When a civilian passenger ship comes under military attack in international waters, should we be surprised — or even critical — when some of the passengers mount a defense?
According to CNN, which has made itself into a mouthpiece for the Israeli Defense Forces, the flotilla massacre was a “skirmish”, which the dictionary defines as a “minor battle in war, as one between small forces.”
CNN/the IDF would have the world believe that Israel’s elite commandos unexpectedly met an armed force on the decks of the Mavi Marmara. Some of the Israeli soldiers were so afraid they jumped into the sea to save themselves from Arabic-speaking assailants, Israeli officials claimed.
Yet Today’s Zaman reports:
Turkish officials have denied claims leveled by Israeli authorities that weapons were onboard one of the six aid ships attacked by Israel on Monday.
Officials from the Customs Undersecretariat said every passenger was searched before getting on the ship with the help of X-ray machines and metal detectors. Senior officials from the undersecretariat said Israel’s allegations were tantamount to “complete nonsense.”
Israel and its lackeys in the US media might try to characterize what happened in the Mediterranean today as an “incident,” or “skirmish,” or an “ambush.”
But if the IDF met “unexpected resistance,” what exactly did they expect? A reception committee with tea and breakfast? Didn’t they see the resistance the Viva Palestina convoy put up last year when challenged by Egyptian security forces?
The live video feed coming from the Mavi Marmara during its voyage from Turkey would have provided invaluable intelligence for the IDF and I have little doubt that they watched it carefully. A number of observations the Israelis must have made may have significantly influenced their calculations and miscalculations.
One of the striking demographic features of the group of passengers was the average age — having watched many hours of the feed, I’d put the average age at about 35-40 with a significant number of “retirees” — this was not a bunch of young hotheads.
Also, the group was overwhelmingly Middle Eastern and Turkish and male. The risk that Israeli violence would result in the death of another Rachel Corrie was relatively low.
Put together these two factors — the expectation that the age of the passengers might make them somewhat less volatile and the fact that they largely came from countries that Israel has less concern about offending — and you get the perfect cocktail for Israeli hubris.
As for the fact that elite Israeli soldiers can in one instant be portrayed as invincible and yet the next as hapless victims — that is a paradox that can be resolved only in the minds of Israelis.
In the eyes of much of the world, this was a massacre, the dead will be seen as martyrs, and the moral bankruptcy of the Jewish state revealed in sharper clarity than ever before.
Remember all the hoopla in the mainstream media, especially from our governments, when Iran dared to detain some British soldiers who may or not may have been in international waters? Some 2 years ago or so?
Remind me again of how many of those trained and uniformed soldiers were killed brutally by their Iranian attackers.
But now Israel is murdering 10 to 20 innocent people what 70 kilometers outside of any jurisdiction, with several european members of parliament among the attacked, and all the Obamas and Merkels are silent. Fucking traitors.
I have read the statements issued by various world leaders, by far, the mildest came from the US and Germany, followed by the UK and France (Sarkozy called it a disproportional use of force).
Meanwhile, NATO has issued a statement calling for all the facts to be known and sending its condolences to the bereaved families.
Yes Avi that’s also my feeling: The usual enablers, the governments of US/UK/Germany, are cowards once again. And remember, there are european members of parliament on those ships.
I mean not standing up to the Zionist religious murder regime when it denied european MoPs entry into Gaza is one thing, but essentially caving in when they are attacked by state terrorists deep within international waters is a whole other thing.
These were ships flying among others the flags of the US and of Turkey. NATO should mount an disarmament of the religious murder regime in Tel Aviv immediately.
What I find telling is that the Miliband brothers have been especially vocal after this tragedy, but were mute when in government and the Gaza massacre happened (David in particular, seeing as he was FM).
That’s because when in office, there is no forceful pro-justice lobby pressuring those politicians. The Israel-lobby has the field all to itself.
Every single one of us can change that with calls, emails, vigils, donations etc. (and more very possibly)
All of what I said previously on this tragedy still stands, it was premeditated brutal murder of civilians (In response to some other posts under Reports – 19 people killed, 30-60 injured in Israeli attack on freedom flotilla) –
They chose the cover of night to create as much chaos and fear as possible. This is done with the intent of causing harm, the use of military equipment and attack, as if they were facing an armed enemy. It won’t wash, and it is just one more act which seals their isolation from humanity, and it is not just worthy of condemnation but prosecution.
“It seems that the activists tried to wrest the weapons away from the Israeli Soldiers from initial reports.” (retort)
I believe that is excuse #4 for killing with supposed impunity, want to float another story? #3 is that the “crowd of people rushed them,” #2 is that someone was armed, and #1 is the real reason “they were there and breathing.”
Did you think I was using irony, parody and satire? I assure you I am not, these are excuses for killing with impunity. They can and do place weapons, plant them, to say they were attacked – that is another well used excuse.
The idea of rushing to take weapons means to plant the idea of violent militancy. There may have been a change of course to avoid the interception of the Israeli military, but there was no attempt to disarm boarded and armed military personnel – there was just plain cold blooded murder. I know this might be hard for the tender sensibilities of some, but if you have not been following the wanton murder of Palestinians or it was just something theoretical (perhaps not purposefully, you just cannot fathom the depravity) now you have some more evidence that they have no compunction of committing the same atrocities on equally unarmed civilians.
“Three wounded Israeli soldiers according to Galei Tzahal.”
They probably shot themselves (friendly fire) in their rush to harm unarmed civilians, or just the common accidental injury associated with an operation of this nature (flying glass, falling, equipment malfunction, etc.).
“This was not what they planned for or desired.”
Yes Elliot, I know this is what you are trying to communicate, that the Israelis had no intention to murder anyone, you made that clear by thrice reporting that the Israelis were attacked on board the boat. The Israelis “never” intend to kill anyone, it just sort of happens when you come with live ammunition on a boat and start firing.
My question to you is when are you going to learn that this is standard Israeli bullshit? There is no militancy except that of illegally jumping on boats in international water and opening fire – I know that is hard for you to understand. It must be difficult for you to understand, because as I said above you have now given us several common excuses that have been used repeatedly for killing Palestinians and now used in this scenario.
As I said before, and I am getting tired of repeating myself – there is nothing more militant and violent than what the Israelis did here, understand? The repetition of false stories like this are done so that you can come to the conclusion that you made –
“This was not what they planned for or desired.
On the other hand, the Palestinians on board the boats may have chosen not to surrender to the illegal Israeli attack.
Avi – I know feelings are running high but let’s stay civil. We’re on the same side.”
So you have been an obedient and logical reader, you have swallowed the hasbara whole, so no one can say that you are incapable of not coming to the conclusion that the Israelis want you to come to. The Israelis never “desire or plan” to kill the Palestinians either, but that is what happens when you indiscriminately bomb, shoot live rounds into crowds, drop phosphorous on civilian centers, shoot missiles into populations, fire from tanks, etc.
No MRW, according to Elliot, the civilians were crouched waiting to spring on the poor illegal attackers, even though they had no weapons. Also, do not forget, the Israelis never plan to kill anyone, ever, that is why so many are murdered. The Israelis always have to watch out for the militant and violent Muslims, even when they are firing at them on boats – they just fanatically rush the Israelis. They want to be martyred, and go to paradise – it is that “religion of death thing.” But never forget, the Israelis never want to do any harm (I hope you are following my sarcasm, and this time it is sarcasm, meant to be so biting that it takes someones head clear off their shoulders).
One is the setup for the other Avi, the announcement of having airconditioned tents etc. is meant to make you believe there is no harm intended. Than, when you get the impression there is no harm intended, when the guns start blazing it is plausible denial for such things as “the activists attacked us!” So what you are supposed to come away with is “we wanted a camp cookout with toasted marshmallows for the activists, but they attacked us, so we had to kill them. Do you think we would have gone through the trouble of providing for their comfort is we planned to kill them?” It is just immense horse shit.
Yes Mooser, you picked up on the thought processes that were supposed to enter the minds of the activists, and I picked up on what their bullshit is to the general public. (this is why I strongly warned these murderers earlier that they better not do this, because it was easy to see what was coming)
There is one of two things going on here with these setups, either they think the general public is incapable of seeing through their garbage, or they are so mentally deficient at this point (ziocaine) that their decrepit minds can’t think of any other subterfuge. One thing is for sure, if others cannot see through it I will make sure that they do by pounding it home, and I do not tire taking their thinly veiled clothing off and making them naked in public.
“…and Rahm in israel…”
Well radii, this was part of the agenda that Rahm had on his visit, to let NuttyYahoo know that anything they did to the flotilla activists was just fine with him (Obama). Than they laughed together, and YahooNut said “we have set it up great, we made everyone feel comfortable with airconditioned tents and fine foods waiting, so we can use it as plausible denial and say that the activists attacked us. Plus, it has an added bonus, with a few deaths it will serve as a warning for anyone else trying this in the future (and we also get to hide the damage we did to Gaza from others).” Than they posed after Rahm said to nutty “come on down!” (to the Whitehouse) –
“Israel is claiming that there was resistance and small firearms were seized.”
Yes, these are the weapons that were planted by the Israelis, which I spoke about earlier. These liars never change their methods.
Also (including all of the above) lets not forget that the Israelis in the past have dressed up as Palestinians, or others, and have posed as those who have violently acted as agent provocateurs (hence, perhaps some of the “resistance”). Plus the same Israeli blather about “Hamas connections, Al Quaeda, and terrorist connections” used by the propaganda machine, which is nothing but tired old nonsense.
What you have here is piracy at high seas, and not even comparable to piracy of the past (and presently in places like Somalia) which in many instances was a form of survival. Here you have piracy to maintain illegal oppression of the Palestinians, to starve over a million people in Gaza – so there is no pretension to nobility here in this act of murderous piracy.
I might also add that this piracy is not enacted by any oppressed people, it is not done in the face of official or state oppression – but it is done by the fourth most powerful armed forces on the planet. There are no “underdogs” acting from the Israeli side, no matter how much reference is made to the Holocaust. It begs for a repeat of what Buber said on his 80th birthday, nothing has changed it is getting worse – that is choosing the way of Hitler which is to murder millions with impunity, it is the same spirit.
I agree completely. The Israeli Government an the IDF could have made the stand in broad daylight. They chose to go in and kill as part of their intent.
VR – and if the passengers did attempt to wrest the weapons away from the hijackers? So what’s wrong with that?
Israel, with its upsidedown moral compass, is insisting that its troops have the “right to defend themselves.” No. When you attempt to board a ship in order to seize it, its cargo and passengers, this is a hostile, aggressive act. It is called attacking.
The people who are the victims of the attack are the ones with the right to defend themselves. The passengers are the defenders, the hijacking troops are the attackers.
And if they did, well, then, good for them!
Potsherd, there is absolutely nothing wrong with self-defense, all I am saying is that this is not how it will be played in MSM. The Israelis will turn it into an attack on them, even though they entered the sea and attacked the boats. They will marry it to a long history of supposed terrorism, never revealing what is really happening to the Palestinians in Gaza. So no one, especially not me opposes self-defense.
I seriously doubt that the passengers of the ship “attacked” anyone, if anything they defended themselves – because if you remember a “white flag” was raised which is a sign of surrender, but even though the white flag was held high you could still hear the Israeli weapons being fired in the background. So the surrender meant nothing to the Israelis, because they wanted to kill the defenseless passengers with their brand of impunity.
If you also remember, the women, children, and elderly were told to go to go below. The Israelis were firing indiscriminately on the upper deck, so those above were merely defending those below, and were not going to allow the Israelis to go below with guns blazing like what was occurring on the upper deck.
There is no “right to defend” for troops attacking defenseless passengers with live fire, but this is what they will claim. However, this is not what you will hear in the media, you will hear the barrage of bullshit that has always been given as a steady diet to the US population and the world at large. Just because you and I know this does not mean that the general population knows and will hear the same points, they never will hear anything of the sort – they will only hear about the “murderous terrorists attacking the law abiding IDF.”
As an example, one of the videos being shown is from above taken by the Israelis – it shows them on the deck as a form of subterfuge, not being able to tell one party from another. So that every attack that is taking place by the Israelis can be posed as coming from the civilian passengers. It is similar to the “job” that Colin Powell did with “weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq, everything became suspect – fire engines became transport vehicles for missiles, common building projects became bases holding weapons of mass destruction, etc. The keep feeding the people the same bullshit, in fact, listening to the Israelis is like going back to the verbiage used by the horrific Bush administration (not that Obama’s admin. is that far away from it). The very images will be tampered with to give wrong impressions.
Israel, with its upsidedown moral compass, is insisting that its troops have the “right to defend themselves.” No. When you attempt to board a ship in order to seize it, its cargo and passengers, this is a hostile, aggressive act. It is called attacking.
Israel was acting with no more self-defense than a man who premeditated the hijacking of a plane, stating his intention of doing so at “any cost,” and then when when actually carrying it out, complaining that the passengers attempting to resist the infiltration and take-over were the actual “terrorists” who he subsequently killed in “self-defense.”
If I commit a carjacking, and you resist and I then kill you in the process, how sympathetic will the judge be to me claim of self defense? This horseshit is designed as preformulated hasbara for those already looking for an excuse to justify the unjustifiable and demonise the innocent. Anybody with 1/2 a braincell and a bit of morality knows its Orwellian power speak. I fear this is part of some sort of endgame involving Iran, outright genocide, more aggresive war. I see the Mighty US. Govt. Taking a hrd line here, so hard it needs viagra. I think this may have been ok’d by the admin. With Emmanuel’s trip. I see the Dogs of war on the horizon.
this is not over, not by a long way. CNN said IDF boarded all the ships, but only the Turkish ship put up resistance. Yes, and Santa Claus is real.
Turkey has an election in a short time.
The group that organized the Turkish component of the flotilla supports Erdogan’s opposition party.
Bibi (and Hillary) are pissed that Erdogan has done a deal with Iran; they will do what they can to weaken or destroy Erdogan.
Look for an attack on Lebanon or Turkey or perhaps Syria in the not too distant future.
Israel is a psychotic rogue boxed into a corner, it’s armed to the teeth, which complicates but does not prevent Israel from lying thru those same teeth. A cornered bully will inevitably lash out.
Things are going to get very much worse before Israel is finally brought to its knees.
Abraham did not slay his own son, he sacrificed the innocent ram caught in the thicket to placate his psychopathic god.
I apologize for the off topic commentary.
Al-Jazeera English has just reported that the Al-Jazeera reporter (Seen in footage posted on Ali-Abunimah’s blog) who was reporting earlier today from Ashdod was attacked, beaten up by settlers.
Meanwhile, the UN has called for an emergency Security Council meeting.
The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, has called the attack on the flotilla a violation of international law and is calling for an independent probe into the attack.
Protests around the world. The Palestinians in Israel have organized protests across the country.
In the occupied territories similar protests have taken place; several Palestinians including children have been injured by live fire from Israeli forces.
Protesters in Jordan have called on the government to cut diplomatic ties with Israel.
Note that Ali Abunihma’s headline reads “[...] Ashkelon live shot”. (I’m assuming he mistakenly put “Ashkelon”).
But, the Al-Jazeera screen capture states in Arabic that it is “Live: Port of Asdod [the original Arabic name of the town, now Hebrewized to 'Ashdod']“.
Haaretz;
Netanyahu: I regret Gaza flotilla deaths, but Israeli troops had right to self-defense
Yeah if send a murder squad to your house, 50 km away from mine, and you dare to hit them with a frying pan, they damn well should have the right to self-defense by murdering you in front of your loved ones…
Disarm the religious murder regime now!
Surreal. From the talkbacks at Ha’aretz, an American Zionist:
I have to quote Mooser: “This is a brain on Ziocaine.”
Interestingly, the votes on this comment are running more than 2-1 against.
Level-headedness, after that obvious lack of fire discipline? The officer in charge should be court martialed for gross incompetence. Unfortunately, he never will be.
Well, he should be hanged. Not for incompetence, though.
For murder during piracy; war crime, and obeying illegal orders.
After the Amritsar massacre in 1919, British rule in India lasted nearly another 30 years. But its end was foreordained after that massacre.
Yes Ali Abunimah said he received a message from an SA Anti-Aparthied activist that said this was Israel’s Sharpville massacre.
Israel’s attack in international waters violates International Law.
That’s the point to hit home in the coming days and weeks: Israels murder squad had no business on those ships in the first place. This is the crime, nothing else.
Perhaps the murder of these activists can be tried in the court of International law.
Well it should be, but every international structure relies on the good-will of the major powers. Which either support Israel directly (USA, UK, France) or at least seem to not care enough like China, Russia…
Almost certainly.
Well, every murder regime has its fans. Blinded people can defend everything, no matter how sadistic it is.
The good thing is, the blind are outnumbered by those who know murder when they see it. Now if only this silent majority would have the guts to unite against the murderers…
Was this action intended as the final act of divorce for the Israeli/Turkish ‘alliance’?
I’ve just found and old guardian piece; Israel is in denial over Turkish rage
link to guardian.co.uk
from last October, notable points include;
“, some Israeli politicians tried to play down the rift, apparently hoping to patch things up. But others, including commentator Amir Oren, looked for different reasons to explain Turkey’s behaviour, refusing to believe Gaza could be the cause. “Erdogan is aiming for a large-scale reconciliation with old enemies: the Armenians, the Syrians, the Greek Cypriots and the Kurds. Israel is a burden for him, not an asset,” Oren said.”
”
Meanwhile, Ofra Bangio, a Turkey expert at Tel Aviv University, told the Christian Science Monitor that Turkey’s domestic and foreign policy calculations were shifting as it strengthened its ties with Iraq, Syria and other leading Arab world countries and turned away from an unwelcoming European Union. “In Turkish foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu’s ideological framework, Israel doesn’t play a central role,” Bengio said.
A senior Israeli foreign ministry official, speaking to the Haaretz newspaper after an emergency meeting to discuss the crisis with Turkey, was even more pessimistic. “It may be that the reality has changed and that the strategic ties we thought existed have simply ended,” the official said. “Maybe we need to be the ones who initiate renewed thinking regarding our ties and must adopt response measures.”
Response measures, could the apparent insantity of effectively committing and act of War against the Turks really be simply the Zionist equivalent of a pre-emptive dear john letter. Whereas discreet actions in domestic Turkish politics against Erdogan and in support of the military might seem more logical ( not much more moral , more logical ), It would be easy to see this as an attack on Turkey and how would Israel gain from also turning the Turkish military estabolishment against them with a ‘national pride’ issue, murdering Turkish civilians?
is this a case of leave no bridges, unburned onwards and upwards, never gonna need to look back?
The Israel apologists like to claim that the hostility is just from Erdogan’s government, and that the Turkish military continues to want good relations with Israel.
But, if I know anything about the Turkish military (and I am a retired lieutenant commander who has spent a lot of time in Turkey,) this attack on the Turkish flag was all that was needed to make Turkish officers implacable enemies of Israel.
It seems like the Israelis calculated that the relation with Turkey had already deteriorated beyond repair, and decisively severed it themselves.
Thousands of Turks were already protesting outside the Israeli Consulate in Istanbul even before the massacre occurred.
In any case, as Woodward observes, it was either the ship carrying Middle Eastern and Turkish males, as opposed to the Western passengers and others with American flags resulting in another Rachel Corrie.
Israel had to send a message, and the choice was clear.
I would consider the Turkish Army a far more dangerous beast than the IDF, which seems to have a congential deficiency with Hubris and cannot fight for any length of time or tolerate the casualties inherent in Army vs Army warfare.
The fact that two of these commandos let their firearms be taken by unarmed civilians speaks volumes. What kind of training had they had?
Training in bullying a helpless population.
You said a mouthful there. Remeber Gallipoli?
Interesting. Statement by R. T. Erdogan, Turkish
Prime Minister (unprepared to judge by the ad hoc language, but with clear characterization of Israeli gov’t as “state terrorists” and “liars”)
“By attacking ships that were only carrying humanitarian aid [Israel] violated international law. The Israeli authorities are lying about the circumstances of the attack. There were no weapons on the ship. I am terminating my visit to Chile. The aggression committed by Israel constitutes state terrorism and a violation of international law.
I want the entire World to know that the aim [of the ships] was entirely humanitarian. The ships had been searched. They didn’t carry anyone except civilians and aid workers. They were carrying white flags.
The ships contained no objects except pain killers, bread, pasta, toys and building materials. The Israeli assertion about “weapons” is not true. It is a lie.
Not only citizens of the Republic of Turkey but also aid volunteers from 32 other countries were aboard the ship. There were also Parliament members.”
Prime Minister Erdogan said that Turkey could not sit silent without reacting to “inhumane state terrorism” and added to the intention of Israeli authorities:
“As much as you support illegality, we will support legality, Gaza and Palestine. We request valid information about the wounded and the dead and the immediate delivery of the bodies of those who lost their life.
As soon as I am back in Turkey I will inform in detail both our Assembly and the international community.
It is impossible to remain an unemotional person in the face of all the happenings.
Our Jewish citizens in our country are under our security guarantee. I am asking my people to be sensitive to that.
The democratic reactions must take place with dignity.
We’ll discuss and evaluate this in Parliament. I will make a more detailed statement at the Parliamentarian group meeting.”
Spoken like a true statesman, not like a coward as is the case with Obama Merkel etc…
Israel Soldiers being lynched onboard the Mavi Marmara
Whatever happened to these state-employed killers, they had no business landing on that boat. Fuck off.
Stow the propaganda, you child murdering bullshit artist.
Israel’s Nuremberg is coming.
Hey, I thought Witty said he was taking two weeks off from Mondoweiss — what gives?
Guys, I think this guy is just trying to provide pro-Israel sources of news information. I doubt he actually believes that rubbish.
Better headline:
BRAVE PASSENGERS FIGHT OFF PIRATE ATTACK ON THE MAVI MARMARA
Good one potsherd!
Those passengers are like the Americans on Flight 93, pushing back crazy religious terrorists intent on murdering innocent people.
Well, that was very informative. Remind me not to rappell(sp?) onto someone else’s boat without an invite.
Look at the ugly little bullies. They behave with the video evidence they before shamelessly denied as the false “peace” activists acted against the soldiers by lynching them. Little bullies blinded by their hatred and their vulgar self-righteousness.
The murderers you call soldiers have no business landing on that ship. Now fuck off you war crime apologist. Have fun burning in hell with Hitlers fans and the rest of your ilk.
what a ridiculous name for a bigot like you
They behave with the video evidence they before shamelessly denied as the false “peace” activists acted against the soldiers by lynching them
How else should armed hijackers be treated?
Little bullies blinded by their hatred and their vulgar self-righteousness.
Thanks for taking a look in the mirror.
You’ve come quite close to identifying yourself and your kind.
I read an excellent comment by Jason Ditz which I will paraphase.
“Israeli claims of self-defense as an excuse for shooting passengers on the flotilla are akin to a bank robber claiming self-defense for shooting a clerk for throwing a roll of pennies at him.”
Damn right.
Good one.
Or that tanker captain everyone is calling a hero because he resisted the Somali pirates.
There’s a tremendous amount of behind-the-scenes intrigue we don’t yet know — or may never know.
Did the Turkish government tell Israel that it supported the flotilla and to let it sail on to Gaza? Did the Israeli government respond by using lethal force on that boat? Was it payback for the Brazil-Turkish deal on Iran that took the wind out of the sails of an IDF attack on Iran?
Did Rahm Emanuel know that Bibi had authorized lethal force when he visited Israel? If so, did he share that with his boss Obama?
If so, would Obama care?
I assume not, because he has proved virtually at every chance that he doesn’t give a rats ass about poor folk being killed, be it by US predators or by Israeli murder squads.
JP, agree completely. My point is that there’s something much bigger behind this. I think Israel saw this as a provocation by the Turkish government and intentionally killed people to send a message to the Turks not to f*#% with Israel.
Oscar,
One thing we know for sure:
Avigdor Lieberman: Israel must stop flotilla ‘at any cost’
link to mondoweiss.net
Of course your point is valid. It’s normal Israeli (and sometimes Jewish chauvinist, look at the lunatics in Max Blumenthal’s videos) behaviour to be as brutal and bloody as possible to show the evildoers that you “don’t fuck with the Jews” (as some terrorloving Israelsupporter put it in Blumenthal’s “Feeling the hate in NYC” put it). Jabotinskys Iron Wall doctrine also comes to mind.
But might, if used in unjust ways, produces countermight which will one day hopefully crash this religious murder regime, making it accountable for its crime. Every terrorist regime thinks it’s invincible. But look out Netanyahoo, the next Nuremberg will happen eventually.
And don’t I feel prophetic now!
Hard to pin this on a few bad apples, if it ever comes to that.
Avi, the cost will be tremendous. I fully expect Turkey to announce a flotilla of 100 ships escorted by the Turkish navy. this is the beginning of the endgame for the siege on Gaza. Game over.
“I fully expect Turkey to announce a flotilla of 100 ships escorted by the Turkish navy. ”
The realist part of me doubts that. But it would be the right thing to do and would have much potential in terms of forcing the Israelis to cave a little.
If they’d sent an armed escort to begin with, things would have gone differently. “Israel only understands force.”
“If they’d sent an armed escort to begin with, things would have gone differently.”
Most definitely. Same with the Liberty, if there had been combat vessels and aircraft around, those men would still live today.
So of course the armed escort would be great. The question is if Turkey and/or other countries would risk it. I definitely hope so.
Turks aren’t wimps.
I’m not saying they are, but maybe their power elites are, like most power elites.
For granted, they rightfully rejected American use of their territory before and during Americas criminal invasion of Iraq (as far as I recall). That’s much more than all those compliant fuckers like Berlin and London and so on. But Turkeys strategy there did not put it’s own soldiers in harms’ way. Securing a flotilla would.
But I still hope they do it.
ColinMurray has posted an interesting link to a hebrew report of unease from the IDF brass at 7.55 pm yesterday, maybe Yahoo should have consulted them before declaring war on Turkey.
on the ‘Defensive ‘Times’ ‘ thread,
good no-one noticed I forgot the damn link.
Lieberman praised the soldiers who he said “showed great restraint and bravery while under attack by hooligans, anarchists and terror supporters”.
Strange.
At one point they praise the “bravery” of the Israeli pirate intruders, and the next they claim them to be the victims “ambushed” and “lynched” who were so scared as to jump into the sea.
Israel’s neurosis must be acting up again.
Professor Finkelstein was just on RT, Russia Today (in English. Available on Livestation.com).
The newscaster interrupted him when he started talking about Israel’s threats to both Iran and Lebanon. (Paraphrased) “This is a [...] lunatic country [...] a country with 200 to 300 nuclear warheads and it is threatening Iran and Lebanon with an attack”.
Thanks Norman.
Hillary slept right through this 3 a.m. phonecall. She was quick to condemn North Korea, but HIL LARY, dear, Israel IS the U.S.’s North Korea! Stop protecting Israel’s ass!
Hillary’s getting her Aipac briefing. That’s why here statement is late and non-existant so far. If the victims were Israeli her mouth would be flapping ad nauseum and she would be reiterating “shame on you!” on every cable network.
Speaking of “shame on you”….shame on you! President Obama for not having the bawls to condemn this barbaric act!
LOL! That’s brilliant. Is truly is Hillary’s 3 AM wake up call, but it’s coming from AIPAC with her talking points. LMAO and ROTFL.
Quartet-representative Tony Blair, on the other hand, has produced a whole three lines of crying and I-want-to-change-things. So everything will be all right in the end. Anyone here who wants the link?
I’d like to see it.
It’s performances like these which earned him an award from Israel.
Here he is. Trust him, he will solve it.
Blair should be tried at The Hague, what’s he doin’ getting precious Israel-approved traitor badges?
If not tried at the Hague, how about tied to a lamp-post in Bhagdad and left to natural justice.
When running to be the Democratic Party candidate for President, both Senator Clinton and Senator Edwards, made it very clear they supported Israel’s occupation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Of course, both Clinton and Edwards are practicing Methodists who don’t mind killing off Palestinian Christians, even fellow Methodists.
although this may be a bit off-topic I have to register my disappointment that having checked the Rapture Ready Rapture Index, it’s gone down ?!?
“Rapture Index 172
Net Change -1
Updated May 31, 2010″,
doesn’t god watch the news, is there some important football game on somewhere or what?
“is there some important football game on somewhere or what?”
Speaking of which, I’m glad the flotilla organizers were smart enough not to land in Gaza after June 11, when half of Europe is glued to their TVs because of the soccer world championshio in South Africa.
But Israel will plan something for then. Like the killing spree on the evening of 9/11. And on 4 Nov 2008, election day: yep, breaking the cease-fire with Gaza.
No doubt about that.
Maybe something which brings all those protesting, justice-demanding maximalists back into the pro-Israel line. Maybe the Mossad or some paramilitary right-wing Zionist religious group are planning something very ugly right now.
In two weeks the Israeli team and fans are gonna be facing a wall of international anger, I’m sure much of it will be uninformed naked rage at all things Israeli, hasbara paradise, not good for anybody.
I’d like to teach the world to hate,
in perfect harmony .
I’d like to destroy all with my arms,
until you all agree.
(That you all hate Jooooooos)
I’d like to see the world in flames
(let the world hate Jooooooos)
All down upon your knees,
in front of me,
For peace is all I seeek.
let the world hate Jooooooos
That’s the song I hear
let the world live in fear
cos the world hates Jooooooos
A song of peace that demons bay
And never goes away
cos the world hates Jooooooos
cos the world hates Jooooooos
see, told you so, look em all bouncing off the walls, anti-semites all of em. thats why we’ve got fight them all.
“In two weeks the Israeli team and fans are gonna be facing a wall of international anger”
Israel doesn’t play the world cup, if you were referring to that. But of course I hope their athletes face boycotts wherever they go.
I stand corrected, I only looked as far as the French and the Germans for traditional rivalries, I didn’t realise Israel flunked qualifying.
That’s cheered me up, hasbara free World Cup hooray.
All Israeli soccer is good for is of course most of the fans spouting racist shit against Arabs.
When Beitar Jerusalem was considering hiring an Arab player, there was massive backlash from their racist fans and the team captain had to apologize to these Jewish supremacists and/or Arab-haters and assure them that there will be no sand niggers playing for pure-blooded Beitar.
Just pointing out, in case anyone happens to be near a rally or protest, that “Gaza will be free” scans nicely into the lyrics of “We Shall Overcome.”
The weapons confiscated were mainly slingshots, brooms, and whatever was handy when the pirates attacked the Turkish ship.
link to youtube.com
The fact that the IDF was armed with live ammunition instead of crowd dispersal equipment really says it all.
BTW, in reference to all those motherfucking spokespeople who pay lip service to “wanting to know all the facts before making judgement”:
When the Goldstone report gave them the facts, what did they do with it after the last Gaza massacre? Nothing. These traitors are not interested in facts, they are only interested in not offending others who are higher in the power structure.
If, say over the coming 2 to 3 years, we could succesfully form a massive pro-justice lobby, joined and supported by the billions of people who don’t like murder and theft, lobbying all parts of society and political life, the next massacre by Israel would be the last one. Because then, the navies of half the world would tear the IDF apart.
Israel can’t afford to lift the siege. there is too much political capital riding on it. If the siege is lifted Hamas gets a boost that will kill Fatah. sumud, defiance, whatever. The killing was designed to send a message to anyone else thinking of joining a ship- pour encourager les autres.
Then Israel has effectively declared war on the rest of the world. Nobody is going to let Israel claim the goddamn Mediterranean Sea as their “territorial waters.”
“Nobody is going to let Israel claim the goddamn Mediterranean Sea as their “territorial waters.””
Sure? I mean, in theory, nobody should let Israeli murder agents use stolen passports of other countrie’s citizens like when they killed in Dhubai, but was Israel punished?
Not really.
Slight paraphrase from a comment I saw on DK ([] added):
“The israelis will do anything they want to do as long as they believe they can get away with it. I think that’s a good blueprint for predicting Israeli behavior on almost any issue.
If one starts using rules of rationality, all predictive power is unfortunately lost, since this element [rationality] was apparently de-selected in the course of the past 60+ years.
Oh yes, causality is tenuous too, unless one is willing to redefine what [the relation between "cause" and] “effect” means.”
And this goes to the heart of the points Woodward makes about the unbelievable self=wounding tactics deployed by Israel this morning: having all the intelligence they needed at their disposal, they still proceeded with the dumbest possible operational response, complete with dead people, front page bad publicity and seriously negative foreign relations repercussions. It’s almost as if they are intent on drinking a poisonous brew because the potion – noxious to everyone around – smells good to them.
Losing hold on both rationality and causality defines what serious insanity is. The only questions are how terminal is the malady, and how much more damage all around before the patient is brought under control.
“the dumbest possible operational response, complete with dead people, front page bad publicity”
It’s inhuman and criminal, sure. But maybe it is not dumb. Mafiosi do it all the time, they know that their interests are served when there are witnesses to their murders. Why do you think nobody rats on them?
agree completely. Israel is not dumb. And we should stop this nonsense about Israel being self-destructive. It’s other lands and peoples being destroyed by Israel. The Israelis are just fine. Never been better. They haven’t lost one dime in money or weapons pouring in from the US. It is wrong to view the worldwide condemnation of israel as AGAINST Israel’s self-interest. On the contrary, it plays perfectly into the phony victim status and phony anti-Semitism charges and siege mentality that have been their stock in trade for over 60 years now.
Actually, I think israel has descended to mafia-style “warfare” a while back, using their own brand of “lawfare’ to excuse the inexcusable. And yes, that law of the jungle has its own rules, which kind of make sense in an environment where the usual law and order tools do not apply (ie, that leaves only fear and greed as motivations for falling in line).
What I am saying though is that this action by israel did not follow rational rules of action – even by their own twisted logic. Neither would a self-respecting mafiosi condone taking such semi-suicidal actions. In this case, it’d seem to me that the repercussions die to the outrage generated by this action outweigh whatever benefits could be derived from instilling fear into the hearts of those they perceive as opponents.
Paul Woodward sees miscalculation as reason for using live fire. But I see evidence for both irrationality and a failure to understand the connection between cause and effect. The failures were both strategic and tactical, and yes, the element of hubris seems to be deeply embedded in the israeli military/political decision process.
In other words, the israeli collective has gone nuts, just as Abigail Abarbanel said in her perceptive article (potsherd has the link handy).
And nuts are dangerous unless a way is found to control their violent impulses.
If history is any guide, that control must come from outside. Israeli society has a shitty balance between an army of religious and supremacist nutcases and some thousand peace and justice advocates.
they still proceeded with the dumbest possible operational response, complete with dead people, front page bad publicity and seriously negative foreign relations repercussions.
It’s not dumb at all. Dumb would imply that the Israelis did not strategically calculate the commission and the ramifications of this massacre. By all the statements warning of the hijacking of the flotilla and Israeli official statements mentioning that the flotilla must be “stopped at all costs”, it is most certain that they did.
You can be sure that the Israelis think at least three times before carrying out any military act. Once, when the actual plan is drafted. Secondly, when it is analyzed under the scope of its effects on Israel’s image (or in terms of Hasbara). Thirdly, in terms of how much support America will provide the action, either by ignoring it or implicitly supporting it.
However, as has become common knowledge to most observers of the conflict and the Israelis themselves, American support is largely a guaranteed factor, and not worth stressing over when each successive US government is held at the knees by the purchased Congress.
I don’t disagree that Israelis plan ahead on several levels. I am only questioning the decision process based on the poor outcome to the actions they come up with. My point is that once hubris is allowed to enter into military thinking – no amount of pre-planning can protect from the tendency to over-react and mis-anticipate the predicted backlash.
And the reason the hubris is there in the first place is precisely because israel has been allowed to get away with atrocities and inhumane behavior that would be considered reprehensible in any other entity.
For too long they’ve been spared the rod of the civilized world (because of American provided cover) and have now become spoiled enough to where an original neurosis has developed into full blown psychosis. What we have on our hands now is a bit of a rabid dog, who may have once had lovable qualities. What to do, what to do?
Given the opportunity to kill people, Israelis lose all restraint and the ability to consider the consequences. Probably because, for so all, there have been no consequences.
The impunity train has reached the station.
More fallout:
“last year, in a little-noticed development, Israel conducted its first war games with Greece. Until Monday’s events, the two countries were in the midst of joint Air Force exercises that were scheduled to go through June 3. The Greek Foreign Ministry announced the postponement those exercises today, issuing a harsh statement condemning Israel’s actions on the Miva Marmara. ”
link to blog.foreignpolicy.com
Greece! Protesting an attack against Turkey!
This disgusting atrocity is uniting almost the whole damn world against Israel.
one of the ship’s captain’s was greek, and i’m guessing some of the protesters too.
Turkey vows to send more Gaza supply ships w/Turkish Navy:
UK’s Guardian website cites Israeli spokesman Shahar Arieli implying that they will try those of the activists they accuse of assaulting them. In international waters. In response to their invasion of the ships. Wow. Justice?
Just as with Dr. Finkelstein’s book on Operation Cast Lead where he pointed out that there were NO “battles,” there was no “skirmish” either as IKF (Israeli Killing Forces) murdered peace activists. The activists most likely reacted as anyone who’s about to be executed reacts. With desparation.
Imagine how different the media coverage would be if it was one of the countries that seem to get regularly demonized by the press. The condemnation would be 24/7 building to a fever pitch. That it is not tells you quite a bit about whose agenda is being served.
Regarding the political decision to stop the flotilla, I disagree. I would favor negotiating with Hamas regarding modalities of ending the siege and if those negotiations would fail I would end the siege unilaterally. (But I understand the attitude of those who wish to pressure Hamas, although I don’t think the siege has been successful.)
Regarding the operational decision to stop the flotilla while it was still outside the 3 mile limit. I don’t know the legality of such a move, but it seems that 3 miles would be insufficient time/distance to try to stop a boat.
and thus once the political decision had been made to stop the flotilla, attempting to stop it outside the territorial waters would have been necessary.
Regarding the modality of the operation: If the Israelis were trying to minimize casualties, which should have been one of the highest priorities, a nighttime commando raid of this sort, was very very stupid. As observed by Yossi Melman in Haaretz and Avi Trengo in Yediot Achronot.
Israel Must Be Disarmed
It’s an out-of-control rogue with psychotic tendencies and heavily armed. For the peace of the region and the world, Israel must be disarmed. Israel has a right to exist; it does NOT have a right to exist with weapons that it has demonstrated time and time again that it will use without regard to the sanctity of life, the norms of international law, or the expectations of civilized society.
J Street’s Jeremy ben Ami is calling for an “independent” Israeli commission to investigate the incident. link to jstreet.org
A credible, independent commission appointed by the Israeli government should provide the world with a full and complete report into the causes and circumstances surrounding the day’s events and establish responsibility for the violence and bloodshed.
ben Ami urges that
“It is up to our leaders to turn this crisis into a real push to end the conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians now – otherwise events will spin even further out of control. We will have more to say on how in the days ahead.”
I disagree.
That ship has left the dock.
It’s time for the international community to coalesce and call Israel to account for its continued disregard of international norms and civilized behavior.
Israel must be disarmed, its nuclear arsenal must be disbanded, it must relinquish all post-1967 land, and it must pay reparations to Gaza, Palestinians, and Lebanon.
Nothing less.
Look how hard so-called “world leaders” hesitated before punishing Nazi Germany. Hitler annexed Austria and forced the French out of the Rhinland without firing a shot.
Plus, Nazisms main components, meaning nationalism, socialism, social darwinism and even jew-hatred where popular (to varying degrees) inside the other political elites. Many of them, American and British, some academics even, viewed Nazi Germany for some time as a very progressive nation.
Same with Jewish supremacist Zionism (meaning Zionism existent as in Israel, not necessarily what Zionism could mean theoretically): Half the world thinks the Jews are a people (read some Shlomo Sand you morons!), half the west thinks the bible is more or less accurate. And half the west gladly adopts Israeli tactics in dealing with those evil maximalist terrorists who dare to defend their homeland from mercaneries and oil barons.
My point is, as long as the silent majority has not truly overtaken government, as long as it is occupied by cynical elites, there is no coalescong international community. Things like the flotilla and the various solidarity vigils popping up at many places are a good thing to start, but there’s a long way to go.
Nevertheless, sometime Netanyahoos Nuremberg will happen.
“Israel has a right to exist”
I think it’s certainly time that the movement STOP making this absurd and embarrassing concession.
No–Israel does NOT have a right to exist.
Ben-Ami thinks an Israeli investigation will yield the truth? What a useless git!
Does Ben-Ami not watch even the cheapest detective shows? If you charge a suspect investigating himself, you shouldn’t expect evidence to turn up. Which maybe is what Ben-Ami wants?!
The flotilla was nowhere near 3 miles, or 12 miles or even 20 miles of Israel’s territories waters.
The flotilla was in fact more than 60 miles out. So whoever is trying to sell you that loksh is taking you for a ride.
Every time I try and understand Israel and Israelis, it goes and does something like this. The disgust and horror I felt today is something I’ve rarely felt before. It just reinforces the perception that Israel is bat-shit crazy on par with North Korea and needs restraining.
I think this quote I found on Twitter sums it up perfectly
I don’t think Israel and its supporters realise the seriousness of what it did today. Attacking an aid ship resulting in the deaths of over a dozen people goes much further than I ever expected Israel to go.
Hi WJ,
The flotilla is not a super-tanker with a five mile stopping distance plus being a flotilla would entail going slower. Technically it is an act of international piracy at 63km from Israel , outside of the widest defintions of ‘territorial waters’ I have found at 24 nautical miles or 44.5 km. Does not the timing aspect with regard to American holidays, Yahoo’s visit etc seem more logical, they really seem to me to have expected the whole thing to be blown over by tommorrow, they could be right as far as mainstreet USA is concerned but I cannot see it all just going away with a sprinkle of magic dust from the Zion-Fairy.
A great article by Jonathan Cooke from Nazareth:
link to alternet.org
One of the many great points he makes is that by enforcing a press blackout, holding in custody all the journalists and activists detained on board the flotilla ships, coupled with the reluctance to issue official statements with an accurate death and wounded count, Israel is relying on its spokespeople to saturate the media with lies, until the incident falls from the headlines in two days or three.
Then, when the witnesses get a chance to speak up and describe what transpired aboard those ships, the world media, especially western media, would give them marginal coverage, if any. Thus, Israel would once again, have managed to massage the truth and spread its own propaganda.
And one more article:
link to alternet.org
Great article.
I thought that Hedy Epstein had skipped on the flotilla. Is she on the flotilla that was attacked?
I read conflicting reports. Some say she was, some say she wasn’t, but instead stayed behind in Cyprus.
The Irish Boat with a strong and connected Malaysian contingent is still on course and a couple of days away, might there be a round 2, will Israel finish the week at war with 3 other nations in addition to the usual.
link to aliabunimah.posterous.com
link to nrg.co.il
A shameless article in the Hebrew Maariv claims that a top military official said – on condition of anonymity – that the Israeli military, despite the unfortunate casualties, considers the Israeli raid of the ships to be a “powerful act of deterrence”. The official said, “We believe that we will deter more ships from reaching the “region”. He added ” We will operate in accordance with the same model, with tenacity and determination to fulfill the mission”.
Note that, the Rachel Corrie has departed Ireland and is on its way to Gaza.
The Nazis weren’t aware either that with every “operation” they came one step closer to Nuremberg.
What was Nuremberg? A show trial, really. The important point was that the Nazi regime had been violently obliterated. The trials were an afterthought.
The situation with Israel’s criminals is analogous. They will never be brought to justice so long as Israel exists as a state. Should Israel be demolished, there won’t be need of trials.
Good coverage by the Institute for Public Accuracy.
link to accuracy.org
I just saw Israeli pictures of the ‘captured weapons’. The vast majority are clearly kitchen implements (knives, an icepick) and mechanical tools (screwdriver, wrenches, fireaxes, etc), which every ship on the planet carries.
The only ridiculously non-innocuous items are around a dozen wooden sticks, several general utility folding knives, one switchblade, and one dagger. The big, bad IDF was ‘ambushed’ by these? These pictures are pathetic, especially the screwdriver (looks like my computer hardware screwdriver) laid perpendicular to the knives in the lower photo drawing attention (surely inadvertently) the patheticity of the arrangement.
pathetic IDF hasbara
Clearly these people were ready and prepared for battle with the IDF, which can stand proud with their backs straight in triumph over these trophies of their heroism and courage. Maybe they’ll put them into a military museum for Israeli children to see on school field trips.
[tour guide]: “and here we have an axe handle and a kitchen knife that an Al Qaeda humanitarian aid worker wielded against our brave defenders on the 30th of May, 2010. Our soldiers stopped them from running our blockade of Gaza and prevented them from delivering crutches, school desks, medical equipment and supplies, and food to lower Gaza’s 10% malnutrition rate. Let’s have a moment of silence to honor the warriors of the IDF, our finest citizens.”
The fact of the matter is that the activists would have been entirely within the law to kill 100% of the armed pirates illegally attacking and boarding their ships. That needs to be stressed.
@ GodsChosen May 31, 2010 at 4:25 pm
While this is true, and I certainly don’t blame them for fighting back, it was still a bad idea IMO. Taking this with a cup of salt since a complete and accurate story has not emerged, one thing that could have been done better was simply to throw the IDF over board as quickly as possible instead of having a brawl. That way they wouldn’t have been able to build up numbers.
They had an enormous number of people on board. It might have been possible to block passages to bridge and engine room long enough to get close to Gaza City.
The use of firehoses is a normal non-lethal stage of defense against pirates. Spray commandos as they scuttle down their lines from the helicopters. If you are going to resist with a knife, why not start with a firehose? Secure every external hatch. Make them blow through with explosives or use cutting torches.
Colin, you are right that it would be better defending a ship with a firehose or something non-lethal.
Even if there were a bazooka on board, Israel has no business searching a ship for weapons, 70 km off any coast.
But good job pointing out the craptacular propaganda.
Is it 70KM or miles?
I’m not sure exactly, I remember a figure in this range, somewhere between 50 and 70 miles or km. Doesn’t matter to me, because it’s definitely in international waters, even tie IDF propaganda admits that.
Notice how everything in that photo was laid on a (Is that Saudi Arabia’s flag?) flag with Arabic writing for better propaganda effect. Then of course, there’s the Kaffiya, which as Michelle Malkin and every ZioCon nut job knows is the favored head gear of terrorists….. blah blah blah…
How do we know that those sticks and knives were in fact on the ship, especially those ludicrous short pirate-like swords, whatever they’re called?
Maybe it was a ceremonial/symbolic sword carried around by some Arab. I don’t care, the Israeli death squad had no business with it.
Its called a Scimitar, you’re kidding, they actually displayed a Scimitar?
They also actually displayed a screw-wench. Even a 10 year-old could take apart this “public relations” idiocy.
Colin,
By the way, flags, any flag, usually needs a stick for it to be waved. Right? Those “sticks” look like they were taken (by the navy) from the flags.
Those were antisemitic flagsticks! I know it!
That’s a likely idea. They also could have been fire axe or mallet handles, i.e. with the heads removed. Either way, it will be interesting to see if they were improvised from normal shipboard equipment or were brought on by passengers.
“it will be interesting to see if they were improvised from normal shipboard equipment or were brought on by passengers.”
Why? What difference does it make? The passengers could have brought a bazooka on the ship, and it would have still been their right to defend themselves against killers coming from helicopters.
I like how a kaffiyeh is placed among the confiscated items… the deadliest weapon of all, ask Rachel Ray.
The Israeli government is run by a bunch of race-hating ethnic cleansers.
Quite a terrible Hasbara art installation, I must say.
Lazy composition, cliched theme and redundant use of “Islamist” motif.
Better job next time?
Like everything else Israel produces, this “work” was largely stolen wholesale. In this case, from the set of crappy American television shows like 24.
“1:45pm Security Council: The situation in the Middle East, including the Palestinian question. ”
Can someone get the video feed to work?
link to un.org
The statement by Turkey that it would send further relief ships to Gaza under protection of Turkish naval vessels is the best news in a long time. It will be wonderful if this actually comes to pass and I hope the Turkish navy will shoot first and ask questions later of an Israeli vessel comes anywhere within firing range.
Israel must be met with force.
I think it would be best if Israel shoots first. As it will.
That’s crazy. Violence should never be employed when there is no need. Do you want to be like the Israelis?
Turkish escort vessels will have absolutely no trouble successfully screening a convoy without being the first to use violence. Firehoses, firehoses, firehoses! Make smoke from the deck to drive away helicopters. Station Turkish soldiers on the decks with non-lethal riot gear, shields and batons. Use more firehoses!
And when Israel opens up with machine guns and American-made bombs in response to non-lethal attempts to repel further piracy, the Turkish military will have every justification to do the same.
In legal terms, the Turkish ship is Turkish territory. This means that the Israeli intrusion and subsequent massacre was nothing less than an act of war against the Turks.
There were recent announcements that Turkey plans to send dozens of aid vessels to Gaza now with navy reinforcements.
The Israelis have dug a nice big hole for themselves. Let’s see how they get out of this one.
They don’t.
Nice of the Israeli Navy to celebrate Memorial Day by re-enacting the attack on The USS.Liberty. I am really very upset today.
Craig Murray, a former British diplomat, sums up in a blog post the (il)legality of the whole operation. His blog is pretty awesome in general
Worth quoting, thanks Shafiq.
“A word on the legal position, which is very plain. To attack a foreign flagged vessel in international waters is illegal. It is not piracy, as the Israeli vessels carried a military commission. It is rather an act of illegal warfare.
Because the incident took place on the high seas does not mean however that international law is the only applicable law. The Law of the Sea is quite plain that, when an incident takes place
on a ship on the high seas (outside anybody’s territorial waters) the applicable law is that of the flag state of the ship on which the incident occurred. In legal terms, the Turkish ship was Turkish territory.
There are therefore two clear legal possibilities.
Possibility one is that the Israeli commandos were acting on behalf of the government of Israel in killing the activists on the ships. In that case Israel is in a position of war with Turkey, and the act falls under international jurisdiction as a war crime.
Possibility two is that, if the killings were not authorised Israeli military action, they were acts of murder under Turkish jurisdiction. If Israel does not consider itself in a position of war with Turkey, then it must hand over the commandos involved for trial in Turkey under Turkish law.
In brief, if Israel and Turkey are not at war, then it is Turkish law which is applicable to what happened on the ship. It is for Turkey, not Israel, to carry out any inquiry or investigation into events and to initiate any prosecutions. Israel is obliged to hand over indicted personnel for prosecution.”
I know it’s dangerous, but I hope Turkey acts on this and shows the world’s citizens how one stands up to this little religious murder regime.
There was plenty of outrage after Deir Yassin. Plenty after Sabra and Shatilla. Plenty after Defensive Shield and Cast Lead and all the other Israeli massacres and atrocities over the past 60+ years.
If the Palestinians can not drive up the price for Israeli aggression in terms of the Israeli body count, they are finished. This latest episode should expose the utter bankruptcy of non-violent means in dealing with the monsters of Israel.
We lost 10-20 heroes and courageous souls. For WHAT?
60 years is enough. Now the Israelis must start paying a price and paying in a currency they can understand. Blood.
I’ve never seen you around here. Are you an Israeli troll? Just asking.
Godschosen,
I don’t know if you’re sincere or if you’re merely an agent provocateur. Either way, you’re crossing a line here.
I’ve already reporting him and asked for a banning. He has clearly crossed an intolerable line.
avi
The israelis attacked civilians in international waters on a humanitarian aid flotilla (with US complicity) but I’m “crossing a line” to suggest that this deserves a violent response?
Forgive me–but that sounds pretty Dershowitzian to me.
That’s very original.
What took you Hasbara bots so long?
“Peaceful” “humanitarian” “aid” “activists”
link to jpost.com
Even if the humans on the boats would have been antisemitic space aliens, your murder squad has no business on the boat. Fuck off.
In other words: If you get on some boat in international waters and look like an army attack group, then you should not complain about antisemitic space aliens on that boat trying to harm you.
Why is there no violence reported on the other ships of the flotilla? Obviously because they didn’t want to lynch and kill anybody. The Israeli spokeman told they found weapons on board of the Mavi Marmara. Evidence will show. So, was this the supposed humanitarian aid, “justice” please?
Fuck off with the straw men. You don’t want get “lynched”? Don’t climb on ships you have no business of climbing on. It’s that simple.
Fuck you, you racist Jewish supremacist. A squad of jack-booted Zionist murders armed with assault weapons were in ZERO danger of being lynched after storming the deck of civilian ship and opening fire on anything that moved.
Which is slightly more dangerous than if they would have STAYED OFF THE SHIP completely and NOT COMMITTED AN ACT OF PIRACY in international waters!
Or really?
So I’ll take a bunch of armed men on my ship and head for the coasts of the rogue state that is the USA. But I will announce that my purpose is to bring humanitarian aid to the oppressed Black people of America living in their neglected ghettos. I will reject any offer by the American government to deliver the humanitarian aid by land and I will continue the journey to the final destination, despite the repeated calls by America to withdraw from my original intention. And when they will come on board my armed men will beat hard and throw over board those white racist American invaders and oppressors who only dare to invade my humanitarian ship. How do you dare to stop me, my weapons are for the justice, only for justice please!!! so imagine that.
The attack happened in international waters you sick Zionazi.
If it had happened in Israeli waters, you could at least have a little credibility to actually hijack the ship. You would have something called pretext, not the latest Israeli excuse for murdering innocent people. And you could have masturbated to dead Muslims all the same.
You already did just that, you fucking Zionist baby killer. You and your cult did it to Gaza.
More than three hundred children were murdered by you and your sick comrades.
Haha the US Coast guard at least can claim legitimate jurisdiction over their coast. Your parallel is flawed.
Nothing would change if the fact would have happen a couple of miles away, hypocrite.
Your terrorist states murders 20 activists in international waters, and we’re the hypocrites? Keep it up, Zionazi.
Actually, yes it would, jonah. Because when a military kills the cititzens of another country in international waters? That’s an act of war.
The geography is wrong, but go back in a time machine and have your activists try to deliver aid to the recently bombed black residents of Tulsa Oklahoma in 1921 and I will applaud them and condemn the racist US navy of the period for stopping this aid flotilla that occurred in some parallel universe.
Next analogy, please.
Nothing would change if the fact would have happen a couple of miles away
That’s true. Israel would still have intruded on, hijacked and murdered civilian activists at night. The Zionists are known to be incapable of containing their blood-lust.
But at least they would have an excuse for it.
What “fact” are you talking about? The massacre perpetrated this day by a religious murder regime, which was a zillion miles of any relevant coast, and should be condemned by every breathing organism which might include thyself, or about your idiotic little story?
If the latter, then here it is spilled out for you: Any group who attacks civilian ships in international waters and storms them might legitimately get “lynched”. If you can’t comprehend this, you might have your brain checked.
Now go organize that flotilla of yours and help the black people of America instead of bothering us with your war crime-excusing shit which will surely secure you a place in hell next to the cheerleaders of every other murder regime.
Kitchen knives and screwdrivers, you gullible tool.
jonah,
Where you out beating up an unarmed TV reporter around Ashdod?
I bet you could find a few Arabs to attack too, seeing as that is your favorite pass time. Torched a mosque lately?
Really, how many ways are there to say “fuck off”?
If those commandos hadn’t rappelled onto the boats, they wouldn’t have been hurt, would they?
“It felt like a lynch”
Yeah, no fucking kidding. What, were they expecting a goddamn baby shower? Jesus Christ, who trains these ninnies?
“Self-defense” isn’t concept reserved for Jews, Jonah.
This is called “fighting off the hijackers attacking the ship.” Lynching is the killing of innocents, not armed attackers.
If an Israeli ship fought off pirates, you Ziocaine addicts would be cheering for them and giving them medals and parades.
Hi Colin
Posted here for a long time before being banned. I suppose it’s for the same reason..namely that I can no longer in good faith support non-violent resistance to israel which winds up getting good people killed and accomplishing nothing.
You don’t have to agree with this point of view. Would you like to ban me as well? Talk to Phil. He will most likely oblige, as he has in the past.
The idea of let’s beat the Zionists by being worse sounds a bit too much like Zionism for my tastes. I can understand Palestinan anger and desire for revenge, I’m an Englishman our vengeance has a name, Dresden, but I suspect you’re not from Gaza or Ramallah and have never been bombed. please correct me if I’m wrong.
I’m an American Jew, droog. But the revenge factor isn’t the main substance of my point–though obviously, millions all over the world want to see revenge taken on israel, for reasons that ought to be obvious.
My point is not about revenge but simple pragmatism. The israelis have absolutely no disincentive for their brutalization and murder of palestinians, or for that matter, anyone else who gets in their way.
In the best case scenario, non-violent disincentives could force Israel’s hand. I was VERY optimistic when Obama took office that this would finally happen. Well–I was wrong. We were wrong. The US is NOT going to force Israel’s hand by sanction, cutting off funds or any other means. The US can’t even muster a fainthearted condemnation of this latest outrage on the high seas. So that path to the end of the occupation is blocked. You can’t get there that way. What’s next?
In my view, violent struggle is the only game in town. It won freedom for the people of Indochina against a similarly daunting adversary and it can force Israel’s retreat. I don’t see another viable means at this point. Every alternative has been given chance after chance as the conditions for palestinians have steadily worsened in every respect.
You are right that the non-violent approach has serious obstacles. But the violent approach has obstacles as well. In essence, both can only work if a significant portion of the worlds people support it robustly. If think you can crack that quantitative barrier, the critical mass, why not go for the non-violent approach?
Aside from that, I hope nobody denies that even violent resistance to injustice is legitimate if other options are not available.
I’m a lapsed follower of the non-prophet Ghandi, lapsed because faced with Nazis, it doesn’t work, and because of what I want to do to Tony Blair. However there is a huge gulf between accepting the nessessity for Military action and open Warmongering and Glorification of violence , I read the vengance-fest of Talkbacks baying for blood and see it as symptom of the problem that should not be aped in way.
Here’s a concrete question. Would you support groups trying to help Palestinians obtain or develop more effective weapons against the Israelis? (I don’t mean rhetorical or propaganda weapons, I mean weapons of the sort that kill people.)
I certainly would. I think that the Palestinians can learn a great deal from the way the Iraqi resistance decimated US supply lines and blew US occupation vehicles to bits using simple, inexpensive means. I believe it is the reason the US is having to withdraw from Iraq, having accomplished absolutely nothing, at a cost of some 3 trillion dollars.
I also think the history of the struggle shows that Israeli concession in Lebanon, the Golan, etc have come without exception in response to violence against them, never through diplomacy, much less, Israel’s sense of decency, law or human rights.
I think they tried this. It didn’t work, and it was a great propaganda victory for Israel.
In principle, you’re right. But your plan reminds me of Hitler’s desperate quest for wunderwaffen that would miraculously win a lost war. Miracles aren’t the way to bet.
Is Israel a Cancer?
Principal Victoria: Wendy, I’ve been hearing rumors about a fight between you and Eric Cartman.
Wendy: No ma’am, there isn’t going to be a fight.
Principal Victoria: Oh no? Are you sure?
Wendy: Yes ma’am!
Principal Victoria: I see. I’ve noticed all the things you’ve done for Breast Cancer Awareness Month. Did you know I’m a breast cancer survivor?
Wendy: Ma’am?
Principal Victoria: I was diagnosed seven years ago. Cancer is… pure evil. It is a fat little lump that needs to be… destroyed. When there is a cancer, you have to “fight” it. You can’t reason with cancer, you can’t wish it away. Cancer doesn’t play by the rules, so neither can you.
Wendy: My… parents said that if I fight-
Principal Victoria: And you can’t listen to what anybody else tells you. You have to be willing to give up everything, because the cancer will take everything. Do you understand?
Wendy: Yes ma’am!
Principal Victoria: When you have cancer you fight, because it doesn’t matter if you beat it or not. You refuse to let that fat little lump make you feel powerless!
When Norman Finkelstein, after the 2008 Gaza massacre perpetrated by Israels murderous state terrorists, wrote that “Israel went too far”, today this surely needs a sad sequel.