The divestment debate taking place at Berkeley is creating waves. It is not only helping to build diverse and powerful coalitions on campus, but it is also sparking conversations in places that have, at least to this point, been allergic to BDS. Jerry Haber has an important post over at his blog The Magnes Zionist appealing to liberal Zionists as to why they should give guarded support to the BDS movement. He lists 13 reasons, they are:
1. You already support two of the three central aims of the movement, which are
1. Ending Israel’s occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall;
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality;
Where you may disagree is over:
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.
But note that the phrase “as stipulated in UN resolution 194” weakens the statement since even Israel never rejected 194. And even if you don’t recognize the right of return, you recognize the importance to the Palestinians of claiming that right. And haven’t you have signed petitions with which you are not in complete agreement because you beiieve in the broader goal? There are many people who agree with you here who support the tactics of BDS.
2. You don’t have to sign on to all of BDS.
You don’t like academic boycotts? Good, neither do I. You are nervous about calling for sanctions? Don’t. But what about partial divestment from companies profiting from the Occupation as a symbolic and non-violent act of protest? What about boycotting settler’s wine and other products? How can you be opposed to the Occupation and support the Occupiers.
3. You want to support non-violent Palestinian protest.
BDS is first and foremost a Palestinian action. “If only,” you have said countless times, “there were a Palestinian Gandhi or Nelson Mandella.” Well, the tactics of BDS are the tactics of Gandhi and Mandella. Even if you are apprehensive about the aims of some of the movement, don’t you understand how important it is to support non-violent protest?
4. There is no slippery slope here.
If you support BDS today, you say to yourself, what will happen when it really gets up steam – perhaps you will be hurting Israel? Yet the chances of that happening are nill, and you know it. Who has the power?
5. BDS is becoming effective as a tactic.
In the beginning it wasn’t, and this is what kept me off the BDS wagon for a long time. And I am still not entirely on it. But successes recently have been impressive, both in their own right, and as a morale booster for the Palestinians.
6. If you oppose them you stand with AIPAC and the ZOA
Sure, you may not like the rhetoric of some Palestinians and their allies. But you also don’t like some of the rhetoric of the Jewish rightwingers. So who do you stand with on this one? The human rights folks -- or AIPAC and the Zionist Organization of America? Do you really want to hear the neocons crowing over their victory as they simultaneously demonize your ilk?
7. BDS actually strengthens the hand of the pro-peace camp in Israel.
Israel is very sensitive to its public image. Whenever it is criticized, there are elements in Israeli society that point to Israel’s loss of standing and argue that only a just and peaceful solution will stop the decline. This also answers the objection that it is unfair to single out Israel. And the people who makes this argument are always singling out Israel for preferential treatment.
8. BDS does not materially hurt the average Israelis
I find it odd that many liberal Zionists who call for sanctions against Iran – a regime that is not engaged in the systematic deprivation of human rights to the extent that Israel is engaged – think that a cultural boycott or a divestment from certain American companies will hurt the average Israeli. The effect of the protest is symbolic; the message is what is important.
9. Other tactics have failed repeatedly.
If you genuinely believe in a two-state solution, wouldn’t it be good idea to see if BDS helps end the Occupation? Or are you one of those liberal Zionists who want a two-state solution In theory, but is pretty ineffectual about ending the Occupation.
10. Palestinians should have a little naches (pleasure) after all their suffering and BDS provides them with that.
They don’t have an army. They are not allowed by the world armed resistance. Where else, besides some world organizations, can they score victories?
11. You are appalled at the lies and disinformation of the anti-BDS movement.
The BDS movement does not seek to destroy the state of Israel. BDS is not even anti-Zionist. Stop listening to the Big Lies.
12. Many Jewish and Israeli human rights activists support it.
They are doing your job for you in Israel. They allow you to be hopeful about the state. Shouldn’t you be listening to therm here?
13. You are sick up to here with the news coming out daily from Israel.
Isn’t it about time you gave back a little? There are consequences for their misdeeds.
If you are unconvinced by the reasons above, but uneasy about circling the wagons with the likes of AIPAC, ZOA, Aish ha-Torah, etc. then you have another option: oppose BDS, but don’t be strident about it. Don’t rain on the Palestinian parade.
Sit on the fence and wait, if you must. But don’t fall on the side of AIPAC and ZOA.
Ho-kay! This is gonna be good. We are gonna see some back-pedaling Lance Armstrong can’t match, and some rhetorical moon-walking which puts Micheal Jackson’s best efforts to shame.
Or maybe that’s what Israeli folk-dancing is all about?
Perhaps it is good to repeat to what I said elsewhere at this juncture (seeing it is buried in a massive posting area, and is germane to the topic), I will just make it generic.
With Zionists, it is always the argument of “what is coming – what it might be – what it could turn into – where it might eventually go,” etc. In the meantime for over sixty years there has been ethnic cleansing that the Israelis have committed, house demolitions, killing on a systemic level, wholesale theft, and a veritably fascist government elected by the majority of the people (and totally fascist activity against the Palestinians no matter who has been in government over these many years).
Students act fearful because they are “uncomfortable,” but nothing has happened to them. On the other hand there have been litmus tests applied to teachers, some have been hounded out of positions, there are constant threats from this Zionist community in the states – some have been the target of these activities to the point of numerous death threats. I have been on campuses where there have been nothing but hounding, baseless accusations, that when examined they have been thrown out as spurious. This has been going on for years.
So it is time for you to just can it with your baseless accusations, in light of the fact that the very things you say that “might come – could be a possibility – are just around the corner – what it might turn into,” etc. is just sheer bullshit. Especially in light of what has been dished out against those who wish to champion the cause of the persecuted Palestinians. I hope this is clear, it is painfully obvious, and if you cannot see it nor admit it than you are merely a blind ideologue, who just wants the unacceptable status quo to continue.
If we look historically at the BDS movement in regard to South Africa, did it “turn into something else?” Has it been the cause of the deaths of thousands of white supremacists in the region? No, and some of the same individuals who participated in that movement are also here with this movement. All of the supposed “objections” to this are ridiculous, and are nothing but the big stall and equivocation, while the horrible activity that many say they fear is happening daily to the Palestinians.
VR, that’s a good point you make, one that’s oftentimes has drawn my ire as well, so let’s unbury it.
One of the standard zionist weapons wielded in reply to ANY attempt to fight back against the Israeli occupation juggernaut has been the “what it MAY become”, ie, the “slippery slope” line of argument. Like, it COULD turn on those supposed ‘sleeper” anti-semitic cells, presumably lying dormant, just waiting for a chance. Or, it COULD turn into ‘demonization” or “delegitimization” of israel . Or, it COULD be used as a tool by Israel’s enemies bent on it’s demise.
The idea is that the “COULD” s repeated often enough, will quickly turn into “WOULD”s, thereby making a set of possibilities of different likelihoods into probabilities, at least in the mind of lower information listener and/or those most susceptible to fear.
That’s exactly why the holocaust can never be allowed to fade – it’s too useful as a tool for conjuring the fear that “it COULD happen again – to us”, never mind that atrocious things are already happening to others.
Among the intellectual set – supported by the likes of Wiesel, and sometimes even Chomsky’s persuation, this has been standard operating procedure when arguing against BDS in any form (though Chomsky seems to be weakening): since no one can absolutely guarantee that ‘X’ doesn’t happen, we must not even think of doing ‘Y’, where Y = anything that pressures israel in any way. Richard Witty has been offering for some time now a complete store of stock arguments consisting of variations on this one theme.
The two things that remain invariably untouched by those who so “argue” are that:
1. there are bad things that happen to real people (let’s call them palestinians) right now – and are LIKELY to escalate, ie. not just as some possible hypothetical outcome, and,
2. Israel shows no intention of allowing itself to be diverted from the negative course of action it embarked upon. Again, not a hypothetical but a provable series of events, unfolding daily – in the full light of day.
The cognitive dichotomy juxtaposing hypotheticals, however likely or not, against concrete reality has been an ongoing theme on this blog and others where ardent zionists – or the slightly more cautious “liberal” or “cultural” variety thereof do their finger wagging . I believe that this dichotomy reflects much of the dissonance now tearing up the jewish diaspora community from within.
Its called risk assessment. Those that want good to come out of their actions, not retributions, should incorporate the degree and prospect of that risk.
You don’t have the slightest idea what “risk assessment” is.
Minipulative whining is not the same as “risk assessment”.
Considering the prospects of one’s plans and actions, is risk assessment.
Don’t be dismissive.
If you want to make a better argument, please go ahead, but drop the character assassination.
If I were you Witty, I would drop those maximalist terms like “assassination”, it verges on fascistic.
But just for laughs, how many bullets did I put in you? Any of them fatal? You better check.
I wouldn’t hold my breath on ‘liberal’ zionists seeing the light, Phil.
You gotta travel outside the zionist bunker to become enlightened.
Adam Horowitz wrote this excellent post, Taxi. But I agree, that light-gray type the author’s name is in does not exactly command attention.
MOOSER- Adam wrote the lead in. The article itself was written by Jerry Haber, the non de plum of an orthodox Jewish studies professor.
TAXI- I don’t think it is quite as bleak as you suggest. Remember, prior to the Holocaust, most Jews were non-Zionists. They became Zionists due to the skillful exploitation of the Holocaust by the Zionists. Time moves on and memory fades, in spite of Hollywood’s best efforts. When Israel and Zionism is seen by U.S. Jews as more potentially threatening than over-hyped anti-Semitism, opinions will shift. The Jewish elite support Zionism to the extent that it provides organizational and motivational support for Jewish elite power seeking. When it no longer does, they too will change. Their primary source of power is the U.S. Empire, not Israel.
“MOOSER- Adam wrote the lead in. The article itself was written by Jerry Haber, the non de plum of an orthodox Jewish studies professor.”
Ah-ha! I see! Right you are.
Keith,
The day even one of mondo’s jolly zionists openly declares an earnest ‘change of mind’, is the day I’ll be optimistic about the jewish world community.
They’re a pretty good gauge on where they’re collectively at.
They ain’t nowhere near the needle of equilibrium… yet.
TAXI- I am referring to Jews in general abandoning Zionism. I never suggested that Mondoweiss’ pet Zionists would ever see reason. Perhaps when Hell freezes over, not before.
Maybe the Arabs in Israel would Abandon terrorism first?
“Maybe the Arabs in Israel would Abandon terrorism first?”
I wasn’t aware that there were “arabs” in Israel committing terrorism, please expand on this UNIX.
HAMAS in Gaza, PLO in Ramallah, all over Israel there are terrorists Arab organizations.
Yes there are terroristsdverywhere. They’re called the occupation.
Shingo,
Actually I meant the opposite, unless you mean the Arabs occupying Jewish land?
What makes them terrorists UNIX?
I disagree, Taxi. Minds are changing, and Haber’s post aims at breaking the chains of tribalism and scaremongering that are holding an awful lot of decent Jews back. Berkeley is pivotal in that sense, and both sides understand that.
I don’t know, Shmuel.
Seems that the more light is shed on zionist crimes, the more entrenched zionists behave.
The universalists jews were always forever thus. I don’t believe they’ve only just changed their minds about the I/P conflict.
But I agree, non-jewish minds are changing, yes, but that’s mostly to do with the internet.
Taxi: But I agree, non-jewish minds are changing, yes, but that’s mostly to do with the internet.
As Mooser (God bless him) never tires of reminding us, Jews are human too.
“As Mooser (God bless him) never tires of reminding us, Jews are human too.”
Only more so! Thanks for the brocha, I can use it.
Of course they’re human Shmuel. You sound offended by something, not sure what it is. I apologize and would like you to point out my faults clearly so that I may correct them. I trust your percpective and your advise.
Not offended at all, Taxi. I was just pointing out that the same processes that operate on non-Jews inevitably operate on Jews as well.
OT, the personal story you told was incredibly moving. Your dad is a remarkable man.
Thanks for clarifying and also for your kind words about my dad. He was shell-shocked by the horrible incident and felt partly reponsible for the death of the Palestinian cab driver because he wasn’t supposed to be driving him that day – it was a Monday and the cab drive’s only day off.
I will try and keep an open mind about the jewish community being able to shake off the zionist albatross clinging to their necks within my lifetime – because your voice and your words help me find the patience necessary.
Taxi,
It isn’t right to support PLO terrorists in a time of war. I know exactly what happened that your family was in a group of ultra leftist supporters. That is why they were being monitored during the dinner of the night before where they were planning attacks.
Thanks goodness this Taxi driver was stopped in time.
That being said, we need to focus on importing issues such as building large Jewish communities in Ramallah and Nablus.
Reported for justifying murder. Get this troll out of here.
DON’T SILENCE ME
Just because a terrorists job is being a Taxi driver does not mean it is murder to stop him before he commits an act of terror.
That being said you constantly seek to justify suicide bombings, you should be reported for that
DON’T SILENCE ME
I agree Shmuel,
It’s one thing to troll with intent to disrupt. But to troll with intent to slander and manace should not be tolerated.
I have reported his/her abuse when I’ve come across it and will continue to do so till it’s sayonara for the vicious ones.
I’m not responding to it directly, as i’m trying to practice the ‘patience’ you so inspired in me today.
DON’T SILENCE ME
You seek to silence Jews and Zionist because you don’t agree with them.
1) Step one: Make up an absurd lie about a terrorists Taxi driver being eliminated during the 1967 war
2) Step two: threaten to ban and silence anyone who calls you on your lie.
In any case, I am entitled to my views. If I should be banned for asserting Jewish rights to their land, then you should be banned for espousing the intent to ethnically cleanse Jews from their lands.
DON’T SILENCE ME
No one wants ti silence you UNIX. You are a the best anti Zionist propagnda I asset since Lieberman.
Keep up the good work!0
Reported UNIX also – the “all Palestinians = terrorists” stereotype is every bit as bad as anti-semitism, even uglier when it practised by those same people so sensitive about anti-semitism.
Funny how crazy some people get when you ignore them.
So then I shall report anyone on this website that say all settlers are terrorists.
Sumud some questions for you, I can report you on the answers
1) Do you support forcefully removing Jews from Hebron and Jerusalem
2) Do you support the dismantlement of HAMAS
3) Do you support the status quo where it is illegal for Jews to pray on the temple mount?
Please answer and I will report you for your answers.
Also Sumud, you can only report people for what they actually say, you can’t just make something up and then report that.
DON’T SILENCE ME
———-
Ha ha! Please forgive me for thinking you’re an appointed Giyus troll, UNIX. You’re nothing like that, poor baby!! You’re just a classic, textbook case of Delirium Tremens..Batshit nuts, my friend!!
Kinda odd UNIX how you have reported me on my answers before I answered but anyway… i see it’s been a tough day for you.
1. I’ve no objection to settlers staying in the OPTs if they wish to become Palestinian citizens -that’s the Palestinian position also. Of course if they refuse to register for P citizenship then they’re illegal aliens and need to be deported.
2,. Hamas are more than the al-Qassam Brigades they’re also a socio-political organisation that are reportedly uncorruyptable (in contrast to Hamas) and good at providing education, medical, social services etc. So no. Like the pre-state jewish terrorist organisations in 1948 the militant groups should be rolled into a Palestinian state army. And I *wish* Hamas had more advanced arms in order they could actually target their weapons instead of just firing in the general direction. Wouldn’t that please you too? That way when civilians were killed we’d know it was deliberate, as we do with israel.
3. No. The holy sites need to be administered by an international party. No more excavations under, no more tunnels, and no more threats/attempts to blow up Al-Aqsa.
Since you’ve already reported me ~ what next? Trolls come and they go. They aren’t steadfast UNIX.
>> (in contrast to Fatah) I meant
Shmuel,
what do you think of the Khazar debate which we had early, what is your opinion?
Yonira,
I’m not emtionally invested in this debate. I am an Ashkenazi Jew, raised in a particular culture/civilisation, and it makes no difference to me whether I am the genetic descendant of Palestinian Jews or Turkic Khazar converts or some combination of the two. In terms of calling Ashkenazi Jews “Khazars” in order to cast aspersions on their “claim” to Palestine, I don’t believe such a claim exists in the first place – whether our “bloodline” can be traced back to the Hasmoneans or to some yurt on the Steppes. I’m reading Sand now, and whether I find his argument compelling or not in that regard makes no difference to me whatsoever, beyond curiosity.
On a side note, Italian Jews are probably one of the few Jewish communities with probable blood ties to the Jews of Judea (evidenced eg. by 5th-6th-century inscriptions in the south of Italy, written in excellent Palestinian Aramaic), but I don’t believe they have any more right to displace or dominate non-Jewish Palestinians than Ashkenazim do.
“I wouldn’t hold my breath on ‘liberal’ zionists seeing the light, Phil.”
So true. Phil and Adam make a living out of being anti Zionists. It looks like they will never be out of work.
You’re just itching to bomb more Middle Eastern civilians, aren’t you, Mr. Neocon?
Don’t worry, VR, our pals should get here just after their morning ziocaine injection, and tell us that BDS is the obvious precursor to concentration camps and gas chambers, and they can’t support it, any of it.
Can’t wait to see what Witty has to say, the post seems almost directed at him.
After that 300+ comments thread in which all the trolls went nuts, I’m gonna start ending my prayers with “and thank You, God, for not making me a Zionist”
Ultimately, reconciliation will happen voluntarily.
The apparent goal of liberal BDS advocates like Naomi Klein and Magnes Zionist, are that the BDS campaign will communicate the world’s and large portion of Jewish community’s displeasure with Israeli policies and practices, motivating reform, accountability.
The danger, and it is a real danger for moralists (those that would sign on to BDS), is that the campaign will devolve and already has in significant ways to orchestrated and racially defined isolation and shunning.
The question is specific as Jerry referred. The question of the Berkeley resolution is distinct from the Toronto declaration, which is distinct from Naomi Klein’s advocacy of broader cultural boycott two days before the Toronto.
Those of us that have seen idealistic movements go south, have seen the possibilities of them going south early, but continued supportive neverthess. We’re wary.
Absent obvious and consistent attention to the risks, stated overtly, we more than worry, we predict, especially as a common theme of the BDS movement is to defer to the Palestinian vanguard that “leads” their movement. In this case, that includes Hamas, former Al Aqsa Martyrs, others. It is wonderful that they have renounced violence on civilians as their means, to the extent that they have, hopefully permanently.
Hearing Norman Finkelstein defend Hamas and Hezbollah publicly and in private correspondence, dissipates my confidence in the leadership of BDS. I acknowledge that Hamas has voices that are moderate, dedicated to the well-being of their community, more than to the abuse of the Israeli. But, they also have voices that do value the abuse to Israelis as more important, more than defending their own community.
My contention, my commitment, is to the importance of humanizing the other. When BDS proponents say, “it is irrelevant whether I think of Israelis as human beings”, I am NOT convinced, not confident. We are then working for opposing goals, not opposing as in supporting the occupation vs objecting to the occupation, but opposing goals as in seeking peace to seeking harm.
Also, when advocates for BDS prominently propose Palestinian nationalist oriented single-state goals, my and others confidence is greatly reduced.
If the work is to humanize the other, than integration, communication, is the relevant means.
If you and others and unsatisfied, rationally, with the degree of that effort, and its effectiveness to influence Israeli and other policy, that is a valid criticism. But, so long as BDS contain isolation as its means, it is the opposite of the effort that I conclude is needed.
“Ultimately, reconciliation will happen voluntarily.”
What time is ‘ultimtely’ exactly? In year 3010 perhaps? And you actually still believe that Israeli policy gives a hoot about reconciliation?
The idea behind BDS was born precisely because Israel cares not for peace but for more domination of neighboring land. Their pattern of bad faith behavior is well documented.
“Ultimately, reconciliation will happen voluntarily”
Sure RW, douse yourself with water on a clear day and stand in the puddle, wait for lightening to strike. All of your statements are nothing but stall and equivocation while atrocities mount. The privileged and enfranchised have NEVER moved at their own compunction, NEVER has historically happened without pressure – so you should be waiting until you pass, than again that is your plan – this is the only conclusion I can come to.
“Voluntarily”
That word “voluntarily”? I don’t think you know what it means. Isn’t that how you describe the Palestinians leaving, “voluntarily”?
And Witty, I gotta really say I’m disappointed in you! If God His Very Own Self gave me and my people a land, I wouldn’t give up a groats-worth of it “voluntarily”. I would die fighting for it! In fact, I might even (I know, I know, I’m a fanatic) actually go there!
“Ultimately, reconciliation will happen voluntarily.”
Revoncilliation will only happen after political settlement.
Two years maybe, according to Fayyad’s time line.
You imagine what Israel cares for. Like every democracy there are a wide variety of perspectives, some persecutorial, some indifferent, some sympathetic to Palestinian well-being, some committed to it.
Even after BDS is “successful”, and Israel feels the communication from the world, it will still be it negotiating with Fatah and/or Hamas.
There is no chasing them out. Thankfully.
The most that you as a dissenter can do is to enhance that likelihood that Israel will hear. That is the big question, what enhances Israel’s ability to hear the two components of the message:
1. Palestinians are competent human beings capable of running a state that is capable of being a healthy good neighbor.
2. The current status is an injustice.
Two components to the message if it is to be successful.
Shorter Witty: I bet we can get away with it.
See, I told you about ziocaine amnesia! Witty can’t remember anything he said yesterday.
What happened to “maximalist” and “facistic” and all that?
“Even after BDS is “successful”, and Israel feels the communication from the world, it will still be it negotiating with Fatah and/or Hamas.”
Still be negotiating with Hamas? When hasIsrael ever agreed to negotiating with Hamas
Haber’s position seems to be: BDS – it can’t hurt.
OK, but what effective good can it be? It makes the Palestinians feel good. Fine.
It makes bad PR for Israel. OK.
But if one argument in its favor is that it doesn’t hurt Israel, then what good can it do? The only effective way to drag Israel to justice is to hurt them, to hurt them in a very material way.
Israel now figures it can get along just fine without peace because things are “calm” now, there is no terrorism, no suicide attacks. This gives them no incentive to make any concessions.
BDS won’t hurt – and that’s the problem.
In contrast to your intent.
Richard, people are allowed to want to hurt states. They can want them dismantled, even encourage making war on them. Why any Zionist thought that hi-jacking Judaism as a human shield for Zionism would work, but it doesn’t.
As a matter of fact, the case against Israel, or the case for Israel to make large concessions, can be adequately made, more than adequately made, without ever mentioning the word “Jews” or “Muslims”. We could just call them “Group A” and “Group B” and the situation would not change.
“Why any Zionist thought that hi-jacking Judaism as a human shield for Zionism would work, but it doesn’t.”
The Zionists have broken my syntax! Ouch!
Good,
So don’t pretend that the scope of BDS is to correct policies and practices. Note publicly that the objective of BDS is revolution, regime change (of course stated in opposition to external agitation for regime change).
How are you different than neo-conservatives?
“How are you different than neo-conservatives?”
Thanks, Richard! As I remember, the neo-conservatives were very sucessfull at getting what they wanted. And it’s always a pleasure to be compared to a group which included so many smart, prominent Jews!
The neo-conservatives were armchair militarists that sought regime change, first through boycott and isolation, then through armed intervention.
If you seek regime change, please say so overtly. And, if you are representative, or supportive of BDS, then say that as well.
Clearly and honestly. If you wish to correct or clarify prior posts, please do so as well.
What on earth makes you think I have to reveal what I want to you? Or any of us, for that matter?
One thing that always astounds me is that Zionists, who kvetch constantly about how the whole world is against them, immediately, at the drop of a yarmulke take on the role of the commissar, the enforcer, and moral arbiter.
Witty, as a well-known and very obscure 16th Century Jewish philosopher once said: “Zolst zein vi a lomp-am tug sollst di hangen, in der nacht sollst di brennen !”
Your integrity as a human being, as a political advocate that is any more than a manipulative propagandist.
Rhetorical human shields – what a fantastic way to describe the conflation of a particular state form with a group of people, and therefore of systemic change with ethnic cleansing or even genocide – as in the fuzzy-brained Zionist cliches of “right to exist” and “the destruction of Israel”.
If what they mean is “ethnic cleansing” or “genocide”, then why not say so in clear terms? Because of course smart Zionists know that no person of consequence really advocates doing those things – to Jews at least. (There are plenty of prominent advocates for the ethnic cleansing of Arabs.) The trick subconsciously transforms an eminently humane position (like a single state based on democracy, civic equality and coexistence) to one that is inhumane. Like implying that ANC leaders supported ethnic cleansing because they did not accept apartheid South Africa’s “right to exist” as an Afrikaner state, and weren’t happy with their right to “self-govern” (within constraints) in arbitrary bantustans.
Anyway, thanks to Mooser for coming up with such an apt phrasing.
I want to make Israel hurt so bad it screams Uncle!
“Uncle Sam, give me peace!”
BDS won’t hurt – and that’s the problem.
That’s not true, potsherd. BDS will hurt. But not in the violent sense. It will hurt Israel’s image. It will shatters its stronghold on the American public, and much of the Western world. The romanticized notion of the “only democracy in the Middle East,” will come undone.
The process has already started. More and more people are opening their eyes to the reality of the conflict, not the talking points they have been fed by the MSM.
Economically, Israel, like any other country on the receiving end of the BDS, is going to experience the boycott. But it is going to be significant to impact policy change? Perhaps not. There is no one thing which will, but one aspect of it is guaranteed to make the Israeli status quo anxious.
Israel is absolutely obsessed with its image. It does not only want to slaughter “the terrorists in Gaza,” but it also wants to come out of it looking the good guy. The latter is a very important part of the equation, for Israeli policy is built on a large part on aggressiveness, bullying and threatening posture, that the state trumpets by thumping its military prowess at enemies.
What Israel fears is a loss of that very image, the loss of the very feeble but still largely ingrained idea of a peace-loving Israel so brutally victimized by Arabs that want to push it into the sea every second.
When that curtain is lifted, there will be progress.
So what it all adds up to Richard, is that you cannot support any facet of BDS, right?
Would you be kind enough to answer that in words even a poor Jew like me can understand?
I Support NO aspect of BDS, it is immoral, and anti-Jewish.
All of you so called moralists need to look in the mirror. Boycott the Arabs in Israel and then maybe you can be equal.
As far as RW, it is the same blah, blah, blah – he is waiting for the magic and the miracle, in other words, he is full of it.
UNIX however is clearly antisemitic, like he has been at other sites with an alternate moniker. This is the image that he wishes to support of the Jewish community (and RW by default and others by extension) –
TO GET BY
I’m waiting for those that say that they are committed to the upliftment of Palestinians, to do the real work that will accomplish that.
BDS might, and might not.
BDS might do no harm, or it might do serious harm.
The Palestinians don’t need to be uplifted, and that’s not the job of others peoples. What they need is the Zionist jackboot off their necks.
I’m waiting for those THAT say THAT they are committed to the upliftment of Palestinians, to do the real work THAT will accomplish THAT.
———–
THAT abuse alert!
“upliftment”
——-
Witty, I hereby declare you the creator of a new language. My suggestion is to call it “Englisch”
“Boycott the Arabs in Israel and then maybe you can be equal.”
Well said, UNIX! You are indeed among the righteous, and a bold spokesman for Zionism! Keep it up. Don’t let Witty dilute your true-Torah, real-Jew positions!
Thank you Mooser I appreciate the sentiment. The fact is we can’t be talking about boycotting Jews and then leave out Arabs! Also the same goes for expulsion, if it’s ok to expel Jews from Hebron then it’s ok to expel Arabs in Jerusalem.
And so it goes, this is equality.
UNIX, are you really this stupid? I’m ready to put in with those who contend you are only out to make Zionists look as stupid and mean as possible.
Mooser,
I am not sure what you mean. Surely if it is ok to expel Jews from their homes, at potsherd said “one step ahead of the bulldozers if they step quickly”
Then the same holds for Arabs in Jewish areas. No?
My God, a Jew who can’t recognise sarcasm! What is this world coming to? These must truly be the End Times.
Oh you were lying ok.
Either way, we have to be equal in our approach.
He (UNIX) is “desperately” Jewish Mooser, can’t you see? lol
“Then the same holds for Arabs in Jewish areas.”
Then the same holds for Jews in German areas.
Then the same holds for Jews in Christian areas.
Then the same holds for Jews in American areas.
Then the same holds for Jews in “white” areas.
Then the same holds for Jews in Western European areas.
It’s the end times for zionism.
Fine with me, it’s about equality. If Jews can be expelled from Hebron then Jews can be expelled from anywhere.
Ethnic cleansing is wrong and immoral, we should not advocate it.
In my view if people advocate the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Jewish land then I am perfectly within my rights to promote the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from Jewish land in Gaza, Ramallah, and Hebron.
Gotta keep dem Jews in the Jewish land…hehehe
Exactly VR, and that is the goal of this website, If I am not mistaken most commenters here propose the expulsion of Jews from Hebron and Jerusalem to be relocated to what the commenters consider Jewish land.
“Either way, we have to be equal in our approach”
Right you are, Mr. Open-Sore programming, right you are, and in the spirit of equality, I support the right of people everywhere to remove Jews from their “areas”.
But let ‘em try, goddammit! When you consider the, oh, 15 million Jews against the world’s 6,670,030,277 other people, how can we lose?
Jews will prevail not because of numbers.
One may ask why a few million of Jews have prevailed in their own land the past 60 years.
Nobody should be talking about
1) anti-semitic khazar theories
2) expelling Jews and ethnic cleansing from Hebron
3) Destroying Jewish homes
4) Not acting to free Gilad Shalit
These are moralistic red lines
UNIX, you have no arguments with me! Look at Witty’s posts, and you will see a man who wants to allow Arabs to encroach on Jewish land! You should warn him about the danger involved in not purifying Jewish land, immediately!
Well Mooser,
I asked Richard and he said that he is NOT in favor of expelling Jews from Jerusalem and Hebron. I’m really cool with that and I appreciate his views on the matter.
Yes, I know “UNIX” you have been very careful to groom your false persona. Clever fellow, after all you want to stick around here, and you will probably not make as deeply racist comments about the “Arabs” as you have elsewhere, walk that line “Jewish” uber alles.
So you support “2. Full equal civil and legal rights for minorities within Israel (and Palestine).”
Good for you!
“I asked Richard”
You called him on the zio-phone? You e-mailed him? When did this asking take place?
“One may ask why a few million of Jews have prevailed in their own land the past 60 years.”
So you figure God has gotten over that little Golden Calf contremps and forgotten all about “whoring after false Gods” and “adultery”? We’re back in good again? All chosen, and riding into Jerusalem on red heifers?
To think that an entire era in Jewish history, the Diaspora, came to an end by God’s command, and I didn’t notice. Darn, I have got to get up earlier.
I asked him on this forum.
Either way, there will not be peace until the ultra-radical leftists and maximalists on this forum understand that Jews cannot be expelled from their land.
Ethnic cleansing is wrong no matter how you slice it.
I would remove the rape part. In any case, Jews have prevailed and are right to massively colonize and settle their own land which includes Jerusalem, Ramallah, Hebron, and Gaza.
VR, if a man says he is Jewish, I accept him at his word. As far as I know, self-identifying as a Jew can be tantamount to a death sentence. If he is brave enough to say he is Jewish and take his chances, why, I believe him.
After all, I have no way of proving he is not. And I resent the idea that someone would say they were Jewish to gain social or other advantage. The very idea!
Unix, Ilan Pappe’s “The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” cites multiple cases of rape by Jews.
Really, how do you experct people to like Jews if your attitude and behavior is so evil.
You guys go around murdering, stealing, and raping and you have the audacity to justify it. And now you wonder about about Anti-Semitism?
Thanks but no thanks, I wouldn’t touch pappes work with a ten foot pole
Just another justification of anti-semitism on this forum. Nothing new.
UNIX- Unfortunately, rape appears to be standard procedure in war, and the Jewish troops ethnically cleansing the Palestinians during the Nakba engaged in this deplorable tradition.
Gosh, UNIX, could you tell me what this “maximalist” slur you have picked up from Witty means? And what it means in this context?
Cases of rape are different than policy.
In contrast to Hamas which only murders.
In contrast to Hamas which only murders.
Is that a joke ?
When it comes to murder the state of Israeli has a monopoly.
And never mind the fact that Hamas has officially come out repeatedly endorsing the 67 borders as a basis for a full peace for several years.
Something Israel has yet to do and seems completely against.
Also never mind the fact that even the spiritual founder of Hamas has nothing against Jews or living with Jews in peace:
link to youtube.com
Seriously, take your propaganda viewpoints elsewhere.
Anytime you post a lie it will be repudiated.
“VR, if a man says he is Jewish, I accept him at his word.”
Mooser
—————
Mooser
UNIX did NOT say he’s Jewish. He refused twice to answer this question! He even alluded to the fact that he may not be living in Israel..
“I wouldn’t touch pappes work with a ten foot pole ”
————-
Benny Morris on rape cases: Haaretz interview:
The system doesn’t allow me to post the rest where the rape cases are documented by B. Morris. Anyway here’s the link:
link to counterpunch.org
Mooser, I also suggested before that UNIX is most likely a christian zionist. The MO is typical for this, or as OJ’s lawyer said, “If the glove fits, you can’t acquit”.
Proof is in the pudding – he doesn’t get sarcasm or irony and fails to process any humor whatsoever. Grim, just too grim for a proper Jew….
I support the goals of:
1. Self-governance for Palestinians by mutual consent with the green line as basis
2. Full equal civil and legal rights for minorities within Israel (and Palestine).
3. Right of displaced Palestinians to make their claims for restitution and/or citizenship in Israel (but not the maximalist right of return for descendants, and certainly not for the vague “anyone who is a Palestinian can live in Israel, and take back “their” property”.
I oppose the means of BDS because of its fairly extreme intervention in currently varied and intimate relations between Israelis, Europeans, Americans, along ethnic lines.
In particular, the academic and cultural boycott amount to the institutional monopoly for propaganda, prohibiting the reasoned balanced and complete discussion of ideas, policies, etc.
“I support the goals of:”
Pure evasion, as usual.
Gosh, Witty, if you support all those wonderful things, why is it you can never even raise a whisper against the ideas which come from UNIX, or “EEE” or Julian.
It’s a stupid pet trick, Witty, You sit there and drink your ghee and talk about what you support, but you will very happily let the Zionist extremists carry out the actions. You aren’t even brave enough to protest against them on a comments thread.
But of course, those who might rein in Israel’s murderous intransigence? Well, even their “intent” is murderous! Or “fascist” or “maxillary”
I whole-heartedly agree with RW and it makes me cringe whenever UNIX or EEE says anything about settling ‘all of Israel.’
I would even go farther than RW and support a boycott of companies which benefit from the occupation.
Yonira,
You do know that Jews have title to many homes in Hebron and Jerusalem?
Are you in favor of expelling Jews and ethnically cleansing Jews from Judea and Samaria?
“and it makes me cringe”
Ziocaine may have destroyed your memory of what you said yesterday, but not ours.
Anyway, while you are oh-so-delicately cringing, you’ll let the fanatics and extremeists do the work for you, and then accept the “facts on the ground”
And can you really expect me to believe you don’t adopt a much more conciliatory attitude here than you do in speaking with your gang? C’mon, Yoni. I grew up with Zionists
No idea what you are babbling about. Mooser you are getting pretty hard to understand lately, I don’t know if you are just trying extra hard to be witty or you’re hitting the bottle and/or crack rock again. Either way I wish you the best.
yonira,
Mooser’s refering to your professed perfect alignmet with unix on yesterday’s postings – you know the thread :-)
A few of us were surprised that you had that momentary lapse of reason.
Taxi you are not making sense,
Rather than support terrorist doubling as Taxi drivers you can add something substantive to the conversation.
Oh yeah? what did I say? I didn’t like the Khazar thing, other than that I don’t like much of what he/she says about a ‘unified’ Israel and that Hebron, Gaza, EJ, mumbo jumbo. It still makes me cringe. I know plenty of ppl like him and they do nothing to promote what I believe in and what is just for all parties.
Yonira,
Do you think that Jews should be expelled by force from their homes in Hebron?
Most Jews in Hebron are there for religious reasons, not because they are Zionists. They can have the option of being Palestinian citizens in a Palestinian state or they can leave.
Do you think that those Jews should be forcefully expelled and their homes destroyed? Simple question.
Do you think that those Jews should be forcefully expelled and their homes destroyed? Simple question.
—————-
Forcefully expelled yes, absolutely! “Homes destroyed” no because Palestinians need them. tens of thousands of their homes were destroyed!
1. Self-governance for Palestinians by mutual consent with the green line as basis
As of now, every single mainstream Palestinian group from Fatah to Hamas has agreed to this solution in full. Imagine that, even Hamas the most extreme of the mainstream Palestinian factions has agreed to a full peace with Israel in which they would receive less than 1/5 of their historic homeland (and this is with virtually zero official negotiations).
So whats stopping this from happening? Israel.
2. Full equal civil and legal rights for minorities within Israel (and Palestine).
And how do you propose we get there? Should we just wait for the Israelis to implement legal equality at their own whim? Did Martin Luther King Jr. wait for Bull Conner to give Blacks equality?
3. Right of displaced Palestinians to make their claims for restitution and/or citizenship in Israel (but not the maximalist right of return for descendants, and certainly not for the vague “anyone who is a Palestinian can live in Israel, and take back “their” property”.
Under international law Palestinians have the right to return to their homes – this is not disputed nor a point of negotiation.
Nonetheless, a Palestinian most likely cannot return to his home and evict a Jewish family from their home. However, international law does stipulate that a refugee can return and build a new home near his original home if his previous home is currently occupied (still unfair to the Palestinians but this is where realism comes into play).
If Israel wants to maintain its Jewish demographic majority in a manner that is consistent with international law, the only thing it can do is negotiate a settlement with each and every single refugee, or more realistically help create a forum (with the Palestinian refugees) that would elect a spokesmen to speak on their behalf.
Mahmoud Abbas and Salam Fayyad have no right to throw away the right of return. Remember, 1948 is where the problem began, and only by addressing the issues of 1948 can a just and lasting peace come about.
If you really care about the well being of Israel and the people that live there you should be addressing the “issues” that have kept this conflict going for 60+ years now.
Is the following one effect of the bds campaign?
link to huffingtonpost.com
…
Britain’s Advertising Standards Authority nixed an ad sponsored by Israel’s tourist agency after it received a complaint that the photograph featured the Western Wall in East Jerusalem, according to ASA’s Web site.
The complainant “challenged whether the ad misleadingly implied that East Jerusalem was part of the State of Israel,” the ASA said.
…
Consciousness raising.
Les,
Try this one out for size:
link to current.com
Of course, should someone actually donate to the crying child, they would be arrested for supporting terrorism.
Potsherd supports bulldozing Jewish homes and Jews themselves if they don’t “step quickly”
Thanks Les. I posted it on here:
link to angryarabscommentsection.blogspot.com
“The BDS movement does not seek to destroy the state of Israel. BDS is not even anti-Zionist. Stop listening to the Big Lies.”
Instead of listening to anybody, just read the comments on this blog and figure out for yourself if the BDS movement is not anti-Zionist. The BDS movement and anti-Zionism are one and the same.
“The BDS movement and anti-Zionism are one and the same. “‘
Only becasue Zionism was we know it stands for racism, human rights abuses and criminality. So yes, we are anti racist and anti crime and anti human rights abuses.
Hey eee. What are you doing here? Shouldn’t you be making Israel more “respectable” by destroying some Arab quarters right now?
eee is right, we should be fully supporting zionism rather than BSD
Can you really be this stupid? I don’t believe you’re this stupid!
Look UNIX, if you are Jewish, what’s your serial number? Which temple are you registered at? Do you have your certificate? The day I got my certificate and serial number as a Jew was the proudest day opf my life! I carry that certificate with me everywhere, and I know my serial number by heart. 017740-42001-B, and proud of it! Where’s your’s?
I think you are certifiably insane, days are long over where Jews need numbers, tattoos, serials, etc.
In any case we should be supporting massive settlement of Jews in Israel, not opposing it.
As a matter of strategy, on which this article seems to focus, I believe otherwise.
While it may seem advantageous at first to co-opt self-styled “liberal Zionists” in the struggle for basic rights and equality, in the long run this strategy is bound to fail.
When Obama took office, he had the full pledged support of democrats, liberals and progressives. In an effort to bridge the divide between Republicans and Democrats in Congress, he sought to reach across the isle, as it were. What he hoped for was a coalition of Republicans and Democrats who will be his base of support for health reform and other policies he sought to implement. But, in doing so, he found himself making one concession after another. Soon, his approval ratings among democrats started to fall, sharply. He was alienating his base and losing their support. By attempting to please everyone, he ended up pleasing no one.
While the universal ideal of finding common ground and shared goals can work between two rivals, one should always keep in mind that it is a goal, not a means. That is to say that conciliation between Israelis and Palestinians may be the ultimate goal, but if conciliation is used as a means to secure equality and basic rights for Palestinians, then it will fail.
This is not the time to give legitimacy to Zionists, whether liberal or radical. This is the time to focus on the goal, not the participants, and if that goal requires marginalizing Zionists, that’s fine.
A nice example showing that BDS supporters are by and large also anti-Zionists.
Whats your point?
Many BDS supporters are in fact anti-Zionist, many are ambivalent on Zionism, while many are in fact Zionists.
“A nice example showing that BDS supporters are by and large also anti-Zionists”
Is there a law against being anti-Zionist? You are the one insisting Israel cannot exist unless it is able to commit any intransigence, and the slightest compromise or reparation means Israel’s demise.
Why, I would think you would be happy to know that there are people who believe Israel can exist in peace, within a framework of legality and normal relations. But you are not, and you call them anti-Zionist.
If it’s any comfort, eee, I think you will be successful beyond your wildest dreams! By the time you get done, the entire world will be convinced Israel cannot exist in any other state than one of complete intransigence. You’ll show ‘em!
What’s wrong with being anti-Zionist? A more accurate term is actually “Post Zionist”. Post Zionists are people who understand that in the 21st century, old and radical ideologies – like Zionism – have no place.
There is nothing good about an ideology that seeks to take over an entire people’s homeland and turn it into an ethnically pure one.
There is no law against being anti-Zionists. But why fool liberal American Jews as Horowitz is trying to do? The BDS movement denies the Jews the right to self determination and to their own state.
In the US or Israel?
Just a few weeks ago, an Israeli prosecutor cited two activists’ “anti-Zionist” statements as evidence of their guilt in violating state laws. Mondoweiss covered it, as did Didi Remez on his website. But, I digress.
Why are you avoiding answering the question regarding the goals of Zionism?
American Jews, in general, are liberal regarding domestic social policy. In matters concerning Israel, however, they tend to be radical.
It’s one thing to support self-determination for a people, in this case – as you allege is necessary – Jews, and quite another to support Zionism, an ideology that is criminal and immoral in its very nature, as it seeks the ethnic cleansing of another peoples.
How does the BDS movement deny Jews the right to self-determination?
In fact, the BDS movement affirms the universal right to self-determination. What they are saying, however, is that self-determination should not impinge on other people’s right to self-determination. That is the very essence of equality.
So far, the arguments you have put forth have been couched in favoritism toward Zionists, while concern for Jewish Americans seems to be useful only when the vilification of Adam or Phil is convenient.
Israel may describe itself as a Jewish state, but in fact, it is not a Jewish state. It is a Zionist state. Not all Jews support it. Not all Jews believe that a “Jewish” state is necessary, much in the same way that Christians or Muslims have not established religion-based states in the modern era.
Note that I’m not referring to a form of governance, e.g. theocracy.
I am referring to the establishment of a state for the sole purpose of actualizing a religious group’s “right” to self-determination. That is the very problematic nature of Zionism.
Your ideology is convoluted and trips on itself. On one side you say you are not denying the Jews the right of self determination. On the other hand, you will not accept the Jews are a nation. But isn’t that respecting self determination? Israel is a Jewish state, because it is the state of the Jewish nation. No one is forcing you to be part of this nation, but you cannot deny the majority of Jews who identify themselves as a nation this right. Zionism is a secular movement. It is a nationalistic movement, not a religious one. Again I am an atheist Jew.
The very essence of equality means that Jews deserve a state. The world has given us just one option where to establish it. Anywhere the Jews would have established their state would have been problematic. But history proves that even a problematic Jewish state is better than no Jewish state.
I am going to sleep this memorial day after having honored my friends and all Israelis who gave their lives for Israel. Tomorrow evening will be Israel’s 62 birthday. I cannot be more proud of my country and what it has achieved in such a short time.
Idiot, with your “self-determination”
Saying we seek to deny the Jews “self-determination” is like a habitual shoplifter protesting on arrest: “I have the right to earn a living”. Or a murderer saying: “But Judge, my wife needed killing!”
Jews have the right to self determination in their aboriginal homeland of Israel.
“The BDS movement denies the Jews the right to self determination and to their own state.”
How exactly?
“aboriginal”
Either you don’t know what that word means, or you are lying. Not even Zionists claim Jews are “aboriginal” to Palestine. Not even the Bible claims that.
But I guess you saw the word “original” in there, so it seemed like a good one.
Israel is Jewish land, Jewish rule in Israel far predates Arab colonization. There are two themes in this comments section
1) Deny Jews their rights to their land by using anti-semitic Khazar theories
2) Call Arabs the real descendants of Jews
A sort of sick replacement theology that should be reported at any chance possible
” It is a nationalistic movement, not a religious one.”
Okay then, we don’t have to feel any qualms about anti-Semitism! It’s got nothing at all to do with Jews, it’s just the actions of the Israeli regime. It won’t hurt the Jews, or the Jewish religion, a bit, to get rid of that.
And BTW, what on earth has Israel “acheived”? Jews are in more danger there than anywhere else, they have fewer rights there than anywhere else (hell, at least I, an American Jew, can decide whether or not I wish to join the Army).
And you know what else? As a Jew in America, I do not have to support any bigoted policies or murderous actions because I am a Jew.
Israel has “acheived” nothing. In fact, it has set the Jewish people, by using their troubles to hoax and defraud them, back hundreds of years.
Oh, Israel does have one acheivment, as Adam noted: it gives a superflous class, the shtadlanim a sinecure.
Funny though, isn’t it? Wherever Jews have civil rights and even the slightest bit of social acceptance, they feel absolutely no compulsion to live in ghettoes of their own making. Now, why would that be? Wouldn’t people of the same nation want to be ruled by their own?
eee,
Please address the thrust of my previous post. You seem to have picked on one small point and turned it into something that it isn’t.
First, you deny that Israel seeks self-determination for Zionists. If it were concerned with self-determination for Jews, it would have tolerated all Jews, including those who oppose Zionism.
Second, you seem to use the term “self-determination” interchangeably for Jews and Zionists, when in essence the two are different.
In fairness to you, I’ll await your response on how the Palestinians fit into your definition of self-determination for Jews.
As for BDS, it is a non-violent movement which merely seeks to end the occupation and pressure Israel to treat the Palestinians in accordance with international law.
Are you threatened by international law? Are you threatened by the notion of equality with Palestinians?
These are questions which you seem to repeatedly avoid answering. Your honest answers to these questions could contribute immensely to this discussion.
“A sort of sick replacement theology that should be reported at any chance possible
That’s the terrible toll anti-Semitism takes on Jews! They feel like there’s no one who will listen, no one they can report their persecution to and get redress.
(Only those who have power feel like there is always someone they can “report” tramsgressions to)
Either way my post is accurate. Anti-semites like you won’t last! Watch as Jerusalem is build massively before your very eyes. Watch and weep :)
eee, just don’t forget to honor this memorial day the many equally brave Palestinians who also gave their lives for their country. And maybe spare a thought for the 10′s of 1000′s of civilian ‘casualties’ killed sometimes deliberately, sometimes collaterally – just so you can honor YOUR friends.
Seeing how the Palestinian losses are swept away by the zionist juggernaut – the world is stepping in, little by little, to commemorate the price palestinian people had to pay – in life, property and liberty – and go on paying as we speak. All so the jews of israel can go on bragging about hollow “military” victories, which history has rendered pyrric.
Enjoy your sleep eee, for tomorrow is the day of the second shoah – also known as the Nakba. But lieberman has decreed that no mourning be done, and no tears be shed for thosesent into exile, there to cry on the rivers of Jordan and the Litani and babylon – and in the streets of old jerusalem, where the slow genocide of memory marches on. And so the oppressed of the west bank will be subject to the usual lock down as you dance on their graves.
And as you keep on dancing – just know that much of the world thinks your celebration of death ghoulish and your commemoration rituals quite boorish.
‘And BTW, what on earth has Israel “acheived”? ”
Cherry tomatoes?
I have reported the above comment for honoring terrorists from HAMAS and PLO.
Yeah, call attention to yourself in your constant encouraging that Israelis wage pogroms on the real natives of the West Bank. Kicked any Palestinians yourself, lately, UNIX? Do you bring the kids along and show them how its done?
Correction, Jews are the real natives of Judea and Samaria.
The only people that anyone talks about committing pogroms against on this site are Jews.
I shall quote potsherd for reference They will be one step ahead of the bulldozers if the step quickly
On march 11th of this year, Netanyahu and Livni each gave a speech in the Knesset commemorating the “sacrifices” made by those who were sent to the gallows by the British government. At the time, members of Lehi had assassinated a British ambassador to the Middle East and sprayed Arab buses with bullets, terrorizing entire villages. So, while Israel honors terrorists, she and its partners in crime are criticizing the Palestinians for their honoring of terrorists.
One should either set one standard for the applicability of the “terrorist” label and abide by it, or not use the word at all.
Do you honor Lehi terrorists or do you consider them criminals in the same way you consider Hamas and (PLO?) to be criminals?
Incidentally, I find it strange that you included the PLO seeing as Israel signed the Oslo accords with the PLO. Are you implying that you will always consider the PLO to be terrorists?
If you do, then do you consider Menachem Begin to be a terrorist too? He was, after all, a key leader of the same terrorist group that blew up the King David hotel, among other acts of terrorism.
Avi,
Do answer your question, I will always consider the PLO, Fatah, the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, etc, as terrorists.
Your own status as a terrorist rather makes your opinion rather suspect and not worth very much, UNIX.
What a weird comment, in any case Jews can plant and remove trees where they wish in Judea, Ramallah, etc, since it is Jewish land.
I find it curious that no Israeli archeologist has ever found any artifacts to support that claim. In fact, Israeli archeologists have been digging in and around Jerusalem to substantiate the claim that Jewish presence in the city is millennia old. So far, they have found no such evidence.
Now, if the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt and later went to the land of Canaan, then the Canaanites were there first. Given that the Palestinians are the descendants of the Canaanites, then the Palestinians have a more valid claim to the land.
Incidentally, since Joshua ordered his men to burn Jericho to the ground, kill its men, women and children, destroy its plants, crops and livestock, then it bears mention that the Hebrews were the first to have perpetrated “terrorism” in the history of mankind. Won’t you agree?
No, actually you can’t. Hitler thought he could do that sort of thing anywhere he wanted in Europe. How well did that pan out for him?
And stop conflating Jewish with Israeli. There’s no reason innocent Jews should have to answer for your crimes.
What about Menachem Begin?
Unix,
Why do you support terrorism?
In order to argue that BDS is not a slippery slope, he has to say what the BDS movement will recommend doing if BDS does not work. Let’s say we are in 2040 and the BDS has not worked, what would be the next step?
Quite frankly, there is no sense in discussing hypotheticals.
Mathematically speaking, there are billions of ways in which events in the future can transpire. The question to ask is: “Is it reasonableto assume that X or Y will occur as a result of A or B?”
That is to say, does the BDS movement have a hidden agenda that seeks to wipe Israel off the map? The answer is, “No”. So, the likelihood of that outcome to occur is minuscule.
The fact that Zionists are hyper-ventilating over non-violent forms of resistance to apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and other crimes against humanity is disconcerting.
Advocates of BDS are not advocating for even armed resistance against the occupation even though the Geneva convention specifically gives those Palestinians under military occupation the right to armed resistance.
BDS advocates are not calling for the forced removal of Jews from Palestine nor are they even questioning the legitimacy of a “Jewish state.”
All BDS asks is that civil society (because governments won’t) put mild pressure on Israel via boycotts in an attempt to make those Israelis who “don’t mind the status quo” understand that maintaining the occupation of the West Bank, the siege of Gaza, and other inhumane actions bear consequences.
I find it ironic that so called liberal Zionists who constantly bemoan the occupation find this to be problematic. Israel at the moment has ZERO reason to relinquish its control of the West Bank.
Its time we applied that pressure.
Ah, but a Jewish supremacist state, there’s no slippery slope there, no sir!
Actually, there really isn’t; Israel went straight to the bottom of the slope, without even digging its nails in.
Lebanon commemorates the Qana massacre by the IDF in 1996
link to youtube.com
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