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Rep. Brian Baird to call for cutting US aid to Israel unless the blockade on Gaza is lifted
Posted in Israel/Palestine
brave man! god bless you !
An honest man. No wonder he’s leaving Congress. Alas, we need more of his kind, not fewer.
The footage of busy modern cars. Was that in Gaza or elsewhere?
What specifically does the Congressman propose?
Again, the only option that I can see as feasible at all is some consented international management of the Gaza port. There is a possibility of Israeli relaxation of its ground border, IF it gets some indication that Hamas is in earnest about recognizing Israel’s right to exist, and permanent renunciation of terror as means.
And, an indication of that intent is acceptance of the 800 for 1 prisoner exchange for Shalit. As Israel’s expansion into the West Bank and East Jerusalem indicates its intent to continue to expand, the failure to accept the Shalit exchange indicates to Israelis its intent to remain at war with Israel.
Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Show Witty pictures of gas coming out of those showers at Auschwitz! Or he won’t believe it!
what in the hell are you talking about Chaos? Why, every post, you have to mention the Holocaust? Show some respect for the 12 million killed.
As for the gas, Zyklon B, it was a clear, so you wouldn’t really be able to ‘show’ Witty anything.
“Show some respect for the 12 million killed”
Ach, inflation affects everything, huh?
BTW, I do believe the largest number of Jews were killed in the areas Germany occupied by Einsatzgruppen with good old machine guns (they tried exhaust-gas in trucks but it wasn’t really practical), the next largest cohort were in work/death camps, and were cremated when dead, and near the end of the war, actual gas chambers were used.
Yonira, no one, anywhere, has made more of a mockery of the Holacaust than the Zionists. You really don’t want to bring it up.
And “show some respect” coming from you? It is to laugh!
Mooser, what you say about the Jewish deaths is accurate; the actual death camps of course were intentionally kept out of Germany and set up in the OT, mostly Poland. Maybe yonira was including the non-Jews killed in the same ways? If so, the figure would be even higher than 12 million, if memory serves.
Much as Guantanamo was intentionally kept out of the continental — and Constitutional — US mainland and set up in the territory of the “evil” Cubans.
Everything I know I learned on C-Span, where recently the topic was, “should US close Guantanamo and house prisoners in Illinois, and try prisoners in NYC?”
One female caller responded: “No, we should keep Guantanamo — keep those Islamofascists in a place where it can be kept quiet….”
Slowly, slowly one begins to understand just what “Goldhaganesque” madness afflicted the minds and enraged the souls of all those evil Germans, as we Americans become them without even noticing that our souls are poisoned.
12 million is a pretty good estimate I think for total killed, not through warfare, but through what we consider the Holocaust (Holocaust is a word encompassing all deaths, not just Jewish deaths)
They weren’t all killed by gas, but many were, my point was though, why does the Holocaust have to be brought up countless times by Chaos?
Mooser, shove it girl.
Thanks, Citizen. Funny, the way Zionist supporters think they “own” the Holocaust.
It’s not about owning the Holocaust, but the fact that the Holocaust was unique in so far as an industrialized complex was created to exterminate a particular ethnic group.
…Unique? Because there’s no Israeli industry at all in the West Bank, huh.
12 million killed where? Are you talking about WWII or the Holocaust?
In WWII, Russia alone accounted for 50 million civilians and 29 million military at the hands of the Germans on Russian soil. Russia is seven time time zones wide. Half of that is the width of the USA, and Russian soldiers and citizens fought in that horrible war often without food or socks.
I’m getting tired of the argument that only Jews suffered in WWII, that only Jews have been persecuted over the centuries as if Jews sat around like potted plants and let everyone smash them with hammers and deprived them of food and water, or slipped plastic bags over their pots. And then exaggerate the number of dead as if you are permitted to do so to make your horror the worst.
There are Red Cross numbers and Nuremberg Trial numbers and Soviet Archive numbers. Please stick with the facts.
Zyklon B was the trade name in Germany for prussic acid, which when heated, released cyanide and left a distinctive (prussian) blue residue on the walls. (From The Oxford Companion to World War II.)
“Mooser, shove it girl.”
Ah, one of those feminists, who reject any of the trappings of the Victorian moral code. Such a modernist.
MRW,
can you please at least read what i write before you respond with what you think the standard ‘Jewish Hasbara’ line would be. It’s really getting old.
12 million is a pretty good estimate I think for total killed, not through warfare, but through what we consider the Holocaust (Holocaust is a word encompassing all deaths, not just Jewish deaths)
It was more than one ethnic group.
MRW your numbers of Soviets killed in WWII are way off. The total, civilian and military is less the 20 million — horrific as that is.
Well, at least two ethnic groups–you forgot the Roma, one visualized as the
big banker thief; the other visualized as the pickpocket, more petty thief, both preying on the chosen Aryan host.
Syvanen, the source is under a fee firewall. But you can try:
link to articles.latimes.com
June 22, 2000 in print edition B-11
And, Syvanen, in “Population Under Duress: Geodemography Of Post-soviet Russia” ~ George J Demko (Author), Steven K Pontius (Author), Zhanna Zaionchkovskaya (Author), Gregory Ioffe (Author), Victor Perevedentsev says it was 37.5 million from 1941-1945.
The 20 million figure is under some dispute. Largely, because during the Cold War years, no one wanted to give Russia an inch at sympathy.
The Congressmen has been trying to get his fellow congress peeps to listen for a second about Gaza; they refuse–ignore him. You have to get X to have a clue about
the situation before you can propose possible solutions.
“There is a possibility of Israeli relaxation of its ground border, IF it gets some indication that Hamas is in earnest about recognizing Israel’s right to exist, and permanent renunciation of terror as means.”
Why does Israel need Hamas to recognize Israel’s right to exist Witty? Will Israel perish if they don’t? Since when has Israel given any credence to Hamas and what they believe, when Israel refused to even recoginize that Hamas was elected in 2006?
Would a permanent renunciation of terror as means by Hamas be met with a and permanent renunciation of terror as means by Israel?
I’m still flabbergasted that Witty demands that Hamas recognize Israel on the Green Line borders when Israel doesn’t recognize Israel on the Green Line borders.
That’s always been the odd thing, Israel doesn’t recognise Israel, nobody knows what’s inside Israel one day to the next.
And Israel doesn’t know what it means by a “Jewish state” or even “who is a Jew” but demands that the Palestinians recognize them as such.
I think it was Israel Shahak who wrote that the Israeli ministry of the interior doesn’t actually recognise Israeli as a nationality, you can be Arab, Druze, Jewish, but not Israeli.
The 800 to 1 prisoner exchange–you talk about this as though it’s some generous Israeli offer. But the ratio is like that because Israel has the power to imprison massive numbers–to some degree they can snatch up whoever they like, guilty or not.
Reading you, along with that Kershner article in the NYT on Christmas, has made me wonder if maybe really harsh sanctions are all you understand. Appeals to a common universal morality fall on deaf ears with you–you don’t recognize any Palestinian rights that can’t be violated for Israel’s sake. If this was just you it wouldn’t matter–big deal, someone on the web is a narcissist. But the Kershner article made it clear (which most of us had picked up on anyway) that your attitude is pervasive in Israel. The majority of Israelis seem to think like you. Not surprising, really–maybe most people are like this, especially when they realize at some level that their entire country exists because they ethnically cleansed it, and the outcasts are just a few dozen miles away. They have to dehumanize the Palestinians, because their whole ideology depends on Israel having the right to have kicked the Palestinians out of their homes. You have to dehumanize them too, because you embrace that same ideology.
If that’s the case, then maybe harsh sanctions are the answer. You accept them for the Gazans–apparently so long as they have gas for cars it’s okay. So impose something equally harsh on Israel, until they uproot the settlements and show a willingness to treat Palestinians like human beings. Treat them as a pariah state, just as they treat Gaza. Tit for tat. Maybe they should be bombed a little first, so that they have thousands of wrecked homes they can’t repair.
What’s wrong with this logic, Witty? I mean, other than the fact that it would be imposed on Israeli Jews rather than Palestinians? I couldn’t support it myself–two wrongs don’t make a right. But you don’t think the first wrong is a wrong.
Well, Witty’s a Zionist. You have to understand, in his mind it takes more than that many to even equate to a Jewish fingernail, so the old motto goes.
Jeez, guys, stop worrying! Those post-Zionist Zionists will be along any minute now, and admit that Israel has some problems. They will admit that Israel has some problems!!!!
I mean, and I’m not kidding, that they will admit that Israel isn’t perfect!
Up to the point of course, where you single Israel out.
Sorta reminds me of that cable tv reality show where all love parents and tough love parents exchange their kids; usually, by the end of the show (after much glaring friction in both exchanged homes) both sets of parents and kids grudgingly admit their respective ways of life contain
some problems.
Reading you, along with that Kershner article in the NYT on Christmas, has made me wonder if maybe really harsh sanctions are all you understand.
Me too, actually. Not just because of moral considerations, but because it’s becoming more and more apparent that Israel’s peons, by and large, cannot comprehend a rational argument. But they have proven that they do understand the concept of threats.
“The footage of busy modern cars. Was that in Gaza or elsewhere?”
That reminds me of the blog post of a Swiss-Israeli I recently came across. The content was, and I’m not kidding:
“Everybody always says that Gaza is impoverished, but here I have two photos of a fruit market stand in Gaza*, and one photo of cars on a street in Gaza. This disproves the notion that Gaza is impoverished.”
This is the world these people are living in. Where you can disprove carefully collected statistics about a region inhabited by 1.5 million people by three (unsourced, not that it matters) photographs.
Richard, the headline by Adam says it all. “Rep. Brian Baird to call for cutting US aid to Israel unless the blockade on Gaza is lifted.” You, as a self-described “Zionist humanist,” should get the picture. People are dying. They’re squatting in the rubble of their former homes. End the siege on the 1.5 million people of Palestine, and find another way to deal with Hamas outside of collective punishment and the Dahiya doctrine.
Was that the same heading as ten minutes ago?
No comment on the proposal for consented international management of the port, following acknowledgement by Hamas of Israel’s right to exist, thereby ENDING its state of permanent war.
I don’t believe that punishment absent proposal is particularly progressive.
Baird has to go further, to actually advocate for something.
The whole mess is frustrating. Its frustrating (more than frustrating) that the Gazans can’t get building materials. Its frustrating (more than frustrating) that Hamas can’t/won’t stop shelling of Israeli civilians, still though much less frequently.
Oh, you mean like ENDING THE BLOCKADE?
The blockade… which is an internationally recognized act of war. Sometimes, I wonder if it is with some irony that people will on one breath, defend how Israel “launched a preemptive strike against Egyptian forces in response to Egypt?s closing of the Straits of Tiran,” and then defend a harder blockade of Gaza.. a place that Israel occupied in that war.
People will even use the “Israel responds” meme in both cases. Mindbending.
Then you should oppose and condemn Israel’s punitive blockade, no?
Speaking of memes, note how Witty phrases his “frustration”:
Its frustrating (more than frustrating) that the Gazans can’t get building materials. Its frustrating (more than frustrating) that Hamas can’t/won’t stop shelling of Israeli civilians, still though much less frequently.
From reading that, if you were uninformed, you’d think that their was simply some logistical and/or monetary reason that “Gazans can’t get building materials.” Witty can’t even acknowledge here that Israel is blockading Gaza and is the reason for the lack of building materials as well as the lack of human necessities in Gaza. Its never Israel’s fault or responsibility. Witty wants a Zionist Jewish State, but he doesn’t want that state to have to shoulder any responsibility for its own actions. Hamas, however, the much weaker party with much more limited options, is totally responsible for its own actions, and those of Israel. And Israel, of course, as you mention, never initiates, it merely responds.
On another note, I found it enlightening in ironic terms when, during the 2006 Lebanon War, some Jewish Israelis abandoned their homes in the north, seeking safety, and then returned home after the hostilities ended with not a question about their right to return, but yet, to hear the usual hasbara meme, Palestinians were not allowed to return to their homes, because they abandoned them in wartime.
As in the months leading up to the Gaza turkey shoot, the Pals are shelling “much less frequently.” And, still, as before, no lifting of the blockade.
Must be frustrating, to stop the rockets while Israel keeps on killing and killing.
I don’t believe that USA diplomacy should short the sticks and continue only giving carrots to Israel–it’s not in the long-term best interests of anyone. This single exception to the USA’s use of the full bag of foreign policy tricks has just got to be kicked to the curb. Baird knows it. How will most Americans know it without the likes of him in congress? Wonder why he’s stepping down. All he’s said is it’s because he wants to spend more time with his nuclear family, and/or he’s looking for a different way to affect change he thinks is needed. Nobody seems to have the scoop. I’m guessing AIPAC minions have ferreted out something about some abuse of his office financially, perhaps travel billings, is making him do so… He’s young, he’s courageous, he didn’t need to step down.
Anyone have a clue why he’s doing so after taking courageous independent stands on the environment and Israel?
Right, Witty, because it was Hamas who has access to vast supplies of F-16s and cluster bombs and white phosphorous and an undeclared nuclear arsenal. It was Hamas who killed six Palestinians on November 4th in flagrant violation of the cease fire. It’s Hamas that is bulldozing homes in East Jerusalem. It’s Hamas that leveled whole neighborhoods in Beirut and flew air strikes into Syria and Libya last year.
When did Israel bomb Libya?
not sure what all Witty’s “open the ports” yammering is about — anything to do with the fact that Gaza’s littoral possessions include multi-millions of shekels worth of gas that Israel covets and, today, controls?
War and Natural Gas: The Israeli Invasion and Gaza’s Offshore Gas Fields
by Michel Chossudovsky blog, “Global Research”
link to globalresearch.ca
Sorry, my mistake, that was Sudan.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
link to time.com
In other news, Rep. Brian Baird to face pro-Israeli funding juggernaut in a harsh re-election campaign that will be largely uncovered in mainstream U.S. television media.
You think Brian Baird has it bad? Rep. Ellison is African American. I’d be keeping an eye out for him to get the “Cynthia McKinney” treatment in the near future.
Ellison is also Muslim, I believe, which gets you all sorts of cupcakes from fellow Members of Congress, I’m sure
Baird is not running for re-election. bob, if you want some more info on that, check out the related posts on this post. The one called “What will Brian Baird do next” has a link to the announcement.
Baird isn’t running for re-election. He’s a free man, one of the few in Congress who can actually speak the truth.
Ahh. That explains it.
I don’t even know why we bother with Richard. He obviously lives in another dimension where the Israeli cause is just, and where Israel would automatically end the siege of Gaza, end the occupation and recognise a Palestinian state as its equal, as soon as the Palestinians concede everything.
Forgive me Richard if I think you’re being a tad naive.
There’s three reasons I bother with Witty: A) I can run rings around him, but it does take some effort, so its good exercise; B) I really despise people who pretend to be other people’s friends and then stab said friends in the back; C) someone has to stand up to people who justify crimes against humanity, otherwise the Weimar Republic will find itself reincarnated.
I think assuming Richard is naive is too generous. I think he knows exactly what he’s doing.
“I really despise people who pretend to be other people’s friends and then stab said friends in the back”
All you have to do, Chaos, is go back to the posts from Phil’s first trip to Gaza, and Witty’s comments. Witty accused Phil of being brainwashed or coerced by the Gazans. All the evidence for both his viciousness and his mendacity is right there.
It should be easily accesible in the archives. It was a disgusting, but telling and typical performance by Witty.
You could also go back and consider other supportive posts of the person Phil, even as I severely disagree with many of his positions (the few he states overtly), and his editorial choices.
Supporting Phil’s mother and perhaps others in his family that have been friends with your family over the years is not the same as supporting Phil, the person. When’s the last time you and Phil sat down and had a meal or a beer together? Do your respective wives get along? Just curious.
So you do know what I’m talking about, don’t you Richard, and on that one, it hit home, rendering you unable to adhere to your usual policy of ignoring me as a low-class, non-elite Jew. If you answered me, it must have hit deep!
Yup, Chaos, everything you need to know about Richard Witty is in his comments on Phil’s first Gaza trip.
Witty did not, by any means “disagree with many of his positions”. He questioned, and condemned, Phil’s basic journalistic honesty, describing him as “brainwashed” and “coerced” by the Gazans. Of course, Richard had an alternate theory, that Phil was too stupid to know what he was seeing and experiencing.
Anyway, it’s all there.
“I severely disagree with many of his positions (the few he states overtly)”
BTW, another reliable sign of ziocaine intoxication; everybody owes them an explanation. They of course, don’t have to explain or account for anything.
So, let’s see… Dick Witty severely disagrees with the few positions Phil Weiss directly expresses. Fair enough? We have all Phil’s articles, and we have all
Dick’s comments on those articles, including all those where he directly addresses Phil’s articulated notions. Phil writes of his personal feelings; shows how they relate in his mind to ideas and realities on the ground. He’s thus always intentionally vulnerable to being an impeachable messenger, as well
as one who discloses how he’s selected the messages to open. In contrast, Dick Witty hides behind a stream of abstract, rational and humanistic verbiage delivered up front. Who’s the poser? Who’s the one being open, who the one being closed, nested in a cloud of abstraction? You be the judge
as to whom you rather have as a trench buddy.
Well, that sums it up pretty nicely!
This guy is clearly going to be on AIPAC’s hit list. Let’s hope he does not meet the same fate as Cynthia McKinney, Paul Findlay, Charles Percy, Pete McCloskey.
On the one hand, it is heartening that there is someone so bold in Congress. On the other, the fact that he is in such a tiny minority, and that this aired on al-Jazeera rather than any mainstream US network, show how much work there is to be done.
David, Baird’s planning not to run again:
link to mondoweiss.net
Right, I forgot. Thanks.
More on Baird from JTA link to blogs.jta.org:
The article still praises Baird for his honesty and independence.
More commentary here: link to politico.com
I would say the time for mere discussion has long past, and that if Baird is willing to put this withholding of funds to Israel on the line that he not only needs support immediately, telling him this is an excellent idea, but that it is time to organize. The days of voices in the wilderness needs to come to a halt, and all of those who want this atrocity on Gaza stopped need to unite.
Organize what? Specific dates of introduction of the appeal on the floor have to be set, and along with this a massive campaign must build pf the willing to march on Washington. Along with this specific of the funding to be cut from Israel as the main topic to redress we must say that we will not tolerate the influence of the Lobby any longer. It must be coupled with the cutting off of influence of the Lobby money as well as that of other interests which impede the progress of the will of the people both foreign and domestic. Why must it be broad like this? Because it must address all of our so-called representatives which do nothing but the bidding of multinational corporations and the moneyed elite.
As it has been said in the past “it is time to stop singing and start swinging.” What we address is not merely the topic of the Gaza siege but the entire system, even if we use the Gaza tragedy as a spearhead to address our concerns – indeed, our demands!
How ’bout this approach: divesting from Israel will positively impact US employment: shouldn’t Americans be benefiting and gain employment from the wars Americans are fighting that will benefit Israel?
link to haaretz.com
more:
P God, these two articles should be printed and mailed via snail mail to your congressman, asking WTF.
One thing, you cannot send a supportive email to Baird via his web site if you live outside his constituency zip codes area. That’s not a plus.
Citizen — very true, but you can call his office. I have.
From what I have heard, now that I think about it, that’s how congressional websites are set up, only consituent e-mails via the web site.
Anyone can, of course, send written mail or phone.
Written letters are supposed to be the most effective in getting their attention.
Yeah, that’s what Chris Matthews said about a month ago on his nightly show. Written letters get attention.
Thank you VR. I can always get a good laugh from your posts. Now you are going to change the system. Norman Finkelstein will be President. Do you even have a job? When you grow up and work you will find out business is what runs the US.
Again:
“The footage of busy modern cars. Was that in Gaza or elsewhere?
What specifically does the Congressman propose?
Again, the only option that I can see as feasible at all is some consented international management of the Gaza port. There is a possibility of Israeli relaxation of its ground border, IF it gets some indication that Hamas is in earnest about recognizing Israel’s right to exist, and permanent renunciation of terror as means.”
I do believe you recognise that Israel is doomed, and in the near future, and this is the reason for your denial of its actions. You fear what you know will happen.
How and why is Israel doomed?
So let me get this straight. Every goddamn interview with a Zionist and you claim that its faulty because it was “obviously edited,” and so now they show pictures of traffic and you assume that must be Gaza? You know, in spite of all the pictures preceding it showing the actual damage? And the fact that at that point in the commentary, they were talking about Israel?
Please tell me you are only playing this stupid.
Witty? Is that self-determination? Or is self-determination something only Jews are entitled to?
“Again, the only option that I can see as feasible at all is some consented international management of the Gaza port.”
What you mean is that the only option you are willing to consider is the international management of the Gaza port. There are others, like handing the management of the Gaza port to the elected government in Gaza, but being the insufferable hypocrite that you are, this would never occur to you.
Dick Witty, you mean those cars obviously driving past the Capitol in DC?
Baird specifically proposes that we cut foreign aid to Israel to get them to finally recognize
in a practical way our official foreign policy regarding the Israeli settlements.
And he proposes that the US congress actually deal with Gaza misery and not just rubber-stamp Israeli-AIPAC policy with USA funds and legislation as a pure matter of “security for Israel.”
Israel exists, as a legal and practical matter. Nobody disputes this. Hamas even recognizes it. “The moral right to exist as it does” is another story. Did you forget
your biblical stories about ancient Egypt?
“Dick Witty, you mean those cars obviously driving past the Capitol in DC?”
Wait a minute, Citizen! Are you saying that Witty was so eager to try and discredit the reports of Gaza damage he is using cars drive past the Capitol building as proof of Gaza’s vitality? Gotta admit he’s right there don’t you? I mean, did the Israeli shelling and phosphorus have the slightest effect on DC traffic?
I actually just asked. Noone answered.
They could look at the footage and say, “no, I think that was in the US, or in Egypt”, and why.
Lame responses.
I assume the cars were in Gaza. Gaza’s not a big place and people can’t drive very far, so they might be able to smuggle in enough gas to keep some cars driving around in the short distances they have to travel.
What was lame here was your latching onto the cars to dismiss the severity of the blockade. And what goes beyond lame into the realm of racism is your double standards on human rights.
I explained my questions. The isolation of Gaza is described as deadly, genocidal.
When the reality is that there is an extent of affect, not black/white.
I deal similarly with rabid environmentalists that join me in public presentations. Where I present relative quantified and comparable affects on economy or air quality from a proposed bio-mass plant, that are USEFUL for judgement and decision-making, others describe the affects as the proposal of a demon, black/white without any basis to decide whether the best option is to:
1. Shut the plant down
2. Compel application of scrubbing equipment
3. Tax emissions
4. Do nothing as the consequences are not material
To what extent is Gazan civilian life affected, how specifically, and what can practically be done, so effective advocates can actually propose something that is feasible?
Yeah, really, Donald. Let’s go pull up some video of cars in Tel Aviv and use that as proof that Hamas never fired rockets from Gaza, ever! That’s the same sort of logic, but of course Witty would never utilize it — because it’s not about processing actual visual evidence, it’s about Witty finding reasons to justify his racism.
I don’t get it, Witty. They actually showed footage of the horrendous damage done to Gaza earlier in the film. Are you really blind to the Palestinians. Were your eyes literally glossing over for the whole thing and then suddenly you were woken up by the video of moving cars?
That’s your humanism at work? Watching the cars and disregarding everything else?
To what extent is Gazan civilian life affected, how specifically,
Well,
1) quite a lot of people are homeless,
2) the vast majority survive on only basic food rations,
3) many are unable to go to school because they haven’t been rebuilt and there are shortages of equipment,
4)university students are stuck because:
a) if they went to the I U of Gaza, then their University only partially exists now
b) if they studied in the West Bank, they were deported by the Israeli government for some reason
c) if they studied at any other country, they were refused exit from Gaza by the Egyptians and Israelis.
what can practically be done,
Well, 1, 2 and 3 can be solved by ending the blockade, goods can come in, homes, schools and universities can be rebuilt and people can get food the same way the rest of us do. 4 can be sorted out through a change of attitude by the Israelis, but you asked for something practical, which is why you need an academic boycott, so Israel realises what it’s like to be on the receiving end of such actions.
“…recognizing Israel’s right to exist, and permanent renunciation of terror as means.” ”
Uh oh Witty, wrong chorus line, you need to find Hillary in the State Department. Maybe you could get a position there eh?
Israel has no right to exist on its current course, unless it renounces terror as a means and its process of the slow genocide of the Palestinian people.
If you got more specific rather than big words like “genocide”, we might agree.
I’m not sure why you don’t want to be taken seriously.
No answer on the cars? or what the Congressman proposes in fact?
Witty–
If you are so interested in the cars, why don’t you call Al Jazeera (where the footage comes from) instead of interrogating random bloggers about it? You just sound like an ass.
Those looked like PA uniforms to me, which would indicate West Bank, but it’s actually sort of tough to tell where the gray-block buildings in the background are from a second of footage.
Care to elaborate as to what your POINT is on that? Other than just harassing people? Are you surprised that there are cars in Gaza? It wasn’t always blockaded, you know…and all sorts of stuff comes through the tunnels, including food, appliances, and fuel.
The significance of the cars is that it looks like a bustling city, with resources, with metal work in one shot.
There was a Bronner report from Gaza in March, in which he stated that surprisingly, the Gazan cities were vibrant, that the population was resourceful, primarily civil in orientation and civil in personal tone. And, that that contrasted with the tone and orientation of the Hamas government and cadre, which were considerably more militant, rhetorical. But, his description of the city was of a normal city.
The posse here condemned the Bronner report as a political apology for Israel, a “hasbara” propaganda, even as he praised Gazan civility and resourcefulness.
But, the Bronner report, and later Phil’s similar descriptions of Gazan civil life, suggested that maybe Gazans’ life wasn’t so bad, not as bad as described.
I went to Liverpool once in 1987, and saw two sites that remained bombed out from WW2. I couldn’t believe that that was how people lived. But, I also went to affluent cafes in Liverpool, and saw schools and factories functioning.
So, my state of mind, is “I don’t know”. It seems that Gazans would be suffering as a result of the blockade, and yet I see crowded highways with some newer cars than mine.
Thats the point about the cars. I can’t tell from the pictures.
I’ll believe Phil if he states clearly and assertively, while demonstrating journalistic skepticism and inquiry, even if elements of it bely the propaganda.
The next question is “how bad is it”? Bad/good is not enough information.
Something must change, and hopefully in a way that results in civil relationship between Gaza and Israel. I don’t know how to get there. I don’t hear that civil relationship as a goal among most that post here.
Witty! We unearthed a photo of a Jew walking down down the street in Nazi occupied Belgium without being shot or gassed or worked to death. I guess that means the Holocaust never happened!
That’s why you disgust me, Witty. You really are the Jewish equivalent of Stormfront.
A family friend recently went to Cuba for a holiday and was surprised to see so many cars available despite being under embargo for so many years, and with the Soviet Union being long gone. He was even more surprised by the fact that the cars were mainly old mercedes, chevrolets, fords etc.
After some enquiring, he found out that the bodies of these cars were from before the revolution but if you took a look inside, the engines were from Soviet-made Skodas.
Gaza being bustling is expected when you have 1.5 million people squashed into two small urban areas. The fact that there are cars there is also unsurprising – when starved off resources, prices adjust and mankind find ways to adapt – Economics 101
“There was a Bronner report from Gaza in March, in which he stated that surprisingly, the Gazan cities were vibrant, that the population was resourceful, primarily civil in orientation and civil in personal tone. ”
Bronner is a true Zionist shill and propagandist. It was Bronner who spread the BS about Arafat walking away from the Camp David talks and who gave us the fairy tale that Barak went further than any other Israeli PM only to be met with Palestinian violence.
“…the only option that I can see as feasible…”
The only option that Witty sees feasible is the preservation of Israel’s ass even though it is a murderous and racist pig stye. That is because he has his head shoved so far up their ass (Israel’s) that he cannot conceive of any other options.
that reminds me of the famous gazan zebra story! these zionists are so cruel!!!
Cars? STOCK FOOTAGE. Proposal? END THE FREAKING BLOCKADE.
Do we need hand puppets for you, Witty? Really? Because I can go get them.
Dick Witty, forget about big words like “genocide.” Don’t bother to look into the
international consensus of what that word means, starting, of course , with the Nuremberg trials, and moving on to Geneva, et all. We are certain why you don’t want to be taken seriously. But your status quo thinking will go the way of the dinosaurs.
Genocide? The Palestinian population keeps doubling. How does that figure to be genocide?
Can’t you guys get anything right?
Genocide? The Jewish population has doubled since WWII, the Germans were innocent!
Lets get to this stupid definition that Witty calls “genocide,” that serves as a blockade of it being used as it is actually defined. Now you are entering my field of expertise Mr. auditor, and we will see how severely you put your foot in your mouth and kick. This is because by definitively stealing what genocide means, it has become the stock and trade of anyone who wishes to enter the process, including Israel, as long as they do not goose step.
It is a subject that I believe to be as serious as Holocaust denial, but has become a working process to excuse atrocities which must be stopped. Indeed, it is more insidious, this exclusivity because it has been embraced and is freely taught and propagated as a legitimate fact, thereby it is empowered by the very trappings of state.
From childhood we have been told “don’t compare,” that the unique suffering which has been experienced by the Jewish people has no parallel and all attempts to measure it with the sufferings of others is a sort of moral crime. All the while that this restriction has been enjoined people all over the world have suffered in the proportion of genocide, both past and present – but they have been marginalized, indeed their moral voice has been robbed from them by what I will call Holocaust hegemony. By the time I am done the king will have no clothes.
This form of genocide exclusivity in regard to genocide is used as a shield, while countries commit genocide, a classic case example being what Israeli Zionists have and are doing to the Palestinians. However, they are not alone, this same exclusivity has been built into the warp and woof of the United States, and other strong nations which excuse themselves from genocide of the past, present, and the future because they do it without goose-stepping. You could call it an unspoken unholy alliance.
The notion of hundreds of thousands dying while not foreign to genocide, does not relate to a need for the extermination of hundreds of thousands or a majority of a population. This is because even the definition of “genocide” is misconstrued. The definition of the word is genos (Greek) meaning “type,” and the Latin word cide, killing which someone would think means killing a group by Lemkin who coined it. When you read Lemkin’s formulation of the word genocide, nothing requires the total killing of a group or all (most) of the members. Not the eradication of a gene pool. Chapter 9 of Axis Rule.
“…destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves [even if all of the individuals in the group themselves survive]. The objective of such a plan would be the disintegration of political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of personal security, liberty, health, dignity…”
This is not the denial of the death of approximately six million Jews, it is the confession that it falls under a much broader context. In other words there have been and are many genocides that have and are taking place. This same definition above is incorporated in the second article of the UN 1948 convention, which specifies 5 different categories of action which constitute the crime when applied “with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such.”
It is the exclusivity, the virtual holocaust hegemony of one group, which denies the moral voice and force of others. Holocaust exclusivity is just as bad (or worse) as Holocaust denial. Because this genocide is bound up with many of the past.
What motivates these people? They want something that compels the permanent maintenance of the privileged status of Israel, a Jewish state established on Arab land, as an act of atonement for the Holocaust. This myth of unique suffering which is supposed to entitle one to all of these prerogatives. That is, to set up a screen to hide the genocide of the Palestinians whose rights and property was usurped by the very creation of the state.
Why do others buy into this scenario? It means they never have to come to grips with a multitude of genocides, having a “unique and exclusive” one which has been created not by honesty with the historical facts of what is the world enterprise of genocide (especially among settler states).
The only thing you will be reduced to in the process of challenging me is saying that I am a “Holocaust minimizer,” and shrill accusations of being a self-hater. This is because with the facts laid bare, it is all the opposition is left with. This is a grossly understated statement, which the confines of this venue will afford, but sufficient to expose the hind quarters of what is taking place in the world and in Palestine today. The stealing of the moral authority of the voice of those suffering genocide must stop.
All genocides are simultaneously unique and analogous, but the Jewish Holocaust is not sui generis – uniquely unique.
Now you can commence sticking your foot in your mouth Witty.
“Genocide? The Jewish population has doubled since WWII, the Germans were innocent!”
You can’t be this dumb. The Palestinian population is doubling while your supposed genocide is taking place. The Jewish population grew after the Holocaust.
You can’t even get simple facts right. This is why your movement continues to fail.
It is interesting to note the disparity in Shoah death figures then, and now–as set out, e.g., to Germany recently as needing more reparations to Israel so Israel can care for
its former Shoah population still existing as claimed.
Julian you just perpetuate the myth that genocide consists in some supposed annihilation, when this is not the case, although there may be great numbers of individuals killed. Nice try hoisting the Holocaust hegemony, see my post at December 29, 2009 at 6:51 pm, if you are capable of reading.
“If you got more specific rather than big words like “genocide”, “
Sure Richard, sure, I’ve noticed any number of people who feel the same way about the use of the word “genocide” concerning the Holocaust.
And just a little friendly advice, Richard, you really, really don’t want to start a discussion on the definition of “genocide” , cause that’s going to lead to all kinds quotes from Israeli public figures and religious and civil authourities about their “final solution” (yes, in quotes, see what I mean?) to the “Palestinian problem”. Then we can talk about appeasement, and how bad it is.
You don’t want to go there, Richard.
You know, also Richard, it’s really annoying how you think the entire world is Israel’s chambermaid. The Zionists, and then Israel, made the bed they’re lying in, nobody else. Do you want us to fix your sagging birth-rate and out-marriage rate, too? (wink-wink, nudge-nudge)
It hinders actual conversation to use vague terms.
Do you want to actually discuss, or just rant?
Gosh, yes, let’s discuss “modern” cars in two seconds of footage. That gets my discussion juices all worked up.
Personally I prefer post-modern cards. So much more hip.
I can’t imagine what its like, being married to you.
“Richard, did you drink the last Diet Pepsi? I asked you to leave that for me because I can’t drink the other soda in the fridge.”
“Dear, your use of vague terminology is hindering the conversation. Do you actually want to discuss who drank the last Diet Pepsi, or just rant?”
“Further, my dear, I had a right to that last Diet Pepsi because I have relatives who
had to drink Regular Pepsi and the regular drink caused them upset stomachs.”
Sheesh! Can’t we be civilized?”
Of course, the only obvious catch to the analogy (below) is that they are not hunted prisoners, but the murderous hunters. Not caged, but loose and on a killing spree – not by a person at a time, but thousands. They are not sparsely armed, but are the world “super-power” and an erstwhile 4th most powerful force. The are not seen as a criminal scourge, but are portrayed as “a light unto the nations.” A supposed modern sophisticated state, culturally advanced, with aspirations of world leadership in the future, and defended by the worlds reigning super power.
ZIONISMS SOPHISTICATED FACADE MASKS REALITY
See how sophisticated he is, what a complex individual…
Of course, the truth be told I see almost all modern Hegelian States in the same light (above link regarding Zionism), but this does not make it any less so in regard to Israel nor disqualify it for address and remedy.
Why not just unconditionally end all aid to Israel? That would be the right thing to do.
Love the question. It would sure make Israel reconsider its policies–a goal I admire.
Perhaps Dick Witty will tell us why we should or should not end all unconditional aid to Israel? I say, yes, let’s do it; no other country is given unconditional aid by Uncle Sam–not even those countries with (while it lasts, not long) the most cultural and historical demography with the USA.
I agree that aid should be cut off or at least limited until something is done about Gaza and the occupation as a whole.
Really yonira? or are you two people. You make sensible comments and then follow with some blood curdling defense of an Israeli atrocity.
Yonira just makes fodder of what she thinks will never happen, for the sake of apperance if not anything else. This is the only conclusion you can come to syvanen with the posting contradictions.
Like what? what did I defend? I defend a two state solution and I get destroyed here. Are you all really that close minded?
Like what? what did I defend?
Yes yonira I do recall you supporting the two state solution. Like I said you often sound sensible. But then there are those other things you say. No I do not have the links but you have definitely left them out there.
oops, sorry about that.
Yonira defends people like Odious Jerk and Witty the Liar, it is not surprising that people associate him with their opinions.
“Like what? what did I defend?”
Oh, lets see yonira –
“Africa has already seen the might of the IAF(in a defensive role). Chaos you should read about Entebbe, I’d like to see how that is spun by you and your cronies. ”
“I’d call it a clandestine operation, but its purpose was to terrorize those responsible for Munich, a little taste of their own medicine. Major difference was those who were murdered were linked to Black September and in some way responsible for Munich (except the waiter in Lillehammer), where those who were murdered @ Munich were athletes.
Have you seen the movie Munich? Its a fair portrayal of what happened throughout Europe following Munich and the psychological implications of being an assassin. ”
Regarding Ahmed Tibi of the Knesset -
“Then he go back and report the inner workings of the Knesset to his handlers in Beirut.”
Here is yonira with the line about “Jewish persecution” by the Palestinians!
“and what was the excuse for Jewish persecution before that Shmuel? And in your Utopian world after Israel is destroyed, what will be the excuse for Jewish persecution then?”
I mean the list is endless, want more yonira? I can accommodate you if you like.
VR, ziocaine has a characteristic it shares with certain other intoxicants- “blackouts”. That is, a person on a ziocaine high will say the most incredible brutal, bigoted and cowardly things, and the next day, deny he said them, and in fact, believes he hasn’t said them! And sees no reason why he should be taxed with them. But don’t argue with them about it! Their face gets all red, their lips began bubbling or frothing and they start yelling “anti-Semitism” at the top of their lungs.
Funny as usual. But also right on.
“That is, a person on a ziocaine high will say the most incredible brutal, bigoted and cowardly things, and the next day, deny he said them, and in fact, believes he hasn’t said them!”
It also works with Zionist talking points.
A person on a ziocaine high will recite debunked as discredited talking points, then after they have been smacked down and discredited, return the next day and repeat the same BS points as though no one has ever heard them before.
Yes Mooser, which brings me to my unfortunate conclusion again, about the deteriorating mental condition of those who espouse Zionism –
NO DIFFERENCE
Guys, Yonira is liar, s/he is mocking you! S/he is a racist Zionist who believes in Ertez Israel and just playing with you, S/he doesnt believe in 2 states solution and shows no compassion to Pals.
Down down Zionism, Down down Racist Zionists! Free Free Palestine.
An example is Witty’s recent repetitive and erroneous cause and effect spiel on
who broke the lull causing OP Cast Lead.
I mean no more aid of any sort! No securing oil, weapons or sweetheart business deals for Israeli companies. And while we’re at it, there should be a demand for a reasonable schedule for loan re-payments. Those are obvious, just and rational actions that everyone knows will not be taken under the current system. Since that’s the case, shoudn’t Americans start to seriously question the system?
Every single thread Witty now writes the same inane questions, and every single thread now seems to be hijacked by his petulant and repetitive questions and undeclarative statements.
It’s driving good commenters away, and it’s getting boring.
I have to admit, it’s very frustrating that he can post the same discredited lies over and over and over again and there really isn’t any consequence. But then, that’s Israel all over, isn’t it?
“But then, that’s Israel all over, isn’t it?”
You hit the nail squarely on the head Chaos4700
“I have to admit, it’s very frustrating that he can post the same discredited lies over and over and over again and there really isn’t any consequence.”
Having an open comments section and giving Witty (like anyone else has) free run of the place was the cruelest thing Phil could ever have done to Richard Witty. I almost feel sorry for him. It’s like giving an alcoholic a bottle of liquor and the keys to a car.
This is why I keep trying to get Chaos to shut up and ignore him.
Potsherd, I think you flatter me by attributing to me the power to drive whole swaths of the viewing audience away by challenging Witty. As if I should be so lucky that anyone actually pays that much attention to me.
Witty’s not going to go away just because you ignore him. He’s simply going to post spam even worse. As if we haven’t seen that in action.
link to walt.foreignpolicy.com
Sorry to interrupt, but Steve Walt has nice post on the Gaza march, point being that it’s a non-event for the US papers of record. The Times did run a long piece to day on a schwarma shop in Jordan, so it’s not that they’re afraid of Mideast news.
Thanks for the heads-up.
hey guys i have good news for you. The egyptian gov will allow 100 participants of the Gaza freedom march into Gaza :-)
link to lauraontheleftcoast.blogspot.com
“The government fears the revolt of their own population more than anything, and they know that their collaboration with Israel in maintaining the siege–and the internal repressive conditions they maintain–just makes that revolt more inevitable.”
Yes aparisian, this is what I posted earlier in regard to the Egyptian people and their sentiments. I am glad to see they are taking advantage of the foreign presence to protest.
Some conversations about this issue
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Msnbc Rachel Maddow’s program Israeli Occupied Territory
link to dailykos.com
I read the thread at the dkos site. It shows how far we have to go, really. The people there still think the mere mention of an Israel lobby having a huge influence on what is covered in the press is “anti-semitic”. They really don’t think there is any bias in the press.
I sometimes do think a few people here come close to the antisemitism line (and one or two step right over it, though the most obvious ones were banned months ago). But that dkos thread is a superb illustration of just how sick and twisted the use of that term has become.
I never thought much of Daily Kos anyway, on the few occasions I’ve visited. Partisan Democrats aren’t much of an improvement over partisan Republicans.
Pingback: Kudos to Reps. Baird and Ellison! « Fair Policy, Fair Discussion
Do you think the Gaza March furthered the effort to improve Gazan’s lives, or hindered it?
Aww, Richard, your concern is touching. I’m sure your concern for Palestinian well-being is as real and constant as your regard for Phil Weiss.
Do you think the Warsaw Ghetto uprising furthered the effort to improve Jewish lives, or hindered them?
How did it hinder the effort to improve Gazan’s lives? Back it up or let your implication be exposed for the flimsy nonsense that it is.
Just stop, Richard, just stop. International pressure is THE ONLY THING working in favor of Gazans right now. Without the Viva Palestina convoy and the Free Gaza Boats and the Gaza Freedom March, Hedy Epstein wouldn’t get quoted in the NYT for trying to being pencils and paper into Gaza. Want more proof? Ha’aretz says it all:
“However, this is the first time Egypt has presented its two conditions for opening the border crossings and has linked the Shalit deal to the Palestinian reconciliation agreement. Though Israel has not publicly committed itself to lifting the blockade if Shalit is released, it appears that international pressure will not let it continue the closure. And practically speaking, there would no longer be any point to doing so: If Egypt decides to open its border with the Gaza Strip following the Shalit deal, Israel will not be able to prevent it.
Meanwhile, Egypt is suffering severe Arab criticism for having decided to put up a steel fence along its border with Gaza in order to prevent smuggling through the cross-border tunnels. Egyptian citizens in both parts of Rafah, a town that straddles the border, complain that fuel prices have already risen significantly and that without the tunnels, Gaza will suffer a serious shortage of fuel for heating during the winter. Some of the critics equate Egypt with Israel and accuse it of collaborating with “the Zionist state” against Gaza.
Last week, Egypt gave its critics additional cause for complaint by not allowing an aid convoy led by British MP George Galloway to enter Egypt through the Nuweiba port on the Gulf of Aqaba. The convoy, initially comprising about 70 trucks, went through Europe to Turkey, where it picked up several dozen more trucks, and thence to Syria and Jordan. From Jordan, the organizers wanted to cross into Sinai and continue to Gaza. But Egypt said the convoy could come in only through the Mediterranean port of Al Arish.
Galloway saw this as further Egyptian harassment of Gaza’s residents and expressed his opinion of it in a letter to the Egyptian president. But Egypt was unmoved. Aid or no aid, “no convoy is going to dictate Egypt’s decision on this matter,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman asserted.
Turkey then stepped in and offered to mediate. The outcome is that while the convoy will indeed not enter via Nuweiba, it will be able to go back through Syria and from there to Al Arish, where Egypt has undertaken to allow it in without difficulties.”
link to haaretz.com
-Rahim
Witty, Call AIPAC and tell them to call Obama who will call congressmen so they can make it forbidden to protest.
Btw i think AIPAC can call congressmen directly no need for puppet Obama.
Free Free Palestine!
It’s kind of maddening to hear Witty talk about Israel’s “right to exist.” And it’s easy enough to see why no Palestinian would concede that right out of hand. For one, it doesn’t simply mean what it at first glance implies–that of course Israelis have a right to live and certainly no sane person wants to drive them into the sea.
It is rather a whole series of interlocked propositions. If you accept the first one–that Israel has a right to exist–then you have to accept the fact that existence implies that the Israelis certainly can’t be expected to live in Auschwitz borders, therefore the Green Line needs to be moved expanded, Jerusalem its environs incorporated into Israel, water rights in the West Bank consolidated, settlers allowed to take additional hilltops as security and population growth require.
The other implied right in Israel’s right to exist is Israel’s “right to exist as Jewish state,” which means the Palestinians refugees can never come home, and discriminatory policies, such as those discouraging intermarriage with non-Jews or sales of houses to non-Jews, can never be dismantled.
No wonder Palestinians don’t want to concede upfront Israel’s right to exist. It’s not that they necessarily want to drive Israel into the sea. But they are also damned sure that in the process they don’t want to agree to a maintenance of the status quo.
Finally, it seems to me, the phrase “right to exist” is a profound misreading of history. No nation, as far as I can see, has a “right to exist.” There may be some postage stamp -sized country somewhere that was founded without violence or force and thus can make some moral claim about its founding, but if you’re talking about countries like Israel (and the United States) suggestions of legality (or morality) basically don’t apply. Most countries get their start when a stronger group of people come along and take the land away from a weaker people. That’s what happened in the United States and that’s what happened in modern day Israel. Rights have nothing to do with it.
This doesn’t mean I advocate giving America back to the Indians or Israel back to the Canannites. What’s done is done and the bell can’t be unrung. Sometimes all you can do is apologize for what you did in the olden days and make sure you don’t do it again. Even so, it would be nice though if people didn’t throw around phrases like “right to exist” when what they really want you to do is agree “not to complain about anything I took from you in the past or the manner in which I continue to take more of it today.”
In my opinion, Israel is a Nazi state, based on fantasies of race [artificial] and exceptionalism. If Israel has a right to exist, then so did Nazi Germany
200 years war approach.
Bosnia.
Naaaaa, once USA makes it into a fray it is a matter of few short years.
This is why internet is so dangerous.
“Mooser, shove it girl.”
Does this mean Mooser is female? Well, live and learn.