At the Forward, Josh Nathan-Kazis flashes shoe-leather in a smart follow-up to Alan Dershowitz’s calling Richard Goldstone an "evil" "traitor" to the Jewish people on Israeli radio. Dersh blames it on a language misunderstanding, then retracts his retraction. Note the scary Rabin-assassination angle Nathan-Kazis has picked up. (Also: to the uninitiate, momzer in my headline means bastard in Yiddish, though if you had to have that explained, I’d advise you to take a Yiddish course in a hurry, such ignorance is as they used to say at Goldman, Sachs, a CLM, career-limiting-move. Leo Rosten defines momzer as a stubborn, difficult man.) The Forward:
The outspoken Harvard Law School professor has told the Forward that he didn’t intend to call the lead author of the controversial Goldstone Report a moser, a Jew who informs on other Jews, in a recent interview on Israel Army Radio. Indeed, Dershowitz, who graduated from a Jewish elementary school and high school, says that he does not even know the meaning of the word — a term from Jewish religious law that the assassin of Yitzhak Rabin cited to describe why the Israeli leader deserved to die.
Instead, Dershowitz claims that he thought he was telling his interviewer that the South African jurist was “absolutely” a “monster.”…
“I wrote to the broadcaster, retracting my word ‘traitor,’” Dershowitz told the Forward. “But if you’re asking me deep in my heart and soul do I believe that the word fairly characterizes him, in light of the way he’s used his Jewishness, both as a shield and a sword? You know, if the shoe fits.”
…In the Israeli Army Radio segment, “Ma Boer” host Razi Barkai asked Dershowitz regarding Goldstone, “Do you hint, professor, that he is a moser, someone who betrays his own people?”
“Absolutely,” Dershowitz responded.
The term moser entered the Israeli political discourse in 1995 in the wake of Rabin’s assassination by radical settler supporter Yigal Amir, when Amir cited some rabbis’ designation of Rabin as a moser as part of his justification for carrying out the murder.
Richard Silverstein corrects me: Mamzer is Hebrew.
It’s very foolish, Philip, to consider the Israel situation from a purely American viewpoint.
Israel is a shitty little country in the Levant, given far too much money and arms for its own good.
Attacking Alan Dershowitz (c### that he is) does no good at all.
I doubt if Alan Dershowitz ever reads your blog.
But if a search on Google for Dershowitz brings your blog name up, then you’re doing well.
This is exactly the problem, debating Goldstone rather than the substance of the report. Is Goldstone a traitor only out for his personal gain? I don’t know! But with so many people suffering why focus on Goldstone? Especially since he is a Zionist. Did you ever consider that is what he wants us to do?
BSD: Is Goldstone a traitor only out for his personal gain? I don’t know!
That, my dear BSD, is called defamation of character. Your statement presumes he is a traitor and sneaks in the implication that he may even be the lowest kind of traitor (the kind that does it for “personal gain”). Very sleazy. I’m on the verge of clicking the “report abuse” button.
Go ahead and bury the report deeper. If you can’t see that focusing on Goldstone is what doomed the report than there is something seriously wrong here.
Here is a better way to put it, what would you rather see? Justice for Arabs in Gaza? Or justice for Justice Goldstone?
They are not necessarily related . . . nor are they mutually exclusive. And by the way, BSD, it’s not “Justice for Arabs” in Gaza. It’s justice for all peoples, including Jews, Christians, Muslims, Islams, Hindu — everyone. Free Palestine and respect Goldstone.
BSD,
It’s comments like this that get you called troll. You are being pointlessly and illogically argumentative. The content of the Goldstone report has been discussed at great length on this site. A discussion of the way in which some Zionists have been smearing Goldstone is also a worthy topic and in no way precludes discussing the content of the report.
Now, if you want to talk about flour mills and sewage plants and agricultural land and white phosphorous and the murder of non-combatants and collective punishment on this thread as well, no one’s stopping you.
Thanks Shmuel, I would much rather do that because focusing too much on Goldstone obscures these important issues.
Goldstone IS the report. His name is being dragged through the mud, BECAUSE of the report.
It’s interchangeable.
I mean, tell me how we’re supposed to talk about this report without being confronted with Goldstone this and Goldstone that.
And ANYWAYS – the criticism of Goldstone is F****** STUPID!
He’s a ‘traitor’? Kapo? Etc. etc.?
Zionists say that crazy stuff about anyone who criticizes them. Have you read the hasbara manuals? It’s never been about sincere debate – its about STALLING an honest and open discussion of Zionism, so Israel can establish facts on the ground that determine all final status blah blah.
Running out the clock as it were. Zionists went right to work on turning Gaza 2008 into ‘history’ (old, “can’t look back now” -type of history, the kind Richard Witty refers to when addressing Palestinian suffering, it’s all HISTORY and we should all forget it and just ‘accept’ “peace”) as soon as the Operation was over.
And no, we shouldn’t leave Goldstone behind while a legion of fascist morons try to burn him at the stake.
So please, go ahead, BSD. Tell us what you think of the topics I mentioned.
Which one? That’s a lot!
Pick one. Any one.
Your fumbling reminds me of an old Hartzufim (Israeli “Spitting Image”) sketch starring Netanyahu’s puppet, avoiding actually answering a question for about 5 minutes. “That’s a very good question, which deserves an equally good answer. And we have answers, good answers, beautiful answers, to that wonderful question of yours …”
The flour mill is particularly interesting. Israel recently insisted this was “artillery accident” while aiming against fire in that area, while the guardian insists it has evidence of an air dropped bomb. CAMERA attempts to prove that the events in question happened days after the witnesses are quoted.
Actually one thing Goldstone could do is refute some of the claims from the IDF, CAMERA and others in his talks! Why leave it to bloggers to do? Especially when right wing bloggers are far better funded to promote their line?
Yes BDS, but what do you think? We know what Israel claimed, and we know what the Guardian wrote (citing UN munitions experts), and we could easily have guessed what CAMERA would say.
Your advice to Justice Goldstone is also noted, although misplaced since he has already carried out his investigation and presented his evidence. There is no need for him to “refute” anyone.
But what is your opinion of the bombing of the flour mill, based on the reports here (including excerpts from the Goldstone report and the Israeli rebuttal), in the Guardian, Camera, wherever – directly or indirectlyt related to the incident. What conclusions have you reached?
I haven’t reached any conclusions yet because I really don’t know. I wish so much that I did. It’s for this reason that I’m on this website to try to learn about new information that may not be presented elsewhere as well as other viewpoints. I read blogs from the left right and center, actually I find myself getting most of my news from blogs these days!
I don’t know why the mill was hit, how it was it, what it was hit by, I don’t know anything! With so much conflicting information, it’s really difficult.
Thank you for that informative answer. But are you sure that is what “he would want us to do”?
No I’m not sure that Goldstone, as a Zionist would want people to rather bicker about his integrity than the report itself. Sometimes it seems that way, but I can’t be sure.
I give up, BSD. You are much better at inane side-tracking fluff than I am.
“Is Goldstone a traitor only out for his personal gain? I don’t know!”
“Which one?”
“I haven’t reached any conclusions yet because I really don’t know.”
“With so much conflicting information, it’s really difficult.”
“Sometimes it seems that way, but I can’t be sure.”
What an ass. And a waste of time. Since you admittedly don’t know shit, shut the f*ck up and let the adults talk.
You don’t suppose that whoever authored the report would have received the same treatment or worse? Starting with “anti-semite”?
more mindless filler.
Work on you website BDS, it’s pretty light.
I can’t tell if you’re just stupid or a troll acting stupid.
Is there a difference?
It’s a curious turn of events actually.
We’ve had all sorts of trolls on the blog. BSD is trying a new approach. So I applaud him for his creativity.
another sociopath on the loose, probably
gets a hard-on wasting peoples time.
No applause here…
BSDNOW – you poor little prat.
Try reading the relevant part of the Goldstone report, the Israeli defence of their action, and the Guardian and Independent reports. All of those have been cited here, on this website. All you have to do is to use the search function (top right hand corner) look for flour mill and you’ll find them all.
I’ve read them all, however I don’t think we have reached the end of that particular story and should be hearing new information soon to augment what we already know.
How long are you prepared to wait? If, by “augment” you mean “justify” the bombing of the only operating flour mill in Gaza (a non-military target), it could be a long wait.
Since 1948 the only new information about forcible eviction of hundreds of thousands of families from their homes simply augments the thesis that it was a particularly cruel ethnic cleansing.
Perhapst the new information, so eagerly awaited by some, is the news that the Palestinians have gone the way of the native Americans – into oblivion.
Ain’t gonna happen. Not before the bluebells forget to bloom and the clover has lost it’s perfume.
link to youtube.com
Until we can be sure of the truth
Justice Goldstone (who has a fair amount of experience in his trade) interviewed the owner of the flour mill both privately and publicly, and published his conclusions about the matter in the ‘Goldstone Report’.
The Israeli military authorities, though, did not interview the owner, but lifted part of his testimony from the Goldstone Report itself. They also did not view the crime scene after the event, as both Guardian and Independent reporters did.
is what he wants us to do?
Would please stop this “us” business, you insult us every time you try to insinuate yourself into our group. Face it, you are a lonely loser.
Goldstone is a self proclaimed Zionist Jew.
“Goldstone is a self proclaimed Zionist Jew.”
Which proves he must be lieing about his motives and aims and ends? You are really, really getting yourself in deep here, pal.
“Is Goldstone a traitor only out for his personal gain?”
Tell me, you evil schmendrick, what has Goldstone gained, besides a whole lot of tsuris from fools like you?
You keep on accusing him of gain? What exactly is this gain? Will he get a check from Hamas?
This was the same exact technique Witty used when Phil came back from Gaza. He kept on accusing him of being corrupted, or brainwashed.
Well, you’ll have a much harder time doing that to Goldstone!
Sorry, mis-spoke.
“Especially since he is a Zionist. “
Got a real high opinion of the character and ethics of Zionists, huh? What a stupid, desperate, ploy! Strictly from hunger, that one!
Dershowitz is as pathological a liar as I have ever seen. Nevertheless, on this, I find it completely plausible (not necessarily credible) that he did not understand the word used in the question and/or the historical context vis-a-vis Rabin, and was not remotely calling for any physical harm to come to Goldstone. Still, his vicious, dishonest attacks on a man who is on the complete opposite end of the integrity spectrum deserve exposure and humiliation.
David, you can’t trust a man who won’t get his Yiddish right.
Dershowitrz was pretty sure when he accused Finkelstein of believing that his mother (who was a concentration camp survivor) was a kapo . Why should we believe that Dershowitz has changed his habits?
When I first saw the words “traitor … evil evil man … protocols” my first association was with Rabin, but then I thought, that’s what all Israeli lefties say everytime someone says something nasty from the right. Barkai had the same thoughts, and decided to force the issue a little with Dersh. He may very well not know what a “moser” is. I know some people his age who went to the same schools and came from similar family backgrounds, and they may not know the word either. Whether he does or not however, I’m now convinced the comparison to the incitement before Rabin’s assassination is more apt than knee-jerk.
It’s infuriating that The Dersh can go out and spew hateful, anti-Semitic tripe in the direction of a great and gifted man of Goldstone’s caliber and have no repercussions from the higher-ups at Harvard Law.
In this post, Phil notes the renowned Goldman Sachs acronym CRM (“Career-Limiting Move”); Dersh can spout bigoted language and attack people ad hominem without fear of reprisals and it’s not CRM. Meanwhile, it was The Dersh who went nuclear on academic freedom by destroying Finkelstein’s chances at tenure and taking away his livelihood. Criticism of Israel, especially that by Jews of conscience, is a CRM in this country.
PS — Phil, great title for the post . . . momzer is a spot-on description for the Dersh. Inglourious momzer, indeed!
Hey, Dershowitz apparently can lift entire texts plagiarizing them in his book (unfortunately he plagiarizes hoaxes….lol), and Harvard says anything. Why should they go after him for a few choice words?
Not being a Hebrew, Yiddish, or even American speaker, I don’t follow the discussion at this point. If I don’t understand a word, I simply look it up on Google:
Moser is more difficult – example:
So I’ll leave it to you Hebrew-speakers to sort out.
But, if Yigal Amir, whose assassination of Yitzhak Rabin caused as much of a setback to Israel as the JFK assassination caused in America, really used the word moser we should try to translate it.
I think he was using it in the form as ‘turncoat’.
Some time before, Rabin broadcast the ‘break the bones’ strategy
Broken Bones And Broken Hopes
link to zmag.org
link to youtube.com
Broken Bones And Broken Hopes
link to zmag.org
just about sums it up.
I can tell you, firsthand, from living in Jordan at that time, that Rabin’s murder had a very profound effect. No-one believed Yigal Amir was a ‘lone assassin’ ; everyone knew he was encouraged and sponsored by right-wing Israelis.
Turncoat is a good one. Apostate, backslider, Judas,
*sorry i pressed submit accidentally too soon. My list continues:
Apostate, backslider, Judas, seceder, recreant,
Aaawwwh ugh i did it again – too sleepy – you get my point anyway i hope.
Good Night Ladies and Gentlemen, both zio-do’s and zio-don’ts.
Moser, from the verb msr, meaning to hand over. In the context of Jewish religious law, it is perhaps best translated “betrayer”.
Maimonides, Laws of Injury and Damages 8, 9-11:
The late Justice Haim Cohn explained the context of this law as follows:
Phil, Good editorial in the Jewish Press against J-Street and specifically Yvete Clarke.
link to jewishpress.com
Part about changing parties:
“One final note. All the congressional signatories to the letter were Democrats. Isn’t it long past time that the Jewish community reconsider its visceral identification with the Democratic Party? Or is Israel really that far down the list of American Jewish concerns?”
Isn’t ‘mamzer’ is the Hebrew word for the child of an unlawful relationship, roughly equivalent to ‘bastard’? There are those who argue that Jesus was one such.
The name of Dersh is mentioned – perhaps it should not be mentioned in the same breath as Jesus – in at least loose connection with the legal threats to the British Universities and Colleges Union, of which I’m a member, that have so far stopped it from supporting BDS. It was when these threats first appeared that I first began to think that BDS might be a good idea.
There are those who argue that Jesus was one such. I didn’t know that one. As in the joke “Quick Mary, close the window! It’s that dove again!” ?
The main proponent is the prolific Professor Bruce Chilton of Bard College. I’m just reading his lively and imaginative reconstruction of the life of Mary Magdalene.
link to counterpunch.org
Shahid Alam literally cuts through the bullshit.
His articles are always an excellent read.
CAMERA attempts to prove that the events in question happened days after the witnesses are quoted.
On many Zionist webpages and blogs it was argued that the satellite photo from January 16 didn’t show damage to the flour mill, so it couldn’t have been bombed on January 9 as the Palestinian witness claimed.
But then came the IDF’s version and they gave the date for the attack as January 9-10, just as the witness had testified.
Maybe the IDF was too focused on denying that the attack was carried out from the air and neglected to coordinate the date detail with CAMERA? Or is it that they’ve got so much spin to do that certain discrepancies and inconsistencies are inevitable?
They have devolved to a drunkard in a bar that has been drinking all night, the disconnected stories just keep coming…
Flour Mill
How could anyone discriminate on the timing between an attack in the late night of Jan 9th, against one that actually happened in the very early morning (still dark) of Jan 10th?
Who, woken up in the middle of the night to be advised of an Israeli bomb attack on his property, would recollect the exact date and timing six months later for Goldstone?
Did he check his watch at the time of the call? Or did he just rush out and try to save what was left? (Hamada had $1.5million invested in that plant).
CAMERA’s response is illuminating:
CAMERA’s response ignores something large – whatever could Gazans have done with the f***ing wheat they received?
“Momzer muffs moser”
Sound downright kinky to me.
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Richard Silverstein corrects me: Mamzer is Hebrew
Mamzer is both Hebrew and Yiddish (although the pronunciation is slightly different). The origin is Classical Hebrew (Deuteronomy 23:3), and means product of an illicit sexual union (similar but not identical to the English “bastard”). In Yiddish, the word took on the connotations noted by Richard Parker, above. The Modern Hebrew usage of the word comes directly from the Yiddish, and not from Classical Hebrew.
Hey let’s cheer for ethnic favor. It’s called legal in the usa, so long as its not “white.”