The remains of the American International School in Gaza (Photo: Alex Kane)
The question was like an electric shock to the six or so Palestine solidarity activists, including myself, as we were standing inside a classroom at a school in Gaza City.
“Why the Palestinians? Why are we the only ones suffering?” asked a Palestinian girl who was probably about nine or ten-years-old. And then the enormity of what the people of Gaza go through every day hit me.
Most of us were Americans and one was Canadian, and we were delivering some of the $17,000 in school supplies that Jessica Campbell and Julia Hurley, two members of the Gaza Freedom March student delegation, had brought and raised on their own.
Campbell and Hurley had hauled the aid and supplies in across the Rafah crossing late Dec. 30, all the way from the United States, and the stuffed animals and stickers we brought were a tiny portion of the total.
We didn’t quite know how to react to that question.
“I don’t know how to describe it. I’m still feeling in shock from it. I’ve known about this so long and it’s now kind of becoming real to me that our government is complicit with doing these terrible things to these children, and there’s nothing we’re going to be able to do to make up for it. And realizing that is really painful for me,” Campbell, a student in Oregon, said.
Julia Hurley distributing supplies to Palestinian children. (Photo: Alex Kane)
Hurley, who graduated from Seton Hall University, said, “It feels really good to be able to give toys and school supplies to these children, but I really don’t feel like I’m doing enough. I feel like this is such a tiny little thing and it might make them happy for a moment and think about Americans a little bit differently, but I wish I could give them more. I wish I could fix everything. I wish I could rebuild the schools.”
Although I didn’t have this reaction to the question of “why the Palestinians” right away, and I wouldn’t have said it out loud in front of a classroom of young Palestinian girls, I thought back to a story a professor at school told me.
He is a Holocaust survivor, and was teaching a course I took on the culture and politics of Nazi Germany. One story that remains with me from that professor is when he described a scene in Hungary, where an Austrian friend, who came to stay with his family in Hungary after the Nazi invasion in 1938, repeatedly asked, “What have we done?” And someone in my professor’s family responded, “Your only crime is that you were born a Jew.”
The only reason why these innocent girls, and all the innocent children and people of Palestine are suffering, is because they committed the “crime” of being born Palestinian. Had they been born Israeli, or in the United States, the crippling siege on Gaza would not be a reality for them. But it is. The Zionist movement had looked to Palestine as a place where Jews could create an state where only Jews would reside, and the children of Gaza continue to live with the indescribable effects of occupation, war, and death that came as a direct result of the Zionist move to establish a state in Palestine.
Realizing this fact is heartbreaking and disgusting to think about. This memory will only make me fight harder back in the States to do my best to break the siege on Gaza from there. I must, and I promised this to all of the wonderful Palestinians I have met so far. But will that be enough?
The United States, Egypt and the whole international community have turned their backs on the people of Gaza, denying them the simple right to live in dignity. I have hope, of course; if I didn’t I wouldn’t be fighting for Palestine. But I’m also realistic, and unless the political situation drastically changes in the United States or Egypt, this God awful, criminal siege will continue, because Israel has no interest in a Palestinian state, and clearly no interest in the human rights of Gazans. This, of course, is why a strong boycott, divestment and sanctions movement is badly needed.
Throughout the day, discussions of the logistics of getting out of the border, and whether people could stay longer than the Egyptian government wanted them to, went on. We foreigners are worried about being stuck in Rafah for a couple of days and possibly missing our flights home because of the Egyptians and all of the trouble they have put the Gaza Freedom March through.
That concern is a joke compared to some of the stories I have heard from people my age in Gaza. One college student had a scholarship to study in Egypt, and couldn’t get out because of the siege on her land. Others expressed hope of visiting New York and other places around the world, only to lament that they were stuck here indefinitely, until the Israeli government lifts the siege.
Saying that the Gaza Strip is the world’s biggest open-air prison is a good characterization. But even most prisoners have a set date of when they will get out, and have guarantees of where their food is coming from. Gazans can’t look to a set date when the siege will be lifted. And now the Egyptian government, once they’re done building their iron wall to compliment all of the Israeli walls and fences around Gaza, have set out to destroy the tunnels that are literally the main source of food, medicine and fuel for the Palestinians of Gaza. I worry for my new friends in Palestine. How will they eat? How will they live?
Gaza is worse than a prison. I don’t know if there are words to describe how Gazans live.
Another school destroyed during the Israeli attack on Gaza. (Photo: Alex Kane)
The more people come to Gaza, especially Americans, the better. I visited the site of the American school in Gaza, which was blown up by Israel during the massacres in Gaza one year ago. Massive amounts of rubble remain, and it has not been rebuilt because Israel refuses to allow in materials to rebuild the schools and homes they demolished last year.
The phrase the Palestinian teacher kept repeating was the appalling irony that the American school in Gaza City was “built by USAID [and by U.S. tax dollars], and destroyed by the US Army.”
After seeing and understanding that sad fact, I believe people must be determined, creative, and brave in confronting the crimes of the United States and Israel. Whether that means demanding the Goldstone Report’s recommendations be implemented, initiating a boycott of a company that profits off the illegal occupation of Palestine, or shutting down weapons shipments that go to Israel, it must be done. This slow suffocation of our brothers and sisters in Gaza must stop, and it must stop now.
Alex Kane is a junior at Marymount Manhattan College, and a reporter and writer with the Indypendent. He is part of the student delegation to the Gaza Freedom March, where he joined over 1,300 delegates in a historic march in Gaza on December 31.
Follow his Twitter account at link to www.twitter.com.
Good work, Alex.
Such is suffering felt by a young person…
and for people like us as adults, the question can even be more…
why it seemed the authorities of the world abandoned us?
why are we constantly in shadow of fear, confusion, and destruction?
why do the peoples in the world not in unity in supporting us?
why not all the hearts of powerful leaders not behind us?
why these seemingly endless oppression and desolation?
why can we not be freed from this continuous sufferings and sorrow?
what is the truth behind these things; are we truly in the side of truth?
There are. The most succinct among them would be “concentration camp.”
And as to the question, there isn’t a day where I don’t ask myself that question, or at least one like it. The Palestinians aren’t alone, insofar as suffering, but that nine-year-old trapped between the walls and the bombs and the naval bombardments really wouldn’t know, would she?
Why the Palestinians? Was it really just that they were an easy target? Like the Jews in Europe and Russia, or the Native Americans, or other groups? Is it really that there are human beings who will kill another human being, with the same amount of concern or regret that they would chop down a tree on land that they want to take?
Happy New Year, incidentally. For what it’s really worth.
The most succinct among them would be “concentration camp.”
Yeah, it just hit me that Gaza is, by definition, a concentration camp. A small area used to forcibly contain a large group of people. When concentration camps were first used in the Boer War, the British public soon became disgusted with its use. You wouldn’t think history would be repeating itself a hundred years later, with the only difference being the idea is being justified and in some cases, celebrated.
—
Obviously the Palestinians made the mistake of being born on Jewish land
Happy new year chaos!
Happy new year everyone!
Happy new year Palestine!
Thank you Alex, voices like yours are very important for the Palestinians because their voices are silenced or suppressed. I hope you carry on with your good work.
Most Americans and (perhaps) Israelis are completely ignorant about what’s actually happening in Gaza. If they did know, and they’re human, they might, perhaps, be horrified, and pressurise their governments.
What is needed are more photos of the facts, and their widest possible dispersal. Pick them up from Google, (give credit to the photographer) and publish them on Flickr, Photobucket, and Facebook. You might only influence a few people, but that’s a start.
I stole this photo (and added a title), last January: link to flickr.com
It’s been viewed 3550 times over the past year.
In other words, do something, and stop having a group wank about Richard Witty.
Guys? Seriously, if you want, ignore Witty and let me handle him. I’m totally fine with wasting my time on him and I get the sense that he doesn’t have all that much patience for me. I’ve noticed most of the time he can’t even bring himself to reply to my replies, whereas he still tries to tangle up anyone who makes the mistake of taking him seriously.
Beyond that, yeah, excellent idea. People need to see what’s really happening over there.
I don’t see the point of cluttering the thread with his inanities and your responses to his inanities. I think tree has the right idea. Only respond to him if there is a point which you would like others to read about. Otherwise, just ignore him.
4700. witty has been doing the same bs for years on this site. give it a rest.
But he makes me laugh. Admit it, we need to laugh some. “Perception is real. Facts are interpreted.”
Another line taken entirely out of context.
Perceptions are real (they are the measures of a communication process, that is what dissent is, a communication process)
Facts are interpreted (they are selected, interpreted through subjective prism, for a propagandistic purpose – in too many cases)
Its easy to misrepresent.
Idiot.
———————
You cannot make up private meanings of words.
fact |fakt|
noun
a thing that is indisputably the case .
You have it exactly backwards, fool.
perception |pərˈsep sh ən|
noun
• a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression.
True; it’s easy to misrepresent–here’s a whole instruction manual on just how to do it: link to australiansforpalestine.com
Or, you can just follow comments such as those continually repeated here by Dick Witty.
The scriptural ordinance – ‘Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth…’ is indeed and beyond question a merciless, and cruel compensation…but for us who truly believe in the LORD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob… this is justice indeed and beyond question.
Where will you as humanist, put your human rights in this justice? If you cannot understand the context of this question, you will never understand why the ‘oppression’ of Gazans never ends…
The description of “eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” means equally “ONLY an eye for an eye, ONLY a tooth for a tooth”, as a reform from the logic of rage-driven revenge that is never sated.
The Jewish command of “Love thy neighbor as thyself” as equally the law, clarifies that they intent is not to compel literal revenge, and is interpreted in Jewish law for centuries as requiring compensation for wrongs, compensation that results in consent.
Jesus’ teachings were his clarifications of that already articulated discussion at the time.
Islam has similar restrictions on the satiation of rage, also needing and getting clarification, but too often ignored.
Says the guy who lies about the Gaza massacre, and lies about the siege of Gaza. You are a classic hypocrite.
Yes, I do understand and support your views…I only raised this point because their seemed to be certain attitudes that immediately condemn by their own sense of justice other groups without recognizing the reality there is such a large body of laws that needs to be applied before attaining such justice.
I cannot reconcile this attitude to the conventional ‘rule of law’, and tend to doubt if these kind of attitude were civilized more that the allegedly ‘condemnable’ Israelis?
Islam has similar restrictions on the satiation of rage, also needing and getting clarification, but too often ignored.
Note the necessary political twist at the end. It’s not about Jews, Christians, Muslims misusing religion but about Muslims only. Christians and their elder brothers the Jews are enlightened humanists, while they may well be something wrong about Muslim doctrine in spite of some comparable traits. Something that needs reform. …
Balance à la Richard.
The solution: link to mondoweiss.net
rel=”nofollow”>More preemptive war? Yes, after all the West has the right to defend itself. Western nations can earn themselves a bit of the light among the nations by carpet bombing the next poor litte shit in the Islamic world.
2009 in Perspective: Glenn Greenwald on the Five Wars US Is Fighting in Muslim Countries
Happy New Year to all. And hope for Palestine.
You obviously didn’t read whole posts.
“Carpet bombing the next poor little shit in the Islamic world”, good rage.
that was irony not rage. Would you notice the difference?
you are so obsessed with rage that you see it everywhere.
You obviously didn’t read whole posts.
Doesn’t even depend on what you are alluding to. I read both article and comments, Richard. While obviously I reacted to your post after reading it. How else would I have reached the last sentence?
Ah yes, I am the kind of person that constantly picks things out of context? Let’s see.
You legitimately start out by defending Judaism’s most misused phrase. Show the obvious similarities between the three monotheist traditions, but, –and this is something I deeply detest — you can never leave it at that. You always need an agitprop twist in the end, and that political twist always seems to feeds on the neocon mindset. Do you happen to share some of their goals?
I agree with Glenn Greenwald. The larger scenario has a huge reality creation potential, the more countries are attacked the more real the war on terrorism will become. The more Muslims are humilated the more young man will find their way to the hate preachers. But I don’t have the impression that bothers you too much. Quite the opposite. This “rage” comes out of nowhere.
The little twist at the end reminds me of the neocon journalist that proudly stated in an interview that “we are feeding the rage”, by the way. Obviously he meant the good rage: The rage against the Muslim world. “The good rage” for the sheeple, the “posse”. Your little twist hints in that direction. The rage against the Muslim world. The bad rage is only the anger about Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians or the “lobby’s” influence on American ground to fund the war machinery. Can you suggest a coinage that makes this more clear. Israeli rage at rockets, deep hatred and the wish for revenge has some kind of holy quality. Correct? Or legitimately nationalist?
The good rage is closely aligned “with legitimate power” to control and thus good, the other is the rage of the evil “posse”, the crowd not so well funded by the “elegant circles” you are enamored with so much.
Note, not the slightest bit of rage only resignation, although I trust you to sense rage from the first word to the end.
You are presuming Leandor.
I don’t really know which comments you are disagreeing with.
I’ve been personally angry at some people in my life. I was removed from a job I held for 9 years last January, and I was angry with the owner for many things about that.
I had the options of help him make the transition to a new financial executive, leave in a short period without much assistance enough to say that I was fair but leaving the new CFO reeling, leave immediately leaving them before the new CFO could start, or worse sabatoge the records, systems or company’s reputation, and/or sue the owner (which I likely would have won).
I decided to assist the new financial manager get up to speed, not sue the owner, not damage his or the company’s reputation.
The reason was that I asked myself, what occurs as a result of my actions. As a result of helping, the worst that happens is that I look like and feel like a pawn. The best that I retain good working relationships for subsequent prospect.
We live in the same community with the same circle of friends and acquaintances. We support some of the same movements.
I was definitely hurt tangibly and emotionally by my unfair termination. But, expressing my rage by hurting back might have resulted in the failure of the company, and the subsequent layoff of 40 employees.
I see the logic and action of vengeance in some actions of the IDF, many actions of Hamas, some of Fatah. Once out in violence particularly, harms are IMPRINTED deeply, scarred.
There is no forgetting for any Israelis that were adults from 1990 – 2003, the environment of first rocket fire from Iraq during the first Gulf War (even though Israel was not a direct party to the war), then MANY gruesome terror attacks on civilians. (Not collateral damage or excessive targeting in an otherwise justifiable war with Hamas in Gaza.) Targeted, and only for terror.
The thousandth trauma, in a never-ending sequence for many decades.
There is no question that Gazans are similarly imprinted with this trauma, the thousandth trauma in a never ending sequence.
The urge to traumatize in either response or in prevention is a horrific logic.
Demonstrations to support Gazans then include the strange bedfellows of peace-seeking sympathetic Zionists that want Israel to be a good neighbor, anti-colonialism dissenters that just want the oppresions to stop, and pro-revenge advocates that want the oppression to switch.
Here is the example of they/we interact.
You are presuming Leandor.
Lea N der!. There is no “o” anywhere and the capital is important. I told you before.
But no, I am not presuming. I am trained in language and literature and one of it’s main features is meaning.
I don’t really know which comments you are disagreeing with.
Simply Amazing: obviously the one I cited. But as I wrote I also consider it only as an example of a more pervasive pattern. Basically only trying to tell you by what rhetorical tricks you are sabotaging your own project, or goal, if you like.
Actually this post too uses the same pattern. The sensitively rational Richard doesn’t resort to revenge in spite of rage about a lost job, while “many” Palestinians do.
I see the logic and action of vengeance in some actions of the IDF, many actions of Hamas, some of Fatah. Once out in violence particularly, harms are IMPRINTED deeply, scarred.
Actually this post proves my point. You misuse a personal story to point out Palestinian Arab deficiencies. Since you are so rational in hard times, you have the right to point out their irrational behavior. That is both patronizing and naive. While I agree there are many schemers and machinators in the professional world too, I would like to point out they probably aren’t paid as well for their disruptive actions as the diverse services in the occupied territories, and while there is surely much corruption in our business world, occupation is obviously always corruption sublime. We pay, you do what we want.
Besides would the same “some” “many” anti-Jewish versus anti-Arab revenge action patterns show if we widen the historical frame for a century instead of only twenty years ?
So Dick Witty decided to serve his long-time employer right until his termination day even though he had
a good case against his employer out of altruism in behalf his fellow workers
and because he wanted to cement a good referral to insert in with his resume
when he went job-hunting. Given these admission, how would he react if he was not only unjustly deprived of his means to support himself and his family,
but also deprived of his home and the means to reconstruct it? And if his children came home from school (demolished) deeply scarred from white phosphorous, and if he had no access to medical attention for them? Would he apply to the IDF to clean their tank treads, hoping to get a good referral?
LeaNder–thanks for the url reference. Google the recent verbal exchange between Ben Stein and Ron Paul. I’d like to see Glenn Greenwald follow up on it, especially in light of his article you referenced.
“Not collateral damage or excessive targeting in an otherwise justifiable war with Hamas in Gaza.) Targeted, and only for terror.”
There it is again. Hamas crimes are pure evil. Israeli crimes are only collateral damage or “excessive targeting in an otherwise justifiable war”.
This is despicable in several different ways. But on a detached, disinterested note, I have to applaud the Orwellian brilliance of a phrase like “excessive targeting”. I’m going to remember that one. Anyone who has ever read “Politics and the English Language” would immediately recognize what is going on with Richard’s style.
I agree Richard Parker. Chaos, the problem is you waste inches. People leave this site because of it.
This will likely be the year that the situation improves for Gazan civilians.
In at least the short-term, so long as shelling of civilians doesn’t resume, activists keeping the condition of Gazans in the world’s eye, will cause a relaxation of limitations on border crossings in both the Israeli and Egyptian borders.
Hopefully, in the mid and long term, the issues that rationally restrict the access of Gazan civilians will be resolved by communication and mutual acceptance.
Hopefully, it will come about by consented and kind persuasion, and not by revolution, coup, military intervention in either Gaza, Egypt or Israel.
Shelling is a dishonest characterization of the effect of the Qassam rockets.
Furthermore, being the liar and crook that you are, you start w/ the rockets and end w/ the deaths of Palestinians.
Any sane honest person would start with the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the colonization of Palestine. The occupation. The daily human rights abuses. The fragmentation and subjugation of Palestinian society.
To disassociate Gaza from the rest of the conflict and isolate it solely to the firing of rockets is what a good Nazi, like yourself aims to do.
Another tactic, another dishonest piece of verbiage from the resident denier.
There is no comment that I’ve made “solely”. That is an oversimplification of my comments.
You are invoking stimulations to your rage. Pavlovian almost.
Do you value calm?
Even in war, the most effective remain calm, and think. I sense that you believe that you are at war, that the only valid question is “which side are you on?”
You are calm 2nd, dishonest 1st.
So the combination of being dishonest (a liar as well), while characterizing your verbiage calmly = repulsion.
I’m disgusted with you.
And this is a conflict where it’s quite easy to take sides.
I support the Palestinian people. I support the realization of their basic human rights. Their dignity. I support justice for them. Their history and their society has been ravaged by intellectual crooks (Zionists) for decades.
Once someone opens up the history books that make use of the Israeli archives, they no longer have a mystified, obfuscated, made-for-TV-movie presentation of this conflict.
The Israelis are colonizing Palestine. They have been since BEFORE the 1948 War. The ethnic cleansing of Palestine began before the declaration of Statehood by the Zionists. The murders of innocent civilians, the massacres of entire villages has continued after 1948 right up until the present-day.
There is an arc of justice in this conflict and it is not with the Israelis. It is with the Palestinians.
The arc of justice is with civilians.
And the source of injustice is often large, well funded militaries. Such as the IDF.
The materials that were shot at Sderot and other places included rockets AND mortars. To call them “bottle rockets” as someone else did, is to misrepresent.
The people of Sderot all live near or permanently in, bomb shelters.
The communication was attempted by Hamas that they wanted fundamental change to the relationship, but they continued to shell and rocket fire to the extent that the rockets no longer serve as communication, as deterrent.
They reached a level of habituality.
I have not yet found a book that prescribed to use guns to communicate for sobriety or peace. Was there such one?
No, but that doesn’t stop either side from trying. Well, in Israel’s case they use bombs, but it’s the same thing, isn’t it?
Hamas supporters claim that the rockets and mortars are for the purpose of deterrence.
But, they have historically been used to indicate solidarity with dissent in the West Bank which very much muddies the reasoning that they are deterrance from Israeli assault, more punishment for what they don’t like or understand.
Hamas kept to the cease-fire. Israel broke the cease-fire by bombing tunnels inside Gaza, not living up to their end of the terms which was to sufficiently alleviate the blockade. I believe 6 to 9 Palestinians were killed in the bombings.
No proof has since been provided to support the claim that the bombed tunnels were being used to “kidnap” (Zionist propaganda term) Israeli soldiers.
Meanwhile, to add context, Israel kidnaps children and civilians by the 100s. 1000s of Palestinians rot in Israeli jails.
Anyways, after Israel broke the cease-fire, Hamas resumed rocket fire.
Israel had it’s pretext and it carried out it’s long-planned mission of breaking the will of the Palestinians of Gaza. Too bad, it won’t work.
You and zamaaz, are Nazis. That isn’t an overstatement. You are a couple of sadists. You make the most pretentious statements about those rockets and yet, you say absofuckinglutely nothing about the daily oppression Palestinians live under and inflicted upon them by ISRAELIS (and fueled by Jewish Zionism).
The people of S’Derot are living infinitely better lives than the people of Gaza. Israel is still killing people in Gaza at will. Israel is still blockading Gaza.
The people of S’derot are not blockaded. They are not starved. They can freely travel anytime they wish and have the guarantee that their homes will be theirs still if they come back later on.
In any single level of this conflict, the Palestinians suffer more, and are subjected to infinitely more injustices – since THEY were the original owners of the land.
And around we go.
The Palestinian camp is weak. They have too much against them. So they should come out strong anyway and seek the harshest language possible.
No Palestinian is going to accept your commentary, Witty. This is not a compromise between Jew and Arab or Palestinian and Israeli.
What’s going to happen is simple – no matter what kind of resistance the Palestinians take, they will be suppressed.
Meanwhile, distractions and inciters like you and the other fascist pig, zamaaz, will complain on purely the academic level.
As I said, the facts on the ground are moving at a alarming fast rate.
This sense of urgency should inform the sensibilities of anyone who TRULY and SINCERELY (and not out of some pretentious identity politics, ethnocentrism) cares for the plight of the Palestinian people, the enforcement of international law and justice, and above all anti-colonial struggle.
This is not simply occupation. It’s colonialism. Jewish Zionists are colonizing and subjugating another people.
There is a clear right and wrong side. You and your cult won’t win.
I was wondering how many Witty posts it would be before we went from the seige of Gaza to “Hamas”. It doesn’t take many, does it.
And as always, I’m amazed at the number of erudite, educated, calm and honest Zionist compatriots chiming in to validate, expound and confirm Richard’s points. I mean, I though maybe one or two would try!
In case anybody has the wrong idea, anyone can register and comment on Mondoweiss. It does not even require your real name. So the opinion distribution in comments reflects only the desire of people to support or disparage an expressed view. There is no “posse” no group or cabal, and nothing (well, the capacity of the system, I guess) preventing hundreds
of those erudite, etc. Witty supporters from making their voices heard.
Well, I suppose it would help if they knew what he was saying, but that’s another story.
There is the willingness to demean, exclude, attempting to coordinate.
Rather than discuss.
I play some jazz. There are songs and approaches to songs that are complex lines, that almost compel only a very finite range of possibilities to solo, for their complexity and rigidity.
Then there are songs like Afro Blue, that are such simple theme lines that individuals can take and articulate in a wide range of possible directions.
Most of my questions are in those open theme orientations.
“What do you propose, pragmatically? How do you see that happening? What actions would move that forward realistically?”
But, those questions are consistently rejected by the “posse”.
The consistent thread is in the “Israel is demon. Zionists are centuries-long conspirator” theme. “They can only be forcefully opposed”.
No other theme permitted.
“We’re going to teach them what isolation is like.”
In the name of democracy.
The Jewish Virtual Library records the worst of the Sderot rockets here. Feast:
link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
Example of Dick Witty’s rational and practical nuts and bolts approach to solving the extended historical problem that is the larger Palestine context here: “The arc of justice is with civilians.”
Witty’s persistent and consistent thread here, as many, many commenters keep pointing out: Hamas is demon. Palestinians are inherently more prone
to violence. BDS is not an acceptable alternative to direct violence. No other theme permitted in Wittyworld. Israel does its best to school the Palestinians in basic humanism, but they never learn–too many hot heads in that bunch. Liberal Zionism is never an oxymoron. The creed and the deed
must be distinguished. (As in, don’t confuse Christianity with the Crusades?
A few rotten apple priests with Catholicism?And so on.)
But, those questions are consistently rejected by the “posse”.
The consistent thread is in the “Israel is demon. Zionists are centuries-long conspirator” theme. “They can only be forcefully opposed”.
There is something deeply wrong about this perspective. My impression is absolutely different. Extreme positions like the one you seem to believe dominates the list, over the years did never manage to dominate. With one exception maybe that the ardent-pro and ardent-contras seem to produce and need each other.
I think part of the problems you have on this list is that you keep generalizing about the people in the comment section. And the diverse epithets you used over the years for this “perceived collective” were initially rather conventional and yes insulting.
I honestly wish you all the best.
LeaNder, it seems you have to read the instruction manual for the correct posse: link to australiansforpalestine.com
Otherwise, you will never really understand the articulated, repetitive POV of Dick Witty.
Israel is already talking about Cast Lead II
Egypt isn’t putting up the iron wall as a temporary measure.
Whenever the rocketers are restrained, Israel keeps killing.
There is no reason at all for hope.
Indeed, as Daniel Bernard said, “that shitty little country in the Middle East” is a threat to world peace
The claim that the “issues that rationally restrict the access of Gazan civilians will be resolved by communication and mutual acceptance” is absurd.
Is it really rational to keep 1.5 million people in a prison? Nevermind rationality…Is it humane? How can you use language like “rationally restrict the access”? And for what, for security reasons? The occupation is the problem, not the launching of rockets.
Consented and kind persuasion? Man, that’s delusional. And obviously don’t support any type of violence in Gaza, but the activism that will cause the siege to be lifted can not be “kind persuasion.” We have to demand it.
Even if you demand anything, in either direction, realize that there are humans affected by all aspects of YOUR response.
A political front that is vague and ends up unnecessarily harming is nowhere near a progressive response. It ends up suppressing more than liberating.
Richard,
There is a wealth of research on dynamics between powerless and powerful, and unfortunately none of it bodes well if any of your advice is followed. Will IDF stop defecating in people’s houses if they Palestinians are “less vague?” Will they return stolen land if you can some how make them “consent” to “gentle persuasion”? Ask any teacher if asking a playground bully to “consent” to be “gently persuaded” will stop the torment of his victims. Ask any prison warden. Read up on Stanford prison experiment where third of emotionally stable, middle class students acting like guards developed genuine sadistic tendencies in six days flat.
Do you have any idea how foolish your writing is? The only thing that stops significant proportion of people being gratuitously cruel to weak and defenseless is a fear of punishment: loss of money, face, privileges, respect, place in heaven.
Being aware of the affects of one’s own actions, do not inhibit the possibility of assertive and effective social change.
It does compel a greater degree of care to the communication process that dissent actually is. Particularly, consider the prospects of subsequent reaction. One GREAT thing about both Gandhi and Martin Luther King and other disciplined principled dissenters (even when they employed armed resistance), is that they compelled trust that once the objected conditions disappeared, that good relations would result.
That is NOT the case confidently with dissent stated by Hamas (very socially and politically conservative) and by direct action advocates. They are either intent on removal of Israel and/or Jews from the region, or indifferent to the spin out of violence resulting from overzealousness.
“The only thing that stops significant proportion of people being gratuitously cruel to weak and defenseless is a fear of punishment: loss of money, face, privileges, respect, place in heaven. ”
That is a very sad conclusion. One thing that makes me most sad about it, is that it supports the likud contention that the only way to accomplish co-existence is by fear, and through the use of force.
The logic of that takes away any motivation then for dissent among Jews, among Israelis, to persuade those in our community to voluntarily think and act more humanely.
I want to return to reason and design, not to war, in which my only decision is which side I pick.
Ms. Eva Smagacz I am very appreciative with your input, and I am interested what were the findings in the Stanford Experiment. My curiousity stemmed from the question, had the researches differentiated emotional from moral stability? Because as far as I could remember these are two distinct mechanisms of human response. Even in battle, this could make difference between losing, or winning. I think you understand what I meant…
And it is tempting too to suspect, genuine sadistic tendencies could have some to do (cross-dynamics) with the word – indignation.
I agree with likud: the only way to accomplish co-existence is by fear and through the use of force.
This is exactly how apartheid ended. South Africa feared complete isolation and their products and people were forced to face the consequences of revulsion felt by the ordinary folk throughout the world.
A Jabotinskyite, right here.
Me, I’m a democrat, favoring institutions that support consent of the governed in a process that affords equal due process for all, with continuity of transfer of power.
And what happens when there isn’t a process that affords equal due process for all?
They measured emotional stability before Stanford experiment and measured moral and emotional stability during experiment.
Therefore emotionally stable IDF recruit has good chance to loose his moral compass and treat civilian Palestinian population with sadistic cruelty. Winning battle is already preordained by the fact that he has a very big gun and civilians have nothing.
But will IDF’s recruit’s side win the war? Not sure, because after 60 years they are still fighting.
So, Eva,
Do you advocate for a single-state or two-state?
If single-state and you are sincere in your statement of support of likud’s statement of power resulting from force, then you are suggesting civil war as “best”.
It would then seem that a two-state solution is your recommendation.
Am I accurate?
There is a process but it requires reform.
There is a similar process in Palestine and in Iran and in Albania, and in Turkey and in Egypt, but they all similarly require some reform.
Richard,
It is a matter for Palestinians what they decide. I will support their right to democracy, human rights, self determination and concept of one man and one voice.
Do you support this as well? And if not, why not?
I support one-person one-vote according to the green line demarcation with the exception of Israeli annexation of the former Jewish quarter of Jerusalem (where the kotel is located).
If Palestine wishes to form a plebiscite independantly and ask all Palestinian and diaspora Palestinians (US, Europe, Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, etc.) what they desire, and they conclude that they want to stay at war for a maximalist Palestine, then I’ll likely become a more committed and defensive Zionist.
At this point, I am simply advocating for Israel that is “enough”, and attempting to confront rumors and misrepresentations that paint Israel as demon rather than as human (errors and goodness, capable of reform).
In other words, “Israeli exceptionalism.” Justice that neither side gets to break international laws with impunity.
Good for you, Eva.
“Hey, this was easy. Now, let’s go next door, ha? Come on!”
“No. This Witty house loot is enough! Let’s just grab our bag of goodies and get out of Dodge. No sense in pushing the envelope–gotta get away while the getting is good. Listen! Ain’t that a cop siren in the distance? Greed is not good! Who knows, a neighbor might have dialed 9-11!”
What specifically do you believe would change the description of Gaza as prison, to Gaza as society?
There are three possible current paths for interchange between Gaza and the world:
1. Across Israeli borders
2. Across Egyptian borders
3. By sea (and/or air)
Longer term if there is a confident agreement between Palestine and Israel, there is a likely protected transit route between Gaza and the West Bank.
Which do you see possible of change currently? How do you think it will happen? What do you think would deter it?
I know asking these questions is a diversion from the civil disobedience in support of the Free Gaza March, but they are relevant and important questions, that you and others are entirely free to elaborate on, with no prospect of sabotage of argument.
What the hell does this mean? I mean, it’s such an obvious statement, does it have to be said? You make the most inane posts on this blog. And it reveals what a mental midget you are. You operate purely on ethnocentrism and racism.
There is no intellectual anima in your commentary.
BDS doesn’t have to be ‘progressive’ according to YOU, Richard Witty. It doesn’t have to appeal to the Israeli population, which tacitly supports the Occupation and Colonization of Historic Palestine and benefits from both as well as existing BECAUSE of both.
Furthermore, Palestinian solidarity should not seek the approval of Jewish Zionists and certainly not PEP Liberal Jews.
Israel and Zionism are the enemies; are the oppressors; the occupiers; the land thieves and colonists. Etc.
Since Israel does not follow the law, exploits legalisms, exploits ‘Jewish History’ (emotional blackmail), murders civilians purposefully (terrorism), destroys civilian infrastructure (terrorism), violates basic human dignity and rights daily, and steals resources and land from its neighbors it has crossed the line.
BDS pales in comparison, to what Israel – with it’s technology, wealth and diplomatic immunity – is able to do to it’s enemies (the Palestinian people, NOT Hamas).
There will be no peace without justice. Israel exists because 800K Palestinians were ethnically cleansed. That is the fundamental injustice the Jewish colonists inflicted upon the Native Palestinian Arabs. And they will never forget (meanwhile Zionist Jews are still hunting down Nazi guards).
I’ll once again echo Illan Pappe. He was talking about the paradigm of parity (See: anything by the fool, zamaas or Witty).
A kind of language that mystifies this conflict. That removes it from reality, the harsh uncompromising reality. You have to be either a Zionist (like Ethan Bronner, Isabel Kershner, etc.) or a pathological liar (like Richard Witty, zamaaz) to accept these vague, bland, asinine rhetorical arguments.
You read the NGO reports, you read the history of the conflict, you see the level of effort the Zionists put into ‘explanation’ (hasbara) and it’s quite fucking clear how criminal they are and yes, how evil they are. They are thieves. Liars, and murderers.
If Israel tried doing this to a European country, it’d be a completely different story.
Try creating a STATE (political entity) on top of any indigenous population and expect war and conflict.
The Jewish Zionists did this to the Native Palestinian Arabs. The history was then obscured and falsified by Zionist Historians and we get present-day liars and falsifiers like Richard Witty here and zamaaz who come on this blog thinking their song and dance is going to work.
Anyways, Pappe says that all societies will change. True. But we don’t have that time. The point of BDS and the point of adapting a language that communicates the absurdity of Zionism and ‘Jewish nationalism’ and that which exposes the reality of the occupation – as COLONIZATION and OPPRESSION and SUBJUGATION – is that it is rooted in the sense of urgency we must have. This is due to how quickly Israel INFLICTS ‘facts-on-the-ground’.
Witty and zamaaz and all the other liars and crooks will try to mystify and divert attention away from the reality on the ground. They will make rhetorical and ‘academic’ (at best) commentary. Meanwhile, Palestinians are being starved and besieged. Meanwhile, the US and Israel are preparing for more ME wars. Etc. etc.
It never ends til people identify their enemy and work against them. The only reason Jewishness comes up as a distraction is because Jews are a big part of our society. We keep running into them as we try to get to the Palestinians to help them.
So while there are Jews who think of themselves as humanists first, there are also Jews who sell Jewishness and commodify it for their own political ends.
And, your actions change that reality?
How specifically? How tangibly?
I experience the harm of your raging (yes, my “feelings” are hurt), but I don’t yet see the success.
Historically, I’ve seen the results of rage politically (rather than discliplined intentional clarification of goals, means, methods) as a LOW proportion of success, and a HIGH proportion of harm and reaction.
There are cases where assertive resistance is necessary, the only option (not the same as frustration), and where it feasibly accomplishes what is intended.
I get that you have a faith in the mode, that it must apply in this situation, and that any discussion of how BEST to do that is a betrayal or distraction.
Hopefully others, leaders, think more. Medea Benjamin thinks more than that. Ali Abunimeh thinks more than that. Phil thinks more than that.
Cliff:
They are thieves. Liars, and murderers.
Thats it, in a nutshell. And still, ever after, and always, they are the victims. The ONLY victims.
Glad you’re back, Cliff.
In fact, Palestinians are not the only ones suffering at the hands of Zionists. The entire Muslim world is suffering from the Zionists – as Israeli professor Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi wrote in his famous book “The Israeli Connection”.
However, the most power weapon Zionist-regime and its collaborators have – is “anti-Semitism” which they have been using to surgically character assassination of anyone who dare to criticized Israel’s Zionazi policies.
Israel’s deadliest weapon
link to rehmat1.wordpress.com
If Chaos4700 is the embodiment of the Hamas leadership,
and Richard Witty is the embodiment of the Jewish zionists,
and that their views are truly irreconcilable, and while they continuously
debate, the Gaza conflict continue; and while the conflict continue,
the Gazan civilians suffers…and while the Gaza is at the receiving end of this
conflict, they are the only one suffering…
This is an example why the Gaza people suffers until now.
This is my answer to the question of the young student, ‘Why the Palestinians?
Why are we the only ones suffering?’
As I do appreciate and learn much from the views of the contending parties, please proceed with arguments…Is up the actual leaders to decide the fate of their people…
Um, no it’s not up to leaders to decide the fate of their people.
And I’ve read other posts by you in which you say we should basically leave it up to ‘leaders’. You also make very asinine vague statements about ‘war’ in general (like about how war is tragic and the ‘bullets/missiles’ basically kill people and not the soldiers involved or something).
Chaos is not a rep for Hamas. You are presenting a FALSE dichotomy.
You, like Witty, are a distraction. Go away. Anyone who isn’t criminally in love themselves, can see that the Palestinians are being occupied and colonized. That it’s them who are suffering overwhelmingly in relation to the Israelis, who are responsible for the suffering.
Whats the point of a comments section if the only people you want to comment are ones who agree with you?
When you read Witty or zamaaz’s posts, do you think you’re getting information and a relevant perspective? Or do you think you’re getting a defense mechanism?
I think it’s the latter.
You don’t have to agree with me. I’m not reacting entirely to their POV, so much as their style. Furthermore, as someone who has read this blog for awhile, it took me a long time to post and then a longer time to get fed up w/ Witty.
Like a year or so.
I’m among the left among Zionists.
Expansionist Zionists don’t come to places like this. They just proceed at what they are doing, their role in Israeli or sympathetic American society.
I oppose that view. I regard “enough Israel” as sufficient.
It is only on the far left, and the left/right that the question of Israel’s validity is questioned at all.
Among the liberal left, the questions are of HOW to become a good neighbor, not whether to exist as a state, and certainly not how to live in an attitude of “walking apology” for existing.
How to be a good neighbor includes finding tangible ways to enable Gazans to meet their needs in the temporary condition in which they are not citizens of a responsible state.
And, it definitely includes finding tangible ways to enable Palestinians to live with self-governance in a viable sovereign state.
Its hard to cut through the sloganeering, the rhetoric, to reconciling actual needs and proposals.
Whenever the question, “what specifically is your goal?” is asked of the dissenters here, vague response. Its as if they don’t know that to build something requires planning, design.
For what its worth, I’m past the conversion process to regard Palestinians as fully human, self-governing, healthy. I’m there. I’m committed.
How to get there is the question? And, I see a great deal of hope in the work of Fatah and the PA, and much much less hope in the statements of Hamas. In the work of Hamas social service, I see hope. In the work of Hamas political leadership and militia, very very little hope.
I do believe in the two-state option, because in strongly support the establishment of the Jewish state as ‘they should and shall be’ and that they should be able to live peacefully according to their determination. But I also believe that while in the process of attaining such goal, the Israelis must help the Palestinians establish their state as ‘they should and shall be’, that they also would live peacefully with ‘body and soul intact’…
In your assessment what group shall I be classified?
So you believe in TSS. I wonder if you would give a portion of your own country to establish a “Jewish State” because ” there shall and should be” one as you say. Or may be you support it because it is somebody else’s home that is taken for this “Jewish State” to exist?
I believe all European convert Jews should go back to Europe, all Arab Jews should be allowed to return to their Arab homelands, and all Palestinians (Christian, Moslem and Jewish ones) should get back the WHOLE of Palestine.
This is justice.
I don’t believe in compromising with criminals and murderers of children – ever!
You guys are maximalists.
I thought you considered yourself to be advocates of democracy.
Rather than one-person one-vote, you are advocating “throw them out”, in the name of opposing ethnic cleansing.
You give dissent a very bad name.
Taxi, your solution is a non-starter. You’re talking about expulsion of millions of people. You cannot roll back the clock 100 years and reverse emigration. You cannot force people who were born in Israel to give up the only place they’ve ever known as home and return to the countries their ancestors left. It’s not even Quixotic, it’s absurd. White people have not been expelled from South Africa to reverse historical injustice, and Jews who cannot prove ancestry in Palestine pre-1948 will never be forced to leave Israel. It is reasonable to demand that Israeli Jews, as a price for continuing to live in Israel, accept simple equality with non-Jews rather than rule over them. Frankly, it is unreasonable suggestions like yours that give Zionists ammunition to distort the goals of their “enemies.” Your solution is a rallying cry for continued oppression and occupation.
I agree with David Samel on this. It is reasonable to demand that Israeli Jews, as a price for continuing to live in Israel, accept simple equality with non-Jews rather than rule over them. Achieving this will be monumental and humane…and necessary. And it’s where everything is going, anyway, if Israel is to exist.
What does that look like to you?
Two areas:
Occupied areas – Clearly the remedy is transfer to PA sovereignty
Israel – Clearly the remedy is full implementation of law supporting equal due process under the law.
Is there any other component that you see?
Taxi never mentioned expulsion. As the fanatics take over Israel, the sane people will leave voluntarily.
Taxi wants “all” the millions of Israeli Jews to return to the European and Arab countries from which they, or their ancestors, emigrated. Do you think this can be done voluntarily? This is a call for expulsion. It’s as much a fairy tale as the Peel Commission recommendation that 225,000 Arabs “voluntarily” move from the area designated as the Jewish State to the Arab State. Even more.
Do you think this can be done voluntarily?
It should, but the fact that it cannot says more about the fanaticism of ethnocrats than it does about anything else. There are 11 million Palestinians in the world. How many of them can live where they want in their homeland? And they are the real claimants, not the ones depending on mythology or made up fiction to stake a claim.
Thanks sammy for seeing it from EVERY SINGLE VICTIMIZED PALESTINIAN’s point of view.
In any court of justice, you do not EVER reward the criminal OR HIS CHILDREN. It’s simply ludicrous to suggest that land thieves and murderers of entire families should be allowed to keep any loot and down the line of time just pass it on to their children as if nothing had happened.
In our courts of justice, you indeed aim to fully redress the grievances of the victim to the last and fair penny.
Occupiers and their (tragic) children DO NOT get to vote on the terms and rules of the compensation to be awarded the victim. It’s downright insanity to suggest that Israel/the criminal has the right to dictate and insist on ‘preferential’ treatment in any decent court of justice.
DAVID SAMEL:
Israel ‘pushed’ millions of Palestinians out. That was ‘allowed’. Well then the same can be done right back to them, mate. What South Africa chose to do is suited for South Africa and not for the Palestinians – totally different sets of complexities with religion added to the Palestinian mix. In other words, what may work for South Africa, does not necessarily work for Palestine. Sad truth is that people of the region don’t themselves believe that ‘peace in the middle east’ is possible with Israel’s continuing existence. They don’t forgive their atrocities lightly and will forever see them as European invaders, con artists falsely claiming ancestral lineage and a chunk of their Abrahamic real estate. They want Judaism in the middle east but they definitely don’t want Zionism. They will fight it and fight and fight till it finally crumbles overspent on an endless chain of pin-prick wars. It happened to Rome, and many other powers since.
WITTY:
Everything changes.
OTH, between 11-14 million ethnic German civilians were expelled from their respective homelands back to the home of their ancient ancestors, Germany and Austria, between 1944-1950. At least 2 million, many of them children, died on the way.
To adopt the view that migration is illegal is to adopt a fascist view.
It really doesn’t matter if that fascist view is in defense of those in power, or those out of power.
It is a maximalist over-reaction, a vengeance, rather than a fixing.
The nazi phenomena was a giant rock thrown in the water which caused utter chaos within Europe, but also sent out waves of affects far and wide. The war was a “world” war. EVERY country in the world was affected by the question of “which side are you on” during the war, and the affects of the war following.
That included every Arab state and community, every European state and community, every Asian state and community.
Everything DOES change, and always has. There has always been migrations from war, from persecution. There has always been migrations from ecological and natural disasters.
From most persecutions, ecological and natural disasters, the migration is a migration FROM some catastrophe. But, there is always a migration TO someplace. That includes migrations to old sought homes (Israel) and to new sought homes (US, Europe).
There definitely was a failure to co-exist, to reconcile, to neighbor, to assimilate to the extent that the communities sought.
Mostly hothead (yes) made that impossible. In Palestine in the 20′s, hotheads protesting Jewish residence in Hebron (all ancient) found them to be excellent “examples” of Zionist intentions. The hotheads came from outside the region, with agendas that for political hegemony (not grassroots thriving and co-existance).
You probably would have joined them Cliff. You sound like old Ezra Pound to me, arguing for fascist themes in the name of “justice”.
Yeah, let’s quit harping on themes like the role of Usury; it has no application then or now, why especially not in the bailout USA; let’s keep on target according to the proper lexicon:
link to australiansforpalestine.com
Thank you Citizen for the info. The said webpage has a lot of wisdom for it really has given me more perspectives about the Gaza war and the Hamas-Israel conflict particularly on the issue of American support. It also gives valuable knowledge over critical factors that affect audience responses; and how reactions and attitudes of the protagonists influence the outcome of a debate such as this webpage.
I think the ideas have led me to the third answer to the question: ‘Why the Palestinians?
Why are we the only ones suffering?’. The ordinary Palestinians suffers because they are the only people at the receiving end of this conflict; that while Hamas forever seek to destroy Israel, the controversies keep raging on, without end seen at the horizon, and the children could never get a chance for themselves.
Here’s a page from the Hasbara Handbook:
First they build a favorable premise (straw-man) and then work against it in their ‘rebuttal’. Obviously, one that is full of shit, considering the formation of a ‘Jewish State’ could not have come about w/o the terrorism of the Jewish forces who ethnically cleansed 800K Palestinians from their homes. Etc. etc.
Bottom-line: you’re full of shit as usual Witty.
Oh and another thing. Like usually, Zionists (European colonists) prop up people of color, who fought against various forms of racism/colonialism, in such a way that it is favorable to their colonialism.
So they say Gandhi was against terrorism. Most likely, but he wasn’t against violence or armed resistance.
Furthermore, they frame all Palestinian resistance in the context of terrorism. Meanwhile, Israel kidnaps Palestinian civilians w/o charge, or with bogus charges to stifle non-violent resistance.
“The Hasbara handbook”?
Like the Palestinian state will emerge because of the efforts to establish the institutions of governance, that is exactly how the Jewish state emerged. It was ready to.
War is a last straw. Responsible work is the preparation and the norm after any qualitative change.
Where responsible work yeilds change, revolution is unnecessary, militancy is unnecessary.
What have you read that has described in detail in the context of the 1948 war where terror occurred? My understanding is that most of what is identified as terror occured in strategic war zones like the Jerusalem to Tel Aviv corridor isolating Jerusalem from Israel.
A Jewish State is a political entity. The notion of building a State of a ethno-religious character alien on top of an indigenous population that had it’s own ethno-religious character was just asking for trouble.
As to the history -
Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, New York: Pantheon, 1987, pp. 81-118. An excerpt (pp. 42, 83-84, 132):
That’s one source. There are plenty more.
Sammy – The fact that millions of Jewish people would not want to voluntarily leave their homeland to reverse a historical injustice says nothing about the fanaticism of ethnocrats. It is fanatic to force them to leave. As for the millions of Palestinians who are unable to live in their homeland, their lot will not be improved by forcing expulsion on millions of others. It is possible to ameliorate the ethnic cleansing crimes committed against them without committing new similar crimes against others. The Jews of Israel do not have to leave to accommodate a right of return of Palestinians.
Taxi – Your thinking is hopelessly muddled. The question isn’t whether Jews born in Israel the last six decades should be “rewarded” by being allowed to stay, but whether they should be punished with expulsion. You conflate the continuing presence of Jews in the region (those whose roots go back only decades rather than centuries) with Israel’s existence as a Jewish State. What would be the mechanism for this massive ethnic cleansing of Jews you envision? Do you think you would find any support in the world community for it? On the other hand, insisting on equal rights for all residents, regardless of ethnicity or religion, and regardless of whether their families have lived there for years, decades, or centuries, is a practical, feasible, and yes, a just solution. It places equality, freedom and justice above the existing reality of Jewish supremacy over non-Jews. Your insistence on expelling millions of Jews is not only barbaric but unjust and fortunately unachievable as well. And as I said before, Israel and its defenders like nothing more than seeing such ridiculous demands, preferring to falsely claim that this is what their enemies want. It is a whole lot easier to say Israel must continue the occupation to avoid mass expulsion or genocide than it is to say that Israel is desperately avoiding equality. I don’t really suspect that you are a pro-Israel mole, but I would expect that a mole would consider making a similar suggestion.
Like I keep saying — if you make Israel-Palestine one state again, the Zionist racists who aren’t especially militant will white-flight their way to the US or Europe. The ones who are militant, are a minority that can be dealt with by the new government like the terrorists and criminals they are.
The Israelis who aren’t racists, will get along just fine.
I think any Israeli who has a conscience should want to leave the place. Any secular Israeli should flee from the religious fanatics. Any nonracist Israeli should flee from the racist fanatics. This leaves the fanatics.
You are trashing on justice, whining that re-confiscation of stolen land is cruel to the land-thief. Go figure!
You really need to understand that what you are suggesting, your solution, is a ‘westernized/sanitized’ proposition and one that IS NOT shared by the people of the region. They utterly reject this solution. They are the ones whose voices I am echoing. It is THEIR will that I repeat. They DO NOT WANT to LIVE with Zionism, and at the end of the day, their will indeed will be done.
Frankly, what you personally think, you sitting in the comfort of your nice existence, is inconsequential to the people of the middle east. They reject your detachment from their grievance. The pleasant ones would politely ask you to re-examine your view of their true catastrophe – the rude ones would tell you, eye to eye, to go F yourself for suggesting that the foreign murderers of their mothers and children should be allowed to live free amongst them. That would be like asking you to accept several million Al Qaida members to live in your region.
Whatever we may think over here, the people of the middle east see Israel as a nazi-esque state and they will fight every inch of it till the end.
If you have a problem with their thinking, if you think that they ‘victimize’ Israel to view it in this way, then you are truly naive. Though you mean well, and this should be acknowledged.
My above posting is directed at DAVID SAMEL.
zamaaz is right about one thing – the constant carping between chaos and witty wastes everyone’s time here.
“Richard Witty is the embodiment of the Jewish zionists,”
Without actually living in Israel? Sorta puts a crimp in the embodiment, don’t it?
Frankly, I don’t think Richard is actually as bad as he claims to be. He just doesn’t want to be a victim of that “forced assimilation” into humanist instead of tribal thinking. But if Richard lived in Israel and had to confront, or even particiapte in Israel’s actions, he would be revolted, and leave as fast as his daul citizenship could carry him.
So I’m not sure if Richard is the embodiment of anything except a guy who is too senile and set in his rhetorical ways to realise that he is impressing nobody but himself. And if he is, they certainly aren’t coming here to support him. Actually that’s good, since Richard actually makes it up as he goes along, more than one would just cause confusion and conflict.
He was willing to make me the embodiment of Hamas, and I’m a white Catholic art student in the Midwest. At least his characterization of Witty actually, you know, made sense.
Moose… :-)
—————————-
I’m not so sure. How would Richard Witty react if he was at a checkpoint denying medical service to a woman giving birth? What would he do if she bled to death before him and her fetus died because the IDF were wondering if they were terrorists? This is a question only Witty can answer. For all you know his paranoia may be sufficient to simply overlook the victims completely and determine that he had done his best as a humanist to be fair to both sides.
One cannot discount the power of self delusion.
Bulls-eye, Mooser!
Liberal. Concerned to create live and let live.
Others may characterize you differently.
Cliff is right that Chaos is not an embodiment of the Hamas leadership.
Hamas is a very socially and politically conservative organization, very intently restricting individual and political liberty (in many of the ways that westerners think of political liberty – freedom to question the validity of the leadership). Chaos presents himself as an anarchist (from my vague memory), concerned with anti-exploitation, and complete individual liberty.
I’m only breaking the resolution just this once because you made me the subject. And only so I can answer the question, end the goddamn distraction and we can go back to talking about Palestinian suffering and Palestinian rights and what to do about the crimes against Palestinians.
I’m a socialist, dumb ass.
Sorry, with the name Chaos I naturally assumed.
Are you really a socialist?
Are you, Dick Witty, really a liberal Zionist? Why not take Chaos at his own
label, as we do yours? In each case it’s up to the rest of us to see what each respectively means by their own label–via their comments.
Thanks,…
By the way, I wrote ‘up to the leaders to decide the fate of their people’ because I presumed Hamas leadership is representative of the Gaza people, and that their system is participatory democracy…
In a democracy, no one party represents the views of the entire nation. Leaders have a thirst for power and do things that are not in the interests of their people – that’s true for Israel and Palestine. It is up to the people to come up with a solution, because only then, will such a solution stick.
Sure zamaaz, and George Bush represented all Americans.
You use superficial truths to your advantage to score rhetorical points. That might work amongst your crowd but not here – liar.
Hamas does advocate for democracy, but it exists within a state of armed conflict with with Israel and with Fatah/PA, and in any state of armed conflict civil liberties and democratic process yeilds to marshall process (wartime).
When that martial process becomes permanent is an open question. But, they are relatively democratic compared to what one might expect in that context.
They tolerate discussion and dissent assuming basic loyalty. They do not tolerate fundamental questioning of their primary tenets, nor of their role. They are scared, rationally and excessively, of sabotage and informants. (Not all that different from Israeli in that respect).
Richard, you’re being inaccurate once again. The PA is the Palestinians’ legislative authority. Legally, at the moment, Hamas is the majority party and is therefore the PA.
Hamas wasn’t in armed conflict with Fatah until Fatah attempted to forcibly remove it from its post as head of the PA. It is not Hamas, but Fatah who are responsible for the breakdown in the democratic basis.
Whether Hamas is really for democracy, we don’t know and we can’t know until the Palestinians have a proper state.
They have been in armed conflict for a long time, including before and certainly after the elections.
Per the constitution, militias were to be disbanded, and the policing responsibility was a responsibility of the president (Abbas, even after Haniyeh was elected prime minister).
Hamas rejected that part of the Palestinian constitution and insisted on keeping their militia and establishing their militia as THE Palestinian police force.
That is the context of the Gaza fire-fights in 2006/7. Why did you omit that in your rhetorical telling?
Are you an enemy of Fatah, and an advocate for Hamas? And, then a current enemy of the PA?
They have been in armed conflict for a long time, including before and certainly after the elections.
According to Wikipedia, there was no conflict between them until after the elections.
Per the constitution, militias were to be disbanded, and the policing responsibility was a responsibility of the president (Abbas, even after Haniyeh was elected prime minister).
Hamas rejected that part of the Palestinian constitution and insisted on keeping their militia and establishing their militia as THE Palestinian police force.
I’ve just looked at the constitution. Nowhere does it mention militias and it says that internal order is the responsibility of the Council of Ministers, NOT the President.
That is the context of the Gaza fire-fights in 2006/7. Why did you omit that in your rhetorical telling?
Why are you omitting the attempted coup that occurred BEFORE the Gaza fire-fights? And the following?
I’m an advocate for Palestinian self-determination, and that includes having the ability to choose their own government without foreign interference. There’s a reason why Fatah lost the election – it should have concentrated on rectifying those flaws instead of attempting to launch a coup.
ARTICLE 39
The President is the Commander-in-Chief of the Palestinian Forces.
ARTICLE 43
The President of the National Authority shall have the right in exceptional cases, which can not be postponed, and while the Legislative Council is not in session, to issue decisions and decrees that have the power of law.
…However, the decisions issued shall be presented to the Legislative Council in the first session convened after the insurance, otherwise they will cease to have the power of law. If these decisions were presented as mentioned above, but were not approved, then they shall cease to have the power of law.
ARTICLE 45
The President of the National Authority shall select the Prime Minister, and task him to form his government. The President shall have the right to remove him, and to accept his resignation, as well as ask him to invite the Council of Members to convene.
ARTICLE 70 — Jurisdictions of the Council of Ministers
The Council of Ministers shall have the following jurisdiction:
…7.The responsibility to maintain public order and internal security.
ARTICLE 84 — Security Forces and Police
1.Security forces and the Police are a regular force. It is the armed forced in the country, its function is to defend the country, serve people, protect the community and maintain public order, security and morals. This force performs its duties within the limits prescribed by law with complete respect to rights and freedom.
2.Security Forces and the Police shall be regulated by law.
ARTICLE 110
1.The President of the National Authority may declare a state of emergency by a decree when there is a threat to national security cased by war, invasion, armed insurrection, or at a time of natural disaster for a period not exceed thirty (30) days.
How does any of that differ from what I’ve said?
I’ve also never seen the term ‘commander-in-chief’ be used for non-military security forces
It does and it doesn’t.
Militias are used for interactions with foreign entities. Commander in Chief refers to a state monopoly of power relative to foreign entities.
There clearly was conflict between the role of the militias relative to foreign policy and the role of police relative to control of the Council of Ministers.
And, it was within the Presidents’ authority to declare a state of emergency relative to an armed insurrection in Hamas’ armed unwillingness to surrender its militia status.
You consistently use the term coup to describe the PA undertaking the establishment of a state of emergency. I don’t see on the part of Abbas.
The PA does not control Gazan foreign policy currently. That seems to be a coup, no?
I didn’t see any mention of obligation of the council of ministers to uphold law by prior administrations. But, that was implied in the judicial section.
The commander-in-chief article assumes an army. There isn’t one, which kind of defeats the point of the article.
Also, there was no armed insurrection. Having a militia in itself isn’t an armed insurrection, especially seeing as Fatah also has its own militia.
The Council of Ministers was run by Hamas as a result of its victory in the elections. IT had the responsibility of maintaining internal security. It was a coup if Abbas attempted to undermine Hamas’ authority to govern.
The PA is no longer in existence seeing as half of its members are in prison (again, arrested illegally). Fatah’s takeover was as democratic as the enabling act.
Finally, the constitution made no implications as to the future of the militias. Just because you wanted it to mean the militias were to be disbanded, doesn’t make it so.
I was in error about the policing responsibility, as clarified by the read of the constitution.
Thanks both of you for such additional inputs…
You know? In think this is one answer to the question raised by this young student…
Because they live in a continuous in a war zone. This is a sad fact, a sad interlude in the struggle for Palestinian nation and dignity.
I was surprised and troubled myself for raising such issue. I do not intend to touch deep wounds between two Palestinian groups. My sincere apology…
I haven’t been on this site for too long but I very quickly come to realize that R. Witty is nothing more than a “troll”. He is here to hijack the discussion and the more people respond to his shallow and hollow statements the more he succeeds. I agree with R. Parker and beg everyone not to respond to Witty’s nonsense. Please.
Yeah, if it makes you feel better, read Witty’s bible; it recommends to say everything Witty says–look at some time spent on his bible as a good investment in efficiency; it certainly will yield easy prediction of Witty’s “thoughts.”
link to australiansforpalestine.com
A Hamas man speaks apropos the election of Hamas–how would you answer him, respond to what he says?
link to yaminzakaria.blogspot.com
Funny how it never occurs to the Western media to actually talk to Hamas
(or most Middle Eastern political entities) and let them answer for themselves, isn’t it?
Ben Stein says we don’t to them because they are all psychopaths. He’s a paid consultant and has a reputation for having a brain.
Information is not wisdom.
People like Obama won’t talk to Hamas because this would force them to recognize their own hypocrisy, the fact that they have turned against justice.
Nothing like explaining the self-declared motivations of “terrorists” and “terrorist organizations” as due merely to a mental illness, to being psychopathic, that is, not based in any reality at all. Could you get a better recipe for what the IT people all “blowback”? What’s the answer? Uncle Sam’s and Israel’s is just to create more enemies on the ground via “collateral damage.” And the impoverished USA masses will pay for it. Happy new Year, USA!
Thanks both of you for such additional inputs…
You know? In think this is one answer to the question raised by this young student…
Because they live in a continuous in a war zone!
This is a sad fact, a sad interlude in the struggle for Palestinian nation and dignity.
I was surprised and troubled myself for raising such issue. I do not intend to touch deep wounds between two Palestinian groups. My sincere apology…
“Hamas is not opposed to the existence of the State of Israel”
That conflicts with their consistent public statements. They state that they accept Palestine at 67 borders. Can you show me an authoritative citation of Haniyeh or Meshal stating that they accept Israel as Israel?
“Give them Alaska, or New York. The Islamic world will give you more than 100% cooperation. By the way, while you are at it, please take with you all the other puppets you have imposed on the Islamic world. As for opposing the existence of Israel in Palestine, this is the opinion of the 1.5 billion Muslims and those who want a compromise, only because they are pragmatic not because they believe it to be a just solution. ”
“Hamas condemns terrorism”
Is this the party that you support Citizen?
That conflicts with their consistent public statements. They state that they accept Palestine at 67 borders.
Well, what do they want as the rest of the area – no-man’s land?
Shafiq,
You didn’t read the statement “give them Alaska”, clarifying that by Palestine, he meant river to sea?
Is that your proposal?
The ‘give them Alaska’ was a to prove a point – the Palestinians were being made to accept a solution that no American would accept. But that doesn’t mean anything if they agree to a Palestinian state at ’67 borders. You still haven’t answered my question – What’s the rest of the land there fore?
So, it wasn’t what he meant?
You keep trying to rub my nose in 67 borders, when it is what I’ve consistently advocated for. (With the exception of the Jewish quarter of the old city of Jerusalem, where the Kotel is.)
You’re making him say things he didn’t say. He hasn’t called for the dismantling of Israel but he has advocated for a Palestine based on 1967 borders. I never claimed you didn’t support the two-state solution – but I did rebut your argument that Hamas didn’t.
Hamas has accepted the 67 Borders numerous times now Witty, you know this as well as anybody else.
Hamas is willing to give you your dream of a TWO state solution, yet you keep balking.
Its for this reason that we are positive that you prefer the ethnic cleansing of Palestine instead of peace.
This is a good discussion. Let’s get more web-links into it. I saw a link from Richard can we get one on the other side as well?
Sometimes I get confused between what a “westerner” would call Palestine and what another person might. For some it might be all of Israel and to some it may be just the West Bank.
Thanks
Actually, I’m struggling to understand what he said.
I don’t have your rosy, charitable impression.
I thought, give them Alaska might be a reference to a Jewish homeland in a far away snowy place. Actually I think there was a proposal floating around for that a long time ago, also a michael chabon book about it.
Why don’t you answer the points the Hamas guy made who wrote the article you quote from, Dick Witty? More generally, why does are government never address
the declared motivations of those they call “terrorists” worthy only to be killed?
You can start with the 9-11 commission findings and come right down to the Yemen guy in the news the last week, the banker’s son who carried a home-made bomb onto the plane.
What points of the long and rhetorical interview do you think I should address?
Just a couple, so that I actually can address points.
I urge all readers here to go to the url I referenced which contains the Palestinian POV not recognized in any way by the USA or Israel: link to yaminzakaria.blogspot.com
Dick Witty can either address the particulars of that POV, or just turn the spotlight on the messenger, me, which he had done.
The frame of the discussion here needs to subsist on simpler more basic terminology. What we are dealing with is not the legal terminology of statehood, which is merely used by Zionism to try to legitimize atrocities, but matters of life and death, right and wrong. The minute we reduce to the basic, Zionism and the current course of Israel is undone. The only plea they are left with is might makes right. Do not allow them to frame the facts which merely obscure truth and reality.
From all the related discussions, I could premise that among the major global actors, the Americans who perhaps having widely Western Christian background cannot be accepted by the Palestinians because if its pro-Israel stand, nor the Europeans who perhaps with its widely ‘humanist’ background widely accepted by the Israelis because of its pro-Palestinians stand; and the final chance supposedly is the UN, but unfortunately it is also accused of being tinted also with bias as it joined into the swamp of ‘emotions and sympathies’ in the Palestinian conflict.
Now the question is, who on this Earth can serve as an acceptable arbiter to settle this conflict?
I think this is the second answer to the question of the young student – because there is no credible venue to achieve lasting settlement of this war.
You’ve got the first bit right, but since when does being a humanist exclude you from being arbiter for peace? The very fact that the humanists have pro-Palestine sympathies, should tell you everything you need to know.
As I too understand your view, Yes at the first glance, but we must go beyond that to be completely balanced. I hope you would understand, that essentially in context, ‘humanism’ is entirely antagonistic to ‘Judaism’ because as the humanist should demand – Human Rights!, the ancient scriptures will react; ‘NO!, it is not the Right, it is Obedience!..’
And sadly, the controversy continues…
“…the Americans who perhaps having widely Western Christian background cannot be accepted by the Palestinians because if its pro-Israel stand, nor the Europeans who perhaps with its widely ‘humanist’ background widely accepted by the Israelis because of its pro-Palestinians stand”
I do have a problem with this statement.
Firstly, nowhere in the US constitution it is mentioned that the US is “christian” country despite the fact that some in the US might think it is. The reason why the US is seen with mistrust is because of its history of bias and unconditional support for Israel. Simply look up the number of vetos cast at the UN security council to block resolutions condemning Israeli actions. It is this obvious and blatant bias which renders the US an unacceptable arbiter or broker of peace and not because it is a Western Christian nation.
Secondly, the Europeans is far too much of a generalization to be of any value. Some European countries have had a humanistic and fair approach, relatively speaking, than others. Britain cannot be put in the same basket as Norway, Sweden and Finland for example. The British were instrumental in the creation of the problem. This has not changed much in terms of the official British policy despite the rhetoric. I am not sure that Israel considers the EU as an unacceptable arbiter. After all in 1956, the attack against Egypt was carried out through the conspiracy between Israel, Britain and France. What has changed is the shift in the center of power from Europe to the US. Having the backing of the “most powerful country” and forging an alliance with it is far more valuable to Israel. This is the reason why Israel insists on US involvement: the US will not try to impose a view that is not acceptable to Israel–this is not say that the EU will mind you. So being “humanist” (a qualification I strongly question with regards to European governments for the most part) has no bearing on Israel’s attitude toward it.
Reliance on governments to achieve a meaningful and lasting peace is the wrong approach because it won’t happen. What needs to happen to force governments to take action is pressure from below like we have seen in the case with Apartheid South Africa. It was pressure from the people that forced the governments to take measures albeit half-heartedly. This is what needs to happen in the case of Israel-Palestine. One thing that we can do is to actively support and call for Boycott, Sanctions and Divestment from Israel. Why Israel? because it is Israel that is occupying Palestinian territory and not the other way round.
The USA is a “Christian” country like Israel is a “Jewish” country, in the sense of farce and for ulterior motives –
<a href="link to youtube.com
THE "CHRISTIAN" NATION
THE “CHRISTIAN” NATION
The Consitution is not a religious document, but it makes no sense to deny that America has always been a Western nation culturally and ethnically. The vast majority of Americans are still Christians, at least culturally, whether or not they appear to be. I seriously doubt that the founders of the colonies or the nation had multiculturalism in mind when they wrote about religious freedom or separation between church and state, and nowhere is multiculturalism mentioned in the Constitution.
Or perhaps you prefer it more plainly put –
CHRISTIAN BLESSINGS
The lyrics to the above link -
“Even in the initial stages of contact between European Christians and
Native Indian people the stage was set for ethnocentrism, and the
attitude towards the Indians was that of Christian superiority. The
Indians were read a proclamation in Spanish which they had no hope of
understanding, they had no hope of understanding the death sentence they
were being read, and it went something like this:
“We ask and require you to acknowledge the church as the ruler and
superior of the whole world and the high priest called pope and in his
name the king of Spain as lords of this land. If you submit we shall
receive you in all love and charity and shall leave you, your wives and
children and your lands free without servitude, but if you do not submit
we shall powerfully enter into your country and shall make war against
you, we shall take you and your wives and your children and shall make
slaves of them and we shall take away your goods and shall do you all
the harm and damage we can.”
2000 years ago we were all tribal.
Then came the missionaries with their fucking bible.
1492 began the termination
The holocaust of our Indian nations
Yeah, with Christian love and a moral authority
They killed our medicine men and stole our country
I never claimed this shit was poetry
It’s just the fucking lies of Christianity
You will pray to the lord and get down on your knees
Here’s a cross for your back and the coughing disease
Though you helped us survive we will laugh while you bleed
Then deny what we did, write our own history
We will kidnap your children and cut off their hair
Silence their language and outlaw their prayers
Beat them blind until they believe
In the blood of Jesus Christ our king
Christians murdered Indians
Columbus murdered children and now we have a holiday
Still you want to deny your history
Look to the sky for your god to justify
As you commit cultural genocide
Christians came and the natives they did hang
13 at a time for Jesus and his gang
We are the ones you had to dehumanize
So your murder and greed could be justified
The belly of the church is full
With the blood of all those heathen fools
Who would not receive the gift of Christ?
So we burned them as a sacrifice
To our baby killing god above
To our mother church and all her love
We will steal their gods and subjugate
Those who don’t believe we’ll annihilate
“The Spaniards made bets as to who would slit a man in two or cut of
his head with one blow. They tore babies from their mother’s breast by
their feet and dashed their head against the rocks. They hanged Indians
by thirteen in honor and reverence for their redeemer and their twelve
apostles. They put wood underneath and with fire burned the Indians
alive.”
Christians murdered Indians
We believe in the earth, the sky and dreams
The universe and the creator who gave us these
The sacred gift of life and human beings
That makes you perpetrate the hate to ahnilate
So here I am the savage civilized
Voice of the dead and my ancestor’s cries
And like the ghosts of this land you can’t erase
I see blood on the hands of the master race.
500 years of manifest destiny
500 years of resistance to the enemy
You have faith in the rivers, the mountains, the trees
We’ve a murdering god to replace all of these
With the blood of forgiveness you too can be free
Or the wrath of Jehovah you’re sure to receive
We will baptize you with the blood of the lamb
With the sword and the gospel we will conquer your land
You will join our church and be glad to be saved
Or we’ll slaughter your children and your women we’ll rape.
Christians murdered Indians
I see blood on the hands of the master race.”
V, I have no idea what your background is, but I would guess that you don’t live on a reservation, and you ancestors probably didn’t come to the U.S. to live the life of the natives. I seriously doubt that you have any intention of giving up whatever your standard of living is, but want to use Indian suffering to advance the interests of whatever ideological or ethnic group you belong to against traditional America. Are you an anti-Israel internal Zionist, a multiculturalist or something else?
Todd, I am both anti-Zionist and anti-capitalist, an anarchist. Quite frankly I do not care how much you balk at what I wrote, nor do I give a shit about a “standard of living” based on the blood if innocents – either in the USA or Israel. I reprobate settler states, and the mentioning of one (USA) does not excuse the other, but condemns them both.
It is an interesting point that this statement made by the little Palestinian child is the same asked by Crazy Horse (and mentioned in the lyric of this song rhymed I an about to post). Both of these nations, USA and Israel, need to be dismantled for what they have done and currently do. If you want to argue about the history of the USA, let me assure you that by the time you are done you will wish you never embarked on the process on this site.
“What law have I broken – What wrong have I done -That makes you want to bury me -
Upon this trail of blood?”
The general rode for sixteen days
The horses were thirsty and tired
On the trail of a renegade chief
One he’d come to admire
The soldiers hid behind the hills
That surrounded the village
And he rode down to warn the chief
They’d come to conquer and pillage
Lay down your arms
Lay down your spear
The chief’s eyes were sad
But showed no sign of fear
(chorus)
It is a good day to die
Oh my children dry your eyes
It is a good day to die
He spoke of the days before the white man came
With his guns and whisky
He told of a time a long time ago
Before what you call history
The general couldn’t believe his words
Nor the look on his face
But he knew these people would rather die
Then have to live in this disgrace
What law have I broken
What wrong have I done
That makes you want to bury me
Upon this trail of blood
(chorus)
We cared for the land and the land cared for us
And that’s the way it’s always been
Never asked for more never asked too much
And now you tell me this is the end
I laid down my weapon
Laid down my bow
Now you want to drive me out
With no place left to go
(chorus)
And he turned to his people and said dry your eyes
We’ve been blessed and we are thankful
Raise your voices to the sky
It is a good day to die”
ANTI-CAPITALISM
The reason why the questions are the same, is because the same thing is going on.
CRAZY HORSE
“Crazy Horse
We Hear what you say
One earth one mother
One does not sell the earth
The people walk upon
We are the land
How do we sell our mother
How do we sell the stars
How do we sell the air
Crazy Horse
We hear what you say
Too many people
Standing their ground
Standing the wrong ground
Predators face he possessed a race
Possession a war that doesn’t end
Children of god feed on children of earth
Days people don’t care for people
These days are the hardest
Material fields material harvest
decoration on chains that binds
Mirrors gold the people lose their minds
Crazy Horse
We Hear what you say
One earth one mother
One does not sell the earth
The people walk upon
We are the land
Today is now and then
Dream smokes touch the clouds
On a day when death didn’t die
Real world time tricks shadows lie
Red white perception deception
Predator tries civilising us
But the tribes will not go without return
Genetic light from the other side
A song from the heart our hearts to give
The wild days the glory days live
Crazy Horse
We Hear what you say
One earth one mother
One does not sell the earth
The people walk upon
We are the land
How do we sell our mother
How do we sell the stars
How do we sell the air
Crazy Horse
We hear what you say
Crazy Horse
We hear what you say
We are the seventh generation
We are the seventh generation”
No difference in act, however there is a difference in timing and how long the atrocities have been happening to the Palestinians, plus a demographic difference. In other words, what is happening to the Palestinians is stoppable, before it is too late.
Then I’m right: You are using the American Indian to advance your political ideology.In that sense, you are no different than a Zionist. My guess is that you live a lifestyle typical in the West. And where do you get the idea that American Indians are in favor of anarchy? Is that even what you claim?
Alex Kane, the young man whose letter about Gaza we commented on earlier. And there he is, in Gaza, and seeing it for himself. I’m glad we got more posts from him and I hope there are more, and I can’t wait to hear what he has to say when he gets back.
But gee, the question has a simple answer, I thought: Because the Palestinians were the ones who got in the way of the Zionists.
But there had to be somebody in the way, and of course the Zionists had to push them out of the way, all part of breeding that Brave New Jew they’re supposed to have in Israel. So manifestly disgusting. And so, so stupid. If you are going to predicate your religion on martial prowess, you sorta need to have a bit more than less than twenty million people, all told, and a way of making up for losses. They will end up chucking a nuclear bomb or two at someone before it’s all over.
How about this little incident indicating the key split in thinking about American foreign policy?
link to examiner.com
Here’s the video clip; you guess who is rational and who is the psychopath:
link to trueslant.com
Ben Stein spells out US foreign policy as to be dedicated to supporting Israel, no matter how many grunts it takes. Ron Paul and George Washington are wrong.
link to examiner.com
Alex gets to the heart of the problem when he says that the Palestinians’ crime was to be born where they were. The Zionist dream of creating a Jewish State in Palestine had to overcome various obstacles. The existence of a people already living there was just one such obstacle, to be overcome along with the hot, arid climate, the logistical difficulties in arranging mass emigration, etc. The Palestinians were an inconvenience. Originally, they were not hated any more than the scarcity of water was hated. But over the course of the last century, it has become necessary to blame these people for refusing to simply hand over their land to a foreign people with a “superior” claim. Many of the fundamental tenets of hasbara were created to serve this purpose. Palestinians have been blamed not only for refusing to “share” like kindergarteners, but even for contributing to the Holocaust, on the theory that their “leader,” the Mufti, was a Nazi sympathizer, and because the Palestinians supposedly could have saved a million more victims had they agreed to the Peel Commission report. Of course, over the past few decades, most of the justification for victimizing Palestinians has been “terrorism,” which amounts to violent (inexcusable, in my view) resistance against far more devastating and inexcusable violence directed at them. It literally has become necessary to invent absurd reasons to attribute crimes collectively to the Palestinians in order to justify how Israel has wrecked their lives. The wrecking itself cannot be disputed, so they must have deserved it; otherwise, Israel’s very legitimacy is questioned. Alex is not only a courageous activist, he understands the fundamental problem at the core of this miserable situation – the very existence of an inconvenient population.
Yehuda Bauer (Director–Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial) said that if this phrase were this:Alex gets to the heart of the problem when he says that the Jews’ crime was to be born where they were, then the problem is anti-semitism. Bauer in a 1993 interview with Michael Dunn:
But consider this:
Does everybody really want peace in Palestine? One principle in the art of conflict resolution is – giving value to the sentiments of both parties in conflict…This is what I drive, Mooser; not lies, nor desire to destroy any one’s feelings, ideas or beliefs here…It is your valuable right to express your sentiments, that we too may see the ‘truth’ – this is what this website suggest. In fact, I also appreciate the rebuttals of Richard Witty, because I think he too, on the other hand like me, just attempts to stretch wider your arguments, as two sentiments in collision can somehow met at certain points…Why are you fuming mad and seemed afraid to confront some contentious issues and arguments that all conceivable obstacles maybe removed permanently and free everyone to see and meet at certain points?…I am just sad to say, you really misunderstood us…
That nine-year-old girl crying out does. Son of a bitch, what is it going to take to get you people to actually see the Palestinians as humans, anyway? There are photos, there are testimonies, there are reams upon reams of documentation of what’s been done to them at this point. When are you people going to start looking at Palestinians and seeing human beings with human motivations, huh?
Goddammit, you know what? You guys are right. The centerpiece of this article was about a suffering nin-year-old child calling out to have her suffering acknowledged by the world, And Richard Witty came here to stand in front of her and shout his hasbara.
Part of me actually feels sorry for Witty, if you look at him here, and look at him at Realistic Dove, he’s shunned by all sides — he’s not “Zionist” enough for even half-assed condemning crimes against humanity by Israel. And if you read between the lines of what personal details he reveals, he’s found himself isolated, academically and professionally as well.
New Year’s Resolution, guys — alright, I’ll give Witty what he really deserves. I see that now. I’m going to stop replying to his posts and focus on the actual content of the articles.
Thank you Chaos. Now let’s collectively think and propose actions on how to support the Free Gaza Movement, the people of Gaza and the Palestinian struggle in general. We all have ideas and so let’s share those ideas.
One thing I wish could happen is the coalescing of the multitude of solidarity groups into a world wide coalition to coordinate efforts. I believe this would have a much bigger effect than each group doing its own thing in their own little corner.
“This will likely be the year that the situation improves for Gazan civilians.
In at least the short-term, so long as shelling of civilians doesn’t resume, activists keeping the condition of Gazans in the world’s eye, will cause a relaxation of limitations on border crossings in both the Israeli and Egyptian borders.
Hopefully, in the mid and long term, the issues that rationally restrict the access of Gazan civilians will be resolved by communication and mutual acceptance.
Hopefully, it will come about by consented and kind persuasion, and not by revolution, coup, military intervention in either Gaza, Egypt or Israel. ”
This was my first post on the topic, you oafs.
Witty is obfuscating what’s been happening on the ground for decades. He is merely
adapting the Israel Project’s bible of how to propagandize to this blog.
Anyone else struck by the total lack of rational logic it is to blame Hamas for the collective punishment of every man, woman and child in Gaza? Israel chose to enforce the blockade. The shelling has stopped and Israel still chooses to attack Gaza, week after week.
But of course, certain people on these boards refuse to acknowledge facts like that. The only want to stand in front of nine-year-old children and shout down about how it is their own fault that Israel is breaking international law left, right and center.
Yes! Make it so! Two people standing in front of the message is worse than one.
Mass suffering follows US military aid and foreign policies wherever they may go. Whomever is in its way or attempts to confront it will suffer mightily.
“Realizing this fact is heartbreaking and disgusting to think about. This memory will only make me fight harder back in the States to do my best to break the siege on Gaza from there. I must, and I promised this to all of the wonderful Palestinians I have met so far. But will that be enough?”
A large part of the problem is with Israel’s supporters in the U.S., and fighting those people tooth-and-nail would go a long way towards making the U.S. and Palestine better places.
Unfortunately, Israel’s supporters over here are perfectly willing to set fire to the United States if that’s what it will take to maintain the balance of power. We’re already seeing it — just look at what Joe Lieberman and Rahm Emmanuel colluded to accomplish with destroying health care reform. The Republicans could have never accomplished that without them.
I agree, Chaos, andI suspect that Liebermann and Emanuel skate for the same reasons that J-Steet isn’t confronted as being a sham operation and AIPACs little sister.
If you want a sense of the media that the Germans had during WWII, consider the US media’s coverage of Israel/Palestine.
The only time you see a map of Israel’s borders is when there has been a bombing within Israel. Such maps are irrelevant when Israel exterminates its terrorist enemies outside its borders whether that be occupied East Jerusalem, the occupied West Bank, or Gaza. Palestinians don’t qualify as worthy victims our media considers the Iranians to be as they protest their government’s actions..
If you liked the coverage our media did of last year’s “war” by Israel against the Gazans, you would appreciate the coverage of the German media during the war against armedd terrorists in the Warsaw Ghetto.
CNN has a dumbed down version of its English language international for its American audience. The Israel Lobby is hardly alone in the continuing censorship that prevents Al Jazeera English from American cable companies. 100% of our media moguls are white supremacists; the racist coverage of the slaughter of the Palestinians, both Muslim and Christian, makes that more than clear.
And finally, why don’t American Jews object to the reappearance in our media of WWI era anti-Semitic images of swarthy Eastern European Jews with their ragged beards, big noses, and scowling sneering expressions, but no longer wearing yarmulkes but now dressed as Middle Eastern mullahs for the American audience?
The ‘eye for eye’ principle is found in Hammurabi’s Code, attributed to the 18th century BC, and must have seemed like the most unquestionable common sense to many people for many centuries. It does presuppose the ideas of proportionate and disproportionate response, the idea which Israel so vigorously scorned. It would make a difference to public debate in the West if these ideas were taken seriously and generally accepted.
Of course these ideas are modified in most people’s minds by the contrast between self-defence by a legitimate government and impermissible assaults by ‘terrorists’ – and Israel exploits this line of modification to suggest that it is acting disproportionately because it is the legitimate force. Of course anti-Zionists might find themselves compelled by logic to turn this suggestion upside down by saying, hard as it is to say, that Hamas is the legitimate government of Palestine.
For what it’s worth I quite value chaos’ contributions.
“Of course these ideas are modified in most people’s minds by the contrast between self-defence by a legitimate government and impermissible assaults by ‘terrorists’…”
Normative rules are determined by power relations. Those with power determine what is legal and illegal. They besiege the weak in legal prohibitions to prevent the weak from resisting. For the weak to resist is illegal by definition. Concepts like terrorism are invented and used normatively as if a neutral court had produced them, instead of the oppressors. The danger in this excessive use of legality actually undermines legality, diminishing the credibility of international institutions such as the United Nations. It becomes apparent that the powerful, those who make the rules, insist on legality merely to preserve the power relations that serve them or to maintain their occupation and colonialism.
I too agree the presupposition of proportionate response is indeed quite nobel idea, but if everyone should notice the equitable ‘eye-for an-eye’ principle of justice is only applicable under the rule of law, or under the regime of civil law! My question is, under a war situation or martial dispensation which is basically overruled by the demands of battle, why can’t we find sensible application of said equitable principle?
Why do you keep posing hypothetical situations when we have plenty of real-life ones?
More Palestinian civilians are killed by the Israeli government, than Israeli civilians are killed by the Palestinian militias and terrorists.
Palestinians are the ones under occupation and colonization.
Aside from the outright massacres like Gaza 2008 – there is the on-going daily theft of their land and resources and the brutality that it necessitates.
I mean, the only people I ever notice making obfuscated purely rhetorical arguments are liars or intellectually dishonest commentators like Richard Witty.
I have seen your other posts, and they are also similar to Witty’s style of writing a lot w/o saying much.
Oh but, you are also religious? Or at least, you add in your religious babble to seem slightly different from Witty. I think that would be called ‘Magical Thinking’ in this context.
And no it’s not ‘nobel’ – it’s SANE to not kill 1200-1300 people (mostly civilians) and destroy their society (which you spent time degrading and de-developing [See: Sara Roy's 'The Gaza Strip, The Political Economy of De-Development]) after a fraction of those people begin firing rockets as retaliation for YOU strangling them to death.
I’ll say it again, the only reason we spend so much time debating Zionism is because of the social taboo of discussing Jewish identity and power.
I mean, look at how often people respond to Witty here. Or yonira? Who are they? Just regular people. I mean so is Alex Kane. But when you attach a label to them (identity politics), like ‘Jewish’ such and such, then we’re paying attention more. I don’t get it.
Chomsky often says ‘Imagine if Aliens were to observe what is transpiring here on Earth’.
The point of that statement in this context is that we should imagine what an ‘outside observer’ would think of Israel – Palestine, when presented w/ the facts.
This outside observer wouldn’t be ‘affected’ by the antisemitism card and all the other point-scoring rhetorical tactics outlined in the World Union of Jewish Students’ “Hasbara Handbook: Promoting Israel on Campus.”
( link to muzzlewatch.com
)
Would they honestly even think twice about zamaaz or Witty? Or quickly identify them as distractions/diversions from plain-in-sight truth of this conflict?
Chaos,
This is true of just about every topic on this site, and when he is deprived of this stance, or usurped, he blames Phil for not paying enough attention to his point-of-view.
Thank you, Alex Kane, for writing a haunting realization. I hope that when you return to the US that we will hear more from you here on this site. You have two bonafides: you’re Jewish and you’ve been to Gaza. Do not underestimate the power of these two elements, esp. when used in concert.
We have your back with whatever you want to accomplish as a result. Dont forget that. Do not slight what we can possibly do to help you.
Gaza Scorecard – Rami Khouri
link to dailystar.com.lb
Israeli Navy Attacks Gazan Fishing Boats
link to liveleak.com
RE: the American school in Gaza City was “built by USAID [and by U.S. tax dollars], and destroyed by the US Army.”
MY COMMENT: The “LORD” gave, and the “LORD” hath taken away; accursed be the name of the landLORD!
P.S. “Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither.” – Job (1:21)
Nice, your verses are very interestingly connected. I will also contribute a few; ‘And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.’ (John 8:32), and “…and be sure your sin will find you out.” (Numbers 32:23)
And Job, in his exaltation (Job 1:21) has further said; “Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?” (Job 9:12)
“The description of “eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” means equally “ONLY an eye for an eye, ONLY a tooth for a tooth . . . ”
I think it more accurately means the punishment should fit the crime. Under this definition, it also means “AT LEAST an eye for an eye.”
Can’t help but think of that title and poetry line “eyeless in Gaza.”
Take both eyes from he who took your eyelash? The point is made by MHughes very effectively.
Here’s a little about the origin of Eyeless In Gaza as a literary term:
link to sorryalltheclevernamesaretaken.blogspot.com