My Gaza talk Thursday night was in the Des Moines Valley Friends Meeting, with 30-40 people. Some in the audience had been to Gaza in the late 90's and also to the West Bank. They were better informed about issue than other venues. Questions began even before the talk did; they continued to flow through out my presentation.
Once again "Why is Israel doing this?"-- asked when I was talking about students not getting out to pursue scholarships.
When talking about Israel's blockade of imports, a gentleman in the back says, "Israel is providing them a balanced diet."
I responded that many items essentials for Gazan cooking--chick peas, rice, etc-- were on the list of non-essential goods. Until recently, shoes, clothes, paper, pens, pencils, school supplies were deemed non-essential. Israel decides what may or may not be imported. No input from Gazans, list changes without notice.
"Gentleman" in back brings up "fact" that food approved by Israel provides a balanced diet for Gazans.
I responded: "There are extremely high numbers children, pregnant women and others suffering from malnutrition and numbers continue to rise. The only explanation is the diet, which Israel controls. Israel knowingly or unknowingly is creating malnutrition and vitamin deficiencies.
The audience was very upset about white phosphorus, Farah Abu Halima's case, and the deaths in her family. The audience was also concerned about pictures from the Qattan Center for the Child's art therapy program. "What is being done to help these poor children?"
I answered with information about the children's centers and mental health organizations. I then went into bombing of facilities, hospitals, schools, etc, the deliberate destruction of infastructure.
My next slide was the American International School in Gaza. I talked about our taxes paying for the school and it how surprising it was to me that Israel would destroy it because we are their best friends in the middle east.
Here comes the best part.
The "gentleman" in the back says what a nice presentation I'd made but there were facts I had not included. Out comes a paper, which he began to read from. It started with 1948: how poor Israel has suffered to protect themselves ever since their country was founded. He didn't say the Holocaust but talked about tragedy and suffering, Then he started in on the Palestinians, who have been hostile since the beginning and dangerous, trying to destroy Israel and kill Israelis.
My next slide was the American International School in Gaza. I talked about our taxes paying for the school and it how surprising it was to me that Israel would destroy it because we are their best friends in the middle east.
Here comes the best part.
The "gentleman" in the back says what a nice presentation I'd made but there were facts I had not included. Out comes a paper, which he began to read from. It started with 1948: how poor Israel has suffered to protect themselves ever since their country was founded. He didn't say the Holocaust but talked about tragedy and suffering, Then he started in on the Palestinians, who have been hostile since the beginning and dangerous, trying to destroy Israel and kill Israelis.
We then moved on to the horrible, horrible rockets, thousands of them. I asked "are you aware these rockets are crude?... These are rockets...not missiles, they go up and come down, they can't be directed at a specific target."
Gentleman: "Well they've have shot thousands and thousands of them, the people are terrified."
Me: "The people in Gaza are also terrified by Israel's actions...Just last week I heard an Israeli offical comment that Israeli children should not have to run to bomb shelters and are afraid.. Gazan children are terricfrd by Israel's soldiers, tanks, drones, helicopters which appear almost on a daily basis. I agree with you that children should not be under these conditions, in fact no one should. You mentioned bomb shelters...the children in Gaza have no bomb shelters to run to for protection.."
Shortly after this encounter, someone in the audience turned to the "gentleman" and said, "Sheldon, your time is up, you're manopolizing the conversation."
They began a rather heated exchange.
I interrupted saying, "Sir I believe in respecting people and their opinions. I am having a difficult time respecting yours. Ten years ago I would have sounded much like you, though certainly not as strongly."
The audience laughed.
"I was supportive of Israel and believed everything they said. Then I heard about the wall and little red flags jumped up. I visited the West Bank and saw how Israel suppresses and abuses the Palestinians. My opinion of Israel changed. After seeing Gaza I'm doing all I can to telll others what I 've seen, heard and experienced."
No response from the gentleman Sheldon.
If you can keep your content on the condition of Gazans, you will get compassionate responses.
If you drift to condemnation of Israel, you will have to address the issue of continuing conflict and the political role of Hamas (its history, recent history – resumption of shelling of civilians, and present – still militant, opposing negotiation currently).
I personally will work to help Gazan civilians, but in no way will I work to help Hamas.
It is not an avoidable question.
you will get compassionate responses.
Just like when you dehumanize others by calling them “reptiles”?
So, Witty, if I were to ask you why Gazans with scholarships aren’t being allowed to attend the universities that will accept them, what’s your explanation?
That’s always the way Witty, condem Hamas but not Israel. Pretend you care about the Palestinisns so long as they are quiet and don’t say mean things about Israel. Pretend to care about the Palestinians, but demonstrate contempt for their democratic choices and aspirations.
Reading this piece I thought of you Witty. His piece of paper sounds like it fell out if your pocket.
I and millions of liberal Jews that would and do feel and express compassion for Palestinians’ experience, will have reservations or entirely reject supporting efforts that enhance Hamas’ role.
You can call that my advocacy or observation.
I don’t think that you can dismiss that reaction. Its very tough to forgive intentional mass murder of civilians. A decade is not long enough. And, there is no excuse for rationalizing that hundreds of completed bombings of civilians in buses, cafes, hotels is resistance.
Yes witty, we’re familiar with your presumtion of being a spokesman for “Lberal Jews”, though a Liberal Jew is nothign remotely like a Liberla Zionist.
Given that you advicate rejecting effrots to enhance Hamas’ role, then surely we should all reject emhanviomng Likud’s and Kadima’s role. of course, that would mean nobne of your blessed reform Witty.
See what a hypocrite you are? Liku/Kadima need to reform, but Hamas needs to be rejected completely. So much for your platitudes about reconciliation.
“Its very tough to forgive intentional mass murder of civilians.”
Yes it is, which is why your insistence that we forgive Likud/Kadima, who have indeed intentionallu mass murdered civilians, rings so hollow and so nauseatingly hypocritical.
“A decade is not long enough. ”
And 6 decades is even worse.
“And, there is no excuse for rationalizing that hundreds of completed bombings of civilians in buses, cafes, hotels is resistance.”
Then nor is it defense, but you will undoubtedly rationalize it won’t you Witty?
BTW. Is there any excuse for rationalizing the completed bombings of hotels like the Kind David Hotel, or do you want to sugar coat it first?
“And, there is no excuse for rationalizing that hundreds of completed bombings of civilians in buses, cafes, hotels is resistance. ”
So by that standard, there is no excuse for rationalizing the massacre that Israel undertook in Gaza. After all, no Isralis were killed when Hamas responded to Israel’s raid that killed 6 Palestinians.
I and millions of liberal Jews
Witty, you can only speak for yourself.
I say so because your own disposition is of constantly advising the readers of the site to pursue aims of humanizing, mutual respect and dialogue, all of which you conclusively neglect and contradict in your own speech, by calling others “reptiles,” “fascists” and many other maximalist names.
You can continue to avoid this hypocrisy of yours but it is clear for the readers of this site to see.
“Hamas’ role.”
How about the Likud “role” Richard. Did you ever have a look at what Netanyahu’s Likud party stands for? Did you ever read their charter/platform? Here it is:
Witty is known for his delusions of grandeur. On some occasions he’s Bern known to claim he speaks for the entire planet – sans the commenters on this forum of course.
Quit lying Shingo, how many times do I need to point out that the six were not killed in the initial raid, they were killed following the bombing of the tunnel and return fire from Hamas. I know its small and people died none-the-less, but you guys need to be held accountable for your lies on here. especially when I’ve made it clear, with ample citations to back it up, what the real facts on november 4th were. I am even willing to say that Israel broke the ceasefire…. but they didn’t kill six Pals on the initial raid.
No where does it call for the destruction of the Palestinians, like the Hamas charter does.
link to thejerusalemfund.org
“Quit lying Shingo, how many times do I need to point out that the six were not killed in the initial raid, they were killed following the bombing of the tunnel and return fire from Hamas”
You mean they were killed defending themselves Yonira? Iguess that changes everything right? The raid was an attack by a death squad you idiot. The bombing of the tunnel was the raid IDIOT.
It’s obvious who the liar is.
“No where does it call for the destruction of the Palestinians, like the Hamas charter does.
link to thejerusalemfund.org”
How many tomes do we have to corect your lies Yonira. Hamas removed this statement from their manifesto in 2006.
It’s tome you updated your talking points.
Can you rationalize the Pesach hotel bombing Shingo? I mean what is the point of going back and forth talking about past transgressions(both sides have more than enough to discuss), especially things like the King David, where were perpetrated before Israel was even established.
If I were to use Witty’s logic, then yes it could be rationalized because IDF troops at some stage would have entered that hotel, making it a legitimate target and the victims collateral damage.
How does that sound?
“Its very tough to forgive intentional mass murder of civilians. ”
So why do you forgive Israel which was founded by intentional mass murder of civilians, and has not stopped intentionally murdering them since its inception? Why do you rationalize it?
Is it that you forgive and rationalize murder of people who don’t happen to be Jews?
>> No where does it call for the destruction of the Palestinians, like the Hamas charter does.
Why do you persist on promoting this out-dated point? Your link is to a 1988 document which has been debunked numerous times in numerous threads. Example:
link to guardian.co.uk
Such obvious falsehoods detract from your arguments. Maybe your just playing “tit-for-tat” with other forum members, maybe not. Anyway, just a thought.
“No where does it call for the destruction of the Palestinians
That would be redundant. All of Zionism was involved in the destruction of Palestine and the Palestinians, no one single political party, and it was achieved long ago.
Excellent point sherbrsi, just as in accusing Hamas of starting or escalating the 2008/2009 war is redundant given that Israel had already started it.
It’s worth pointing out sherbrsi, that if Hamas were to achieve that alledged goal pf destroying Israel, then the logical revision to their charter would read exactly like Likud’s – to prevent a Jewish state from emerging.
the manifesto and the charter are not the same thing. Jesus dude, the manifesto is something which was written prior to their attempt(a rather successful attempt) at elections. But it didn’t nullify their charter.
it has never been debunked eljay, your claim that they changed their charter has been debunked on here. Please read the article that you posted, it talks about a manifesto which was written previous to their elections as I mentioned above. This has nothing to do with their charter, which I assure you hasn’t been changed.
link to memri.org
and before all you psychos go nuts because it is a link to the dreaded memri, it was from a Palestinian scholar and published in Al-Hayat.
Shingo, After all, no Isralis were killed when Hamas responded to Israel’s raid that killed 6 Palestinians.
fine just admit what you said above is inaccurate, that is all i am asking. The raid and the battle are two different things.
Israel fired first, yonira. Israel broke the cease fire.
So why not link it from Al-Hayat? MEMRI has been caught in falsified translations how many times now?
Just like a said
LOL, you just proved my point and proved you are full of shit. is there there a language barrier which we are struggling with?
It must suck for your girlfriend, getting shouted down as a b*tch or a c*nt whenever you lose an argument to her.
I take it she’s a masochist?
so how did i lose any argument? i’d like to ask you the same with your boyfriend? how does it feel when he shouts you down as a b*tch or a c*nt when you lose an argument with him?
What’s the matter? Ran out of meth jokes so soon? Couldn’t even come up with a crude epithet of your own cuss words that you had to cut and paste my post and make a couple of hasty changes?
Israel is the responsible party for fueling the cycle of war and violence. Almost every time.
Face it, yonira. You and your Zionist friends are nothing more than racist brutalizing lackwits. Hell, your friends even deserted the US to serve a foreign military.
Not only are you barely really Jewish, you don’t even represent loyalty to your own country. If your grandparents were still around, I dare say they’d be ashamed of you and your contemporaries. They didn’t fight ethnic cleansing and rampant violence in Europe just so their progeny could perpetrate the same in the Middle East.
yonira
Are you that naive?
The Likud does not need to make statements about the destruction of the Palestinians. They’re more crafty than that. You have to read between the lines. What does simple sentences like these, effectively mean?:
“Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel”
“The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan River.”
“The Jordan River as a Permanent Border:”
Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel.
“The government succeeded in significantly reducing the extent of territory that the Palestinians expected to receive in the interim arrangement.”
Who needs to “call for destruction” when it can be effectively done by a set of policies and measures that are meant to slowly squeeze, strangulate and eliminate sustainability and survival?
Another point. Who of Hamas or the Likud in gov’t have the power and the means to achieve its objectives whether declared or hidden? Hamas is powerless when Israel can effectively go ahead with their plan and they’re doing just that as we speak.
Again Chaos, i have a certificate. and don’t kid yourself, your grandparents would be mortified by your lifestyle.
That same Likud government is currently working on a peace deal with the Palestinians have have halted settlement building. What do they get in return?
link to ynetnews.com
Homes are still being bulldozed, the wall is still being put up straight through Palestinian villages, and families are being torn apart whenever the Israelis “deport” Palestinians to the prison camp they’ve turned Gaza into. And you claim settlement building has halted.
You might as well wipe your ass with that certificate for what it’s worth, yonira. You’re not Jewish in any meaningful sense of the word. Thou shallt not bear false witness against they neigbor and thou shallt not covet thy neighbor’s property.
how many times are the trolls going to bring up this debunked point?
Hamas created a new charter which they abide by now. This has been stated several times. In their new charter there is no call for the destruction of Israel.
Hamas has been clear that their original manifesto is a historical document and that they don’t plan their policy around a document that was created during the chaos of the first intifada more than 20 years ago (a time when Israelis were shooting Palestinian children in the face for daring to go to school; yes the Israelis made going to school illegal during this period of time).
As Hamas officials themselves have stated:
link to articles.latimes.com
Yet in my many years of keeping an open mind to all sides of the Palestine question — including those I spent in an American prison, awaiting Israeli “justice” — I am forever asked to concede the recognition of Israel’s putative “right to exist” as a necessary precondition to discussing grievances, and to renounce positions found in the Islamic Resistance Movement’s charter of 1988, an essentially revolutionary document born of the intolerable conditions under occupation more than 20 years ago.
And the kicker =P
The sticking point of “recognition” has been used as a litmus test to judge Palestinians. Yet as I have said before, a state may have a right to exist, but not absolutely at the expense of other states, or more important, at the expense of millions of human individuals and their rights to justice. Why should anyone concede Israel’s “right” to exist, when it has never even acknowledged the foundational crimes of murder and ethnic cleansing by means of which Israel took our towns and villages, our farms and orchards, and made us a nation of refugees?
Why should any Palestinian “recognize” the monstrous crime carried out by Israel’s founders and continued by its deformed modern apartheid state, while he or she lives 10 to a room in a cinderblock, tin-roof United Nations hut? These are not abstract questions, and it is not rejectionist simply because we have refused to abandon the victims of 1948 and their descendants.
As for the 1988 charter, if every state or movement were to be judged solely by its foundational, revolutionary documents or the ideas of its progenitors, there would be a good deal to answer for on all sides. The American Declaration of Independence, with its self-evident truth of equality, simply did not countenance (at least, not in the minds of most of its illustrious signatories) any such status for the 700,000 African slaves at that time; nor did the Constitution avoid codifying slavery as an institution, counting “other persons” as three-fifths of a man. Israel, which has never formally adopted a constitution of its own but rather operates through the slow accretion of Basic Laws, declares itself explicitly to be a state for the Jews, conferring privileged status based on faith in a land where millions of occupants are Arabs, Muslims and Christians.
Lets also never mind the fact that Hamas has been very clear about accepting the 2 state solution based on the 67 borders, whether through the Arab Peace Proposal or through any other 67 borders based solution.
They’ve renounced suicide bombing as a tactic.
They’ve shown themselves ready to sit down and negotiate with anyone so long as a modicum of the basic Palestinian demands are discussed.
Thus far Israel has responded by punishing the Palestinians for voting in a group of people whose “maximalist” demands are asking for merely 1/5 of their historic homeland (even though they have every right to all of it as victims of theft).
In any case we all know that the only reason Witty and Yonira continue to bring up “Hamas terror!” (even though Hamas cannot even come close to competing with Israel when it comes to terror) is simply because its a convenient way of scapegoating and blaming the Palestinians for their own misery which has been inflicted upon them by the state of Israel.
This conflict could be solved tomorrow along the 2 state lines if all Israel did was go into sincere negotiations with Hamas.
who the fuck are you zamass now giving me scripture? talk about being a hypocrite man.
do you think the latest break of the cease fire (rocket fire today) had anything to do with the latest attempt at a peace agreement? don’t you find it ironic, every-time there is talk about peace talks a rocket gets fired from Hamas controlled territory? do you have a graph for that?
James you are confusing the charter and their pre-election manifesto(again). they are not the same thing. you are now interchanging the two like they are the same document you are wrong, wrong wrong!
“That same Likud government is currently working on a peace deal with the Palestinians have have halted settlement building. What do they get in return?”
Is this all you found to respond to all the potential points of discussion in my post?
Goodbye yonira. Sorry for wasting your time.
Actually there is a graph showing that anytime there is a cease-fire or a lull in violence, it is Israel 90%+ of the time that initiates a new round of violence by attacking the Palestinians in an unprovoked manner.
link to huffingtonpost.com
We defined “conflict pauses” as periods of one or more days when no one is killed on either side, and we asked which side kills first after conflict pauses of different durations. As shown in Figure 2, this analysis shows that it is overwhelmingly Israel that kills first after a pause in the conflict: 79% of all conflict pauses were interrupted when Israel killed a Palestinian, while only 8% were interrupted by Palestinian attacks (the remaining 13% were interrupted by both sides on the same day). In addition, we found that this pattern — in which Israel is more likely than Palestine to kill first after a conflict pause — becomes more pronounced for longer conflict pauses. Indeed, of the 25 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than a week, Israel unilaterally interrupted 24, or 96%, and it unilaterally interrupted 100% of the 14 periods of nonviolence lasting longer than 9 days.
The Palestinians (Hamas included) have shown that they can uphold ceasefires despite being under a brutal military occupation.
Israel has shown that it can’t even maintain a lull in violence for merely 14 days, much less abide by the terms of a ceasefire agreement.
But then again this is all moot.
Israel is one of the most powerful military machines on the planet, while the Palestinians are largely armed with home made weapons.
The Israelis kill Palestinians at a rate of 100:1.
Seriously, “discussing violence” is not a talking point a pro-Israeli hasbarista wants to get into.
Did you even read my post Yonira?
I’ve been clear they are not the same thing.
However, Hamas has made it abundantly clear that their policy is not guided by their founding charter.
link to articles.latimes.com
As for the 1988 charter, if every state or movement were to be judged solely by its foundational, revolutionary documents or the ideas of its progenitors, there would be a good deal to answer for on all sides. The American Declaration of Independence, with its self-evident truth of equality, simply did not countenance (at least, not in the minds of most of its illustrious signatories) any such status for the 700,000 African slaves at that time; nor did the Constitution avoid codifying slavery as an institution, counting “other persons” as three-fifths of a man. Israel, which has never formally adopted a constitution of its own but rather operates through the slow accretion of Basic Laws, declares itself explicitly to be a state for the Jews, conferring privileged status based on faith in a land where millions of occupants are Arabs, Muslims and Christians.
Hamas has been very clear, that upon transitioning to a purely political party that they are committed to the 2 state solution based on the 67 borders. Isn’t that what every single Zionut wants?
The most extreme group amongst the mainstream Palestinian parties is willing to give up 4/5′s of their historic homeland to make peace with Israel.
What more can you ask for?
“James you are confusing the charter and their pre-election manifesto(again). they are not the same thing”
Yes they are because they removed that statement from their manifesto, and you can’t remove a statement from a manifesto that has just been invented.
That was neat and clean James, thanks. But while we’re discussing Hamas charter ( that he brought up as a diversion/deflection) no talk of the Likud charter, a platform far more dangerous in its tenets and goals because achievable while the “destruction of Israel” is in the realm of fantasy . That’s what the trolls like yonira want. Avoid discussing the embarrassing but crucial issues.
I have dutifully read through the Hamas Charter to which you refer, and can find only this:
“Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.”
This looks, to me, very like an over-confident and empty threat, followed by an immediate call for peace.
Compare it with this:
“We sang “Onward, Christian Soldiers” indeed, and I felt that this was no vain presumption, but that we had the right to feel that we serving a cause for the sake of which a trumpet has sounded from on high. When I looked upon that densely packed congregation of fighting men of the same language, of the same faith, of the same fundamental laws, of the same ideals … it swept across me that here was the only hope, but also the sure hope, of saving the world from measureless degradation.
—Winston Churchill – on the occasion of the signing of the Atlantic Charter between Britain and the US on 14 August 1941, four mohths before Pearl Harbor.
Religious aggression, it seems to me, is just as objectionable wherever it comes from.
On the other hand, Likud has a bit more detail:
“In the “Peace and Security” chapter of the Likud Party platform, a recent document (1999) it says initially that:
“Peace is a primary objective of the State of Israel. The Likud will strengthen the existing peace agreements with the Arab states and strive to achieve peace agreements with all of Israel’s neighbors with the aim of reaching a comprehensive solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict.”
But then it says about settlements:
“The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting.”
Therefore annihilating the slightest chance of a two-state solution.
On Palestinian self-rule it says:
“The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs.”
Therefore annihilating any chance of seeing a Palestinian sovereign state.
On Jerusalem:
“Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz.”
Therefore annihilating any chance for future peace negotiations because east Jerusalem as capital of a future Palestinian state is non-negotiable for any Palestinian.
We have therefore established that the Likud party charter does not recognize Palestine and will not accept a sovereign Palestinian state.
Hamas, Hamas, Hamas, ya Habibi Richard. Hamas will wither along with Zionism. It’s a consequence of Zionism and it will disband with the tranformation of Israel into the reorganized egalitarian community between the sea and the river. Find me Israelis who reject Zionism and I’ll find you Palestinians who will disown Hamas. Let’s try it. You’ll like it. It can be great fun.
>> … it has never been debunked eljay, your claim that they changed their charter has been debunked on here.
I didn’t say Hamas changed their charter. I said that your earlier point – that Hamas is calling for the destruction of Israel – has been debunked. And the article you linked to supports my statement:
“The charter must be amended because it does not [accurately] reflect the essence of the Palestinian struggle against the Zionist entity, but conveys a message that Hamas [actually] abandoned a long time ago.”
Thanks for providing a link to an article – penned by someone you appear to consider an authoritative source – that debunks the claim that Hamas still wants to destroy Israel.
“I take it she’s a masochist?”
She’s converting to Judaism, and will have Yonira’s Jewish children. I guess we will find out who is the masochist!
Hey, Yoni, when is the wedding? And when do we see the conversion certificate, and is it from a Real Jewish Rabbi or a New Jewish Rabbi? Or one of those parasitic Old Jewish Rabbis?
Yoni, why don’t you have a talk with “eee”, our Atheist Zionist Jew? I’m sure he could convince you that you can have all the benefits of Jewishness and Zionism without any of that old phony G-d business. Be a hell of a lot easier, and less expensive.
Sometimes I think Hamas was funded and supported by the Israeli’s not as a counter to secular elements of Palestinian resistance movements, but so Zionists can use the word as an all encompassing counter aurgument Hamashamashamashamashamas. Etcetara. Ad infinitum, reductio ad absurdum and any other Latin that you think will make me sound smarter.
I’m sorry I didn’t see your post, and don’t want to seem unoriginal. So just pretend I didn’t add the multiple Hamases, Hamii?? What is the plural of Hamas. Is it an acronym? Just ignore me, carry on as before.
Dick Witty, if you wish to help the Gaza civilians, but not Hamas, why do you help the state of Israel?
>> If you drift to condemnation of Israel, you will have to address the issue of continuing conflict and the political role of Hamas (its history, recent history – resumption of shelling of civilians, and present – still militant, opposing negotiation currently).
>> I personally will work to help Gazan civilians, but in no way will I work to help Hamas.
Well, doesn’t that sound thoughtful! What a load of hypocritical garbage. Unless, of course, you would avoid “drifting to condemnation of the Palestinians” and “personally work to help Israeli civilians, but in no way work to help the Israeli government”.
Another case of arguing that both sides are to blame, ahileonly condeming one side and rejecting condemnation of the other on the grounds that it thwarts peace and reconcilliation.
>> Another case of arguing that both sides are to blame, [while only] condeming one side and rejecting condemnation of the other on the grounds that it thwarts peace and reconcilliation.
Blaming both sides would be destabilizing and would not be the “better argument”. ;-)
Although I won’t stoop to the name-calling that I’ve seen some people (disappointingly) engage in, I must say that any respect I had (and I did have some) for Mr. Witty has pretty much faded away.
His inevitable use of bafflegab and pseudo-intellectual-sounding drivel in lieu of clear, concise and direct answers, and his obvious devotion to the Israeli side of the argument – in contrast to his hypocritical calls for “balance” and respect for “the other”, etc. – have rendered his pronouncements meaningless. (To me, anyway.)
Sheldon was wearing a toupee. He’s a regular pillar of the community. So, show some respect. Keept it to the physical condition of the Palestinians. Just assume they were born that way, especially the stunted kids.
I’d imagine that in Witty’s family, the patents give their children their veryown pair of motorized goal posts.
Witty let us know:
“I personally will work to help Gazan civilians, ”
Great news. Now what is it that you doing? Oh ho, I get it, the “will” is future tense. Please let us know what you are “willing ” to do? And I guess that must come with many caveats, so what are those to make your “promise” have any meaning at all?
In all the years I’ve attended debates and lectures and various other presentations intended to provide the type of information on the ongoing conflict in Palestine that regularly gets omitted, there has always been at least one representative of the opposition present in a highly visible adversarial role.
I welcome open discussion at all times and feel that solid arguments can stand the scrutiny and even get sharpened as a result. This however, is not what is happening. It seems that actual engagement over facts is specifically to be avoided as much as possible. Instead, the opposition takes an attitude that the level of their anger is directly proportional to validity of their viewpoint, and that that expression should be enough in itself to dissuade anyone else from holding a contrary view. When that turns out not to be the case, this seems to increase their level of certainty of the malevolent intent of those with pro justice for Palestine leanings. They are clearly convinced any claims of weighing the issues in a fair and objective manner is just pretense (further evidenced by denial of same).
There are a host of standard attack strategies, and a common thread is that they are based on a mountain of presumptions that ignore facts and history. Logical fallacies are consistently put forth, with a particular blind spot towards any sort of critical examination of their own claims. Any successful rebuttal of a weaker argument, even when not representative of consensus opinion, is seen as a validation for their entire position.
Q&A degenerates into long-winded statements, or loaded questions based on a mountain of falsehoods by opposition representatives, with the patience of those wanting to move along being sorely tested.
And yet on almost every ocassion, I have seen “my side” try to treat those with a differing view with courtesy and a willingness to consider differences in subjective interpretations. They also deal well with those seeking only to disrupt or hijack the proceedings in they they are given much leeway knowing how emotional and contentious these issues can be.
And with all that…everything that I’ve seen for myself…the official MSM narrative is largely that our side is the refuge of the haters. We are making progress at times, but it will not take much in terms of an occurrence that fits the evil Muslim/Arab stereotype, for the other side to feel even more validated. This is one of the reasons that false flag attacks concern me so.
On a final note, a bit of background; prior to 9/11, my default position on the I/P conflict was the official narrative of good guy Israel besieged by hateful primitive barbarian neighbors. Not in any manner a blanket condemnation of Arabs or Muslims (though indeed unfamiliar and exotic to me), but the presumption from my entirely cursory understanding of the conflict that rational and modern Israeli Jews were being forthright in their presentation of the facts of the conflict, and that the Arab/Muslim/Palestinian position was meant only to excuse their violent actions.
If 9/11 can be seen to have any positive affect, it is that it prompted me to look closer at the particulars of the conflict in the region, as I felt it would be the basis for US military action for some time to come. What surprised me was that it didn’t take a whole lot of examination to discover that the narrative was shamelessly one-sided. Once I saw the extent of the lying by the pro-Zionist side over things large and small, the virtually complete control of the narrative whether through official sources, or the default positions the gatekeepers elsewhere utilized, I had a newfound respect and admiration for the daunting uphill climb that the Palestinians have gone through since the beginning. How discouraging it must be to try to get the truth out when the lies are so thoroughly believed and zealously defended.
I am inspired by the courageous truth-tellers of my side and have always felt confident that my “champions” can beat their “champions.”
Why? Because I have seen it time and again.
Thank you for this comment LanceThruster.
I have to say that I too was once like you especially in regards to my views on the I/P conflict merely a decade ago when I actually believed that the Israelis “were probably the good guys.”
It wasn’t until I was assigned to the Middle East that my viewpoints began to be challenged, and then after my first visit to the West Bank my entire world was flipped on its head.
Lance you describe a political trajectory similar to mine. Your frustration with debating the Zionists is understandable. They are not interested in establishing historical truth in those debates, both they and we know what those are. They lost that debate decades ago. Their only goal is to deflect, obscure and obfuscate those details. Our goal is to keep those facts alive. Eventually, they lose and we win.
“Their only goal is to deflect, obscure and obfuscate those details.”
Excatly what took place in the above exchange (Hamas charter versus Likud charter). A textbook case of how the trolls operate.
Excellent post, LanceThruster.
Too bad your comments will be viewed by some people – well, by at least one person – as destabilization and maximalism. I mean, why address using facts the inaccuracies put forth by proponents of the Israeli side of the debate, when you could simply present yourself as a human being instead of a victim and try to understand “the other”? ;-)
“On a final note, a bit of background; prior to 9/11, my default position on the I/P conflict was the official narrative of good guy Israel besieged by hateful primitive barbarian neighbors.”
Yup, and I’m sure your new position represents the same intellectual depth and rational thinking.
The “depth” comes from a deeper examination. There are any number of things I am uninformed or ill-informed on. Can you claim any differently for yourself? We all have to rely on others to help piece together our world view. At times we need to gauge the veracity of things we accepted at face value. The official narrative benefits from the status quo as there are only so many hours in the day. That is why so much effort is put into delaying actions.
“One of the great liabilities of history is that all too many people fail to remain awake through great periods of social change. Every society has its protectors of status quo and its fraternities of the indifferent who are notorious for sleeping through revolutions. Today, our very survival depends on our ability to stay awake, to adjust to new ideas, to remain vigilant and to face the challenge of change.” – Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
“Washing ones hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.” – Paulo Freire
Thanks to all who replied. It was interesting to me tat others came ttheir own views via a similar route. My statements about “hateful primitive barbarian neighbors” was not an expression any personal convictions, but rather a common media depiction that I had no cause at the time to disagree with or question.
I would also be interested in learning more about Mr. Bradley’s Middle East assignment. Are you the same James Bradley of “Flags of our Fathers” and the one contributing articles for Huffington Post? Regardless, I would like know where to read more of your work.
Not sure any will see this with the comment subscription currently unavailable but wanted to add my follow up.
thankgodimatheist, have you seen the Hamas and Fatah charter?
James Bradley, you say,
Hamas has shown themselves ready to sit down and negotiate with anyone so long as a modicum of the basic Palestinian demands are discussed.
Negotiate what. Letting in 5 million violent Arabs into Israel.
Hamas wants 2 Palestinian states, their own state and to flood Israel with millions of Arabs for the 2nd state.
Sorry Mr Bradley, Jews dont want to live under Sharia Law.
Then you say, Hamas has been clear that their original manifesto is a historical document and that they don’t plan their policy around a document that was created during the chaos of the first intifada more than 20 years ago (a time when Israelis were shooting Palestinian children in the face for daring to go to school;
You also probably believe 4000 Jews didn’t show up at the World Trade Center.
You also probably believe the Arab lie of Jews putting aids in their food.
There are hundreds of other lies you can read the Arabs say on Memri and Pal Media watch.
Then you say, In any case we all know that the only reason Witty and Yonira continue to bring up “Hamas terror!” (even though Hamas cannot even come close to competing with Israel when it comes to terror) is simply because its a convenient way of scapegoating and blaming the Palestinians for their own misery which has been inflicted upon them by the state of Israel.
Again, your facts are wrong. You only hear about the attrocities Hamas commits that get through. You dont hear about the hundreds of massacres Hamas planned to commit that were stopped by the Israeli army.
It figures Bradley supports Arabs who blow up buses, shopping malls, disco’s, pizzeria’s and brainwashes their children into believing killing Jews will get you 72 virgins.
These murderous Arabs even built a replica of the Sbarros massacre.
I can see Bradley visiting Ayash and Dalal Mughrabi street.
These are Bradley’s type of people.
That’s the game you Zionists wanted to play, in the only area of the world you wanted to play on. Now you don’t like the odds?
Tough shit!
I could have told you a long time ago that Judaism and Jewishness, while one hell of a religion and culture (oy, the blintzs!) it provides neither the discipline or cohesion nor the population or monetary resources to pull of creating a Western bulkhead in the ME.
We tried to punch above our weight, and now things are turning against us. We should accept it and go back to our gated communities. If you really want to get back at the Palestinians, hire illegal Mexican immigrants for your pool, lawn and housework instead of Arabs. That’ll show ‘em!
Let’s see if we are punching above our weight. Only the future will tell. You are a defeatist. Israel has only been growing stronger over the years. Learn to live with that.
“Hamas wants 2 Palestinian states, their own state and to flood Israel with millions of Arabs for the 2nd state.
Sorry Mr Bradley, Jews dont want to live under Sharia Law. ”
Interesting! Exact same formulation posted under another name( can’t remember who exactly) on this very blog a week ago! Another foot soldier of the paid hasbara brigade. Not even worth the tfooh of the day!
James Bradley you say,
Thus far Israel has responded by punishing the Palestinians for voting in a group of people whose “maximalist” demands are asking for merely 1/5 of their historic homeland (even though they have every right to all of it as victims of theft).
What theft, their was never in history any state called Palestine.
Tell me one Palestinian President before 1993? Keep thinking Mr Bradley.
The Arabs have 80% of the 1917 British Mandate borders.
The East Bank was part of the mandate and given to the Arabs in 1922 and named after the Jordan river.
The East Bank was 75% of the land.
The Arabs in every part of the land they won in the 48 war, the West Bank and East Jerusalem kicked out every Jew.
Here was the real theft.
link to hsje.org
“the British Mandate”
British Mandate? That creep Reker got a whole week with his rent-boy, and he’s a Christian Zionist!
“Here was the real theft”
Sure, maybe, but why, as an American in 2010, is that my problem? Cause you don’t like Arabs? Sorry, Shamir, not our problem,
The Palestininians have been subjected to brutal zionist control for over 60 years. And this brutal reality continues every day. The Israel apologists ignore this Big Picture. Here is a good extended example of how they do it–[Witty et al (Hasbara contingent here) are not as good at it because Mondoweiss regulars are well-informed]:
link to groups.google.com