The latest candidate for the Chutzpah of the Month award: Fern Oppenheim, in the Jerusalem Post, obviously an American Jew living in the States, cannot see the ironies when she writes: "When innocent Palestinian children watch their beloved Sesame Street-like TV characters brutally murdered by IDF soldiers [in Palestinian media], or spend time in summer camps and public squares named after suicide bombers, they are being carefully prepared to harbor lasting enmity and emulate perpetrators of terror."
Palestinian children do not have to watch TV to see their parents, relatives and friends "brutally murdered by IDF soldiers" and as for honoring terrorists, what is naming a town square compared to Israelis electing not one, but two men who proudly proclaimed themselves to be terrorists as their prime minister--the Irgun's Menachem Begin and the Stern Gang's Yitzhak Shamir, both of whom who were named as terrorists by the British government with rewards promised for their capture? That's leaving out Ariel Sharon, the butcher of Lebanon and before that Gaza who had more deaths of innocents on his hands than either Begin or Shamir and over whom the Israelis swooned, and elected him, as well.
Sorry, I can’t respond to this, but I’m too busy watching “The Diary of Anne Frank” on Masterpiece Theater on PBS.
Must remained brain-washed that ONLY Jews feel pain.
Jeffrey,
so are you denying these Hamas cartoons and camps outright or are you praising them? This is the exact same tactic EEE is getting ridiculed for, how is this different than the “make sure your own house is in order” argument?
Is this only a valid tactic when used by the Israel-Hater group? I tried this exact same argument in a previous thread and was instantly assaulted for it, now you will use it here and you will be applauded. It’s pretty sick…..
People made funny of Nazi Germany, yonira. What Hamas is doing vis-a-vis Israel is really no different.
Compare and contrast with Israeli contributions along that vein.
RE: “When innocent Palestinian children watch their beloved Sesame Street-like TV characters brutally murdered by IDF soldiers [in Palestinian media]…” – Fern Oppenheim
SEE: Israel, a New Decade, by Ran HaCohen, 04/10/10
(EXCERPT)…The deep racism of the Israeli psyche is on the rise. The 1990s, at least in hindsight, marked some liberalization of the public discourse; the first decade of this century crushed it, and now the mildly critical, left-liberal discourse hardly exists in the mainstream. No wonder the liberal left has just 3 seats out of 120 in the Knesset; all the other parties are various shades of right-wing, far right, or fascism (except the small outcast “Arab” parties). The racist mindset can be observed in the most trivial daily situations, like my elderly neighbor, when told I saw someone peeping at my window the other night, instinctively reacting with a single question: “Have you seen whether it was a Jew or an Arab?”
Ever more often, when I mention the Netherlands, I am told that all the Dutch were anti-Semitic and collaborated with the Nazis; my already ritualized reaction – that my grandparents and my mother owe their lives to Dutch Christians who risked their own lives to save them – is met with a shrug, expressing something like “don’t challenge my precious prejudice” or “don’t be so naïve, we all know everybody hates us.” And this is not just the case of Holland: from Sweden to Ethiopia, from Turkey to Argentina, no matter how Jewish-friendly (and Israel-friendly) a nation has been historically, Israelis are encouraged to view all non-Jews (”Goyim” is the pejorative term used uncritically by most Hebrew speakers) as inherently anti-Semitic and therefore anti-Israeli. Every criticism of Israel’s policy is automatically dismissed as yet another incarnation of an endemic, incurable hatred of Jews. Just like anti-communism was the national religion of the USA during the Cold War, the fanatic belief in an eternal world-wide anti-Semitic conspiracy is the true national cult of Israel. The voices portraying even President Obama as anti-Semitic are just one undertone in an ear-deafening choir of incitement against every dissenting voice, within or without.
The younger generation knows little else. How could it? As the Jerusalem Prof. Nurit Peled-Elhanan shows, Israeli schoolbooks – their text, maps, and pictures – are inherently racist, especially against Arabs; but whereas the racism was sophisticatedly disguised in the 1990s schoolbooks, in the last decade it’s overt and explicit. Arabs are consistently represented as primitive, threatening, and untrustworthy; the Palestinian narrative is either distorted and denied, or simply ignored. The Occupation, says Peled-Elhanan, is never mentioned, the Green Line does not exist; many Israelis no longer know what it means, let alone where it is….
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to original.antiwar.com
ALSO SEE – Netanyahu: World is gradually accepting Iran’s extermination calls – Haaretz, 04/11/10
(EXCERPT)…”The historic failure of free societies to confront the Nazi beast was that they did not face it in time,” Netanyahu said. “And today we are witness to the old hatred of Jews once again, fueled by extremist Islamic authorities, led by Iran and its satellites.”
“Iran’s leadership is racing to develop nuclear weapons and declares its intention to destroy Israel. The world is gradually accepting Iran’s exterminatory declarations regarding Israel and still we do not see the international determination required to stop the arming of Iran. But if we learned something from the Holocaust, it is that we cannot remain quiet or flinch in the face of evil.”
Earlier in the ceremony, President Shimon Peres said the world must not repeat its indifference at the face of new cries for the destruction of the Jewish people.
Peres went on to say that “Israel will never forget the two decrees which the Holocaust enforced.”
“The firm demand to sustain an independent Jewish state, one that holds its security in its own hands while at the same time tirelessly seeking peace as well as the demand to treat threats of annihilation, Holocaust denials, and terror mongering with the utmost severity.” …
ENTIRE ARTICLE – link to haaretz.com
P.S. Be afraid. Be very afraid!
Where have you been, Yonira? The Palestinians have been robbed of their homeland at gunpoint with the blessings of the so-called civilized world, have watched territories to which they were forced to flee subjected to further occupation and dispossession and murderous attack and in the case of Lebanon, bombardment from the air, land, and sea.
Add to that the daily humiliations to which three generations of Palestinians have been subjected by your sadistic lanzmen and there is no cartoon, no depiction of the Israeli enemy that I would consider over the line. Israel has made its bed and if it turns out to be one of nails, it has richly deserved it.
Next question?
“there is no cartoon, no depiction of the Israeli enemy that I would consider over the line.”
Did you really say that?
wow Jeffrey, it must be nice to be able sit thousands of miles from the conflict and be a cheerleader for the continuation of hatred, lets see if we can get some more kids (on both side) brainwashed with hatred?
Nice to see you don’t give a shit about a solution, or the Palestinians.
Next ludicrous answer?
Projection, yonira?
Yonira, get yourself over to pulsemedia.org and listen to Blankfort’s interview with George Kenney.
Doesn’t give a shit about the Palestinians? He was photographing them before you were born. He spent four months in the refugee camps on assignment, and that’s when Blankfort became politicized about the issue. What he saw became a horror to him.
Hey, Yonira. I’ve been to the West Bank. I’ve been to Gaza. And I’ve been to Lebanon where I had a chance to see the Israeli wehrmacht up close, even had one take a shot at me which creased my hair in Lebanon in ’83. I’ve seen how they treat Arab people whatever their nationality, thanks to the racism young Israelis imbibe with their mother’s milk to borrow a phrase from that old terrorist and would be collaborator with the Nazis, Yitzhak Shamir.
Palestinians will stop hating Israelis when the Israelis take their feet off their necks, pack their bags and, at the very least, get their collective tuchuses back behind the Green Line. If the Palestinians demand more than that, they’ll have my support for Israel has earned the contempt of all those who value justice.
All, instead of peace, generations now.
When will a gentile nation make up a list and collective tombstone for those of it that stuck up for the Jews? I guess all those white crosses in Europe displayed at the beginning of Saving Private Ryan don’t count at all? How about the US dead in Iraq and Afghanistan? No connection at all, right? They were all just dying for oil companies?
yonira
As a kid I used to like going to the movies to watch on panoramic screens those American “cowboy” movies. I used to be horrified watching the “savage” Indians unexpectedly storming the camps of those innocent, cute, civilised, god-fearing white settlers who were doing nothing but looking to live their lives in peace , protecting themselves and their families..And oh, the horror! Not only they kill with axes while screaming like beasts, they scalp their victims too!! …Needless to say that the first time I watched a movie where the Indian was portrayed as anything different, simply a dispossessed victim fending for his life and his land and opposing extermination came to me as a complete shock.To my young mind this could just not fit in..
Why am I telling you this? I don’t know. Work it out.
yonira the moron,
Blankfort is not ‘denying’ (you can only think of challenging people, through the ‘denying’ formulae right? you narrow-minded freak – i bet you just want to call him a Holocaust denier, dont you?) ANYTHING.
He is pointing out the obvious sanctimony in the authors article. The author is implying the main reason for animosity towards Israel is because of a cartoon? SERIOUSLY? Not Israel’s actions? That doesn’t mean these cartoons are innocent – they are horrendous.
Furthermore, WHY for the love of God do Palestinians need cartoons to internalize hatred to the Occupier? Their oppressor?
It’s like that Golda Meir quote about how peace will come when Palestinians learn to blah blah more than they hate Israel.
That same, pathological narcissism. Stop worshiping yourself yonira.
What the hell did you think was going to happen, when someone thought up creating a political entity ON TOP OF an indigenous population? Moron. All you do is ‘point-score’. Straight out of the World Union of Jewish Students, Hasbara Handbook.
Get a life, loser.
you are an angry person Cliff.
how is med school?
Keep on wearing your idiocy on your sleeve, yonira. Dance, monkey, dance!
How’s your Meds Yoni?
I recall Jon Stewart making fun of Palestinian cartoons. Its strange that he remains silent on Israeli, ehem, entertainment, though. If I was a cynic, I would think that Mr. Leibowitz had a dog in this fight….
Any chance you can link any YouTubes to examples of such Israeli entertainment? We have plenty of people who link to those notorious Palestinian cartoons. Maybe its time for people to see what you are referring to, as well.
I know they are probably pretty nasty, or at least I expect as much, but I think people need to see this with open eyes.
Shamir, Begin and Sharon are the most notorious and clearcut cases of terrorist Israeli PM’s, but who really is exempt? Bibi, Rabin, Peres, Olmert, Barak, Meir, Eshkol, and Ben-Gurion (anyone else?) all OK’d multiple operations targeting civilians for death.
Also, Israeli children are taught to treat Palestinians as inferiors and interlopers, and trained to order Palestinians at gunpoint and shoot them if necessary. Blaming Palestinian “incitement” is not only grossly hypocritical, it diminishes the obvious impact of Israel’s brutal occupation on its subjects. In effect, they say: “They hate us because they are taught from infancy to hate Jews, not because we have been running and ruining their lives.” It’s nauseating.
David,
Please enlighten me, what was the reason for the Hebron Massacre of 1929?
link to en.wikipedia.org
The Jews were running Hebron? The Jews in Hebron were teaching their kids to hate Arabs? What was the reason for the Arabs murdering and ethnically cleansing the Jews that lived there for hundreds of years? What do you think, could incitement have been the cause?
So sixty-seven Jews are an ethnic cleansing, but 750,000 Palestinians isn’t?
100% of the population is ethnic cleansing, a couple hundred Jews in the West Bank remaining between 48 and 67, after 3000 years of residence.
That is ethnic cleansing.
You can still acknowledge that and object to Israeli actions. You don’t need to go to “everything my side does is good”.
And yet again, you’ve proven yourself to be a Nakba denier. It’s always ethnic cleansing when you’re talking about Jews and Jews alone and it’s never ethnic cleansing when you’re talking about what Zionist militants did to Palestine.
ENGLISH DUDE can you read it. I acknowledge they were both ethnic cleansing, and I think that is what Witty was eluding too. can you acknowledge that?
From the article:
“67 Jews were killed and Jewish homes and synagogues were ransacked; Nineteen local Arab families saved 435 Jews by hiding them in their houses even under their own life risk”
That’s an ethnic cleansing, huh? How many Jews helped protect Arabs during the Nakba? Arabs protected at least 65% of the Jews in Hebron during the massacre. Conversely, at least half of the non-Jewish Palestinian natives — both within the declared partition of Israel, and the areas that Israel cleansed by force of arms — were attacked and driven away.
And that’s not even taking into account that we’re talking about one incident that is three orders of magnitude greater than the other.
And Witty has repeatedly insisted that 750,000 Palestinians “just left.”
That’s bullshit. Ethnic cleansing is not defined by an absolute 100%. Cite sources or shut the hell up Dick Witty.
Please answer Chaos’s comment, Witty and yonira. Thanks!
How many Jews remained in Hebron after the massacre? How many Jews remained in the West Bank after 1948? (A few dozen in East Jerusalem maybe).
100% removal (excuse me 99.8% removal) is ethnic cleansing. It may be true that 70% combination of removal and/or voluntary emigration, is also ethnic cleansing, but to ignore the wrong of the ethic cleansing of the West Bank Jews is just to ignore the wrong (or maybe to rationalize it).
Your recurring theme is “only Israel harms”, which is false. And, that aggression has historically been mutual, requires mediation to result in peace/justice, NOT agitation and resistance.
Conflict, not oppression.
“How many Jews remained in Hebron after the massacre? How many Jews remained in the West Bank after 1948? (A few dozen in East Jerusalem maybe).”
Thus continues Witty’s pathological inability to produce sources to support hid claims. For Witty, it’s ghecargumrnt that counts. Facts get in the way.
Consider the source: wikipedia. The only thing you can trust wikipedia for is the birth and death years of the characters.
Meh. I take Wikipedia with a grain of salt, myself, but it’s useful enough and considering it’s possible to poke holes in the argument even with the referenced article alone — because of course, he cherry-picked from it — it wasn’t worth debating.
Plus, technically, attacking wikipedia, rightly or wrongly, in a blanket fashion is tantamount to ad hominem. :) To be fair, one would have to challenge specific errors or non-factual information presented.
eee, what is your point? That there have been incidents of Arab “incitement” in the past? That the Arabs are genetically predisposed to incitement? The Hebron massacre was indefensible, but also was clearly a result of Zionist claims to Palestinian land for a Jewish State. The Palestinians had every reason to fear this movement to take away their land. While that of course does not excuse the massacre, “incitement” does not explain how some Palestinians shielded more than 400 Jews from harm, even at risk to their own lives, as mentioned in the wiki article.
And what about all of the Jewish/Israeli massacres of Arab civilians since then? The Qibya massacre of 1953, spearheaded by the loathesome Sharon, had a very similar death toll to the Hebron massacre. And that’s just one of many massacres, and not the worst by any means. The number of Arab civilian victims since 1929 dwarfs the number of Israeli Jewish victims by an enormous margin.
More importantly, this 80-year-old incident has nothing to do with the present situation. It has no bearing on the issues raised in this piece.
David,
Incitement against Israel continues to this day and also on this site. Take the blinders from your eyes.
“Incitement against Israel continues to this day and also on this site. Take the blinders from your eyes.”
eee
——————
You’d like us to lay down and accept to be slaughtered like sheep? Not going to happen, ethnic cleanser!
eee
If you read what you posted you’d know that the Jabotinsky youth were up to something..Nothing occurs in a vacuum, you unprincipled unscrupulous liar!
From your own link.
“On 15 August 1929, several hundred members of Joseph Klausner’s Committee for the Western Wall, among them members of Vladimir Jabotinsky’s Revisionist Zionism movement Betar youth organisation, under the leadership of Jeremiah Halpern, assembled at the Western Wall in Jerusalem shouting “the Wall is ours”.[6] They raised the Jewish national flag and sang the ballad of yearning for freedom and self-determination, “Hatikvah” (“The Hope”), which is the Israeli national anthem. The authorities had been notified of the march in advance and provided a heavy police escort in a bid to prevent any incidents. Rumours spread that the youths had attacked local residents and had cursed the name of Muhammad.”
This took place at a time when the Palestinians became every day more aware of what was in store for them, the taking over of their lands. The way you put it is that Arabs just hate the Jews, they have no reasons to be angry about anything whatsoever.
68 massacres of Palestinians were reportored so far, since the beginning of the conflict…Deir Yasin and Kafr Qasem were NOT the worst by any means. Every attack on a village ended in a massacre. Even Benny Morris an uber Zionist if there was one, admitted to 24 massacres in 1948 alone!
-According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?
Benny Morris:”Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field – they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village – she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.
link to palestineremembered.com
Morris: “The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.
“That can’t be chance. It’s a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres.”
link to palestineremembered.com
3 or4 days ago Mr. eee claimed that all land within Israel was bought and not stolen. Tha’s how much the gentleman KNOWS about the conflict..Israeli textbooks as official history, you can hardly do any better to whitewash and rinse….
That’s always been the official Jewish narrative of the Jews in the world. Anti-semitism is always, fundamentally, a Gentile mental affliction. I’m surprized its not in the DSM manuel. Maybe there’s a pill the Gentiles can take?
As best as I can tell from various sources, the massacre had its origin in fear and resentment towards the Zionists. Hebron was a reaction to the violence that erupted in Jerusalem a few days prior to it, which was created by tensions between the indigenous non-Jewish population and the newly arrived Zionists, and reached a deadly boiling point after a Zionist demonstration at the Wailing Wall which included the raising of the Zionist flag. Both Arabs and Jews were killed in nearly equal measure in the few days of violence that consumed Jerusalem, but hasbarists won’t mention that because it doesn’t fit the narrative of poor innocent Jews slaughtered by Arabs, since both sides engaged in horrendous acts there.
According to all accounts, the massacre in Hebron was mostly instigated by those living outside of Hebron, apparently on having heard rumors of Jews killing Arabs in Jerusalem. (Which were true, but Arabs were likewise killing Jews as well at the same time.) Over a third of the dead were yeshiva students from a Lithuanian yeshiva set up in Palestine in 1924. The majority of dead were Ashkenazi (European Jews), but there were a few Sephardic Jews killed as well. Most of the Jews of Hebron survived by seeking shelter with Arab friends and their families. Most of the 400 or so Jews left immediately after the massacre, but many had returned by 1930. The British were the ones who ordered all Jews out of Hebron in 1936, claiming that they could not protect them in Hebron during the Arab Revolt that started in that year. One Jew remained, unmolested, until he decided to leave in 1947 in the wake of the Partition Plan which alloted Hebron to the Arab State.
As far as I have read, there were no bans on Jews remaining in the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli citizens were not allowed, but there were no restrictions on Jews, per se, living there, as there were for Palestinians living in what became Israel. I don’t think you can call what happened to the Jews in Hebron ethnic cleansing. It was a murderous riot but it was not ethnic cleansing.
In any case, in the early ’90s, Hebron’s mayor issued a formal invitation to the descendants of Hebron’s Jews to reclaim any property they lost and live freely in Hebron. Israel has so far stubbornly refused to take the same simple step.
I still find it rather surprising that so many Israelis can be so un-empathetic (or is it narcissistic?) that they can’t understand why the indigenous population would be antagonistic towards foreigners who declare that they want to rule the country as a Jewish state when most of its inhabitants weren’t Jews. Its really a simple concept to understand, and yet it seem beyond most Israelis and even many American Jews ability to grasp.
Tree,
The indigenous population declined to share the land and accept the UN compromise and then attempted to throw us into the sea with the help of all the other Arab countries. Then, they failed to create a state for themselves between 48 and 67 when there was not one Israeli in the West Bank or Gaza. And I can go on. If you gamble on war, make sure you can win it. Don’t whine if you lose.
Why should they have to share the land with foreigners? Especially with foreigners who state that they want to set up a government that privileges those foreigners over them: in other words, the foreigners didn’t want to share, they wanted it all. The early Zionists set up restrictive covenants on the little land they did manage to purchase, making it illegal to ever sell it to a non-Jew, or even to let a non-Jew work on the land. Why should anyone expect the Palestinians to welcome their own dispossession? How can you so squelch the human ability to relate to conditions of others that you can be so smugly ignorant and un-acknowledging of their predicament. If I invite myself into your house and tell you I want to share it, you are under no obligation to do so, and you certainly don’t deserve to be banished from your home because I’ve decided that you weren’t sufficiently welcoming and I’d rather have your house all to myself.
The Zionists didn’t accept the gift of the Partition Plan. They wanted more and terrorized the Palestinians and the British in order to get their way. I’m well aware that you can go on and on with Israeli excuses, myths and hasbara. You’ve shown yourself to be a very pedestrian and predictable thinker on this.
Again, the question I would like answered is what makes so many Israelis so incapable of having any empathy for the other, while constantly demand great empathy from everyone else. I’m well aware that you are incapable of providing an answer to that question, as you are just another victim of your country’s propaganda and fear-mongering.
“The indigenous population declined to share the land and accept the UN compromise and then attempted to throw us into the sea with the help of all the other Arab countries. ”
False. Israel rejected the partition also as is evidenced by the fact that they immediately violated it. Ben Gurion stated that the partition would not force Israel to renounce it’s claims to Trnsjordan. Menachem Begin described the partition plan as illegal.
Of course, no poparion in the world would willingly give up 50% oftheir land and give it to a population that only owned 7% of it. Israel won’t even give up the occupied territories.
Chaos,Here are but a few examples
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
Olive,
so these are played on Israeli state run television? talk about a huge misrepresentation.
Kindly link the post where olive claimed Israel even had state-run entertainment television, let alone that these were found there.
Is that supposed to make this any better, incidentally, if Israel allowed this stuff to be broadcast on corporate channels?
basically she showed you an anti-muslim cartoon. how is that similar to a cartoon on state run TV?
Just for the record, I’m a “he”.
Do you deny that either piece was on Israeli television, yonira?
Oh lord. Sorry olive! So you understand the nature of the mix-up, “Olive” traditionally functions as a feminine name as well as a generic word in the English lexicon. :)
yonira, the Hamas cartoons are disgusting. The point is NOT that Israel is ‘unique’ and the Hamas cartoons are benign – it’s that the author of the JPost article chalks up the hate due to these stupid cartoons. Which couldn’t be further from the truth.
They have an effect, but the reality of the occupation is OBVIOUSLY infinitely more influential.
Why would ANYONE like Jews if, a member of the IDF – an army of the JEWISH State – was pushing you around every day, treating you like an animal. Protecting settlers who you KNOW are blatantly stealing your land, your resources, and getting away with crime after crime – all in your face?
You’ve started a diversion yet again by avoiding the POINT of this thread. Like usual. You do nothing, while Israel entrenches itself in the OT. Yet, you profess to ‘fight’ against 1-State. Then fight your own pariah, apartheid State.
It’s funny, how you hate the Palestinians so much when they have NO POWER. They die, are stomped on, pushed around – and NORMAL (non-ethnocentric, racist freaks like Richard Witty) people end up sympathizing with them because they are NORMAL people. It’s not like the Palestinians have this magnificent army. That’s your side. And here you are still WHINING about the conflict as if it does anything.
How about this, just go full-Likud (full-retard). Ok? Get it done with, and just totally embrace the settlements. Hell, go become a settler yourself and start regurgitating the Bible and the uniqueness of a Jewish life. Be UNIX/BSD.
Because, you’re a total failure as it stands now. Your issue seems to be with these trivial rhetorical misunderstands. What are you ‘fighting’ yonira? Nothing. You have no idea what you’re fighting. You want to hate Palestinians and the people who blemish your favorite country’s ‘history’ (bullshit mythology) – but it’s not them who are making the One-State solution a reality.
So how do you A) ‘support’ Israel blindly without B) seeming like an Arab-lover?
Quite a predicament for a total idiot, racist like yourself.
As far as town squares and leaders, I think that argument can’t be won in either direction. But as far as children’s television inculcating hatred, I think the Hamas television is disgusting. Certainly internet links or late night shows designed for adults are not in the same category.
Keep making excuses for Israeli hatred of Arabs, WJ.
Whats interesting, WJ, is that we can see some of this anti-Arab, Anti-Muslim, even anti-Jesus propoganda being internalized by the Jewish population in Israel:
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
link to youtube.com
Wondering Jew, when a Palestinian child watches his father forced to get down on his knees and bark like a dog to please some teenage monster* in an Israel army uniform, he doesn’t need to watch children’s television to hate that Israeli and everything he represents. I can just imagine that child and others like him saying to themselves, “Never again!” or is that slogan reserved for the perpetrators?
*a product of traditional zionist family upbringing.
True,
And similarly, when an Israeli child watches on national television the search for body parts from a school bus explosion, that is quite imprinting as well.
It is a brutality to promote the inhumanity of the other. There is NO justification based on what the other does to you or your family or friend.
And, much worse than that, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for a non-involved “journalist” to promote or rationalize the promotion of hatred directly or indirectly. Thats to you, Blankfurt.
Witty, do you not care that fifty Palestinians are killed for every Israeli? At minimum?
Before there were any school bus explosions (and how many were there?), the Palestinians had been subjected to massacres and forcibly removed from their homes and villages and many not once but twice. I do not justify or support the bombing of schools or school busses but perhaps you should address your message not to this blog but to your Israeli comrades who are past masters at taking revenge. It wasn’t a Palestinian who came up with the concept, “An eye for an eye.”
You certainly do apologize for school bus explosions, not directly, but functionally in your selective choice of justice, choosing the term fundamental oppression to fundamental conflict.
There were hundreds of terror incidents between 1995 and 2002 directed at school buses, buses, civilian bus stations (with many Palestinians killed), hotels, cafes, restaurants.
Don’t minimize the extent that such actions imprint into consciousness.
They were intentional, and intentionally timed to severely disrupt the reconciliation efforts that accompanied Oslo. That otherwise humanists like Ed Said condemned Oslo rather than sought to reform and mature it, is a gross gross tragedy. At least he was just using words, not nail bombs.
I state that Hamas elected likud, and stand by that. The two dance together, both fanatic (or containing fanatic wings), and both politically opportunist.
Many Palestinians are coming to sober up these days, preferring development and quiet to ideology. You are actively opposing that process, that development of Palestinian community.
If Palestine can develop then that disproves the assertion that Zionism prohibited Palestinian development. For agitants that is a necessary assumption, that it is impossible to reconcile, that it is a betrayal, an emasculation.
I’ve helped (almost saved) people and derived part my sense of manhood from that heroism. And, as those events are the exceptions in life, lifelong manhood (contrasted to childishness) is not constructed from heroism but from commitment, from responsibility, from working, from teaching, from lovingkindness.
Palestinians that derive their manhood from their commitment, their maturity, have a lot in common with those Israelis that do similarly, and they can sympathize. Those that derive their manhood from heroism, especially militancy, have nothing in common with their neighbor, ONLY divides.
There is NO current POSSIBILITY of co-existence then, maybe at some distant later, but not for a long time.
Unlike the United States, in Israel, there is no such thing as school buses, certainly not the nation-wide yellow school buses with which we are all familiar.
If the terminology is used to illicit shock and disgust at the targeted killing of children, then the author (in this case RW) is a failed propagandist.
The only vehicles that transport students in Israel, and they are extremely rare, are VANS and minibuses used to transport special needs students or colonial settlers from several colonies to a regional school.
Either way, these vans and minibuses are not for public use and the students who ride them know each other very well, as does the driver (given the small numbers in question), so the insinuation that a would-be bomber could board such a vehicle undetected is a complete fabrication.
The buses that were bombed during the late 1990s and the early 2000s, were all public buses used for public transportation. The suicide bombings didn’t start in the 1990s until the Oslo accords failed and the conditions in the occupied territories worsened. It was a shift in strategy on Hamas’ part.
That is the same shift in strategy that took place in 2005 when Hamas declared an end to suicide bombings.
“when an Israeli child watches on national television the search for body parts from a school bus explosion, that is quite imprinting as well.”
At least Israeli parents have the ability to turn their television off.
Palestinian parents have no such luxury. There is no turning off the Nakba. There is no turning off the military occupation or the attacks by the settlers. There is no turning off the siege of Gaza – though Hamas tried with the 2008 cease fire (which Israel broke) – and there is no erasing Israel’s Sharpeville, the Gaza Massacre.
link to bit.ly
Avi,
You are making up rationalizations. You are skeptical that Hamas terror occurred, or that there were examples of specifically directed at school children?
Or, you are skeptical that Hamas terror occurred timed to disrupt reconciliation?
There might be redeeming things about some that associate with Hamas, but their pattern of intentional suicide and other terror bombing (not all blowing up of buses occurred by suicide) was NOT their high point.
Conducted in the name of Islam, for “justice”.
It took 13 years for Hamas to conclude that suicide bombing made things worse, and you regard that as redeeming?
Yea, Dick Witty. Too bad for you your side kills far far far more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis.
And your side is a thieving racist State as well.
And the occupation continues 40+ years onward and Israel has only refined it’s tactics of stealing land, colonialism, lying, barbarism, eluding IHL, IL, UN resolutions, etc. etc.
No comparison whatsoever, once again, you phony.
“That otherwise humanists like Ed Said condemned Oslo rather than sought to reform and mature it, is a gross gross tragedy”
Note what Witty did here. In the midst of a post condemning Hamas suicide bombing attacks (and he’s right to condemn those, of course),he slips in Said’s criticism of Oslo while magnanimously granting that his criticism of Oslo wasn’t as bad as nail bombs. This is the great reconciler at work. Justified criticism of a position Witty promotes is almost as bad as suicide bombing, in his view.
Said, of course, could see that settlement activity continued under Oslo under Labor and Likud alike.
“It took 13 years for Hamas to conclude that suicide bombing made things worse, and you regard that as redeeming?”
I don’t think you’re in a position to condemn Hamas. You still have trouble condemning any Israeli atrocity you can’t pin on the Israeli right. I haven’t seen a clear condemnation of the massacres and ethnic cleansing conducted by Haganah in 1948 and you can’t bring yourself to condemn what happened in Gaza.
Said didn’t say, “I love that Oslo is occurring, there are some problems with it though that need reform”.
He said, “Oslo is smokescreen, reject it.”
If you are true to your word and true to your principles, your criticism of Hamas won’t and shouldn’t rest on whether I adopt the same judgement or language on Hagannah in 1948 (a generalization on your part, not specifics, and not in context).
Again, lets study some reputable text together on the questions, rather than generalize.
I met Ed Said twice. He was a warm and sympathetic man. I trusted him, until he conspicuously and periodically maliciously condemned Oslo, and by inference empowered ruthless militants.
He was angry, and had a right to be.
But, he dropped the ball.
Pointing out your propaganda hardly amounts to rationalizations. You know that, but you prefer to play it dumb.
Having said that, get over it already. Cry me a river, as they say in modern parlance.
Hamas arrests cell about to open fire on IDF
“your criticism of Hamas won’t and shouldn’t rest on whether I adopt the same judgement or language on Hagannah in 1948 (a generalization on your part, not specifics, and not in context).”
It doesn’t. I’ve always condemned Hamas terrorism–no one in his or her right mind would use your example as one to follow on moral consistency. As for Haganah, for all your supposed reading of reputable sources you have yet to realize that it was deeply involved in ethnic cleansing and massacres in 1948.
“Again, lets study some reputable text together on the questions, ”
There’s nothing stopping you from reading material on your own that would refute some of your illusions. In the abstract, reading a book with you makes me break out into hysterical laughter–you’ve not shown here you can honestly handle a paragraph of material that goes against what you wish to believe. In practice, don’t waste my time. And that word “reputable” suggests an escape clause anyway–the “reputable” people you’ve read seem to have made little impression. I shouldn’t blame the authors though, as maybe you read them the way you read people here–very selectively.
But since you want to study something, how about this blog I just found the other day–
link
Let’s see, Dick Witty, what planet to you live on when you suggest that the daily
experiences of Palestinian kids are equivalent to the daily experiences of Jewish Israeli kids? Do your own personal experiences mirror the daily experiences of a black in an urban center, or a “hillbilly” in a “white trash” trailer park?
Try turning of the rampant antisemitism:
link to memritv.org
Oh good God. You’re posting a MEMRI clip now? You do know we all know what MEMRI is, right? A front for Israeli propaganda founded by “former” Israeli intel agents, whose translations have been caught in distortions and even outright lies on a regular basis now?
You quote some of the dirty war-profiteering whores who helped build the lie for war in Iraq at us and expect us to take you seriously?
“It took 13 years for Hamas to conclude that suicide bombing made things worse, and you regard that as redeeming?”
Meanwhile, Israel has learned nothing after 40 years of occupation. In fact, Israeli terrorism has continued for 60 years with no end in sight.
”
Hamas arrests cell about to open fire on IDF”
Of course, Witty will continue to ignore such reports and demand that Hamas demonstrate that it is willing to renounce violence.
“Conducted in the name of Islam, for “justice”.”
Richard
——————
That does it for me Richard! Your understanding of the conflict is madly flawed it boggles the mind..How could you not factor in the simple fact that they were dispossessed slaughtered and ethnically cleansed? What could Islam be even considered a motive at all is beyond me!! You’re seriously a worry Richard!
Sure, Palestinian kids have all the time in the world to watch TV in their tents, running on the electricity and fuel they are deprived of
Yes, and the Jewish Israeli kids should be forgiven their lollygagging in their luxurious private swimming pools too–while their Palestinian neighborhood kids try to collect rain water to drink.
Jeffrey, you so right. My Latino friends are telling me what the effect of the really ugly anti-immigrationists have had on their kids. My friend told his 13-year-old son told him at the height of it that he could hardly wait until he could vote, and the same with all his school friends. These kids are American, born here, same with their parents, but they’re Latinos. They experienced prejudice for the first time because they were Latino in 2006-8 but were shamed to the core when it happened to their parents. They vowed revenge at the precinct.
Good for them. Frankly, I look forward to a United States where white people aren’t the sole controlling influence. Because frankly, we’ve really screwed things up big time.
Me too, Chaos. I like all colors, all nationalities, all religions in a room. That’s what made NYC so great for me, and what makes it such a great world city.
You think white people remain the “sole controlling influence?”
You should talk to Jerry Springer.
What exactly do you mean, Citizen? I did used to listen to his very poignant radio show on Air America. Nothing like that crappy TV show, incidentally.
I don’t need to watch any cartoons to be “taught hatred” . 62 of dispossession and ethnic cleansing were enough to do that. The Israelis did just fine providing me reasons..Forget the cartoons and see for yourself what a Gaza kid’s life look like and you’ll understand.
You think that because that’s what MEMRI, a partisan organisation, wants you to think – and be honest: that’s what you want to think also.
“.. the MEMRI transcript misrepresents the segment, by attributing a sentence said by Farfour, (“I’ll shoot”), to the child, and ignoring the child’s statement (“I’m going to draw a picture”).
Whitaker further criticized MEMRI’s translation. He and others commented that a statement uttered by the same child, (“We’re going to [or want to] resist”), had been given an unduly aggressive interpretation by MEMRI as (“We want to fight”). Also, where MEMRI translated the girl as saying the highly controversial remark (“We will annihilate the Jews”), Whitaker and others, including Arabic speakers used by CNN, insist that based on careful listening to the low quality video clip, the girl is variously interpreted as saying, “The Jews [will] shoot us” or “The Jews are killing us.” Other sources have also pointed out that MEMRI’s translation “I will commit martyrdom” should more accurately have been “I’ll become a martyr” – a passive statement rather than an active/aggressive threat.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Yep. Our US poltical leaders and MSM spokes people keep repeating that intentional mistranslation of the Iraninan president about Iran’s intention to “wipe Israel off the face of the earth.” All he said was, have hope, because the USSR regime eventually collapsed of its own negative weight, so Israel will do.
How about we all stop promoting hate and reaction, instead promoting reconciliation and mutual acceptance, ACTIVELY?
Thanks for the input, Neville Chamberlain.
You believe that blunt unfocused war on behalf of the oppressed, or insult on behalf of the oppressed results in more liberated world, a more peaceful world?
The key word that seems to have eluded your consideration, Witty, is justice. When Israel and its supporters like you, Yonira, WJ and the rest, use the term, “peace.” what you and they really mean is “pacification,” and no matter how many years the Israelis try to enforce it, there will be no peace until the Palestinians have justice.
“blunt unfocused war”
Nah, just focused on Israel. Egypt has a whole ‘lotta Abrams tanks and F-16′s. Time for the Egyptian army to put them to good use to liberate Gaza.
But who am I kidding. Mubarak is no more a Salahuddin than I am Harry Potter!
“Blunt unfocused war” is dropping cluster bombs across whole square miles of Lebanese countryside. It’s leveling whole residential districts in Beirut and Gaza. It’s opening fire on hospitals, ambulances and UN schools.
We aren’t the ones doing any of that, Witty.
and what is justice Jeffrey, no Jews in Palestine? Or is it a two state solution where Palestinians have their own state in the EJ and the OTs along w/a majority in Israel? Is justice only for the Palestinians really going to bring peace?
nor are ‘we’ Chaos. nor do we support it.
In your war of words, you were shooting first, analyzing later.
Those that you express solidarity for, were bombing civilians.
Peace is a much better goal.
Complete justice for the Palestinians is much more important than peace. This justice is more important to them than the well being of Palestinians.
If you believed that you would condemn Operation Cast Lead without reservation. You don’t.
How sick are you, yonira, that you seek to make safety and justice for Palestinians mutually exclusive?
what do you mean Chaos? why can’t both sides have safety and justice?
You’re the one claiming that the Palestinians must either choose justice, or safety.
To me, justice and peace are the same thing.
More intuition on your part, Blankfort. You know what I think, clearly and confidently, don’t you?
“pacification”.
You’d do well in New Hampshire “live free or die”.
Peace implies actual consent, not pacification, you word twisting opportunist. Perhaps you’ve never thought about the concept, just the rhetoric.
The interesting thing about peace, is that it is mutual, actual consent. In contrast, the term justice is promoted as “justice for us”, as you promote. “Justice for all” would necessarily include inquiry into Israeli needs, consciousness.
I so much wish that you actually meant “justice”, balance, consent, mutuality.
I just don’t hear it.
How come you never speak out against what the IDF is doing to pacify peaceful protests in the West Bank, Witty? How come your famously exacting condemnation of Palestinians fails you when it’s Israelis who are causing the violence?
Speaking of which, because it bears repeating whenever you trumpet in this fashion and turn a blind eye to Israeli actions:
Reigniting Violence: How do Cease-Fires End?</a?
Chaos, Israelis are there to stay, so complete justice and peace, in your eyes and in the eyes of many on this blog, are incompatible.
I think a two state solution would be justice and peace all wrapped in to one, perhaps not complete justice for the Palestinians, but still justice. It could lead to a stable middle east w/ unlimited possibilities.
Israelis are there to stay but Palestinians can always be run out on a rail if the “purity” of the “Jewish state” needs to maintained, huh?
What are you willing to permit Israel to do to the Palestinians, once they outnumber Jewish Israelis?
…once again, I mean? You know, like they did before 1948.
you are an idiot and impossible Chaos, ta ta
Richard, you’ve been giving these Richard Bach-style replies for about two years: “How about we all stop promoting hate and reaction, instead promoting reconciliation and mutual acceptance, ACTIVELY?”
Since neither you nor I have one iota of influence over Israel’s actions, how would you propose your ideas to Netanyahu, and what, specifically, would you have him do to effectuate your long-standing solution? Specifically, as in #1, #2, #3, etc.
Whoops, this part was my question to Witty (forgot the html close):
Since neither you nor I have one iota of influence over Israel’s actions, how would you propose your ideas to Netanyahu, and what, specifically, would you have him do to effectuate your long-standing solution? Specifically, as in #1, #2, #3, etc.
“The interesting thing about peace, is that it is mutual, actual consent”
Peace follows calm, and calm. Peace comes later. That’s why Israel broke the ceasfire in 2008, because a long ceasefire would have led to peace and peace is a threat to Israel’s strategic interests.
QED: Israel will never consent to peace and you know it.
“Peace is a much better goal. ”
It just happens to be a goal Israel reject.
The ‘Jews’ in the OT are illegal settlers, yonira. Stop framing EVERYTHING through your narcissistic ethnocentric world-view.
If a Jew invades my home, and drives me out into the reservation, and one day I return w/ the rule of law on my side – it’s not an ‘ethnic cleansing’ of Jews. It’s the enforcement of international law to remove illegal settlers, colonizers, THIEVES and return stolen property to the rightful owners.
The only tactic you have is emotional blackmail. Are you a representation of Jewishness, yonira? Are you a good ambassador for Jewishness? How about BSD/UNIX? Or eee? Those settlers? The IDF? etc.
Who is the ambassador for Jewishness? If we accept your premise of IDENTITY POLITICS – then must we LIKE you in the first place? Can we not be like BSD/UNIX and eee? Can we not arbitrarily just NOT accept the rule of law, and look out for our own ‘kind’ as it were?
Fuck you idiot.
More brilliant response.
Children of Palestinians that were born in Lebanon are Palestinian Lebanese. Children of Palestinians that were born in Jordan are Palestinian Jordanian. Children of Palestinians that were born in the US are Palestinian Americans.
Children of Jews that were born in Palestine are Jewish Palestinian (once Palestine becomes a state). Children of Jews that were born in Israel are Jewish Israelis.
Second and third generations have a different character than immediately after a war. Not refugees, not occupiers, not interlopers.
Residents.
Yonira, WJ, and their ilk do not think much of Kant, Jeffrey. They are MOTs to the core. If they are all Americans, then ipso facto they do not subscribe to American principles.
This expresses exactly what I, and other proponents of equality, aim for. An objective meeting in the middle. A real balance, a symmetrical equality of rights for Jews and Palestinians. A result that both sides can live with, where “consent” does not depend on a gun to the head.
Unfortunately your solution is a haggle over land, in which the result is shaped decisively by the balance of power (capacity for violence) between the two sides. That IS pacification, if it reduces violence at all. Palestinians would never consider forfeiting their rights (for most to live, work, and participate) in 80% of their homeland were it not for 60 years of crushing violence and dehumanizing oppression. Acceptance of a bantustan state depends on that violence, and that sense of powerlessness. Partition into parallel (but unequal) ethnocratic states is in no way a principled position, unless your principle is “conquest makes right”. It legitimizes conquest, exclusion, and discrimination.
The principles of democracy, human rights and equal rights for all demand something quite different from what you envision.
Unless you’re Jewish. Then, as far as Zionists are concerned, you have “refugee status” into perpetuity, until you make ailyah.
What a total hypocrite you are, Witty.
“You believe that blunt unfocused war on behalf of the oppressed, or insult on behalf of the oppressed results in more liberated world, a more peaceful world?”
As opposed to blunt focused war on behalf of the oppressor, or insult on behalf of the oppressor results in more liberated world, a more peaceful world?
What are your reasons for posting on MW?
That’s a question for RW ~ What are your reasons for posting on MW?
Similar to Phil, I have a preoccupation with Israel and Middle East issues. My goal is consented peace, based on the acknowledgement that the people’s are neighbors, and that each desire and deserve self-governance.
I believe that hearts and minds can be changed in the US and Israel, and urge that activists attempt to persuade and encourage the tone and behavior that makes reconciliation possible rather than impossible.
I post here and at Realistic Dove only, occassionally on Tikkun Olam.
I came to the site from hearing that Phil had gotten interested in Israel issues. We spent time together as teenagers, and was curious of his positions and approach. We come from very similar philosophical and actually intimate familial roots.
While Phil and others speak of the phenomena of “Progressive Except for Palestine”, I’ve observed a similar phenomena going the other way relative to Israel of “Accepting of self-governance except for Israel”, which I find repugnant.
Frankly, I want to see a viable self-governing Palestine emerge for the first time in history, so the two can explore and succeed at living as good neighbors.
Why do you post here?
“My goal is consented peace, based on the acknowledgement that the people’s are neighbors, and that each desire and deserve self-governance.”
So if there is no consent, (as many have stated is the case with Israel) you are happy with the status quo Witty? Ongoing violence is preferable in your eyes to imposed peace?
“I’ve observed a similar phenomena going the other way relative to Israel of “Accepting of self-governance except for Israel”, which I find repugnant.”
Because you analyze things in a carefully chosen vacuum–that self-governance you are talking about is self-governance of Jews with an Arab minority, something that is only possible in Israel because of ethnic cleansing in 1948. It is similar to what you do in discussing the Gaza War–carefully exclude Israel’s refusal to listen to Hamas and lift the blockade and then loftily proclaim them responsible for the war.
“I’ve observed a similar phenomena going the other way relative to Israel of “Accepting of self-governance except for Israel”, which I find repugnant.”
Gangs are self-governing. Dysfunctional families are self-governing. Feral dog packs are self-governing.
Nations become self-governing to the benefit of all their citizens by establishing the rules of justice for all, first, then honoring them through its social institutions. What Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank, areas outside of its national purview, has nothing to do with self-governance. It is unjust and harmful. Just as gangs, dysfunctional families, and feral dog packs become when they harm those outside their closed circles.
Israel has had self-governance for a long time, given the life span of an average human. Palestinians have been deprived of it for even more time. No suggested
plan in behalf the Palestinians equal to that current for Israeli Jews has been offered by anyone with any influence. Do you deny this? Please describe you concept of a viable, self-governing Palestine state. To what extent does it differ
from you concept of a viable, self-governing Israeli state? The Palestininians have been deprived of their own right to self-govern in a sovereign state for as long as you have lived Dick Witty. Yet you think your stance is morally balanced? Should we exchange the “special relationship” we have with Israel, including funding of Israel and using our UN Sec Council veto in behalf Israel, exchange that by giving it to the Palestinians instead of the Israeli Jews? If not, why not? If so, why so? Thanks in advance for your input. Don’t forget to address US long term interests in your response.
The Obama approach is the correct one, notwithstanding the incidents of distraction and insult.
Palestinians deserve to self-govern, and I am thankful that responsible Palestinians are pursuing the institution-building that makes that possible.
With the radical formula of demands but without preparation, it would either never come to be, or would result in centuries-long civil war.
“The Obama approach is the correct one, notwithstanding the incidents of distraction and insult.”
Correct, meaning the satus quo is maintained and Israel is allowed go continue getting away with murder.
So, you do support settlement expansion Witty? Or rather, you support people saying they don’t support it, then going on to fund it (with a side order of cluster bombs and white phosphorous) and protect it so it continues unabated?
“How about we all stop promoting hate and reaction, instead promoting reconciliation and mutual acceptance, ACTIVELY? ”
reconciliation comes AFTER political settlement, not before Witty. Like Jeffrey Blankfort said, you want pacification of th ePalestinians and immunity for Israel.
Another article whitewashing Arab incitement.
When Arab children are no longer taught to hate and kill there may be peace.
Until radical leftists and their supports have the same amount of empathy for Jews that they do for Arabs there will be no peace.
This treatment of children amounts to mass child abuse.
It would be wise for Jews to continue apace to massively build up Israel, especially in Jerusalem and Hebron to make a defensive shield against the masses that are being indoctrinated from a young age.
“Arab children [...] taught to hate and kill”
“radical leftists”
“massively build up Israel, especially in Jerusalem and Hebron”
“make a defensive [human?] shield against the masses”
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We’ve all heard this from Israelis before. Nobody’s buying what you’re selling.
Because you care more about abusing children if it kills more Jews.
I haven’t killed even a single Jew. No one in my immediate family has killed even a single Jew.
How many Palestinians have died by the hands of your Israeli family, BSDNow?
That’s a great question. Fog of war, hard to tell. Maybe hundreds, maybe thousands, maybe none? Or Maybe I’m not Israeli.
Point remains. You only care about transgressions done by Jews.
“Fog of war,” huh.
Well, you’ve lied about almost everything else about yourself, right down to feeling compelled to change your screen name.
Only a few Jews killed since 2000, that’s why, and some by friendly fire.
MRW- “Only a few Jews killed since 2000, that’s why and some by friendly fire.” Maybe your date is wrong. Otherwise you are very wrong.
Jeffrey Blankfort- When a Jew forces an Arab to get down and bark like a dog, he is very evil. But I don’t see that as justification for whitewashing Hamas children t.v.
The comparison: link to ifamericansknew.org
Then consider 6 million Israelis compared to 1.5 million Palestinians, and the numbers become every more one-sided.
When a Jew forces an Arab to get down and bark like a dog, he is very evil.
Wondering Jew do you think what he described is an isolated incident?
The actual source page. link to ifamericansknew.org
Or Maybe I’m not Israeli.
UNIX
————————
Sweden 1975..
UNIX
Closer and closer, huh? ..Why don’t you come clean Sweden1975?
UNIX …Did you honestly think that your reference to the Linux system(UNIX) would not give you away (to me at least)? Not to mention all the other silly stuff typical of your despicable racist character? Why keeping this charade going on? Why not come clean and say it as it is? Nothing to be scared of you know..I won’t tell anyone what you said about the German “beautiful race”, promise( ha ha). Or all the niceties you said about the oriental Jews on the Angry Arab..Come on sweden, come clean now..
Jewish Israeli kids grow up with no knowledge of the Nakba; they have no clue their Arab Israeli peers kids come from families that lived in the land for a long time before
the Jewish Israeli kids. That’s not proof in the pudding of Jewish indocrination?
Wondering Jew, tell me what Palestinian children see on TV that they haven’t seen much worse happen right in front of their eyes. And what are all these Israel firsters, like yourself, who pretend to be looking for peaceful solutions doing on this blog rather than taking your comments to some of the ultra right zionist blogs that infest cyberspace? That’s a question for you, Witty, Yonira and the rest. It’s rhetorical, of course. I know the answer.
Jeffrey Blankfort- I far prefer to argue against your type, but just out of curiosity, please name 3 ultra right zionist blogs that you’d like to see bedeviled.
please name 3 ultra right zionist blogs that you’d like to see bedeviled.
———————
link to samsonblinded.org
link to masada2000.org
And here is a collection of the most venomous of vipers all in one nest : Arutz Sheva blogs..
link to israelnationalnews.com
I stay away from sick sites.
Advocacy or even reluctant apology for terror on civilians is one of the sicker features of this one.
The way that Israeli consciousness will change relative to Palestinians is to humanize them. To be seen as people that are not threatening, not inducing fear.
Thats NOT what you present to the world Blankfurt. You inspire fear. You add fear to the world, mostly by your condemnatory tone.
The benefit of your sympathy, your experience of Palestinians’ actual lives is therefore void, inneffective, less than inneffective (counter-productive actually).
You confuse “backbone” and ruthless “truth” with communication.
“Advocacy or even reluctant apology for terror on civilians is one of the sicker features of this one.”
That does happen here sometimes. But the criticism is funny coming from you. Your defense of the Gaza War is apologetics for terror and I haven’t seen you come clean on what mainstream Zionists (not just Irgun) did in 1948. You don’t really condemn any Israeli or Zionist terror unless you can pin it on the far right.
At least you are calling it a war now.
If 100% of rockets fired at Israeli civilians is terror, war crime, and in the week prior to any Israeli military invasion Hamas escalated from firing at desert, to firing at Sderot, to firing at Ashdod, to firing at Ashkelon, to firing at Beersheba (just after the Israeli military action, before they hid), then I believe strongly that passively accepting that is equivalent to accepting walking into ovens (to abuse a metaphor).
The only question on Gaza that I can levy is of extent and deviations from rules of engagement, given that Hamas militia did hide, leaving primarily civilians exposed.
And, on Haganah actions, I don’t know what specific issues you are thinking of (that you presume to “know” and then generalize about). I do give latitude to Haganah in the face of actual war, led by those that actively described their goal as “to drive the Jews into the sea”.
What was defense, versus assertion, versus abuse? Lets pick a book to study together, ok?
“Lets pick a book to study together, ok?”
How long have you had to read Benny Morris’s interviews? They’ve been cited here repeatedly. The Zionist atrocities in 1948 were not limited to those by Irgun. And they occurred all through the war, and were intended to drive Palestinians out of their homes. So no, I have no desire to study a book with you because I see what you do with mere paragraphs at this blog and with links that people send. Try going to “Israleft” and reading their post on Gaza and what led to the massacre and we can discuss that. It makes me giggle, actually, the thought of studying a book with you. If I actually did it I’d be smashing my head into the wall on a daily basis, but if we restrict ourselves to just imagining what it would be like, it’s kind of funny.
The Gaza War was a massacre by Israel. I think massacre is more appropriate, but will use “war” since many wars are little more than massacres anyway. If Hamas had stood and fought, then the civilian casualties would have been far greater and you would have criticized them for that. The “hiding” meme of yours is just macho posturing, really–you’re taunting Hamas for not standing up and being slaughtered (along with any civilian in the vicinity).
And again you focus solely on Hamas actions, utterly ignoring as you always do the fundamental issue–that Israel never lifted the blockade and when Hamas asked for this they ignored it. That’s Israel for you–treat people like animals and when they do lash out, blame them for the violence. And you support them for doing it.
So which book do you want to study? Actually read through in some detail, gaining confirmation and context.
Your imagining what I “would have said”. Its a projection on your part.
The hiding theme is relative to the scope of the war that Israel prepared to fight, noting that Hamas repeated and repeated “if Israelis again return to Gazan soil, we will drive them from it. We will spill their blood.” So, Israel took that pronouncement seriously, and prepared to fight a bitter war, not a skirmish one.
Failing to note that warning, that intention on the part of Hamas, is to MISS the context, and only judge the very surface.
Have you looked at waves in the ocean? There are very very surface ones, some of which are very noisy, even though they have little force. Then there are deeper currents that show no gross movement, but are very forceful, deadly.
One of Israel’s failings is in not predicting Hamas’ response. They are skilled at such guerilla features. In this case, they chose to bait, harrass, and then hide, and then audaciously call that.
Hamas definitely had difficult choices, no question about that. But, as I’ve said a few dozen times, they let their hotheads control the discussion rather than their wise elders, their social service wings, which were reported to strongly support restraint rather than impatience and violence.
Jews are forgiven for what they do to the Palestinians because they were once sent to ovens by Europeans. And they are forgiven further because Haganah was actually involved in the face of actual war caused by Arabic intent to drive all Jews into the sea. See Mein Kampf, wherein it is disclosed that Germany
should not go along with the stab in the back, and that Jews proclaimed their right to drive Germany into a permanent servile people. Both Hitler’s Germany and Israel proclaimed and fostered Lebensraum. Obama is facing that Israeli proclamation now. “We just need room for natural growth.”
No answer on the book study proposal Donald?
Please make a suggestion. Put in the time, expose your and the author’s assumptions to inquiry, beyond mere repetition.
Bullshit, Witty. Half the time you flee the conversation when you’re cornered, and now you’re going to harp on Donald because he hasn’t turned around in a matter of hours and answered you on a book study proposal you have no intention of honoring?
Its an offer. He’s here frequently. He can say, “let me think about it”, or “I prefer not”.
Its an offer I also made to Ira Glunts a few times, but he refused to invest the time, or whatever reason he had.
I firmly believe that the antagonistic voice accomplishes less than nothing for Palestine in this case. It is just the reality of it, whether you want that to be or not.
To continue at it, and you do harm in words, is addictive on your and others’ parts.
I contest that an informative voice is the most important contribution to the dialog. Not a rant, but a film or a slideshow or candid dialog, that stands the reality test of criticism from multiple perspectives.
You don’t accomplish humanizing Palestinians in the eyes of Americans, Europeans, and Israelis by dehumanizing Israelis.
So, maybe your anger is stronger than your urge to help. I don’t know.
I’m not suggesting that you shut up. I’m suggesting that you find an effective way to communicate.
I think you overestimate how much people around here take you seriously. You, who hates the Palestinians so much that you are willing to back Israel when they drop bombs on hospitals, yet condemn Hamas as “blood thirsty” when they instigate far less violence than the Israelis.
Or alternatively, at the height of your idiocy, insisted that outspoken peace activist Ralph Nader would have been even more warlike than either Bush or Obama.
Donald alreadysugested you start with Benny Morris’ book. When you’re done with that, perhaps you can try the Goldstone Report Witty.
I just saw your post. Richard, what part of the following did you not understand?–
” So no, I have no desire to study a book with you because I see what you do with mere paragraphs at this blog and with links that people send. Try going to “Israleft” and reading their post on Gaza and what led to the massacre and we can discuss that. It makes me giggle, actually, the thought of studying a book with you. If I actually did it I’d be smashing my head into the wall on a daily basis, but if we restrict ourselves to just imagining what it would be like, it’s kind of funny.”
It means, no, Richard, I don’t want to study a book with you. I don’t want to study a book with anyone and if I did you’re somewhere on the list of the top three people I would not want to study a book with. You have amazed me for months (or perhaps longer, I’ve lost track) with your ability to miss points and to be unaware of things that anyone seriously interested in this subject would know about–the fact that Haganah committed massacres and ethnic cleansing being one example. Hell, you even managed to miss the point here, which is no, I don’t want to study a book with you. It’s further evidence that you’re trolling.
So, Richard, try reading that website I’ve linked to about the Gaza massacre. It’s at “Israleft”. The post is long, detailed and if you can handle that in anything remotely resembling an intellectually honest way that would impress me. I’m not holding my breath.
As for what you say here, I think there’s some truth in what you say about Hamas, but as usual it’s all in the service of completely dodging the discussion about Israel’s responsibility. This seems to motivate most of what you post about the Gaza massacre. There are such people as honest Zionists, people who one can have a real conversation with, who acknowledge points one makes and who don’t try to cover up Israel’s crimes while also pointing out that the Palestinians also bear some responsibility. You’re not one of them.
Let me expand on that last point, Richard. I have met liberal Zionists I respect–met them online, anyway, or in books that they’ve written. I’d listen to Uri Avneri (and his opposition to BDS) or to people like him any day of the week. I remember when I first came to this website seeing your peace talk thinking you might be someone of that sort. Well, you’re not.
I consider that cowardly Donald, a ploy likely, a protection of your rationalization, as much as you accuse me of protecting mine.
You paint Hagannah for example with prejudicial strokes, not willing to inquire further, in simplistic terms.
I don’t know if you read seriously the article that you asked me to. Bennie Morris exposed uncomfortable realities and suggestions to the Israeli public and the world. But, he also exposed uncomfortable realities about the Arab performance in that war.
For example, he described that Hagannah sometimes conducted what he evaluated as ethnic cleansing efforts in areas that they conquered and “overrun”. But, in the next line he stated that the Arab Legion conducted ethnic cleansing efforts in ALL of the Jewish areas that they conquered. He stated that the scale of that was less as they succeeded milita008rily less than the Hagannah.
It mirrors the assessment of war crimes relative to Gaza. 100% of Hamas’ shelling of civilians, their ONLY military action in 2008, was war crimes. In contrast, only a percentage (unidentified, and too high certainly) of IDF actions were excessive or war crimes.
And, that creates a setting of MUTUAL hostility, war, NOT oppression.
It still leaves Gazan civilians as victims, and still blockaded by Israel with very limited effort on their part to distinguish between Hamas (enemy) and civilians. But, it leaves Gazan civilians victims to Hamas largely, if not exclusively.
I am not Uri Avneri, but my points are not readily dismissable either. They contain content that is plausible, worthy of consideration.
You keep up the theme of condemn as litmus test, as a basis of whether to listen or dialogue earnestly.
Its a tragedy Donald. There is no winner in study. There are only losers in failure to. You get to make your points, your observations, share your understanding.
Not worth your time?
How much time do you spend here? How much time do you dedicate to responding, or rather castigating me?
Study.
It’s not a tragedy that I don’t want to waste my time with you and I don’t consider you honest, Richard. Yes, I’ve read Morris’s article, you twit. Even allowing for his racism, of course he’s right that the Arab side also committed atrocities. I think the Zionist side is the aggressor–they are the ones coming in with the arrogant notion that they have a right to form a Jewish state in an area where they were a minority. But both sides committed atrocities.
I’ve always said and thought that–well, once I found out that the Zionist side committed atrocities, something that was concealed from me and most Americans for many years. Funny how that happened, Richard, and funny that it was only when an Israeli (Morris) says it happened that the West admits it (though you still haven’t). It’s as if the word of Arabs or even non-Israeli Westerners simply didn’t matter.
The problem here is you–you’re a coward, to use your word, someone who can’t ever admit to the real seriousness of the crimes committed by mainstream Zionists without trying to portray the Arabs as worse and in the process, you say in a clear and forthright way that the Arabs committed ethnic cleansing (true) and STILL you don’t come out and admit that Haganah did it. Instead, you say Haganah did what Morris evaluated as ethnic cleansing. There have been no such qualifying weasel words when you discuss Arab crimes against humanity–these phrases only appear in connection with your precious Haganah and IDF. You do that in every discussion that arises on this subject. It’s despicable.
You don’t need me as a study partner. You need to grow up, at long last, and stop lying to yourself.
“Study”.
Same back at ya, your royal twitness. And while you’re at it, stop lying to yourself.
“It mirrors the assessment of war crimes relative to Gaza. 100% of Hamas’ shelling of civilians, their ONLY military action in 2008, was war crimes. In contrast, only a percentage (unidentified, and too high certainly) of IDF actions were excessive or war crimes.”
You have to be our of your mind Witty and displaying sure signs of a sociopath.
To use your analogy, a rape victim who fights back is guilty of assault because she failed dial 911 before resorting to physical means to fight off her assailant. Hamas didn’t have wepoans ca[pable fo targetting teh IDF militayr with accurace, so what you are sugegsting is that they should have simply allowed themslves to be slaughtered.
There is no report that states 100% of Hamas’ shelling was directed at civilians. None.
And the Goldstone report did not claim that only a percentage of war crimes were perpetrated by the IDF, only that it investigated the cases that were undeniable war crimes.
You are completely ignoring that:
a) Israel attacked Gaza in an act of aggression, which is the greatest of all war crimes.
b) Israel were blockading Gaza, which is an act of war
You are a truly sick individual Witty.
I just read your link. (It took a lot of searching to find by the way. If you really want me or others to read something, make it prominent, make it as a request not presented as a bait).
In reading it, I derived the following summary:
1. The setting for Hamas was desparate, that they needed the Gaza/Israel crossings to be opened further than Israel was allowing, and hence were willing to make reluctant but large compromises with their prior positions to do so.
2. That Israeli leaders bore hatred for Hamas and enacted a dual aimed objective, of which the overtly stated aim of stopping the rockets was likely a secondary aim.
3. That Hamas nearly completely fulfilled its obligations under the cease fire agreement (even though the two parties were never in the same room, and I don’t believe there was a confirming signed agreement in summary or detail, but verbal).
4. The November 4th incident occurred. It is still unclear of the actual events. It is unclear if Hamas was building a tunnel, or if they were for what purpose and consequence. It is unclear if the significance of the action by Israel was intended to break and destroy the cease-fire as many claim, or was merely a difficult military decision that went haywire.
5. The skirmishes. The resumption of Hamas shelling. The warnings.
The article describes that it suspects that Israel intended the cease-fire to fail ultimately, was patiently or impatiently waiting for an opportunity, a justification to teach Hamas a lesson, and/or remove them from power.
I agree that it was obvious, widely reported in the left press and here, that many within Israel and the IDF did reflect the summary, did desire war with Hamas.
Even with that fact setting, much of which is still not conclusive, there were two critical “continental divides”. November 4 and the responses by both parties. And after the formal cease-fire ended, again with responses by both parties.
My contention is that Hamas was NOT sufficiently committed to non-violence to follow through on its effort. The couple breaches by Hamas early occurred in response to events in the West Bank, though that was clearly NOT an area of agreement in the original ceasefire. Thankfully, they confirmed by actions that they preferred the cease-fire even if different than their original intent, to war.
I stated consistently in all discussions of Gaza, that I personally gave Hamas credit for keeping its part of the agreement, and periodically acknowledged that it seemed to do so more completely than Israel. (I’m sure you don’t remember that.)
Further, that I stated consistently that the commitment to non-violence would change hearts and minds if kept to, that the degree of trauma that they directly and intentionally caused in Israel would not melt easily, but would in time.
And, that if they restrained themselves, that that would be seen and Israel would have the scope to elect increasingly moderate leaders, that the theme of “we’ve got them on the run” (that both Israel and Hamas and Palestinian solidarity indulge in) would wither with the actual prospect of peace.
Hamas was not that committed. They chose instead to fight, then to shell.
The four weeks between the end of the cease-fire and the Israeli election was critical. They seemed to be more motivated by insults to their manly dignity than their manly intention.
I read it, digested it.
For reference, I have NEVER stated the theme “Israel is right all the time, by definition”. That is your and others self-talk.
I am glad that the Israeli liberal left presents alternative understandings so that different choices may be considered and applied. Israel needs reform.
I still add up the events to the conclusion of “tragedy” of mutual idiocies, created by histories of political opportunism, selective blinders on the part of each’s solidarity.
“My contention is that Hamas was NOT sufficiently committed to non-violence to follow through on its effort.”
Your contention is hypocritical because you only apply that standard to Hamas, and not Israel. Israel killed 6 Palestinians on November 4th, and yet you isnist that they should have sucked it up and not responded, yet when Hams responded with rockets that killed no Israelis civliansm, you assert they had no choice but to respond.
“Further, that I stated consistently that the commitment to non-violence would change hearts and minds if kept to, that the degree of trauma that they directly and intentionally caused in Israel would not melt easily, but would in time.”
You can assert that all you want, but it’s meaningless. As Tzipi Livni told us, a long ceasfrie was not in Isrlae’s strategic interests, so the longer Hamas held to teh ceasfire, the more determined Israel’s leaders were to break the ceasfire. Hence, restraining themselves would have produced nothing nut further attacks from Israel. Kadima were suffereing already in the polls and Olmert incited the war to resurrect Kadima’s flagging support.
In fact, it was estimated that IOlmert gained one seat foer every 40 Palestinian killed.
“Hamas was not that committed. They chose instead to fight, then to shell.”
Was Israel commited? No.
“The four weeks between the end of the cease-fire and the Israeli election was critical.”
No it wasn’t. Hamas proposed a return to the ceasfire immeditely and Israel rejected it. Israel had already decided ahead fo time that it was going to atatck Gaza, no matter what.
“I read it, digested it.”
No you read, then picked out the pieces that you believe support your pre-detemied thesis.
“For reference, I have NEVER stated the theme “Israel is right all the time, by definition”.”
You don’t need to Witty. Like the good little propagandist that you are, you do so by example
The amazing part about your summary Witty is that you accept that Israel were determined to go to war with Hamas, but don’t find any fault with Israel’s position. Your only criticism is directed at Hamas for not suffering in silence sufficiently or for ling enough to sway public opinion in Israel.
Again, it’s much like blaming the rape victim for not placating her assailant, and crticising her response for the violence that was inflicted on her. Your suggesting that a rape victim will be less harmed if she gives in and doesn’t resist.
You’re quite the sociopath.
“4. The November 4th incident occurred.”
This is another one of Witty’s favorite canards. Whether Hamas was building a tunnel or not, Israel killed 6 Palestinians. The tunnel was on the Gaza side of the border, and Israel’s allegations are completely bogus. if you believe Israel’s account, it was more practical to bomb a tunnel (and kill Palestinians) that they allege was about to be used to kidnap IDF soldiers, than set a trap or move the IDF soldiers from the area.
“It is unclear if the significance of the action by Israel was intended to break and destroy the cease-fire as many claim, or was merely a difficult military decision that went haywire.”
You see, according to Witty, it is unclear as to whether the murder of 6 Palestinians is significant.
Israel killed six after they were attacked from the Palestinian side.
1.) Israel ‘broke’ the cease fire/bombed the border/tunnel
2.) hamas responded w/ rockets, mortars, etc
3.) israel ordered and air strike killing the Hamas men,
Even Shingo’s point about Lipni stating “it is not in Israel’s interest for an extended cease-fire” is stated entirely out of context. She was not saying that Israel desires war with Hamas, but that Israel desires actual peace, not merely a temporary cease-fire in which Hamas arms up.
If Hamas were sincerely interested in peace, they would find a way to convey that. What is conveyed is that they are interested in resistance, in anger, and in reserving the right to resist by terror, of ruthlessness.
There is much to criticize of Israel’s behavior, but the “Hamas is innocent” theme is ludicrous and a great great danger to the soul, the character of anyone that adopts it.
There may be options to pursue, but to conclude that “Hamas has fundamentally changed” is ludicrous. To state in Gaza, “Hamas has accepted Israel’s right to exist”, could be dangerous for you.
Even as antagonistic as you are Shingo, I don’t desire to see you suffer. (Or maybe you know not to state that in the wrong circles, that you mean solidarity with militancy, and intentionally propagate.)
On the tunnel incident, I don’t know. You don’t know. Donald doesn’t know. To state that you know is to elevate your imagination, or those that you rely on for information to the level of authority (but that is how lies and worse BIG LIES are constructed, by imagination pretending to be knowledge.)
Its the reason for enlightenment skepticism. “I guessed wrong. My gambling caused others harm. I will be more circumspect next time.”
The important outcome of these discussions is change in behavior. It is not necessary to adopt the religious politically correct conclusion sequence to recommend and advocate for and persuade kind and responsible foreign policy.
That so much time is dedicated to conformity of interpretation, indicates to me that the proponents don’t care so much about the results.
Donald,
Study is an opportunity for you to identify and discuss specifics, facts and context.
At this point you are name-calling only.
For example, your comment:
“I’ve always said and thought that–well, once I found out that the Zionist side committed atrocities, something that was concealed from me and most Americans for many years. Funny how that happened, Richard, and funny that it was only when an Israeli (Morris) says it happened that the West admits it (though you still haven’t).”
“(though you still haven’t)” is false.
I stated that it likely occurred in specific instances, but the predispositions of many dissenters convinced them that it happened generally.
It takes STUDY to distinguish the generalization from the analysis. Generalization serves me to the extent to identify “Israel needs reform” but does not serve me sufficiently to determine what strategy, what effort is best, and it particularly disserves me to lie to myself in the generalization, “Hagannah was a murderous organization designed to ethnically cleanse the region of Palestinians”.
I’m not certain if that language characterizes your attitude exactly or not. Maybe you can clarify.
On the link, Witty, I provided the actual link twice in messages to you in the past day or so. You didn’t click on it then. Your choice–you’re not obligated to, but at the same time I’m not obligated to provide it over and over again. Googling “Israleft” isn’t terribly difficult and the Gaza article was the first one. I just tried it and it took me literally about 15 seconds to google Israleft, click on the first link, and there was the article right at the top.
“Further, that I stated consistently that the commitment to non-violence would change hearts and minds if kept to, that the degree of trauma that they directly and intentionally caused in Israel would not melt easily, but would in time.”
Yeah, I would sincerely like to see the Palestinians universally adopt Gandhian pacifism and then they can ask for one man, one vote. You probably don’t like that last part, but if the Palestinians really did adopt total pacifism then why not? I’d also like the Israelis to adopt the same position. In the real world there are going to be people who are not pacifists and some will be young hotheads and some (on both sides) might be a bit more cynical than that. You are doing what Shingo says–putting all the blame on the Palestinians. The Israelis, in your recounting, are the “traumatized” victims. One would think that the Israelis were the ones who had been been kept in an open air prison, and had suffered the greatest casualties. It was the US/Israeli side that encouraged a civil war, hoping to overthrow the legitimately elected government of Hamas. One would think that Hamas had enforced an apartheid-like regime on occupied Israelis. I grant that Israel has legitimate emotional scars from Hamas suicide bombing, but when one looks at the suffering involved, by any measure one cares to name, the Palestinians have taken far more from the Israelis than they have dished back in return. This is totally missing from your analysis. The Palestinians are required to be the nonviolent ones–in the meantime the Israelis continue to impose the blockade and inflict violence whenever they wish because the poor dears have suffered so much and need to be reassured of Palestinian sincerity before they can be persuaded to stop treating them like animals.
Try again, Richard. I’m probably a lot more open to the Israeli viewpoint than most Palestinians, I suspect. Pretend you are Uri Avnery or Akiva Eldar or even Shlomo Ben Ami (though Shmuel told me once he wasn’t quite as nice a person as I had thought) and really try to see things in a fairminded way.
And incidentally, I’ve never gotten too deeply into the whole November 4 and December shelling incidents and who struck first and who escalated and so on. It seems to me the fundamental issue is and has been the fact that Hamas kept the ceasefire for many months and Israel still didn’t lift the blockade and still hasn’t. And they don’t for the reasons Bronner has been good enough to report time and again–the Israelis want Gazans to suffer, to make Hamas look bad. That’s violence aimed at an entire population.
As for the importance of interpretation and intolerance, it’s because I’ve seen how dishonest interpretation by self-proclaimed liberal Zionist peace advocates has been used to justify violence against Palestinians that I’m so intolerant of it. It’s akin to antisemitic remarks which provide the atmosphere for antisemitic violence. There’s a constant drumbeat of lies told about the Palestinians by people like Friedman–there’s the lie that the second intifada was entirely Arafat’s fault for turning down the “generous offer”, there’s the lie that the Palestinians are just now turning to nonviolent resistance and that it is the PA bureaucrats that the US supports who lead the way (how convenient, when those peacelovers were involved in a civil war instigated by the US) and then there’s the lie that you embrace, which is that Israel had the moral right to respond with violence to Hamas, when they could have lifted the blockade they had no right to impose in the first place. These lies provide the justification for Israeli terror and they do more harm coming from self-professed peace advocates than they do when they come from rightwing zealots like the operating system who posts here. The best way to spread a lie is to have it come from the mouth of someone who is thought to be a liberal peace advocate. The crimes of Israel are soft-pedaled, the day-to-day cruelty and sadism goes unmentioned, and stress the trauma of Hamas suicide bombings while refusing to condemn Israeli war crimes-and it’s not just some ridiculous old guy on the internet doing these things–it’s the American congressmen and other officials and people in the MSM repeating this garbage. Innocent Palestinians die because of these dishonest interpretations, so yeah, some of us are intolerant of them.
“Even Shingo’s point about Lipni stating “it is not in Israel’s interest for an extended cease-fire” is stated entirely out of context. She was not saying that Israel desires war with Hamas, but that Israel desires actual peace, not merely a temporary cease-fire in which Hamas arms up.”
Your rationale fails completely, because it accepts the false premise that the only alternative to true peace is war. It also is extremely hypocritical, because it assumes that Hamas shoudl disarm, while accepting Israsel’s increased militarism.
“If Hamas were sincerely interested in peace, they would find a way to convey that. ”
But not Israel right. Hamas have to jump through hoops to convince Israel that is wants pace, but it’s perfectly OK with you that Israel reject such efforts. In fact, you’re so extyeme,. you’re even willing to criticise Hamas for not trying hard enough when Isrle do reject the overtured.
Hamas have imposed 3 uni,liateral cerasfiers, accepted a 2 state solution, given support to the Arab Peace initiative, arrested militants firing rockets.
Israel has rejected all opf these.
“What is conveyed is that they are interested in resistance, in anger, and in reserving the right to resist by terror, of ruthlessness.”
Yes, 1,400 slaughtered civilians does tend to make one angry, especially when a ceasefire was on offer.
“To state in Gaza, “Hamas has accepted Israel’s right to exist”, could be dangerous for you.”
And you base this on your vast experience of travellign to Gaza Witty, or are you simply pulling another ad hominem out of thin air?
“On the tunnel incident, I don’t know. You don’t know. Donald doesn’t know.”
Rubbish. We know that the story given by Israel doesn’t hold water, but as is always the case with you, when it comes to Israel’s crimes, you are only to willing to give Israel the benefit of the doubtm, while making dubious and baseless calims abotu what heppens to people in Gaza who say “Hamas has accepted Israel’s right to exist”.
You’re a pathological liar.
“Its the reason for enlightenment skepticism”
Your sketiocism, like your motrality is highly selective. You’re not the least bit sskeptical about claims that Iran is making nukes are you?
“That so much time is dedicated to conformity of interpretation, indicates to me that the proponents don’t care so much about the results.”
The only resutls you are cocenred with is how to avoid Israel’s accoutability.
The reality is that you yearn for the good old days of suicide bombing, when it was so easy for Hasbarats like you to claim moral superiority over Hamas and your cla to victimhood was easy to sell. After Lebanon and Gaza, Israel have shot themselves on the foot and apologists like yourself have not adapted to the new reality. That would explain why you still pretend that it’s 2004 and that pizza bars are being blown up, because your rhetoric doesn’t cope with reality.
Hamas is just pissing morality, unless you are a woman of course.
link to irinnews.org
“I stated that it likely occurred in specific instances, but the predispositions of many dissenters convinced them that it happened generally.”
Spoken by the person who didn’t know what Haganah had done or what Morris had said, and yet this issue has come up here before, you were involved in the discussion, and links were provided. You don’t know what you are talking about. The only scholarly debate (leaving aside the Israeli apologists) is over whether the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians was intended from the very start. Some, like Morris and Meron Benvenisti say that in the opening months the expulsion of Palestinian villagers had a military purpose and wasn’t primarily intended to be ethnic cleansing. I suspect that is incredibly naive–it suggests that the people who arranged and organized Plan Dalet never thought about how convenient it would be to keep the Palestinians out even after the war was over. Ilan Pappe, Finkelstein and Palestinian historians think it was deliberate ethnic cleansing from the start.
During the later part of the war there seems to be a consensus–Palestinians were being driven out quite deliberately to change the demographic balance. If you read Benvenisti’s “Sacred Landscapes” (try reading that, but don’t expect me to reread it with you) you’ll find him taking the view I outlined above. His book was written a few years before Morris came out with more data about the massacres, so he understates the violence. But he agrees it was ethnic cleansing in the latter part of the war.
“It takes STUDY to distinguish the generalization from the analysis. Generalization serves me to the extent to identify “Israel needs reform” but does not serve me sufficiently to determine what strategy, what effort is best, and it particularly disserves me to lie to myself in the generalization, “Hagannah was a murderous organization designed to ethnically cleanse the region of Palestinians”.”
See, Richard, this is why I couldn’t stand to discuss things with you for long. That last sentence barely qualifies as English–what does it mean to say Hagannah as an organization was “designed” to ethnically cleanse the region of Palestinians? The assertion is that in fact there was a systematic effort to drive Palestinians from their homes in 1948 and after the war they were not allowed back–that’s ethnic cleansing.
“Israel killed six after they were attacked from the Palestinian side.”
After Israel broke the ceasefire. Unless your argument is that Hamas has no right to respond.
“Hamas is just pissing morality, unless you are a woman of course.”
Yes Yoni, blockades, white phsphorous and 500 lb bombs are so much more humane than domestic violence.
I hate the blockade, was against any use of WP and think the 500 lbs were a mistake, can you say the same about domestic violence in Gaza?
Yes, that was 1. I was simply stating that the deaths came after a counter-attack by Hamas, not by the initial strike by Israel.
Good lord. Literally, “So when did you stop beating your wife,” huh.
Honestly, yonira. What a fantastic show of hypocrisy.
about the same time you stopped going to your Neo Nazi club meetings Chaos.
got any more anti-native american hate speech for me today?
Why would I give any of that? I’m sure your girlfriend gets plenty of abuse just from dating someone like you.
Do you think domestic violence is unique to Gaza Yoni?
I found this interesting. It points out how being confined to small spaces contributes to domestic violence.
“The problem of domestic violence in Israel surfaced in the media during the first Gulf War in 1991 when soldiers were not mobilized and husbands and wives (and their children) were forced to be together in sealed rooms. Beginning in the 1990s the rate of husbands murdering wives spiralled upwards in Israel and this trend has continued, with over 200 spousal murders reported by 2002.”
link to jewishvirtuallibrary.org
“Yes, that was 1. I was simply stating that the deaths came after a counter-attack by Hamas, not by the initial strike by Israel”
In other words, your using Witty logic here, that the Palestinians wouldn’t suffer as much if they didn’t resist every time Israel gets and itch and feels like bombing them.
Donald,
In your posts the sum total of your “linking” was the word link. I’m sorry, but I just don’t read others posts that respectfully that I am inclined to read every link. Do you honestly?
I hear you evaluating the chain of events through the window of judgement, and you presume that that is what I am doing as well.
I’m doing something different. My reference is exploration towards goal nearly entirely. It is a continental divide between myself, you and other dissenters.
It is the reason that I chide, “you are not attempting to make change, but only vainly be right”.
Through the window of “what can happen?”, my comments on Hamas are important. And, it starts with intent.
The reason is that there are really three functional layers of intent in states of conflict:
1. Unconditional hatred and opposition (dogmatic, ideological, the best that can be achieved in that setting is containment and/or temporary cease fire. Its analagous to being relieved that one has income today, but without the security that that will sustain: my current condition. Relief that there is not war today.)
2. Conditional reconciliation – Willingness to reconcile. “If you do this, we will be able to do this”, thereby creating a path for peace/justice. To be earnest, those conditions cannot be a setup, a fraud. It is was you criticize about Israel with the cease-fire, that they did stated that they were entering a conditional reconciliation but then pulled the rug out.
3. Unconditional reconciliation – Saintly. Soul force of Gandhi or King.
The dance of intent must be consented.
Likud dominated Israel lives within the unconditional rejection territory. Kadima/labor dominated Israel lives within the conditional reconciliation territory, and has adopted that relative to Fatah and Fayyad (that before Oslo, Israel regarded as brutal terrorists, but their commitment over time demonstrated that they were more mature than seeking attention that terror gives, or anger solely).
One ommission from your and the link’s analysis is the condition of internal civil war within Palestine. (I am not playing the opportunist “there is no partner for peace” theme, but a different point entirely.) In Oslo, Israel committed to negotiate with the PLO as the “sole representative of the Palestinian people”. The internal civil war with Hamas conflicts with that commitment, and that combined with the too recent history of consistent terror compels Israel to not deal with Hamas as respectfully or conditionally as you would hope (probably you are young and don’t bear the memory of their very gruesome terror. Its unforgettable frankly, it was so INTENTIONALLY intimate and gruesome.)
It is a reasonable approach for Israel to deal with a single representative party.
Even using South Africa as an example. De Klerk was able to negotiate with ANC largely because there came to be one authoritative representative of the black majority. There were contending parties and organizations, but the ANC was functionally singly authorized to represent. That unity, combined with the magnamity of Mandela and cadre (not all of them), made it possible for reconciliation. A PATH was created.
It was NOT solely the message of one person one vote, or BDS, that made it possible (in contrast to impossible).
Criticisms of Israel that it does not intend to make peace are important ones, which I observe sickeningly clearly. It is the reason that I name the expansion as an indicator of Israeli intent, which could and should be very different than current.
I sincerely look for similar signs of Hamas intent to determine if there is a path, if there is willingness, as opposed to internal opportunism and/or as opposed to set up.
The keeping of the cease-fire was a sign of that, a prospect. The rejection of voluntarily keeping the cease-fire after was a different sign.
Change there is a tangible challenge.
“Innocent Palestinians die because of these dishonest interpretations, so yeah, some of us are intolerant of them. ”
If you asked yourself the question of why innocent Palestinians die, I believe that you’d discover that it is NOT in the slightest because of liberal Jews that are reluctant to judge, but for other tangible reasons that are achievable realistically.
There has to be a path for reconciliation. To the extent that long-term objectives of Hamas are to eliminate the Zionist entity (stated not only by Iran, Hezbollah, but also currently and proudly by Hamas officials in the settings that are slightly beyond the public eye, but reported by Arab press periodically. Examples include when Hamas delegations visited Iran last month, they affirmed there that they would never recognize Israel as Israel, hence great fears about the role of Iran, that they will not create the setting of conditional reconciliation but instead the backbone for resistance ONLY.)
Its seen, and its not inconsequential. Sadat stated to the Arab League, “I don’t care what you say about staying away from Israel. It is in our interest to reconcile. We are neighbors, they will not magically disappear. I’m going.” (Not a direct quote).
Hamas is NOT saying that to Iran. It is saying, “you are right, we will keep to the discipline of resistance as described in Koran. We accept your support and your leadership in the form of DEFINING the range of options and allow you to have functional veto over”. (again not a quote).
Most liberal Zionists desparately wish that we could turn back the clock, that we could compel the IDF to not provoke, instead to restrain (say on the November 4th raid that might have been stimulated by accurate intelligence, but poor judgement), or to relax the border crossings rather than incrementally and unilaterally tighten the border crossings.
Even in this setting Donald. IF you noted that my intentions were sincere, which they are, you could have pursued the approach of appealing to my intentions to put them into more action than currently, in ways that are appealing to my personality. (I am just an example, the same logic applies to others, liberals with varying motivation and concerns.)
Instead you indulged (literally) in condemnation and attempted character assasination. Rather than respectfully say, “I want to show you this that you may not have seen. This affected my thinking on the issue.”
Your frustration is similar to mine. I don’t understand how a humanist like Phil can neglect to comment on the presence and degree of affect of Hamas historical and current behavior, skeptically. Nor you.
You don’t seem to understand how the theme of character assaults, even on compromising and compromised officials, prohibits their maneuvering room. By that theme of character assassination, you eliminate the prospect of change.
It is the difference between demonization and criticism.
The choice of leadership say someone like Norman Finkelstein, is indicative. Norman’s stock in trade is character assaults. It has ALWAYS made the results of his efforts, 3 steps back for every 1 step forward, and ALWAYS alienating his prospective allies.
That his scholarship theme is compromised as well, makes his leadership difficult. My criticism of his scholarship is that he regards supporting documentation as if it is proof, causitive. Chomsky is the same. I’ve heard him say hundreds of times, “what other interpretation can there be?” when there were hundreds of alternatives, and the gullible wowed audience chews it up and spits it out religiously (not skeptically).
Its a tragedy for the world, that the only form that determination appears, is such judgemental and gambling judgemental. Its a habit on his part, one that he is aware of, and hopefully renouncing in favor of more respectfully informative approaches.
Richard,
You seriously are a sick and depraved individual, who it seems cannot utter a sentence without including a blatant lie or false assertion. I am beginning to realise how sinister and perverse you are, especially with this long and largely incoherent diatribe you contributed.
I used to believe that you simply gave lip service to a 2 state solution and supported Obama’s ineffectual approach because you knew it would lead to nothing, but it seems you also have another characteristic, the ability to stare reality in the face and completely ignore it.
Not only are you an insufferable narcissist, who believes he is so much more enlightened than all the other contributors, but as Donald has pointed out, you have a remarkable capacity to lie to yourself as well as us.
All your rhetoric about judgement and intent and motives always, always carry one massive caveat – none of your stipulations or expectations apply to Israel. As Donald pointed out, your logic is based on the assumption that Israelis are too traumatized to be logical or reasonable and thus, the burden of proof and “reform” rests entirely with the Palestinians.
You begin with the false claim that Kadima/labor holds the key to reconciliation and political se4ttlemetn even though Kadima produced absolutely nothing during it’s reign. In fact, the settlements expanded under Kadima and Israel launched 2 extremely brutal wars of aggression.
You also deny that you are playing the opportunist “there is no partner for peace” theme, but in reality, that is precisely what you are doing because in spite of the volumes of evidence presented to you that attest to Hamas’s efforts to move to the centre and moderate their position, you continue to ignore it.
In effect, your defacto position is that “there is no partner for peace” because you don’t want that partner to be Hamas. Yes, it is reasonable for Israel to deal with a single representative party, but it is for the Palestinians to decide who that might be, not Israel and not you.
You piously claim to “sincerely look for similar signs of Hamas intent” to show their willingness, but when I documented that willingness in great detail, you dismissed it as unrealistic or naive of me to believe that Hamas could really change.
You then cite one of your many lies, that Hamas rejected the cease-, when it has been repeatedly demonstrated to you that Israel rejected the ceasefire after having broken it.
Innocent Palestinians died not because of dishonest interpretations, but because Israelis killed them. Yesterday you suggested that Hamas should have fired some rockets into the desert as a warning to Israel after Israel had killed 6 Palestinians, yet, you make no such demands on Israel, who’s first option was war.
If there is a path for reconciliation, you will never find it Witty, because your ideological blind spot will hide it from you every time.
Hamas have withdrawn calls to eliminate Israel, yet you insist they haven’t.
Iran has never threatened Israel, but you insist they have.
Hezbollah are no threat to Israel so long as Israel stays out of Southern Lebanon, but you insist otherwise.
You insist because your mid programming had told you that this is reality, no matter what the facts may be.
Like all Zionist shills, you pretend that the whole conflict rests on the recognition of Israel by the above parties, when it was clearly demonstrated that Arafat’s recognition of ISrael achieve nothing.
You pull out arbitrary quotes from the air, never ever citing a source, or providing links, because you know very well that your selective interpretation of events will never hold up to scrutiny.
You claim to speak for “most liberal Zionists”, the same way you claimed to speak for the majority of the world’s population , irrespective of the fact that polls contradicted you.
Your intentions are not sincere Witty. In fact, they are shamelessly dishonest and your lies and false talking points and only serve to insult those on this forum that know the subject intimately and know that you are lying.
As Donald said, you are deserving up the utmost condemnation because you are so cynical and vulgar in your dishonesty and denial. Your reputation on this forum is putrid and you only have yourself to blame for your predicament.
As Donald said, you are a huge disappointment. While you profess to be someone in the vein of Shlomo Ben Ami, in reality you are simply a Likudnik in drag. All you have achieved is to convince the rest of us that there is no such thing as an honest liberal Zionist. By your exmaple, you have demonstrated that Zionism is a doomed and macabre experiment that has turned oteherwise reasonable human beings into monsters.
Like the rest of them, you are a sick and depraved human being.
The objective obstacles remain.
They are a construction of demands by Palestinians and loyal solidarity, AND the policies and practices of Israel. BOTH, and they certainly reinforce each other.
To improve that dynamic, there are then two relevant tasks:
1. For Hamas to stay the course in demonstrating its reformed intent to reconcile for co-existance if not for friendship. That would then include lowering the temperature of animosity towards Israel as Israel, including rejecting the promotion of revolutionary suggestions for single-state, except through the path of peaceful co-existing two states as transition at least. Otherwise, the relationship is of threat, not of co-existence.
2. For Israel to change its understandings. To incorporate the reality of nakba in national understanding of the events of its formation (as it has thanks to people like Morris and many others). To fully humanize Palestinians, in a way that results in real actions regarding the Jim Crow relations that Phil describes, as well as more willingly helpful community development efforts in both Israel and Palestine.
The means to that end should be to persuade, so that viable Israeli liberal parties successfully enact changes in Israeli policies. If that includes appealing to liberal religioius interpretations, take the responsibility to do it. It that includes presentation door to door, face to face, human to human, do it. If it includes art, do it. If it includes genuinely non-violent demonstration, do it.
In this case, the agitation approach, especially if conducted imprecisely and opportunistically (including flirtation with single state effort) rather than sensitively, will only add heat to a pressure cooker, communicating and constituting ONLY threat, and not addiction intervention as claimed (of which most of the work is follow-up, recovery, which historically the left has neglected, especially when its motivation is not love, but anger.)
Your and others use of the term pacification to describe active efforts at reconciliation, are exactly the oppossite of what accomplishes any good for anyone. Its gang logic, manly in the trivial heroic way, rather than manly in the substantive constructive and patient way.
Richard, try acknowledging Israeli crimes and not just those by the far right . Stop pretending it’s some far rightists who are to blame for everything and cease this practice of double standards where Hamas guilt is taken for granted (I’m not young, I recall their brutality) but you hem and haw when it comes to the IDF or Haganah.
I get along fine with liberal Zionists who are honest and don’t play the double standard game you play. I agree that Palestinians have murdered innocent people beginning in the 1920′s and that a completely nonviolent approach would have been better. I agree to disagree with them on some basic things, like whether a Jewish state is fundamentally any more compatible with secular democracy than a Muslim or Christian state–if they don’t try to weasel or make excuses for the atrocities and ethnic cleansings committed by their side then they are honest people, and for my part there’s never been a problem admitting that Hamas suicide bombings are cruel or that Palestinians have committed atrocities over the years. You seem to imagine I’m your mirror image. Nope. As for the two state solution, it’s up to the Palestinians to decide what they will settle for and perhaps a two state solution could be a bridge to reconciliation and one state down the road. But it’s not my decision.
Now go out and read Meron Benvenisti’s “Sacred Landscapes”. It’s low key, not Finkelstein’s style at all, just honesty (about both sides) and very measured anger at the lies and hypocrisy and the ethnic cleansing of 1948. It’s slightly outdated, having been published in 2000 before Morris pointed out some more Zionist atrocities. And as I said, Benvenisti, like some other Israeli historians, doesn’t think the ethnic cleansing was intentional right from the very beginning of 1948, but that expulsions based on military necessity had clearly morphed into expulsions for demographic purposes by mid 1948. I suspect that’s naive–how could the demographic factor not be in people’s minds from the very start? But this comforting view might make the book go down a little easier for you.
Lets read some text and examine our assumptions.
Do you believe that it makes a hill of beans difference whether the current effort revolves around a condemning generalization of 1948?
Why would you?
You are still guessing about what I’ve read, what I understand, how and why.
To summarize, I regard the current conflict as ultimately a conflict, not ultimately an oppression. And, regarding 1948, that the accusations that “Plan Dalet” constituted the predominance of what is Zionism, are biased, hateful, ludicrous.
Further, that the setting included prominently the ethnic cleansing intent, literally and completely, among Arab nationalists and Arab states.
Does your understanding of the events of 1948 constitute Israel as oppressor, or Israel as participant in conflict?
It is certainly up to the Palestinians what they conclude for themselves, as it is up to the Israelis. Both are foreign to you, and you have “no business” intervening, except that some good can come of reconciliation, whereas only evil will come from exagerated tension.
You do affect the outcome in that light, as incidental as both our impacts are. That is that if you convey encouragement to resist in the form of threat to Israel, you will perpetuate war, as Israelis will rationally not just fold up their self-governance to a single state.
It is the terrain. That we can influence for peace or for war.
Its not enough for just Palestinians to change, though it might be. It requires Israel to change certainly.
I don’t see that you are working for that.
I’ll look for the Benvenisti text. Thanks for the recommendation.
Have you read any histories of Zionism, or histories of Israel from a liberal Zionist perspective?
Dan Fleshler recommended two texts that I found to be wonderful.
Howard Morley Sacher –A History of Israel
Walter Laqueur -A History of Zionism
If you have read history from other perspective than your selected, more power to you. If you haven’t, to participate in effective discussion, it requires that you understand events from more than one perspective, and not in some guarded defensive read, actually hear.
As has been stated over and over, some as description some as manipulation: “the history is more complex than that”.
Which books have you read Witty?
You lexture to others about them not considering the Zionist perscpetive, yet you haven’t even read Benny Morrin, let along Illan Pape or Ton Segev.
And given teh copious quotes we have from Zionists long before 1948, it is futile to argue that “Plan Dalet” does not relfect the predominance of what is Zionism, especialy given that those poilicies are not only being enforced, but taken to further extremes.
I’ve read two books by Bennie Morris, Righteous Victims and an earlier history (Pasha something, that didn’t touch me much). I’ve read a history of the Palestinian people (I don’t remember the original title) by Ilan Pappe, one by Tom Segev (1968), books and many articles by Akiva Eldar, Baruch Kimmerling, Rashid Khalidi, Ali Abunimeh.
Is there any other material that you’d recommend to be confident that I’ve read balanced material?
Have you read any histories from a Zionist perspective, Shingo?
Its not surprising to me that you would elevate your suspicion to some status of “fact”, Shingo.
It seems like a common mode for you, very colored glasses, even on facts, not only on interpretations or goals.
“The Lemon Tree” (forgot the author) which came out a few years ago is also good. The author is sympathetic to both sides. He focuses on the life stories and family histories of one Palestinian man and one Israeli woman–the Holocaust is a very prominent part of the Israeli side of the book and the Nakba of course dominates the Palestinian narrative. I read this a few years ago and to me it was a model of how books on this subject should be written. Possibly my attitude since then has become a bit more hardened, though for good reason, I think. Unfortunately (and not surprisingly) the book didn’t get much if any attention from the MSM–probably too sympathetic to the Palestinians for the NYT’s taste, though recently their book review pages have become more open.
“Have you read any histories of Zionism, or histories of Israel from a liberal Zionist perspective?”
Depends on what you mean. Avi Shlaim still says he believes in Israel’s right to exist, so he’s a very liberal Zionist. I haven’t read a history of Zionism from the perspective of someone who whitewashes it, except when I was a child and read a condensed version of some book on just this subject in the Reader’s Digest. Wingate (a crazy British Zionist) was portrayed as a hero in one part, which tells you what sort of book it was. I totally believed it then. I’ve read “The Proud Tower” which, if I recall correctly, has a chapter on the Dreyfuss Affair and is very sympathetic to Zionism–Tuchman was gullible enough to endorse Joan Peters when her book came out. I’d read The New Republic and Commentary and sometimes Dissent all through the 80′s and much of the 90′s, which are all utterly Zionist, so I was permeated with that viewpoint–even before reading others there was something about what I was reading (obviously in Commentary ) which rubbed me the wrong way and made me suspicious. I’d read James Michener’s “The Source”, which purports to be a basically accurate historical fiction about Israel and it was ridiculously one-sided. His book “Centennial” about Colorado seemed pretty close to the truth about the Plains Indian wars, with just names being changed, but otherwise there was a one-to-one correspondence with real events. “The Source” is like something put out by Hasbara central. Michener prided himself on his accuracy, so he clearly thought he was giving his readers a fair and balanced view. There’s a sympathetic Arab character to prove it.
I haven’t read Sachar, though I wonder how thorough he is if you make this distinction between people like Segev and Morris (Morris is an openly racist Zionist) on the one hand and Sachar on the other. Does Sachar not talk about the massacres and forced population removals on the Zionist side in the 1948 war? Does he not talk about the shooting of infilitrators after the war, most of them unarmed? If not, why would I want to read him? I’m serious. It’s all well and good to find out about the idealistic Zionists or whatever positive aspects there are to the story (or anyway, the state-building which maybe Palestinians could learn from) but if he doesn’t make clear about the dark side, then it’s not a serious history. I can’t judge him from what you say, because you seem to have a capacity not to notice certain things, but if he doesn’t talk about the bad parts then I don’t want to read him. If he does, then I will.
It’s not like the people I’ve read dismiss European antisemitism and/or Arab violence as huge factors in the story–there are people who do this and show no sympathy for Jews desperate to flee anywhere they could in the 30′s, but it’s not an attitude I’ve seen in what I’ve read (nor one I agree with). Segev doesn’t cover up Arab massacres of Jews in the 20′s–if anything, there is too little in his book “One Palestine Complete” about Zionist terror in the 30′s.
Take a look yourself. The two texts are comprehensive, not simplistic, not biased from my read.
You’ve read much that Dan Fleshler has written. The recommendations came from him.
Don’t succomb to predisposition.
I’ve read quite a bit that challenged my Zionist sympathies and confirmed my liberal Zionist sympathies.
I’ve read enough to NOT indulge in out of context projection. I remain skeptical of everything that I read, without predisposition.
I acknowledge that there can be much and even prevailing truth in presentations that include errors. Otherwise I wouldn’t be able to even consider any comment by Chomsky or Finkelstein or Pappe.
“The two texts are comprehensive, not simplistic, not biased from my read.”
That’s not much of an endorsement and I don’t say that out of snark. If the books were as comprehensive as you say either you have missed seeing some of the most important facts in them or else they are whitewashing or were written too long ago and still repeat some of the myths now discredited. You should not have this blinkered attitude about mainstream Zionist atrocities if the books were all you say they are, or if you read them carefully. It’s as if someone read a history of Palestinian resistance and somehow missed reading about suicide bombing.
This is a shell game.
“Watch what we say they say and not what we do.”
Anyone with two brain cells knows full well all that all Palestinians need to do to be incited is open their front doors.
What’s miraculous is that any Palestinian is still interested in making peace with Israel.
“What’s miraculous is that any Palestinian is still interested in making peace with Israel.”
Or that after stealing everything the Palestinians have, the Israelis claim they want peace, but that the Palestinians have to meet them half way.
One need not justify Hamas propaganda to recognise the message behind Israeli propaganda in its regard. Beyond propping up the “no partner” excuse for Israeli intransigence and continued settlement, it serves to reinforce the false dichotomies of “culture of death vs. culture of life”, “blind hatred vs. willingess to compromise”, “Nobel prizes vs. suicide bombers”, “clash of civilisations”. It helps to drive home the neocon messages: “they hate us for our freedom”, “war of good vs. evil”, “Israel and the US share the same values and the same enemies”, “Hamas = Al Qaida = Iraq = Afghanistan = Somalia = Mindanao = Kashmir = Iran = ?” It makes your average American ask himself “What kind of people are these? Why can’t they be more like the Israelis?”
It’s the chaser to all those bombed out buses near MacD’s and Pizza Huts in Israel, that Americans saw on TV and remember so well, vs. all the murder and oppression of Palestinians they’ve never seen or heard about. It’s all part of the campaign to dehumanise Palestinians. Hamas just makes it so bloody easy.
The pizza huts, school buses (yes), bus stations, cafes, hotels, did convey that Hamas was equivalent to Al Quaida, ruthless.
If Hamas has changed, let that be seen, not in rose colored form, in reality. Seeing and hearing of Hamas continuing to shell civilians, reinforces that view of them. It doesn’t say, “compared to the people that we could have killed, we restrained ourselves. We only shelled a few border towns.”
It says to the world, “we continue to regard Israelis as sub-human”.
Not the basis of confidence in a single democratic state.
“The pizza huts, school buses (yes), bus stations, cafes, hotels, did convey that Hamas was equivalent to Al Quaida, ruthless.”
You’re truly pathetic Witty. You keep harping in this BS as though it happened yesterday. You’ve just as bad as UNIX. The suicide attacks ended in 2004, and did so because Hamas decreed an end to suicide attacks.
How many thousands of innocent civlians have Israel massacred since then? Many more than Al Qaeda.
“If Hamas has changed, let that be seen, not in rose colored form, in reality”
There’s plenty to see Witty. You just pretend it’s not there because it doesn’t conform to your talking points.
How’s this for reality?
1. From August 2004, Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire with Israel.
2. In 2005 Hamas in its election campaign did not call for an end of
Israel but instead called for an independent Palestinian state with
Jerusalem as its capital.
3. In 2005 Hamas signed the Cairo Declaration of 2005 and the National
Reconciliation Document, which, as interpreted by Haniyeh and
Maschaal, means that Hamas “fully respects” the previous agreements
between the Palestinians and Israel.
4. In February, 2006, Khaled Mashaal said: “(Hamas) cannot oppose the
unified Arab stance expressed in the resolution passed by the Arab
League summit. That resolution, approved in Beirut, speaks of
recognizing Israel and normalizing relations with it in exchange for a
full withdrawal and a solution to the refugee problem”.
5. Hamas won the election and continued to observe the unilateral
ceasefire until Israel attacked Gaza in June 2006 killing 220 civilians.
6. In 2006, Prime Minister Haniyeh of Hamas wrote to Pres. George Bush
offering a 20 year ceasefire with Israel during which there could be
an exchange of ambassadors, in other words, official recognition of
Israel.
7. In early 2006 in Gaza, Hamas (and the small parties who were
shooting the Qassam rockets –Islamic Jihad, PFLP, DFLP and Al Aqsa’s
Martyrs’ Brigade), agreed to participate in a workshop and large march
under the banner: Two Peoples, Two States, One Peace. (The
Fatah-Hamas conflict prevented the workshop and march from being
held.)
8. On June `8, 2008, Israel and Hamas agreed upon a ceasefire. Hamas
thereafter prevented the small parties in Gaza from launching Qassam
rockets into Israel, although a few groups or individuals evaded the
Hamas checkpoints to launch occasional rockets
9. In November 4, 2008, the ceasefire ended when Israel attacked inside
Gaza to destroy a tunnel that went into Israel. The small parties then
began shooting rockets into Israel again.
10. Hamas has been offering peace to Israel since before it
was elected. It renounced violence in action, which is more important
than words, through unilateral ceasefires and the negotiated
ceasefires with Israel, it “fully respects” previous agreements, it
accepts the Arab Initiative, and Haniyeh offered an exchange of
ambassadors, surely an official recognition of Israel.
11. Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto
link to guardian.co.uk
12. Oh and did you know that Hamas renounced suicide bombing in 2006.
link to guardian.co.uk
Is that enough for you Witty, or do you demand, as Blankfort has observed, complete pacification and humiliation of the Palestinians to give you satisfaction?
“Seeing and hearing of Hamas continuing to shell civilians, reinforces that view of them.”
Seeing as Hamas have shelled no one in over a year, your views are clearly disconnected from reality.
“It says to the world, “we continue to regard Israelis as sub-human”.
No, it says that no matter what Hamas do, Israel and it’s useful idiots will pretend that Hamas are still carrying out suicide bombings the same way that you and Israel and it’s useful idiots pretend there is no peace offer signed by 22 Arab States, offering to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders.
You’re raison détre is to lie and continue to perpetuate the myth that Israel has no partner for peace, because like Israel, you don’t wantto pay the price for peace.
Oppenheim’s article is very general, and does not necessarily reflect the current state of Palestinian TV (If I’m not mistaken, the picture accompanying the article is far from recent). Furthermore, I would not take a Netanyahu appointee’s word – through some “incitement index” – for what is and is not appropriate for Palestinian viewers.
Your points on Hamas conflict with multiple other official announcements by them, asserting that they will NEVER recognize Israel.
And, as 100% of shells fired at Israeli civilians are war crimes, I hope that you are not contesting that those rockets and shells were actually fired.
I’m glad that you added your voice to the Guardian’s comments on point 9, which is radically different from everything you’ve argued since.
When push came to shove, they shoved, they didn’t patiently wait.
The comments on understanding their condition and options are important for Israel to consider, to actually endeavor to take opportunities to realize peace, rather than opportunistically ignore them.
But, the rose-colored glasses on Hamas are just a fantasy on your part. I sincerely hope that they have renounced violence as means. It is a great drain in the world, everybody’s world.
Hamas started suicide bombing in what, 1993 (the year of ratification of Oslo)? And continued it for 13 whole years, a very long time to maintain a gruesome policy that conveyed to the world that Hamas was a murderous blood-thirsty organization devoid of morality.
It wasn’t true that the social service wing was devoid of morality, so they were very poorly served by their leadership. But, it is a fantasy on your part that the healing from that status is quick, magically changed in only 4 years.
Israel slaughtered children at a rate of a hundred a week at the height of the recent conflict, Witty. How come you don’t care about that? How do you sleep at night knowing that Zionism casts a worse image on the Jewish people than even the blood libels of old?
Do you even know how many Iraqis and Afghan civilians the US kills per day? Yet you seem to sleep well as long as you incite against Israel.
You’re the reason we’re in Iraq at all. I figure if we take down one of the largest corrupting influences on American democracy, the rest will follow.
“When push came to shove, they shoved, they didn’t patiently wait.”
Would Israel havewaited patiently had Hamas killed 6 Israelis in a single day?You also seem insistent on perpetuating the myth ghat Israel respects restraint. As Moshe Dayan expllained, that’s not how Israel operates. If yhe is mo reaction the first time, they push harder the next time and so on until they get a bite.
It was the very fact ghat Hamas were being moderate that inspired Israel tobreak the ceasefire in the first place. More mderation would have incited them to up the ante even further.
“But, the rose-colored glasses on Hamas are just a fantasy on your part. I sincerely hope that they have renounced violence as means. It is a great drain in the world, everybody’s world.”
You’re such an insufferable hypocrite Witty.
All my points are sourced and verifiable. They are based on recorded events, rather than your imaginary world where it’s still 2004 and pizza bars are still being blonwn up.
Never do you condemn Israle for not renouncing vilance, nay, you support it and occasionally suggest their performance could be better.
“Hamas started suicide bombing in what, 1993 (the year of ratification of Oslo)? And continued it for 13 whole years, a very long time to maintain a gruesome policy that conveyed to the world that Hamas was a murderous blood-thirsty organization devoid of morality”
If 13 years of violence is a long time, then how do you describe 43 years of the same?
“But, it is a fantasy on your part that the healing from that status is quick, magically changed in only 4 years.”
Why, because 4 years is not long enough or becsue you refuse to believe it’s 2010 and not 2004?
Or is ti relaly because when you look at the evidence, it is Israel that is the perpetrator of violence, instability and criminality?
I suspect that the notion of a moderate Hamas is as thretning to you as it is to the Israeli leadership.
eee, was that you whispering in W and Cheney’s other ear when I was w/ him in the Oval Office?
ANYBODY here– who do you trust for both American and Israeli long-term interests, Witty, the American Jew, or Shmuel, the former Israeli and now Italian citizen? I don’t think it’s a real contest.
Anybody here, here is a clip from March 31:
link to memritv.org
Now who do you trust?
Case closed.
Not MEMRI. They’ve been discredited and ousted as a pro-Israel propaganda shill that routinely corrupts the so-called translations it puts out.
They helped lie us into a war with Iraq. That’s who you’re relying on as a source?
Good God, have you shown up a day late and a dollar short in this conversation. Which right wing blog did you scrounge that from, out of curiousity?
Chaos,
You are a pathological liar. See my answers in later posts.
Way, way ahead of you, bucko. Still waiting for you to address the fact that MEMRI helped paved the way for US war in Iraq.
One further note about Fern Oppenheimer, worth keeping in mind:
Correction: Oppenheim
(I just got back from the eye doctor, and my pupils are still dilated)
OOOooo oooOOO
That’s 24 Os, right?
IIInnn 333DDD
___________
Does her company “Applied Marketing Innovations” have a website? Or is the omission the innovative part?
Blankfort completely misses the irony of complaining about a Jerusalem Post article while his country’s soldiers gut almost dead pregnant women to take the bullets out of them so that they can cover up that they killed them. He misses the irony of complaining about Israel while his own country is killing civilians in Afghanistan and Iraq. Blankfort again misses the irony when he lives in one of the most racist countries in the world. Few other countries have such differences in SAT or similar scores between blacks and whites as the US.
So why is Blankfort so obsessed with Israel and is neglecting to monitor his own troops to make sure they at least kill the pregnant women they plan to gut? Who knows. What we do know is that whatever the reason is, it is irrational. Blankfort won’t bother to fix his own home. He would rather pick on Israel. Does that make any sense?
Do you think trash-talking the United States is really going to persuade American Jews to look favorably (or rather, overlook favorably) upon Israeli atrocities?
Not that it’s worth the effort, but it’s absurdly easy to thwart your absurd argument (that would have, among other things, made the Nuremberg Trials impossible to hold, if it were actually a valid case)
Jewish UK MP comparing Israel’s crimes to that of Nazi Germany
Irregardless of what I write, I am sure that already quite a few American Jews are wondering why the radical left would rather incite against Israel than fix the US. And the answer is clear based on the blood libels and racism rampant in the commentary on this site.
The US is a Police State, says former Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury
link to counterpunch.org
People in police states are never taken seriously when they criticize others. Your moral standing is zero.
And who’s collaborating with the US government?
link to counterpunch.org
You know, some of us actually do read Counterpunch regularly and are familiar with the full spectrum of articles there.
What does it matter what other state a police state collaborates with? You still have no moral standing to criticize anybody. Fix your pregnant women gutting police state before daring to incite against Israel.
Ha! What a complete and utter joke you are. So now that you can’t cherry pick from CounterPunch anymore you’re discarding it like a used tissue in favor of spamming us with falsified MEMRI translations? We’ve seen them before, chief, and we know that Israelis are responsible for it.
Prove this MEMRI translation is false. Otherwise you are again proven to be a liar.
You are a typical Israel hater. You irrationally discount any evidence that does not support your twisted cause of inciting against Israel.
The clip proves who Hamas are. Now deal with it.
MEMRI caught in a whopper of a lie, for starters.
Yeah, sure by some radical left lying loons that you have no problem believing.
For you, anything on the internet that supports your position is true. So long as you can keep inciting against Israel. This a recent Hamas clip. Deal with it.
“Irregardless of what I write, I am sure that already quite a few American Jews are wondering why the radical left would rather incite against Israel than fix the US”
On the contrary eee, support for Israel among Anerican Jews is falling and has been falling steadily sine 2002.
I expect the fiasco that is your emergence on this blog might even ultimately cost Israel a whole percentage point before all is said and done. Heh.
As an Arabic speaker, I can vouch for the claim that MEMRI translations are projects of deception. I recall one MEMRI clip of a Palestinian girl who said that “the Jews are killing us.” However, the good people at MEMRI decided to translate that into something along the lines of “we must kill the Jews!”……..
Way, way ahead of you, bucko. Still waiting for you to address the fact that Counterpunch helped paved the way Apocalypse.
eee
You’re an utter disgrace. A sorry excuse for a biped you are! Your SOLE argument that you’ve been throwing around is: ‘Americans are also slaughtering, why only picking on us?’ You don’t even realise that you’re not denying that Israel is committing atrocities! You just don’t like it that Americans are pointing the finger. What if those Americans are pointing the finger at BOTH?
I’m disturbed by your lack of grammar. Counterpunch paved the way for what, exactly? And when you address me as “Apocalypse,” are you equating me to the X-Men character?
Use prepositions or punctuation, chief.
Shmuel,
Thank you very for defending Hamas TV.
What do you think of this recent clip?
link to memritv.org
And this is third time you blog-spammed from the widely infamous and discredited MEMRI “think tank.”
We all know it’s run by “former” Israel intel agents, eee.
Memri is not discredited. Their translations are almost always true. If you want to dismiss this clip, find an Arab speaker to say the translation is not accurate.
“almost always true”
LOL not good enough.
“MEMRI was co-founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in Israeli military intelligence, and another Israeli Meyrav Wurmser.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Hmm do ya think they have an agenda..?
Free logic lesson no. 3: Straw man
“A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.[1] To “attack a straw man” is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the “straw man”), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
Shmuel,
Thank you for the irrelevant lesson.
What you are doing is called dodging the question. No need for wikipedia to figure that.
What do you think of the clip?
I’ll tell you what I think of the clip — the subtitles were put on it by Israelis and that tells me all I need to know about why I’m being shown this clip in the first place, instead of, say, clips from Israeli television portraying Arabs as hateful savages.
Easy as pie. If accurate, despicable. I do not like Hamas and have never said otherwise – hence the straw.
My lessons don’t seem to be doing you much good, however. You still refuse to address Israeli abuses, insisting that those who raise them have no right to do so (ad hominem) and that they must be Israel haters because they BASH Israel (begging the question). Semester over. Grade: F
Shmuel,
But then, the clip is very recent. So do Hamas incite against Jews or not on their television? Or did they just do so in the past.
Thank you for the grade though I do not recall enrolling in your course “Logic for Israel haters 101″.
You miss the point or you choose to ignore it. Why would Americans spend so much time BASHING Israel with a sprinkling of blood libel and a touch of antisemitism (only in the commentary)? Why are they not fixing their own country?
I am not here to discuss Israel’s missteps. There are other forums to do that. I am here to find out why there is this irrational hatred of Israel and why you are so blind to it.
Shmuel is from Israel, you dumbass.
So what, pathological liar?
Were you intending to quote Dick Cheney? Just asking.
“What do you think of this recent clip?”
It proves there are idiots in the world, nothing more.
It proves that Hamas television is still inciting against Israel. Just like this site.
Yep, eee. You go right on characterizing American Jews and their friends as hateful racist hypocrites. You go right on attacking American Jews from the flank.
They’ll remember it, I wager.
Yes, critisims is incitement is it eee?
Was accusing the USA of gutting pregnant women insitement eee? Why do you hate America so much? You’d be a 3rd world country were it not fot the US.
They wouldnt even be a country if it were not for the US.
The dirt on the disgrace that is MEMRI, now eee’s rhetorical bludgeon of choice:
Selective MEMRI
Liar, you claimed the translations were false, not the MEMRI was selective.
Even Whitacker admits that their translations are high quality in the article that you link:
“The gifts are high-quality translations of articles from Arabic newspapers which the institute sends to me by email every few days, entirely free-of-charge.”
Thank you for proving again that you are a pathological liar.
Okay then.
link to arbeiterfotografie.de
Yeah, dig up some radical left loon and declare him more expert than Whitacker who speak perfect Arabic and was in the middle east for years. You are a pathological liar.
I love it how truth in translation and advocacy against the murder of civilians under the pretext of war is now considered “radical left.”
Note that eee doesn’t even oppose the outright slaughter of Arab-speaking civilians. He only claims that his position — that Israel and the US are both slaughtering civilians — is consistent. And he apparently supports it.
You keep complaining that the US needs to stay out of Israeli affairs and yet as your prime example you cite a gaggle of Israelis who are trying to foist propaganda and steer US affairs?
Do you think we’ve forgotten where MEMRI fits in on the spectrum of war mongers that pushed into the occupation of Iraq?
Another blood libel. MEMRI pushed the US into Iraq? Bush did not read US newspapers, you think he watched MEMRI? Your Congress voted almost unanimously to go to war.
Yes, blame Israel for Iraq when it was ONLY YOU that did it. And you are still killing civilians there but you insist on inciting against Israel. Coward, change your own country first.
You know, if you keep abusing the phrase “blood libel” to mean things it can’t reasonably apply to, all you’re going to accomplish is to delegitimize the term and make a lot of honest Jewish people very, very angry at you for weakening their defense against actual anti-Semitism.
eee – Sorry but you are a few cards short of a deck.
That statement is obviously written tongue in cheek, as the author maks abundantly clear in the article that follows.
And further, (and thanks to Sumud for originally providing the link):
From here.
Bring evidence that there is anything wrong with the actual clip or shut up.
No dice. I’ve already demonstrated that MEMRI has an established pattern of lying. I’ve even pointed out that they are doing it for the Israeli government.
Your emperor is wearing no clothes, eee. You’re just proving how deep Israeli hatred is for Arab peoples, that you’re willing to take up Goebbels mantle and fabricate the 21st century analog of the old blood libel tactic.
you haven’t established shit Chaos, you’ve never established shit.
counterpunch and neo-nazi shit is about as shady as it gets.
Three “shits” in one post. I think that may be a record in depravity for you, yonira.
so you agree that the sites you reference are worthless?
I don’t see you attacking eee. He’s the one who cited counterpunch, originally.
MEMRI is an organisation which was co-founded by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in Israeli military spying agency..Not an honest broker by any means!!It’s laughable to think it’s reliable in any way.
link to en.wikipedia.org
“Critics have accused MEMRI of selectivity choosing for translation and dissemination the most extreme views from Arabic and Persian media, which portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, while ignoring moderate views that are often found in the same media outlets.”
Counterpunch and “neo-Nazi” in one breath?!! WOW!!
EEE,
counterpunch is a joke!
You forgot to call him a “faggot” and tell him how shitty he is. Or is that language you reserve for the goyim, yonira?
so you agree that the sites you reference are worthless?
yonira
————————
You’re fighting a losing battle here yonira. It’s hard to defend the point that Counterpunch is “worthless”! Jonathan Cook, a journalist who lives in Israel and who knows what’s going on more than one living in the US, is a regular contributor..Let’s keep some sanity in the discussion, it’s getting REALLY boring in the end!
“counterpunch is a joke!”
————–
Great argument yonira. Thanks!
Chaos, we both know i’ve never called you a faggot, but you are shitty ;)
couldn’t i use the exact same argument to defend MEMRI?
MEMRI’s been caught in a lie. Numerous times. It is made up primarily of Israeli intel officers.
It’s not ad hominem if there is evidence that the information isn’t based on fact. That’s all I’ve ever shown.
Show us the evidence that CounterPunch is propaganda.
counterpunch is made of leftist Israel haters.
I posted links. You don’t even have proper capitalization.
yonira:
The sources on the translation (you should look before hands hit keyboard) are the Guardian and CNN. That you are resorting to hysteria kinda gives away your wonky position.