I keep saying that there’s about to be a Jewish intifada, that young empowered American Jews are going to throw off the idea of a Jewish state just because it is not meaningful to them. I deal in straws in the wind, and I saw it at J Street when young people spoke openly of Jewish privilege in America (a verboten meme in the older generations; because anti-Semites say that) and I saw it in Palestine last month, on a hillside in annexed Jerusalem, where an oldster leftish American-Israeli Jew confronted young Josh Levey and Michael Kaplan and said that Ethnic states are cool, and the two guys just smiled at her– these two students from a Jewish high school who are volunteering in a refugee camp and actually believe in democracy.
The whole reason for new generations is to let the old die off with their old ideas. They have lost the ability to imagine the world afresh. They are locked in their own beginning-middle-and-end that began with ancient assumptions, many of them racist, or steeped in the Holocaust. While the young, having absorbed in a heartbeat all the innovations that it took the previous generation 30 years to bring about (gay rights, civil rights), are ready to strike with their own hammers against the inequities of the human condition.
Well I had to sermonize, sorry. But here’s more evidence for my claim: New Voices, the Jewish students magazine, prints a groundbreaking piece by Jeremy Siegman called "States of Denial" (I think they punted on the headline) that essentially endorses the idea of a binational state. The feeling here is, If you will it it is not a dream, though Siegman makes a visit to Mort Klein of the ZOA, who he points out helped create the situation by destroying the 2SS by destroying the old idea of separation. Siegman:
With all these obstacles to separation, [Daniel] Gavron, a lifelong labor Zionist, ended his latest book with an unexpected bang.
He proposed that Israel be dissolved in favor of a single binational state, the State of Jerusalem.
“I think that the Jews would be rather horrified at losing the State of Israel to a one-state entity,” Gavron said. “But in a way we’ve got ourselves to blame, not the settlers. It’s the rest of us who’ve allowed them to do this.”
Gavron and [Tony] Judt agree that the settlement movement’s “facts on the ground” have been more successful than many realize, making complete separation between two states impossible.
If withdrawal is impossible, Gavron would let the entire territory of Israel and the Palestinian territories encompass a one-man, one-vote democratic state—similar to [Martin] Buber’s 1939 idea of a unified parliament of Israelis and Arabs in Palestine.
Israelis and Palestinians could live where they please, which would solve the problem of the “right of return” for Palestinians who were displaced in the Arab-Israeli fighting of 1947 and 1948. At the same time, the new state could maintain the Jewish Law of Return.
Gavron calls this “an open solution, without any walls through it,” or at least without Israel’s barrier along the West Bank border, built following the second Intifada.
Israel is a country that has absorbed astronomic numbers of Russian refugees, Gavron argues, and it could do the same with Palestinians. Palestinians share some of Israelis’ high-tech savvy, which he says could be another source of cooperation.
The State of Jerusalem would also merge the various Palestinian security forces with the IDF, which Gavron claims would make for fairer treatment of the diverse population…
Judt is unenthusiastic about the American Jewish Diaspora’s ability to make peace. He argues that diasporas in general “make small, vulnerable and victimized countries radical and resentful.”
Gavron thinks Jewish students can and should come around to his new ideas and would have J Street U [J Street's student wing] focus more on environmentalism.
“I’m not discouraging American students from coming [to Israel],” Gavron told New Voices. “Zionism today is about preserving our environment and working together, among peoples.”…
Both Judt and Gavron view Obama as the last, best hope for an agreement. And if two states were to pass, Gavron would be “deliriously happy,” he told New Voices.
Nor has Judt given up on Obama. He thinks that the negotiations could succeed now, but only if they abandon “so-called confidence building” and go straight to final-status issues: Jerusalem, territory, and rights of return—if only just in theory.
Advocates of a binational state seem willing to address those issues. They do not all claim to have answers, but they are asking many of the same questions that the early Zionists did.
Do Jews or Palestinians need their own nation-state to fulfill their aspirations? Should the international community try to establish more ethno-national states? Or can the two peoples retain ethnic states while living amongst each other?
This version of the binational one-state solution pie in the sky, because one-state requires de-privileging the jews of Israel just as the end of Apartheid required de-privileging the white South Africans. With the de-privileging, just as in South Africa, many – and I expect most – of them will leave. The one-state solution is about undoing colonialism and if the colonialism is not undone, it will be war to maintain jewish privilege just like now.
Exactly.
The Zionist project in Palestine was merely European colonization in the post modern contemporary era.
We tend to cloud a variety of identity issues and sympathies to obscure that fact.
The fact remains that without decolonization, there can be no real peace. Hence the 1 state solution is the only real solution to the conflict, and even then this solution doesn’t rectify the horror and damage the Israelis have inflicted upon the Palestinians.
No one is asking the Israelis to pay reparations to the Israelis but to rather give those Palestinians living under Israeli jurisdiction (those under military occupation) and those Palestinians languishing in refugee camps to return to their homes or near to their homes.
Meant to say No one is asking the Israelis to pay reperations to the Palestinians*
The title gives an impression that the new generation does not appreciate two state because they believe in democracy. Well, as a Christian I too cherish totally democracy. Democracy as in freedom and liberty within bounds of divine laws. Democracy as a social process strongly emerges from Christian political systems. These new generations of Israelites appears not Jewish anymore but more on Christian democratic character. Well of course if Israel is a Christian state then this problem on Palestinian issues will be completely politically eradicated.
However, is it possible? Not. Legally, if Israel ceased as a Jewish nation then the Balfour Declaration of 1917 that brought the creation of Israel is absolutely abrogated, and Israel has waived its right to exist. To the letters, the Balfour Declaration stated categorically the CREATION OF A JEWISH NATION…’. Thus if Israel chosed to be a Christian nation, then Israel ceased to exist, and both the Jewish and the Palestinians can have the capacity to exist under one state under a democratic regime…
So the ball is on the court of the new generation of Jews…
Actually the new generations of Jews must understand their situation. This is not a issue of Zionism anymore but the legal right of Israel to exist as a Jewish Nation…No Judaism, no Israel!
I challenge all the arguments of all the wiseguys of new generation Israelis. Try to declare abandoning the Jewish Nation goal, and declare to create a different political system other than the Jewish one…and well see what would follow next.
One thing with high probability is the ‘right to return’ and changing its name from Israel to Palestine, a secular (non-Jewish) name given by the emperial Romans. Even today, technically, while Israel is yet on the process of being a Jewish State, the right to return can be reclaimed and reestablished when the state of Israel is finally stabilizes, all the lands questionable lands occupied, and the Palestinian conflict ceased (take note of this propietary view!).
Because there there is no more conflict, the state is morally and conventionally required to settle all the accounts for compensation of all past developments over lands reclaimed by the state. This falls under the global principle of settlement of reclaimed properties (even by squatters), unless the lands were non-titled and owned by the previous state. There are precedence in some democratic nations as legally practiced.
If the Palestinians want a 1 state solution, their free to make one in Jordan.
Ooops i forgot, 75% of Jordan are Palestinians and Jews are barred from living in Jordan.
Fatah has a death penalty to any Arab who sells land to Jews and Fatah’s constitution is based on Sharia law.
Yup, lets have a one state solution with murderers
link to israelnationalnews.com
PA Defends Right to Publicly Honor Terrorists
Hana Levi Julian
1/15/10
One man, one vote.
Everyone under Israeli rule should get the franchise.
Then you can argue out the details in the Knesset.
You’re improving BR. The first three lines of your post are actually relevant to the thread (albeit asinine – and addressed here countless times). The recycled, re-re-re-repeated, irrelevant (as well as asinine – and addressed here quite adequately only a few days ago) talking points are definitely bad form.
Oh, and it’s “they’re“.
link to israelnationalnews.com
PA Historian & Official Deny Israel’s History in Land of Israel
Yoni Kempinski
11/4/09
Your link sounds like what Schlomo Sand has said. Ashkenazi were Turkish carpetbaggers who invented their ties to Israel, since Jewish intellectuals wanted something similar to German Nationalism. 80 years later, you’ve got your prize. Written by the blood of Palestinians. Just shut it and stop playing the game on this site. No one is that daft. Admit you’re lousy country is a fantasy as you continue to propagate the lie as most ardent Zionists hacks do so well.
Germany knows it was wrong and has paid to for wrongdoing for the last 80 years. when will Israel admit it’s wrong and return the illegally occupied lands to Palestine?
Germany today is much more honest and introspective than Israel; just as the Germans learned their lesson, and their successive (innocent) generations are paying for it,
why can’t the Israelis (and their enablers, the American organized Jews)?
They would be forced to a higher moral standard, but for AIPAC-ruled US government.
Nothing will change unless the USA regime quits sucking up to Zionist POV; this will not change because USA campaign finance law will not change. Did you check out the recent US Supreme Ct 4 to 5 decision on campaign financing? If you ever had a doubt the US was a plutocracy, you won’t after reading this judicial decision–and so, the USA will continue to be a regime of whores, always bought out by
whomever has the moneybags; shades of Truman. Nothing has changed. And it really doesn’t matter that Truman knew what he was doing; who has tried to
be a real American leader after the Kennedy Brothers? Carter a little bit, Bush Sr, a really tiny bit….that’s all. Nothing on the horizon looks hopeful.
Citizen:Did you check out the recent US Supreme Ct 4 to 5 decision on campaign financing?
Yes I found the Supreme court decision very bizarre, they accorded the rights of individuals to a corporation. Legal persons in the US have the right to not incriminate themselves, move freely around the country without restriction and arm themselves to the point of becoming a militia. Moreover legal persons are not required to pay other legal persons they have custody over for services taken from them. Legal persons can lie in public without accountability, they don’t have to stop, even when caught. There are many crimes for which the only penalty for a legal person is prison time. Bizarre x infinity.
I bet the issue is completely obfuscated in the media.
Any way you look at the court decision, at the very least it will operate to
further dilute the concept of one man-one vote, resulting in the still greater de facto partnership of top government and top corporate management devoted
to exploiting “We, The People.”
And when you toss in the other top partner, the MSM, we are now further down the road to purer fascism under the red, white, and blue.
This decision is bad news, but good news for the Washington whores. Did you review the book Shadow Elite? I am not sure if it is fluff, but might check it out, as I want to learn about ‘flexians’.
The US is also an oligarchy now in addition to a plutocracy. A line is being drawn by the wealthy. Manhattan will be a gated city in 50 years.
Be interesting to see the fallout of this decision in November when the MSM is inundated with campaign ads.
You might also want to lay off the Arutz Sheva links for a while.
“PA Historian & Official Deny Israel’s History in Land of Israel”‘
he happens to be right. The state of Israel was created by Great Britain in 1948. There as no staet of Israel prior to that date.
Hi folks:
Somewhat related as it deals with “deligitamization” but also just otherwise interesting too for its talk about the Israeli gov’t perception of lots of this kind of stuff, see:
link to original.antiwar.com
Very interesting (and possibly valid?) distinction Israel draws between “Softies” and “Hardies.” Hate to say I’m a Softie as that supposedly just makes one a tool of the Hardies, but….
In any event the article seemed worth noting here.
Excellent article Sin Nombre.
I think this quote really sums up the issue:
The rising popularity of the “new battlefield” theory shows how far they will go to hold on to their fear and victimization – to see anti-Semitism, rather than the occupation, as the source of all their woes – and to avoid making the compromises that could open the path to peace.
As long as Israel refuses to believe that the occupation is the fuel of the conflict the longer they will have “security issues.”
James Bradley wrote:
“As long as Israel refuses to believe that the occupation is the fuel of the conflict the longer they will have ‘security issues.’”
Yeah I thought the article was interesting and maybe real important for giving a sense of how the Right in Israel is having to shift its focus given that the “terrorism” defense is losing its luster and indeed as terrorism against it is abating. Really kind of moving towards the blatant idea that if you are against the aggrandizement of the West Bank you are per se an anti-semite. Although that’s somewhat hidden by calling at least some of it “delegitimization” and suggesting that even Israel proper is in imminent danger, which I don’t think it is.
Is a tougher sell for them for sure, and will even be harder for them to rally non-hard-Right Israeli partisans around them as closely as before.
A bit amusing too: After all the entire cry in the past has been that but for “terrorism” of course Israel wouldn’t have a problem striking a deal. Now ….
This kind of publishing is not weakening Israelis, even making them tough to fight tooth-to-nail for national survival…and also rallies the pro-zionist communtities.
This views promotes and legitimizes the struggles of the Jewish nation to fight for existence.
By the way what anti-war campaign has to do with this…this is funny; this anti-war news does not prevent war or stands against war, rather it promotes one by taking takes sides in this Israeli – Palestinian war… the style of writing is also as good as a an anti-semitic propaganda….
This publication must be an anti – (Israeli) War!
James Bradley, you cant colonize land Jews were on 1500 Years before Mohammad was born.
If the British didn’t give out the White Paper in 39, Jews would have been by far the majority.
The Arabs have 80% of the Mandate borders, plus 21 other countries.
Israel has 20%
Is Baruch Rosen a hasbara computer?
A gang, I suspect.
WTF? Who is this BR person? He’s like Nazi “intellectual “Rosenberg spieling out ancient Aryan myths, only BR sprays fourth Zionist historical myths. No regular Nazi even bothered to read Rosenberg, as I am sure, no regular Zionazi would bother to read BR, even though
Rosenberg wrote a whole book, whle this BR just parrots hasbara talking points, and not very clearly.
A troll, spamming the site.
I wish you guys would call him by his proper name: Baron Von Munchrosen.
Oh, I thought it was Baron Sacha Rosen!
Possibly an even better suggestion. I was thinking of Munchausen’s Syndrome.
Good points.
The Arab world has over 99.5% of the region, yet they complain it is not enough.
A joining of the West Bank with Jordan is the logical solution, since Jordan is a Palestinian State already.
While we’re shuffling borders around, can we give Texas back to Mexico? It’s more trouble than it’s worth.
California is not doing so well either. Perhaps it too should be returned.
While we are at it, we should return the parts of Guatemala that Mexico stole.
That is not Julian’s point. His point is that he shouldn’t have to live with Arabs – they all look the same anyway. Julian’s point is that he lives on a hill and should not have to rub shoulders with those inferior types. He is special and different – a different race and a different country.
It is not that theocracy and ethnic purity are wrong according to Julian, but rather they are to be striven for – and his white skin (or pretend white skin) show that he and his culture is of the best quality. Besides if you can’t tell them apart when you look at them what difference does it make? He certainly wouldn’t lower himself to actually asking the people of Jordan and the people of the west bank what they thought of his characterization of them.
Julian’s more likely to be Texan than Jewish. Though I suppose he can be both. The most racist, obnoxious Israeli I’ve yet encountered was both, too.
(or pretend white skin)
haha! The history of the “white” race is a fascinating topic. When did Jews become officially white? Before or after the Celts and Italians?
Sammy, I’ve wondered that myself. As near as I can tell, it happened as a result of the ’67 war.
Well the “white” race is largely bastardized as far as ethnicities go. But I think it’s pretty indisputable that a fair skinned, blond or blue-eyed Jews with English or Brooklyn or Russian accents are, for all intents and purposes, “white.” In American culture, being white really has less to do with your actual heritage and more to do your increased chances of getting a job over someone who’s not “white,” among other privileges.
“The Arab world has over 99.5% of the region, yet they complain it is not enough
No they don’t. They complain that driving people out of their homes, destroying their villages, and repopulating the area with immigrants is wrong.
Most, states in the Middle East have the borders penciled on a map by the economic and military power of Western
winners of WW1 or WW2, yes? Israel is included, except Israel wasn’t happy with that and never stopped extending its control of land, even before it declared itself a state in 1948 under the veil of accepting the UN partition borders. Why blame “the Arab world” for that? If it was up to the “arab world” back in the day, the arabs would have one giant state, as the Brits promised them to enlist Arab aid in WW1. What mass of Arabs have come from outside the Middle East to grab land there?
Should we give part of Israel to the Gypsies as their own state, safe haven? After all, the Nazis exterminated them as a matter of policy every bit as much as they did the European Jews. And the Roma have been discriminated against by Europe at least as long as the Jews.
Ooh, tag team trolling. 21 countries, Jordan is Palestine, Palestinians have no individual rights, my mythology says that some of my “spiritual” ancestors lived here a few thousand years ago and yours didn’t exist yet, terrorists, anti-Semites, culture of death, link link link, cut cut cut, paste paste paste.
Baruch Rosen,
Your name doesn’t even sound middle-eastern.
You sound positively European.
Yes Jews were in the holy lands before Mohammad, but those Jews had middle-eastern names.
Obviously your European ancestors converted to Judaism. Well bully-good for them – but that doesn’t mean YOU get to inherit Abraham’s real estate.
Who are you trying to fool with your diabolical swindle?
Taxi- What is European about the name Baruch? Last names are how many hundreds of years old? Some European Jews are darker than Middle Eastern Jews or haven’t you ever looked? But all the answers are obvious to you, so you don’t have to question anything.
WJ,
But his last name is Rosen, not Baruch.
Have you ever met a native middle-eastern with the last name of ‘Rosen’?
C’mon!
Who you trying to bullshit?!
This is all irrelevant. It’s a troll, from Trolland. It’s spamming the site, pasting in the same antiquated hate posts.
It doesn’t matter where it comes from, it needs to be gone from here.
Why can’t Zionists figure out that religions can move all around the world without having to move the people there too.
Gosh, I always thought the fact that Judaism spread so much was a recommendation for it, but I guess I was wrong.
On the other hand, the amazing ability of Middle Eastern Jews to take on the ethnicity and genetic markers and even the appearance of the people they live amongst is amazing. Scientists should study it! Maybe the ability to circumvent the common genetic heritage of mankind is connected with the ability to produce ziocaine.
“‘James Bradley, you cant colonize land Jews were on 1500 Years before Mohammad was born.”‘
And 1500 year s before that, other people were there, so what’s your point?
“The Arabs have 80% of the Mandate borders, plus 21 other countries.”
Arabs also owned 50% of the land that is now called Israel. Too bad if you dont like it. It’s called private property.
Hey, Joshua, let’s kill all those people in Jericho. God gave us a blank check; I guess Uncle Sam’s will have to do.
It may very well turn out that the MA senate election will turn out to be a game changing event in the two-state, one-state dynamic. It is quite irrelevant what most of us think about this debate since we will not influence the outcome. It comes down to whether or not sufficient facts have been placed on the ground to make the two-state solution impossible. I suspected that the process was irreversible a few years back. But Obama, by placing the settlement freeze high on his agenda made it appear that just maybe the settlement process could indeed be reversed and a viable Palestinian state built on the WB.
The MA senate election has changed all of this. Obama simply does not have the political capital to force Israel to do anything. Netanyahu is now free to pursue his goal of accelerated colonization of the WB and the seizure of East Jerusalem. The US is powerless to stop this. The Likud has won this one. For the Palestinians the most rational thing for them to do now abolish the pseudo-state institutions of the PA which for many years have been nothing more than a mechanism for buying Palestinians to rule on Israel’s behalf. Next they must reorganize themselves politically into a civilian civil rights movement and engage in non-violent struggle. The sooner these two steps are taken the better, but it will likely require a multiyear political struggle in Palestine to do this. Then serious work on building a one binational state of Israelis and Palestinians can begin.
Syvanen, you are right. Netanyahu now sees that Obama’s mojo mandate for USA domestic
application and consumption has now been stopped; and because AIPAC et al (Israel uber alles sole agenda) is needed to get any major USA domestic agenda passed, Obama will only stick up his special color of rump to take Netanyahu’s ‘s group’s circumcised dick. Whatever happens to Americans regarding, e.g.,health insurance,
the winner will be Israel. Time to throw some light on how USA domestic policy
is connected to the Israel First agenda. Don’t hold you breath this will be taught
in any US ivy league school. That’s the advantage of an ivy league education by
academic catagory, e.g. US domestic policy versus US foreign policy. The ivy league
education does not account for the Jewish exception to the rule. And, after all this time, decades now, you think this will change? How many readers of this blog awoke
so late to this issue?
Citizen, if American Jews would react to Israel’s intransigence, and do something to influence Israel, that would be the best outcome, and best for the people of Israel, because of our concern for them.
But I really doubt that will happen.
I doubt that it will happen either. Support for keeping the existing settlements in Israel has a clear majority and support for expanding them has a plurality of Israelis. American Jews may change their thinking in another decade or so, but now they can only think of the holocaust and the founding myths. That leaves the one-state solution as the only option. But it will be an ugly process.
Gee, I thought all the American senators and house reps were doing their best for Israel out of their concern for them. Aren’t they at least 75% American non-jews?
Speaking of Jewish privilege, and feelings of entitlement, and re Phil’s article on this blog 8 days ago concerning Jewish merit versus jewish nepotism, especially in contrast to WASP
actual handling of this subject over the years (since at least 1945)–maybe Phil’s wife has something to say about it–check out the comments on this web site, which republished Phil’s article of 8 days ago:
link to alethonews.wordpress.com
Holy Shit, I thought you guys were bad commentators. There was actually a guy on that blog calling others to get out their copy of the Protocols and see the ‘truth’
Nice to see the type of shit you are reading outside of Mondoweiss Citizen, you should be proud.
If Mondoweiss is too tame for you some of you guys, check out Alethonews, its a fucking gem of a website.
Taking some time out of your day from kicking puppies and mocking Palestinian children to spew out a few more ad hominems on the blog, eh? You must be a real trip in real life, cutting people down left and right with that coarse bludgeon you seem to think constitutes wit.
Chaos, I have been around Zionists my whole life, grew up in a Zionist family, plaques all up and down the hall for all kinds Zionist work.
Actually, it is more than likely not the way Yoni is in “real life”. Probably a reasonable person, maybe even a charming and captivating creature.
Until the ziocaine starts flowing! The change is startling and swift.
Gosh, I would love to hook a Zionist-supporter up to an EKG, brain scan, and get an electrode on the vagus nerve, then start talking about the one-state solution.
The ones who can’t turn it off and on end up at the settlements.
Well, the vagus nerve is also responsible for the activity known as fainting. It controls the supply of oxygen to the brain; it works well, hence all the people fainting in old Hollywood movies when they can’t bear the reality they are faced with.
Anyone can go and read all the many comments by others outside of the regular commenters on Phil’s blog; those outside comments reacted to a copy of Phil’s article–yes, one of those many outside comments did refer to the Protocols.
See, this is my point about yonira. And pots, I hope you’re reading this.
Who is this guys to judge the quality of discourse here? The only other Zionists (with the slight exception of WJ) are village idiots who simply copy-paste-spam articles from fascist right-wing websites.
Has yonira ever cited a book he might have read on I-P? Has he ever made a cogent argument defending his views? Or does he simply spew forth the usual histrionics associated w/ ignorance and radical nationalism?
He is either chastising people for using the word ‘Nazi’ while he has in the past straw-manned the arguments of regular-commentators here as an incitement to genocide of ‘the Jews’. He once told me, that despite ‘my’ intentions, ‘the Jews’ will never be exterminated (or something like that).
BTW – this hysteria, schizophrenia and hypocrisy is shared by Phil. Earlier, I called Dick a Nazi because he made an argument that essentially said that the Palestinians do not receive sufficient aid from Israel because they are ‘ungrateful’.
Ungrateful? Fuck you.
I then referenced an excerpt from an authority on the Gaza economy – Sara Roy. She concluded that Israel was PURPOSEFULLY de-developing Palestinian economy for ideological (and fear of competition) reasons.
NO SHIT!
This is my point. There are mountains of evidence to counter ZioTrolls on this blog.
Yet, apparently we’re prone to (because of the very characteristics of true Leftists and progressives – humanism, compassion, etc.) letting these things slide.
When has yonira every denounced the anti-Arab and anti-Islamic hate on this blog by his fellow Zionists? Yet, he has to slander this blog by referencing some OTHER one that Citizen linked?
FURTHERMORE, the crux of yonira’s ‘brilliant’ analysis is that a comment from some guy on that OTHER BLOG is somehow representative of the entirety of content there AS WELL AS, Mondoweiss.
So he’s judging ‘Alethonews’ by one comment, and then judging THIS blog by a comment which linked to Alethonews….
The guy is a fudging retard.
Reading WHAT, idiot? Reading another blog? If I go to YNet or Haaretz right now, I can find equally or far more intense vile racist garbage being said about Arabs and Muslims. EASILY. Does that make the entire fucking website, bad? Jackass.
What about Mondoweiss – meaning PHIL’S WRITING – is ‘extreme’ (your implication)? You are so intellectually inept and unable to cope with the ideas here so you just cry your heart out about how we’re all Jew-haters.
In fact, what blogs and websites do YOU read, genius? Tell me, yonira, what books have you read on this conflict? When have you ever said something meaningful on this blog?
When have you ever held yourself and your fellow Zionists to the same fucking standards who ‘allege’ towards us?
Never. You’re a two-faced jerk.
You made homophobic comments toward Chaos. You made a vile racist comment about the Palestinians of Gaza who were just trying to get through the day and keep their hopes up. You’ve tried to ‘own’ the intellectual achievements, as well as ‘physical properties’, of other Jews like Anna Baltzer – and yet here you are, trying to pass yourself off as some kind of moral voice?
Here’s a gem from Alethonews (we should link it now, just so you and the rest of the megaphone rejects lose your minds):
That poster seems to be Jewish actually. Anyways, the bold part is important.
You’re clearly a believer in a ‘Jewish race’ or at the least, of ‘Jewish exceptionalism’. Hence, why you made that disgusting comment towards me about Anna Baltzer when you tried to ‘co-opt’ her Jewishness.
I mean, there’s so much more to say, but I’ll leave it there. You are pathetic. What I quoted was the BEST you could come up with to slur this website. Fail, yonira is fail.
“If I go to YNet or Haaretz right now, I can find equally or far more intense vile racist garbage being said about Arabs and Muslims. EASILY. Does that make the entire fucking website, bad? Jackass.”
I read Ynet and Haaretz (the latter regularly) and yes, there’s often a ton of vile racist garbage being said by commenters about Arabs and Muslims.
hey yonira – you know what the irony is about the protocols? that some jewish people and ziocaine fellow addicts – not unlike you in conviction, moral standing or mental acuity – are working overtime to make it plausible – more than a century later! it’s like they are leafing through the pages , then implementing actions and words to validate what was once an outright calumny. Admittedly, they have some ways to go, but it’s not like israel – and friends a la dershowitz – are not working overtime! hey – with all this smarts – they may yet turn “networks” into “protocols”. Since it takes all the smarts they can master, why – they may even be a bit part for you yonira. Though, given your immense talents, these particular bits you qualify for, may be more of a cog in the great whell than a lubricant. Maybe I should warn the powers that be?
I could hardly forget that time I once met in a plane a Jewish woman (I did not expect), a wife of an Israeli consultant in our place… In our country it is our moral duty to our fellowmen specially visitors to be hospitable to them (particularly she was of ‘different color and complexion’)…and talking even to a stranger with a brief casual inquiry is a symbol of goodwill (in western countries children are warned not to talk to strangers). But in my surprise (perhaps she does not know how to speak English, or perhaps she is afraid of strangers, but I can sense some sort of ‘air of distance’ so I just took the ‘cue’ and keep my peace (and readiness to help foreign strangers in case… ), at least I have appeased my ‘cultural conscience’. I simply smile in my thoughts and took the rationality; ‘anyway Jews are Jews…’.
I don’t know about you Phil, but I don’t consider myself “Old and in the Way”.
I consider my life work not yet implemented, specifically advocacy for sustainable humane economy based on a regional approach (not global, not local).
The Mideast could use it, but it would take talking to each other to realize, moreso than agitation that makes talking to each other more difficult.
I liked your theme of “two-states already” in an earlier post. The delay of the rational is very tiring.
Er, Dick Witty, please tell us which Israeli regime leader has told us that
a 2 state solution would actually erect a sovereign Palestinian state, rather
than, essentially, a totally subservient ghetto with it’s own flag?
I liked your theme of “two-states already” in an earlier post.
That is only because you did not understand what Phil actually said. You can be so dense. It does provide us with some merriment though.
I don’t consider myself “Old and in the Way”
Another failure of self-recognition.
LOL. “I consider my life work not yet implemented…”
Gosh, you would think a Zionist who turned his kid into a chabadnik would have considered that evil sufficient unto the day, but YMMV.
I would think a Zionist that turned out a son unable to deal with either reality or the modern world would consider their life’s work done, but I guess Witty is ambitious.
Too bad Israel will not be standing as a racist and genocidal entity when you are ready to retire Witty. It will either become a democracy or self-destruct. Either way it does not matter to me.
It matters to me. Self-destructing will create a lot of victims – and will likely perpetuate injustice.
Edwin, it will be hard for Israel to outdo itself in the injustices already committed, the way Israel presently acts is a perpetuation of injustice.
No matter how bad a situation is, never underestimate the ability of human interaction to make it worse.
in other words:
Wanna bet?
All the more reason that it should be stopped from its current course Edwin.
You sound very very young. Israel will be around long after you are gone and obviously it matters very much to you.
Read my words carefully over again Julian, let them sink in, I mean what I say. It would have meant something to me if it promulgated justice and mercy, but how it was founded and how it maintains itself, means about as much as any other Hegelian nation to me. I am afraid I am of the Buber persuasion, Arendt, Einstein – this Israel I do not identify with at all, no equivocation, seriously. Do you want to see what I identify with? Read the lyrics after you watch the video (or before if you like) –
PLAYING YOUR PART
“Renegades of Funk Lyrics
No matter how hard you try, you can’t stop us now
No matter how hard you try, you can’t stop us now
we’re the renegades in this atomic age
this atomic age of renegades
we’re the renegades in this atomic age
this atomic age of renegades
Since the Prehistoric ages and the days of ancient Greece
Right down through the Middle Ages
Planet earth kept going through changes
And then the renaissance came, the times continued to change
Nothing stayed the same, but there were always renegades
Like Chief Sitting Bull, Tom Paine
Dr. Martin Luther King, Malcolm X
They were renegades of their time and age
The mighty Renegades
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
From a different solar system many many galaxies away
We are the force of another creation
A new musical revelation
And we’re on this musical mission to help the others listen
And groove from land to land singin’ electronic chants like
Zulu nation
Revelations
Destroy all nations(x4)
Now renegades are the people with their own philosophies
They change the course of history
Everyday people like you and me
We’re the renegades, we’re the people
With our own philosophies
We change the course of history
Everyday people like you and me
C’mon!
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re poppin’, shockin’, rockin’, put a side of hip-hop
Because where we’re goin’ there ain’t no stop
Poppin’, shockin’, rockin’, put’ a side of hip-hop
Because where we’re goin’ there ain’t no stop
We Poppin’,and shockin’,and rockin’, and put a side of hip-hop!
‘Cause we’re poppin’, shockin’, rockin’ put a side of hip-hop
Poppin’, shockin’, rockin’, put a side of hip-hop!
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re the renegades of funk
(funk!)
We’re teachers of the funk
And not of empty popping
We’re blessed with the force and the sight of electronics
With the bass, and the treble the horns and our vocals
‘Cause everytime I pop into the beat we get fresh!
There was a time when our music
Was something called a Big Street beat
People would gather from all around
To get down to the big sound
You had to be a renegade in those days
To command of the dance floor
Say jam sucka!(JAM SUCKA)
Say jam sucka!(JAM SUCKA)
Say groove sucka (GROOVE SUCKA)
Now groove sucka (GROOVE SUCKA)
Say dance sucka (DANCE SUCKA)
Say dance sucka (DANCE SUCKA)
Say move sucka (MOVE SUCKA)
Now move sucka (MOVE SUCKA)
We’re the renegades of funk (funk)
We’re the renegades of funk (funk)
We’re the renegades of funk (funk)
We’re the renegades of funk (funk)
We’re the renegades of funk (funk)
We’re the renegades of funk (funk)
We’re the renegades of funk (funk)
We’re the renegades of funk (funk)”
Wow, talk about spamming, where is the call for his removal!
yonira the ad hominem bot strikes again.
Julian? No need to ban Julian, he’s a harmless idiot, and useful for displaying the hatefulness of the typical Zionist.
What spamming? lol
He posted one comment.
How is that spamming?
Israel can be around as long as it wants Julian. The Palestinians aren’t going anywhere either.
Yeah, everybody knows now that smallpox can be passed along by gifted blankets, even with the best of intentions.
Wow! groundbreaking article in a Jewish Student magazine. I can’t believe the major networks didn’t cover this. It should be the lead for the 6:00 news.
Of course with the Jews controlling the world this won’t happen.
I forgot to add young Josh Levey and Michael Kaplan are just incredibly smart and cool.
This is really pathetic. The article was tepid for one state at best. A couple of Jewish kids are against Israel and it’s groundbreaking? Radical Jewish students, how unusual.
After the absolute failure of the Gaza freedom March I guess the Israel haters need something to cheer them up.
Ouch, you sound super desperate Jules. Maybe watch some Exodus? Might cheer you up.
Cliff, how many times do I have to say it? ” ziocaine produces a states of vicarious brutal grandiosity alternating with periods of whiny paranoia, and extended use produces a moral and ethical collapse”
And always the illusion that Israel has all the privileges and perogatives of a State, with none of the drawbacks. They even demand that people not lie about her! I mean, talk about living in the clouds.
I wonder if one of the used body-parts dealers, err, I mean hospitals in Israel would fund a study?
“And always the illusion that Israel has all the privileges and perogatives of a State, with none of the drawbacks.”
Yes, a key point, succinctly put–so far, thanks to Uncle Sam, the fantasy has become real; the question is, for how much longer?
Of course, Uncle Sam, the enabler of the spoiled child, has been infected with the same sense of entitlement–copying Israel. Do we need another sit-com
satirizing a Modern Family? Reality TV at its finest, called diplomacy, exhibiting the frail egos protected by economic and military force?
China does it so it must be ok.
I wish I were as confident as Phil that this “Jewish intifada” is really brewing. In fact, Jewish anti-Zionism has been around as long as Zionism, and support for it from Jews in the US and elsewhere has ebbed and flowed several times. (One pertinent fact: the “latest” Gavron book the New Voices article focuses on is not exactly new – it was published in English in 2003.) For sure such ideas are currently gaining some ground among US Jews, especially young ones, in response to Gaza, the wall, etc. But as far as I can see, we’re still talking about a tiny minority. If it’s taken this much Israeli brutality to produce this much movement among American Jews, I hate to think what it would take to turn around the majority!
Phil isn’t confident. He knows he is losing. He is desparately trying to whip a dead horse.
Find any weapons of mass destruction? Oh, I’m sure they’ll turn up any day now.
Julian, do you really want to describe Israel as a “dead horse”?
Come to think of it, that’s probably the most apt comment Julian’s made, ever. :)
“‘States of Denial’ (I think they punted on the headline)”…
I think the title is pretty witty. What’s wrong with it?
I think the fact that it’s plural, and they couldn’t say “State of Denial”.
The old equivalency canard, and a couple others.
I agree with Mooser here–the fact that’s it implies the equivalency.
If you need Israel to form you’re identity, in its current state and you defend its multiple atrocities, what does that say about you? I don’t need this, and anybody who does has some serious problems.
“and anybody who does has some serious problems”
How dare you say Jews have problems! Don’t you know Hitler killed about 6 million of us in a brutal Holocaust? Where would we get any problems?
Israel is a country that has absorbed astronomic numbers of Russian refugees
That is not an accurate characterization.
While a small group of them may have left due to anti-Semitism, the vast majority immigrated to Israel after the collapse of the Soviet Union seeking a better standard of living and a more stable economy. Refugees, they were not.
Good point, Avi.
“But the one-state solution is something that neither Judt nor Gavron is tied to. It is a much more difficult goal for them than it was for Brith Shalom, and both realize it would be a Herculean task.”
That makes little sense. It’s Judt’s whole deal. What he has been peddling for years. Now he’s not tied to it? Has he realized it’s never going to happen and everything he’s written about it for the past 7 years is total crap? Not as bad and unlikely as the 2 Arab state “solution” but still basically useless worthless crap.
The generational battle ahead (amongst American Jews) will be primarily between those apathetic to Israel’s existence and those committed to Israel’s existence. Those opposed to Israel’s existence will play a larger role than antiZionists of the post war period (1945 until today), but still their numbers and political influence will not be enough to overthrow the support for Israel in the wider community. (A major depression or a major political realignment or the turmoil that would follow an attack on Iran, for example, might shake things up sufficiently to bring about a real change, but the incremental generational changes will more likely lead to alienation from the community rather than a revolution within the community.)
What’s going to change in Israel? Will they all of a sudden decide they want 5 million Arabs “returning” to Israel? That Hamas is made up of peaceful guys, they can work with? How about “one state” is the way to go?
Julian writes: What’s going to change in Israel? Will they all of a sudden decide they want 5 million Arabs “returning” to Israel?
No, but one day Israelis will all of a sudden wake up one day and realize that they live in a nation with 7 million Palestinians (i.e. current population between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean). And if the current Jewish emigration continues (1 million living abroad and counting) they will wake to realization that Jews are a minority.
And then we can let true democracy run its course and that will be that. In theory.
Actually, far better to give one man, one vote now.
It will be less disruptive now (and a good oportunity to build an inclusive political structure).
It will be tougher later, when the numbers are not so even.
If Israelis didn’t want to live next door to Arabs, they shouldn’t have decided to plant their Zionist colony in the middle of them.
I’m sure there must have been some Arabenrein islands around for the buying or taking.
Ultimately though, the problem remains: A Jewish state discriminates against non Jews.
That means those who convert to different religions or who marry “out” will be discriminated against.
The idea of a Jewish state in any shape or form is discriminatory – as is a Muslim or Christian state.
Edwin, Israel already goes further than that and discriminates against Ashkenazi Jews, against non-Orthodox Jews, against nonwhite Jews, against secular Jews, against leftist Jews, and against Jewish women.
That’s the problem with a state based on discrimination and segregation – it keeps spreading and finding new targets.
Hmmm. Maybe I wasn’t as clear as I wished to be.
Of course you are correct. It is interesting to try to figure out in what ways Israel does not engage in discrimination.
Ashkenazi Jews, against non-Orthodox Jews, against nonwhite Jews
I don’t mean to come across as argumentative or picky, but Ashkenazi Jews are European/Western Jews, i.e. white Jews.
My error, I meant to type: non-Ashkenazi Jews
Gosh, and those stupid Rabbis at my Reform Temple told us we should support Civil Rights because if it was possible and legal to discriminate, the legal discrimination could be extended to Jews any time it became convenient. How could they have gone so wrong? If only I had been fortunate enough to have a real Zionist religious education, I would have known that discriminating against Afro-Americans will ensure that nobody has any discrimination left over for Jews, and in fact, the Jews should join the whites (being very general with terminology here) in discriminating, so they would love us and consider us allies.
Where’s the movement to bring democracy to Muslim States? The most repressive Muslim countries are very big on dictating how unfair a Jewish State is.
Which Muslim state are you referring to that is occupying someone else’s land, demolishing homes, murdering the indigenous population and flouting a 100 UN Resolutions and the Geneva Conventions Julian?
Right, Julian, nothing’s going to change in Israel so long as the (increasingly impoverished) USA masses continue to blindly write blank checks to Israel not matter what Israel does, so long as the US regime keeps
vetoing the world’s attempts to make Israel accountable via the UNSC.
It’s going to be fun to watch you get blindsided.
I agree with your analysis, WJ, which brings me to the conflict between unrealistic goals and the moral duty not to make “realistic” predictions self-fulfilling. The Rabbis got it right when they said “The task is not yours to complete, but you are not free to disregard it.” The Rabbis also expressed another relevant concept: “the duty to protest”, regardless of the effect such protest will have. BDS (as part of a balanced diet) satisfies these and other less-ambitious, but no less-important goals and obligations.
I also agree with WJ’s analysis, and with Schmuel’s commentary on it. An attack on Iran, whatever it’s immediate outcome, will set up increased smoldering, later the forest fire, effectively WW3. As with the other WWs, no principal initial players, orchestrators, appeasers, predicted
the end result.
Shmuel, I love these quotes. Which rabbis said these things? When? What else did they say?
James,
The first quote (“The task is not yours to complete …”) is a direct quote from the Mishnah (Avot 2,19), redacted in the late 2nd century CE, although the maxim itself is attributed to Rabbi Tarfon, who probably lived in the late first – early second century CE. Avot has a lot of wisdom in it, along with a lot of crap (by modern standards, of course). The trick is in being able to tell the difference ;-)
The second quote is a bit more complicated. It is rooted in Leviticus 19:17 (“Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart; thou shalt surely rebuke thy neighbour, and not bear sin because of him”), and Ezekiel 3:18-21. The Gemara (loose commentary on the Mishnah, and the later part of the Talmud, redacted 4th-5th century CE) discusses the precise circumstances in which this duty applies, leaving some doubt (divergent opinions) regarding cases in which protest would appear to be futile. Rabbi Eliezer of Metz (12th century) explained in his Sefer Yer’eim (223), that we are obligated to protest against wrongdoing, even when we know that our protests will fall on deaf ears. Although this view was not universally accepted among Halakhists (eg. Jacob of Coucy – 13th cent.), the concept of “the duty to protest” became a part of popular tradition, embraced (in a broader, ethical sense) by Maskilim such as Ahad Ha’am as well.
Although some may find this detailed answer boring or irrelevant, I felt it was important to point out the far-from-monolithic historical process of Halakhah (Jewish law and religious tradition). Halakhah and Jewish tradition in general (like that of all religions) certainly includes a good many objectionable things, but it is not as simple as finding a few real or poorly translated quotes from a 1,700-year-old text and drawing conclusions from them about “Jewish values”, “ingrained Jewish memes” or the “ideological basis of Zionism”- especially when the vast majority of Jews throughout history (today more than ever) have actually been ignorant of these texts. It’s about the evolution of religion and culture, as well as the difference between what is “written”, and real life. We should also keep this in mind the next time a hasbara troll pulls out the “monkey” quote from the Quran, or even (mutatis mutandis) blathers on about some holy charter or other.
Absolutely fascinating, and thanks. By the way, if Ahad Ha’am were alive today, where do you think he would stand?
Thanks for your detailed response, Schmuel–it was well worth reading and your extrapolation on it concerning the Quran is well taken too. I think the interpretation of Christianity through the ages is equally complicated. What is not that complicated is, e.g., the impact of the Crusades at the hands of a Christian sword, or the Inquisition, and of Arab curved blades, and the impact of Israel’s American gifted hi-tek weapons on the Palestinian arabs. Or, for that matter, the impact of Uncle Sam’s more heterogeneously sponsored Military-Industrial-economic tools on the “third world.”
James,
I’m not an expert on Ahad Ha’am, and it’s been a few years since I last read anything of his but, for what it’s worth, I’ll have a go anyway. Ahad Ha’am was a 19th-century European romantic nationalist. Many of his objections to political Zionism were tactical and pragmatic – although his ethical philosophy should not be completely discounted. Had he lived to the ripe old age of 150 (as opposed to just hopping by from the past), I’m guessing he would have reluctantly accepted Ben-Gurion’s state, rejoiced in some of its aspects and torn his hair out over others. In short, he would probably have been a liberal Zionist – with the added bonus of a few “I told you so”s.
Definitely a two-stater.
A more coherent version of Richard Witty?
That would be an oxymoron, but I get your point. Ahad Ha’am would of course have the excuse of having been past middle age at the time of the October Revolution.
I can translate that!
“but still their numbers and political influence will not be enough to overthrow the support for Israel in the wider community.”
Translation: “You better watch out, cause we got all the born-agains and Christian Zionists on our side!”
Yeah, last I read there were 30 million Christian Zionists and they’re very organized.
OTH, my single regular contact with an authentic Christian Evangelical with an inquiring mind (but for her total belief in her Christian God and Jesus) says she
has doubts the Israel spoken of in the Old Testament is the same as the current state of Israel. Then you got how many adult gentile Americans who’ve never heard anything about Israel other than classic hasbara? Not to mention those cult-like
towel things so many Arabs wear on their heads or covering their face except for eye-slits? And then, to top it off, we have Wolf Blitzer. In fact, we have every single MSM news anchor and cable TV anchor, not matter on the left, middle, or right,
all singing as one from the musical sheet entitled “Israel is good food for you all; it’s the best diet possible!”
Read ‘Spiritual Warfare: The Politics of the Christian Right’ by Sara Diamond.
I just got it the other day. It’s very detailed (14 years of research) and explores the intricacies (activists, leaders, whose names you would not know).
The collusion between the Christian Right and our general foreign policy is very dangerous. The stuff they did in Guatemala for example.
Let me tell you, this rift is not only happening in the USA, but throughout all the countries in which we reside. However, the old entrenched generation refuses to listen, and keeps trying to sell us this bill of goods. It is not just a “age gap” issue, it is a real issue of substantive matter, and people are not going to put up with it much longer. We don’t want to live this way.
SECOND THOUGHTS ABOUT THE PROMISED LAND
This was written several years ago, and it has gotten much worse now. So much so, that in my view it has gotten closer to a form of real resistance. You do not speak for us, your acts do not reflect of sentiments or values, and you better learn to universalize the “Never Again.”
Can you hear it? Can you see it? I chose this because I want you to identify with it.
REAL CHANGE
Thanks, VR; indeed the times they are a changin’ (once again), blowin’ in the wind,
and it seems there will always be masters of war… There’s no business, like War business.
I wonder how the civil rights movement would have done if it was all about the black intifada or the white intifada.
The single state of Palestine, with equal rights for all; Jews, Muslims and Christians (and the right of return for Palestinian refugees) was the original objective of the PLO, given up reluctantly for the 2 state solution sometime in the 1980s, when the PLO made some major unrequited concessions.
The Oslo Accords seemed to be a very major step forward, but any sense of optimism (which there genuinely was, for a time) was crushed very quickly by the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and the accession of one Binyamin Netanyahu as head of the Israeli government in 1996. He rolled back any illusions of progress., and essentially finished off the idealistic 2 state solution, 14 years ago.
But Oslo was very airy-fairy; only an expression of intent, and the US simply resigned from putting pressure on either side, although there were a few high profile meetings (Camp David, Taba, and Annapolis) where the US continued to put pressure on the Palestians to concede.
The solution to the problem does not lie with American Jews, but with realist American powers-that-be behind the scenes who finally decide that blind support of Israel is not worth the trouble and treasure.
The problems arising in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, when the current senile rulers finally pop it, may prove to be the catalyst.
Jordan made a peace treaty with Israel after Oslo, in 1994, and has almost certainly regretted it ever since. They are now treated as an industrial park, with cheap labour, and free Israeli tourism has ruined some of the most awe-inspiring wonders of the world.
Petra, which was built by a purely Arab culture long before Islam, which I visited quite alone as the only visitor, in 1975, and many times after that, has been turned into an Israeli tourist Disneyland.
People resent it when their own culture is prostituted, and eventually they will turn on the new world order.
“The solution to the problem does not lie with American Jews, but with realist American powers-that-be behind the scenes who finally decide that blind support of Israel is not worth the trouble and treasure.”
Well, those American powers that be don’t appear to be on the horizon, but if they are, they better equip themselves to handle being called an “anti-semite” (or “self-hating” jew). What is anti-semitism anyway? Is even G-D of the old testament an anti-semite?
link to palestinethinktank.com
M & W, Carter, Paul, Nader, Finklestein, the chief of the UN Report on the Gaza
turkey shoot–all anti-semites or self-hating jews?
Americans will also have to rectify their heavy bias against the Muslim religion:
link to guardian.co.uk
Richard Parker,
I always so thoroughly enjoy your postings.
But Oslo was wrong down to the bone – because it forced the Palestinians to negotiate the non-negotiable, which is to accept/legitimize the swindling Israeli claims to any part of historic Palestine. At best, to accept ruling over only some 23% of their original land. Morality aside, the numbers crunched to the total disadvantage of the Palestinians – again.
The suffering Euro Jews have no permanent place in the middle east. Hard as the Zionist west tries to shove them, force-feed it down the throats of middle easterners, the people of the middle east still refuse to swallow. And they will never swallow.
Time itself has demonstrated this. All that’s happened out of this force-feeding is the region has become more radicalized, more ready to fight off Zionism.
By now, sixty-four years of negotiations later, the majority of middle easterners have come to believe the armed struggle is the struggle that gets you results.
Everything else that wears a suit and wants to talk/negotiate is just another blah blah blah wasting their time while the Israelis steal more Arab land.
“….while the Israelis steal more Arab land.”
Yes, that’s where the rubber hits the road. Sitting Bull knew this well. OTH, the Nuremberg trials tried to prevent this in the future–waging wars of aggression
was the criminal charge that included all the others. Israel and the USA since then
have ignored this, throwing up smoke, puking the false security of “preemptive war.”
The new model for the USA and Israel has been: Offense is defense. Makes me wonder when our congress will change the name of the US military forces to
USDF.
Of course Goering knew all this. That’s why he was always smirking while sitting
in the criminal bench at Nuremberg.
Richard Parker says this.
The single state of Palestine, with equal rights for all; Jews, Muslims and Christians (and the right of return for Palestinian refugees) was the original objective of the PLO, given up reluctantly for the 2 state solution sometime in the 1980s, when the PLO made some major unrequited concessions.
Richard get a brain.
If you listen to me you will learn something.
Every minority in the Arab world is treated like garbage. Aparthied at the worst, which hypocrits like you say nothing about. ( Kurds, Coptics, Black Christians of Sudan, Berbers, Chaldeans etc.
The Arabs have 99% of the land in the Mideast.
2nd, you lie about the PLO and their intentions.
Can you read!
The goal of Fatah (in their own words) is very clear on their website:
link to e-fateh.org
Article (12) – total liberation of Palestine and the liquidation of the Zionist state economically and politically, militarily and culturally.
Article (13) – the establishment of independent democratic Palestinian state with full sovereignty over all Palestinian territories [no two state solution anywhere in the goals of Fatah]
Yasser Arafat, January 30, 1996, (Speech) “The Impending Total Collapse of Israel,” Stockholm, Sweden (1,2)
We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem . . . All the Jews who will get compensation will travel to America . . . We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem….You understand that we plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State . . . I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews. We now need all the help we can get from you in our battle for a united Palestine under total Arab-Muslim domination!”
Faisal Husseini: Oslo Is A Trojan Horse
In Husseini’s last interview with the the popular Egyptian newspaper el Arav in 2001.
Husseini said, it is the obligation of all the Palestinian forces and factions to see the Oslo Accords as “temporary” steps or “gradual” goals, because in this way, “We are setting an ambush for the Israelis and cheating them.”
He also differentiated between, “strategic,” long term, “higher” goals, and “political,” short term goals dependent on “the current international establishment, balance of power, capabilities, and variable considerations that change from time to time.” Nevertheless, the Palestinians have been forced to temporarily concentrate on “gradual diplomatic goals.” However, the main goal is the “liberation of all Palestine from the river (Jordan) to the sea (Mediterranean),” even if this requires a struggle that will continue “1,000 years, or generations upon generations.”
“If you listen to me you will learn something.”‘
That’s funny. At least you have a sense of humor BR.
“‘Every minority in the Arab world is treated like garbage”‘
False. Iranian Jews are treated so well, that they refuse to accept bribes from Israle to migrate there.
“‘The Arabs have 99% of the land in the Mideast.”‘
Irrelevant. No one has any right to steal 1% of the land from the US and argue that it’s fair becasue there is 99 remaining.
“’2nd, you lie about the PLO and their intentions.’”
Israel signed a peace deal with the PLO. The PLO recognized Israel.
Of course, Israel violated the agreement.
“Yasser Arafat, January 30, 1996, (Speech) “The Impending Total Collapse of Israel”"
Before Congress, Olmert said he believed in Israel’s enternal right to all the land from Jordan to the sea.
“Husseini said, it is the obligation of all the Palestinian forces and factions to see the Oslo Accords as “temporary” steps or “gradual” goals, because in this way”‘
“we must expel all Arabs and take their places”
David Ben-Gurion, commenting on the proposed Peel Commission Partition plan in 1937
“The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.“ Davis Ben-Gurion, in 1936
You see Baruch, 2 of us can play this game.
Trouble is Shingo most of your quotes are phonies. Good try though.
There’s no troube Julian.
All of those quotes are legitimate, which is why you haven’t even tried to idenitify which are phonies.
It’s a common tactic usied by Hasbrats on this blog Julian, and we can all see right though you.
I could say good try, but it wasn’t.
The obstacle to peace remains Arab terrorism perpetrated by Arabs to annihilate an Israel of any size. And the inability of Arabs to live side by side with Jews, or anyone else
“The obstacle to peace remains Arab terrorism perpetrated by Arabs to annihilate an Israel of any size. ”
Arabs lives peacefully, side by side with Jews and Christians until the European Zionist immiogrants began arriving.
It was the Zionists who refused to live side by side with not only Arabs, but Chritians too.
Israel Zangwill, who had visited Palestine in 1897 and came face-to-face with the demographic reality. He stated in 1905 in a speech to a Zionist group in Manchester that:
“Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ….. [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7- 10, and Righteous Victims, p. 140)
Hear that Baruch? In 1905, the Zionists were talking about driving out by the sword the Arab tribes.
And clearly, the Zionists had no intentino of sharing Palestine. Moshe Smilansky wrote in Hapoel Hatzair in the spring edition of 1908:
“Either the Land of Israel of Israel belongs in the national sense to those Arabs who settled there in recent years [before 1908], and then we have no place there and we must say explicitly: The land of our fathers is lost to us. [Or] if the land of Israel belongs to us, the the Jewish people, then our national interests come before all else. . . . it is not possible for one country to serve as the homeland of two peoples.” (Righteous Victims, p. 58)
So sorry to burst your Zionist bubble.
Perhaps you need to update your talking points.
Israel was made by Jewish terrorism. If somebody took your home and your land and
cast you adrift for generations with nothing much than the clothes on your back, or penned you in and slowly starved you, might you in utter desperation eventually become a terrorist? Just asking.
link to rense.com
The part that Baron von Munchrosen never gets to, is that he considers it the US’s job to pay for it all.
Citizen, since Baron von Munchrosen doesn’t like your selection of links, we could easily substitute:
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
to show that ZIonism depended on terrorism from the beginning.
Thanks, Mooser. That’s a very informative link you gave me/us here coming regularly to this blog. Why do we here have to keep endlessly giving actual facts to
to the Hasbara crowd? It gets tiresome, especially since all they pontificate about
has been refuted so many times on this blog. They just keep saying the same BS
as if their spiel has not been debunked time and time again on this blog for over two years. I guess the answer is they, like Hitler and his PR minions and fake analysts knew, like Bernays, mentor to Goebbels, that if you repeat the big lies
endlessly, those lies will be accepted as truth. It becomes a habit, like cigaret
smoking. Or Ziocain. I should talk, I know I am killing myself with my cigaret smoking.
See, Citizen, my link has lots of pictures, so possibly Baron von Munchrosen might be able to grasp it. He doesn’t do so good with words and stuff.
BTW, beautiful and haunting pictures. But scroll down to the type-script report from the British Colonial Office in Palestine. It details, literally hour by hour, how the Zionists mortared the Arab civilian neighborhoods to kill and terrify the residents into leaving.
Baron, have you read the article on Israeli apologetics yet? It’s at:
link to jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com
Do you realise how many more posts you could post if all you had to type was; 1! 1! 2! 4! 3! 3! and more 1! and a whole lotta 3, and 4!
Why you could cover every thread!
Citizen quoting from the Nazi Rense site and quoting Neo Nazi Ted Pike.
This shows how desperate Citizen has become.
link to adl.org
Ted Pike/National Prayer Network – Affiliations
Pike maintains a broad-based network of anti-Semitic, white supremacist and conspiracy-theory oriented affiliations to broadcast his anti-Semitic message. Pike has given numerous interviews to anti-Semitic and racist radio and television hosts. For example, he has made appearances on the Internet radio show run by Daryl Bradford Smith, an American living in France who publishes articles on his Website that name “Zionists” as the “masterminds” of the September 11 terrorist attacks.
He has been a guest on the Tennessee-based radio show, “The Political Cesspool,” on which neo-Nazis and white supremacists regularly appear. Additionally, Pike has appeared on conspiracy-oriented Internet radio shows that often feature anti-Semites and extremists, including the “Jeff Rense Program,” and former Michigan militia figure John Stadtmiller’s “National Intel Report.” Pike has also appeared on “Current Issues,” a weekly cable television show hosted by Palestinian-American Hesham Tillawi, which regularly features Holocaust deniers and white supremacists.
Pike has a long-standing affiliation with American Free Press (AFP), an anti-Semitic conspiracy-oriented newspaper that prints articles written by Holocaust deniers, racists, and conspiracy theorists and promotes groups, events, books, videos, and individuals espousing such ideologies and theories. Willis Carto, AFP’s publisher, founded the now-defunct Liberty Lobby, an anti-Semitic propaganda organization, and also currently publishes The Barnes Review, a Holocaust denial magazine.
Pike is an AFP staff member, having served on its Western Regional Bureau since the Regional and International Bureaus were formed on October 29, 2001. He continues to serve on staff with several anti-Semites, conspiracy theorists, and Holocaust deniers including Mark Glenn, an anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, AFP writer who authored a pamphlet blaming Israel for the September 11 terrorist attacks, the 2001 anthrax mailings and the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Pike also serves with George Kadar, an AFP reporter, associate of white supremacist David Duke, and active participant in the white supremacist Stormfront Internet forum. Another problematic figure that has served alongside Pike on the AFP Bureaus is Eustace Mullins, a prolific anti-Jewish propagandist.
AFP printed one of Pike’s articles in its first issue in August 2001. In that same issue, the newspaper advertised Pike’s video entitled Hate Laws: Making Criminals of Christians, which premiered at a conference run by The Barnes Review. In addition to AFP reprinting and promoting Pike’s works, Pike authored an article “exclusive to AFP” in its November 5, 2001, issue. Michael Collins Piper, an anti-Semitic AFP writer, authored a praiseworthy review of Pike’s 2003 anti-Semitic video Why The Mid-East Bleeds, in the April 7, 2003 issue of AFP.
Pike provides a link to AFP’s Website on the National Prayer Network (NPN) Website’s “Links” section. Pike also links the NPN Website to various other extremist Websites “as sources of further information concerning the thread of Zionist control.” These include links to Daryl Bradford Smith’s site and to the site of Criminal Politics, a virulently anti-Semitic, conspiracy-oriented publication. He also “strongly recommends” visiting Web sites such as those belonging to the Arizona-based anti-Semitic group We Hold These Truths, the virulently anti-gay group Repent America, and Texe Marrs, a conspiracy theorist with a record of anti-Semitism.
Just as Pike affiliates himself with the radio shows, cable TV shows, and newspapers of a variety of extremists, so too do extremists often post Pike’s articles and sell his videos on their own Websites. In July 2006, the now-defunct neo-Nazi National Vanguard Website featured an article, co-authored by Pike and its own staff, which claimed that Jews are plotting to control the content on the Internet and that Jewish-run telecommunication companies want to initiate policies that would favor Jews and other “protected minorities” over other groups. Numerous other extremist individuals and groups have posted his materials on-line, including conspiracy theorist Jeff Rense; Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel; white supremacist David Duke; the neo-Nazi Vanguard News Network; the virulently anti-Semitic Websites Jew Watch and Ziopedia; Western Voices World News, the news Website of the neo-Nazi European Americans United; the neo-Nazi National Alliance; and the Yahoo group of the neo-Nazi National Socialist Movement.
Extremists have utilized Pike’s work in other ways. In 2005, the neo-Nazi National Vanguard produced an eight-part DVD entitled, The Dark Side of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of B’nai B’rith, filled with anti-Semitic propaganda. Included in the DVD was Pike’s anti-Semitic 2000 video entitled Hate Laws: Making Criminals of Christians.
When Pike produced The Other Israel (1987), a professionally made, anti-Semitic video, Louisiana white supremacist James K. Warner and the Institute for Historical Review, a Holocaust denial organization, offered it for sale. Though 20 years old, anti-Semitic individuals, groups, and Websites still promote and/or sell Pike’s video, including Holocaust denier Mark Farrell, Texe Marrs, the neo-Nazi National Alliance, and Ziopedia.
Look at the message, Mondoweiss readers, whatever the source. However, I agree
that we should always consider the source–make sure you investigate the source
of all the Israel Firsters commenting on this blog as well. Beware of smoke screen source entity names that would suggest those sources are neutral when it comes to American or World interests.
I’m referring to links hasbara agents refer to as support for their racist notions.
Citizen Israel was made by the Israel army foiling the attacking Arab armies attempt to annihilate the Jews, the way the Arabs have annihilated the Black Christians of Sudan and the Kurds.
There is no such thing as Palestine.
There was never in history a state called Palestine governed by Palestinians.
There were only 141,000 people in the entire country in 1882.
Mark Twain documented how backwards the country was in 1867.
Citizen is upset cause Jews reclaimed their homeland from the Arab invaders, who stole the Mideast and North Africa from the Native people’s.
“Mark Twain documented”
Now, that’s funny! I bet they’ve got Huck and Jim’s raft in a civil rights museum in Missouri, too!
And the current state of Israel is not the same entity as the tribe of Israel spoken of in the Old Testament (when nation state were not even conceivable). OTH it is arguable that the reason the biblical G-D of that old testament brought down sorrow on the ancient Jews is still applicable to modern
Israeli activity since its inception and implementation, and current actions and inactions. So why do average Americans (98% Gentile) have to pay with their blood and treasure for Barach Rosen’s fantasy? I bet he is living right now in the USA,
protected by USA goy police, and by USA protected anti-human agencies such as the ADL. Wake up, you goy families with sons and daughters fighting and dying in the Middle
for Zionist causes. And wake up, average Americans, to the fact you are paying literally for Zionist cause, when most of you have never even had a discussion
with a single Zionist Jew.
Jericho (Arabic: أريحا Ārīḥā [ʔæˈriːħɑː
Oh yeah, BR has got history right. Any one want to see how the Jewish tribe has a right to the land of Israel? The Israelis say they have a right base on holy scripture–check it out in the Jewish bible. My concern is that that Americans fund this
and allow their own troops to support this tribal justification in the direct face
of US values, that is, in the face of USA anti-tribalism.
if the arabs tried to annihilate the Jews, then the Jews are annihilate the Arabs.
Arabs are not killing Christians of Sudan and the Kurds. Jurds happen to be Sunnis.
Palestine has existed since the Romans. The was no such thing as Israle until 1948.
There was never in history a state called Israel governed by Israelies.
There were only half a million people in the Palestine 1900. Most were Palestinians. 10% were Jewish and most of them did not want Israel to be created.
Mark Twain’s false account was debunked byZionists themselves.
The Palestinians were indigenous to the landl. It was teh Jewish immogrants who were the invaders. They are and have always been the native peoples. Even the ancitnet Judeans weren’t the first to arrive. Jeruslame wasn’t even built by Jews.
The Arabs of today controls 21 nations… 99½ percent of the ENTIRE Middle East land mass while Israel occupies only a 1/2 of 1 percent speck on this same map. But that’s still too much land for the Arabs to spare. They want it all. As they shout out, “We will fight to our last drop of blood for for every last grain of sand!” And that is ultimately what all the fighting is about today. And no matter how many land concessions the Israelis might make for “peace,” it will never be enough! Any peace treaty between Israel and the Arab world are ultimately meaningless. Even the Israeli-Egyptian and Israeli-Jordanian peace treaties are holding on by a single thread and if you were to read their government-controlled newspapers you’d think they were still at war with Israel!
I know – they all look the same to you. And I’m sure that some of your best friends are… Still you can improve yourself.
Try saying the word Palestinian
Go ahead. It really isn’t that hard.
You know:
P
surely you can make a puu sound.
I knew you could do it.
now for the next bit -
al
not so hard is it.
is
you know just like the word is.
t
we use the letter all the time. You can manage it I assure you.
in
its another word that is common. You’re doing great.
Ok now for the tricky part:
ian
Its a funny combination of letters – like the letter e with the word an attached to the end. Take it slowly and you can do it.
Now put it together and you get:
Palestinian – excellent. It’s ok if you have to spit at the same time. I understand.
Israel has never made lamnd concession for peace. Isrel continies to steal more land and vilate international law. Isrle stole 90% of the land as has offered to give 20% of it back in pieces.
Israel rejects any peace treaty between Israel and the Arab world, even though the Arab world is offering Israle everything they want, becasue Israel has always favored land over peace.
“‘The Arabs of today controls 21 nations… 99½ percent of the ENTIRE Middle East land mass while Israel occupies only a 1/2 of 1 percent speck on this same map. But that’s still too much land for the Arabs to spare.”‘
Hey Baruch,
If I go and take Manhatten by force, so you think the American public will let me, seeing as they get to keep the other 99% of the United States? Would it be fair to say they are unreasonable for not letting me take it and claim it as my homeland?
No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs and their Islam were even born!
The liar Citizen cant rebuke any of this.
I’ve got news for you, there never such a thing as the “ancient nation of Israel”.
The idea of nation states was born after the French Revolution.
Jewish empire???? Do you mean there was more than one village? You really are full of it. Then too, your idea that the Arabs would have to take care of business at home if they weren’t blustering about zionism is silly. If Israel didn’t have the Palestinians to keep them focused they would be busy shooting each other. Get a grip. Are you channeling Baruch Goldstein or Yigal Amir?
Yeah, BR is for sure channeling Baruch Goldstein. There’s the old Jewish custom with
names.
Quaint, BR, how you equate the biblical tribe of Israel with the modern state of Israel.
“‘No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land”‘
There has never been any such thing as the Nation of Israel. That is a biblical myth.
Israel never existed before 1948. A small Jewish tribe exitend in Jeruslamen, but most converted to Islam.
”A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs and their Islam were even born!”
Yes an empire so mighty that all we have to show for it’s existence are a few shard of broken pottery, while we have whole builsings of the civlizations that existed before that ‘”mighty empire”.
How odd?
Without a conflict with Israel, many Arab countries will be forced to deal more with home grown problems, which is something they fear the most. Galvanizing their populations to focus their anger on the Jews is their best way to deflect attention.
This is why the Arabs always refuse peace.
Olmert found this out.
You really want to bring up Olmert? Wouldn’t it be better to let that particular sleeping dog (with his fleas) lie?
Okay, have it your way! Olmert it is.
Since you’re incapable and unwilling to accept facts and evidence that contradict your OPINIONS, then what exactly do you hope to accomplish by continuing to post that drivel here?
Do you really think you’re providing some sort of “balance” to this website? You’re not. You’re providing propaganda with which many on this site are familiar. Also, there are quite a few Israelis here, including myself. Do you even live in Israel at the moment? Or do you think you’re a know-it-all while sitting 8,000 miles away observing from a distance?
If you need to feel important at the moment because you’ve got nothing better to do, then go volunteer for a worthy cause instead of some biblical mirage.
Do you think you’re going to “convert” anyone to your camp by repeatedly posting refuted lies and twisted logic?
No one is listening to you. At most, commenters read the first line or two of your posts and then skip ahead.
Get a clue already.
“Also, there are quite a few Israelis here, including myself. Do you even live in Israel at the moment?”
Avi, are you implying that many people in Israel are not willing to suffer, and see their children suffer, not to mention the Palestinians suffer, to indulge the ziocaine fantasies of Americans Zionist supporters? Why you ungrateful bastard! You better wise up and remember where your money comes from.
Remember, too, Avi, there’s nothing to be scared of. No matter what happens to Israel, Baron von Munchrosen won’t suffer, he’s in America! So what’re you waiting for? Go get them Arabs!
All I’m saying is that his views are clearly detached from reality, especially the reality on the ground. Most Israelis are as detached from reality as he is, but that doesn’t excuse the fact that he sits comfortably in his apartment somewhere in North America spewing that nonsense and pretending as if he will be affected by whatever happens in the Middle East one way or the other.
Besides, Avi, what the hell do you know about Israel? Are you in America? Do you belong to AIPAC? Are you even in Hadassah, like the charming Yonira?
Lemme inform you something Avi- you may be an Israeli, sure, but Baruch Rosen is a ZIONIST! After all, Israel is full of Arabs! You see any Arabs in AIPAC? Just remember who made Israel, fool, it damn sure wasn’t Israelis, cause there weren’t any till the Zionists made them!
Now you apologise to Baruch Rosen this instant!
So how does one become a Zionist? It sounds like a fun club to join.
I want in, dang it.
///
Mooser, you’re a riot.
Good, I was scared for a moment you weren’t getting it, which wouldn’t be unusual for my comments, they aren’t the most cogent in the world.
I would love to know what kind of life Baron Muncrosen envisions for this and the next generation of Israelis? It certainly isn’t a life he feels ready to join in. I wonder why?
But he’s always ready to spill more of someone else’s Jewish blood.
If the vast majority of Israelis don’t buy into your spin then they are detached from reality. How unfortunate for you.
I was in Israel when there were almost daily suicide bombings. I have many Israeli friends that I am in contact with on a daily basis. I can easily understand under the constant threat of Islamic terror how there would be many Israelis that feel like you do. What surprises me is how strong in their convictions most Israeli are and how very few feel as you do.
So that’s it is it Julian? You’re now scrapiong the barrel and resrting to what most Israelis think. You must be pretty desperate.
You see Julian, most Israelis (certainly the ones you know) are fanatical ideolgues. They voted the most right wing government in history. In spite of the 200 nukes and the most powerful military in the Middle East (by a long way) they still believe they are the helpess victims.
Most of them, like yourself, have never been to the West Bank, even if it is a few kilometers from where they live.
Most of them cheered teh massacre in Gaza and some of them set up family picnics on the hills overlooking Gaza and watched as hundreds of children were being incinerated.
Most of them turned on Obama for daring to suggest that the illegal settlemetns should cease to be expanded, let alone dismantled.
So you see Julian, what the Israelis you maintian contact with think, is irrelevant.
Hey Julian,
Are any of these among the Israelis you keep in contact with?
Israelis protest over ‘fascist’ Jerusalem settlements
link to independent.co.uk
There is a fascinating dynamic “flash” map of the history of empires from 3000 BC. It shows the many empires that have come and gone and “Kingdom of Israel” is just another blip on the march of history. Go to this Empire Map to see it. Imagine if all the decedents of all these empires of the past starting making claims that their “historical” rights superseded the current indigenous populations?
Thanks pmiller. Very interesting presentation.
I think that you are correct in your analysis of the way the Arab state government’s
exploit the Israeli regime as a way to stay in power. And the USA always supports
the Israeli racism –it’s the biggest example 0f USA racist policy, so, what’s new??
“‘Without a conflict with Israel, many Arab countries will be forced to deal more with home grown problems”‘
That’s funny. I was just reading this article yesterday which said that right wing Jews have to keep beleving they are persecuted, because that is the foundation fo their indentity.
“‘Fear of annihilation is at the heart of Jewish, not just Israeli culture and it pre-dates the Holocaust. “‘
“‘Israel is rumoured to have one of the most powerful military forces in the world but Israelis still believe that they are right now being annihilated. This is insanity. “‘
link to avigailabarbanel.me.uk
Better somewhat ‘insane’ than dead…
“This is why the Arabs always refuse peace.”‘
So you admit that 22 Arab states have signed a peace offer, which includes all of Israel’s demands. yet accuse the Arabs of refuing peace, when Israel has rejected the offer.
If you’re gong to recycle talking points, it’s best to check they don’t contrdict one another.
@Baruch Rosen
Ooops i forgot, 75% of Jordan are Palestinians and Jews are barred from living in Jordan.
They lied to you. Jews can live and own property in Jordan, which has been recognized by the US State Department. See here for the relevant documents.
The Internet, with the possibility to check Dershowitz’s wild claims, has dealt a devastating blow to Hasbara.
Thanks for that interesting bit of information HB.
Except there is not a single Jew in Jordan. That is the reality. Your link shows that until 1995 the penalty for selling land to a Jew was death. What a country.
If it’s a fact that there are no Jews in Jordan, then I trust you can prove it Julian?
In Israel, you can be evicted from your own home for not being Jewish and it’s illegal for Arabs to build homes in many polaces. What a country.
From Wikipedia.
Jordan has welcomed a number of Israeli companies to open plants in Jordan. Israeli tourists visit Jordan as well as Jewish citizens of other countries. Jordan has no laws barring Jews from its territory as in the case of Saudi Arabia.
In the year following the 1994 Israel-Jordan treaty, some 60,000 to 80,000 Israeli tourists had visited Jordan. Expectations of closer relations between the countries led to a proposal to open a kosher restaurant in Amman. With a loss of Arab clientele, failure to secure kosher certification, and lack of interest among tourists, the enterprise failed.[8]
Another one of your taling points bites the dust Julian. What a pitty!
The Jewish State only exists because Jewish terrorists like Irgun, and the newly formed ‘Israeli’ army kicked out the 800K Palestinian Arab indigenous population.
There would be no Jewish State without the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.
Rape, torture, entire massacres of villages. Merciless killing of innocent civilians by the Jewish terrorists is why there is a Jewish majority inside Israel today.
How sad is it that, Ben-Guion himself was upset that the Jordanian Legion treated Israeli POWs better than the Zionist armies.
After the war, Israelis virtually enslaved Palestinian civilians they grouped up indiscriminately as POWs in forced-labor camps.
Not very civilized, huh?
Ilan Pappe’s, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, refers repeatedly to the brutality meted out in what he calls “POW camps” and occasionally to forced labor e.g. pg. 202/203:
Compare these tactics to the de-development of Gaza [Every regular here should read Sara Roy's book] by Israel today, and nothing has changed.
The same ideological and institutional inhumanity shown towards the Palestinian Arabs prevails.
It’s like that dishonest argument by WJ awhile ago when he said Israeli is basically moving much faster than the US in coming to grips with it’s historical crimes against another people (Native Americans ~ Palestinians, etc.).
Of course it’s a lie.
The social consciousness has changed over the decades. Not because of the Israelis or Israel though. That is our legacy. The people in this country who fought for equality and reconciliation. Who didn’t hold back their language in calling a spade a spade.
Israel has no legacy of progressive reform or humanism. At every moment of it’s history, they have dehumanized and brutalized the Palestinians. And their tactics have only changed ever so slightly over the decades.
Gaza revealed Israel’s original brutality – why it even exists in the first place. It’s always the entity/person who is willing to do the most inhumane/evil thing that succeeds in life anyway. It’s not like States are founded through goodness of heart.
Hence why it all goes back to the foundation of the Jewish State and why that label, as a ‘Jewish State’ in the heart of the Arab world, reveals the original crime.
This concentration labor camp of civilian prisoners (1948-1949) is one historical point the Israelis have to explain the world never to do again….I too, do not agree with this practice.
I look at it the other way. Israel did this.
‘the world’ is vague.
Lots of States have done these kinds of horrible things. Israel is continuing to colonize and dispossess the indigenous Palestinian Arabs. So clearly, Israel has not learned anything from virtually enslaving Palestinians in forced-labor camps.
So what is different?
The social consciousness of what is acceptable for ‘Western’ nations has changed.
These progressive reforms have had a ripple effect and constitute a pressure. So Israel cannot put Palestinians in forced-labor camps and get away with it.
However, it can find other ways to gain benefits from their subjugation of the Palestinians. The de-development of the Gaza economy is a perfect example. I can’t stress the importance of that book enough.
The experience of Palestine suggests that when Arabs allow European Jews to buy land in Arab countries, the Arabs end up losing the country.
There is nothing unusual about a death penalty for treason.
Israel has a bright future if they can, instead of finding out what people think of them and their actions, and responding, they can tell people what to think. Unfortunately, they can’t.
Gee, I guess Baron von Muchrosen will have no objection to us making Nazi-Israel comparisons, will he? He seems to be very fond of calling people Nazis!
Baron, my advice to you, as one Jew to another, is back off that calling-everybody-a-Nazi thing pronto, Tonto!
Between some guys in dashikis and sandals, and an IDF guy in full battle gear standing over a Palestinian woman, which do you think will appear closer to a storm trooper?
Oh, sorry, Baron, I forgot, Zionists have that magical mind-meld power of telling everyone what to think! And they must think in that way!
May the Farce be with you, Baron.
The mind meld is Vulcan, Mooser, Not Jedi.
Like I would know? Only seen bits of Star Trek in reruns, and as I remember, I walked out on “Star Wars”, before it sunk under the weight of its own cliches, and took me with it. A narrow escape, I call it.
Here I though we were going to get a superior apologetic out of BR, and all we get is the same old lying screed. In fact, after reading his posts I am inclined to think he is probably sitting in a trailer park in TX…lol Tip toe through the gardens of fairy tales and fabrications, amazing that you would bright this dung to this site, as if we have never heard this 50 times over.
Hey, it’s a toughie. On the one hand, there’s no point in arguing with a Zionist, it’s like arguing with a coke-head or black-out drunk. On the other hand, can you let von Munchrosen’s comments stand, possibly to be accepted by the less informed?
But I’ll say one thing: I have never seen such a capable bunch of Zionist debunkers as we have here.
I got no problem admitting I am not one of them. I gave Zionism up as a bad job almost as soon as I knew what it really was. My reaction was probably just lucky, due to a number of converging factors. But I admit, after I knew what Zionism was, I really didn’t want to learn a whole lot more about it. Whatever our Jewish problems were, Zionism, I was quickly convinced, wasn’t the answer, far from it. That I knew, right away. There was no magical Jewish way to steal land and kill people, and that’s all I needed to know. And their exposition of Jewish history leading to Zionism was so outlandish, and so abviously untrue and self-serving.
How you guys can stand keeping all the dirty details on tap for debunking Zionists, I’ll never know.
Of course, if you are Israeli, I guess you don’t have much choice.
Mooser – good job, you old hand at munchrosening. Do you use the rosetta stone to deconstruct munchrosenspeak?
Alas, I keep asking for higher level hasbaranik – what do we have to do on mondoweiss to get a level 4 (that’s top level)? I think we more than qualify for the best! you and citizen the proof.
Baruch Rosen “Richard get a brain” with his superior knowledge and personal experience of both Israel and the Arab countries, has spoken:
Without a conflict with Israel, many Arab countries will be forced to deal more with home grown problems, which is something they fear the most. Galvanizing their populations to focus their anger on the Jews is their best way to deflect attention.
This is why the Arabs always refuse peace.
Olmert found this out.
Olmert never had any intention of making ‘peace’ except on his terms, which gave no meaningful sovereignty to the Palestinians he was ‘negotiating’ with.
Do please enlighten us on the home grown problems that Arab countries face. And also please explain the total disdain shown by Israel towards the Arab Peace Initiative, first proposed in 2002, and re-affirmed in 2007
Ooops i forgot, 75% of Jordan are Palestinians and Jews are barred from living in Jordan. .
This is an outright lie. Approximately 60% of Jordan residents and citizens are of West Bank (ie Palestinian) origin. Not surprising, since Israelis pushed them out of their own homeland in 1948 and 1967. There are many Palestinian residents of Jordan who have not been allowed to take up Jordanian citizenship, (ie poor refugees still in slum city camps in Jordan) who are actively discriminated against.
‘Plucky little’ King Hussein married his third wife, a member of the Tukan family, who are notables from Nablus. She was killed in a helicopter crash. The current king’s wife, Rania, is a Palestinian, born in Kuwait.
The Israeli Ambassador to Jordan is resident, but perhaps he is not Jewish.
The Arabs have 99% of the land in the Mideast.
That is another blatant lie.
How, exactly, do you define the Mideast? If you confine it to members of the Arab League, and then count all of them as ‘Arabs’, then perhaps you are right, in theory. But do you count Mauritanians, for instance, as ‘Arabs’?
Do you think exiled Palestinians should move to these countries? Many have, but when the exiled PLO leadership moved to Tunisia, Israel promptly sent in assassination teams. (That is when they weren’t murdering innocent waiters in Norway).
“Olmert never had any intention of making ‘peace’ except on his terms, which gave no meaningful sovereignty to the Palestinians he was ‘negotiating’ with.”
Pure Palaprop.
“Erekat acknowledged that Israel had presented the Palestinians with a proposal in November 2008 which “talked about Jerusalem and almost 100% of the West Bank,” and he noted that Mahmoud Abbas could have accepted this proposal, just as the “Palestinian negotiators could have given in in 1994, 1998, or 2000.” Intriguingly, Erekat then proceeded to reveal what he considered a “secret”: he explained why the Palestinians had rejected the recent proposals just like the ones offered in 2000/01 during the negotiations in Camp David and Taba. What prevented an agreement every time – at least according to Erekat – was the Israeli request that the Palestinians acknowledge the central importance of the Temple Mount for Jewish history and religion.’
link to jewlicious.com
link to washingtonpost.com
“”“Olmert never had any intention of making ‘peace’ except on his terms, which gave no meaningful sovereignty to the Palestinians he was ‘negotiating’ with.”
This has already been debunked.
Olmert was a sitting duck PM with lousy approval ratings and no influence in the Knesset.
Secondly, the reports you link to arre BS. The Palestinians never rejected anything at Taba. Both leaders stated that at Taba that they were on the bring of a settlement and would have reched one had they had more time.
It was Barak that called an early end to the Taba talks,becasue he said, he had to prepare for the Israeli elections.
BTW. Richard did state that Olmert’s offer did not include sovereignty for the Palestinians.
I just checked both of your linsk and no mention is made in either one fo them about sovereignty either.
More takling points go up in smoke.
Also from teh WP link.
“‘In our meeting Wednesday, Abbas acknowledged that Olmert had shown him a map proposing a Palestinian state on 97 percent of the West Bank — though he complained that the Israeli leader refused to give him a copy of the plan.”‘
It’s pretty obvious why Olmert refused to provide a copy of the plan. He had no intention of delivering on it, adn thus, could not risk having it released to the public.