to figure out a way to level 2 (still ways to go, sorry). next time, please forget the military cover. It’s actually one that’s very hard to fake (of course, you could’ve sleep-walked through 8 years of service. why not? stranger things have happened). As is the heartland trailer-trash cover. Not smart, OJ**.
_____Footnotes:
* what’s real anyways? reality itself may be a conspiracy theory, but that’s another story.
** Tips offered for a price. profiles I did for friends on match.com and jdate, got floods of responses. One little problem there, of course…they had to then make good on those profiles , but hey – popularity is good, even if for a day. I’ll let you know my rates, if interested.
*** footnote for nothing: you asked about my motivation. pure passion, of course, for justice, rights and redemption, in that order, because each flows from the others. Now, match that, trailer-trolley.
For the record, Chaos called me trailer trash (because I live in Cincinnati?)–I never so identified. I played it up a teensy bit only after he baited me.
I almost wish, for the sake of rhetoric, I could now confess to being a paraplegic typing on a Apple 2/E in my parents’ basement. At least I would no longer be a “traitor.” But alas . . .
You went to a lot of trouble to disprove something that is readily verifiable. My real name is Joseph Martinez–I left the US Navy in 2005 (although my release date was Dec. 2004, for some reason) as LtJG officially on the USS San Jacinto (CG-56), although I had been on several other ships and had lately done other sorts of liaison work with the Israeli and Turkish navies.
On a brighter note, here’s a little glimpse of Chaos in a Muslim society
So basically, it’s like being gay in Texas or Oklahoma?
Oh, and OJ? You are trailer trash. You have a nice Hispanic last name but that first name is, quite conspicuously, white as the driven snow. So you were “officially” on the USS San Jacinto but you actually spent most of your time on foreign military vessels, huh? Serving the US with the same dedication as Rahm Emmanuel, hmm?
Chaos – don’t get pulled in by the “military” cover. It is still all wrong psychologically. The details our dear friend martinez supplied (name, rank, number) make me even more suspicious. not to mention the “work” he does for “Turkish and Israeli navies”. No self respecting veteran would be so suddenly revealing. It smells made-up and in all likelihood is.
The other wrong aspect is the non-jewishness, coupled with the smut-talk. OJ writes as so many who populate haaretz talkbacks. Chances are he (and it is a he, of that I’m certain) is a jew, high on ziocain, probably much older than he says he is, set off as hasbara troll to send discussions veering off on tangents, maybe with a special to take on US liberty allusions. But especially to set off people like Cliff, so they’ll blurt something that sounds “anti-semitic”. Basically, OJ is a decoy.
It’s better to ignore, unless entertaining (which he is not. this type has the most adolescent sense of humor). He is trying to get you into a juvenile discussion, which would then lower the overall level of these discussion threads. If you can find it in your heart, it’d be best to let him troll off to never never land by himself, dangling participles and all.
It’s plausible, Danaa, certainly but then again, the problem with the situation is, while OJ is clearly not trustworthy as a perspective of the US Navy, what he says doesn’t invalidate his story.
In other words, I’ve met people like him who are exactly what they say. Like it or not, there are still plenty of white people out there (I don’t care how much Hispanic blood is in his heritage, OJ for all intents and cultural purposes behaves as a white man) who operate exactly as OJ has. These are the G. Gordon Liddys and the John Boltons and the Glenn Becks of the US.
Thanks for promoting my website.
“ yonira shut up your filth”
aparisian, I don’t care how intense the arguement becomes, I cannot countenance addressing a woman in that fashion. No matter what her political beliefs, she can still be a good mother and faithful wife. Respect for womanhood demands that you observe some limits.
I don’t know, Mooser. Yonira doesn’t exactly act like a woman.
Heh, Mooser, aparisian speaks French.
Ohio Joe was pretty well unmasked over at Glenn Greenwald’s at Salon, his “military experience” a complete hoax, possibly consisting of having worked for a contractor.
And then he ran away, to come over here.
He’s pulled this one before, too! When challenged at Greenwald’s, he pulled a name out of a hat, and a couple of names of military stuff.
But anyway, the US
He’s pulled this one before, too! When challenged at Greenwald’s, he pulled a name out of a hat, and a couple of names of military stuff.
But anyway, the US
Anyway, it makes one thing clear to me. The US Navy had a 3% suicide attempt rate last year (I know, 3 out of each hundred, it’s pretty shocking. Google it) and apparently after two tours you are so screwy you end up like Ohio Joe here. I’ll stick to my kayak.
Truth justice and the American way!
When has the American way had anything to do with truth and justice?
As I recall, the first major war crime is starting an aggressive war without cause, ie defending against an attack. America is now involved in no fewer than 5 such wars, in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. Plus providing a general (Dayton) to train the security force to prop up Abbas’ ‘Vichy government’ in the West Bank.
Not quite the right time to advertise the ‘American way’.
Well, they do give US grunts an annual AVERAGE paycheck of $16,000 per year; what’s the alternative, working at the golden arches, flipping burgers?
Yonira – Israel claims it used white phosphorous bombs in Gaza to make smokescreens – is that what you’re referring to?
huh?
That’s what it was used for. was it illegal yes, was it stupid, yes, do I condone it, of course not.
White phosphorus (WP) is a flare- and smoke-producing agent and an incendiary agent that is made from a common allotrope of the chemical element phosphorus. The main utility of white phosphorus munitions is to create smokescreens to mask movement from the enemy, or to mask his fire. In contrast to other smoke-causing munitions, WP burns quickly causing an instant bank of smoke. As a result of this, WP munitions are very common—particularly as smoke grenades for infantry; loaded in defensive grenade dischargers on tanks and other armored vehicles; or as part of the ammunition allotment for artillery or mortars.
It was not used for smokescreens yonira, or to cover movements, it was used to burn the flesh off of Palestinians. That is because where it was dropped there were no troop movements at the time of its use. However yonira, I do not expect you to know this, and if you did know it you would lie. Your vacillation is famous here, one minute you are a humanitarian, the next the worst of Zionist shills. Repeating classic lines of MO mean nothing, just like the wall means nothing about defense, or like the “illegal building” of Palestinians has nothing to do with law, or the Murder of over 1400 people mostly innocents has nothing to do with self-defense, and you have nothing to do with your feigned concern for the Palestinians.
We showed you the pictures of the dead children, yonira. Are you still in denial? Or do you merely not care?
Israel can do no wrong Chaos.
I said it was wrong and illegal. WP can’t be used in populated areas. It should be outlawed all together but for some reason its still a legal munition.
I still don’t believe it was used as a weapon, but as a means of illumination and or smokescreen. But it was still used in a populated area and those who fired them or ordered their use needs to be investigated.
First of all it is illegal for use in populated civilian areas yonira, secondly you did not answer and dismissed the specific point of its use without military smoke screening needed and when there was no movement of Israeli troops. In other words, it was used specifically to burn the flesh off of men, women, and children – innocent civilians. Nice try yonira, no prize.
So all those scorched baby corpses and children in the photos we showed you, that was… what? Fake evidence?
Zionists Jews — forever denying any holocaust that didn’t happen to the Jews.
Being within a Jewish perspective is where Phil wants to be, and it makes sense. His voice is needed. Is there any doubt about Israeli apartheid corrupting Judaism? The anti-Semites killed thousands of Jews, hundreds of thousands, and finally when they used the modern industrial method they killed millions. But they killed the body. What the Israel Lobby does, and the political class of Israel, kills Judaism’s soul, and the killing is being done by Jews themselves.
It’s the great tragedy of our time, and people can’t see it happening, because of the pathology associated with unresolved trauma. Hurt by anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, some Jews survive emotionally by internalizing the aggression that terrifies them, and once it is inside them they can hardly wait to discharge that same aggression on victims of their own. They have been trauma-bonded to the aggression of the anti-Semites, and it is around the internalized aggression of the Nazis that they create their personalities, their professional careers and their world-view. How beyond irony it is, that Bibi is driven to bully unarmed people in the territories by the internalized aggression of anti-Semites…
For such people, Hitler truly won the war.
One hundred years ago, Judaism was a universal religion and Jewishness a universal culture, both of which interpreted God as operating in history to help those people who loved justice, and sought to create it.
Now fast-forward to today’s highly conflicted Judaism:
Religious nationalism, the illness that drives uncritical support for Israel, would have Jews worship the state of Israel, with its powerful army, its wonderful air force, its marvelous nuclear weapons, its torture chambers and its reported 8,000 innocent political prisoners. And its slow ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
That is the worship of evil. (Evil we may define as aggression in the form of governmental injustice, and deceit in the constant efforts to rationalize it.)
At last a very powerful group of Jews have succeeded in internalizing the very worst and most medieval characteristics of institutional Christianity. No wonder the worst of the US evangelicals adore them…Under the surface they are both about the same thing–brutality against the weak, the worship of power and profit, and permanent war against the Arabic-speaking and Muslim worlds.
good analysis Thank you PilgrimSoul
” Is there any doubt about Israeli apartheid corrupting Judaism?”
Is there any doubt that “the Jews” were a disparate group of monotheists, many of whom were not even aware of each other’s existence, who became “the Jews” when a Christian Europe culturally and religiously aggregated them as “the other” to their Christianity?
You can’t fight Zionism starting from the myths of the Zionists. Oh, and by the way, would you like to point out where Judaism ever advocated tolerance and equality toward anybody except Jews? Not individual Jews in the 19th or 20th century, but Judaism in its essential and foundation documents? In the actions of most of its adherents?
This is one of the most distressing things to me, people making up a fictional Judaism which became nobler and finer and more humanitarian as the Jews were persecuted and brutalised. Sorry, but that’s way too much of a recomendation of persecution and brutality for me. I think persecuting and brutalising, except for the most exceptional people (of which there are always a few) leads to persecuted and brutalised people.
And it makes me nervous when people assign these completely fictional attributes to Judaism. What happens when they don’t find them?
Why do people keep looking for things in Judaism they would require of no other religion? As I’ve said before, Judaism has come to be, now that there is little legal persecution, much like the Protestant and other denominations (at least in the US). That’s indictment enough.
good comments, Mooser. Obviously I agree, as – coming as I did from the other direction – I found american jews to be a rather foreign bunch, one I most certainly was not taught to know, much less respect (though, if they want to send money – hey it would be silly to refuse…for israelis, respect is one thing, money is another. No need to mix the two…). Israelis – the secular ones, at least – know absolutely zilch about what judaism means to different jewish people in other countries, and are totally ignorant about the culture of the denominations in the US. Worse yet, when they find themselves in the US, they mostly disdain any association with jewish organizations of any kind, sticking mostly to their own expat community. Yet, they talk as if they shared a religion! (I had a link on that somewhere. now if only I had time to find….it was a story on haaretz).
Keep pointing out that a few shared customs and familiarity with some old old history does not commonality makes. You play it from your direction, and I’ll beat my slightly different drums from mine.
. “I fear for my religious group.”
You think that because the people in Israel use the same religious trappings and rituals, they are part of the same religious group as you?
As laudable as your trip to Gaza is, you really need to spend more time in Israel. Get to know the people, and appreciate their religion. It’s bigoted to make assumptions about people just because their star has the same number of apex’s.
Look, this whole idea that somehow Judaism, unlike other religions, is a repository of humane tolerance and humanitarian values is gonna lead nowhere. It’s a very dangerous road for anti-Zionism to go down, and so phony it reeks. Seems to me it mainly functions as a gate-keeping concept to exclude non-Jews from judging Israel.
On the other hand, and it’s gotta be admitted, “Zionism is failing Judaism” is, as we often see in the posts here, the entry-gate to anti-Zionism, or at least the start of a realistic approach to Israel for many Jews.
But you gotta admire the almost existential chutzpah of it all, don’t you? I mean, who would have had the cojones (it’s hard, keeping up with the cojones) to work this syllogism: “Oy gevalt They’re murdering us, we’re about to disappear, we are so pitiful and weak, we have no defenses” therefore “Judaism is strong enough to be the underpinnings of a whole state and society!”
I guess “who much do you have to hate your own religion, to make it responsible for the actions of a colonial settler-state” is the real question. And I haven’t got any inkling, it mystifies me.