Can the Israeli government kill Americans with impunity?

Israel/Palestine
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For several days, Israel has been able to contain some of the fallout from the flotilla massacre by withholding information about the dead and injured. The object of this exercise has clearly been to slow the flow of information in the hope that by the time the most damning facts become known, the international media’s attention will have turned elsewhere.

But the dead now have names and faces and one turns out to be a nineteen-year-old American: Furkan Dogan.

Dogan is alleged to have been shot with five bullets, four in the head.

Does the Obama administration intend to investigate the circumstances in which one of its citizens was killed? Protecting the lives of Americans is after all the most fundamental responsibility of our government.

Dogan’s death was presumably instant, but according to Al Jazeera’s Jamal Elshayyal there were others on board the Mavi Marmara who died because Israeli soldiers refused to treat their injuries.

“After the shooting and the first deaths, people put up white flags and signs in English and Hebrew. An Isreali [on the ship] asked the soldiers to take away the injured, but they did not and the injured died on the ship.”

Crimes have been committed and since the suspects all acted under the direction of the Israeli government and its defense forces and took place on international waters outside Israel’s area of legal jurisdiction, “a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards” — a demand made by the UN Security Council with the support of the Obama administration — cannot be conducted by the Israeli government or a commission appointed by them. An investigation conforming to international standards must also be an international inquiry.

This is cross-posted at Woodward’s site, War in Context.

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  1. marc b.
    June 3, 2010, 1:28 pm

    more from Oren, yet again simply too dumb for words.

    Michael Oren, Israel’s ambassador to the United States, told National Public Radio’s Diane Rehm Show today that the Mavi Marmara was to big to stop without the use of military force. “The particular ship that did encounter the violent incident was simply too large to stop by nonviolent means. The others ships were not and that is one of the reasons they were towed safely to port,” Oren said on the program that aired today.

    link to windowintopalestine.blogspot.com

    • eGuard
      June 3, 2010, 1:44 pm

      Oren: towed safely to port
      - towed? More likely by their own power.
      - safely? What is that supposed to mean?

      Btw, on the USS Liberty, in 2000 Oren wrote the “Case [that wouldn't get] Closed”.

      • Philip Munger
        June 3, 2010, 3:47 pm

        In 1967, in the weeks before the 40th anniversary of the attempted sinking of the U.S.S. Liberty, I sought to engage Oren in correspondence about flaws in his account of the incident, particularly the timeline, which is highly inaccurate, and the role of the torpedo boats, which is distorted through several omissions. He received my correspondence, but did not respond.

        Sadly, his book on the Six-Day War, is probably the best there is in terms of a military campaign book overall, in spite of its many errors, omissions and distortions.

      • Philip Munger
        June 3, 2010, 5:44 pm

        I meant “In 2007.” sorry.

      • eGuard
        June 3, 2010, 5:48 pm

        PhMunger: I understand you mean “40 yrs after 1967″=2007.

        Oren’s piece in 2000 (announced in Azure) ,
        leaned munch on Judge A. Jay Cristol (from Florida, if I remember well). Cristol’s findings (as in: “opinons”) were tested negative by the more serious USS Liberty-researchers. Also, Oren did mention that Cristol was a judge (irrelevant) but not that he was Jewish (possibly relevant).

    • Les
      June 3, 2010, 2:23 pm

      NPR is easily the most important member of the Israel Lobby. Somehow this fits in with “your tax dollars at work” whether money for NPR or supplying Israel with white phosphorous.

    • potsherd
      June 3, 2010, 2:57 pm

      This is a confession that they intended all along to use violent means.

      • Psychopathic god
        June 3, 2010, 2:59 pm

        indeed it is potsherd.
        the astonishing thing is they don’t think we’re smart enough to know that, or they’re too dumb to realize they’re confessing.

      • Oscar
        June 3, 2010, 3:08 pm

        Agreed! The inconsistency of the hasbara will no doubt lead to an extensive internal self-investigation by the Israelis, but not the massacre itself.

      • Oscar
        June 3, 2010, 3:09 pm

        I mean a self-investigation of its Ministry of Hasbara, not the IDF, of course.

  2. lysias
    June 3, 2010, 1:31 pm

    What was the situation that resulted in Dogan being plugged with four bullets in the head and one in the chest at close range? One poster on the Internet said the Turkish news said the shots came from above.

    • annie
      June 3, 2010, 1:42 pm

      if they came from above i doubt they would be described as ‘close range’ which usually implies execution style.

      • lysias
        June 3, 2010, 1:50 pm

        If he was lying on the deck, and somebody fired at him standing right above him, I think that would count as close range.

      • annie
        June 3, 2010, 2:05 pm

        i don’t know enough about the terminology to determine what close range means wrt weapons-speak but it seems unlikely he would be targeted 4 times in the head from a helicopter simply because he would presumably fall the first time he was hit, unless he was targeted at the same time by 4 different snipers.

        passengers said they disarmed the first of the idf guys and were throwing the guns in the ocean. perhaps he was targeted as retribution after this incidence i really have no idea.

      • annie
        June 3, 2010, 2:09 pm

        i’m sorry, i misunderstood you lysias. i’m not thinking too clearly today.

    • eGuard
      June 3, 2010, 1:45 pm

      You think they stopped firing once they, eh, landed on the deck?

    • syvanen
      June 3, 2010, 6:48 pm

      The Israelis have word for those 4 shots to the head — I believe it is called ‘confirming the kill’. This is Israeli humor.

      I first heard this term a few years back in discussion about the IDF captain who shot the 8 year school child who was walking in front of his position.

  3. Colin Murray
    June 3, 2010, 1:46 pm

    Thus far the answer has been ‘yes’. Given that there has still not been justice for the US Navy and NSA personnel killed and wounded by Israel’s 1967 attack on the USS Liberty, I won’t be holding my breath that a Lobby-beholden Congress and Presidential administration will do anything to seek justice for Mr. Dogan’s murder.

  4. Seham
    June 3, 2010, 1:58 pm

    If they didn’t care about Rachel Corrie, they certainly won’t care about a Turkish-Muslim-American.

    • annie
      June 3, 2010, 4:20 pm

      fyi

      Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the victim was Furkan Dogan and that U.S. authorities in Turkey had met with Dogan’s father to express condolences and to offer U.S. consular services. She added that two other American citizens had been injured — one in the raid and the other during a subsequent protest — and the U.S. was seeking information about all three from Israel.

      “Protecting the welfare of American citizens is a fundamental repsponsibility of our government and one that we take very seriously,” she told reporters. “We are in constant contact with the Israeli government attempting to obtain more information about our citizens.”

      source

      • Psychopathic god
        June 3, 2010, 7:49 pm

        I called the State Department on May 31 to register a complaint. The person who answered connected me to another line for “Americans abroad in an emergency situation.”

        On that line, a recording informed me that the offices were closed for the holiday, call back later.

        American citizens were in Israeli custody, in an emergency situation, at that very moment, and the best Hillary Clinton’s State Department could do was play a recorded message.

        Hillary Clinton is STILL “attempting to obtain more information about our citizens?”

        WTF???

        How ’bout she ring up some of her AIPAC bff s; what are friends for, anyway?

      • Colin Murray
        June 3, 2010, 7:54 pm

        Hilary Clinton is so lame. While she’s been trying to avoid stepping on Zionist toes and weaseling around “attempting to obtain more information about our citizens,” the Turks have already free ALL of theirs.

  5. Rupa Shah
    June 3, 2010, 2:02 pm

    The question is “Can the Israeli government kill Americans with impunity?”

    But of course. This is not the first time and will not be the last time. Sadly I wonder, who will be next? And after all, who is to blame for Israeli govt’s impunity?

    • Duscany
      June 3, 2010, 2:52 pm

      If I were Helen Thomas, I’d sure be careful about where I slept these days. Also, since she’s probably got a few bucks, it might be time for her to hire a food taster too.

      • Duscany
        June 3, 2010, 5:58 pm

        There’s a note on my previous comment (June 3, 2:52 am) that it’s “awaiting moderation.” Does that mean someone thinks it’s a threat to Helen Thomas? Actually it’s an expression of concern for her safety. Yesterday she verbally eviscerated Obama press secretary Robert Gibbs about the flotilla debacle. The point of my post is that it’s not safe to do that sort of thing in public anymore. Especially on a touchy subject like the attack on the flotilla. Thus my not entirely facetious suggestion that Thomas be careful where she slept and hire herself a food taster.

  6. Frances
    June 3, 2010, 2:06 pm

    Can the Israeli government kill Americans with impunity?

    Short answer : Yes
    Long answer : The US is deeply concerned over the death of an American citizen. However, there is still no daylight between us and the Israeli government. ‘Sides, the kid wasn’t a REAL American so there’s nothing to worry about. As you were!

    • Surcouf
      June 3, 2010, 3:29 pm

      I guess you are right Frances, he wasn’t a REAL American. But would REAL Americans say about this? Juan Cole clears it up for us:

      Hey, Tea Party. A foreign navy boarded an unarmed ship flying the flag of a NATO member in international waters and shot dead an American citizen with four bullets to the head and one in the chest on Memorial Day. It did this while the head of the belligerent state was on his way to a state visit to Washington, DC, to be awarded a further $200 million in aid on top of the $3 billion of American taxpayer money the US gives away to him every year.
      If you are not upset by this, your tea is weak, man. Weak.

      This is a link

  7. radii
    June 3, 2010, 2:22 pm

    don’t forget, Mossad announced publicly back in 2003 they would kill Americans on American soil, so this is nothing for the israeli MONSTER

  8. Amar
    June 3, 2010, 2:27 pm

    Something the Palestinians, even children face all too often.

    The Israeli army has cleared an officer accused of repeatedly firing into the lifeless body of a young Palestinian girl of “unethical” behaviour…

    …The killing of Palestinian civilians does not always make much news in Israel. And it is unusual for the army to launch an investigation into the circumstances of such incidents, says the BBC’s James Reynolds in Jerusalem.

    Without revealing their identities, soldiers from the Givati brigade platoon told Israeli television how their officer sprayed Iman al-Hams with automatic gunfire on 5 October in the Tel Sultan neighbourhood of Rafah – a restricted area near Gaza’s border with Egypt.

    “We saw her from a distance of 70m. She was fired at … from the outpost. She fled and was wounded,” a soldier said.

    While Iman was lying, wounded or dead, about 70m from the Israeli guard post, the platoon commander approached her and fired two bullets from close range at her head, the soldiers said.

    He then went back a second time, put his weapon on the automatic setting and – ignoring their objections on the walkie-talkie – emptied his entire magazine into her body.

    But the army says it accepts the commander’s claim that he fired into the ground near the girl after coming under fire in a dangerous area.

    It has not explained why the officer shot into the ground rather than at the source of the fire.

    “The investigation did not find that the company or the company commander had acted unethically,” an army statement said…

    link to news.bbc.co.uk

    • syvanen
      June 3, 2010, 6:52 pm

      This is the incident where I first heard the term ‘confirming the kill’ that is mentioned in the post above.

  9. radii
    June 3, 2010, 2:41 pm

    the israeli army “bloods” their soldiers as soon as possible (makes them commit violence against a Palestinian) in order to desensitize them to the atrocities they will ask them to commit later, so this type of sociopathic behavior is the norm

    • lysias
      June 3, 2010, 2:56 pm

      Gangs do that too.

    • potsherd
      June 3, 2010, 2:59 pm

      The Japanese did this in the conquest of China. They lined up Chinese prisoners and made the recruits hack off their heads with a sword.

  10. Psychopathic god
    June 3, 2010, 2:44 pm

    If anybody who reads this hates me for what I am about to write, you can’t hate me any more than I hate myself for forming the thoughts.

    Israel has killed Americans (among others) with impunity for over 40 years.
    Nothing US leaders can do to Israel will bring Israel to heel, mostly because neither the administration nor the Congress WILL do anything.

    The social contract conveys administration of justice to the hands of the government. If the government abdicates its responsibility, the people will take it into their own hands.

    If administration of justice devolves to the hands of the people, it is not implausible that it will get ugly.

    the short version of the shape this devolution might take is that Israeli institutions or people will become targets.

    please please please, this is not advocating for, threatening, or even warning: it is an observation of the patterns of human nature. The US is weak economically, morally and spiritually. The only ‘strength’ we have left is firepower.

    Another article stated that Israel is backed into a corner and can be expected to lash out; and yet another article linked to a display of Knesset in meltdown. Are the American people to be expected to be exemplars of forbearance while their leaders are either lapdogs or mad dogs?
    Has it come to pass that the only thing that will convince Israel’s leaders to recognize that Americans do not share ‘kill with impunity’ as a means of solving problems, is if Americans kill Israelis?

    What if that is the only moral choice we the people have? Israel is targeting Turkey as well as Iran and Gaza. Are we the people to permit the people of Turkey and Iran and Gaza to suffer further harm because we failed to call OUR country to account? That’s cowardice.

    • decentjew
      June 3, 2010, 2:57 pm

      A 20 year old girl joins a peaceful protest to oppose an attack on a humanitarian vessel. Israel responds by shooting her in the face with a tear gas canister and blinding her. This, after 60 years of massacre, land theft, ethnic cleansing and brutalization.

      The United States government is morally and legally DUTY BOUND to enter Israel, if necessary, by force..to drag their leadership out by the hair, put them on trial before the eyes of the world and HANG them.

      If the US will not assume its responsibility then yes I DO support independent attacks on Israel..their trains, busses, museums, shopping centers, discoteques, ice cream parlors, water companies, electricity companies, the ministry of health, the ministry of labor, the ministry of finance, the knesset and everywhere else, without restriction.

      No one aquatinted with the facts can muster sympathy for the Israelis at this time.

      FUCK the Israelis.

      • Psychopathic god
        June 3, 2010, 3:00 pm

        who knew the Golden Rule was all about Karma.

      • Homer
        June 3, 2010, 7:23 pm

        decentjew, I ask you again to moderate your language – for your own sake and for the reputation of this blog. I don’t really want to see you banned from here, but statements like this are unacceptable:

        “If the US will not assume its responsibility then yes I DO support independent attacks on Israel..their trains, busses, museums, shopping centers, discoteques, ice cream parlors, water companies, electricity companies, the ministry of health, the ministry of labor, the ministry of finance, the knesset and everywhere else, without restriction.”

        Have you considered the possibility that legal action might be taken against you for making such statements in the U.S? Incitement to violence is not protected speech.

        I understand (I think) the feelings you have about this, but there are more effective, and more moral, solutions than the violent approach you keep advocating.

      • yonira
        June 4, 2010, 12:23 am

        Good point homer, i think I may pursue that.

        Thanks for posting your CP article on here DJ.

      • J Crow
        June 3, 2010, 7:44 pm

        I can muster sympathy for any Israeli who is a child, a non-combatant, who is a refusenik, who belongs to Gush Shalom, who has ever been arrested for opposing the falangization of Israel, or any other person in Israel who stands for justice.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:15 am

        DJ reported for incitement to violence.

    • robin
      June 3, 2010, 3:50 pm

      No. Wanton murder is an absolute evil, even in response to wanton murder. And it is not effective. As a strategy, it is lazy and born of irrationality. Your suggestions would bring pain without benefits to anyone.

      Commit thought and energy to effective strategies. Sail a ship to Gaza! That strategy has been incredibly effective outside of the U.S., despite the lengths to which Israel went to control the damage. Real sanctions from Europe are closer now as a result. And even in America, there may have been a positive effect in public opinion if not policy – it surely hasn’t hurt the situation here.

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 4:06 pm

        robin, I support ALL of these non-violent measures completely. But the acid test is for them to work. You tell me they will eventually. 60 years is a long time and the conditions for Palestinians are the worst ever.

        The Obama administration–the most liberal, Palestine-friendly government the United States can ever reasonably hope to have, has hung the Palestinians out to dry and made it abundantly clear that it will go to such unprecedented levels of depravity as to block the UN report on Cast Lead atrocities and more recently, to shield the murderers of innocent humanitarian activists, including US citizens.

        The Palestinians were doing better and had MORE hope back when they were able to attack Israel and exact some measure of retribution.

        The worst possible scenario is when you have one side doing all the dying and the other doing all the killing. It is the most unjust, the cruelest to the victims and leads to a state of utter hopelessness. It’s also a condition that can persist indefinitely. It costs the Israelis nothing in terms of lives and even the monetary cost is billed to the US.

      • Shmuel
        June 3, 2010, 4:19 pm

        DJ,

        The things you suggest have no more – and almost certainly less – chance of accomplishing anything good than non-violent struggle. It is true that every moment lost is a tragedy for the Palestinian, and it is true that the efficacy of non-violent direct action in this case has far from proven itself. That is not a good enough reason however, to “try something else”. It reminds me of Israelis who insist on military action in Gaza or in Lebanon, even when they know that the outcome will, in all likelihood, be worse than ignoring the odd qassam or katyusha, because “we can’t just sit around and do nothing”.

      • demize
        June 3, 2010, 4:22 pm

        I am sympathetic to this train of thought.

      • demize
        June 3, 2010, 4:24 pm

        That is with PG and DJ.

      • Shmuel
        June 3, 2010, 4:29 pm

        Also, it is not as if the Palestinians have eschewed violence until now. The violent struggle is nothing new, and would appear to have been a miserable failure (except in the case of Hizbollah, but that’s a very different situation).

      • droog
        June 3, 2010, 4:45 pm

        Whereas a Ghandi style non-violent attack wouldn’t work with the Nazis and wouldn’t work with the Zionist core; it would work with the wider american people, and america can end this whatever the hive might think. Ghandi used the fine upstanding principles of the British Empire to force us out.
        If the lie in the minds of mainstreet America can be broken and fundamental American principles, like Liberty, melting-pot etc. be brought into play as a solution Ghandism can work with the Levant.

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 5:00 pm

        I suspect consciousness raising has gone about as far as it can go, and has been a remarkable success. Most of the world now recognizes Israel as an intolerable threat to humankind.

        But we MUST be honest with ourselves, no matter how dispiriting reality may be.

        The run up to the Iraq war had the largest global non-violent protests ever in the history of the world. People came out in astonishing numbers and polls showed in country after country that the entire planet was 75-95% vehemently opposed to the attack. It didn’t stop a catastrophe that has so far cost over 1 million lives, utterly devastated a country with not one single person held to account for this spectacular crime.

        yes…we once protested Vietnam non-violently. Still–had anyone recommended non-violence to the Vietnamese as a means of opposing the blanketing of their country with napalm, he would have been urged to have his head examined.

      • silencenolonger
        June 3, 2010, 5:48 pm

        decentjew
        60% of Democratic party funds comes from Jews, Jews are 2% of the population, and 20% of Democrat Senators are Jews. Obama’s chief of staff is the son to a gun runner to Jewish terrorists, his chief financial people are Jews. The media is controlled by Jews, Les Moonves (CBS) is related to Ben Gurion, the largest shareholder for Disney (ABC) is Shamrock Holdings based in Tel Aviv, Warner Brothers (CNN) entire top management are Jews.
        When it comes to Israel except for people like the people on this blog most Jews hear no evil, see no evil and speak no evil. When Jimmy Carter spoke out when Desmond Tutu spoke out, when Chris Hedges former senior middle east correspondent of the NYT speaks out, when the Goldstone, Finkelstein any Jew who dares criticize Israel, they are castigated they reputations assailed. They control the teachers union, they run the most prestigious Universities. They promote like minded Jews, award them contracts, funnel insider information, they are rascist to the core. The Zionists will lie, they will kill, they will blackmail, they will destroy people to get their way. They are the biggest risk to peace on the planet and they run the US Government, with money, threats, blackmail, and lies.

      • sherbrsi
        June 3, 2010, 6:42 pm

        If the lie in the minds of mainstreet America can be broken and fundamental American principles, like Liberty, melting-pot etc. be brought into play as a solution Ghandism can work with the Levant.

        I am certain a Ghandi-style struggle wouldn’t work any better with the Americans than it would be the Zionists.

        The Zionists deliberately focus most of their Hasbara activities in America, keeping the Americans in the darkest with their constant and established onslaught of propaganda.

        Seeing the muted response of the Obama administration, even in face of having its own citizen murdered in the massacre, only strengthens my perception that the Americans are simply too loyal to Zionism, or have been too dumbed down in the realm of international affairs, to be worthy of appealing to in any form of Palestinian liberation activity.

      • Psychopathic god
        June 3, 2010, 7:58 pm

        please understand and allow me to emphasize: I absolutely do NOT ADVOCATE violence; I am observing what may be a pattern of human nature that may occur.

        When I consider the Gaza flotilla I think about that scene in the film, Ghandi, when Indian men marched in ranks into mounted British troops who beat them with clubs.
        Indian women helped the wounded men out of the field, and another rank of men took their place.
        Row upon row. They saw men beaten before them, but the next rank carried on.

        I don’t know where that sort of courage comes from.

        Surely Obama could risk some campaign contributions if Ferkun Dogan can risk, and lose, his life.

      • Chu
        June 4, 2010, 10:12 am

        P God, Since Obama has been elected, I realize that the country is bankrupt in a multitude of ways. The nation preferred this idea of hope, since others had no vision for the future of this country. Hope was the offering, but that has not manifested itself since the inauguration.

        The entire political sphere is corrupt when a nation like Israel, corrupt in the World’s Eyes, is the first priority of the Congress and the media. Unless that gremlin of a priority can be removed from the controls, we will be grounded here indefinitely.

        And, the flotilla is the smoking gun of proof.

  11. Driss Moonves
    June 3, 2010, 2:49 pm

    Had Dogan been killed on the Achille Lauro, perhaps the US government would have shown more interest.

    • potsherd
      June 3, 2010, 2:59 pm

      If he were a Jew.

      • lysias
        June 3, 2010, 3:57 pm

        Emily Henochowicz is a Jew.

      • yonira
        June 3, 2010, 7:50 pm

        Emily was a pawn to the ISM, the real, and possible the only winner in this tragedy(great PR, check their website). If her dad plans on suing anyone, he’d have a better chance winning against them rather than the State.

      • sherbrsi
        June 3, 2010, 7:57 pm

        Emily was a pawn to the ISM

        And you imagine yourself to be some great, independent thinker, linking to MEMRI and other Hasbara sites?

      • yonira
        June 3, 2010, 8:00 pm

        not sure what the correlation is sherbrsi, you link to anti-hasbara and pro-Palestinians sites, how is that less absurd than what i do?

        The ISM puts kids in harms way and then uses it as PR, the least they could do was give them some PPE when they put them in these dangerous situations.

      • sherbrsi
        June 3, 2010, 8:03 pm

        you link to anti-hasbara and pro-Palestinians sites

        You’ll have to give me evidence or shut up.

        The ISM puts kids in harms way and then uses it as PR,

        Great. The Rachel Corrie defense. And the exact same excuse used to justify the latest Israeli massacre.

        You depraved Zionists never give up, do you?

      • demize
        June 3, 2010, 10:46 pm

        Thats similar to they shake their ass so temptingly, they’re bound to get raped defense?

      • demize
        June 3, 2010, 10:57 pm

        Sorry, I had to further reply. You remove all agency from her as well as the soldier. Like it was a natural occurrence, something that just happened. No she made a moral calculation, she was aware that it was dangerous but could not stand by and do nothing knowing what she knew. You also remove agency from the soldier, as if the trigger to his weapon was connected to the demonstrators and their very presence forced him to respond in the way he did. no he made a malicious decision, on some level he knew it was immoral but because of his nationalism, challenge to his petty authority, the fact that he was enraged by her courage, who the fuck knows, he made the morally repugnant decision to use armed force against an unarmed woman. That this is policy, that he is reasonably sure there will be no consequences, that he has been indoctrinated, doesn’t make the act any less atrocious. Because unless he is a criminal sociopath he on some level knows what he did was wrong.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:32 am

        Is it really that hard to muster a little sympathy, yonira, a little understanding, a little outrage at the (mis)use if potentially lethal weapons against unarmed demonstrators?

        You will undoubtedly tell me that I don’t know what actually happened, that the soldier was probably in a life-threatening situation, that he didn’t have time to use his crowd-control weapon correctly, that mistakes happen, that he was just a kid, that he probably feels terrible, maybe scarred for life, etc.

        Consider this. Maybe Emily knew exactly what she was doing, participating in a non-violent demonstration against injustice, and was shot senselessly by a soldier who had been taught and ordered (at least implicitly) to use a non-lethal crowd-control weapon in an illegal and potentially fatal manner, taught to treat dissenters as enemies and to treat enemies as less than human.

      • yonira
        June 4, 2010, 12:47 am

        I am very sympathetic Shmuel, it was a tragedy, the girl was a talented beautiful girl who will be maimed the rest of her life.

        I guess I am just questioning how much influence ISM had on her decision to be where she was. These ISM activists seem like they are always in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can’t admit that killed and maimed Americans is great press for the ISM:

        link to palsolidarity.org

        Rachel Corrie, Tristan Anderson, Brian Avery, Kate Edwards, and now Emily Henochowicz. All victim of Israeli aggression and ISM negligence. Hopefully Emily’s father goes after both the IDF and ISM, they must stop putting Americans in harms way.

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 1:04 am

        Do you suppose either of your college buds are wearing Emily’s severed eyeball as a necklace, hmm? Would be a fitting trophy for you all to cheer around on the next reunion. But of course, those evil mind controlling Moooslims obviously tricked her into walking into their paths and, hey, IDF soldiers are just mindless Jewish killing machines, huh?

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 1:04 am

        yonira,

        ISM does great work in a difficult and dangerous situation. I’ve met some of their volunteers, and they are some of the most savvy and aware people you’ll ever want to meet. Pawns is hardly the word for them. You’ve managed to deal with the “blaming the victim” issue by implying that the direct victim is an unfortunate dupe, but by blaming ISM, you are still blaming the victim.

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 4, 2010, 1:21 am

        It’s amazing what Israel love can do to people! I’m speechless! You’re putting the blame EQUALLY on the ISM and the IKF, yonira?

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 1:23 am

        Of course he is. Did you expect anything different?

        As I said earlier. He hasn’t changed. He fucking hates Muslims. To the point where he equates the actions of peaceful, courageous, generous Muslims with that of bloodthirsty, marauding, murderous Zionist butchers.

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 1:24 am

        Never mind that the ISM is Muslims and Christians. Oh, and Jews, come to think of it. But of course they’re all brainwashed by the scary, scary Aye-rabs.

      • Tobias
        June 4, 2010, 2:21 am

        Chaos, will you ever just leave Yonira alone? He has his points of view and he defends them. They differ from yours. He seems a reasonable chap. But yet you attack everything he says. You’re letting some weird resentment get the better of you. And it’s plain and painful to see. Imho, Yonira is just another imperfect human like the rest of us here. Try to calm the anger down. You’re better than that.

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 2:40 am

        Yonira’s point of view is that I’m a basement-dwelling, meth-snorting faggot. He also thinks its fun to laugh at the misfortune of Gazan children who have painted donkeys instead of zebras, and he also thinks all those photos of dead people, demolished buildings and starving children from Gaza are fake.

        Or are you a newcomer to the blog?

      • Psychopathic god
        June 4, 2010, 7:41 am

        I keep going back to M Levine’s link to Prof Qumsiyeh, challenging IDF that they were NOT passive moral actors, they had the option NOT to do what they were doing and the obligation to make a moral decision link to mondoweiss.net

      • Psychopathic god
        June 4, 2010, 12:09 pm

        Tobias, would you like to borrow a paintball gun to paint a target on your back ?– (better yet, aim for your eyes: IDF is known to refit paintball guns to shoot pepperspray)

        yonira is an israel apologist. deserves all this site can dish up & more.

      • Tobias
        June 4, 2010, 11:27 pm

        Pg, with all Jew respect, spare me the groupthink. I stand by what I said to Chaos.

      • Taxi
        June 5, 2010, 12:05 am

        If you observe carefully, Tobias, you’ll notice how much yonira relishes the attention.

        Most of the time.

        You’ll also note that yonira is a mud-ball peddler himself, so what’s the big deal? You’re not trying to say that yonira is being victimized, are you? Cause that would be seriously bwahaha.

        If you’re too sensitive to witness any more of their interactions, Tobias, then you best excuse yourself from the rumble and leave the brawlers to it.

        This site is not for the faint of heart or the thin-skinned.

  12. olive
    June 3, 2010, 3:11 pm

    Interesting debate, although I must ask why the heck CAIR is spending time debating the Israelis?

    “Florida Muslim radio-host debates the Israeli Consul General. Full of important talking points to refute the Israeli Spin.”

    link to muslimmatters.org

    • Tobias
      June 4, 2010, 1:50 am

      Thanks for the link. I listened to the debate. Thought Ahmed Bedier was good as was the moderator. Guess if you let people talk their arguments raise or fall under their own weight. By the end the Israeli Consul was certainly struggling, having gone through the checklist. He also sounded flat, almost like he didn’t believe his own points of view. Kept hoping Bedier would ask him to compare the Apartheid, he grew up under in South Africa, to his adopted Israeli version. Btw, do you think the English-speaking Israeli spokesmen are coached to snuffle the h in Hamas and Hezbollah? I mean they’re fluent English speakers but seem to give both a sinister guttural emphasis. I noticed it first a few years ago with the Australian Regev, and thought; he’s just showing off. Now I’m beginning to think it might be a Frank Luntz idea.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 2:01 am

        Btw, do you think the English-speaking Israeli spokesmen are coached to snuffle the h in Hamas and Hezbollah? I mean they’re fluent English speakers but seem to give both a sinister guttural emphasis.

        If you live in Israel, it sounds very silly to pronounce Hamas and Hezbollah (or Ahmedinejad or Hummus or Tehina or Halva) à l’anglaise, even when speaking English. It’s not an affectation or a strategy. Notice also that the pronunciation is thoroughly (Ashkenazi) Israeli (“kh”) and not Arabic.

      • Tobias
        June 4, 2010, 2:32 am

        Hmm. So Frank Luntz is clearly more influential in Israel than I’d given him credit :) Thanks.

  13. robin
    June 3, 2010, 3:41 pm

    Will this be reported in the mainstream media? Will our leaders even be asked to comment on it? The story is nowhere to be found in a quick look around CNN.com.

    The Israeli media strategy seems to have worked beyond belief. By locking up the demonstrators, and hiding information about the victims, it delayed their humanization until after the story passed. Meanwhile, it saturated the airwaves with its explanations and lies while suppressing by force the eyewitness accounts (and footage) of the surviving activists. Maybe some foreign media outlets had too much integrity to go along with this manipulation. But in the United States it appears to have been a total victory.

    • sherbrsi
      June 3, 2010, 3:51 pm

      The Israeli media strategy seems to have worked beyond belief. By locking up the demonstrators, and hiding information about the victims, it delayed their humanization until after the story passed.

      When the American media strategy is no different than that of Israel, it becomes clear that regardless of the efforts of Israeli PR working overtime, the Americans would be kept in the dark about the massacre at home.

      Too many key Zionist propagandists jumped on the opportunity to legitimize the raid using the usual Hasbara talking-points and ridiculous notions of “self-defense” against “Jihadists” hellbent on Israel’s destruction. The audience waiting to gobble that narrative up in America is countless.

      Perhaps there is a silver lining in this that the international community, and Europe especially, has awakened to the fact that the problem is not only Israel’s commission of atrocities but America’s routine shielding of it.

    • lysias
      June 3, 2010, 3:56 pm

      Hillary Clinton and a State Dept. spokesman have now commented on the Dogan murder, but they did not indicate there would be any action: US-Turkish man killed in Israeli flotilla raid:

      Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said the victim was Furkan Dogan and that U.S. authorities in Turkey had met with Dogan’s father to express condolences and to offer U.S. consular services. She added that two other American citizens had been injured in raid and in a subsequent protest and the U.S. was seeking information about all three from Israel.

      “Protecting the welfare of American citizens is a fundamental repsponsibility of our government and one that we take very seriously,” she told reporters. “We are in constant contact with the Israeli government attempting to obtain more information about our citizens.”

      State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said Dogan, who was born in Troy, N.Y., had died of “gunshot wounds” but he declined to confirm reports that he had been shot multiple times in the head. Crowley said U.S. consular officials had seen Dogan’s body in a morgue in Israel before it was taken to Turkey but had not known he was a dual citizen at the time.

      Clinton said no decision had yet been made about how to handle Dogan’s death but renewed calls for Israel to “conduct a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation that conforms to international standards and gets to all the facts surrounding this tragic event.”

      …l

      “If we think a crime has been committed, then working with the host government we have the option of our own investigation,” Crowley said. Asked if the FBI had gotten involved, he said: “”At this point, no.”

      • potsherd
        June 3, 2010, 5:10 pm

        If you want an impoartial, credible and transparent investigation, send Richard Goldstone to do it. If you want a coverup full of lies, send Israel.

      • Homer
        June 4, 2010, 12:39 am

        “‘If we think a crime has been committed, then working with the host government we have the option of our own investigation,’ Crowley said.”

        In this case, the “host” government would be Turkey, since the murder occurred in international waters on a Turkisk vessel which, I believe, was flying the Turkish flag.

    • silencenolonger
      June 3, 2010, 5:31 pm

      robin
      not a word on cnn or msnbc. The Zionist control of the media is complete.

      • Bumblebye
        June 3, 2010, 6:22 pm

        This is a list from Judaism Online;
        link to simpletoremember.com

        It’s probably short a few.

      • silencenolonger
        June 3, 2010, 10:00 pm

        Bumblebye
        There is also Steve Baumer Microsoft, an dof course Google whose “technical support” is run out of Tel Aviv

      • yonira
        June 3, 2010, 10:12 pm

        wow, that is a list…….

        the cards are stacked against ya’ll when it comes to the media i guess.

      • Homer
        June 4, 2010, 1:03 am

        As everyone who follows this story would know, this list is just a small fraction of the Jews in highly influential or controlling positions in American media. The complete list would be a very long one. Top management of our media is almost exclusively a Jewish country club.

        That reflects and explains a great deal about modern American society.

  14. sherbrsi
    June 3, 2010, 3:44 pm

    I wonder what Chomsky has to say about the whole affair, and the whole special relationship in light of this blatant act of Israeli murder and American support.

  15. Taxi
    June 3, 2010, 3:46 pm

    R.I.P. Furkan Dogan.

    He seem like a nice and warm person from his pictures with his sweet face caught right there between tender boyhood and budding manhood.

    Family and friends of Furkan, if you’re reading this, please know that all decent citizens around the world remember Furkan and his fallen friends – the world in unison bless them and salute them. The whole decent world is WILLING them swift, non-negotiable justice.

    What a truly sad loss of life and well-intended youth.

  16. DICKERSON3870
    June 3, 2010, 3:51 pm

    RE: “Dogan is alleged to have been shot with five bullets, four in the head.” – Woodward
    MY COMMENT: Shot? This sounds more like an execution!

  17. Avi
    June 3, 2010, 4:08 pm

    In July of 2008, when Obama went to visit Sderot and give his everlasting support to Israel, he stated:

    “If missiles were falling where my two daughters sleep, I would do everything in order to stop that.”

    Of course, when Israel bombarded Gaza and killed 400 sons and daughters of Palestinians, Obama did nothing.

    Clearly, Furkan Dogan is not Obama’s son and he is not an Israeli citizen, so once again, Obama will do nothing.

  18. Julian
    June 3, 2010, 4:33 pm

    • thankgodimatheist
      June 3, 2010, 6:21 pm

      It’s edited and truncated, Julian the faker. It doesn’t show what happened before that moment they rappeled from the helicopter. What is the IKF trying to hide?

      • Shmuel
        June 3, 2010, 11:55 pm

        It doesn’t show what happened before that moment they rappeled from the helicopter.

        That’s what Haneen Zoabi told the Knesset. Where’s the rest of the footage? Where’s all the film they confiscated? If they’re so sure they’re right, what are they afraid of?

      • yonira
        June 4, 2010, 12:06 am

        Shmuel,

        Here is a pretty fair assessment of what happened before the Israeli footage began.

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 12:08 am

        So? A bunch of murderous pirates were desperately fought off in international waters by a ragtag crew of volunteers who were desperate to keep the inhumane bastards from plundering a cargo hold full of desperately needed relief supplies.

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 4, 2010, 1:27 am

        This video doesn’t show the moment the IKF boarded the ship…With the 2 videos we have here it’s either too early or too late. Where’s the in between? All witnesses are saying that the soldiers opened fire before or upon boarding the ship. Why is this cut from the footage?

    • decentjew
      June 3, 2010, 6:32 pm

      I much prefer this one:

      link to pbase.com

      • Avi
        June 3, 2010, 6:42 pm

        Both you and Julian are despicable.

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 6:46 pm

        yawn

      • Avi
        June 3, 2010, 7:30 pm

        Yawn all you want. Do you really think what you posted is supposed to be rational? Are you out of touch with reality? If you want to spite Julian, find another way that doesn’t involve you stooping lower than his level. WTF is wrong with you?

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 7:42 pm

        Rational? What part of this catastrophe is rational, Avi? These are people who hold celebrations when aid workers are massacred. These are people who walk around with t shirts showing pregnant Arab women with targets on their bellies. This is a population that expressed 94% enthusiastic approval for the Gaza massacre, according to Tel Aviv University.

        They are not entitled to sympathy, I’m sorry.

      • Chaos4700
        June 3, 2010, 7:44 pm

        decentjew is angered beyond normal human limits. I can sympathize. I’m so fed up with the racist attitudes where I work, with people saying it was a good thing that Israel killed those people on the boats, I’m courting getting fired by speaking out about it.

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 7:50 pm

        I remember my father watching the video on TV of the cops beating the living crap out of Rodney King. He said “they should toss them in jail and let the inmates prey on them.”

        You should meet my dad.

        He makes Gandhi look violent. He’s about as peaceful and gentle a soul as one could find. One of the most gentle people I have ever met…compassionate to a fault. But terrible injustice by people wielding power always caused real anger. I’m sure that’s where I get it from, and no doubt, it is magnified in me. That’s just the way it is.

      • yonira
        June 3, 2010, 8:04 pm

        in all seriousness Chaos, you should watch out about getting too political at work, especially in a conflict with such religious connotations. It could be construed as harassment and employers are all about canning ppl for that these days.

      • syvanen
        June 3, 2010, 8:16 pm

        DJ sounds like god’s chosen. If he was banned, but DJ should go.

      • Avi
        June 3, 2010, 11:09 pm

        He should definitely go. I’m getting tired of having to even scroll through his vile violent rhetoric. I don’t give a crap who’s “side” he imagines himself to be on. It just makes me ill.

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 12:09 am

        Screw you, yonira. Is that why you became a Jew, incidentally? So you could lord it over people at work?

      • yonira
        June 3, 2010, 7:48 pm

        Thank you DJ, you and your ilk got our beloved State another 50 years of existence, easy.

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 12:10 am

        I imagine you’re salivating over the corpses of yet more dead Palestinian children to come as you type, huh.

      • yonira
        June 4, 2010, 12:20 am

        wow Chaos,

        did you have a bad day? you are extra vicious, I can tell when things are bad at home for you. You come on here and viciously attack everything I say, no matter how relevant or irrelevant it is.

        At first it pissed me off, now I am seriously concerned for you, like I said before this is an important time for you and your movement. This is the time for you guys to get your argument out and make real change. Unfortunately you can’t get passed your hatred, it’s sad.

        I should continue to play this game with you, hijacking mondoweiss and diverting from what the real story is. I guess I am sick of the bloodshed and really hope that this is the catalyst for change and for peace in the region.

        It’s up to you, if you want to continue to hijack the blog, go ahead, I am going to continue to play devil’s advocate and call it like i see it.

        The truth will come out, like i said previously, 3/4 of it is already out there(israel fucked up big time). For your sake and for the sake of your movement, i’d take a hiatus from your vendetta and try to actually make some valid arguments, try to changes the hearts and minds of those who are on the cusp.

        Spewing venom at someone who opposes you is not going to win any hearts or minds. They will read your comments and think wow, maybe those Zionists are right, maybe this is a vicious group of people.

        Thanks for wishing death on my friends too Chaos, oh yeah and calling me a Holocaust denier, classy.

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 12:23 am

        Fine. I’ll stand back and let you dig your own grave.

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 8:12 pm

        That was nauseating, DJ. You couldn’t possibly be half as angry as I am right now. Losing it is not a solution.

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 8:23 pm

        I’ve been feeling like throwing up every minute of the day for three days now, yet the idea of placing a bomb in a bus would never cross my mind as measure of revenge. But to be honest, I can’t tell you what I would if I could, do to those mofos in charge in the Israeli gov’t or those top brass in the IKF !
        Let’s just try to keep it tasteful and cool-headed, shall we? You have some quite sound arguments every now and then, why do you need to undermine everything with this insane stuff? Not that that one should discard violent resistance by any means but not like that, IMHO.

      • yonira
        June 3, 2010, 8:26 pm

        does K stand for Kike, atheist, j/k…….

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 8:49 pm

        K for killing..I wrote it many MANY times before. Don’t play that game with me. OK!

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 8:52 pm

        Another thing yonira. I prefer your new subdued tone. Don’t revert to your old ways like you just did with that question.

      • yonira
        June 3, 2010, 8:55 pm

        Atheist,

        sorry, in all honesty it was entirely a joke, i know it wasn’t for kike, just wasn’t sure what it was for ;)

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 9:00 pm

        No problems yonira..

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 9:06 pm

        I got interested in the Israelis, for some reason. So I began to read.

        In addition to all the grim history, I started to read about daily life. I read about the IDF going into a barber shop in the West Bank, dragging out the Palestinians and beating them to a bloody pulp. Hospitalizing them. To show them who’s boss. To teach them who their master is.

        I read about how the Israelis would cut down the trees in the Negev, so that the animals kept by the people there would die of thirst, and the Israelis could herd the Bedouins into the ghettos and concentration camps they created for them.

        The more I read, the sicker I got. Finally, I reached a point of pure contempt for the Israelis. I’m not merely against what they are doing, I am against THEM. I do not recognize their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I do not recognize their right to security and I don’t recognize their right to a state.

        I’m proud of being Jewish.

        I think of what the Jews have endured and suffered over the centuries. I think about all they have created–their spectacular achievements in literature, poetry, music; their pathbreaking investigations in science that have changed even our notions of space and time. And all this so that some Johnny come lately Jewish mafiosi can drag us to hell with them and turn the Star of David into a swastika?

        Pardon me, but fuck that. They have to be fought and their repulsive society, designed and engineered for brutality, has to be dismantled.

        I know most don’t agree with this. But look again at the girl they have just blinded and search your conscience. Can you honestly envision the Israelis living in peace and harmony alongside anyone? I do not believe that they are capable of that.

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 9:32 pm

        “They have to be fought and their repulsive society, designed and engineered for brutality, has to be dismantled.”

        Amen to that but I’m with Mustafa Barghouti on this. What he’s trying to achieve in a non-violent manner is to praised as it is more effective, more efficient, even though I’m not overwhelmingly optimistic either. This beast they’re up against has some teeth..

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 9:45 pm

        “I know most don’t agree with this.”

        All we’re asking for, although we understand your revulsion at the injustice done to our people, please do not undermine the cause with inflammatory, off-limits arguments. You’re right on the diagnosis, but IMHO, you’re wrong on the medicine.

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 10:09 pm

        I’ll try to just shut my trap. I haven’t much to add to what I’ve already said. I get tired of constantly hearing how we shouldn’t say this and we mustn’t say that, for it might hurt the cause.

        I’ve heard people say “don’t mention right of return! You’re giving ammunition to the hard liners who equate this with the destruction of Israel!”

        “Don’t talk about a single democratic state–you’re helping the hard liners!” and so on and so forth.

        Everyone has an idea about what should be out of bounds. In my view, support for Israel should be declared out of bounds. Support for Israel is the thing we should take a zero tolerance approach to.

        I just watched the first couple minutes of a film called jenin jenin. An old Arab man walks through the devastation after Israel bombed and destroyed the place. “Every nest we make, they destroy. Every home we build, they demolish, Every child that is born, they kill. What can we do? Where is God?”

        I feel the anger all over again. It never stays away for very long.

        What do you do–just quit reading the news?

      • Donald
        June 3, 2010, 10:34 pm

        “I’ll try to just shut my trap. I haven’t much to add to what I’ve already said. I get tired of constantly hearing how we shouldn’t say this and we mustn’t say that, for it might hurt the cause.”

        Very touching. So it’s your desire for justice that makes you advocate mass murder. People here aren’t criticizing you for talking about the right of return or a one state solution–you’re in the majority around here and it’s the opponents of ROR that take most of the heat at this blog. You’re being told to shut up because you’ve been advocating terrorism and crimes against humanity.

        I started typing a long paragraph explaining why that was not only immoral, but amazingly stupid, but deleted it. People have explained it to you, so I think that underneath it all you share the same psychology as the people on the other side who glory in the thought of killing those evil terrorists. It’s your love of humanity that makes you want to murder people. I can’t say it’s that unusual, unfortunately.

      • demize
        June 3, 2010, 11:02 pm

        That was well said. Jewish civil war? or WWIII? Im not being a smartass. I’m not advocating for either necessarily, this is just what I see on the horizon.

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 11:03 pm

        ..glad you’ve got it all figured out, Donald. A pity we don’t all have your wisdom. You have unequivocally condemned Palestinians who have chosen to attack Israel, after their homes, lives, children and hopes were obliterated. Fine. You have that right. I’d like to hear you peddle your self-righteousness to the father of one of these martyrs. Let me know how that goes.

      • Donald
        June 3, 2010, 11:20 pm

        I wasn’t talking to Palestinians or for that matter any other person in any war or living under some tyrannical power who has suffered a tragedy–I was talking to a self-important, self-glorifying, immature jackass. That would be you, btw.

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 11:27 pm

        Donald June 3, 2010 at 11:20 pm
        I wasn’t talking to Palestinians or for that matter any other person in any war or living under some tyrannical power who has suffered a tragedy..

        I see. So now you don’t condemn attacks on Israel.

        Try some lithium.

      • Donald
        June 3, 2010, 11:38 pm

        I realize that nuance isn’t your strong point, but try and follow along. It might take every neuron you’ve got–both of them, in fact, but do your best. I don’t lecture individuals who have suffered a personal loss if they express rage or hatred. I understand that in wars and under tyranny people can be motivated to do terrible things. Those actions are wrong, but not having been in that position I’m not sure how I would react, so I hesitate to lecture people who are or have been in such situations. Quite a few Americans reacted with insane rage after 9/11, though,and if they didn’t themselves lose a loved one I had little or no sympathy for them.

        You’re like that. There’s a certain type of person, all too common, who sees a terrible injustice, gets angry, and then starts romanticizing violence or even terrorism. Obviously you are such a person. Your hatred of injustice gives you the excuse you need to embrace support of terrorism. You’re basically the mirror image of what you profess to hate. Congratulations.

        I think you know this too–nobody is really that stupid.

        And that’s all the time I’ll waste on you tonight.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:44 am

        Indecent Jew,
        You remind me of a lot of Israelis I know.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:49 am

        I’d like to hear you peddle your self-righteousness to the father of one of these martyrs.

        You are not a Palestinian, and understanding another’s pain and desperation is not the same as advocating the murder of men, women and children.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:58 am

        It is interesting that in all of these online discussions, the Palestinian commenters (in my experience) tend to be among the most reasoned and humane, and it is non-Palestinian taggers-on who blather on about glorious “martyrdom” (of others) and killing (by others) of civilians in the name of “the cause”.

      • decentjew
        June 4, 2010, 1:35 am

        No wonder you don’t seem very upset about the president of the United States. He certainly doesn’t “advocate the murder of men, women and children.”

        He simply carries it out on a weekly basis in drone attacks that have murdered hundreds and hundreds of people.

        Israel’s DAILY murder of men, women and children—many of them killed BY Israeli civilians, I won’t even start on.

        No..you’re more concerned about any threats to your old stomping ground, shmuel. I get it.

      • Chaos4700
        June 4, 2010, 1:42 am

        Let’s not turn on Shmuel. I don’t like how your opinion is being treated, but then again I DON’T like how extreme you’re taking it either, DJ, but Shmuel is easily one of the most respected commentators on the blog.

        If you go after him, all you’ll get is yonira, Witty and Julian cheering you on. And you do not want those cretins behind you.

      • decentjew
        June 4, 2010, 1:49 am

        At any rate, I’ve gone back on my promise to vacate these threads. Since Donald, Shmuel and Co. have figured out the perfect strategy for saving the Palestinians and bringing peace to the region, I’ll let them carry on without further interference.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 2:20 am

        Thanks, Chaos. I thought that CG/DJ’s opinions were actually treated pretty seriously and respectfully – with the exception of his calls for indiscriminate violence. He has some important and interesting things to say, and his article from CP really is top notch. Too bad his obvious intelligence is clouded by some kind of romantic bloodlust.

        He also reminded me of the old “definition” of Zionism: One Jew paying another Jew to go to Palestine. He seems to be quite willing to fight the glorious fight for Palestinian liberation – down to the last Palestinian.

      • Homer
        June 4, 2010, 4:12 am

        “I do not recognize their right to life, liberty ….”

        decentjew, you wrote a very good piece here with one small exception: the statement above. You have a lot of ability and useful feeling that apparently runs deep. Don’t waste it by advocating solutions that moral people will reject.

        If it’s any consolation, I don’t agree with Donald’s seemingly self-righteous analysis of your psychology. But I would advise you to pay attention to what Shmuel counsels.

      • Walid
        June 4, 2010, 5:29 am

        I disagree, Shmuel, I’m not a Palestinian and I’m not into the martyrdom bullshit or having anyone doing any killing. Most of the Palestinians I know are much more upset with what life and the Jews have dealt them than DecentJew here but they don’t speak up because they are too upset. Those that you know that appear reasoned and humane are probably trying to act westernized to impress you. Some Jews on this site appear moderate for the sake of appearing so and have adopted the Palestinian cause in the same way some had adopted saving the whales (no danaa, I’m not talking about you). DecentJew stinks up the mood for these guys because he’s telling it like it is without buttering it on both sides as they do. How many Jews on this site would endorse the right of return for the Palestinians without going into a song and dance about what that would do to the Jewish character of Israel or describing the 101 formulas for limiting it?

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 5:39 am

        Walid,

        I wasn’t trying to characterise Palestinians in general. I think I’m pretty aware of the range of feelings and views among them. It just seems to me (and explain it how you will) that in these forums, it’s inevitably a non-Palestinian who would like to see a lot more of this kind of “martyrdom”. By the way, I’ve come across Palestinians on these forums who struck me as far more authentically enraged (and rightly so) than DJ, yet never proposed morally indefensible “solutions” like the ones he’s been waving around.

        I don’t see the connection to ROR, and from what I’ve seen, no one here (Jewish or otherwise) minces words about it (except Witty, but he doesn’t count). We’ve seen for and we’ve seen against.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 5:52 am

        BTW, I find the explanation that the Palestinian writers and commenters I was referring to may be “acting westernized to impress” me or anyone else, rather condescending toward them.

      • Donald
        June 4, 2010, 6:17 am

        “f it’s any consolation, I don’t agree with Donald’s seemingly self-righteous analysis of your psychology.”

        Really? The short version of my analysis is that he is partly motivated by hatred of injustice and then he gives way to the pleasures of bloodlust. He keeps urging mass slaughter over and over here and acts like a martyr when people express revulsion for what he has to say, but heaven forbid we be too critical of his motives. I like his analysis too and have said so, except when he starts advocating mass murder. Which side does this genius think is better at mass murder anyway? Not that it should need to be argued on that ground.

        And I shouldn’t need to point this out, but you get this bloodlust in every war and every situation where there is oppression and we understand it from victims without condoning it, but generally don’t excuse it in people standing on the sidelines. Where did Zionist self-righteousness come from? It was the idea that one class of innocent victims was morally more significant than another.

        It’s very much as Orwell said in “Notes on Nationalism”. Atrocities and calls for atrocities are despicable and inhuman when they come from our ideological opponents, but they are laudable or at least understandable responses to injustice when they come from our allies. I have primitive emotions myself but don’t glorify them as noble, while understanding that people who have lost innocent loved ones (whether Palestinian, Israeli,Iraqi, Afghan, American, whatever) might be consumed by those feelings. Now we’re supposed to engage in earnest argument over the question of which class of innocent people it is okay to murder and I’m self-righteous for not having patience with the self-indulgent idiocy of someone who urges the slaughter of Israeli innocents. But hey, they’re ISRAELI innocents, not Palestinian innocents, members of the Oppressor Class and so tainted on that basis and worthy of death.

        Maybe I’ll be a bit less quick to jump on Witty on that dreaded day when he returns and engages in his own version of double standards in a much sneakier way. I mean, I wouldn’t want to be self-righteous. Witty is motivated by very real feelings of pain (and that’s actually true) about the deaths of innocent people at the hands of Hamas. He also makes a distinction between classes of innocent people,–he denies it, but the rest of us can see it plain as day. And the rest of us don’t have much patience with this when Witty does it.

        Whatever.

      • Walid
        June 4, 2010, 6:35 am

        You’re right, Shmuel, my comment about their acting westernized was out of line and out of order and I take it back. I had the Abbas/Fayyad team on my mind when I wrote that and how much Israelis think micely of those Palestinians that don’t disturb their lives. There are of course Palestinians that are reasoned and humane and in fact, many Arabs would agree that the Palestinians once given an equal opportunity to show it will demonstrate that they are among the smartest of Arabs if not the smartest.

        I brought up the issue of RoR to say that a few Jews here don’t seem to really care about the Palestinians as much as they are letting on and in being on DJ’s case. I may have missed past discussions on it since I’m new here. As to DJ’s violent language, I was probably the first to say that I didn’t like it but I’m starting to get annoyed about talk of barring him and I’m starting to feel it’s the other stuff he’s saying that is bothering them. But I’m all for his stopping his violent talk.

      • Donald
        June 4, 2010, 6:41 am

        ” As to DJ’s violent language, I was probably the first to say that I didn’t like it but I’m starting to get annoyed about talk of barring him and I’m starting to feel it’s the other stuff he’s saying that is bothering them. ”

        Well, you’d be dead wrong. But feel free to start to feel anything and make baseless accusations.

      • Walid
        June 4, 2010, 6:48 am

        Donald, the reprimand for preaching violence was correct and due; debatable was the sermon on the mount explaining why. I had the same reaction as Homer when I read it eventhough I agreed fully with your message about the violence.

      • Donald
        June 4, 2010, 6:59 am

        “I had the same reaction as Homer when I read it eventhough I agreed fully with your message about the violence.”

        People engage in sermonizing here every day, you and me included, usually about the moral hypocrisy of Zionists. The only objection I’ve seen to that (which I admit is a good one) is that sermonizing aimed at Witty, for instance, just consumes thread space and helps him hijack the blog. Now if you said that to me, that by responding to dj I’m helping him hijack the blog, I’d have to agree with you. In fact I’ll pre-empt and admit it.

        You could also say I’m too longwinded and I’d concede that, though no more so than some others. But I like long comments, sometimes. Taste varies.

      • Donald
        June 4, 2010, 7:00 am

        If you feel sympathy for dj, though, I totally disagree for reasons put forth in my “sermon”.

      • Homer
        June 4, 2010, 7:50 am

        Donald, thanks for the long response. I hope you are not too offended by the “self-righteous” jibe. I don’t disagree with any of your substantive remarks. I myself have asked decentjew several times to desist from any calls to violence, or the like. That’s partly because I want to be able to read the other kinds of things he has to say.

        Maybe you and I see decentjew, as a Jew, differently. I am not Jewish, and my guess is that you are not either (correct me if you wish). I think it is quite likely that he feels profound pain about Israel and that it is intense. The fact (and I accept it as fact) that he is Jewish makes his pain all the more poignant for me, and all the more meaningful (Shmuel would seem to understand that point). Accordingly, I don’t see him as someone on the sidelines, with no skin in the game. His intense pain over Israel is precisely what I want American Jews in general to feel – until there is a just peace with the Palestinians and true democracy in Israel.

        As for myself. as an American, I don’t think I have been an innocent bystander either. I’m partly responsible for the deplorable situation of the Palestinians.

      • Walid
        June 4, 2010, 7:52 am

        “… You could also say I’m too longwinded and I’d concede that, though no more so than some others. But I like long comments, sometimes. Taste varies”

        I’m equally guilty of it. I don’t mind Witty although his monotonous blandness reminds me somewhat of Finkelstein when he talks and they both drive me up a wall but his presence here and that of Yonira, Rachel and others is important.

      • decentjew
        June 4, 2010, 7:58 am

        It is interesting that in all of these online discussions, the Palestinian commenters (in my experience) tend to be among the most reasoned and humane, and it is non-Palestinian taggers-on who blather on about glorious “martyrdom” (of others) and killing (by others) of civilians in the name of “the cause”

        Shmuel June 4, 2010 at 12:58 am

        Have you ever stopped to consider the fact that thousands of Palestinians who don’t happen to meet your high standards of “reasonableness” are not able to comment here, because they are either rotting in Israel’s prisons and torture chambers or are living underground because they have been targeted for liquidation?

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 8:04 am

        Have you ever stopped to consider the fact that thousands of Palestinians who don’t happen to meet your high standards of “reasonableness” are not able to comment here, because they are either rotting in Israel’s prisons and torture chambers or are living underground because they have been targeted for liquidation?

        Once or twice, man. Once or twice.

      • decentjew
        June 4, 2010, 8:56 am

        shmuel,

        I’m sorry for the way things have gone here, which I certainly bear some, but not all responsibility for. What I object to is the degree to which this has become personalized. I can take harsh criticism and nasty comments or being called ‘indecentjew’ and I can dish it out as well but I really don’t think any of this is about me at all. It should be about what has happened to the Palestinians and what is happening. The situation has been shot through with terrible violence from the very beginning. We all want it to end. I never saw attacks on Israel or suicide bombings as central to some thesis of mine and they are certainly not an obsession, as some seem intent on believing. They are a part of the landscape of this tragedy and however emotionally fraught the topic is, I had hoped it could be discussed, debated. I can already just about anticipate Donald’s response and his keen interest in distorting what I have to say. These tit for tat exchanges are a bore to the other members. I haven’t any interest in continuing them.

        I’d like to thank homer for his comments, which I think are perceptive and show at least some effort to understand where I’m coming from.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 9:13 am

        DJ,

        The issue of violence in a liberation struggle is definitely an important one that cannot simply be dismissed. I think you made two mistakes here (If I may): 1. You raised it by taking the most extreme position possible; 2. This really is not the place for such discussions, for a number of (what I think are) obvious reasons.

        If you have not read Mandela’s Statement from the dock at the Rivonia trial, I suggest you do so. His is, of course, not the final word on the subject, but he gives a lot of food for thought.

      • Donald
        June 4, 2010, 10:04 am

        “As for myself. as an American, I don’t think I have been an innocent bystander either. I’m partly responsible for the deplorable situation of the Palestinians.”

        I’m American –non-Jewish, but Christian Zionism was part of the air I breathed where I grew up, though I don’t think the phrase was used then or I hadn’t heard it. I agree that we’re responsible, as we are also responsible for quite a few other killings around the world.

        I don’t take dj’s justification for killing seriously for reasons I’ve gone through and won’t repeat. And while I could understand and excuse his position from someone who was, say, 15 years old, from an adult it is, well, adolescent.

      • decentjew
        June 4, 2010, 10:33 am

        shmuel

        I don’t agree with your post (surprise surprise) but won’t belabor the issue.

        As to Mandela, it is still unclear to me exactly how he managed to navigate the situation in South Africa to a non-violent resolution, and I’ve read a bit about it. It’s really a borderline miracle, owing in part I believe, to the fact that Mandela is probably some kind of off-the-charts genius, one of the most extraordinary statesmen in history.

        The many similarities between the plight of South African blacks and Arab Palestinians however, should not blind us to the many dissimilarities between these struggles. The mechanisms of subjugation in the Occupied Territories are far more sophisticated. South Africa was never the sort of lavishly funded offshore military base for the United States that Israel is. We never had such an unbreakable special relationship with South Africa and when their behavior became too great a liability, it wasn’t so hard for the US to disengage from their white supremacist regime. We haven’t a large, ultra-wealthy Afrikaner elite in the US barking orders to our Congress, and on and on.

        There is much to learn from the SA struggle but we should not intoxicate ourselves with these comparisons and assume strategies that ultimately freed the black South Africans are viable in the mid east situation. This needs a lot of thought. Every time we (appropriately) use the term apartheid, to refer to conditions faced by the Palestinians, we run a certain risk of getting carried away with the association. This is natural, as we would all hope that the trajectory of the struggle will be similar, and reach the same euphoric conclusion through the same strategies. I find this sadly unlikely for some of the reasons I’ve outlined and many many more.

      • Taxi
        June 4, 2010, 10:41 am

        decentjew feel exactly like ALL my Lebanese friends do.

        I have no argument with them.

      • demize
        June 4, 2010, 10:45 am

        OK. I just wanted to jump in here to say I need to cogitate on this a bit more. I am more sympathetic to DJ’s line of thinking, I am a bit uncomfortable with some of what seem like “kneejerk” requests for banning. I think we are at an impasse, when passive resistance is being met with abject brutalitty. There is obviously no deterent for them to continue to up the violence on activists and heir subject population. A paramilitary response should not be discarded from the realm of discussion out of hand. DJ’s anger is something I empathise with on a viscereal level. I am very uncomfortable with the “it will reflect badly on the movt” train of thought. I’m not sure how will be the arbiter of those boundries. I’m an Anarchist so this collective manor of community self policing is appealing to me, as long as no single person is afforded more weight than others for reasons such as charisma, longevity on the blog, etc. One of the main reasons I started posting here regularly was because of the quality of just these sort of “meta-converations” that took place. I remember on with the poster “Cliff” that I was very impressed with some time ago. That fact that DJ is being directly confrontational is useful, unlike the masturbatory responses to Witty which are just gratuitous in my opinion.

      • Miss Dee Mena
        June 4, 2010, 11:03 am

        FW de Klerk the then SA prime minister was also part of the formula. He realised that South Africa couldn’t continue on the way it was going because the country would reach a state of total civil war. The sanctions were biting hard, unrest was rife. He had the basic brains to realise he had to release Mandela and negotiate for the country’s survival. Netanyahu appears to lack even a modicum of common sense in addition to his other qualities of weakness, arrogance and taking the US for granted.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 11:27 am

        DJ,

        I was not suggesting a complete analogy, just that Mandela’s words from 40-odd years ago on the use of violence – how, how much, against whom, what about the aftermath, etc. – are worth contemplating. Mandela is indeed one amazing man. I believe, any discussion of the use of violence in a liberation struggle must take those words into account.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 11:32 am

        MDM,

        The statement I was referring to was from the Rivonia trial (1964) – a time when the SA government was as intractable and violent as all hell. The eventual outcome may have been (relatively) non-violent, but there was plenty of blood along the way – some of it spilled by the ANC and other liberation movements, and it wasn’t all sabotage and empty government offices either.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 11:51 am

        Demize,

        How sympathetic are you to DJ’s line of reasoning? Are we talking sabotage and military targets? Are we talking shooting qassams into the air, not knowing where they’ll fall, or are we talking blowing up buses or trains full of civilians, or ice cream parlours, or kindergartens? Feel free not to answer if you’re worried about Homeland Security, or whatever they call it where you live. There are of course major qualitative differences between these various “options”.

        Back to Mandela again. Israeli Jews are not going to disappear. Even after a bloody all-out-war, on the off chance that the revolution has been successful, if any kind of peace and stability is ever going to be achieved, Palestinians and (by then former) Israeli Jews are going to have to live together. How do you think that will be accomplished if the Palestinian struggle goes back to the 70s or the 90s – but 1,000 times worse (or better, if that’s the way your fantasies run) – and Israeli oppression and terror multiplies accordingly, or by whatever factor you can dream up in your nightmares?

        So violence of some kind may have its place, but it also has its price, on many different levels.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:02 pm

        Taxi,

        Once you and your friends get past the understandable rage and desire for revenge, what’s the plan? Glorious mujahedeen marching to Al-Aqsa doesn’t seem to be on the cards. The Euros and other western allies will back away from the large-scale killing of non-combatants faster than you can say bil ruh, bil damm, afdeek ya falasteen. And don’t expect any help from Arab dictators either. Oh, and yok Turks too. Revolution is so pure, and the eggs are just eggs, but intelligent people, outraged by the ongoing Palestinian nakba, have got to come up with something better. Unless of course, they too are willing to fight the Sayuni down to the last Palestinian.

      • Danaa
        June 4, 2010, 12:04 pm

        Taxi, the sentiments expressed by DJ are recognizable far and wide, but the actions recommended are still reprehensible. I think we should all exercise some caution in letting forth the vehemence and revulsion we all feel. If only because we don’t know who is behind most comments and Mondoweiss is being carefully watched. Nothing the powers that be want more than to discredit the struggle to which this blog is a witness.

      • Danaa
        June 4, 2010, 12:21 pm

        Shmuel, re your and others’ take on DJ, I’d like to put in a word of caution – as I said to Taxi above. My warning lights started blinking when I read a few of his posts in the past couple of days. Little things that don’t line up properly when it comes to the tenor and consistency of DJ’s posts, especially when coupled with the moniker.

        my issue is simple: why would anyone with the adjective “decent” in his handle (it’s for sure, a “he”) advocate bombing ice cream parlors as a proper response to acts of mayhem-by-piracy carried out by highly trained commandos? anger aside, wouldn’t the Israelis-and-apologists like more than anything else to be back in the bona fide victim’s seat? wouldn’t they like it best if those who speak out for human rights were shown to have violent impulses?

        Of course, I like it that you and others take DJ on, but there’ll always be some who’ll egg the sentiments he expresses. Fighting back is as natural as living. But posters like DJ – reasonable one minute, inciting counter-productive reactions the next, make me suspicious.

        Anyways, your arguments are, as always, both cogent and much needed, given the level of fury out there. Keep it up.

      • decentjew
        June 4, 2010, 12:24 pm

        Many here would like to brand me a fanatic. But a fanatic has set, unwavering ideas about a topic. The truth is, what people seem to find disturbing is that I don’t have set ideas about terrorism and refuse to establish my so-called moral credentials by expressing comforting platitudes.

        Shmuel might say (and I’d not trying to put words in his mouth–perhaps I’m wrong) that the US has engaged on occasion in acts of terrorism and that he finds these reprehensible. At any rate, that seems to be a pretty standard leftist sentiment. I think it’s a mischaracterization. Terrorism is an integral part of US policy. It is not some outlandish exception to the rule, it is the rule. It saturates our dealings with the world.

        These matters are never simple. Look–I could imagine an army in wartime saying “hey, just because their soldiers are shooting at us and killing our soldiers, it doesn’t mean we have to shoot and kill theirs. Aren’t these human beings with wives, children, families too? Let us not sink to this level!”

        You may think I’m mocking such an approach but quite the contrary. I think the argument of such an imaginary army is not only valiant, but airtight. Aren’t we at the end of the day really all civilians?

        Soldier? Civilian? Surely there is a great difference?

        Does the IDF soldier who finishes the job of bombing a hospital become a civilian when he goes home, strips into gym shorts and heads for the beach?

        The US killed over 100,000 Iraqi soldiers on the infamous ‘highway of death’ at the end of Desert Storm. After all, they were wearing Iraqi military fatigues and driving Iraqi military vehicles. Let’s just leave out the part about them being terrified conscripts forced into battle by a lunatic dictator. That would muddy the waters a bit and we can’t have that, because right is right and wrong is wrong.

        One can always achieve a soothing moral clarity in any situation, providing he is willing to impose it on the situation. I’m not so sure it exists a priori.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:29 pm

        DJ,
        Yes, you are putting words in my mouth. As for your argument ad absurdum, international humanitarian law provides some good guidelines.

      • demize
        June 4, 2010, 12:29 pm

        Shmuel, First I’m not advocating violence of any sort. I’m merley saying that the discussion of its utility in a Liberation struggle should not be verbotten. However, I think civilian targets should be a morally repugnant thought to any struggle I would be part of. There are more than enough Military installations in the The OT. And Israel proper, political targets. Of course the “legitemate” use of violence will always rest with “The State” only public opinion and non compliance would make that not so. Also “The State” will always have surperior weaponry, only a dedicated cadre and poular movement would counter that imbalance. I would also like to say I would never be so presumptious to advocate for anything I wasn’t willing to put my own body into. So let’s take this as an intellectual excercise. The fact that Israel now sees no tactically responsive difference between armed struggle and non violent resistence is something that should be taken into account. I think Irish Republican response to British colonialism in The North has been sorely overlooked as a possible template. Id like to here more from DJ on what he thinks at this point.

      • Psychopathic god
        June 4, 2010, 12:30 pm

        I don’t see how DJ’s initial post suggesting violent means be implemented is anything more than fleshing out everything that is involved in the statement, “fight them over there so we won’t have to fight them over here.”

        Americans of all stripes repeated this as if it were pleasing to god. it was patriotic. it was the right thing to say, and do.

        what’s different now?

        was it ok to fight them over there when ‘them’ were Muslims, but not ok when ‘them’ are Jewish?

      • decentjew
        June 4, 2010, 12:36 pm

        What does international humanitarian law have to say about the killing of retreating Iraqi soldiers? This was a gigantic massacre, far exceeding all the anti-state terrorism in history and it was barely a blip on the radar in terms of US terrorism.

        Easy for us to find shelter under the umbrella of so-called international law, which hasn’t protected any presumed enemy of the US or Israel from being blown to pieces without any recourse whatsoever.

        I don’t have a new system to impose, shmuel. Yours however has been a dreadful failure and it would be helpful for you to acknowledge that.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:38 pm

        Thanks, Danaa. I’m not a big fan of agent provocateur theories, and DJ strikes me as sincere, albeit somewhat off his rocker (or adolescent, as Donald suggested). I’m willing to hear and discuss just about anything he would like to bring up, but will report him and eventually welcome his banning if he continues to advocate war crimes and crimes against humanity.

        Then again, you’re the expert “ferret” (a noble undervalued animal) here, and I have often been accused of deficiency in the suspicion department.

      • Taxi
        June 4, 2010, 12:40 pm

        Shmuel & Danaa.

        One doesn’t win a war purely on testosterone rage-logic.

        You win a war because you’re clear headed, striking when you need to and retreating when you need to.

        It’s impossible to take ‘violence’ out of the equation of war. As it is profoundly unjust to ‘control’ or institutionalize the measure of the victim’s legitimate grievance.

        War is coming, not because I want it to, but because all the ingredients are there.

        decentjew’s feelings are common these days and indicate an abundance of the ‘will’ to war among the global consensus – a paramount ingredient in the buildup to war.

        I don’t like it, but it’s there as an indicator – it is not a crime in itself.

      • decentjew
        June 4, 2010, 12:41 pm

        ok..so we’re back to that crap again?

        Fine. You’ve exposed me. I work for the Israeli consulate.

        ..way to dodge my question too, shmuel.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:50 pm

        I don’t have a new system to impose, shmuel. Yours however has been a dreadful failure and it would be helpful for you to acknowledge that.

        I’m not talking about what ensures success. You asked questions about who is a combatant. I answered that IHL provides some good guidelines. If you’re looking for defence of US actions from me, you’re looking in the wrong place, but Israel is not the US. Israel is still a vulnerable, shitty little country. IHL and BDS have a lot to offer in Israel’s case, that would (sadly) be unthinkable in the case of the US. And in Israel’s case the US pretence of fair-play and democracy can and should be exploited to the hilt.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:52 pm

        What was the question, DJ?

      • Psychopathic god
        June 4, 2010, 1:07 pm

        I know Joachim Martillo is not appreciated on this forum; I like him, he’s provocative.
        He’s also practical: he suggests targeting people like Stuart Levey — mentioned Levey nearly a year before the creature was spotlighted on any significant blog like this one.

        Martillo suggests one other strategy, NOT a violent one but a decapitation strategy: seize the assets of the major zionist billionaires who enable zionism — ie. Adelson pumps up Netanyahu such that Netanyahu actually thinks he amounts to something more than a pile of excrement.

        I think it’s a brilliant strategy.

        link to eaazi.blogspot.com

      • ddi
        June 4, 2010, 1:13 pm

        An interesting quote from a recent Haaretz op-ed

        Recently an intelligence official actually called the absence of Palestinian terror a “propaganda problem”‏
        link to haaretz.com

        So, decentjew, in light of this, what exactly do you think that massacring Israeli civilians will accomplish for the Palestinian cause?

      • demize
        June 4, 2010, 1:13 pm

        Shmuel I further replied to you downthread. I hit reply, God only knows why it went down there.

  19. thankgodimatheist
    June 3, 2010, 6:15 pm

    He’s of Turkish origin isn’t he? Why should they care?

  20. lysias
    June 3, 2010, 6:28 pm

    Richard Silverstein’s take on the four bullets: 19 Year-Old Turkish-American Killed by IDF in Gaza Flotilla Attack:

    You know what those four bullets were–the kill shot. It’s a well-known practice of Israeli commandos and covert ops personnel. You shoot the victim and then close in for the shot to the head that finishes them off. Yes, I wasn’t there and can’t confirm with absolute certainty that this is indeed what happened. And lest anyone protest about my characterization I have accounts by IDF personnel about this practice and testimony about specific incidents in which it happened. An autopsy should confirm and disprove what I’ve written.

    Barack Obama, do you let U.S. citizens be murdered in cold blood by the IDF? What will you do about this? If this were any other country I’d know what to expect: protest, redoubled efforts to end the Gaza siege, engagement with Israel, possibly withdrawing the U.S. ambassador. That’s what Britain would likely do, as it’s already had the moxie to demand an end to the siege, something our government hasn’t had the courage to do. This incident should bring our policy a lot closer to Turkey’s as we clearly now have shared interests. But will it?

    But given the timidity of this government, I don’t know what they’ll do aside from murmuring a bit about it. Face it, our policy is shameful. Dogan’s dead body serves as physical witness to this. Will it spur Obama on to do the right thing–or anything? Your guess is as good as mine.

    • thankgodimatheist
      June 3, 2010, 8:59 pm

      Silverstein is saying that Dogan is “perhaps” the first American to be killed by the IKF (K for killing)..!!! I don’t think he was living in a cave but one really wonders! Hadn’t he ever heard of Rachel Corrie to name just one? What about the 34 sailors of the USS Liberty?

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 10:24 pm

        silverstein is not terribly bright.

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 10:48 pm

        “silverstein is not terribly bright.”

        I don’t know about that. I’m suspecting something like ignorance of basic facts. Many Americans have been killed by the IKF. He should be advised of it. Maybe dropping a comment on his post is the way to go .

      • decentjew
        June 3, 2010, 11:06 pm

        Don’t correct Silverstein. He won’t tolerate it. Despite being wrong 98% of the time, he’s convinced he’s infallible.

      • thankgodimatheist
        June 3, 2010, 11:09 pm

        “Don’t correct Silverstein”

        Too late..

    • potsherd
      June 4, 2010, 11:08 am

      I can’t find it now, but earlier this morning, Haaretz had a piece on the commando action, and it stated that one of the commandos, unnamed, was being considered for a medal for taking control of the situation and single-handedly accounting for most of the deaths to protesters.

      This would seem likely to be our executioner.

      Can anyone find this piece?

    • lysias
      June 4, 2010, 11:37 am

      Isn’t this how the first Mossad murder in the movie Munich takes place (the translator in Rome)? First, a shot to bring the guy down, then the murderer empties his chamber into the guy’s head.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 12:06 pm

        Isn’t this how the first Mossad murder in the movie Munich takes place (the translator in Rome)?

        OMG, not a translator in Rome :-O

  21. RoHa
    June 3, 2010, 6:51 pm

    “Can the Israeli government kill Americans with impunity?”

    Sure they can. Don’t ask stupid questions.

    Lavon affair.
    USS Liberty.
    US troops in Lebanon. (Harassed, and probably Israel was behind the barracks bombing.)
    Rachel Corrie.

    I don’t know whehter or not Israel was behind 911, and I’m not going to waste time arguing for it. You can add it to your list if you want.

  22. J Crow
    June 3, 2010, 7:39 pm

    I don’t know if this has been mentioned yet or not, but four in the head doesn’t happen to a person who is resisting in any way, at all. Who is moving, running, swinging a weapon, waving his hands, doing anything but sitting still, or sleeping.

    Four in the head is an execution.

  23. annie
    June 3, 2010, 10:00 pm

    mondoweiss hits vanity fair

    by james wolcott

    Paul Woodward at Mondoweiss asks a pertinent question:

    “Can the Israeli government kill Americans with impunity?”

    For several days, Israel has been able to contain some of the fallout from the flotilla massacre by withholding information about the dead and injured. The object of this exercise has clearly been to slow the flow of information in the hope that by the time the most damning facts become known, the international media’s attention will have turned elsewhere.

    But the dead now have names and faces and one turns out to be a nineteen-year-old American: Furkan Dogan.

    Dogan is alleged to have been shot with five bullets, four in the head.

    I’m not a trained commando, unlike so many others with blogs to their names, but four shots to the head strikes me as possibly a trifle de trop.

    And also at Mondoweiss, Naomi Klein records the horrible irony of another American, an art student at Cooper Union named Emily Henchowicz, losing an eye after being shot with a tear gas canister reportedly fired directly at her head by Israeli Border Police.

    I haven’t checked and will spare myself the effort, but I wouldn’t be surprised if a few of the right blogosphere’s irrepressible jesters aren’t already cracking jokes about this young activist’s half-blinding.

    After all, seven years after the death of 23-year-old activist Rachel Corrie, one of wingnuttia’s favorite cartoonists still finds it droll to use her corpse as the set-up for a smirking punch-line, Rachel Corrie being then as now little more to them than a stupid bitch who deserved bulldozing.

  24. lysias
    June 3, 2010, 10:18 pm

    Looks like a Turkish corvette may now be stationed off Gaza.

    Commenter on a Hürriyet forum says the following:

    Guest – Yannis – Greece

    2010-06-03 19:18:49

    Right now a Turkish patrol ship (probably a corvette ) reached the international waters just off gaza.

    link to hurriyetdailynews.com

    Quite a man, that Erdogan!

    Although, after the PKK attack on the Turkish naval base at Iskenderun two hours before the Israeli attack on the flotilla, one of which was almost certainly coordinated with the other, I imagine the Turkish Navy itself is now quite eager to stick it to the Israelis.

  25. lysias
    June 3, 2010, 10:20 pm

    Sorry for the bad formatting.

    “Right now a Turkish patrol ship (probably a corvette ) reached the international waters just off gaza” was of course part of the quote.

  26. munro
    June 3, 2010, 10:27 pm

    The last time I recall such crude Israeli propaganda was during the siege of the Church of the Nativity in Nazareth just before the Iraq War.
    link to en.wikipedia.org
    IMO the Israelis don’t care about undermining Turkey’s support for Iran sanctions because they don’t want sanctions, they want war.

  27. hayate
    June 3, 2010, 11:14 pm

    “Can the Israeli government kill Americans with impunity?”

    Depends how many they kill, and who they kill. If they off an oligarch, there might be a gang war. ;D

    Furkan Dogan was obviously the victim of a hit. When the mossad hit someone, with a gun, they are taught to empty a magazine into the victim, minus a couple of rounds for any bystanders who might become a problem. The israeli military death squads are probably taught the same thing. There was a story going around that an israeli hit list was lost by an israeli soldier attacking and found by the Turks. Seems questionable given questions about how it could have been forwarded from the convoy once the israelis took over. It is quite clear the israelis did intend to kill people from the outset, whether there was a hit list or not, though.

  28. Saleema
    June 3, 2010, 11:52 pm

    What happened to Richard Witty? Where the hell is he at? Not that I enjoy reading his hypocrisy but I am wondering what kind of excuse will he make for the Israelis this time.

    Crawl out of your hole, Witty. For once, I truly am interested in hearing what you are going to blather about on this one.

    • Chaos4700
      June 4, 2010, 12:01 am

      Forget it, Witty is off burying his in the sand. Right between the shallow graves containing his dignity and his integrity.

  29. Avi
    June 4, 2010, 12:25 am

    Right between the shallow graves containing his dignity and his integrity.

    You have a way with words, Chaos ;)

    • Chaos4700
      June 4, 2010, 12:27 am

      I suppose I should take pride in the fact that my wordcraft is unimpeded by my rage.

  30. hayate
    June 4, 2010, 5:21 am

    Detailed Compiled Eyewitness Accounts Confirm Cold-Blooded Murder and Executions by Israeli Military

    by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya

    link to globalresearch.ca

    At the bottom of the piece, he also gathered up many links to survivor accounts of the israeli terrorist pirate attack. A couple dozen different accounts from interviews published around the world. What these people describe is pure barbarism on the part of the israelis.

    • Walid
      June 4, 2010, 5:43 am

      Good article and links, Hayate.

      • Walid
        June 4, 2010, 7:58 am

        Now I’ve heard it from 3 sources about “bodies being dumped into the sea”. We’ll have to wait for the final head and body counts to see if any are missing to see if these were just nasty rumours.

      • hayate
        June 5, 2010, 2:16 am

        I had wondered why such a discrepancy in the number of people murdered and wounded. I’m still waiting to hear that everybody alive has been released and the murdered are all accounted for. I have not heard that yet.

      • hayate
        June 5, 2010, 2:11 am

        Thanks

  31. demize
    June 4, 2010, 12:41 pm

    I should also add Israeli elite and public opinion doesn’t seem to meke much of a distinction between soldier and civilian. For example, and any Israelis or ex-pats please correct me, Gilad Shalit is viewed as a victim of Kidnapping not a POW, when resistance to agression in Lebanon was encountered the fighters were labled “terrorists” in the press. Its more or less they; always acting illegally, we; always acting under color of authority.

    • sherbrsi
      June 4, 2010, 12:44 pm

      Israel only applies labels to further its own agenda. I wouldn’t get too involved in their reasoning or application; much of them being used solely for the purpose of making Israel the victim party.

      • Shmuel
        June 4, 2010, 1:20 pm

        I agree with sherbsi. It’s their twisted logic for their twisted reasons. No need to even go there – except to point out its fallacies and inconsistencies, when necessary.

  32. demize
    June 4, 2010, 12:51 pm

    That should have been part of the above discussion. The reply system baffles me, but I’m not that smart.

  33. shiningstardavid
    November 16, 2011, 2:01 pm

    play with fire and you get burned. go to places you shouldn’t go and you assume the risks involved. i travel a lot. been to many countries and i know that each time i go to a dangerous place, these things can happen. still? i’ll happily take the experiences over the risks but i also KNOW there are risks!!!!

  34. DBG
    November 16, 2011, 2:37 pm

    Mods, something is messed up here, looks like this whole page got ed. if someone’s HTML is wrong, does it screw up everything on the page?

  35. pabelmont
    November 16, 2011, 2:58 pm

    If I write \ and then write \ , what happens? [not what I wrote!]
    Hmmm. Seems thqat bad HTML is screened out. Good!

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