The Beinart piece is huge. I have to admit it. I resisted; I didn’t see anything new in it, and it bugged me because it is the effort of a religious Jew to revive Zionism among young Jews, but it is huge. It has brought the news home to the Establishment that liberal Jews don’t like Israel for good reason. Here is David Rothkopf, who states here that he is a former roommate of Michael Oren, the ambassador of Israel to the U.S., saying that the Beinart piece marks the "new normal" for Israel (and her propagandists who once sat up late in their bunkbeds thrilling one another with stories they’d read of the Mitla pass). I don’t think I have the patience to read the Rothkopf, too long. But he seems to be saying it’s chilly weather for the special relationship.
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It has the potential to be quite huge. There are huge amounts of truth in the piece that the true zionist believers want to deny.
“Of course, Israel bears a great deal of responsibility for this. They have utterly disregarded these developments as they took place and have recklessly failed on the public diplomacy front. Today, they are perceived as the aggressor and the bias against them is so acute in the media that when Palestinians launch thousands of missiles against Israel and Israel responds, the world thinks of Israel as the aggressor or when a couple of years ago a missile threat from Lebanon provoked an effective Israeli response, world public opinion concluded both that Israel started the conflict and lost it despite the fact that neither assertion is actually true.”
Great points.
Yep, great points. About time people start telling the truth about Israeli aggression.
I look forward to the day when people like Julian wont’ be able to leave the house without a bag over their heads so they won’t be recognized as neocon warmongers.
Julian, this comment by Beinart “when Palestinians launch thousands of missiles against Israel and Israel responds”, seems to be a “truism” that is in fact…untrue. In the very real sense that it is typically Palestinians who are “responding” to “Israeli initiated violence”.
Some quotes from the article entitled…
“Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?” (link below)
“…it is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict.”
“…of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%, and it unilaterally interrupted 100% of the 14 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than 9 days. ”
“Reigniting Violence: How Do Ceasefires End?” in Huffington Post.
link to huffingtonpost.com
Rothkopf’s piece, otoh, is a fullbore surge of mendacity, beginning with the lie that 1967 was a war of defense.
Oren’s history “definitive.” Open the windows and let the smell out!
That, and Nakba denial.. To quote Rothkopf:
“In June 1982, the First Lebanon War began. Not only was the war the first major Middle Eastern conflict of Obama’s adult years, it was also the trigger for a change in how Israel was viewed internationally that has defined the past three decades. Lebanon was where Israel gave up the moral high ground in its conflict with its Arab neighbors.”
1982 may have been the first major turning point in intl. opinion on Israel but they never had the moral high ground to lose.
1982 may have been the first major turning point in intl. opinion on Israel but they never had the moral high ground to lose.
Rothkopf is speaking on purely superficial terms.
He acknowledges as much, that Israel is losing the narrative that it has promoted for so long (namely that of being a poor state fighting for its very survival against a host of vicious Arab states hellbent on its destruction).
He states the examples of the offensives which have lead to Israel being viewed as the aggressor.
Rothkopf’s agenda is clear: for Israel, the diplomatic failing is a result of the failing of Israeli Hasbara (or the victory of the Israeli narrative). Thus he suggests that its propagandists work overtime to restore that very image of victimhood, and he even seems pleased of the existence of some hostile organizations (which he names Syria, Hizbollah and Iran) to be for Israel’s benefit.
To be sure, Rothkopf has no interest in the actual right or wrong of Israel, he is only concerned with the right or wrong of Brand Israel.
“It has brought the news home to the Establishment that liberal Jews don’t like Israel for good reason.”
Obviously Witty didn’t get the memo.
It’s Witty. He’ll get the memo, and without reading it, he’ll ask “Where exactly in the piece does it say that liberal Jews don’t like Israel?”
There’s a large difference between a Jewish identifying Liberal and the oxymoron known as a Liberal Zionist.
I couldn’t have said it any better myself.
especially significant was beinart admitting he’d ‘compromise’ his liberalism for Israel’s security.
in principle zionism isn’t liberal. period.
Witty has said exactly that. He’s also said he identifies more with “the Jewish state” than he does with the United States.
RE: “…her [Israel's] propagandists who once sat up late in their bunkbeds thrilling one another with stories they’d read of the Mitla pass…” – Weiss
MY COMMENT: Lol! Two extra bonus points* are hereby awarded to Phil.
* not redeemable for cash
RE: “…he [Rothkopf] seems to be saying it’s chilly weather for the special relationship…”
MUSICAL INTERLUDE:
…Our cheeks are nice and rosy
And comfy cozy are we
We’re snuggled up together
Like two birds of a feather would be
Let’s take that road before us
And sing a chorus or two
Come on, it’s lovely weather
For a sleigh ride together with you…
FROM WIKIPEDIA: “Sleigh Ride” is a popular light orchestral piece composed by Leroy Anderson. The composer had the original idea for the piece during a heat wave in July 1946; he finished the work in February 1948. Lyrics, about a person who would like to ride in a sleigh on a winter’s day with another person, were written by Mitchell Parish in 1950. The orchestral version was first recorded in 1949 by Arthur Fiedler and The Boston Pops Orchestra. The song was a hit record on RCA Victor Red Seal 49-0515 (45 rpm) / 10-1484 (78 rpm), and has become the equivalent of a signature song for the orchestra. The 45 rpm version was originally issued on red vinyl….
….Although “Sleigh Ride” is often associated with Christmas, and often appears on Christmas compilation albums, the song’s lyrics never specifically mention any holiday or religion except certain “Sleigh Ride” versions (the Carpenters and Air Supply being examples). In fact, the mention of pumpkin pie in the last verse might suggest an association with Thanksgiving rather than Christmas….
WikiLink – link to en.wikipedia.org
Rothkopf’s piece is all about Israel failing at the Hasbara level. There’s nothing really wrong with anything that Israel is doing or has done to the Palestinians, its just that Israel has lost the “narrative” battle.
Rothkopf:
My own view is that they ought to lean into the peace process and do whatever else they must to reclaim the moral high ground and the narrative they need to underpin the strong U.S.-Israel relationship that is critical to their future. If they fear that this might me concessions that are too great to the Palestinians, I say, it is worth the risk because the alternative is eroding support at critical places in the international foundations of their security.
My sense is this is a lower risk proposition than many hard-liners might think. Because I think that ultimately the Palestinian will cede the moral and political high ground in this fairly easily given their chronic dysfunctionality. As for the issue of restoring strategic centrality, the Syrians and Hezbollah and Iran seem to be working overtime to restore the narrative that it still is tiny Israel against very hostile neighbors who seek regional hegemony rather than to redress the grievances of the poor displaced Palestinians (about whom history shows they care not at all except for what utility they may have as pawns in a greater Middle East chess game.) Lean into peace, show more restraint than is comfortable, win the battle of the Internet and the cable news networks and talk radio because that is the one that is most critical to restoring the political support of the kind Israel needs.
I find much more sense in the first comment after Rothkopf’s piece:
This sense of victimhood is still strong I see
Perhaps if you could live in the slums of gaza for a few days you would begin to understand why Israel is failing in the public diplomacy front.
It appears to me that you still think Israel is being righteous and that their only failure was that they were not able to convince the world of their righteousness. This is the failure of the Israeli establishment. They still live in the old days. Their policy of diplomacy through force has failed.
Rothkopf’s piece is all about Israel failing at the Hasbara level
not entirely. he lists off reasons israel is not of the same strategic interest it may have once been to the US and even clearly states what i have always considered the likely reason the US will eventually shift course from ‘no space’ between them. not because israel is wrong, or apartheid or for any moral reason but because of this:
our global competitor for oil is the chinese, that’s what the race for the pipeline in afpak was always about and iran won on that front (iran signed a deal w/pakistan to flow the oil towards china, not india/israel). israel simply doesn’t have enough to offer the US strategically to ward off our competitors. there’s a race going on and the US gambled borrowing a massive amount of money from the chinese to shore up our economy as we dumped it all in the warzone. stupid move. we’ve been sidetracked and distracted because of israel. our relationship w/them has helped drive us into a ditch. AND, we have lots to pay back…trillions in fact. what is china doing? investing w/iran. we’ve been investing in iran too, by knocking out their competitor iraq.
phil, if you haven’t already you should read the whole article. just sift out the bullshit.
there’s a race going on and the US gambled borrowing a massive amount of money from the chinese to shore up our economy as we dumped it all in the warzone.
Is it accurate to refer to it as “borrowing” from the Chinese?
The U.S. government authorizes the spending (warzone and whatever else the pols can use to gain favor) which creates debt, which the Chinese then buy.
Of course this can only happen on a fiat money system where the government can print money at will, essentially creating it out of thin air.
As if that weren’t bad enough, it’s not even the government which creates the money out of thin air (where there might at least be some accountability and oversight), it’s the Fed, which has absolutely no oversight whatsoever.
So, we have private central bankers creating money which our government (ultimately the taxpayers) is on the hook for.
And these central bankers all have intimate ties to Israel.
Fascinating.
I thought that the Chinese are in the process of buying Taiwan – at some point in the future exchanging control for amelioration of American debt.
at some point in the future exchanging control for amelioration of American debt.
sort of. i don’t think it is so much about amelioration of american debt as it is china threatening to withhold further loans
Translated from diplo-speech: “Give us Taiwan and you’ll get the loan.”
i rec this link titled Selling Out Taiwan To Finance The Bailout.
Is it accurate to refer to it as “borrowing” from the Chinese?
a rose by any other name….no perhaps it is not accurate but selling debt is borrowing money is it not?
perhaps it is not accurate but selling debt is borrowing money is it not?
Yeah, that’s what I was getting at annie. I don’t think it is. Not exactly, anyway. Frankly, that financial stuff starts getting real esoteric once you dig down into it, and I don’t have the inclination at this point to try to understand it better. But, from the little bit of reading I’ve done on it, it isn’t the same thing.
ok, i’ll be the first to admit i don’t totally get how all this works.
Beinart piece marks the “new normal” for Israel
yep. told ya so. it’s a watershed. finally after all this time. and it couldn’t have happened without you phil. beinhart wouldn’t have been the first to say it, it took the masses to know it before he spoke out and nyrb published it. the conversation has begun for them because you and norm and others started it. thank you.
this is what they do not want of course. they do not want this conversation. they want us to shut up but the train left the station a long long time ago. thanks to you know who. it took guts and courage..go look in the mirror and acknowledge your part in this.
now i will go read Rothkopf.
No need to bother with Rothkopf, it’s worthless tripe.
Annie,
I agree that the Beinart piece is huge (despite and maybe even because of its flaws), and I also agree that it is the product of a process to which Phil and Adam have made a significant contribution. We must also thank Foxman, Aipac, Dershowitz et al. (not to mention Israeli governments) and particularly their responses to the Gaza massacre and the Goldstone Report – which have made the cognitive dissonance of PEP increasingly untenable.
What a grandiose vision in the end, let’s look at it’s core elements:
My sense is this is a lower risk proposition than many hard-liners might think. Because I think that ultimately the Palestinian will cede the moral and political high ground in this fairly easily given their chronic dysfunctionality.
The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. We can always trust on that.
As for the issue of restoring strategic centrality, the Syrians and Hezbollah and Iran seem to be working overtime to restore the narrative that it still is tiny Israel against very hostile neighbors who seek regional hegemony rather than to redress the grievances of the poor displaced Palestinians (about whom history shows they care not at all except for what utility they may have as pawns in a greater Middle East chess game.)
It’s all the Arabs problem, since they didn’t take in the displaced persons as Israel did with it’s own. If they had, there would be no problem now and everything would be fine.
Isn’t part of the tale that Israel is working overtime to produce foes too?
Oh I forgot. It’s only defending itself against a sea of foes, who want to drive it into the sea.
Lean into peace, show more restraint than is comfortable, win the battle of the Internet and the cable news networks and talk radio because that is the one that is most critical to restoring the political support of the kind Israel needs.
So ultimately peace is always won in a battle? Israel, the light unto the nation, with an certificate to the “moral high ground”, only needs to convince the most powerful nation on earth against the rest. And that position is not problematic? Internet, Cable News. Talk radio. As battle ground. Something that isn’t controlled by us but should be? Hmmm?
Ok I try again:
What a grandiose vision in the end, let’s look at it’s core elements:
The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. We can always trust on that.
It’s all the Arabs fault, since they didn’t take in the displaced persons as Israel did with it’s own. If they had, there would be no problem now and everything would be fine.
Isn’t part of the tale that Israel is working overtime to produce foes too?Oh I forgot. It’s only defending itself against a sea of foes, who want to drive it into the sea.
So ultimately peace is always won in a battle? Israel, the light unto the nation, with an certificate to the “moral high ground”, only needs to convince the most powerful nation on earth against the rest. And that position is not problematic? Internet, Cable News. Talk radio. As battle ground. Something that isn’t controlled by us but should be? Hmmm?
There was a debate between Norman Finkelstein and Benny Morris on Crosstalk on RT television this evening. I thought Finkelstein demolished Morris, but I suppose I’m not exactly impartial.
Rothkopf’s piece is singularly unimpressive, and Israelo-centric. My hip-shot response, perhaps a bit snide, follows:
This is simplistic nonsense. If we hadn’t been saddled with Israel, Israel’s enemies in the region (Egypt, etc) could (would!) have been our allies. Our oil supplies would have been, and would be, more safely secured by being buds with the guys holding the oil, not the guys constantly threatening the guys holding the oil.
Hmm… That’s what The High-Fiver’s thought, too.
When has Israel EVER acted as a ‘foothold’ for the United States? Just one example, please.
Both are true. A minor border incident started by Hizbullah, who wanted Israeli POW’s as bargaining chips to get their own back that are still languishing in Israeli prisons (and to get back their stolen land, the Shebaa Farms), was escalated by Israel into a full scale invasion. Israel ruthlessly attacked civilian infrastructure all over Lebanon FIRST. Then and only then did Hizbullah began firing rockets at Israel.
What ‘missile threat’? That’s like complaining about your next-door neighbor’s ‘gun threat’ because you want to rob him and wish he didn’t have a gun.
Israel did lose. Please specify a metric by which the IDF succeeded. For the first time Israel sent in ground forces who not only failed to secure their objectives, but ended up retreating leaving Lebanon better monitored by the UN which will significantly impairs its flexibility the next time it decides to attack Lebanon.
Hizbullah’s successful 2006 defense is a vastly different proposition to the IDF withdrawing from Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005, both of which were in reaction to a steady drip of casualties, i.e. classic guerrilla warfare.
While Hizbullah’s performance did not strictly conform to standard Western notions of conventional warfare being defined as the ‘decisive pitched battle’, it was most definitely not a guerrilla defense. They were lauded throughout the Arab world because they successfully defended their land in a stand-up fight with the IDF before the IDF conquered it, not after. This punctured the IDF’s air of invincibility. I can’t remember to whom I should attribute this, but I recall someone writing “Israeli infantrymen really won’t be looking forward to the next time they have to fight Hizbullah in close quarters.” Indeed. And that is yet another reason it was an Israeli defeat.
Dr. Rothkopf, for the Israeli political establishment, “the settlements game [IS] the real business at hand.” Strategic centrality and moral high ground to them are only means to an end: successful conclusion of their campaign to ethnically cleanse Palestinians and fully colonize their land.
Good relations with more than just the United States are critical to Israel’s future. It is short-sighted to ignore relations with Europe and the Arab world, especially the former.
What does it mean to ‘lean into the peace process’ and ‘reclaim the moral highground’? This sounds to me like advocation of a return to the ‘liberal’ Labor Party days of frenzied colonization masked by endless peace talks, rather than the less polished Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu approach of ‘frak you, we’ll do what we want and you’ll keep giving us money to do it, or else, capiche?’ That card is so frayed at the edges a blind man can see when you add it to your hand.
translation: We can afford to make some minor concessions now to get the heat off, because when it’s off we’ll be able to impose our will on the Palestinians again.
Note that implicit is his language is the notion that no resolution will be achieved. It’s like a kid caught with his his hand in the cookie jar sheepishly apologizing when he has every intention of putting it right back in and stealing some more as soon as the adult turns attention elsewhere. There isn’t a thought that maybe stealing is wrong, but that one has to play act and tell the adult what they want to hear to get through the crisis, so that one can go back to stealing cookies as quickly as possible.
This is pretty optimistic stuff. While Iran can certainly be construed as a threat, one would have to be pretty dense indeed to cast them as Goliath and Israel as David. Attempts to cast Syria and Hizbullah as Goliath are just ROFL ridiculous. Good luck with that narrative, though. :)
I agree with most of this, of course making note of the racist euphemism ‘demographic change’. I’m shocked.
This is vague passive voice nonsense. Israel will ‘fall victim’ to what, exactly? Diminished ability to continue ethnic cleansing and colonization doesn’t make one a ‘victim’.
Good analysis, Colin. You have more patience in rebutting Rothkopf that I had.
Rothkopf, simplified:
“Quick, try another narrative. The hasbara’s not working anymore.”
Thanks Colin, all good points – now I don’t have to read it. I’m sure your version is much better and more accurate than the original…
Amazing analysis CM.
This could be turned into a post, in fact it should be turned into a post.
Must agree with the others — excellent analysis. Refreshing actually. We must always remind ourselves that Israel’s goal is the West Bank and the Golan Heights. All of the other strategic mumbo jumbo — peace talks, road maps, shelf agreements, whatevers — are tactics to that end. I frequently forget the lengths Israel will go to deceive.
I agree too, Colin. Thanks.
The writer of this piece in FP could have summarized his arguments in 2sentences ” The lackey also fails when the power that nurtures that lackey fails.”
America has been compromising its own security aginst China,India,Brazil, Russia economically and militarilly to attarct their suport in a bid to strengthen Isareli position against Iraq/Syria/Iran. It can only do so much .Very soon ( already ) US wont have much to offer these countries.
Isarel incidentally is trying to regain its voice by blaming only its fanatics ( rife in miliatry, politics,religion ,and in propaganda.) ut ignoring the facts that its very fabric and histiry are soaked in falsehood, misrepresentation, and in orchestrated violence for political ends.
If the “reset” button has been pushed, then we should see it seriously reported (that is, not just book reviews) in Forward, WP, HuffPo, Ha’aretz, and (a month later, on p. 13), NYT.
Until then, it is just the intellectuals (and the rat pack, sorry friends, “the choir”) talking to them/our selves. But revel in it. It happens so seldom!
Actually, Foreign Policy magazine link to foreignpolicy.com has got together 8 influential Jews to critique Beinart:
Alon Pinkas: The Many Israels
Steven Cohen: The Great Divorce
Steven Rosen: The Establishment Is Doing Just Fine
Alana Newhouse: A Kaleidoscopic Community
J.J. Goldberg: Jewish Institutions Betray Their Supporters
David Frum: Beinart’s Blind Spot
Jeremy Ben-Ami: The Tide Is Turning
Jeffrey Solomon: The Generation Gap
Although some of the essays add nothing to the discussion, I found the following nuances helpful additions: the diversity of the Jewish community, the generation gap of those with superficial Jewish involvement and the element that the second intifadeh played in the hardening of the Israeli electorate.
Which only makes Beinart’s point about the Jewish establishment.
Peres: Syria says it wants peace but keeps aiming missiles at Israel
Speaking at Israel Military Industries factory, president says Israel is interested only in peace, poses not threat to Lebanon or Syria. “-Haaretz May
Ad nauseum this will be quoted for rest of the century by Israel-phile crowd as evidence of peace seeking behaviorby from Israel.
To thier highest office war is peace and death is birth of new life.
Peres offered the Golan to Assad for peace with Israel and the distancing of Syria from organizations hostile to Israel (ie Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah).
Syria turned down the offer.
link to jpost.com
I may check your link after I’m done puking. Sorry, but that’s what happens every time I see the name Peres.
I’d check the fine print with a microscope.
Syria wants the Golan back and it has been making multiple desperate attempts to get Israel to sit down and talk about it , but Israel brushes it off, scuffs, laughs and snears. And now out of the blue this piece of dead rotten of weasling meat is claiming they’re making offers but Syria refuses!! Who buys this gobbledygook but the usual customers that the JPost represent?
I’m confused – are you ‘Thank God I’m Atheist’ or ‘Thank God I’m A Theist’
Richard, I’m an atheist. When I wanted to have thankgodimanatheist on blogger, it wasn’t available so I dropped the an. I didn’t realise it could be mistaken for ‘a theist’ until it was pointed out to me. It was too late.
darn you, I was so enjoying the ambiguity
“darn you, I was so enjoying the ambiguity ”
Sorry!
Dear ima, I consider my ambiguity one of my prime assets, besides being what I have the most of. I never willingly let any of it go, and I might advise you to do the same. Maybe.
Geez, you don’t even read your own links.
The president’s office issued a clarification following the publication of the interview, confirming that Peres had indeed sent a message to Assad through Medvedev, but that he had not offered to hand over control of the Golan Heights.
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‘Syria turned down Peres peace offer’
Photo by: Associated Press
‘Syria turned down Peres peace offer’
By JPOST.COM STAFF
18/05/2010 14:00
Assad says president offered Golan in return for subdued Iran ties.
Talkbacks (67)
President Shimon Peres sent a message to Syria, offering to return the Golan Heights in exchange for a promise that Damascus would sever its ties with Iran and various terrorist groups, Syrian President Bashar Assad told the Lebanese As-Safir paper in an interview published Tuesday.
Assad was quoted as saying that Peres sent the message through Russian President Dmitry Medvedev while on a visit to Russia last week. Medvedev embarked on a visit to the Middle East later that week. He visited Turkey and Syria, where he met with Hamas officials as well as Syrian ones.
RELATED:
Did Peres’s mission miss its mark?
Peres: Syria cannot arm Hizbullah and seek peace with Israel
‘Hizbullah a division of Syrian army’
The president’s office issued a clarification following the publication of the interview, confirming that Peres had indeed sent a message to Assad through Medvedev, but that he had not offered to hand over control of the Golan Heights.
According to the clarification, Peres stressed in his message to his Syrian counterpart that “Israel does not plan to attack Syria, nor does it intend to cause an escalation [of tensions] in the North.”
His message further stated that Israel was interested in peace and “prepared to immediately engage in peace talks with the Syrians.” He added, however, that Jerusalem would “not allowSyria to continue to two-time Israel by demanding a withdrawal from the Golan Heights on the one hand while setting up Iranian missiles on the mountains of the North.”
Peres further stated that Israel would not “enter into peace talks while being threatened,” urging Damascus to cease its support of Hamas and Hizbullah’s terrorist activity.
Peres further stated that Israel would not “enter into peace talks while being threatened,” urging Damascus to cease its support of Hamas and Hizbullah’s terrorist activity.
Funny how its Israel that occupies Syrian territory (thus threatening Syria) and Peres talks about not wanting to engage in Peace negotiations while Syria threatens Israel…
These people must live in a parallel universe.
Sorry, for the sloppy cut and paste. I was so amazed that yonira would dare to post a link that refuted what he claimed it said that I acted a bit hastily.
Here’s the quote from JPost again minus the extraneous stuff:
Israel offered talks, period. We all know how productive “talks” with Israel have been over the past 40 some years.
Go easy on yonira. He may have just read the headline only. It’s the headline that counts, “Syria turned down the offer”. Who needs to know more? Not him obviously.
Anyone interested in knowing all political matters related to Syria should have a look at Joshua Landis extraordinary blog, Syria comment.
link to joshualandis.com
The comments are first grade, basically all academics.
An experiment in peace making: A first of its kind!
This blog.
link to onemideast.org
“OneMideast.org is an online discussion arena intended for raising and debating ideas central to the Arab-Israeli peace process.
The project, which represents the first joint Syrian-Israeli online dialogue of its kind, was formed through the efforts of private individuals from both countries — bloggers, academics, political analysts, journalists, and businesspeople — who set out to produce an extensive list of objections to peace commonly encountered in both Syrian and Israeli societies.
——————
If you check the discussion taking place you’ll discover an extraordinary phenomenon. The absolute inanity, stupidity and ill faith that are coming from the Israeli side: Excerpt:
We object to peace with Syria because:
7-”The Golan is a favorite getaway destination for Israelis
The Golan, as a beautiful, relatively undeveloped destination provides Israelis a relaxed, safe experience, much sought after by many with intense lifestyles. The Golan is, to most in Israel, our “Tuscany”.”
9-There is no pressure placed upon Israel to withdraw from the Golan Heights
Unlike with the Palestinian issue, and settlement activity and withdrawal from the West Bank, no pressure is being placed upon Israel to withdraw from the Golan. Inside Israel, Israelis are saying “If America isn’t pressing us to withdraw, why should we initiate such a move?”
Yeah…
TGIA, ya kalib, you forgot to mention the Syrian answers. Distilled stupidity and hatred. Pretty reflective of the HDI in the area. Gems: “Israel is a crusader state” “The governement changes all the time ” well yeah, idiots, that’s what happens when you have elections.
“Israel is a crusader state”
Is it not?
“The governement changes all the time ”
Don’t they?
He he..
“that’s what happens when you have elections. ”
No problems with elections or a change of gov’t, rachel but when you spend years negotiating a solution or an “offer” and get close to some kind of understanding and then you have a new elected gov’t which turns its back on everything the previous one worked on, as it has happened many times before, well, that becomes a problem as far as peace is concerned. Doesn’t it rabid rachel?
I found most, not all by any means, Syrian objections quite sound. OTOH, most Israeli arguments stem from the fascistic concept of “might makes right”..
You can start growling now, rabid rachel.
governments change in parliamentary democracies. how is that a bad thing? Syria’s unstable government hasn’t had a non-assad in power since it the 60s, is this a good thing?
“Syrian objections quite sound”
Of course you would, ya sharmoota.
rachel yet again displays how there is a settler in each Zionist just waiting to come out.
No one is saying the problem is democracy or elections. Those are mostly academics working in the West. What they are saying is that the problem is discontinuity in the process of working on a solution. Most of the people involved in the arguments are
ya sharmoota.
Just in case people are unsure what it means, I’ve been called a whore..
Hey, he is the one who links to the sharmoota video!
Don’t whine now , TGIA. Man up! You dish it, you can also take it!
you are a whore
That was the name of the video. I never called you such a thing, you foul-mouthed demented thug!
“you are a whore ”
What makes me a whore, yonira? Can you elaborate? BTW, I’ve never been as offensive to you.
Name calling again, tsk, tsk!
Anyways, good night, haver.
TGIA,
Don’t have a meltdown. Sharmoota is really a term of endearment in Israel. Yes, that’s how perverted we are.
You’ve been reported Rachel.
i was defending rachel’s honor ;)
you’ve been reported atheist
You too.
You’ve been reported Rachel
Does that mean, that I am going to be banned! Yeah! I will wear that as a badge of honour! Besides, this might be just what I needed to get to bed early!
BTW, it’s not enough to report you have to include the offensive comment, dear! Which one is it?
Let’s have a look at the sequence of events:
rachel May 21, 2010 at 10:16 pm
TGIA, ya kalib,(dog)”
My response:
rabid rachel
rachel May 21, 2010 at 11:10 pm
Of course you would, ya sharmoota
Another response:
I’ve been called a whore.
yonira May 21, 2010 at 11:21 pm
you are a whore
My response to rachel:
I never called you such a thing, you foul-mouthed demented thug!
My response to yonira:
What makes me a whore, yonira?
It’s obvious who started shit!
By the way yonira. You have proven that the tribe is more important to you than principles. I’m the one who has been called a dog and a whore, but I’m the one to blame. I was wrong when I said that I don’t think you’re loathsome. Very wrong.
“Sharmoota is really a term of endearment in Israel.”
You’re not in Israel now Rachel.
“you are a whore”
Without provocation Yonira calls TGIA a whore (a pre-emptive strike), while screaming blue murder if Chaos resorts to vaguely similar tactics. Such hypocrisy!
“Sharmoota is really a term of endearment in Israel.”
Not in million years, and she knows it.. She’s weaseling her way out..Her foul mouthed type should not be tolerated here.
I’m not sure Rachel’s transgressions warrant banning just yet, but it does need to stop. For now it’s enough to point out the meaning of her insult, and place it in a context as Sherbrsi did – the famous video of the vicious settler using it to insult a Palestinian women in Hebron:
link to youtube.com
It’s the longer clip prefaced with an interview, the settler speaks of her desire for a complete takeover by jews of Hebron.
TGIA you didn’t really comment on Rachel also calling you “kalib” a few comments earlier It’s arabic for dog, or, as she uses it – and it’s used by arabs – bitch.
Rachel probably feels multi-cultural et tres chic by using a few arabic words here and there. I imagine she gets the same feeling when she sits down and eats some Israeli.. whoops *Lebanese* hommus.
Habibti it’s not nice to call someone a kalib.
Now that we got all that out of the way I would like to suggest that a more polite word for women of negotiable virtue be “affection contractor” or even “love consultant.” After all, professional killer mercenaries have successfully rebranded themselves as “security contractors” and “security consultants.”
“Habibti it’s not nice to call someone a kalib.”
Indeed, Rachel isn’t likely to get any medals at the Hasbara Olympics.
“TGIA you didn’t really comment on Rachel also calling you “kalib””
It was an unprovoked attack. That’s why I called her rabid Rachel..
The real kalb in this story is yonira. He knew who was the initiator but chose his tribe over his principles.
Talking about rabid settlers:
Qusra village farmers driven off their fields by settlers
Rabid settler takes over a home
“That’s why I called her rabid Rachel..”
Ha ha that was too subtle, I missed it.
TGIA,
That’s the thing about the Golan. It’s “within the Israeli consensus”. The settlers there are mostly secular entrepreneurs (as opposed to the wild-eyed religious fanatics of the more visible WB settlements – who creep most “normal” Israelis out), and there’s skiing, hiking, wineries, waterfalls, no intifada (only a few harmless Druse left), etc. Heaven on earth. Furthermore, its vital strategic importance is unquestioned and virtually unquestionable in Israel (it’s often referred to as Israel’s “eyes” – what kind of a madman would contemplate giving away their eyes?). To recapitulate: Tuscany + internal consensus (no internal pressure) + security + eyes + no external pressure.
For these reasons, there was no need for an official denial from Peres’ office to know that the report couldn’t possibly have been true.
I don’t know whether she was trying to be facetious, but sharmoota is most definitely not a “term of endearment” in Israel. It is one of those Arabic epithets (like kalb, yil’an abuk, yehrab beitak – and others, somewhat more vulgar) that have been adopted in Israeli Hebrew. The usage is analogous to whore, slut or bitch in English.
Shmuel..She knows it’s very offensive in Arabic and that’s why she used it. Her first provocation, kalib(kalb), got a low key response from me so she aimed lower..When she realised that she crossed the line she tried to weasel her out. The woman is unhealthy!
Hasbara Olympics
LOL. I can just imagine Dershowitz jumping hurdles.
Since he’s a lawyer he would be the defending champion.
Since he’s a defense lawyer..
There aren’t any mountains in the North; of Israel, that is. There are, however, in Lebanon. This leaves a handy open door for Israel to attack Lebanon once again.
Israel occupied Southern Lebanon up to the Litani for 22 years from 1978-2000. Hizbollah, which didn’t even exist in 1978, kicked them out.
At least they didn’t establish any settlements there, although they established local proxies, the South Lebanon Army, mostly as prison guards (Khiam), whom they abandoned when they slunk out.
Days before an agreed ceasefire, Israel sprayed the whole area with cluster bombs “An anonymous IDF rocket battery commander commented on the extent of the use of cluster bombs by saying “what we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs.” An official IDF spokesman said, “International law does not include a sweeping prohibition of the use of cluster bombs. The convention on conventional weaponry does not declare a prohibition on phosphorus weapons, rather, on principles regulating the use of such weapons”. The US government declared its intent to investigate whether Israel’s use of US-made cluster bombs in southern Lebanon had violated secret agreements that restrict when it can employ such weapons. 90 percent of the cluster bomb strikes occurred in the last 72 hours of the war. As of 6 September 2006, at least 13 people were killed and dozens injured after the ceasefire in Lebanon by unexploded ordnance. Most of the deaths resulted from the submunitions of cluster bombs. The United Nations had found 100,000 unexploded cluster bomblets at 359 sites by that time”
Sorry, I missed the distinction between Israel’s craven retreat from Lebanon in 2000, and their reinvasion in 2006 (was that the 4th or 5th time they invaded Lebanon?) The cluster bombs were their going-away present in 2006
Ah, yes, “stupidity and hatred.” For that, we have rachel.
Debbie? Is that you?
link to debbieschlussel.com
prev post is addressing “Rachel”…
Rachel: “Sharmoota is really a term of endearment in Israel.”
Settler Sharmuta Video:
link to youtube.com
And also there might be a Zionist in each settler, once you get past the thief and thug. But really, I think those two come first.
Oh well, it keeps the number of Jews in American prisons artificially low, which looks good.
“The president’s office issued a clarification following the publication of the interview, confirming that Peres had indeed sent a message to Assad through Medvedev, but that he had not offered to hand over control of the Golan Heights.
According to the clarification, Peres stressed in his message to his Syrian counterpart that “Israel does not plan to attack Syria, nor does it intend to cause an escalation [of tensions] in the North.”
-In the very same article, but you had to get past the first paragraph.
Peres said that he didn’t like Syria threatening them by setting up missiles (allegations I haven’t seen proven) on the border while at the same time demanding the Golan back.
“We do not trust the Israelis … we are ready for war or peace at any moment…” – Assad – sounds pretty sensible to me given recent history…
And furthermore, why should Syria beg to get back what was taken?
Whoah, if I had known everybody was here I would have kept quiet…
This would be the same nuclear Israel that bombed Syria on suspicion that they were constructing a nuclear facility of their own. Peace-loving nation, right.
When I travelled the Amman to Damascus road by shared taxi in 1978, we could clearly see a battery of very large Syrian missiles, standing erect in firing positions, to the west of the road (ie, also in plain view from the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights). I imagine they must have been Scuds, or a Mickey Mouse predecessor, ready for someone to light the blue touchpaper and run as soon as Israel tried another stealth invasion of Syria.
Or perhaps they were just cardboard pointed cylinders to impress people like me.
“Syria has the right to defend itself.”
But not according to Israel and its whores in Congress.
“But he seems to be saying it’s chilly weather for the special relationship.”
Don’t get your hopes up Phil. After all , as you said, Beinart is not saying anything new. Beinart is bringing the conversation from communal newspapers to the mainstream. He is in effect washing dirty Jewish laundry in public. He is not saying anything some columnists at the Forward or in Haaretz have not been saying for ages. That tension was always there. From the very beginning of political zionism. Except it was hidden from the goyim out of Jewish solidarity. I remember fundraising ages ago for the UJA in Toronto, and quite a few people among the less traditional set objected to the money going to anything having to do with Israeli military.
“That tension was always there. From the very beginning of political zionism. Except it was hidden from the goyim out of Jewish solidarity. I remember fundraising ages ago for the UJA in Toronto, and quite a few people among the less traditional set objected to the money going to anything having to do with Israeli military.”
You know, that “hidden from the goyim out of Jewish solidarity” is a little disturbing. It’s natural human behavior, but natural human behavior is what we were put on this earth to rise above (can’t remember where I read that, but it’s funny.) Especially when people who did criticize Israel were and are often accused of anti-semitism. I suppose that’s why Chomsky and Finkelstein were so widely hated–airing the dirty laundry in public.
“Don’t get your hopes up Phil. After all , as you said, Beinart is not saying anything new. Beinart is bringing the conversation from communal newspapers to the mainstream. He is in effect washing dirty Jewish laundry in public. He is not saying anything some columnists at the Forward or in Haaretz have not been saying for ages. ”
Well, that’s the point, isn’t it? Ha’aretz has been publishing this stuff for ages, but in the US you say things that are ever so slightly critical of Israel and you have to do backflips to show you’re not an anti-semite. If this talk goes mainstream then maybe the politics of the issue will change.
It has, and is going, mainstream in the US, under the radar. The US military at the ground level is being educated. Gordon Duff, of Veterans Today, has published a series of articles on Israel lately that are eye-openers, and others at the publication are going after the Christian Zionists, implying they are homegrown terrorists when they advocate for Israel over the USA on religious grounds.
Israel ready for peace with Syria!!! Woah!..
But wait!!
“Israelis ready to sign a peace agreement with Syria but will not give up the Golan Heights, Israeli President Shimon Peres said addressing students at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations. ”
link to joshualandis.com
Ha ha ha! Zionism in a nutshell.
“Especially when people who did criticize Israel were and are often accused of anti-semitism.”
This may sound flippant but it is like the N word. Black people call each other “nigger” but if Don Imus says it , all hell breaks loose. Same thing here, Beinart does it from a good place, others join the bandwagon to give themselves cover for their judeophobia. The “jewdar” can tell the difference.
Can tell the difference? Not any “jewdar” you can respect.
I doubt people are as good at detecting hidden bigotry as they imagine in cases where their own moral position is under attack. It’s just natural to want to believe that a critic must be evil and has bad motives–that way you don’ t have to take them seriously. People use this “defense” all the time.
There are real anti-semites who are attracted by this subject and you see some of that here, but unless someone says something derogatory about Jews in general there’s no reason to trust your “jewdar” about such things. And false accusations of anti-semitism have this side-effect of making anti-Palestinian bigotry more acceptable, because anyone who defends Palestinian rights is automatically suspect. I called that a side-effect, but it’s probably intentional.
Well said, Donald. Rachel’s “Jewdar” is a varation on one of 3e’s idées fixes: criticism out of concern for Israel and a desire to make it better is ok; everything else is “irrational hatred”. A false dichotomy if there ever was one.
Thanks.
I’ve been seeing a lot of the anti-semitism accusation lately where it was clearly without foundation. This whole business of “Well, I know you’re a racist because you say non-racist things that accuse my group of human rights violations” is transparently stupid, but many people seem to find it convincing. Or at least useful.
“…but many people seem to find it convincing. Or at least useful.”
Much more useful than convincing, I think. It’s more of a threat than an argument.
And the “jewdar” is definitely badly calibrated.
How right you are, rachel! And as far as I’m concerned, I think you demand, and consistently excersise your right to call black people “ni**er every time you see one. After all, that’s what they call each other!
And BTW, your comment makes no sense.
Rebranding Israel as a state headed for fascism
Bradley Burston
No one knows fascism better than Israelis.
A prayer for the Gazan armed only with a flag
Bradley Burston
There may not be a ‘Palestinian Gandhi’ but there sure are Palestinians adopting his non-violent principles, and getting shot, wounded or killed, daily.
Any budding Gandhi is jailed.
Reading Beinart piece I found this gem:
“Republican pollster Frank Luntz urges American Jewish groups to use the word “Arabs, not Palestinians,” since “the term ‘Palestinians’ evokes images of refugee camps, victims and oppression,” while “‘Arab’ says wealth, oil and Islam.””
Not to mention that “Palestinian” invokes belonging to Palestinian when “Arab” invokes the “invader” from “Arabia”
It’s all about tricks and manipulation! ALWAYS!
A pollster who recognizes that Arab is a racist term. Americans don ‘t distinguish between Arabs and Iranians for that reason. Arab means “wealth, oil, and Islam” but no such creatures exist as Christian Arabs. And a reminder that Arab is a racist term from Erica Jong, who with a Lebanese Catholic brother-in-law, could write “Arabs and other animals I have known.”
Erica young said that?
And Erica’s sister confronted her publicly about it during an event involving Erica at Columbia University, written up in the New Yorker.
Yeah, she wrote a piece so entitled back in the day–a big seller.
Erica Jong’s “Arabs and Other Animals”
link to counterpunch.org
“invokes belonging to Palestinian”
To Palestine.
Regarding Peter Beinart’s accurate observation,
“[T]he Jewish establishment has asked American Jews to check their liberalism at Zionism’s door, and now, to their horror, they are finding that many young Jews have checked their Zionism instead”:
A 2006 study at Brandeis University, highlighted in an administration-directed campus publication, the Brandeis Reporter, found that an overwhelming majority of campus-age American Jews “consistently place more importance on being a good person and making the world a better place than they do on any particularistic Jewish concerns, including observing Shabbat, caring about Israel, countering anti-Semitism or supporting Jewish organizations.”
Said one of the study organizers, “We are not shocked by these findings, because these students look very much like their parents, but we had hoped the campuses were doing better than that.”
The study was underwritten by the Steinhardt Foundation, a major underwriter of Taglit-Birthright Israel.
[See "Particularism in the University: Realities and Opportunities for
Jewish Life on Campus",
link to dcoll.brandeis.edu.pdf?sequence=1 ]
OT: from the weekend edition of the ‘Financial Times’ the looming demographic threat of the Ultra-Orthodox.
link to ft.com
The tensions are as old as the Jewish state itself. Mostly, however, the two sides have kept to an intricate set of live-and-let-live agreements that grant authority over many social and religious questions to the ultra-orthodox. Crucially, the ultra-orthodox have their own stream of schools, and those studying in a yeshiva , or Jewish seminary, are exempt from military service.
But that deal is starting to unravel because of a sharp increase in the ultra-orthodox population. Once a tiny minority, the community today accounts for at least 8 per cent of the Israeli adult population. It is forecast to double every 16 years. In Jerusalem more than half the Jewish children attending primary school hail from ultra-orthodox families.
A survey by Israel’s Taub Centre for Social Policy Studies highlighted the economic consequences: almost two-thirds of ultra-orthodox men do not work, meaning that a rapidly increasing share of the population depends on state welfare.
Many ultra-orthodox schools refuse to teach the core curriculum, so thousands of pupils grow up with only a rudimentary knowledge of maths and none of other sciences, foreign languages or non-religious history.
“The great majority of ultra-orthodox men are not able to work in most vocations in the modern world. They are very much dependent on government support – and that has aggravated a lot of people,” says Menachem Friedman, a professor at Bar Ilan -university.
The ultra-orthodox are coming to be seen as a heavy burden. Calls for reform of their schools are growing, as are demands to draft yeshiva students into the army.
I think the journalist who wrote this has been hanging out with too many secular Israelis. This view is superficial and biased, failing to take into account the fact that the difficulties in and with ultra-orthodox society in Israel are largely due to the compulsory draft and Israel’s ethno-religious character.
I can’t access the article right now, so I’m not sure whether the phrase “demographic threat” comes from the FT or not, but I find it rather disturbing, whether directed at Palestinians or haredi Jews or any other population group. Babies are not a threat or a problem, and no population is inherently inimical to “normal” society by the very fact of its existence.
Shmuel, it’s the end of the thread, so I’ll hijack it. Here is what precedes marc b’s FT quote
and the tag paragraphs
Thanks, MRW. I just managed to get into the FT site. The full article only reinforces my impression. Exotic, menacing other, not even worth interviewing. The closest Buck gets is a couple of “experts” (Friedman, btw, is a pretty good scholar, who I’m sure has a lot more to say on the subject, than the pretty uninformative one-liner Buck found room for).
The bias of foreign correspondents in Jerusalem – related to the neighbourhoods they live in and the people they associate with – has been discussed here before. They tend to hang out with secular, Israeli Jews, and so largely reflect a secular (leftish), mostly-Ashkenazi, Israeli (Zionist) viewpoint (“Ahusal”, to use Kimmerling’s term) – whether the subject is Palestinians, settlers, “Russians”, Haredim or Mizrahim. I’m not talking about the famous MSM “balance”, but about relative objectivity and depth. I have no problem with scathing, “one-sided” articles, as long as they are well-researched and thought through, as opposed to reflecting someone else’s bias.
thanks shmuel and mrw for the responses. i took the phrase ‘demographic threat’ from the tone of the article and the ‘breeding like rabbits’ insinuation coming from the population ‘doubling every 16 years’ quote. i have no love for the ultra-orthos, but shmuel is correct, the description of them is identical to the language used to describe threatening populations of ‘darkies’ everywhere. liberal is not synonymous with tolerant. obviously.
J Street thinks that it can isolate Israel’s problems to the haredim, Christian zionists, and the ultra-orthodox. that’s the good news. the bad news is they are sizeable groups and growing, and very well funded. J Street’s suggested solution to the very difficult problem? Pressure Obama, lobby Congress.
Congress doesn’t know from J Street, ultra orthodox, Reform, AIPAC, Conservative, liberal, nothing. ‘All those Jews look alike.’ So when Rham Emmanuel and Dennis Ross say, “Israel wants money,” Congress has no idea WHICH Israel is making the demand. Giving Israel another $205 m might be considered counterproductive by some Jews, absolutely essential to others.
It seems crystal clear that Jews must solve their problems amongst themselves. It is becoming more and more clear to me that many Jews, perhaps the majority of Jews, have been bullied by a wealthy and vicious elite for some time in recent history, and that there is a pattern (call it the Israel vs Judah pattern of internal strife resulting in cleavages amongst Jews; of some Jews (bar Kochba comes to mind) taking hot-headed and minority positions that resulted in bad things happening to a majority of Jews.
Israel is not Obama’s problem to solve, nor is it the problem of the US Congress or the US people to solve; the civil war simmering in Israeli and Jewish society can and must be solved only by Jews and Israelis.
The best thing the US can do to push warring Jewish factions to come to terms with one another is to step out of the picture completely. Israeli advocates should be purged from US government and policy making positions; they are using the instruments of US government to solve the problems of another foreign state’s problems, while THAT foreign state’s government is ignoring the reality of the fractures in its own polity. US political cover provides them that luxury. Stop the paychecks, stop the political cover, and force Jews and Israelis to confront each other.
Abraham sacrificed an unblemished ram in the thicket rather than his own son. The Palestinian people have been that ram; Iran is the next intended sacrifice. It is no longer acceptable for Israel to sacrifice other people’s children on the altar of its mythology. Kill your own sons.
There are too few (American) Jews for Jews alone to solve the problem. Jews must reach out to non-Jews if they want US support for the occupation and ethnic-cleansing to end. Furthermore, it is demeaning to Palestinians to declare that this is exclusively a Jewish problem, as if Palestinians should limit themselves to to begging Jews for their rights.
Y.Laor’s ‘Myths of Liberal Zionism’ claims that this story, the Akedah, is a major favourite in Israeli literature, but with emphasis on the readiness of the Wise Fathers to put the lives of their Wonderful Sons at risk. Laor says that the normal narrative viewpoint is that of the Sons, rather narcissistic. From that point of view the surrogate sacrifice, to which father rather than son attends, is not so conspicuous and there might be less need to note that the final payoff of the father’s faith is a blessing on all nations, not just on one. The conciliatory tendency of the Abraham cycle towards the nations, even towards the Philistines, is quite marked. But it seems to be read in Israel with the Joshua cycle strongly in mind.
Chilton’s ‘Abraham’s Curse’ is good, I think.
The mentality at issue goes way back to 1945 and the founding of the state of Israel. Between that time and the declaration of the state in 1948, members of the Irgun and Hagganah, for example, relying on the famous Arab hospitality, would go door to Palestinian door, declaring an intent simply to be neighbors, and take down key stats in their head from each Palestinian family while having an apparent simple neighborly discourse. The information collected morphed into Israeli Plans A-D. Fear was raised in the Palestininians by the likes of Deir Yassein. Result? 450 Palestinian villages were routed by fear; 750 thousand Palestinians were scared off their own land in 6th months. This seldom heard story is told half-way through the following audio clip by a survivor of the Nakba who left with his family in April of 1948:
link to mycatbirdseat.com
Andrew Sullivan is pointing out that Leon Weiseltier already has a “hit piece” out on Beinart. link to tnr.com
You need a subscription to read the whole thing.
Flash news report. The story of Beinart’s NYRB article has hit the Huffington Post.
Books: Will This Generation of American Jews Abandon Israel”
link to huffingtonpost.com
Sabra and Shatila, according to Rothkopf, “were widely seen as being enabled by the Israeli troops.” Rothkopf is not only in denial about the role of Israel, for him, Sabra and Shatila is a public relations problem for Israel. He should now be eligible for an ethics position at any of the many synagogues whose leaders see themselves as Israel’s US guardians.