Going through checkpoints in the West Bank is often described as similar to going through airport security before leaving on an international flight--with much more unpredictable waits, fussier metal detectors, and the added humiliating features like full-body turnstiles between caged passage ways that resemble cattle chutes. Instead of encountering airline security officials who smile patiently at successive discoveries of forgotten back-pocket change, I've watched armed soldiers yell at Palestinians in Hebrew from a glass booth. At Bethlehem checkpoint occasionally I've watched soldiers stand on platforms above my head. I've watch them yelling at the Palestinian workers below as their guns hang on their shoulders, at an angle giving me a clear view to see up the barrels of their guns.
Instead of presenting a passport, Palestinians with West Bank IDs trying to get to Jerusalem have to present electromagnetic ID cards (in addition to their West Bank IDs). Instead of showing a plane ticket, they have to present a permit for entering Jerusalem. Palestinians with West Bank IDs going to Jerusalem have to have their hands scanned as well. Instead of spurring a widely reported debate in the media about the ethics of mandatory fingerprinting--as its use in US and UK airports has--precious few US media reports have even mentioned Israel's widespread use of biometrics at checkpoints.
Thousands of Palestinians and large numbers of tourists depend on Bethlehem checkpoint to enter East Jerusalem and Israel daily. It is also called Gilo checkpoint, named after the nearby Gilo settlement. When I first moved to Bethlehem I was confused about the name, originally assuming that "the Gilo checkpoint" would be a checkpoint that Gilo settlers would have to use. Why would a checkpoint only for Palestinians be named for Jewish-only settlements, residents of which don't ever have to use this kind of checkpoint?
But if you take a look at the full list of the 69 permanently staffed checkpoints in the West Bank as documented by UNOCHA in its November 2009 report, you'll see a long list of Palestinian-only checkpoints named after the adjacent Israeli settlement (Shave Shomeron, Yitav, Beit Hadassa, etc). These major obstacles to Palestinian movement are often named after the nearby settlement for which these Palestinians are ostensibly being obstructed.
Seems like a blatant admission that individual checkpoints for Palestinians are installed by Israel primarily to serve these illegal settlements--rather than the Israeli citizens living within Israel. In fact, all of these checkpoints--along with over 600 other closures--are within the occupied West Bank, an area approximately the size of Delaware. (None of the checkpoints located on Israel's Green Line border are not included in these figures.)
5 MIN-5 HRS: THE POLITICS BEHIND THE WAIT FOR 2,000 WORKERS A DAY
Perhaps the most mysterious difference between waiting in line at a checkpoint and nearly every other line I have ever waited in is that I've rarely had any idea what causes these checkpoint delays. The soldiers are hidden from view until you get up to the very front of the checkpoint, so it's often impossible to tell. One time at Qalandia checkpoint I waited behind a turnstile while I watched female soldiers inside a glass booth take turns sitting on each others' laps and gleefully snapping pictures of each other with their digital cameras. (Perhaps they were all tagged in an "IDF on Duty" Facebook album later that day?)
I watched a soldier at Bethlehem checkpoint nod sleepily, with his eyes closed, hooked into his I-Pod. Not until I yelled "Shalom" several times and rattled the full-body turnstile repeatedly did he open the first of a series of turnstiles at the checkpoint. (I'd love to know how long he would have waited if I had been a Palestinian, rather than a non-Arab looking Westerner waving a U.S. passport.)
Most lines I've waited on--whether at movie theaters, grocery stores, or even at airport security--operate with some sort of correlation between the number of people in line and the anticipated wait time. At checkpoints such logical principles rarely apply. The delays are often caused not from shuttling people through the metal detectors but rather from the soldiers failing to open the gates to the metal detectors at all. Sometimes it has taken me 5 minutes to get through the checkpoint, often it takes two hours, and not infrequently for workers in the early morning hours, it takes 5 hours.
The Ecumenical Accompaniment Programme in Palestine and Israel (EAPPI) has a team that regularly monitors Gilo checkpoint. According to Stefan Olsson from the EAPPI team, 2,000 workers line up at Gilo checkpoint by its 5 AM opening time in order to work in Israel and in Israeli settlements every work day. These workers are among an ever dwindling number of Palestinians (45,000 with West Bank IDs) who have been given permission to do so after extensive security checks. While these workers are permitted to work in Israel, they are not allowed to drive their cars into Jerusalem. Even though the same number of workers pass through Gilo checkpoint daily, it can take between 2.5-5 hours to shuttle the workers through, depending on how many gates soldiers open and how often soldiers close those gates.
DAY LABORER: A POLITICAL PROGRAM TO "FORCE PEOPLE TO QUIT WORKING IN ISRAEL"
I met Khaled at the Gilo checkpoint on April 26th, a morning when it took four hours to get the workers through, causing hundreds of workers to lose a full day's work. Khaled works at the Gilo settlement which is less than 3 kilometers away from his house. He granted me permission to use only his first name since he fears that otherwise Israel could revoke his permit for entry into Jerusalem for criticizing the situation. His anxiety was understandable. In 2007 he spoke with a reporter about the difficulties at the checkpoint and within a week his permission to work in Israel was revoked for 4 months. The Israeli authorities didn't explain the reasoning behind their decision, simply stating that his permission was revoked for "security reasons".
The Gilo checkpoint has three metal detectors, making three separate lines possible. The soldiers on duty only opened one of the gates for most of that morning. According to Olsson from EAPPI, they rarely ever open all three. Usually workers have to start work at 7 AM. By the time the soldiers allowed all of the workers inside of the checkpoint through at 9:10 AM, many had already left. For some workers, if they don't arrive at their jobs at 7 or 9 AM, their bosses won't allow them to work at all that day. If this happens often enough, they can lose their jobs altogether.
Khaled told me "this is a political program to inflict physical and psychological punishment to force people to quit working in Israel". Rather than make an explicit policy to keep Palestinian workers out of Israel which would possibly draw criticism from the international community, he explained that the longer and more arbitrary waits at the checkpoint would progressively discourage more and more workers from attempting to cross the checkpoint. That way, Khaled reasoned, "Israel can say to the whole world that Palestinians don't want to work--that it's the Palestinians' problem".
"WAITING AT THE CHECKPOINT IS MORE WORK THAN MY JOB"
Some workers I talked to that morning arrived at 4 AM, while others had arrived even earlier. According to the AP, workers can make up to $50 a day in Israel, which is four or five times what they could make in the West Bank, where unemployment hit 19% in 2008.
Khaled said "waiting at the checkpoint is more work than my job". He was sure that many if not most workers at the checkpoint felt the same way. Most of these men work in construction or other jobs involving hard manual labor. But having to go through the checkpoint is like having a second job--one which requires you to wake up in the middle of the night and wait for hours in holding pens behind metal bars until a series of 18 year old Israeli soldiers press the right buttons allowing you passage.
AIRPORT-SECURITY TYPE CHECKPOINTS IN YOUR OWN LAND
When you finally pass through Gilo checkpoint, you have a wide open view of the Wall cutting Bethlehem off from the ever-expanding Gilo settlement. Buses for the Old City in Jerusalem wait just outside, running not according to any schedule but the arbitrary speed of the checkpoint. As I watch women put their earrings back on and men slip the belts through their belt loops after having to take them off for the metal detector, the airport metaphor seems quite appropriate. The buses, just waiting on passengers to fill them up, remind me of shuttles at the airport driving passengers from one terminal to another across stretches of tarmac.
While international airport-security procedures are usually determined by internationally recognized borders between countries, a settlement in violation of international law determines the placement of this checkpoint. Unlike an airport security line where every passenger is required to endure long lines and metal detectors, this checkpoint is only for Palestinians and tourists--not the settlers who have bypass roads connecting them directly to Jerusalem.
Comparing Gilo checkpoint to international airport security grossly understates the humiliation involved. But it's a valuable comparison in that it gives you some idea of what kind of message it must send to Palestinians when going to Jerusalem. The entire process of traveling to Jerusalem--or even between different cities deep in the West Bank--simulates the experience of going through an international border. It's not just the settlements that say "this is not yours" to Palestinians, but it's also a clear message from the checkpoints that accompany them and the very process of crossing them.
Some day the history books are going to put pictures of Israel’s occupation of Palestine side by side with pictures of Nazi Germany’s occupation of Poland.
I take offense to such a callous description. No doubt it is a difficult scenario – we must think about the Israeli Psyche and how threatened they feel when faced with a population that wants to wipe them off the face of the earth.
None of this information, or these empty comparisons to Nazis, is constructive at all – rather, we should ask what we can do to help Israel speed up those checkpoints. More money, more weapons, more types of assistance is really the solution. If we push Israel to fix this relatively simple condition, they may not follow the carrot the way we want them. But imagine if we gave them another free 1 Billion dollars – surely that could convince them to open up those gates in 1/2 the time! We just have to understand Israeli desires, and how to satiate those desires. That is truly the best approach as we forget bridges with Israel into the future so that its security is always understood and guaranteed.
So considering everyone is practicing hasbara, I figured I would join in on the party. I even ignored any mention of Palestinians! I’m so proud at what I’ve learned of their tactics =)
I have no interest in entertaining such delusions. The only people who are being wiped off the face of the Earth by any violent, destructive military occupations, are Palestinians.
Well, I suppose so are the Tamils, too, now that I think about it. But Israel? Hard to claim your under existential threat while you’re sitting in a swimming pool outside your government-subsidized condo on an illegal settlement while your Palestinian neighbors have to pay five times as much for barely enough water to subsist on.
“I have no interest in entertaining such delusions. The only people who are being wiped off the face of the Earth by any violent, destructive military occupations, are Palestinians.
Sheer Palaprop. The “Palestinian” population keeps doubling. Hardly getting wiped out.
Palestinian population “keeps doubling” cause they have sex more frequently than the israelis can apparently kill or fornicate combined.
You see how it works Julian or you wanna breakdown of the world of the birds and bees my little non-mideastern friendo?
*friendo=nonfriend
By your logic, Julian, the Holocaust never happened because the Jewish population of the world was never depleted.
Zionists. The ultimate Holocaust deniers.
Good point Chaos.
But Julian is a troll, he is not worth the time you take to reply his crap. Julian why don’t you go away instead of repeating the same nonsense?
Julian is here to remind us how vile Zionists can be.
They have to keep fucking faster to keep ahead of the IDF death squads.
potsherd, Julian thinks that France should persecute its Arab and Muslim citizens.
are you joking Chaos, the Jewish population has finally caught up to pre-Holocaust levels.
you really need to get a clue about history if you are going to continue to contribute.
yonira you are pathetic, everytime Chaos says something, you just jump on it. Why do you hate Chaos that much?
So you are giving a Chaos an out because he is an idiot?
nope yonira i just observe. All your contributions here are just attacks on Chaos and decent. Why don’t you change a bit and try to expose your ideas with respect to others views here?
Oh, Julian. It’s like you resent the Palestinians for their active sex lives.
we’ll do aparisian, will you give Chaos the same advice after he attacks me then?
Yonira, thats provocative and “maximalist”. Please change in order to enrich the debate.
didn’t think so
So do the French – isn’t this is why Sarkozy is president now?
I agree Julian! When Israel falls, the blame will be laid squarely at the feet of the closed thighs of Israeli women! Don’t those girls know the Palestinian Demographic Time Bomb is ticking away?
I submitted a plan to the Israeli regime for National Promiscuity, backed up by a meticulous Talmudic exegesis, but would they listen?
We must bring back polygamy, it was good enough for all the great Jewish Patriarchs, it’s good enough for us!
yep potsherd. Sarkozy is neocon crap
“So considering everyone is practicing hasbara, I figured I would join in on the party. I even ignored any mention of Palestinians! I’m so proud at what I’ve learned of their tactics =)”
A solid B+ for effort, but next time try to add in a few non sequiturs about Iranian nuclear capabilities, rocket attacks on Sderot and suicide bombings. Extra credit if you manage to work in a mention of the Hamas charter.
Don’t forget Olmert’s Generous Offer!
Now, see, that gem’s reserved for when the IDF makes another wildly disproportionate, brutal attack on Gaza. Don’t trot out the big guns too liberally ;-) You want to shock and awe the stupidly trusting public with the fact that the Israelis have tried and tried and tried so hard to make peace with the Arabs but they just hate us more than they love their children. So naturally, we have to bomb the anti-Semitism out of the Gaza strip. Pace yourself, Sumud!
Listen to her kid, she’s practically the Edward Mayonaise of Hasbara.
And to think that just two months ago, I didn’t even know the meaning of the word “hasbara”. Really. Oh, I was young and green and hadn’t yet been called an anti-Semite by a crazed, alleged IDF veteran.
LOL the path to enlightenment is being attacked by zionist zealots and accused of things you’re not.
Funny how everything Israel does these days is backfiring. I can’t think of a better way of offending free people than sending out an army of half-wit propagandists robots.
AM/eeee
Long time no come around asshole!
It’s gonna be a real bore-fest with you back, this time wearing your skidmarked underpants on your head for disguise and repeating the same old bombastic racist shit: “baaaaaaaaaaa israel is good baaaaaaaaa palestininans don’t exist blaaaaawwbaaaa spit, fart and vomit!
Taxi, I think he’s just kidding. Fake hasbara.
Krikee I got no sense of humor today!!!
Sorry AM (sheepishly but earnestly).
AM, if you want to get better at hasbara, (you’re prtty good already) start with the basics, the Big Four:
How to Make the Case for Israel- And Win!
[...pictures of Nazi Germany’s occupation of Poland.]
The Nazis used forced labor on the ‘undesirable people’. In Israel the
people who ‘relatively hateful’ of Jews and rejecting the statehood of Israel are complaining over long wait in their way to their jobs in Israel…
This is why accusations of inhuman treatment by the Jews have tendency to fall back squarely on Israel critics….
Can we not see some irrational ironies between and among peoples here?
a) Why long wait?
b) Why in Israel?
c) Where are the Palestinians leaders?
d) Where is the Palestinian wisdom for enhancing their own people?
Thanks to Katya Reed for amplifying these ironies….
Why do you hate Palestinians so much? Why do you ignore it when Israelis burn their mosques and bomb their hospitals and imprison their leaders and slaughter their children by the hundreds?
The trouble in our search for peace is that we only look at the issue only on one side – our own preferred side.
I do not hate the Palestinians. What I detest more is the character of looking unto the issue one-sided… and worst, accusing the other protagonist based on this preferred side alone. Such is a callous disrespect to reason. I do not worship reason, but as for me it is a hallowed ground…
It is not I favor to the Israelis over his ‘enemies’. It is not by hatred against the Palestinians (we even have recently visited our beloved muslims cousins). It is the despicable way you critics handle you burning hatred against the Jews…
Israel is NOT “the Jewish people.” Israel is merely collection of Euro-trash colonists and Russian mobsters who suckered the vast majority of the Jewish people into a raw deal that leaves them deprived of contact with the diversity that is the rest of the world and dependent on the cult leaders and nationalist militant terrorists who stole Palestine from the Palestinians.
Some day, sooner or later, the Jewish people will reject and disown Israel as a golden calf that needs to be melted down.
[Why do you ignore it when Israelis burn their mosques and bomb their hospitals and imprison their leaders and slaughter their children by the hundreds]
I have been telling this; war is a tragedy. Anything can happen in a war. War is not a game were responses of the protagonists are measured… War is painful, extremely painful to the point of insanity… If we detest these sorrows of war, why go to war? why force one nation to react violently? Why induce Israel to make obnoxious policies just to protect and sustain themselves securely? Systematically the Gaza Palestinians and Israel are at the state of a low intensity war…as peace between two parties was not yet formally declared yet…
And worst, the manner the critics of Israel taunt the world opinion, are likewise fueling this flame of hatred, and this pattern of antagonism between two peoples…
Gaza has no air defenses, no armor, no standing armor and, after the first days of Operation Cast Lead, no government buildings from which to field command and control.
How can you have a war when one side is an army and the other are all civilians?
“no standing army,” that third point was supposed to read.
… the critics of Israel … are likewise fueling this flame of hatred, and this pattern of antagonism between two peoples…
What does this mean? Are you claiming that criticism of Israel is responsible for antagonism between Israelis and Palestinians?
Do you think that the ethnic cleansing and colonization taking place under the cover of permanent military occupation might have a little something to do with it?
Why induce Israel to make obnoxious policies just to protect and sustain themselves securely?
What does Israeli state-sponsored ethnic cleansing and Jewish colonization have to do with Israelis “protecting and sustaining themselves?”
Chaos, Chaos, please! You are talking to zamaaz here! Like you expect some kind of answer?
Z where do you get the idea that the people waiting in line are ‘relatively hateful’ of Jews?
“a) Why long wait?” The article notes likely causes for long waits, such as soldiers taking photos of each other or web surfing instead of allowing people through the gates. Did you just fail to grasp that, or what?
“b) Why in Israel?” Why what in Israel? All the checkpoints described were between one part of the occupied territories and the other, also their jobs were in the occupied territories, not Israel
“c) Where are the Palestinian leaders?” What is the relevance of this question? The only conclusion one can make on your question is that it’s a rather obvious attempt to “blame the victim” and score some hasbara point, bringing up an issue not mentioned in the article
“d) Where is the Palestinian wisdom for enhancing their own people?” Now, your comment I’m sure being representative of wise Israeli enhancing of their own people, you’ve spent so much effort to excuse Israeli inhumanity, callousness not to mention brutality and war crimes, sadly you’ve missed the real irony here.
Norman Finkelstein has already compiled this.
I know, obviously. I post that link like every other day. :) I mean when it actually appears in the historical record as such.
It’s only a matter of time Chaos.
With Israeli politicians now tacitly admitting Israel is an apartheid state, there aren’t so many steps to take before the concepts of jew-free (the nazi fantasy) or jew-only (the zionist fantasy) are compared.
The EU’s problematic working definition of anti-semitism – which labels any comparison between Israeli and Nazi policy anti-semitic, just screams out this is an area which needs further investigation.
Thanks, Katya. A very important post, helping people to understand the reality of occupation even in the “successful” West Bank.
The checkpoints really are one of the ugliest aspects of the occupation. They exist to humiliate and punish – to make life unbearable. My blood boils when I think of them.
I recommend ‘Checkpoint’, the 2003 documentary by Yoav Shamir – the Israeli filmaker who made ‘Defamation’ last year. It’s available as a torrent – search for “Machssomim Checkpoint”. Witness the banality of evil. It should be compulsory viewing.
My blood boils when I think of those poor families having Passover dinner and being blown to bits.
Julian have you explained why you faked those statistics yet?
I’ll presume you’re talking about the Passover Massacre – and suggesting that somehow justifies the checkpoints.
Have you seen ‘Checkpoint’? It’s devastatingly clear the checkpoints are not about security, they’re punitive.
If you believe they are about security then, given suicide bombing has been abandoned, the wall and checkpoints should have been dismantled. They have not.
I refuse to prioritise jewish Israeli suffering over Palestinian suffering Julian. They’re both equally offensive, and equally unnecessary. One party responds beyond all proportion to all action by the other, in the name of maintaining an illegal occupation.
Do you honestly believe suicide bombing would have been employed if Israel had ended the occupation? Suicide bombing is a militant resistance, and suicide. Tragic for the victim(s) AND the bomber.
“It’s devastatingly clear the checkpoints are not about security, they’re punitive.”
How is this devastatingly clear, Sumud?
Or let me ask a bit provocatively:
Did the Second Intifada stop in 2004 because the Palestinians in the West Bank were finally fed up with blowing themselves up in Israeli busses, markets and discos and so suddenly decided to abandone the suicide bombing?
And likewise: did Hamas in January 2009 suddenly stopped launching thousand rockets because it decided on his own accord to leave the Southern Israeli communities in peace?
of course : did Hamas …. stop launching thousands of rockets …
Go ask the Women in Black about the punitive checkpoints, Jonah.
You continue to peddle the old racist line about “the terrorist mindset of Arabs”. It doesn’t seem to penetrate that daily humiliation at checkpoints is designed to fill Palestinians so full of frustration and rage that they think of turning to terrorism. The checkpoints don’t contribute to Israeli security, they undermine it by creating a hostile population. Which is then demonized by Zionist apologists for their “terrorist mindset.”
You go live under occupation and stand for hours every day at one of these checkpoints just for a chance at minimum wage labor to feed your family. Then tell us how it’s all worth it for the sake of Israel’s “security.”
The problem is the Israeli mindset that considers the murder of thousands a good price to pay for a sense of “security” that the victims of their crimes may be too intimidated to retaliate.
In 71 BC, after the Spartacus war, the Romans crucified six thousand captured slaves along the Appian Way, so Romans would feel secure that their own slaves wouldn’t rise up. Later, they crucified the Jewish terrorists in order to intimidate the occupied population.
Go back in time and cheer for the Romans pounding nails into the Jews, Jonah, because you are their moral heir.
Hamas stopped the rocket fire (or nearly all of it) in mid 2008.
But using your logic, would it be a good idea if Palestinians could acquire enough rockets to bombard Israel and kill 1000 civilians? Would it change Israeli behavior for the better and if so, should the Palestinians be encouraged to proceed?
Hamas also offered Israel a peace treaty after they won the parliamentary elections, but Israel said, no, we prefer war. Then they bitch when a tiny bit of the war manages to hit them.
I can agree with you that the checkpoints do humiliate the Palestinian population and prevent them from living a normal and free live. But I don’t jump so fast as you to the conclusion that it’s only Israel’s fault and responsability. I consider the checkpoits rather the inevitable consequence of Palestinian terror activities against Israeli citizens, in the sense that they considerably help to prevent Palstinian extremists to carry out their bombing attacks. The checkpoints are unjust as the presence of military in Palestinian villages and tows, but the responsibility of this situation lies with the extremist groups which through their actions and intentions hold hostage an entire their entire people. Take away the terror and all the checkpoints will disappear because there would be no more justification for them. The same for the security fence.
“In 71 BC, after the Spartacus war, the Romans crucified six thousand captured slaves along the Appian Way, so Romans would feel secure that their own slaves wouldn’t rise up. Later, they crucified the Jewish terrorists in order to intimidate the occupied population.”
Did the slaves were out to kill indiscriminately as many Roman men, women, children as possible, as the Hamas and Fatah terrorists do?
“Go back in time and cheer for the Romans pounding nails into the Jews, Jonah, because you are their moral heir.”
Old wretched attempt to put the Jews in the corner of the executioners.
Hamas decided to end the truce, blaming Israel for its decision.
link to news.bbc.co.uk
Here, Jonah, if the sadistic nature of the checkpoints is still not clear: link to haaretz.com
It is not “punitive” because these people have done nothing to be punished for. Israel is trying to make life so miserable for the population that they leave so settlers can move in.
The old lie: “take away the terror.”
No, when the PA takes away the terror, the checkpoints simply proliferate, proving that terror is only the Israeli excuse. Because “the Arabs have a terrorist mindset” and if you take away the checkpoints they will only resort to terror again and Israel has the right to do anything to ensure its “security.”
When Israel stops killing, maybe people will stop pointing out the fact that they are executioners.
I assume that you approve of the Roman crucifixion of the Jewish terrorist zealots, given that they were indiscriminately killing Roman men, women and children, but also Jewish civilians who refused to join their terrorist movement against the Roman occupation.
I see that you also approve of the Romans enslaving millions of the victims of their wars, in which they indiscriminately killed “barbarian” men, women and children in order to expand their settlements and increase their supply of slaves. The idea that slavery is wrong and slaves have the right to resist with violence is clearly contrary to the Zionist mindset.
You need to decide which side you are on: freedom or slavery? Liberation or oppression? And the answer doesn’t depend on which side happens to be Jews.
The BBC article is fairer than your summary–the Israelis never lifted the blockade.
The Hamas truce was unilateral, and never honored by Israel. Of course Israel is to blame. Israel keeps killing Palestinians. It keeps destroying Gaza. It is an ongoing war against a captive population.
The fact is, there is nothing Hamas can do to appease Israeli hostility, nothing but cut their own throats. Truce, ceasefire, it doesn’t matter, Israel will never let Gaza be free.
Palestinians don’t have the right to defend themselves.
Security is only for Jews.
You would be totally right if the barrier wasn’t built to stop terrorists carrying out their evil deeds. I consider policies based on the the principle “struggle by all means”, which includes all kind of violent terrorist activities, not only punitive, but even a threat to life. Sadly enough, who is now paying for these (self-)destructive policies is the Palestinian population itself. I suggest the Palestinian leaders to show finally some courage and to jump without any other hesitation in direct talks with Israel. For the sake of their people. Blocking further the negotiations, while boycotting and delegitimazing the state with which you are supposed to want to reach a peace agreement, demostrates nothing else than a flagrant ominous attempt to sabote the very peace efforts. I can not understand this attitude if not assuming that peace in truth is not in the priorities of Palestinian leaders. But I still hope I’m wrong.
My posting is related to potsherd number 53.
Jonah – the segregation barrier was built to confiscate more Palestinian land. “terrorism” was only the excuse. The Israeli left proposed such a barrier years before it was built, but the notion was rejected by the establishment as they supposed it would serve as a de facto border on the Green Line, beyond which Israel could not expand. Then the settler faction realized it could be used as a means of cutting off Palestinians from their own land by building it far east of the Green Line.
Are you stuck in 2002? Have you not heard of the protests in places like Bi’lin, against the land confiscations caused by the wall? Like the fact that the Israeli courts ruled that the only reason for the route of the wall was to cut off the land so it could be seized by the nearby expanding land-hungry settlement? Like the fact that the wall is still there despite the ruling of the court, because the IDF rules the West Bank and the settlers run the IDF, and the entire wall is just part of a giant real estate scheme?
Which is why that “peace” will never happen, simply because there is too much money invested in seizing Palestinian land.
Not terrorism. Plain old greed.
Potsherd,
he may not fully agree with you (but maybe you with him ;-)
link to terrorism-info.org.il
Hamas calls for end to suicide bombing.
link to guardian.co.uk
Hamas is to abandon its use of suicide bombers, who have killed almost 300 Israelis, in any future confrontations with Israel, its activists have told The Observer.
The Islamic group, which leads the Palestinian Authority, says, however, that it may resort to other forms of violence if there is no progress towards Palestinian statehood.
Yihiyeh Musa, a Hamas member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, said Hamas had moved into a ‘new era’ which did not require suicide attacks.
‘The suicide bombings happened in an exceptional period and they have now stopped,’ he said. ‘They came to an end as a change of belief.
“You would be totally right if the barrier wasn’t built to stop terrorists carrying out their evil deeds.”
He is right because the barrier wasn’t built to stop terrorists carrying out their evil deeds. If it was, it would:
a) Not cut up to 10 km into Palestinian territory
b) be so porous that 3000 Palestinians are able to climb over or around it every day
“I suggest the Palestinian leaders to show finally some courage and to jump without any other hesitation in direct talks with Israel.”
“Blocking further the negotiations, while boycotting and delegitimazing the state with which you are supposed to want to reach a peace agreement, demostrates nothing else than a flagrant ominous attempt to sabote the very peace efforts.”
I see a boycott is in bad faith, but a blockade is an olive branch right Jonah?
Please explain how does stealing land, expanding illegal settlement, evicting Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem, while occupying and preventing the creation of a state with which you are supposed to want to reach a peace agreement, demonstrate a commitment to peace efforts?
“I can not understand this attitude if not assuming that peace in truth is not in the priorities of Palestinian leaders.”
I’m sure the Nazis were also perplexed as to why the Jews in the Warsaw Ghent weren’t blowing them kisses.
It’s a mystery isn’t it Jonah?
BTW. You’re talking points are circa 2003. Maybe it’s time to upgrade? Just a suggestion.
“Hamas decided to end the truce, blaming Israel for its decision.”
False.
1.Israel broke the ceasefire on Nivember 4 th,when they killed 6 Palestinisns in raid on Gaza.
2. Israel sources lied in that article because thror own reports concluded that Hamas had been very careful to observe the ceasefire.
3. Israel agreed to lift the blockade as part of the ceasefire agreement, but 4 months layer still refused to do so.
4. If Hamas had launched a raid into Israel and killed 6 Israelis, Israel would have declared the truce over.
5. Israel violated the ceasefire because as Tzipi Livni said, a long ceasefire was not in Israel’s strategic interests.
6. Hamas proposed a return to the ceasefire on December 18. Israel rejected the proposal.
7. The side that breaks the ceasefire doesn’t get to decide that it is still in existence.
Israel admits: “No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire” FULL INTERVIEW
link to youtube.com
Israel admits, There was NO Hamas in the UNRWA school
link to youtube.com
Israel admits War Crimes
link to youtube.com
Who Broke The Cease Fire – Hamas or Israel 2008
link to youtube.com
“I consider the checkpoits rather the inevitable consequence of Palestinian terror activities against Israeli citizens, in the sense that they considerably help to prevent Palstinian extremists to carry out their bombing attacks. ”
False. They are the inevitable consequence of occupation. In fact, as has been demonstrated in Iraq and Afghanistan, check points make matters worse.
The checkpoints are unjust as the presence of military in Palestinian villages and tows, but the responsibility of this situation lies with the extremist groups which through their actions and intentions hold hostage an entire their entire people. Take away the terror and all the checkpoints will disappear because there would be no more justification for them. The same for the security fence.
“Did the slaves were out to kill indiscriminately as many Roman men, women, children as possible, as the Hamas and Fatah terrorists do?”
Israel certainly does. As we saw in Gaza, there is nothing indiscriminate about Israel’s targeting of civilians.
“Old wretched attempt to put the Jews in the corner of the executioners.”
If the shoe fits….
“of course : did Hamas …. stop launching thousands of rockets …”
Israel admits: “No Hamas rockets were fired during ceasefire” FULL INTERVIEW
link to youtube.com
jonah ~ have you actually ‘checkpoint’?
Schmok linked to an online version here:
link to schmok.blogsport.eu
The checkpoints are all over the West Bank, not just associated with settlements. The Wall snakes for hundreds of extra kilometres, gobbling up 8.5% of Palestine, and in some cases encircling villages entirely. They’re just two elements of the closure system that cut the West Bank/East Jerusalem in multiple small cantons (bantustans). Some of this IS related to security but there is much more at play. The Wall is a deliberate attempt to impose a border – to shift the green line east. The checkpoints / barriers / trenches are largely punitive, designed to make life as unpleasant as possible in the hope it will drives Palestinians out altogether.
” Take away the terror and all the checkpoints will disappear because there would be no more justification for them. The same for the security fence.”
jonah you’re being totally naive, or disingenuous. Can you tell me why construction of The Wall continues despite the fact suicide bombing largely ended 4-5 years ago?
link to en.wikipedia.org
You lack perspective on who is doing the killing, and why. It took Palestinian militant 15 years of suicide bombing to kill 789 Israelis. Israel killed nearly double that many people in Gaza in 22 days. And for what? To maintain an illegal occupation.
Thankfully the era of suicide bombings is over. You claim that closure will end when the terror ends, but where is this “terror”? The only terror I know of in the Occupied Territories currently is the IDF attacking non-violent protestors, the settlers burning down mosques and terrorising Palestinian villages and farmers and the IAF/IDF periodically attacking / invading Gaza. Did you know in the year after the Gaza Massacre Israel killed 90+ Gazans, and Gazans didn’t cause a single Israeli casualty? You state yourself the rocket attacks are largely over.
So who is violent? Whose security is violated continually? Why do the IDF repeatedly enter Area A despite the fact the PA is supposed to have total autonomy over this area?
“”“Go back in time and cheer for the Romans pounding nails into the Jews, Jonah, because you are their moral heir.”
Old wretched attempt to put the Jews in the corner of the executioners.”
Again you resort to making unfounded accusations, rather than addressing the points people have raised. You’re being intellectually lazy.
Bradley,
Did you have a look in the video above, or did you prefer to ignore it?
link to terrorism-info.org.il
The suicide bombings stopped because of the wall and counterterrorist measures. The Second Intifada entered thus in 2006 in the next terrorist escalation: rocket fire.
Or so says the Israel government source. Are you that gullible? Or just determined to cling to falsehood.
And the 2nd Intifada and the wall have nothing to do with rocket fire. There has been NO rocket fire from the WB, across the segregation wall.
The rocket fire from Gaza is not terrorism but warfare, in response to the war waged on Hamas by Israel.
“Please explain how does stealing land, expanding illegal settlement, evicting Palestinians from their homes in Jerusalem, while occupying and preventing the creation of a state with which you are supposed to want to reach a peace agreement, demonstrate a commitment to peace efforts?”
Israel has frozen large part of the settlement construction for a period of 10 months in order to relaunch the peace negotiations. But Palestinians hope to get more by persisting in their maximalist claims. They should, if they believe that they will succeed with the old uncompromising attitude. I don’t believe it.
“You’re being intellectually lazy.”
I can not answer to all your accusations and insinuations, Sumud &Co. The many twisted arbitrary historical comparisons established by your friends are not always worth to be countered.
Ignoring for a moment all of the exceptions to the “freeze”, if Israel were serious at all about reaching an agreement, it would simply stop creating “facts on the ground” that will preclude any possibility of a peaceful settlement. Stopping settlement construction – period, not for 10 months – is not a favour or a concession; it is a sine qua non for a negotiated settlement. Of course it is already too late. Forty years of settlement-construction (approved and promoted by all Israeli governments) has already made the creation of a viable Palestinian state in the WB impossible. An Israeli government serious about peace would at least cause no further harm and discuss how it might deal with the immense damage it has already caused – to Palestinian life and livelihood and to the chances for a peaceful solution.
The effectiveness of the wall at stopping suicide bombing seems a teensy bit questionable–
link to lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com
” Can you tell me why construction of The Wall continues despite the fact suicide bombing largely ended 4-5 years ago?”
Can the suicide bombing not be resumed again due to a new change of strategy in the unending Palestinian “struggle by all means”? I mean: why should Israel trust the word of potential or actual terrorists?
Jonah:
Palestinians have a legitimate claim to all of the land of Israel. It was stolen from them, and that is not something to forget, when you call those people terrorists.
They used to sit and watch the sunset on their former homes where the Israeli project-housing is being constructed.
Jonah, is suicide bombing any worse than white phosphorus bombing raids on a civilian population?
Shmuel,
I think Israel doesn’t believe anymore in unilateral steps taken in favour of the “counterparty” (in fact the enemy). The unilateral withdrawal from Lebanon and from Gaza has proved to be a wrong decision which Israel doesn’t want to repeat again. In both cases it has strengthened the radical forces (Hamas and Hezbollah) which immediately filled the power vacuum and seided the opportunity to launch their terrorist attacks against Israel.
Israel can afford today other sensitive decisions only through direct negotiations with the Palestinians leading to a really solid and durable peace. The rest is tantamount to surrender again to a policy of appeasement that gives no guarantee of success, but rather comes at the expense of the very existence of Israel.
Chu,
“Palestinians have a legitimate claim to all of the land of Israel.”
at least you’re honest, unlike other supporters of the Palestinians.
“launch their terrorist attacks against Israel”???
How many Israeli cities does Hamas occupy? How many Hezbollah divisions are on Israeli soil?
Israel seems to have no conception of doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do. They want their victims to pay ransom for resistitution of their own goods, their own rights, their own freedom.
Israel’s ultimate excuse: because you can’t ever prove a negative, Israel can’t ever be sure someone MIGHT carry out some attack on them, thus can’t ever make peace.
This is elevating paranoia to the status of policy.
Making excuses for intellectual laziness.
“How many Israeli cities does Hamas occupy? How many Hezbollah divisions are on Israeli soil?”
In 2008 nearly one million Israelis in the South were under terrorist threat by the rockets of Hamas &Co. In the meanwhile Hamass’ principale sponsor Iran is supplying Hamas with upgraded rockets with increasing range and accuracy – and uttering on a regular basis annihilation treaths against Israel.
Do you deny this evidence too, Potsherd?
jonah – your reasoning smacks a little of Hasbara 101.
Are you aware of the 2008 Hamas/Israel ceasefire which preceded the Gaza Massacre? It was succeeding, until Israel broke it on Nov 4, 2008. By Israel’s own intelligence assessment Hamas observed the ceasefire. The very few rockets that were fired came from non-Hamas splinter groups.
link to en.wikipedia.org
Israel’s end of the bargain was to end the blockade, a deal they reneged on, instead choosing to break the ceasefire, ban foreign journalists, escalate and attack.
If your heart is breaking for the citizens of Sderot – I can understand that – but you must ask why Israel broke a successful ceasefire.
The problem is, whenever peace comes too close, whenever the Palestinians are too reasonable, Israel responds with military violence. Isn’t it clear by now Israel wants Palestinian land and resources, and not peace? It is the historical imperative of zionism.
“Foiling Another Palestinian “Peace Offensive”: Behind the bloodbath in Gaza”
link to normanfinkelstein.com
PS: I’ve forgiven you for calling me a holocaust denier. You didn’t apologise but came close enough, thanks.
Israel’s “freeze” on settlement construction is a hoax. Building is still going on, and the authorities barely try to stop it.
And why should the Palestinians settle for less than justice? Why should they compromise and give up what should be theirs, just because Israel wants to take it from them.
btw: using language like “maximalist”, the trademarked blathering of the hypocrite Richard Witty, is not likely to be persuasive here.
“Chu,
“Palestinians have a legitimate claim to all of the land of Israel.”
at least you’re honest, unlike other supporters of the Palestinians.”– Jonah
Lots of Palestinian supporters think Palestinians have a right of return. The two state solution, if that is what they end up with, is a compromise, a concession to ethnic cleansing and bigotry. It might be the practical way to go (though these days even the 2 state solution seems pretty remote), but the truly fair solution would involve both sides living in the same land.
In fact, I think that even if Palestinians decide to go for the two state solution they should use their right of return as a gigantic bargaining chip and not simply let it go. It’s this nonsense that they have no such right that leads people to talk about Barak’s “generous offer” at Camp David (which Shlomo Ben Ami admits was inadequate).
“The suicide bombings stopped because of the wall and counterterrorist measures. ”
False.
If 3 thousand people a day can find their way past tht wall, then surely, even one suicide bomber would have found a way if they were so inclined.
”The Second Intifada entered thus in 2006 in the next terrorist escalation: rocket fire.”
False. Israel were already using Gaza for target practive, having fired more shelld into Gaza between 2005-2006 than all the rocekts fired from Gaza.
”The many twisted arbitrary historical comparisons established by your friends are not always worth to be countered.”
Translation: The Hasbara motehr ship doesn’t have talking points to counter all your facts.
”mean: why should Israel trust the word of potential or actual terrorists?”
The same reason why Palestinians should trust the word of potential or actual mass murdering, apartheid, criminal, rogue state.
“under terrorist threat” From bottle rockets and firecrackers. Oooh, scary!
And threats! Terrorist attack words!
Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran altogether constitute less than 1% of the threat to Israel than Israel poses to its neighbors and victims. Yet they whine and cringe and drag hundreds of photographers to witness a chicken coop with a teensy rocket sticking out of the roof, and moan about “terrorist threats”.
More Israelis are killed on their highways every year than die from “terrorist attacks”. More Israelis drown on their beaches than die in “terrorist attacks.”
But paranoid Israelis use the excuse of these “threats” to devastate entire countries, slaughter thousands and imprison millions. You hold up a gnat and expect the world to tremble in awe at the threats you face and excuse the reign of murder that goes by the hateful name of Israel.
“The Hasbara Mother-Ship” Parliment Schmuckadelic? Its funny because its true.
Sumud,
how many rockets and mortar shells were fired from the midst of Gaza City and its neighborhood since Israel’s withdrawal in 2005 till the end of 2008? More than five thousands – 2378 only in 2008, despite the ceasefire. Besides, every reasonable person knows that the Jihadists need the truce as tactical ceasefire (“hudna”) in order to reorganize and rearm in the prospect of a new round of war against the enemy. Don’t have to kid ourself, Sumud.
How is it that you repeatedly demand from me to apologize (for something you’ve wrongly imagined), but in the same time you and your fellows excell in the apology of Jihadist fighters of the ilk of Hamas and Co. whose charter states among other things?
“The Islamic Resistance Movement is one link in the chain of jihad in confronting the Zionist invasion. It is connected and linked to the [courageous] uprising of the martyr ‘Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam and his brethren the jihad fighters of the Muslim Brotherhood in the year 1936. It is further related and connected to another link, [namely] the jihad of the Palestinians, the efforts and jihad of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war, and the jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and afterwards. Although these links are far apart, and although the continuity of jihad was interrupted by obstacles placed in the path of the jihad fighters by those who circle in the orbit of Zionism, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to realize the promise of Allah, no matter how long it takes. The Prophet, Allah’s prayer and peace be upon him, says: “The hour of judgment shall not come until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them, so that the Jews hide behind trees and stones, and each tree and stone will say: ‘Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him,’ except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews.” (Recorded in the Hadith collections of Bukhari and Muslim).” (Article 7)
Ah, the charter again.
Newsflash: Hamas is a radical religious movement that glorifies violence and finds inspiration in scripture. Like all radical movements, it’s charter is a fire-and-brimstone “inspirational” document, and not a realpolitik platform extolling the virtues of compromise and pacifism.
Nasty stuff, but hardly an indication of its desire or ability to find pragmatic solutions to its problems – including the problem of its own popularity (not nearly as high even in Gaza, as Zionist apologists would have us believe – despite Israel’s best efforts to radicalise Gazans). As with the PLO, the charter “issue” is just another excuse to deny Palestinian rights, while continuing to create “facts of the ground” that will undermine the possibility of any future settlement.
It’s not as if anything Hamas has said is nastier or more extreme than anything any founder of Israel has said.
And Hamas hasn’t even ethnically cleansed a single Israeli village. The same can’t be said for their Zionist counterparts.
Absolutely, Chaos.
Focusing on this article of the Hamas charter implies a cartoon understanding (intentional or otherwise) of both Palestinian and Israeli societies.
I’ve taken to calling it “Saturday morning cartoon,” Shmuel, if you’re aware of the US cultural fixture (and maybe it’s common in the rest of the world). It’s like Americans honestly actually think that war plays out like an episode of GI Joe. Complete with a coterminous merchandising campaign (Hummers, anyone?)
“how many rockets and mortar shells were fired from the midst of Gaza City and its neighborhood since Israel’s withdrawal in 2005 till the end of 2008″
Which is less than half the number of shells that were fired by Israel into Gaza over the same period.
7,700 alone between Septber 2005 and May 2006, despite the “unilateral” withdrawl.
Tzipi Livni declared to the world that a long ceasefire was not in Israel’s strategic interests, meaning that Israel prefers land theft over peace. The propaganda about Hamas arming themselves is just a smokescreen. Israel has the world’s 4th most powerful military and there has never been a war with Hamas.
What Israel calls wars have been one sided massacres.
Likud’s charter is identical to Hamas’ wothout the calls for Palestine’s destruction, which has already been achieved. In any case, Hamad removed the calls for destroying Israel from it’s manifesto in 2006, has called for a 2 state solution and has accepted the Arab peace proposal.
Israel has rejected all those offers.
“Which is less than half the number of shells that were fired by Israel into Gaza over the same period. ”
Source, Shingo? (but not al-jazeera please)
From June 2006, meaning this figure is over less than 10 months.
“The IDF has fired more than 7,700 shells at northern Gaza since the Israeli withdrawal in September 2005, creating a problem of unexploded ordnance in heavily populated areas.”
link to hrw.org
Here you go again Jonah.
“During the same time period, from September 2005 through May 2007, the IDF fired more than 14,600 155mm artillery shells into Gaza. Shells fired close to populated areas killed 59 people and wounded 270, most if not all of them civilians. ”
link to hrw.org
Thank you for the link, Shingo (nothing new, anyway). Did you read the HRW-report interely or only selectively?
“The 146-page report, “Indiscriminate Fire: Palestinian Rocket Attacks on Israel and Israeli Artillery Shelling in the Gaza Strip,” finds that both Palestinian armed groups and the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) have shown insufficient regard for civilian life. Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah’s al-Aqsa Brigades, and the Popular Resistance Committees, say the deliberate attacks on civilians with locally made and highly inaccurate rockets, known as Qassams, are reprisals for Israeli actions – but reprisals against civilians are always illegal.”
The report is very clear and balanced about the responsibilities of both sides of the conflict. About the Palestinian it states:
“The Human Rights Watch report found that Palestinian armed groups have deliberately targeted and launched indiscriminate attacks against Israeli civilians in violation of the laws of war. In addition to inflicting scores of casualties, the attacks have caused property damage and created a pervasive climate of fear in affected Israeli communities.”
About the IDF it points out:
“Israelis in turn failed to take all feasible precautions to minimize civilian casualties from artillery fire and, in at least one case, its strikes were indiscriminate. Other times, the evidence suggested that the attacks were disproportionate, causing expected civilian loss that was excessive compared to any anticipated military gain.”
I consider this approach fair, much more than the Goldstone report. It appears clear that BOTH sides consider themselves involved in a real war and that BOTH commit war crimes.
So how can you condemn only the Israeli actions as war crimes while justifying those of the Palestinian groups as “legitimate resistance”? This kind of biased morality is flawed.
“Did you read the HRW-report interely or only selectively?”
I read it entirely which is why I can tell you your subsequent argument is pathetic and lame.
”I consider this approach fair, much more than the Goldstone report. “‘
The conclusions are the same.
”It appears clear that BOTH sides consider themselves involved in a real war and that BOTH commit war crimes.”
So did the Goldstone report.
“‘So how can you condemn only the Israeli actions as war crimes while justifying those of the Palestinian groups as “legitimate resistance”?”
You seem to have forgotten why posted these numbers. You complained about the number fo rockets fired into Israel and I answered you by sying that Israel had firede more than double as many into Gaza in the same time frame (closer to 4 times in fact). You then asked for evidence which I provided and now you’re pretending like it’s not news.
So in answer to your question, how can I condemn only the Israeli actions as war crimes while justifying those of the Palestinian groups as “legitimate resistance”. Simple. Israel doesn’t need to be in the occupied territories. Isrel has no legimate reason to be there. Israel remains out of greed and a desire to steal land and expand it’s territory. The Palestinians on the other hand, are being occupied and DO have a legitmate right to be there and to resist occupation.
The only thing flaed is your pathological ideology that blinds you to reason.
“You then asked for evidence which I provided and now you’re pretending like it’s not news.”
The exact figures were new for me, but not the report itself.
“So did the Goldstone report.
The conclusions are the same.”
The Goldstone is to 95 percent fixed on Israel’s actions, but addresses Hamas’ war crimes only in one chapter (XXIV). The report is totally biased, as the whole organizations that stays behind.
“So in answer to your question, how can I condemn only the Israeli actions as war crimes while justifying those of the Palestinian groups as “legitimate resistance”.Simple. Israel doesn’t need to be in the occupied territories. Isrel has no legimate reason to be there. Israel remains out of greed and a desire to steal land and expand it’s territory.”
Here we are again, Shingo. Israel pulled completely out from the Gaza strip in 2005. The rockets never stopped, on the contrary, they increased in number. This demostrates that’s not about “occupation” – only an alibi to pursue the never ending war against Israel itself. Are you really so naiv or disingenuous to believe that the terrorist activities will stop if Israel would withdraw behind the armistice lines of 1948? No, they will increase, again and again.
Let’s see if the Palestinians are first able to build a national unity government that can support the idea of making peace with Israel in its claimed 1967-borders. They are not even able to this common basic understanding. This is the woodworm in your and the Palestinian mind-set.
”The Goldstone is to 95 percent fixed on Israel’s actions, but addresses Hamas’ war crimes only in one chapter (XXIV). The report is totally biased, as the whole organizations that stays behind.”
That’s becasue Israel commited 95% of the war crimes. Just look at the respective body counts and the respective damage to civilian infrastructure.
BTW. Have you actually read the report?
“‘Shingo. Israel pulled completely out from the Gaza strip in 2005.”
False. Here is a report about the Gaza withdrawl by Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar in their scholarly study of the occupation “Lords of the Land”.
“After Israel withdrew it’s forces from Gaza, in August 2005, the ruined territory was not released for even a single day from Israel’s military grip, or from the price of the occupation that the inhabitants pay every day. Israel left behind scotched earth, devastated services, and people with nearly a present or a future. The Jewish settlements were destroyed in an ungenerous move by an unenlightened occupier, which in fact continues to control the territory and kill and harass it’s inhabitants, by means of it’s formidable military might.”
Hear that Jonah. Not for a single day did Israel release Gaza from it’s grip.
”The rockets never stopped, on the contrary, they increased in number. ”
False. From August 2004, Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire with Israel.
Hamas won the election and continued to observe the unilateralceasefire until Israel attacked Gaza in June 2006 killing 220 civilians.
Meanwhile Israel continued to fire 300 shells a day at Gaza from the day it withdrew.
”Are you really so naiv or disingenuous to believe that the terrorist activities will stop if Israel would withdraw behind the armistice lines of 1948?”
Yes, they have stopped when Hamas declared an end to them in 2004.
”Let’s see if the Palestinians are first able to build a national unity government that can support the idea of making peace with Israel in its claimed 1967-borders. ”
Let’s see if Israel let’s them or forces Fatah to undertake anotehr coup to overthrow Hamas insted, like they did in 2007.
”They are not even able to this common basic understanding. ”
The understanding is there, but Israel fear a unity government. They simply want to isolate Fatah so that they can negotiate the best deal from a weakened leader like Abbas.
In 2005 Hamas signed the Cairo Declaration of 2005 and the National Reconciliation Document, which, as interpreted by Haniyeh and Maschaal, means that Hamas “fully respects” the previous agreements between the Palestinians and Israel.
In February, 2006, Khaled Mashaal said: “(Hamas) cannot oppose the unified Arab stance expressed in the resolution passed by the Arab League summit. That resolution, approved in Beirut, speaks of recognizing Israel and normalizing relations with it in exchange for a full withdrawal and a solution to the refugee problem”.
Any other Hasbara BS you want me to debunk?
“Any other Hasbara BS you want me to debunk?”
BS – You make piles of one-sided selective statements and quotes, simply pretending to be right. You are kidding no one, Shingo, at the most yourself.
“Here is a report about the Gaza withdrawl by Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar in their scholarly study of the occupation “Lords of the Land”.”
Does this report include also this?
link to haaretz.com
link to ynetnews.com
”You are kidding no one, Shingo, at the most yourself.”
Yes Jonah, I can see the long que of people hanging on your every Hasbara word.
”Does this report include also this?”
Sadly, your haaretz report didn;t mentino that most of those green houses were already destroyed by the settlers as they left.
The New York Times reported:
“‘About half the greenhouses in the Israeli settlements in Gaza have already been dismantled by their owners, who have given up waiting to see if the government was going to come up with extra payment as an inducement to leave them behind, say senior officials working on the coordination of this summer’s Israeli pullout from Gaza.(…)”
The looting of what remained was carried out by individuals, and in no way was it encouraged by the Palestinian Authority.
As for your second link, it quotes the Israeli foreign minister, so we can laugh that one off pretty easily.
Come on Jonah, you can do better.
“False. From August 2004, Hamas observed a unilateral ceasefire with Israel.”
link to forbes.com
“The understanding is there, but Israel fear a unity government. They simply want to isolate Fatah so that they can negotiate the best deal from a weakened leader like Abbas.”
“In 2005 Hamas signed the Cairo Declaration of 2005 and the National Reconciliation Document, which, as interpreted by Haniyeh and Maschaal, means that Hamas “fully respects” the previous agreements between the Palestinians and Israel.”
Very funny: it’s always the evil Zionists who succeed to split the Palestinian little angels.
link to english.peopledaily.com.cn
Stop your propaganda, Shingo.
Jonah – this is another SO FUCKING WHAT?
The issue is war crimes. Ransacking abandoned greenhouses is not a war crime. It is irrelevant.
You are just lamely playing the “They Suck” card, suggesting that because some people in Gaza ripped up the Israeli greenhouses, they are morally depraved, never to be trusted, and they certainly must have committed all kinds of war crimes, and might even commit war crimes in the futures.
Have you ever heard of the logical fallacy “Tu Quoque”?
I suggest you read up on the techniques of rhetoric before you get further into the debunking business.
”http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2005/09/12/afx2217389.html”
Was the rocket fired by Hamas? No.
Thanks for proving my point Jonah.
”Very funny: it’s always the evil Zionists who succeed to split the Palestinian little angels.
Yes, and you can read about it here.
link to vanityfair.com
”Stop your propaganda, Shingo.”
I know how you hate to be educated, but you gotta start somewhere Jonah.
“Was the rocket fired by Hamas? No.”
That’s the way terrorists always play at the innocent. Shift the blame to others in order to hide their responsibilities – or hide behind others (civilians) in order to appear as the victim.
“Yes, and you can read about it here.”
I suppose you want me to believe that the inter-palestinian relations were always idyllic, isn’it? Really lovely angels.
link to video.google.com
By “the terrorists” you mean “all Arabs,” don’t you jonah?
Also, why was there a civil war against Hamas and Fatah, again?
Of course not, Chaos only these guys:
link to farm1.static.flickr.com
link to 4.bp.blogspot.com
“Of course not, Chaos only these guys”
I think these munchkins are particularly cute.
link to google.com.au
“That’s the way terrorists always play at the innocent. Shift the blame to others in order to hide their responsibilities - or hide behind others (civilians) in order to appear as the victim.”
In other words, you agree then that the massacre carried out by Barak Goldstein was the sole responsibility fo the Israeli government and that Israel is the product fo all the massacres and terrorist atatcks perpetrate by the Stern Gang and the Irgun, incluing the Strn Ganga’s attemtps top bomb London?
But then, we alrady know that Israel was founded on terrorism by terrorist gangs who’s leaders were so loved that they were elected to the highest office in the land. Israel is a monument to terrorism.
“I suppose you want me to believe that the inter-palestinian relations were always idyllic, isn’it? Really lovely angels.”
Yes, I know hwo the truth hurts Jonah.
This isn’t bad too
link to josiahe.files.wordpress.com
“This isn’t bad too”
Meanwhile your heros just murdered 20 unarmed passengers on the flotilla.
Job well done.
Whe the disengagement plan in 2005 was implemented, Shingo? You remember? On August 15.
What happened afterwards? You need only to read:
“September 24, 2005
Five Israelis were injured when Palestinian militants launched about 30 rockets on Israeli communities from the Gaza Strip. This attack followed an incident the previous day, in which 20 Palestinians, including 16 civilians, were killed when a vehicle carrying Qassam rockets exploded during a Hamas rally in Jabalya. The exact circumstances surrounding the incident are still unknown. To date, no evidence has been found to substantiate Hamas’ claim that Israeli interference was responsible for the accident.”
link to en.wikipedia.org
You can not assert without bluntly lying that Hamas was and is not behind the terror attacks against Israel. Only you believe in your self-deception.
“Job well done. ”
No, this is very bad and sad. But we have to know the real dynamics of facts. Surely there was a gunfight.
“What happened afterwards? You need only to read:”
Israel had fired several hundred shells into Gaza by that time.
What’s your point you fuckwit? did you see what your heros just did? The just massacred 20 unarmed civlians on the flotilla. No rockets there.
And how do you feel Julian pray the fuckssakes tell us how you feel about the parents of the 437 Gaza children killed in under three weeks by the black-hearted IDF?
HOW THE FUCK DOES THAT MAKE YOU FEEL?!!
Good and righteous in the blinded eyes of god huh?!
Julian’s a neoconservative, Taxi. Only white people are people to him.
Taxi, Julian is white supremacist troll, these guys believe in slavery so he doesnt give a fuck of brown skin children get massacred by whites.
If i ever meet you Julian i want to spit on your face, mother fucker asshole.
“Nits make lice.”
Well, when people sit down to dinner in a house they have stolen from other people at gunpoint, they shouldn’t be surprised when the gun comes back to point at them.
A Jewish white supremacist?
ROTFLMSJAO!!! Stocholm Syndrome.
The destabilizing narrative suggests that the checkpoints are demeaning, an imposition. There is, however, a more constructive narrative: The checkpoints are an opportunity for socializing with friends and family, for bonding with colleagues and neighbours, for nuturing relationships. Remove the gates, the people flow efficiently through them, the opportunity for human contact is greatly diminshed and the Palestinians are all the poorer for it.
What a beautiful yarn, green yarn.
When I read the post after writing it, the second narrative made me feel so good that I just know it must be true! ;-)
You know Witty is just DYING of jealousy that he didn’t write that one first. No, wait, that’s maximalist language. Rather, Witty feels a strange sense of loss and displacement that his message of reconciliation and mutual understanding has been hijacked by those who would seek to mock liberal Zionists like himself instead of seeking mutually beneficial solutions. The issue of checkpoints pains him deeply but since Palestinians do not have national sovereignty, Israel cannot be said to be acting in violation of international law.
>> You know Witty is just DYING of jealousy… No, wait, that’s maximalist language. Rather, Witty feels a strange sense of loss and displacement …
Nice recovery. ;-)
You can see the documentation “Checkpoint – Machssomim” (2003) by Yoav Shamir here: link to schmok.blogsport.eu