Fareed Zakaria nails it, in Newsweek:
Meanwhile, the central problem persists: Israel rules more than 3 million Palestinians who will never become citizens of Israel and yet do not have their own state. As they multiply, Israel’s status as a democracy becomes more and more complex; the country looks more and more like an island of rich Israelis set in a sea of Palestinian serfs.
Nonsense.
Serfs in the European Feudal system had rights.
Palestinians can use route 443, but Israel will seize Palestinian land to ‘secure’ it
Anyone want to bet that Palestinians will either never actually gain access to the road, or have it suspended after some seemly interval, and the seized land won’t be returned?
Aren’t serfs people tied to the land, bought and sold along with it, and not permitted to leave? A rather ironical word for the Palestinians. ‘Helots’ might be better.
Very ironical.
One of the rights of a serf was that he could not be displaced from the land.
link to britainexpress.com
Well, “displaced” is rather ambiguous. The Jewish magnates who owned the peasants of the Ukraine could “displace” them six feet under with no real interference. Which goes a long way to explaining why there are no more Jewish magnates in theUkraine.
Peasants are not serfs, and Jewish magnates did not feel themselves bound by the principles of natural law or the chivalric values of nobility, but did not the Ukrainian law of (whatever century you are referring to) offer any protection?
Although this is a huge leap forward in coverage of the I/P conflict, I’m still appalled that a discussion of Israel has to be done with kids gloves in the manner that Zakaria has done so.
Furthermore his comment that:
The construction of the security barrier between Israel and the Palestinian West Bank has largely solved the day-to-day problem of terrorism for Israel.
Is largely incorrect.
Palestinians largely ended attacks on Israel of their own violation, the wall cuts through large sections of territory that are FAR from the green line, and Palestinians have no problem circumventing the wall when they want to.
Also not to mention this incredibly ignorant statement:
The Palestinians in the West Bank have extremely good leadership, with President Mahmoud Abbas committed to a peaceful path to a two-state solution and Prime Minister Salam Fayyad committed to a competent, clean, and effective Palestinian government that focuses on economic growth, not violence. Yes, there are problems—Hamas being the central one—but compared with any previous point in their history, the Palestinians are being led wisely.
What a crock of shit.
Furthermore, Zakaria seems to be blaming the problem on Netanyahu’s actions rather than on Israeli policy as a whole.
What a crock of shit.
Zakaria is either a liar or a shill. Either way the statement made by Zakaria, which you cited in your post, is simply inaccurate. A crock of shit indeed.
1. The Abbas “government” is ruling over the Palestinians without a mandate. They were supposed to step down back on 2006, and certainly last year.
2. The current Abbas “government” is corrupt and rules with an iron fist. It is merely an Arabic speaking Israeli occupation. Innocent civilians are still getting tortured and beaten by Abbas’ own goons, no different than the Israel army goons. It’s as if the landlord installed a gang to do his dirty work and the US government is more than willing to support such leadership. (Then, of course, the US turns around and pretends to be oblivious as to “why they hate us”).
3. There is no such thing as economic growth under the current leadership. In fact, given the corruption of the PA, the Israeli roadblocks that choke every breathing moment of Palestinian existence, the apartheid wall, the kidnappings, nightly raids, and use of live ammunition on unarmed, non-violent civilians have done EVERYTHING any regime can to destroy all economic growth.
Zakaria should put a sock in it and keep his pie hole shut. I’ll be more than happy to say that to his face and explain to him in great detail why he’s an idiot.
Avi,
The IMF would beg to differ concerning the economic growth in the WB.
link to reuters.com
(7% economic growth)
Fatah is more trustworthy amongst the Palestinians. Also Hamas won’t allow(or will boycott) elections, why are you talking about Abbas stepping down?
link to nytimes.com
(a Palestinian news agency, found that Fatah was seen as far more trustworthy than Hamas — 35 percent versus 19 percent)
Talking to you is like talking to a mentally handicapped dog.
First off, the NYT article was written by Ethan Bronner. You should know better.
Second, regarding the bit about the IMF, you again exhibit your lack of basic ability in reading comrehension and analytical thinking.
It states that “West Bank economy on course for growth: IMF”
Do you know what “On course” means? Google it if you don’t.
Then, there’s this gem at the bottom of the article:
“Continuation of fiscal retrenchment, combined with lower projected emergency spending for Gaza, will result in a substantial reduction in the recurrent (Palestinian Authority) budget deficit from $1.5 billion in 2009 to $1.2 billion in 2010,” he wrote..
Meaning that the growth that which the headline is referring to, is simply a reduction in the deficit and even that still hinges on reduced emergency spending, which is nowhere in sight given the siege and occupation. Did you get that, or do I have to repeat it again?
Fatah is more trustworthy amongst the Palestinians.
source?
never mind. i see it was the jerusalem Media and Communications Center. color me sceptical.
why are you talking about Abbas stepping down?
Because his term under the unity government has long expired and he canceled the elections.
Can’t you google these things on your own? Do I have to spoon feed you everything?
Annie,
read the article, it was a poll taken by the Jerusalem Media and Communications Center.
Avi,
Bronner made up all of these numbers? Even though they are from a Reuters article? Does Bronner work for Reuters now? Is the
Also it was 7% growth for 2009,
link to mediaglobal.org
The economy is still stifled because of the occupation, but saying there wasn’t growth is a complete lie, something you are very accustomed to.
I wish I had the same audience you did, where I could spout lies repeatedly and just have my audience lap it up. Second thought maybe not, what fun is it preaching to a bunch of robots, opposing them is much more gratifying.
So who will replace him if Hamas won’t allow elections? How do you hold elections when your people are split between to geographic areas and between two parties?
link to english.sina.com
link to jta.org
Thanks for the ad hominem too, it seems like no one on this site, minus maybe Shmuel and Annie can respond to me w/ out being a complete fucking asshole about it.
Israel Hater Handbook #5 Blame the media outlet for falsifying the information.
Sure sure.
You’re of the opinion that as long as Israel invented the cherry tomato, then everything else is just rosy.
Why don’t you pick your nose and see if you can find your brain in there?
Israel Hater Handbook #5 Blame the media outlet for falsifying the information.
Are you an Israeli citizen? Just because you’re Jewish doesn’t give you jack squat, certainly not the privilege to run your Jora.
If you love Israel so much, why are you not there? How come you’re sitting on your brain in North America, instead.
I am not in Israel because of the occupation Avi, how many times do I have to say it on here.
Israel has enough self-made problems which I think are horrible and I vehemently oppose, this doesn’t mean I can’t defend them from people who perpetually lie about the situation on the ground.
Thanks for the ad hominem too, it seems like no one on this site, minus maybe Shmuel and Annie can respond to me w/ out being a complete fucking asshole about it.
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt over few weeks or so, I responded to your posts without a single name calling, then your mouth opened up like a crater. So, it seems that you confuse politeness for weakness and you are merely looking to score points with your righteous indignation. Get a grip and quit whining.
Where you born there?
Israel has enough self-made problems which I think are horrible and I vehemently oppose, this doesn’t mean I can’t defend them from people who perpetually lie about the situation on the ground.
Aha. Sure.
Keep hallucinating.
OK, I have more productive things I need to do. My dog needs to go out to poop.
I’ll be back later. Try to get sober by the time I’m back, OK?
Avi,
good luck w/ that man, i haven’t been sober for months.
They managed to hold elections previously, when Abbas was elected president and when Hamas won the parliamentary seats.
They were, at the time, split between two geographical areas.
The geographic regions isn’t the big deal potsherd, but it makes it all the more difficult because they are split between two different factions (not counting IJ, PFLP, the new Al Qaeda inspired outfit, etc. etc)
Israel is split among numerous factions, yet they manage to hold elections.
good point potsherd, but none of those factions are boycotting the elections.
Hamas did not boycott the last elections and they probably wouldn’t boycott the next elections if they could believe they would be fair and the results honored.
But they have learned that they won’t be.
Abbas’s goons are probably more disciplined and better behaved than the IDF rabble because they have been trained for a specific job by Gen Dayton and Jordanian proxies. (God forbid they would ever be trained by American troops or contactors). The IDF rabble in the West Bank are simply that; the lowest of the low, with no such thing as training in community relations whatsoever.
Israel cannot operate without tortuous multi-party coalitions, in which you have to take in a few of the more horrendous extremists to form a government at all. Netanyahoo is probably the most moderate of his government. Mostly, with Hamas and Fatah, it is straightforward face-to-face competition. The result depends on who counts the votes.
Besides, Yonira, you have a conversion to see to (what you guys call “rolling your own”, or so I’ve heard) and then Jewish children to make.
Got a date for the wedding yet? How’s about the ETA on the conversion?
I can’t think of a better basis for a marriage than the abnegation of a woman’s religion and a pre-natal (hell, pre-marital) announcement of your children’s religious feelings. Have you signed them up for the IDF?
Please keep us up-to-date on the progress of this inspiring and romantic tale, yonira. You were so proud to mention it, your certainty of converting this girl and then producing “my Jewish children”, it’s only fair that you keep us informed. I’m sure we’re all pulling for you, just like the other end was around your… well anyway, be sure and let us know!
My God, yonira, you aren’t sleeping with that poor girl, are you? Without benefit of a Jewish marriage ceremony and conversion, not in that order, of course?
No, I’m sure your relationship is chaste and pure, as befits a Jewish man certain of his affianced’s conversion and his ability to produce Jewish children.
Please tell me you aren’t sleeping with her, yonira! I don’t need your non-existent morals sullying my reputation as a Jew! Besides, she isn’t Jewish yet!
Sorry if I’m being confusing, but Yonira announced on another thread he was converting his girlfriend to Judaism, and then marriage and producing “my Jewish children” ! Such nachis I got from that! Made me feel like a hot corn chip slathered with melted cheese, for some reason.
Anyway, from such joy he simply can’t exclude his Mondoweiss friends! Mazel Tov yonira, and your intentions, and Mazel Tov in advance on the rest!
And please keep us informed, so I don’t have to ask you about it over and over, with a link to your comment.
I’ll have to stop using the, “so when did you stop beating your girlfriend,” rhetorical flourish around him then, because I do not actually want to makes sport of any actual abuse.
The aparthied wall has resulted in three undeniable realities:
1. Palestinians who WANT to cross over the wall, do so using ladders. On a daily basis, thousands of Palestinains cross the wall without being hindered by army thugs and yet no attack has taken place west of the Green Line for a few years now.
2. Apart from the Israeli land grab that the wall has faciliated, Israel uses the wall as a tool to punish the Palestinains and make their daily existance intolerable, case in point. make their daily existence intolerable.
3. While Israel continues to claim that the wall has put a stop to “terrorism”, despite the fact that the Palestinians have done so on their own volition (and have moved onto non-violent resistance), the colonial settler thugs continue to terrorize Palestinians on the same land those thugs stole from Palestinians.
Nails it? as they multiply…democracy becomes…more complex? Nothing a little genocide can’t simplify.
Plus, doesn’t the verb “multiply” have negative connotations?
What if it were used to describe Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn?
Are we talking about human beings here or bacteria?
What about haredim in Israel?
Is there a change in US policy via-a-vis Israel and I/P?
If so, it appears that the “news” that US policy is about to change hasn’t yet had full effect. Even a “party line” culture (as the lower levels of the US elite mechanism surely are) cannot all “get the message” at the same time, and some people will fight the message.
Of course, perhaps the idea that there is a change is not true. We should see this better in the next few days.
Those people will not wake up until their own interests are threatened.
The Palestinian doctor from a refugee camp in Jordan, who said to have been affected by the slaughter in Gaza, went on to blow himself up along with 8 CIA officers at a base in Afghanistan.
THAT event was the turning point when Petraeus and Mullen decided, “This ‘special relationship’ is doing us more damage than we can afford.”
Even Netanyahu isn’t so concerned about a third Intifada. As long as the average Israeli can sit, all smug, at a cafe in Tel-Aviv and rationalize the continued brutalization of both Palestinians and their basic rights, nothing will change.
BDS!
I don’t think that Zakaria has the analogy right for two reasons:
1. Jewish Israel is not universally rich by any stretch. The cost of living there is high, but for us that live in the cold north, the Mediterranean climate is a vacation.
2. The relationship of masters to serfs was of a legally compelled labor force. That isn’t the case in Israel or the West Bank, more of a modern class relationship. A more apt parallel would be of the treatment of undocumented workers in the US.
1. Jewish Israel is not universally rich by any stretch. The cost of living there is high, but for us that live in the cold north, the Mediterranean climate is a vacation.
You don’t know what you’re talking about. Period. The cost of living in Israel is far better than in the US. Vacation shmacation. You’re so out of touch it’s ridiculous. Food is a fraction of what it costs in the US, certainly fruits and vegetables. Clothing is about the same, and the goes for electronics. They even get free healthcare, which you certainly don’t have. The only downside is the price of gasoline which is double what it is in the US, but then again, public transportation over in Israel is far more developed than the US and most vehicles run on diesel (known as Solar in Israel) which costs half as much as gasoline.
2. The relationship of masters to serfs was of a legally compelled labor force. That isn’t the case in Israel or the West Bank, more of a modern class relationship. A more apt parallel would be of the treatment of undocumented workers in the US.
Shut up already. “Legally compelled” is your own bullshitism.
That isn’t the case in Israel or the West Bank, more of a modern class relationship
You’re delusional, you’re a liar and a fucking coward. Go fuck yourself.
Brilliant commentary.
Housing is very expensive in Israel. You know that well, unless you are a squatter. I don’t live in New York, but in rural New England. Compared to my home, Israel is expensive.
You have a very odd analysis to describe the class relations of undocumented Mexicans to American corporations as not exploited.
Your limited set of formulas for dissent is dogmatic. You judge first, shoot first, in the name of opposing shooting first.
Your limited set of formulas for dissent is dogmatic. You judge first, shoot first, in the name of opposing shooting first.
Unlike you, the first thing I do is asses the entire post based on the information it contains. You, however, have a knack for ignoring what doesn’t suit your interests.
Housing is very expensive in Israel. You know that well, unless you are a squatter.
Most Israelis, certainly outside Tel-Aviv own their own homes (they don’t rent) and they get very good government loans that are in line with their earnings; for example, while the monthly mortgage payment of a middle class family in the US, is close to 40% of their monthly earnings, in Israel that percentage drops down to 15%.
That squatter bit is utter bullshit you injected just to score a rhetorical point. It’s no better than an empty slogan.
You want brilliant commentary, go watch Fox news. I’m here telling it like it is, Mr. Hypocrite and you are retreating on your lies with every post I make, which speaks volumes.
As was mentioned earlier, the Serf analogy is incorrect.
And as was mentioned by Mhughes, the Helots under Spartan domination would be a more compelling analogy.
In polls taken, 44 percent of Israelis say they would be ready to leave isrel if they could find a better standard of living elsewhere. In other words, they are remaining in Israel because it is more affordable than Western countries.
You’re on a roll of integrity today Avi.
Try reading what is actually said, rather than what stimulates your irritation.
“but for us that live in the cold north”
When did you move to Israel, Witty? Or did you learn something like dis-corporating at that ashram? You know, you dissolve into thin air in New Jersey and assemble the component parts again in Tel Aviv.
And BTW, you really don’t want to talk about the housing situation in Israel. It would violate every civil-rights law on the books in America. You’ll leave it alone if you’re smart.
Undocumented workers in the US are illegal trepassers. Palestinians are not trepassers–how can they be trepassers since they lived in Palestine for many generations? The treatment of the Palestinians parallels colonial treatment of
the natives. The trespassers are the Israelis.
Israelis have imported thousands of third world workers to replace the Palestinians they banished from ‘Israel proper’, and treat them extremely badly. It is not altogether coincidence that the agricultural worker in a field next to an IDF base that was hit and killed by a rocket was a Thai.
There is significant outrage in Israel about the government (ie, Yishai again) planning to deport over a thousand children of foreign workers who were born in Israel and identify as Israelis. But who “threaten the Jewish character of the state.”
Much more sympathy for them than for Palestinians thrown out of their own homeland.
There is significant outrage in Israel about the government (ie, Yishai again) planning to deport over a thousand children of foreign workers who were born in Israel and identify as Israelis. But who “threaten the Jewish character of the state.”
Yes, the “Clean and Tidy” campaign they call it. Very aptly named. For once, the Israeli PR reflects the true intentions of its governmental policies.
Much more sympathy for them than for Palestinians thrown out of their own homeland.
Gideon Levy wrote an indispensable piece highlighting this Israeli hypocrisy, all the more apparent in the Israeli groups and prominent Zionists criticizing the occupation of and human rights violations in Tibet. Truly a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
Much more sympathy for them than for Palestinians thrown out of their own homeland.
And it should be pointed out, that not only is this stance of opposing the deportation sharply hypocritical, but it also nullifies any supposed concern that the Israelis are showing. This is, as is usual per the Israeli case, more a case of opposition to an act that simply can’t be put a positive PR spin on, a consideration which I have to contend weights in far more in Israeli decisions than what the Zionists and its critics have so far believed.
Richard, your “undocumented worker” analogy makes no more sense than Zakaria’s. I don’t even see the point of it, except maybe that “undocumented worker” status doesn’t sound quite as bad as serfdom and therefore Israel comes off sounding a little better.
But there is the same basic problem with both, and it lies in the difference between the intent to exploit and the intent to exterminate. Palestinians are by and large not exploited by Israel. In fact, Israel has deliberately expelled most Palestinians from its labor force (where they previously were exploited). Israel wants the land Palestinians live on, but it wants the people to basically disappear. (Whether that means killing them, coercing them into leaving, expelling them, or minimizing their presence through concentration camps.) To use an animal analogy, they are much more vermin than cattle to Israel.
And I’m not arguing here that one status is necessarily worse than the other, although there is some potential power in being exploited, which is not there for victims of “cleansing” or extermination.
Historically, a better analogy might be the American Indians (as opposed to the exploited African slaves) to the young United States. A difference there is that the United States was able to successfully exterminate and demographically overwhelm the natives, which does not seem to be a likely outcome in Palestine. Apartheid South Africa is another more fitting analogy. There was certainly also exploitation of Black labor in SA, but the government primarily sought to expel Blacks to the Bantustans, making possible a “White South Africa”. They likely would have been happy for Blacks to disappear if such an outcome was possible.
Undocumented worker has no rights, but is not legally a slave.
You didn’t get that?
Did you bother to read his post, Witty?
I believe Fareed Zakaria is even worse than Thomas Friedman; the latter is at least more honest about his biases. Zakaria’s disgusting analysis, just some elements of which:
pro- Iran paranoia, quips of Palestinian ‘rejectionism’—and of ‘multiplying’ as if talking about vermin, reiterating support for the pro-Apartheid Wall, cheerleading the PA’s ‘great leadership’, pro-Zionist fear about Israel’s ‘Jewish character’.
…may contain one or two sentences that seem critical of Israeli policies, but Zakaria can go to hell. If this is the ‘support’ we are looking for, we might as well take up another cause, like maybe Save The Buffoons.
Zakaria says Israel is a wealthy country today, including wealthier than some US states; he elaborates on this–read his article. So, why is the US economic basketcase still giving so much of its foreign aid to Israel?
Fareed Zakaria almost nails it . . . . Israel’s status as a democracy doesn’t “become more and more complex.” It becomes more and more a pure fiction.
People should check what Ariel Atias (Minister of Housing and Construction and behind the “fuck you” to Biden and Obama) has said. He advocates radical apartheid, not just separating Palestinians but also orthodox from non-orthodox Jews. Israel has descended into a state where — even if every Palestinian were expelled from the area west of the Jordan River (in the biggest case of ethnic cleansing since the Second World War) — Israeli Jews would soon be at war with one another.
Whatever moral sense lived in Israel has been crushed by successive waves of right-wing, religious fanaticism. Israel now depends on the Palestinians to play the role of collective enemy of the Jews (much, I am sad to say, as Jews played a comparable, though by no means identical, role in Nazi Germany). The United States, too, is headed this way with the right-wing and moderates depending on a vilified, demonized Islam — a monolithic, terrorist enemy — to galvanize public support for, or at least apathy toward, every growing state power.
Fanatics, having won whatever battle gave their petty existences meaning, must turn on each other, like a pack of half-starved wild dogs.
“He advocates radical apartheid, not just separating Palestinians but also orthodox from non-orthodox Jews.”
The administrative and legal basis for this is already in place, all it would take is a “go” order. And what is lacking in Israel is any legal basis (civil rights for individuals, not groups) which would prevent it. In Israel you are who your group is. Which is great for white Jews, not so good to terrible for everyone else.